Sitting Bull: His Life and Legacy by Ernie LaPointe (Part Two) w/Tom Libby & Jesan Sorrells

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Hello, my name is Jesan Sorrells, and this is the

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Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast, episode number

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157.

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So today we are going to pick up where

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we left off from our previous episode and we

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are going to be discussing. We’re going

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to be rounding out our conversation that we were having, Tom Levy and I,

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that we were having around the the Book

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and the Life of Sitting Bull by

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Ernie lapointe. Now, if you haven’t listened to

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part one of this episode, it was recorded, gosh,

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close to a year ago now, right, Tom? That’s probably less.

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Yeah, maybe a little bit less. Might be nine months to a year ago,

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where we covered the first part of Sitting Bull, his life and

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legacy. We talked about who Sitting Bull was. We talked about

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his wives and his children. We talked about the challenges

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of bringing in a second wife into.

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Into the living situation, into the living environment the

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Sitting Bull was faced with. And we also talked about

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the nature of how Sitting Bull became a man

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and came into his manhood as a warrior in

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the. Correct me when I’m wrong,

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Tom. Lakota tribe. Correct. Correct. Yes.

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Excellent. From the

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home, Papa. Thank you. Yes, that’s right. Yes. I had to pull it

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deep from the recesses of my fertile mind.

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I kind of have a lot going on there lately. So.

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So we were going to pick up our conversation around. Around

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Sitting Bull and we’re going to pick up

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with challenges as to.

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To. Not

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good enough of a word. It’s not really

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challenges. It’s more like his interactions. His

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battles. Interactions is too low key a word too. His

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battles with the United States Cavalry and the

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removal of the Lakota people

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from the West. So we’re going to pick up with that. Talk about that

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today. Tom, I know it’s been a while since we talked about

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this. Is there anything that we need to refresh the folks on

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as I pick a spot to land on in this book?

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No, I don’t think so. I mean, I think

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as we talk about, as we go through the

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different topics that you’re looking to like, for example, you know, for example, with his,

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you know, his interactions with the US Cavalry and stuff like that, we can. There’s

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probably bits and pieces in there that people are probably going to want to

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know about a little bit more detail or possibly even go research on their own.

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Because I, I’m assuming that there’s no singular

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piece of content that is gonna. Is gonna be perfectly complete. So I’m. I’m

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assuming there are certain things that you can either fact checked or,

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or. Or look at from a different perspective, especially in that. In

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that arena. And then the second part would be toward the end of his life.

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And what. I don’t know if we’re going to get there today, but like how

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his life actually ended. And there’s a lot of speculation and

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firsthand accounts of the situation and things like that and the

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immediate aftermath, things like that. Some of those things, again, depending

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on who you ask or which piece of content you read, they come at it

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from a little bit different perspective. But the interesting thing about this particular

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book, again, just to remind everybody that the person who wrote this book was

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his great grandson. Like, this is a direct line to him, which

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means this person’s mother

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was her. It was her grandfather. Like, so some of these things

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she heard firsthand from him, and she might have even been present

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at the. At the time, you know, of his. Of his. Of his

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demise. So, you know, again, the. I think this is

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probably going to be the closest you can get to viewing it from his eyes.

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Coming direct from descendants to descendants. And the way that

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oral history is managed throughout the Native community,

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it. It is. It’s. It’s very sacred. So

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you’re not allowed to tell. To retell a story

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until the person that tells you is satisfied that you’re telling it

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properly. So that’s how that you control the narrative going

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from generation to generation. So I’m assuming that I make the

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assumption, and I would hesitate that anybody in our community

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would not make the assumption, but so most of us would make the assumption that

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these stories are as legitimate or as close to legitimate as you can

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possibly find. So. And

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not to leapfrog ahead and no, but.

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And I do recall

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that there has or there was some

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controversy, conflict, disagreement about who gets to

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tell this story and why.

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I do recall that Mr. Lapointe

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had some

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conflicts and challenges, to say the least, around. Around writing

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this story down and around documenting it in

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the way that he heard it, which

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goes along with the preservation of an oral narrative.

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And then sort of the. I guess lack of a better term would be

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resistance maybe to writing it down,

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which. And I think we talked a little bit about this in our last

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episode. To me, from

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my. From my perspective, and it is a. It is a. Is

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a Western perspective.

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If you don’t write it down, did it really happen?

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Because once people are dead, you know that the people who are alive

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get to sort of shape the narrative. But I don’t think that

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that’s. I don’t think that’s a similarly Held, you know, idea

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across, across different groups. Right. And I essentially don’t think that

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that’s a group, an idea held by Native

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American groups at all or perspective held by them at all.

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So there’s a,

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a challenge of veracity maybe. I don’t know. I don’t, I

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don’t know. I don’t, I don’t understand that, you know, to, to, to your

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point. But I know that I do remember that that was something that,

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that in my research around Ernie Lapointe and

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around him writing the, the story of Sitting

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Bull that was brought up,

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you know, and that was, that was excavated, you know, does this person have the

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right to tell the story? Does he have the right to write it down? Should

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he have documented it? Who gets to say those kinds

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of things? Sometimes, sometimes pop up or do, or have popped up around

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this, around this narrative. So, yeah,

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and I would imagine, and I haven’t done any research

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specifically about that topic of why he should

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or shouldn’t or who would put up roadblocks to him writing this or why they

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would or wouldn’t. But I would imagine that the list

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of Native people trying to stop him from writing this

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was probably short. If he was getting pushback from writing

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this. It. To your point about the, the, you know, is there any

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way to validate this? There’s no validating documentation. That sounds to me

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like a very white centric thing. So maybe a publisher

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and maybe somebody like that that was probably putting up some roadblocks, maybe

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histor. Very often historians,

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archaeologists, anthropologists, people who think they know better because

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it’s their area of study. I could see them putting

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up some roadblocks or some fight about him writing this, but I think it would

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be, and, and if there were Native people fighting

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it, it would be more in the lines of, you shouldn’t write

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that down because they don’t deserve to be reading it. Not because the story

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isn’t true or that he needs to validate it with any of us as to

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whether it should or shouldn’t be sorry. Whether it, whether the

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stories are truthful enough to be written down

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or like that would have never happened from our side of the coin. But I

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could see if a Native person was restrict, was

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hesitant about him writing this down because they wouldn’t think that

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the general population or the Eurocentric

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communities that are outside of the Native community would be

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worthy to read it because it is our, our history

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that we tell on our side of the coin. Right. So it’s, and again,

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it’s, it’s that whole adage of, you know, there’s three

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sides to every story, right? His, hers, and the truth. And in these cases,

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there’s also. There’s three sides to the story. It’s not. It’s not his, hers in

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the truth, but it’s the. The winner, the loser in the truth. Right. So

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the victory is usually the person. The victor is usually the one writing

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the history books, but that doesn’t always tell the whole story.

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So in this case, again, where the pushback may be is that this story

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is written from one singular perspective, but

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the person writing it. That’s why it’s coming from one

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singular perspective. It’s from their perspective. Right. It’s from the right. So

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it’s that. That’s the whole point of it. We’re not trying to. We’re not trying

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to argue, again, going back to, you know, things that could or could

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bet the best one so far, not the best one, but there’s

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a lot of what. There’s a lot

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of stories that are.

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There’s no way to validate them as to who. Who actually killed

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Custer. Right. We know when it happened. There are certain facts of

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the case. If you were a historical detective, there are facts of

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the case that he was, you know, alive on this day, he died on this

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day, and that there was a battle, and that the battle was between A and

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B side, whatever, all this factual information there. But when you look

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at who actually pulled the trigger or shot the arrow or

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however you want to talk about it, there’s a

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lot of controversy behind that because there have been several people to take credit for

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the kill, the actual kill shot. Right. So.

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And again, like, how do you. So who has

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the right to tell that story? Well, you know, we, like. It’s hard to tell

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because nobody knows who actually pulled the trigger. Whereas certain

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things that happened in, in, in. In Sitting Bull’s

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life, it’s.

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When you’re talking about firsthand account, it’s

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firsthand account. It’s. It’s not an opinion. It’s factual information,

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but it’s, It’s. It’s framed in a

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way that comes from a particular person’s perspective. So

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again, and I go back to one of the reasons we don’t need

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validation or documentation like this is because if you are a

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historian in our community, if you are a storyteller in our community, you are not

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allowed to re. You are not allowed to recite any of those

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stories or those histories in any way, shape or form in public until

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the person teaching you is comfortable that you do it right and that you have

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everything in an order. Like, it has to be the same way they

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say it. If you deviate or if you put in your two cents somewhere,

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then you don’t get permission from your elder or from your teacher to go and

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tell the story. You’re not allowed to do that. So again, if

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you look at his life and the fact that his mother was the direct

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daughter of Sitting Bull and she gives him permission to do this,

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then to me, that says he has permission to do it. Yeah. There’s any reason

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to worry about validation. But. Okay,

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well, let’s. Let’s pick

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up with a meeting

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that was held in. In

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1867. Let’s pick up with that.

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And this is. This is Sitting Bulls meeting. Now, the

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Sitting bowl, just for those of you who are listening, is, for

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lack of a better term, what the Americans call this man.

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And. And his. His Lakota name is

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Tatanka Iotake. Okay? And so

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that is how he is referred to in this. In this writing,

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and that is how he is referred to in the history. Sitting Bull is

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not. Is not how

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the Lakota refer to him. So we’re going to take

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from this. It’s also not a direct translation either, by the way. Okay.

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Not a direct translation either. Okay. Yeah. So if you look up the English firm,

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and I hope I quote this right, and if any of my Lakota

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cousins out there are listening, I apologize if I butcher it a little bit. But

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it’s something to the sense of, like, buffalo. The buffalo bull who

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sits. Right. So it’s like. So the English, when you translate

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that as, oh, that’s a Sitting Bull. So that wasn’t a direct,

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though. So even though. Even though the English we. The English basically renamed

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him. Yeah.

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He didn’t even use the. They didn’t even use the. The direct. The direct

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translation. They just decided to change even the direct translation. So never

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mind. Tatake. This is not like. They didn’t. They.

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Not only did they use. Did they not use his Lakota name, but they just.

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They just decided to call him something else. They decided to call him something else.

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Well, you know, a lot of that happened at Ellis island, too. So, you know,

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is. It goes around. It

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goes around. So, okay, so we’re gonna pick

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up with this chapter. The leader of the Lakota. We’re gonna

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read a few things from this. The encroachment of the white man was

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advancing very quickly, and this worried Four Horns. He decided that

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new leadership was necessary. In 1867, he sent word to all

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the Lakota bands and the other nearby nations requesting a gathering to discuss

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an important matter. There were six Lakota bands, some

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Yanktonai, and a few Cheyenne who responded to his call

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and arrived at the camp at his camp on the lower Powder River.

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By the way, this meeting is described by Dee Brown and Bury my

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Heart ETOV at Wounded Knee. Among

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those who arrived quickly were Crazy Horse and Gaul.

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They were in agreement with Four Horns about the need for new leadership, and they

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understood the urgency of the situation. Four Horns

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began the council by explaining to the chiefs and elders why he believed new leadership

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was required. He said he was advancing in age and a younger

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Wakasa was desired to lead the people. He recommended his nephew,

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Tatanka Iotake, to be chief of the

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Teotunwa Lakota nation. I hope I’m pronouncing that correctly, and I

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apologize if I am not. The council members all agreed with Four Horns that

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Tatanka Iotake was the best choice, for he was advancing,

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advanced in his thinking and actions for one who was

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only 36 years old. They also agreed to the appointment

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of Crazy Horse as the second chief. This was a very significant

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decision. In order to determine the gravity of, or to underline the

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gravity of this action, the Lakota performed a solemn ceremony

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to invest Tatanke Iotake with his new position. Four

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chiefs went to Tatanke Iotake’s teepee and escorted him out. They

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brought a buffalo robe with them and had him sit on it. Then

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they carried him to the council TP for the ceremony. Four

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Horns. Four Horns spoke. He told everyone that the council had

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appointed a new chief and that it was now his responsibility to see

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that the Teotunwa Lakota were fed and defended.

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He told Tatanka Iotake, quote, when you tell us

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to fight, we’ll raise up our weapons. And if you tell us to make peace,

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we will lay down our weapons. We will smoke. We will smoke the

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Kanupa Wakan sacred pipe, so Wakantanka will

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bless our decision. Tatake was given a

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magnificent bow and arrows and a rifle. He was presented with a

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headdress, with a trailer of eagle feathers all the way down his back to the

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ground. Each eagle feather on the headdress represented a coup by the warrior who

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contributed it. Finally, he was given a magnificent white

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00:16:20,600 –> 00:16:23,920
stallion. He was lifted onto its back and led around the camp.

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The warriors from many different societies followed behind, dressed in their finest

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and wearing their eagle feathers proudly.

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Tatanke Iotake was gifted in composing songs. He started to sing as he

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00:16:36,000 –> 00:16:39,840
was led around the camp. He sang this song. I’m going to read the English

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00:16:39,840 –> 00:16:43,630
translation because I do not want to butcher the language. I humble

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00:16:43,630 –> 00:16:46,830
myself when my people speak my name. So said Tatanke

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Iyotake. From the time of the ceremony,

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Tatanke accepted the burden of responsibility for the well being of all his people.

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00:16:54,670 –> 00:16:58,430
The Brulees under Spotted Tail and the Southern Oglalas

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under Red Cloud did not attend the gathering. They refused to recognize

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Hatake Iotake as their chief. Now

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this leads into the battle at, at

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Arrow Creek, which apparently started at, at

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Rosebud River. And,

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and there was a, there was a battle there

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that basically

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a two days battle, a big battle that basically pulled in

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a lot of warriors

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right from the surrounding tribes, right?

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00:17:36,700 –> 00:17:39,580
And the Lakota

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were watching the laying of the Northern Pacific Railroad

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and the planning of that, that rail mine through Montana

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Territory into Dakota Territory. And the railroad had sent

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surveyors to identify and locate the best route possible,

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00:17:55,980 –> 00:17:59,820
along with a military escort of 500 men out of Fort Ellis under the

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00:17:59,820 –> 00:18:03,440
command of Major Eugene M. Baker. And the surveyors

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knew they were in the heart of the Lakota territory, but they felt safe near

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00:18:06,960 –> 00:18:10,720
with the military escort and they established

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00:18:10,720 –> 00:18:14,320
a camp near Arrow Creek. Now,

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once they established the camp, of course the Lakota were

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watching them and tracking them and were paying attention to

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what they were doing, by the way.

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Pause. I’m currently reading Empire of the Summer Moon.

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And the Comanche were experts at this.

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Comanche were experts at this. We’re going to bring that

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book to the podcast coming up here in a few months and

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some fascinating things. As a person who, who lives,

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who lives in Texas now, I won’t say where, but I live in Texas where

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a lot of Comanche were. 1 Once Upon a time running around here. And

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it’s just, it’s really interesting sort of how they

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perceived battle and how they conducted battle

301
00:19:03,380 –> 00:19:07,100
and, and it’s interesting how that occurred not necessarily

302
00:19:07,100 –> 00:19:10,780
in opposition, but just in a different kind of way than the way the

303
00:19:10,780 –> 00:19:14,180
Cheyenne would, would, would, would engage in battle or even

304
00:19:14,420 –> 00:19:18,260
in the ways that Lakota, quite frankly, were eventually pushed to

305
00:19:18,260 –> 00:19:21,460
engage again. I don’t think the Lakota actually wanted to engage in battle this way,

306
00:19:21,460 –> 00:19:24,020
but by the time we got to the 1870s,

307
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everything was so hot. This was, this was the direction that things were. Things were

308
00:19:28,690 –> 00:19:32,330
going to be going. So from

309
00:19:32,330 –> 00:19:36,170
the book, the Lakota warriors and the Long Knives exchanged shots all

310
00:19:36,170 –> 00:19:39,890
night. The Long Knives killed one Hunkpapa warrior who

311
00:19:39,890 –> 00:19:43,370
had run the daring line. They took his body and threw it on the campfire.

312
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The warriors were infuriated at the show of disrespect by the Long Knives.

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The morning brought Tatanka Iotake and Crazy Horse to the top of a bluff overlooking

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00:19:52,010 –> 00:19:55,290
the battlefield. They realized the Log Knives are well entrenched and it would be difficult

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00:19:55,290 –> 00:19:59,140
to reach them. Yet the warriors were continuing to run their daring line. There was

316
00:19:59,140 –> 00:20:01,420
no need for this, for they had already proven their courage.

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00:20:03,260 –> 00:20:06,980
Tatanka Iotake soon discovered these braves were followers of a warrior who said he

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00:20:06,980 –> 00:20:10,420
had had a vision. Any warrior who rode with him would be cloaked with an

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00:20:10,420 –> 00:20:14,180
invisible blanket and would not be hit by arrows or bullets. His followers

320
00:20:14,180 –> 00:20:17,780
kept riding repeatedly between the opposing forces. Some were hit, but none

321
00:20:17,780 –> 00:20:21,620
was seriously injured. Tatanke Itake located

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00:20:21,620 –> 00:20:25,080
the warrior whose vision the young rays were following and said, enough.

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00:20:25,480 –> 00:20:29,120
I do not want the young braves wounded or killed. Their bravery is evident and

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00:20:29,120 –> 00:20:32,720
the shedding of their blood will not do us any good. The

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00:20:32,720 –> 00:20:36,120
warrior whose vision was in question spoke up and challenged in return.

326
00:20:36,680 –> 00:20:40,400
The great warrior Tatana Iotake perhaps has forgotten what it takes to

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00:20:40,400 –> 00:20:44,040
be brave after all, he said defiantly. It is said that with

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00:20:44,040 –> 00:20:46,520
age, blood upsets a man’s stomach.

329
00:20:48,520 –> 00:20:52,000
Some of the young braves were also upset at Tatanke Yotake’s advice. They did not

330
00:20:52,000 –> 00:20:55,710
hesitate to make their feelings known. They preferred actions, words, and they said

331
00:20:55,710 –> 00:20:59,270
their chief was interfering and bossy. These young warriors had just questioned

332
00:20:59,270 –> 00:21:03,030
Tatake Yotake’s position as chief of the Lakota nation and leader

333
00:21:03,030 –> 00:21:04,710
of the Strong Heart Society.

334
00:21:07,670 –> 00:21:11,350
Now, the way he sort of

335
00:21:11,350 –> 00:21:14,790
dealt with this was

336
00:21:14,870 –> 00:21:17,510
he invited the young warriors

337
00:21:19,670 –> 00:21:23,120
to. Well, he invited them to a smoke.

338
00:21:23,600 –> 00:21:27,320
So he dismounted his horse and took down his pipe bag and tobacco pouch. He

339
00:21:27,320 –> 00:21:30,560
proceeded to walk with his noticeable limp at a steady and deliberate pace towards the

340
00:21:30,560 –> 00:21:33,840
middle of the opposing force. When he had reached a point midway between the Lakota

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00:21:33,840 –> 00:21:37,360
and the Long Knives, he sat down. He called back to the Lakota, inviting anyone

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00:21:37,360 –> 00:21:41,120
who wished to smoke to join him and share his kadupa. It was more

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00:21:41,120 –> 00:21:44,960
of a challenge than an invitation. None of the

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00:21:44,960 –> 00:21:48,640
complainers stepped forward, including the warrior who claimed to be cloaked in invisibility and

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00:21:48,640 –> 00:21:52,240
invulnerable to the Long Knives guns. Only three men, two

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00:21:52,240 –> 00:21:55,840
Cheyenne, two Cheyenne, and Tata Itake’s nephew, White Bull, had the

347
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courage to join him. If there were any sharp eyed observers, they

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00:21:59,560 –> 00:22:03,200
would have noticed how shaky their legs were as they came and

349
00:22:03,600 –> 00:22:06,320
sat down. The reason I’m reading that.

350
00:22:08,640 –> 00:22:11,880
So let’s talk about this. This is interesting. We sort of ended our last episode

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00:22:11,880 –> 00:22:14,440
with this idea, but I want to pick up here, and then we can move

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00:22:14,440 –> 00:22:18,140
forward into how the Lakota began to deal

353
00:22:18,140 –> 00:22:21,820
with the cavalry and the

354
00:22:21,820 –> 00:22:25,660
long, slow sort of decline. Right. Of the

355
00:22:25,660 –> 00:22:26,660
Lakota in the West.

356
00:22:30,260 –> 00:22:34,020
And we sort of explored this from the perspective of

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how does a leader deal with usurpers? Right. Coming

358
00:22:37,740 –> 00:22:41,060
in to sort of challenge their

359
00:22:41,060 –> 00:22:44,270
authority. But let’s sort of flip this.

360
00:22:44,590 –> 00:22:46,990
So what is the weight?

361
00:22:48,270 –> 00:22:51,630
And I’m not asking you, for you to speak for all your people. Forget that,

362
00:22:51,870 –> 00:22:55,310
just in general, because I don’t like it when I’m asked to do that. And

363
00:22:55,310 –> 00:22:59,070
I’m not going to ask you to do that in general. What is the,

364
00:22:59,950 –> 00:23:03,710
what is the pressure there in that particular situation? If you’re

365
00:23:03,870 –> 00:23:07,430
the usurper, if you’re the young warrior, what is the

366
00:23:07,430 –> 00:23:10,680
pressure there? So

367
00:23:11,240 –> 00:23:14,840
I, I mean, I mean, think of it. Okay, so let’s

368
00:23:16,200 –> 00:23:19,960
put this into, into like modern perspective,

369
00:23:19,960 –> 00:23:23,720
right? Sure. So. And again, something that’s not quite as life threat,

370
00:23:23,800 –> 00:23:27,240
life threatening. Let’s just say, let’s say,

371
00:23:27,400 –> 00:23:31,160
you know, you have the last $20 that you own

372
00:23:31,160 –> 00:23:34,680
in your entire life. You have nothing but $20 left in your pocket,

373
00:23:35,090 –> 00:23:37,730
and you’re on a basketball court and somebody says,

374
00:23:39,330 –> 00:23:43,010
all of us put $20 down, and whoever hits it, you know, hits a

375
00:23:43,010 –> 00:23:46,770
basket from half court gets to keep all of it. And you

376
00:23:46,770 –> 00:23:50,410
go, I, I’m pretty confident I can make that

377
00:23:50,410 –> 00:23:53,970
shot, but do I really want to risk my entire 20 on this? Right.

378
00:23:54,370 –> 00:23:57,730
And I’m using, I’m using an

379
00:23:57,730 –> 00:24:01,570
example that is not nearly as life threatening as

380
00:24:01,570 –> 00:24:05,300
what we’re talking about. Right. But, but if you think

381
00:24:05,300 –> 00:24:09,020
about it, we’re at a point in history where

382
00:24:11,100 –> 00:24:13,300
you and I have talked about it. I don’t remember if we’ve talked about it

383
00:24:13,300 –> 00:24:16,660
on an episode or not, but I know you and I have talked about this

384
00:24:16,660 –> 00:24:20,340
at one point or another, about how today’s version

385
00:24:20,340 –> 00:24:24,140
of I give you my word means something very different

386
00:24:24,140 –> 00:24:27,740
than it did 50 years ago. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Like

387
00:24:27,980 –> 00:24:31,710
you and I could, could create a deal like 50 years ago, a

388
00:24:31,710 –> 00:24:35,470
hundred years ago, if you and I shook hands, that was the

389
00:24:35,470 –> 00:24:38,870
end of it. And if I went, if I went back on that deal, my

390
00:24:38,870 –> 00:24:42,390
reputation was trash and I couldn’t show my face in the neighborhood. Right.

391
00:24:42,470 –> 00:24:46,149
Whereas today you say, yeah, I give you my word. And we’re like, what

392
00:24:46,149 –> 00:24:49,630
does that mean? Like who? Like, no, no, no. Unless you can give me a

393
00:24:49,630 –> 00:24:53,350
contract and you sign it, like, I’m not doing business with you. Right. Like, okay,

394
00:24:53,350 –> 00:24:56,510
so. And again, I, I know this sounds like I’m all over the place here,

395
00:24:56,510 –> 00:25:00,260
but I’m coming back. So if you look at your question and you

396
00:25:00,260 –> 00:25:03,940
say, in that sense, what does this mean to the, to the

397
00:25:03,940 –> 00:25:07,660
usurper, the guy whose vision that is, the fact that he didn’t

398
00:25:07,660 –> 00:25:11,380
go out there and sit with him, his credibility is

399
00:25:11,940 –> 00:25:15,700
gone. Like, no, it, it no longer exists.

400
00:25:15,940 –> 00:25:19,700
Like, he can no longer take charge of a group

401
00:25:19,700 –> 00:25:23,500
of warriors. They’re not going to even. They’re not

402
00:25:23,500 –> 00:25:27,290
going to follow him. They’re not going to do anything for him ever again. Ever.

403
00:25:27,370 –> 00:25:29,690
Like, in order for him to get back that honor,

404
00:25:31,130 –> 00:25:34,210
he would have to go through leaps and bounds beyond belief. And even then, he

405
00:25:34,210 –> 00:25:37,890
might not get it back. Whereas Sitting Bull doing what he

406
00:25:37,890 –> 00:25:41,570
did is basically saying to everybody, I’m proving to

407
00:25:41,570 –> 00:25:45,170
you that my word is my bond. I’m proving to you that if we go

408
00:25:45,170 –> 00:25:48,370
out here and we just sit and we don’t do anything and we don’t shed

409
00:25:48,370 –> 00:25:51,930
any more blood, that this is the right way. And the people who

410
00:25:51,930 –> 00:25:55,650
followed him, and I’m not sure if it, I’m assuming in the

411
00:25:55,650 –> 00:25:58,970
book it talks about when they come back. Yeah. So,

412
00:25:59,290 –> 00:26:02,570
like, when they get them and come back, this is a very different

413
00:26:02,650 –> 00:26:06,330
conversation for him at that point. Now, when Sitting Bull comes back to that

414
00:26:06,330 –> 00:26:09,930
get that garrison of people and he says, so

415
00:26:10,490 –> 00:26:13,970
as I said, we’re done with this. Don’t go. I don’t want our

416
00:26:13,970 –> 00:26:16,090
braves shedding blood for no reason anymore.

417
00:26:17,450 –> 00:26:21,100
It’s. It’s almost like it’s, it’s,

418
00:26:21,100 –> 00:26:23,820
it’s. It’s like the word of God, so to speak. And I’m not saying he

419
00:26:23,820 –> 00:26:27,460
was God. I, I just want to make that clear. I’m not suggesting neither. And

420
00:26:27,460 –> 00:26:30,500
nor did he think he was a God. That’s not the point. But

421
00:26:30,980 –> 00:26:34,780
it’s that idea or ideal

422
00:26:34,780 –> 00:26:37,980
of putting your money where your mouth is and being able to back up and

423
00:26:37,980 –> 00:26:41,700
support what you say and the level of integrity that you

424
00:26:41,700 –> 00:26:44,980
have to have in order to lead the men of men.

425
00:26:46,550 –> 00:26:50,270
He just proved that he had it. And his. And his, his.

426
00:26:50,270 –> 00:26:54,070
The other person did not. Right. So like. And again.

427
00:26:54,630 –> 00:26:58,230
And by the way, the, the opposite effect is also. It

428
00:26:58,310 –> 00:27:01,509
is also true in today’s day and age. Right. If you and I have an

429
00:27:01,509 –> 00:27:04,350
agreement, I say, hey, son, don’t worry, I will take care of that. And I

430
00:27:04,350 –> 00:27:07,910
do. You still don’t give the credit to that task

431
00:27:08,150 –> 00:27:11,960
that they used to. Right. If you met

432
00:27:11,960 –> 00:27:15,680
somebody and said, hey, is Tom’s worth. Is Tom’s word worth anything. You’d be like,

433
00:27:15,680 –> 00:27:19,520
I guess so. Sure you wouldn’t go, absolutely. Because

434
00:27:19,520 –> 00:27:23,000
he has done xyz. Now, I’m not saying you individually, I’m saying people in general.

435
00:27:23,080 –> 00:27:26,520
Because I do feel like there are certain. There might be

436
00:27:26,600 –> 00:27:30,440
a few people around that still that still think of it

437
00:27:30,440 –> 00:27:34,040
in this way. I. I do. By the way, I actually do feel

438
00:27:34,280 –> 00:27:38,050
that a person’s word is strong, like if. And

439
00:27:38,050 –> 00:27:41,570
by the way, I’m also of the opinion that I trust your word until you

440
00:27:41,570 –> 00:27:45,250
give me reason not to. Not the other way around. You don’t have to prove

441
00:27:45,250 –> 00:27:48,650
yourself to me until you disprove it. And then I. Then

442
00:27:49,130 –> 00:27:52,930
again, like I explained a few minutes ago, then your word is worthless to me

443
00:27:52,930 –> 00:27:56,490
and it’s very, very difficult to get it back for me. But I think

444
00:27:56,490 –> 00:27:59,050
that again, it’s like

445
00:28:00,250 –> 00:28:04,020
we see so many examples of this where, you know,

446
00:28:04,020 –> 00:28:07,660
if you, if you run a restaurant and you own the restaurant, but you’re willing

447
00:28:07,660 –> 00:28:11,100
to go wash dishes and you ask somebody to go wash the dishes in your

448
00:28:11,100 –> 00:28:14,060
stead, they’re not going to give you grief because they know you’re willing to do

449
00:28:14,060 –> 00:28:17,860
the hard work. If you own a mechanic shop and you’re willing to

450
00:28:17,860 –> 00:28:21,340
twist the wrenches and you say, hey, can you go finish that break job for

451
00:28:21,340 –> 00:28:25,060
me? Because I’ve got to go finish something else. There’s some credibility

452
00:28:25,380 –> 00:28:29,060
in that where I don’t think we put enough emphasis on that.

453
00:28:29,060 –> 00:28:32,320
And there’s. In these days, we were just talking, you and I were just talking

454
00:28:32,320 –> 00:28:36,120
offline about. About a particular sales

455
00:28:36,280 –> 00:28:40,000
thing. And I won’t get too deep into it, but. But

456
00:28:40,000 –> 00:28:43,400
even in sales is the same way. If somebody brand new to sales comes to

457
00:28:43,400 –> 00:28:47,200
me and says, hey, I want to try this technique of. I’ve heard it’s really

458
00:28:47,200 –> 00:28:50,160
good. I may have had bad experiences with it, but I’m not going to shut

459
00:28:50,160 –> 00:28:52,640
them down. I’m going to say, you know what? You want to try it, go

460
00:28:52,640 –> 00:28:55,080
try it. But if it fails, then you got to come back to my way.

461
00:28:55,610 –> 00:28:59,450
Right? I’m giving them some room and leeway to try some new

462
00:28:59,450 –> 00:29:03,290
things, but I’m only going to give them so much leeway. And if that fails,

463
00:29:03,290 –> 00:29:06,890
I want you to pull yourself back to my processes and go back to my

464
00:29:06,890 –> 00:29:10,210
way because I gave you the opportunity to prove that you were right and you

465
00:29:10,210 –> 00:29:13,610
failed. But so now I want you to go do, do it my way. And

466
00:29:13,610 –> 00:29:16,410
by the way, I’ve been there, done that. I know that fails, but I’m not

467
00:29:16,410 –> 00:29:19,530
going to ridicule you for it. Right. I’m not going to just shut you down

468
00:29:19,530 –> 00:29:23,120
for it. So there’s, there’s some instant credibility

469
00:29:23,200 –> 00:29:26,360
things that happen with, with things like this. And again, go back to, to the

470
00:29:26,360 –> 00:29:30,000
book. I, when, when I read that, I

471
00:29:30,000 –> 00:29:32,960
found that I actually got a little bit of, like, I got some chills. I

472
00:29:32,960 –> 00:29:35,960
was like, God damn it, I was born in the wrong era. Like, I would,

473
00:29:35,960 –> 00:29:39,680
I would have loved to been out there with him. Like, it’s like.

474
00:29:40,000 –> 00:29:42,880
Because I would have trusted him. He would have been somebody I would have trusted.

475
00:29:42,880 –> 00:29:46,440
Like, that’s the, the idea. He was. So

476
00:29:46,440 –> 00:29:49,430
we’ve talked about a different context, but,

477
00:29:50,550 –> 00:29:53,750
you know, we talked about lionizing a villain a couple of episodes ago

478
00:29:54,070 –> 00:29:57,630
with the Dark Knight. With the movie the Dark Knight, Right, The

479
00:29:57,630 –> 00:30:01,150
Joker. Right. Yes. And. And we talked about sort of lion

480
00:30:01,150 –> 00:30:04,990
ising a villain and, and this, the, the, the capacity we have as

481
00:30:04,990 –> 00:30:08,310
a modern culture for lionizing, quite frankly, evil

482
00:30:09,430 –> 00:30:13,150
and, and making that seem like it’s complicated and full of gray

483
00:30:13,150 –> 00:30:15,150
area and blah, blah, blah. Okay.

484
00:30:17,230 –> 00:30:21,070
When you talk about word and honor, I think of

485
00:30:21,070 –> 00:30:24,910
the line from the Joker in the Dark Knight where he

486
00:30:24,910 –> 00:30:28,630
says, I’m a man of my word. And then, of course, he lit half

487
00:30:28,630 –> 00:30:32,110
the money on fire with. That the mobsters stole,

488
00:30:32,590 –> 00:30:35,910
you know, or that he stole from the mobsters. Right. Or for them. Well, no,

489
00:30:35,910 –> 00:30:39,110
he actually stole it from them. And then. And then, you know, tried to, you

490
00:30:39,110 –> 00:30:42,960
know, extort them with it. And he only set fire to his half.

491
00:30:43,120 –> 00:30:46,880
Right. Because he was a man of his word. He did

492
00:30:46,880 –> 00:30:50,520
everything that he said he was going to do. This also reminds

493
00:30:50,520 –> 00:30:52,080
me of the line in.

494
00:30:54,080 –> 00:30:57,120
It’s. Either it’s. I think it’s Eli Weisel’s night where

495
00:30:57,920 –> 00:31:01,600
Eli Wisel. Or it might have been in Viktor Frankl and Man search for meaning.

496
00:31:02,400 –> 00:31:05,440
I think it was man search for meaning. Yeah. Where Victor Frankl was in the

497
00:31:05,440 –> 00:31:09,200
concentration camps underneath. In the Nazi concentration

498
00:31:09,200 –> 00:31:12,310
camps. Right. And he was talking with a prisoner

499
00:31:12,710 –> 00:31:15,990
and a fellow prisoner, and the fellow prisoner said to him,

500
00:31:16,230 –> 00:31:17,990
there’s only one person I believe

501
00:31:20,070 –> 00:31:23,870
where. I believe they will do what they say, and that’s. That’s Hitler, because he’s

502
00:31:23,870 –> 00:31:26,710
done everything that he said he was going to do.

503
00:31:29,910 –> 00:31:30,550
Okay.

504
00:31:33,830 –> 00:31:37,440
We don’t talk too much about honor. To your point, you

505
00:31:37,440 –> 00:31:40,760
framed it exactly correctly. We don’t talk about honor very much

506
00:31:40,760 –> 00:31:44,160
anymore in our society and culture. But

507
00:31:44,160 –> 00:31:47,840
honor, the need for honor as social glue still

508
00:31:47,840 –> 00:31:49,920
shows up in the form of

509
00:31:51,360 –> 00:31:55,120
washing the dishes in the back or tightening the screws on the

510
00:31:55,120 –> 00:31:56,160
engine. Right,

511
00:32:00,240 –> 00:32:04,000
let’s do a brief jog about honor. How do we regain honor in

512
00:32:04,000 –> 00:32:07,720
our society and culture? How do we do that? How do we.

513
00:32:07,720 –> 00:32:10,360
I’m not saying how do we. I don’t know that we can get back to

514
00:32:10,360 –> 00:32:13,640
Tatanke Yotake level of honor. I don’t think we can get back there.

515
00:32:15,240 –> 00:32:18,960
Or if we could get back there, it would take something

516
00:32:18,960 –> 00:32:22,440
happening in our society and culture that would be apocalyptic to get us back there.

517
00:32:22,600 –> 00:32:25,800
Yeah, agree. And I don’t think any of us want to experience that. I don’t

518
00:32:25,800 –> 00:32:28,200
think any of us want to shepherd that in or want to usher that in.

519
00:32:30,000 –> 00:32:32,480
So between apocalyptic,

520
00:32:33,520 –> 00:32:37,120
between apocalyptic dystopia and wonderful utopia,

521
00:32:37,200 –> 00:32:41,000
there’s got to be a middle ground somewhere. How do we hit the

522
00:32:41,000 –> 00:32:44,519
middle ground on honor? How do we teach our children to behave honorably in a

523
00:32:44,519 –> 00:32:48,320
world where, where because of the Internet and social media, talk is

524
00:32:48,320 –> 00:32:52,040
cheap? Well, I, I

525
00:32:52,040 –> 00:32:55,760
think, I think that, I think the answer to that question lies

526
00:32:56,280 –> 00:33:00,040
in the question itself. And, and we’ve talked about this on this podcast more than

527
00:33:00,040 –> 00:33:03,720
once. You just asked. Think about the way you phrase that question.

528
00:33:04,120 –> 00:33:07,840
How, how do we teach our children about honor? I think

529
00:33:07,840 –> 00:33:11,320
that’s where the foundation needs to start. The, the fact that we’re not

530
00:33:11,480 –> 00:33:14,880
talking to our children. I don’t. Nobody does it

531
00:33:14,880 –> 00:33:17,960
anymore. Nobody teaches their children

532
00:33:18,440 –> 00:33:22,290
how to shake hands.

533
00:33:22,290 –> 00:33:26,090
Look people in the eye when you say something, you have to believe it.

534
00:33:26,090 –> 00:33:29,490
Like, nobody. We don’t talk to our kids about this anymore. You know why? Because

535
00:33:29,490 –> 00:33:32,370
when they get too much, you just put them in front of this thing and

536
00:33:32,370 –> 00:33:36,170
you walk away. Yeah. So the people that are teaching our kids

537
00:33:36,170 –> 00:33:39,970
about morals and guidance and, and ethics

538
00:33:39,970 –> 00:33:43,650
and make sure they’re watching the right shows, guys. Because

539
00:33:43,650 –> 00:33:47,490
if they’re watching the wrong shows, they’re not learning the right morals. That’s,

540
00:33:47,770 –> 00:33:51,490
that’s the, that’s a big problem. It’s a big problem for me. It’s a big

541
00:33:51,490 –> 00:33:55,050
problem watching this. I have a three year old

542
00:33:56,170 –> 00:33:59,730
grand niece. Like, she’s my nephew’s daughter and she’s,

543
00:33:59,730 –> 00:34:03,410
she’s, fortunately for me, she’s a, she’s a very big part of my life. My

544
00:34:03,410 –> 00:34:06,490
nephew brings her over all the time. We love her to death. It’s like kind

545
00:34:06,490 –> 00:34:09,930
of like a grandchild to me. Right? Only it’s my, my grand niece.

546
00:34:10,090 –> 00:34:13,890
But like, but when we talk to him about,

547
00:34:13,890 –> 00:34:17,100
like, why is she on the screen so much? She’s three years old. Why does

548
00:34:17,100 –> 00:34:20,500
she have a phone in her hand? Like, why aren’t you just spending time? And

549
00:34:20,500 –> 00:34:23,460
he’s a single dad, so it’s like he goes, I only have so much time

550
00:34:23,460 –> 00:34:25,820
in the day. Like, I have to do things around the house. I have to

551
00:34:25,820 –> 00:34:28,460
do that. Like, And I get that. I do. But,

552
00:34:31,420 –> 00:34:34,780
but at some point, to, to your point, how do we get this?

553
00:34:35,260 –> 00:34:38,980
We have. We have to start taking ownership of our own kin,

554
00:34:38,980 –> 00:34:42,829
so to speak, right? Like, yeah, yeah. And by the way, that this is

555
00:34:42,829 –> 00:34:46,669
another. This is another component of this that I think is a big deal. Today’s

556
00:34:46,669 –> 00:34:50,389
parents are not as willing to allow.

557
00:34:51,909 –> 00:34:55,349
Do you remember the whole phrase, it takes a village to raise a child

558
00:34:56,069 –> 00:34:59,589
that doesn’t exist anymore? It’s, it’s my child.

559
00:34:59,669 –> 00:35:03,309
Don’t tell my child what to do. Don’t correct my child. Don’t. Like, they

560
00:35:03,309 –> 00:35:06,469
don’t allow the general population. Now, granted,

561
00:35:06,869 –> 00:35:10,589
I’m not saying to let any random stranger go correct you. I’m not

562
00:35:10,589 –> 00:35:14,390
saying that. But there’s something to be said,

563
00:35:14,390 –> 00:35:18,190
and I’ll give you an example of exactly what I’m talking about. I was

564
00:35:18,670 –> 00:35:21,670
so, in part of our community, we were, we were at an event. It was,

565
00:35:21,670 –> 00:35:25,430
it was a cultural event, and I was there with a

566
00:35:25,430 –> 00:35:28,670
couple of our people, and they had younger kids there. I think one was

567
00:35:28,990 –> 00:35:32,350
five or six, and one was eight or nine, maybe ten, something like that.

568
00:35:33,470 –> 00:35:37,270
And guilty. I got

569
00:35:37,270 –> 00:35:41,050
them riled up. I’m the age of a grandparent. I feel like

570
00:35:41,050 –> 00:35:44,810
that’s my responsibility to take young kids and get them all riled

571
00:35:44,810 –> 00:35:48,650
up and, like, get them, you know, active and actionable and, like, doing all these

572
00:35:48,650 –> 00:35:51,370
things. So anyway, so we were, we were just kind of going a little crazy,

573
00:35:51,370 –> 00:35:55,090
and I looked at his dad and I said, I’m sorry. This is all

574
00:35:55,090 –> 00:35:58,530
my fault. I got them all round up. And his dad said, no problem. I

575
00:35:58,530 –> 00:36:02,050
get it. Like, that’s, that’s no worries. Okay?

576
00:36:02,130 –> 00:36:04,690
So then I looked at the two boys, and there was two young boys, by

577
00:36:04,690 –> 00:36:07,570
the way. So that’s probably the other reason why they were all going crazy. I

578
00:36:07,570 –> 00:36:10,050
mean, they were going nuts and anyway. But I looked at them both and I

579
00:36:10,050 –> 00:36:12,770
went, all right, guys, hey, hey, hey, hey. All right, enough, enough. You guys are

580
00:36:12,770 –> 00:36:15,970
getting a little out of control. You need to calm down. And I went to

581
00:36:15,970 –> 00:36:18,570
the dad and I said, hey, I’m really sorry, but I just kind of like,

582
00:36:18,570 –> 00:36:21,010
I, I, I calmed them down. I told him to stop and stuff. And the

583
00:36:21,010 –> 00:36:24,770
guy’s like, the dad was like, that’s your responsibility as

584
00:36:24,770 –> 00:36:28,450
the elder. Like you, I Have no problem with this. Which doesn’t happen

585
00:36:28,450 –> 00:36:32,250
anymore. Like, I. I remember. I remember I was in a

586
00:36:32,250 –> 00:36:35,410
supermarket. My best friend and I were in a supermarket. We were getting some

587
00:36:35,990 –> 00:36:39,630
groceries for a cookout or whatever. There was this little boy, probably about five or

588
00:36:39,630 –> 00:36:43,150
six, and he was like, whacking his mom. Whacking her. Mom, mom,

589
00:36:43,150 –> 00:36:46,950
mom, don’t do that. He’s just being a little brat, right? So

590
00:36:46,950 –> 00:36:49,830
my friend walks over to the little boy and he’s like, hey, don’t. Don’t hit

591
00:36:49,830 –> 00:36:53,150
your mom. Like, that’s not nice. And the mother looks at him. She’s like, who

592
00:36:53,150 –> 00:36:55,990
the hell are you to say to talk to my kid like that? The guy

593
00:36:55,990 –> 00:36:59,710
looks at my. My friend, three Hawks looks at her and goes, hit her

594
00:36:59,710 –> 00:37:03,440
once for me. And he walked away. Like, what?

595
00:37:08,080 –> 00:37:10,520
Like I like. So. So. Do you see what I’m saying? Do you see what

596
00:37:10,520 –> 00:37:14,240
I’m saying? Yeah, I see what you’re saying. Yeah. Behind. It takes a village.

597
00:37:14,320 –> 00:37:18,080
As long as it is your village, why are you hesitant to allow

598
00:37:18,080 –> 00:37:21,840
an elder to correct your child or point them in the right direction or

599
00:37:21,840 –> 00:37:25,600
do. Or. Or. Or tell them they’re not doing the right thing? Like

600
00:37:25,600 –> 00:37:29,360
it’s. It should be everybody’s responsibility that you

601
00:37:29,360 –> 00:37:32,800
like and that you trust. Like again, your circle of influence. I’

602
00:37:33,180 –> 00:37:36,780
about letting the general public correct. By the way, I’m also

603
00:37:36,780 –> 00:37:40,500
not talking about allowing people to. With corporal

604
00:37:40,500 –> 00:37:44,140
punishment or anything. Like, I’m not talking about that. So let’s just be. Let’s just

605
00:37:44,140 –> 00:37:47,980
be realistic of what I mean by this, because there’s last

606
00:37:47,980 –> 00:37:51,140
example. I’ll just give you one more example. Yeah, go ahead. We go to powwow,

607
00:37:51,140 –> 00:37:54,780
right? So my kid. My kids were little. When my kids were little, they,

608
00:37:54,780 –> 00:37:58,460
they. The. The general rule of thumb was if you are on the powwow

609
00:37:58,460 –> 00:38:02,170
field, I don’t care where you are. Like, so, you know, like, if you’re out

610
00:38:02,170 –> 00:38:04,490
with your kids and you say something like, as long as I can see you

611
00:38:04,490 –> 00:38:07,930
and you can see me, we’re okay. Yeah, we didn’t even care if we could

612
00:38:07,930 –> 00:38:10,850
see them as long as they stayed on the powwow field. We were good with

613
00:38:10,850 –> 00:38:13,650
this. We didn’t care where they were, who they were talking to or anything because

614
00:38:13,730 –> 00:38:17,410
we knew we had so many people with eyes on them that nothing was going

615
00:38:17,410 –> 00:38:21,130
to happen. And by the way, if they did something wrong, we

616
00:38:21,130 –> 00:38:24,900
would know about it before they ever got back to us, right? So

617
00:38:24,900 –> 00:38:28,700
like if an elder had to growl at them or if, If a.

618
00:38:28,780 –> 00:38:32,380
If somebody that we, whatever. If something happened, like they did something

619
00:38:32,380 –> 00:38:35,580
stupid, whatever, and they had it. They got growled at by one of our elders

620
00:38:35,580 –> 00:38:39,180
or one of our, our even a contemporary that somebody that we liked and

621
00:38:39,180 –> 00:38:42,900
trusted, like somebody that, you know, that was just family, whatever. But if we got

622
00:38:42,900 –> 00:38:46,740
wind of that, they were, they were nervous coming back to us because they

623
00:38:46,740 –> 00:38:50,390
knew that we already knew what they did wrong. And

624
00:38:50,390 –> 00:38:53,470
the fact that an elder had to growl at them, they were even in more

625
00:38:53,470 –> 00:38:57,190
trouble than if we just found out they did it. But that stuff

626
00:38:57,190 –> 00:39:01,030
doesn’t exist anymore. Like even in, even in,

627
00:39:01,030 –> 00:39:04,750
like, even in communities that it like. Okay, so

628
00:39:04,750 –> 00:39:07,910
outside of the native communities, I know that there are other communities that have similar.

629
00:39:08,230 –> 00:39:11,030
Oh yeah. Similar circumstances. Your, your,

630
00:39:12,150 –> 00:39:15,990
you know, you’re especially the Southern Baptist group of people

631
00:39:15,990 –> 00:39:19,750
like my, My dad, My dad was. Belonged to a Southern Baptist church. And if

632
00:39:19,750 –> 00:39:23,390
a, if a pastor or somebody up had to give you a quick pap

633
00:39:23,390 –> 00:39:27,230
upside the head, my dad, you deserved

634
00:39:27,230 –> 00:39:30,990
it. And by the way, you’d get another smack from your parent

635
00:39:30,990 –> 00:39:33,910
because the pastor had to give you a dad. You know what I mean? Like,

636
00:39:34,150 –> 00:39:37,870
but even those environments now are less likely to stop for

637
00:39:37,870 –> 00:39:41,030
stuff like that to happen. And I think that’s a big problem. I think, I

638
00:39:41,030 –> 00:39:44,810
think we need to stop this BS about like,

639
00:39:44,810 –> 00:39:48,490
this thing is not your life and like this thing should not be raising

640
00:39:48,490 –> 00:39:52,170
our children. Like. And so again, I think the problem lies in

641
00:39:52,170 –> 00:39:54,890
just the way that you asked the question, like, how do we teach our kids

642
00:39:54,890 –> 00:39:58,690
about honor and about. Listen, you have to take

643
00:39:58,690 –> 00:40:02,090
an active role as a parent and teaching your kid what honor means, what

644
00:40:02,090 –> 00:40:05,730
integrity is, the definitions of them, the actions of them, what

645
00:40:05,730 –> 00:40:09,190
it looks like, how it’s supposed to present itself to the world, the. How you

646
00:40:09,190 –> 00:40:11,790
supposed to present yourself to the world. I don’t care if you don’t have a

647
00:40:11,790 –> 00:40:15,030
single dollar in your pocket. Your word is still worth something to me. If you

648
00:40:15,030 –> 00:40:18,670
are, if you have integrity, like, if you’re, if you’re an integral person,

649
00:40:18,830 –> 00:40:21,950
I don’t care how much money you have. That money is irrelevant to me.

650
00:40:23,070 –> 00:40:26,190
At the end of the day, the only thing that’s valuable

651
00:40:27,630 –> 00:40:31,150
to your point. Actually, no, you know what?

652
00:40:32,190 –> 00:40:35,390
I’ll go to Jay Z my balls. And my word is all I have.

653
00:40:35,950 –> 00:40:39,710
Yes. I’ll give you another one last example that I think is very

654
00:40:39,710 –> 00:40:43,470
valid here. There’s a homeless guy by, by a store that I frequent

655
00:40:43,630 –> 00:40:46,790
and I watched a guy walk in the, in the store. And the homeless guy

656
00:40:46,790 –> 00:40:50,190
asked him, he’s like, hey bud, you Know, do you have any spare change? And.

657
00:40:51,629 –> 00:40:54,830
And the guy just basically looked at him, ignored him, and walked in the store,

658
00:40:54,830 –> 00:40:58,510
right? Sure. Another person was in front of me, and I was in the parking

659
00:40:58,510 –> 00:41:02,330
lot. So I was walking up to the door, another guy walked up. Hey, hey,

660
00:41:02,330 –> 00:41:05,210
buddy. Actually, he’s like, hey, brother, you know, you have a little bit change, whatever.

661
00:41:05,210 –> 00:41:07,930
The guy’s like, listen, I don’t carry cash anymore. I’m really sorry. And walked right

662
00:41:07,930 –> 00:41:11,050
by him. Like, at least he acknowledged him. When I came up to the door,

663
00:41:11,210 –> 00:41:14,250
the guy was like, hey, buddy, you having a little change? And I went, I

664
00:41:14,250 –> 00:41:18,050
don’t carry change, but what do you need the money for? And

665
00:41:18,050 –> 00:41:20,770
he goes, I just, I really could use a drink. I go, what if I

666
00:41:20,770 –> 00:41:23,090
bought you the drink because I don’t carry cash? I can get you a drink.

667
00:41:23,090 –> 00:41:25,290
Would that be okay for you? I was like, oh, my God, that would be

668
00:41:25,290 –> 00:41:28,860
amazing. What would you like? Gatorade. Any preference in

669
00:41:28,860 –> 00:41:32,100
color? He’s like, no, I don’t care. No, no, I don’t. No, no. And I

670
00:41:32,100 –> 00:41:35,540
was like, okay. You sure? He’s like, yeah. He goes, well, if they have blue,

671
00:41:35,540 –> 00:41:37,460
he’s like, I don’t want to be picky. Like, you’re doing me a favor. I

672
00:41:37,460 –> 00:41:40,100
don’t want to be. If they got blue, I’ll get it. If they don’t, I’ll

673
00:41:40,100 –> 00:41:43,940
just get whatever they have. Great. Come out. And I, I, I found these little.

674
00:41:43,940 –> 00:41:47,500
It was like a six pack of Gatorade for like three bucks. And I

675
00:41:47,500 –> 00:41:50,700
bought him and I handed it to him. You would have thought I gave this

676
00:41:50,700 –> 00:41:54,550
guy a million flipping dollars because everybody else that he’s asking for

677
00:41:54,550 –> 00:41:57,590
money thinks that he’s going to go spend it on drugs. They already have an

678
00:41:57,590 –> 00:42:00,390
assumption of what he’s doing with the money, and they’re never going to give him

679
00:42:00,390 –> 00:42:03,550
money because they don’t want to. They don’t want to contribute to the delinquency of

680
00:42:03,550 –> 00:42:07,270
it. Right. Instead of actually taking a half a second and

681
00:42:07,270 –> 00:42:11,070
asking the guy a couple of questions, which I did. And again, I’m not suggesting

682
00:42:11,070 –> 00:42:14,710
I’m a saint. I was like, this guy, it just didn’t look like somebody like

683
00:42:14,710 –> 00:42:17,070
that to me. It just looked like somebody who was down on his luck that

684
00:42:17,070 –> 00:42:20,640
just, he presented as well, he was articulate when he

685
00:42:20,640 –> 00:42:24,040
spoke. He like, like, it just felt like to me, like it was somebody who

686
00:42:24,040 –> 00:42:27,760
just happened to be homeless and not somebody was like the run of

687
00:42:27,760 –> 00:42:31,280
them, like the, the run of the sewage person or whatever the hell you want.

688
00:42:31,280 –> 00:42:34,960
To call it the fact that this man had the integrity to answer

689
00:42:34,960 –> 00:42:38,720
my question, told me that he was gonna buy it for. For. He was

690
00:42:38,720 –> 00:42:41,880
just. He was just looking for a drink. And I asked, what kind of drink?

691
00:42:41,880 –> 00:42:44,120
And he said, just a Gatorade. And I was like, well, what if I buy

692
00:42:44,120 –> 00:42:47,430
it? And he was like, oh, my God, that would be amazing. Like, he never

693
00:42:47,430 –> 00:42:51,110
hesitated to be like, well, at the register, you can always ask for

694
00:42:51,110 –> 00:42:54,270
cash back. Like, he. It was never anything. It was never about the money.

695
00:42:54,830 –> 00:42:58,350
Right? That. To me, that man, that homeless man,

696
00:42:58,350 –> 00:43:02,110
showed me more integrity and honor than half the people I meet on

697
00:43:02,110 –> 00:43:05,950
a regular basis. So we’re going to get back

698
00:43:05,950 –> 00:43:08,710
to the book in a minute, but I want to. There’s one other point I

699
00:43:08,710 –> 00:43:11,270
want to make, and I think it’s valuable in what you said about the homeless,

700
00:43:11,270 –> 00:43:14,590
in your story there, that you related about the homeless man and about the Gatorade

701
00:43:17,630 –> 00:43:21,350
during times of chaos, social chaos,

702
00:43:21,350 –> 00:43:24,190
moral chaos, economic chaos,

703
00:43:27,150 –> 00:43:30,749
cultural chaos, which I assert, we’ve been in for the last

704
00:43:30,749 –> 00:43:34,550
25 years. I think. I think it’s slowly coming to

705
00:43:34,550 –> 00:43:37,790
a close. I absolutely do. That’s why I do the podcast in the way that

706
00:43:37,790 –> 00:43:41,190
I do it. I think we’re slowly coming to a close with this a. Because

707
00:43:41,190 –> 00:43:44,870
chaos is exhausting, and people are

708
00:43:44,870 –> 00:43:48,590
genuinely, I think, psychologically and spiritually exhausted. They

709
00:43:48,590 –> 00:43:52,430
don’t know why they’re exhausted. This is why we’re. This is why the. We’re

710
00:43:52,430 –> 00:43:55,950
the country with the highest amount of diagnosed

711
00:43:56,750 –> 00:44:00,510
anxiety and depression. Because depression is just anxiety turned inward. It’s

712
00:44:00,510 –> 00:44:04,110
just anger and fear turned inward. And then anxiety is just the outward

713
00:44:04,110 –> 00:44:07,840
expression of inner. Inner fear and anger.

714
00:44:07,840 –> 00:44:10,480
Where does fear and anger come from? It comes from a sense of chaos, a

715
00:44:10,480 –> 00:44:14,240
feeling of being out of control. Most SSRIs, you know, out of any

716
00:44:14,240 –> 00:44:17,920
country in the world are consumed. In the United States of America, diagnosed to

717
00:44:17,920 –> 00:44:21,480
consume in the United States of America. Goes along with our fentanyl

718
00:44:21,480 –> 00:44:24,440
addiction, by the way, folks. It’s all part of the Same

719
00:44:25,240 –> 00:44:28,280
fentanyl opioid SSRIs,

720
00:44:29,080 –> 00:44:32,240
all part of the same thing. And we’re finally, by the way, getting the.

721
00:44:33,120 –> 00:44:36,680
Getting the guts up as a society in America to actually say this stuff out

722
00:44:36,680 –> 00:44:39,600
loud, which means we’re now on the road to actually

723
00:44:40,080 –> 00:44:43,720
fixing the problem. Right? Okay. One of the ways you fix the problem

724
00:44:43,720 –> 00:44:47,559
is through, to Tom’s point, reestablishing the

725
00:44:47,559 –> 00:44:49,200
bonds of family,

726
00:44:51,200 –> 00:44:54,000
culture, or not culture, sorry, family, community,

727
00:44:54,720 –> 00:44:57,690
and traditions. And

728
00:44:59,370 –> 00:45:02,090
community, which is the part that Tom’s talking about

729
00:45:03,210 –> 00:45:06,930
community. Only happens in high trust environments. The

730
00:45:06,930 –> 00:45:10,410
powwow field is a high trust environment. What you’ve described, right.

731
00:45:11,450 –> 00:45:14,250
My church, you know, the church that I went to in New York,

732
00:45:15,290 –> 00:45:18,450
the church we’re currently in the middle of a church search right now this summer.

733
00:45:18,450 –> 00:45:22,290
It’s just as terrifying and anxiety ridden as you could

734
00:45:22,290 –> 00:45:26,050
possibly imagine. Well, we came out of one community

735
00:45:26,210 –> 00:45:29,810
and now we’re trying to get into another community and we’re trying to find, we’re

736
00:45:29,810 –> 00:45:33,090
trying to find which community is going to be high trust. Right. For sure.

737
00:45:33,570 –> 00:45:37,330
And you know, the, the church communities that I’ve been a part of, I’ve

738
00:45:37,330 –> 00:45:41,130
always said to people, if you see my kid doing something, because I can’t be

739
00:45:41,130 –> 00:45:44,050
there 247 if you see my kid doing something,

740
00:45:44,770 –> 00:45:48,410
correct. My child say stop

741
00:45:48,410 –> 00:45:52,070
that if it’s, if it’s something that is not what they should be

742
00:45:52,070 –> 00:45:54,670
doing and you know, they shouldn’t be doing it. Now a lot of people don’t

743
00:45:54,670 –> 00:45:57,830
take me seriously on this because to your point, they have the vision of the

744
00:45:57,830 –> 00:46:01,630
lady in their head that’s being hit by the five year old. Right? Right. So

745
00:46:01,630 –> 00:46:04,710
it takes a little while for them to take you seriously, but the second you

746
00:46:04,710 –> 00:46:07,950
open, not the second, but after a little while, once that door is open

747
00:46:08,670 –> 00:46:12,510
and you don’t turn out to be a growling maniac. As a parent every time

748
00:46:12,510 –> 00:46:16,070
your kid is corrected and you, and you recognize that you see your child as

749
00:46:16,070 –> 00:46:19,890
a human being with foibles the same way every other human

750
00:46:19,890 –> 00:46:22,850
being has foibles. And your kid’s not perfect.

751
00:46:23,730 –> 00:46:27,410
It’s just a work in progress. And I just say it, it’s just a work

752
00:46:27,410 –> 00:46:30,930
in progress like everybody else. Is it in progress? Okay.

753
00:46:31,970 –> 00:46:35,410
Okay. Now there will be correction when the child

754
00:46:35,410 –> 00:46:38,930
screws up, but again, this requires high trust.

755
00:46:39,650 –> 00:46:42,850
In high trust environments, that works.

756
00:46:45,260 –> 00:46:48,980
One of the key things that goes away during times of chaos is trust. And

757
00:46:48,980 –> 00:46:51,420
it becomes really hard to reestablish that.

758
00:46:53,180 –> 00:46:56,900
And so what you’re left with, to your point about the homeless person is

759
00:46:56,900 –> 00:47:00,540
low trust. Like those three reactions you had before you walked up.

760
00:47:00,620 –> 00:47:04,340
Those are all low trust reactions. All of them. I

761
00:47:04,340 –> 00:47:07,820
don’t trust this person. I’m more suspicious of this person.

762
00:47:07,980 –> 00:47:11,680
I’m more protective of myself. I don’t have the

763
00:47:11,680 –> 00:47:15,400
thing that this person needs because I’ve made an assumption in my brain about

764
00:47:15,400 –> 00:47:19,160
what this person needs. And I don’t trust enough myself or the

765
00:47:19,160 –> 00:47:22,280
other person to ask these questions. These are all signs of low trust society.

766
00:47:22,840 –> 00:47:26,159
And I also think there’s, there’s Some added. So I

767
00:47:26,159 –> 00:47:30,000
purposefully did not talk about race in this, in that story. Absolutely

768
00:47:30,000 –> 00:47:32,600
not. I don’t think, I don’t think that’s relevant at all actually to what you’re

769
00:47:32,600 –> 00:47:36,370
talking about. But, but I do think it’s relevant and in a small sense

770
00:47:36,370 –> 00:47:40,130
because of that whole like that, that judgmentalness

771
00:47:40,130 –> 00:47:43,850
that happens, that is not blatant racism, but

772
00:47:43,850 –> 00:47:47,170
it’s still there. That’s underlying tones, things.

773
00:47:48,050 –> 00:47:51,490
That was part of it too. And again, I purposely left that out because

774
00:47:51,730 –> 00:47:55,330
quite honestly, I didn’t give a crap that the guy was not my race. It

775
00:47:55,330 –> 00:47:58,850
didn’t matter to me. And again, you notice I’m still not, I’m avoiding telling you

776
00:47:58,850 –> 00:48:02,650
what the race was on purpose. Correct. Right. Well, and I think to me

777
00:48:02,650 –> 00:48:05,990
it. Didn’T matter, but to everybody else I, I think it did matter. That’s what

778
00:48:05,990 –> 00:48:09,190
I think. What I. Why, why I brought it up because I think there was.

779
00:48:09,190 –> 00:48:12,950
That was a component of it that. Well, that mistrust

780
00:48:12,950 –> 00:48:16,030
was a component of it, of the, of the race. The race. So in low

781
00:48:16,030 –> 00:48:18,310
tr. Well, and in low trust societies,

782
00:48:19,990 –> 00:48:23,510
you see that. And, and one of the. It’s interesting that we’re having this

783
00:48:23,510 –> 00:48:27,350
conversation now because one of the conversations I’ve had, I’ve had recently with somebody

784
00:48:28,150 –> 00:48:31,740
on a different project that I’m involved in was really

785
00:48:31,740 –> 00:48:35,420
focused around. Well, not focused around one of the questions that he has been

786
00:48:35,420 –> 00:48:39,220
asking myself or that we’ve been exploring in this, this project that I’m

787
00:48:39,220 –> 00:48:42,980
working on is how do you real establish how do you reestablish

788
00:48:42,980 –> 00:48:46,740
cultural institutions? How do you reestablish trust in cultural institutions? Right.

789
00:48:48,020 –> 00:48:51,540
And he made the comparison

790
00:48:51,620 –> 00:48:55,180
to cultures in northern Europe, right. Like Finland or Sweden or

791
00:48:55,180 –> 00:48:58,960
Denmark. And I said, well, those three cultures have something

792
00:48:58,960 –> 00:49:02,600
that’s remarkably in common that we don’t. So that’s why

793
00:49:02,600 –> 00:49:06,360
they’re not necessarily a false comparison, but not an apples to

794
00:49:06,360 –> 00:49:07,280
apples comparison.

795
00:49:09,920 –> 00:49:13,400
Those societies in general tend to be highly

796
00:49:13,400 –> 00:49:16,720
homogenous racially and ethnically,

797
00:49:17,440 –> 00:49:21,240
highly homogenous culturally, and their populations

798
00:49:21,240 –> 00:49:24,810
tend to be small, smaller, significantly smaller than the

799
00:49:24,810 –> 00:49:28,650
population of the United States of America. That I said, what you get here is

800
00:49:28,650 –> 00:49:30,930
a multi ethnic, multiracial society

801
00:49:32,370 –> 00:49:36,170
that is not homogenous, that is spread over a large geographic

802
00:49:36,170 –> 00:49:39,490
area with a lot of people. And I said

803
00:49:40,930 –> 00:49:44,690
part of the challenge of reestablishing social

804
00:49:44,690 –> 00:49:48,250
institutions is going to be how do you

805
00:49:48,250 –> 00:49:51,920
reestablish social cohesion? And the only

806
00:49:51,920 –> 00:49:55,520
ways to reestablish social. Not the only, but the beginning of the ways to

807
00:49:55,520 –> 00:49:59,040
reestablish social cohesion are to build, to build

808
00:49:59,040 –> 00:50:02,880
trust starting in. And this is the hard work that no one wants to hear.

809
00:50:03,200 –> 00:50:06,000
But starting in families and then communities

810
00:50:07,040 –> 00:50:10,800
and then moving up, you can’t start at the top, which is what everybody wants

811
00:50:10,800 –> 00:50:14,240
to do. Everybody wants a government program. You cannot start at the top.

812
00:50:14,480 –> 00:50:18,000
You have to start with, quite frankly, Tom Libby.

813
00:50:18,480 –> 00:50:22,240
You’ve got to start with Hassan Sorrells. You got to start with us

814
00:50:22,240 –> 00:50:25,640
and how we raise our families. And, and to the point about the smoking of

815
00:50:25,640 –> 00:50:29,200
the pipe, that was a way of establishing that this person

816
00:50:30,240 –> 00:50:33,920
not only was the big dog on the battlefield, let’s be real, as the kids

817
00:50:33,920 –> 00:50:36,560
would say these days, that was a major flex. I believe the kids are still

818
00:50:36,560 –> 00:50:40,400
saying that. I don’t know what the kids

819
00:50:40,400 –> 00:50:44,060
are saying, but I think, I think they’re saying that. But

820
00:50:44,300 –> 00:50:48,020
it was also a way of establishing that

821
00:50:48,020 –> 00:50:49,820
this person was someone who was

822
00:50:50,140 –> 00:50:53,740
trustworthy. And trustworthy, of course, means

823
00:50:53,740 –> 00:50:57,380
worthy of being trusted, which honor goes

824
00:50:57,380 –> 00:51:01,180
along with that. So does appropriate judgment. So

825
00:51:01,180 –> 00:51:04,620
does all of the other things that, that we’ve talked about. So

826
00:51:04,780 –> 00:51:08,060
these, these things all link together in a, in a virtuous circle. And I think,

827
00:51:08,060 –> 00:51:10,820
in answer to my own question, I think the way that you re. Establish honor

828
00:51:10,820 –> 00:51:14,220
or you teach people to establish honor is you have to do it in families.

829
00:51:16,200 –> 00:51:20,000
You have to be, you have to be a person of your word.

830
00:51:20,000 –> 00:51:23,440
And by the way, the tip that I would give is, if you can’t be

831
00:51:23,440 –> 00:51:26,680
a person of your word, never give your word. Right?

832
00:51:27,240 –> 00:51:31,039
Right. Just don’t give your word or rarely give your

833
00:51:31,039 –> 00:51:34,520
word. Or when you give it, move heaven and

834
00:51:34,520 –> 00:51:38,280
earth to commit to that thing and tell your kids you’re

835
00:51:38,280 –> 00:51:40,200
moving heaven and earth to commit to that thing

836
00:51:42,480 –> 00:51:45,200
and let your yes be your yes. As it says in the New Testament,

837
00:51:46,080 –> 00:51:49,800
your yes be your yes and your no be your no. You know, and that

838
00:51:49,800 –> 00:51:53,640
in and of itself turns you into a trustworthy person. Right. Like so,

839
00:51:53,640 –> 00:51:57,200
like, if you never give your word or the very, very

840
00:51:57,200 –> 00:52:01,040
few times you do, you fulfill it, then

841
00:52:01,040 –> 00:52:04,480
that, that, like that, that’s becomes your legacy. Right?

842
00:52:04,720 –> 00:52:08,470
Oh, can I, can I trust Tom’s word? Oh, for sure. Because if he,

843
00:52:08,550 –> 00:52:12,030
he doesn’t give his word lightly, and if he does, he’s going to, like, he

844
00:52:12,030 –> 00:52:15,830
never, he doesn’t throw his, that’s not something he throws around. I, I remember.

845
00:52:16,550 –> 00:52:19,830
So my kids were told when I was, when they were very young that

846
00:52:20,150 –> 00:52:23,590
I, I, I am not a gambler. I do not gamble. I don’t like

847
00:52:23,590 –> 00:52:27,430
gambling. I Don’t like the risk of, well, let’s face it, I

848
00:52:27,430 –> 00:52:30,350
don’t like the risk of losing money, but I don’t like the risk of losing

849
00:52:30,350 –> 00:52:34,060
face either. So gambling, even gambling on, you

850
00:52:34,060 –> 00:52:37,420
know, on a gentleman’s bet, so to speak, is not my thing.

851
00:52:37,740 –> 00:52:41,300
So my, my kids always grew up. Like if they had, if, if we had

852
00:52:41,300 –> 00:52:44,460
some sort of disagreement and I looked at them and I said, do you want

853
00:52:44,460 –> 00:52:48,300
to make a bet? They would immediately stop because they knew I would

854
00:52:48,300 –> 00:52:52,140
not say that unless I was not 50 or 70.

855
00:52:52,140 –> 00:52:55,820
No, I was a hundred percent sure I was right.

856
00:52:56,380 –> 00:53:00,170
Because I don’t gamble. I won’t gamble with. And I won’t gamble with my word.

857
00:53:00,250 –> 00:53:04,010
So if I ever said to somebody, you want to bet?

858
00:53:04,010 –> 00:53:06,810
I’ll bet right now. I’ll bet whatever you want to bet. I don’t care what

859
00:53:06,810 –> 00:53:09,690
it is. I’ll make a bet with you. And they’ll go, well, I know Tom

860
00:53:09,690 –> 00:53:12,210
doesn’t gamble, so he’s got to be right. I’m not betting. I’m not taking that

861
00:53:12,210 –> 00:53:12,490
bet.

862
00:53:16,330 –> 00:53:19,530
So, you know, and you might as. Well, you might as well take your wallet

863
00:53:19,530 –> 00:53:21,930
out of your pocket and just give him the money. Just give it money already.

864
00:53:23,610 –> 00:53:27,170
And whether it was fact checking something that I said and you know, again, as

865
00:53:27,170 –> 00:53:30,720
my kids got older and they had access to the Internet and, you know,

866
00:53:30,720 –> 00:53:34,560
and, and again, knowing who I am, you’ll get this more than the problem the

867
00:53:34,560 –> 00:53:38,400
listeners do. But like, is this plant edible? Or can I use this for

868
00:53:38,400 –> 00:53:42,120
a bow string or whatever? And I would say, yes. No, don’t do that. Don’t.

869
00:53:42,120 –> 00:53:45,600
Then they’ll be like, oh, I, I read somewhere on, on Google that I can

870
00:53:45,600 –> 00:53:48,000
do that. I’m like, all right, well,

871
00:53:49,280 –> 00:53:52,320
I don’t think so. I’ll bet you. I’ll bet you on it, my son. I

872
00:53:52,320 –> 00:53:54,640
never mind. I don’t want. Never mind. No, no, no.

873
00:54:01,190 –> 00:54:04,830
You heard it here first. Tom Libby is better than Google on some things. Oh,

874
00:54:04,830 –> 00:54:08,150
no, no, I don’t know about better than Google. But again, you got to remember

875
00:54:08,150 –> 00:54:11,590
when kids, again, my kids are all adults now, so when Google in his

876
00:54:11,590 –> 00:54:15,430
infancy, you had to be really cautious

877
00:54:15,830 –> 00:54:19,430
how you asked it a question. And like today’s Google is very different.

878
00:54:19,510 –> 00:54:22,950
Like, it’s very different. So it’s not, it wasn’t the same thing.

879
00:54:23,300 –> 00:54:26,980
Yeah, they said, I read on Google. It really meant Google showed me a

880
00:54:26,980 –> 00:54:30,780
website. I have no idea how credible the website is. Yeah, exactly.

881
00:54:30,780 –> 00:54:34,500
Yeah, it’s so it’s, it’s not something today. It’s some schmuck

882
00:54:34,500 –> 00:54:37,980
somewhere. Yeah, well, it’s, it’s kind of like, it’s kind of like the, the thing

883
00:54:37,980 –> 00:54:41,780
we’re currently going through with the LLMs. Absolutely. Yeah. It’s, it’s. We’re

884
00:54:41,780 –> 00:54:45,060
just, we’re just at the beginning of another revolution now. Look at that. All right,

885
00:54:46,500 –> 00:54:49,380
all right, so I want to talk about

886
00:54:50,490 –> 00:54:54,050
the Lakota and the Battle of Greasy. Of the Greasy

887
00:54:54,050 –> 00:54:57,850
Grass. Okay, so let’s talk a

888
00:54:57,850 –> 00:54:59,610
little about this because this is the battle that

889
00:55:01,210 –> 00:55:04,730
precipitated, I guess is the best word to use the

890
00:55:04,730 –> 00:55:07,610
movement of the Lakota in,

891
00:55:09,450 –> 00:55:12,490
in, in the United States, in the Dakotas actually,

892
00:55:13,050 –> 00:55:16,810
into, into Canada. Right. And then going back and forth from

893
00:55:16,810 –> 00:55:20,320
the Canadian border, or not from the Canadian border, but crossing

894
00:55:20,560 –> 00:55:24,160
the U.S. canadian border. Right. Going back and forth

895
00:55:24,560 –> 00:55:28,200
in order to avoid, not only to avoid the US Cavalry but also to

896
00:55:28,200 –> 00:55:31,960
avoid being imprisoned in

897
00:55:31,960 –> 00:55:35,560
a military prison and eventually sent

898
00:55:35,560 –> 00:55:37,360
to a reservation.

899
00:55:39,200 –> 00:55:42,720
This battle began that process. So let’s pick up

900
00:55:43,120 –> 00:55:46,810
in the book Sitting Bull, his life and legacy, the Battle of the Greasy Grass.

901
00:55:47,770 –> 00:55:51,410
Want to read a few pieces here? Custer. And yes, that would be the

902
00:55:51,410 –> 00:55:55,050
Custer that you are thinking of, ladies and gentlemen. Custer assigned Captain

903
00:55:55,050 –> 00:55:58,770
Frederick Benteen 350 men and set them to circle to the

904
00:55:58,770 –> 00:56:02,010
west of the Lakota camp. He assigned Major Marcus Renault

905
00:56:02,010 –> 00:56:05,130
175 men and ordered them to approach from the south. Custer took the remaining

906
00:56:05,130 –> 00:56:07,770
225 men to attack from the east.

907
00:56:09,370 –> 00:56:12,890
Renault was the first to engage the Lakota when he charged the Hunk Papa camp.

908
00:56:13,620 –> 00:56:17,340
The first volley from his troops killed Chief Gaul’s two wives and

909
00:56:17,340 –> 00:56:21,020
his two daughters. The Hunkapapa warriors were quick

910
00:56:21,020 –> 00:56:24,620
to react though and repelled the attack. Renault ordered his troops to

911
00:56:24,620 –> 00:56:28,220
dismount at the edge of the tree line and form a skirmish line. Standing next

912
00:56:28,220 –> 00:56:32,020
to his re scout, Bloody Knife, Renault prepared for the upcoming battle.

913
00:56:32,020 –> 00:56:35,740
Then a bullet from a Lakota rifle struck Bloody Knife in the head. Blood

914
00:56:35,740 –> 00:56:39,580
and brains splattered all over Renault’s head and clothes. Dazed and horrified, Renault called

915
00:56:39,580 –> 00:56:42,100
for an all out retreat back across the river to the top of the hill.

916
00:56:42,490 –> 00:56:45,770
And there he waited for Benteen to

917
00:56:45,770 –> 00:56:49,050
reinforce him. Meanwhile, Custer led his

918
00:56:49,050 –> 00:56:52,810
225 men under the COVID of deep ravine to the eastern edge of

919
00:56:53,610 –> 00:56:57,370
and you will not be surprised to hear this folks, the Little Bighorn River.

920
00:56:58,249 –> 00:57:01,730
On the western side of the river, some young warriors were engaged in retrieving their

921
00:57:01,730 –> 00:57:04,530
horses. They spotted the column of soldiers on the east side of the river getting

922
00:57:04,530 –> 00:57:08,210
ready to cross. The warriors were armed with rifles and started firing at this new

923
00:57:08,210 –> 00:57:11,810
troop of long knives. They picked off the first two riders in the

924
00:57:11,810 –> 00:57:14,450
file. The next two long knives reached out and picked up one of the fallen

925
00:57:14,450 –> 00:57:18,210
troopers, and the whole column turned and fled. The route was

926
00:57:18,210 –> 00:57:20,930
on. As they attempted to read the top of the highest point to the northeast,

927
00:57:20,930 –> 00:57:24,490
a bluff now known as last stand

928
00:57:24,890 –> 00:57:28,730
hill, Taka Iotaki began preparing

929
00:57:28,730 –> 00:57:31,930
himself to join the battle. He was ridding his favorite horse when his aged mother

930
00:57:31,930 –> 00:57:34,810
stopped him. She pointed out that he did not have to fight because he did

931
00:57:34,810 –> 00:57:37,490
not have anything more to prove to the people. She reminded him that he had

932
00:57:37,490 –> 00:57:41,180
two wives and small children to take care of. Since he was now a mature

933
00:57:41,180 –> 00:57:44,980
man of 45 years, he could lead the younger. He could

934
00:57:44,980 –> 00:57:48,220
let the younger warriors prove their worth by protecting the camp and defending the people.

935
00:57:48,300 –> 00:57:51,100
Pause. I’m 45 this year.

936
00:57:52,620 –> 00:57:56,060
Tom is not. Tom’s a different age.

937
00:57:57,340 –> 00:58:01,020
Let me tell you this. Right now, my brain were in that situation. I’m

938
00:58:01,020 –> 00:58:04,620
mounting up in front of my horse and I’m leaving.

939
00:58:06,080 –> 00:58:09,800
And my mother’s in her 70s. She would probably say the same thing. And I

940
00:58:09,800 –> 00:58:13,520
would probably ignore my mother, too. I

941
00:58:13,520 –> 00:58:16,920
probably would. I would probably. I’d be like, okay, I’m going back. I’m a little

942
00:58:16,920 –> 00:58:20,560
older than 45, and I’m still with you, so I’m going.

943
00:58:21,040 –> 00:58:23,680
Where’s my horse? Thank you. I’ve been advised.

944
00:58:25,920 –> 00:58:29,600
Where’s my horse is the equivalent of hold my beer. There you go. Right? Exactly

945
00:58:30,640 –> 00:58:33,670
like we’re getting. That’s. They. They. We.

946
00:58:34,310 –> 00:58:37,750
They are coming here, and I would love to accommodate these people. They seem to

947
00:58:37,750 –> 00:58:39,830
want to have a fight. They seem to be very enthusiastic

948
00:58:43,910 –> 00:58:47,669
in the Lakota culture. So back to the book. In Lakota culture, the wisdom of

949
00:58:47,669 –> 00:58:51,190
women was much respected and admired. Tatanka Iatake was

950
00:58:51,270 –> 00:58:54,590
a chief of the Lakota nation and leader of the midnight strong heart society. With

951
00:58:54,590 –> 00:58:58,270
many coups as a sash bearer, Yeti had the ultimate respect for his mother’s

952
00:58:58,270 –> 00:59:01,990
advice. He accepted her wisdom and bowed to her

953
00:59:01,990 –> 00:59:05,470
wishes by not participating in the battle. Instead, he guided the vulnerable non

954
00:59:05,470 –> 00:59:09,110
combatants to a safe place. Okay, that’s the difference between

955
00:59:09,110 –> 00:59:12,710
him and me. The long knives were attempting to reach the highest point of the

956
00:59:12,710 –> 00:59:15,830
ridge. Gaul was leading a group of warriors in pursuit when crazy horse and abandoned

957
00:59:15,830 –> 00:59:19,590
Lakota came up over the top of the ridge and cut off the retreat. Two

958
00:59:19,590 –> 00:59:23,110
moons and the Cheyenne warriors were coming in on the flanks. The shrill of the

959
00:59:23,110 –> 00:59:26,660
eagle bone whistle was just as loud as the constant sound of gunfire. The

960
00:59:26,660 –> 00:59:30,060
warriors are praying for Help and guidance from the spirits by blowing through their eagle

961
00:59:30,220 –> 00:59:33,780
bone whistles. When the battle began, a young

962
00:59:33,780 –> 00:59:36,900
warrior was eager to join the fight. In count Ku, he had three good ponies,

963
00:59:36,900 –> 00:59:39,860
so he chose his favorite to ride into battle. He handed his weapons to a

964
00:59:39,860 –> 00:59:43,420
friend to hold while he caught the pony throwing a rope around its neck. He

965
00:59:43,420 –> 00:59:46,620
tried to mount, but the pony was excited too. It shied and ran around in

966
00:59:46,620 –> 00:59:49,740
a circle at the edge of the halter rope with the young warrior chasing behind.

967
00:59:50,060 –> 00:59:52,950
By the time he managed to catch the horse and mount, the battle was over.

968
00:59:53,590 –> 00:59:57,390
His brave plans to count coup on the enemy had disappeared while he

969
00:59:57,390 –> 01:00:00,910
had tried catching his horse. As one warrior said after the

970
01:00:00,910 –> 01:00:04,710
battle, quote, the fight with the long knives lasted as long

971
01:00:04,790 –> 01:00:08,310
as a hungry man eats his meal. Close quote.

972
01:00:08,870 –> 01:00:12,390
I love that it was over very quickly.

973
01:00:13,590 –> 01:00:17,430
The fact that Long Hair Custer was present was unknown to Tataka

974
01:00:17,430 –> 01:00:21,190
Iotaka or any of the Lakota, Cheyenne and Arapaho warriors. Custer had cut

975
01:00:21,190 –> 01:00:25,020
his hair short and was dressed in the usual cavalry uniform rather than his flamboyant

976
01:00:25,020 –> 01:00:28,700
trademark buckskins. Unbeknownst to the Lakota

977
01:00:28,700 –> 01:00:31,660
warriors who had fired on the long knives at the river’s edge, one of the

978
01:00:31,660 –> 01:00:35,460
two shoulders shot was Custer. We’re going to talk about that

979
01:00:35,460 –> 01:00:38,540
in a minute. He had been wounded, and his men tried to protect and care

980
01:00:38,540 –> 01:00:41,580
for him. Custer was one of the first to fall at the Battle of

981
01:00:41,660 –> 01:00:45,340
Greasy Grass. Now I’m going to go

982
01:00:45,340 –> 01:00:48,620
to the end here. The victory celebrations were held in all areas

983
01:00:49,020 –> 01:00:52,170
of the large camp. There was much feasting and dancing, but it did not bring

984
01:00:52,170 –> 01:00:55,810
joy to Tatanka Itaka. He was again in mourning for his son and

985
01:00:55,810 –> 01:00:59,410
saddened for the actions of the people. They had taken the spoils of battle, and

986
01:00:59,410 –> 01:01:02,650
in doing so, the people cursed their descendants.

987
01:01:03,210 –> 01:01:06,930
They would suffer under the Wasuku’s

988
01:01:06,930 –> 01:01:10,610
laws, rules, and policies. The most devastating was when the Wasuku

989
01:01:10,610 –> 01:01:14,450
government created a law making it illegal for the Lakota people to live

990
01:01:14,450 –> 01:01:18,150
in the ancient spiritual way of life. Everyone had freedom of

991
01:01:18,150 –> 01:01:21,910
religion in this country except the indigenous

992
01:01:22,390 –> 01:01:22,790
people.

993
01:01:31,990 –> 01:01:34,070
Yeah, I’d agree with that.

994
01:01:36,150 –> 01:01:39,110
Just on the face of it, just on the face of the fact of. Of

995
01:01:39,110 –> 01:01:42,850
the statement, not. Not giving it more weight or less weight than.

996
01:01:42,850 –> 01:01:46,690
Than anything else. Now, of

997
01:01:46,690 –> 01:01:49,090
course, the question becomes,

998
01:01:51,890 –> 01:01:55,730
why would you not allow freedom of religion? What are you

999
01:01:55,730 –> 01:01:59,490
actually afraid of? Because that’s the more important question

1000
01:01:59,570 –> 01:02:03,290
than anything else. And I think it’s important

1001
01:02:03,290 –> 01:02:07,050
to realize that in the 1870s, in

1002
01:02:07,050 –> 01:02:10,840
a post Civil War America, most people don’t realize this in

1003
01:02:10,840 –> 01:02:12,720
a post Civil War America where

1004
01:02:15,680 –> 01:02:19,520
no where in every, in every historical cycle,

1005
01:02:20,480 –> 01:02:24,320
except for the historical cycle that was around the Civil War, there are typically three

1006
01:02:24,320 –> 01:02:28,000
generations, right? So there’s an older generation or four

1007
01:02:28,000 –> 01:02:31,360
generations, actually, there’s an older generation. There are usually two

1008
01:02:31,360 –> 01:02:34,920
maintenance generations, one older, one younger, and then there’s a younger

1009
01:02:34,920 –> 01:02:38,430
generation, right? And that’s how the cycle begins. Again, this is a historical

1010
01:02:38,430 –> 01:02:42,230
cycle you can track back, honestly, throughout Western history, all the way

1011
01:02:42,230 –> 01:02:46,070
back to like the 16th century. But you can track it

1012
01:02:46,070 –> 01:02:49,750
just in human society back to the Greeks and actually even back to the Romans.

1013
01:02:49,750 –> 01:02:53,470
The Romans even noticed, noted this during the Civil War,

1014
01:02:53,550 –> 01:02:55,710
however, in the United States of America,

1015
01:02:57,390 –> 01:03:01,030
that that third maintenance generation was

1016
01:03:01,030 –> 01:03:04,870
actually ground out. It was actually ground out in the battles of

1017
01:03:04,870 –> 01:03:08,630
Antietam and Gettysburg and in all those

1018
01:03:08,630 –> 01:03:12,190
places. And it was ground out by the two older generations

1019
01:03:12,750 –> 01:03:16,590
that were screaming for the blood, the blood of

1020
01:03:16,590 –> 01:03:20,350
retribution around slavery or states

1021
01:03:20,350 –> 01:03:24,030
rights or abolition or whatever. So

1022
01:03:24,190 –> 01:03:27,470
two generations ground out a third, and

1023
01:03:28,780 –> 01:03:32,580
they ground out a third, marching quite frankly to the drum

1024
01:03:32,580 –> 01:03:36,060
of religion. The kind of

1025
01:03:36,060 –> 01:03:39,700
religion that in our post World War II, postmodern,

1026
01:03:39,700 –> 01:03:43,500
secular mindset, we don’t really understand. We don’t really understand.

1027
01:03:43,580 –> 01:03:47,340
Even religious people these days, even Christians these days don’t understand how deeply

1028
01:03:47,340 –> 01:03:50,940
Christian people were back in the day.

1029
01:03:52,540 –> 01:03:55,180
And we don’t understand. So we don’t appreciate

1030
01:03:56,280 –> 01:03:59,240
why the Native Americans

1031
01:04:00,040 –> 01:04:03,160
and the Native peoples were deprived of their religion.

1032
01:04:04,760 –> 01:04:08,120
Because back then the dominant society

1033
01:04:09,000 –> 01:04:12,400
understood very deeply the power of

1034
01:04:12,400 –> 01:04:16,080
religion, whether we understand it or not, is actually an

1035
01:04:16,080 –> 01:04:19,720
irrelevancy. They got it and that’s why

1036
01:04:20,200 –> 01:04:24,000
they banned it. I am not saying that this was a good thing

1037
01:04:24,000 –> 01:04:27,600
or bad thing. I’m merely pointing this out as a historical fact.

1038
01:04:28,880 –> 01:04:32,360
By the way, just so that, you know, it wasn’t just the Native

1039
01:04:32,360 –> 01:04:35,960
Americans that were deprived of freedom of religion. It was also the African Americans that

1040
01:04:35,960 –> 01:04:39,760
were deprived of freedom of religion, as were the

1041
01:04:39,760 –> 01:04:43,400
Irish when they showed up a little bit later. They were deprived of, not

1042
01:04:43,400 –> 01:04:46,560
deprived of, but they were severely curtailed in their Catholicism

1043
01:04:47,450 –> 01:04:50,970
and the Italians were also severely

1044
01:04:50,970 –> 01:04:54,090
curtailed in the practicing of their Catholicism.

1045
01:04:55,050 –> 01:04:58,890
Let’s not, let’s not forget one of the. One of the races that

1046
01:04:58,890 –> 01:05:02,530
were suppressed probably more than. I wouldn’t say more

1047
01:05:02,530 –> 01:05:06,210
than any of us, but it goes under the radar

1048
01:05:06,210 –> 01:05:09,770
quite a bit. Is that the Chinese influence in, in the United States

1049
01:05:09,930 –> 01:05:13,530
during that time frame and how much they were suppressed and, and

1050
01:05:13,530 –> 01:05:17,380
really not given. They were definitely not given religious freedom either?

1051
01:05:17,380 –> 01:05:20,860
Oh, absolutely not. Absolutely not. They were allowed to build the

1052
01:05:20,860 –> 01:05:23,740
railroads and shut up. Yeah, exactly.

1053
01:05:24,940 –> 01:05:28,620
So we have to, we have to sort of put these things

1054
01:05:29,420 –> 01:05:33,100
in the appropriate context of

1055
01:05:33,500 –> 01:05:37,020
the times in which people. People lived

1056
01:05:37,020 –> 01:05:40,140
and the things in which they believe. Doesn’t mean that we have to adopt these

1057
01:05:40,140 –> 01:05:42,460
beliefs. It just means we have to put them in the context of it so

1058
01:05:42,460 –> 01:05:46,300
that we understand it. So with that being said in the Battle of the

1059
01:05:46,300 –> 01:05:49,940
Greasy Grass occurring, what

1060
01:05:49,940 –> 01:05:53,780
was the big, I guess, lesson for

1061
01:05:53,780 –> 01:05:57,620
the Lakota that came out of this battle and the

1062
01:05:57,620 –> 01:06:00,340
subsequent things? We’ll talk a little bit about this in our next section here as

1063
01:06:00,340 –> 01:06:04,020
we sort of wind down. But what were the big lessons that the Lakota

1064
01:06:04,020 –> 01:06:07,420
learned from. From this, from this battle?

1065
01:06:09,270 –> 01:06:12,470
Well, I think the, the. One of the biggest.

1066
01:06:13,190 –> 01:06:15,990
Well, first of all, the lesson. One of the lessons is,

1067
01:06:17,270 –> 01:06:21,110
is very guerrilla like warfare, right? Meaning, like, you know

1068
01:06:21,110 –> 01:06:24,870
this area better than anybody else, so you have an advantage.

1069
01:06:25,029 –> 01:06:28,310
This is where the whole term home field advantage comes from, right?

1070
01:06:29,270 –> 01:06:32,870
And that, and that no one person is bigger than

1071
01:06:32,870 –> 01:06:36,690
the group. So the fact that Custer always felt

1072
01:06:36,690 –> 01:06:40,370
he was superior and always thought that he always had the upper hand

1073
01:06:40,370 –> 01:06:43,770
because he had numbers and technology and all this other stuff

1074
01:06:44,090 –> 01:06:47,930
didn’t matter. When you have, when you have the quote,

1075
01:06:47,930 –> 01:06:51,450
unquote, the home field advantage on, on your side and the,

1076
01:06:51,450 –> 01:06:54,970
the, that whole, the whole thought process

1077
01:06:55,050 –> 01:06:58,610
of, of, you know, we are stronger together than we are

1078
01:06:58,610 –> 01:07:02,290
apart, right? So the, the idea that they’re separating their, their

1079
01:07:02,290 –> 01:07:06,070
battalion natives didn’t do that. We were able to fight. Like, I just think

1080
01:07:06,070 –> 01:07:08,590
that there was a lot of lessons to be learned. And again, you can look

1081
01:07:08,590 –> 01:07:11,870
back, there’s a lot, there’s a lot of written

1082
01:07:14,190 –> 01:07:17,310
content and contextual references

1083
01:07:17,870 –> 01:07:21,230
to literally that particular Native

1084
01:07:21,230 –> 01:07:24,870
battle and subsequent battles afterwards

1085
01:07:24,870 –> 01:07:28,670
and how our military leaders viewed a battlefield,

1086
01:07:29,140 –> 01:07:32,980
right? Like whether it was Eisenhower or, you know,

1087
01:07:32,980 –> 01:07:36,260
Patton, like a lot of those guys were taught about,

1088
01:07:37,220 –> 01:07:40,500
about those battles because some of the, some of the military,

1089
01:07:41,060 –> 01:07:43,980
and even to this day, they say that Sitting Bull was probably one of the

1090
01:07:43,980 –> 01:07:47,140
best military leaders ever, right? Because

1091
01:07:47,540 –> 01:07:51,220
knowing your people, knowing where they should be, knowing how to manip.

1092
01:07:51,220 –> 01:07:54,660
How to manually. How to manipulate. Not manipulate,

1093
01:07:55,460 –> 01:07:59,260
how to maneuver them. Sorry. Being able to

1094
01:07:59,260 –> 01:08:03,060
maneuver people in, in massive quantities all at once

1095
01:08:03,060 –> 01:08:06,780
and structure the, the battle and the

1096
01:08:06,780 –> 01:08:10,420
battle just played out exactly the way they expected it to, right? Like having

1097
01:08:10,420 –> 01:08:14,220
that predictive analytical brain, not necessarily predictive analytics

1098
01:08:14,220 –> 01:08:17,980
the way we think of them today, but having that mental capacity to be able

1099
01:08:17,980 –> 01:08:21,020
to say, I’m looking at this thing as a whole and how to do that.

1100
01:08:21,020 –> 01:08:24,740
Now, a lot of that went away with a very

1101
01:08:25,220 –> 01:08:28,940
particular invention that was not readily

1102
01:08:28,940 –> 01:08:32,660
available to natives and that the wars of the west, so to speak.

1103
01:08:32,660 –> 01:08:35,700
So from 1870 to 1890, when they basically concluded,

1104
01:08:36,500 –> 01:08:40,340
which was the Gatling gun. Right. So being able to, instead of having

1105
01:08:40,340 –> 01:08:44,180
rifles that you’re caulking and shooting and reloading, you know, 12

1106
01:08:44,180 –> 01:08:48,000
bullets or eight bullets at a time, whatever it was, and then shooting, out

1107
01:08:48,000 –> 01:08:51,520
comes this military technology that just says,

1108
01:08:51,680 –> 01:08:55,320
we’re just going to spin this wheel and we’re going to shoot a thousand bullets

1109
01:08:55,320 –> 01:08:59,000
in a matter of minutes. That, that really just changed the

1110
01:08:59,000 –> 01:09:02,520
landscape of the west, because if that gun was never invented, I think we might

1111
01:09:02,520 –> 01:09:05,800
be living in a different time. I think. I think things would be a little

1112
01:09:05,800 –> 01:09:09,600
bit different. But there was no way for anybody to compete against that. Like,

1113
01:09:09,600 –> 01:09:12,480
you know, this wasn’t. I mean, we literally had

1114
01:09:13,430 –> 01:09:17,190
warriors on horseback with bows and arrows that can shoot arrows almost

1115
01:09:17,190 –> 01:09:20,550
as fast as a gun, as a person could shoot a six gun. Right. Like,

1116
01:09:20,790 –> 01:09:23,590
so they’re going, bam, bam, bam. You’re going

1117
01:09:25,270 –> 01:09:29,109
like, I, I understand the gun was faster. I’m not suggesting it was, but

1118
01:09:29,110 –> 01:09:32,870
the speed in which we could shoot arrows was he. Like, it was

1119
01:09:32,950 –> 01:09:36,150
essentially a fair fight at that point. Right. So it was more about

1120
01:09:36,550 –> 01:09:40,319
military strategy and positioning and how you could maneuver things.

1121
01:09:40,719 –> 01:09:44,439
And once that Gatling gun came in, it was pretty much the end of the,

1122
01:09:44,439 –> 01:09:48,159
the war in the west, so to speak. And, and even, even cannons,

1123
01:09:48,159 –> 01:09:51,519
by the way, because somebody would, Somebody had said to me one time recently,

1124
01:09:52,319 –> 01:09:55,838
well, what about cannons? Because cannons, you shoot that cannonball, and it’s.

1125
01:09:56,319 –> 01:10:00,119
Right. Remember what the cannonball did at that point in history? It just

1126
01:10:00,119 –> 01:10:03,879
basically went through. It did not explode. Like we think of

1127
01:10:03,879 –> 01:10:07,680
AS missiles and RPGs and stuff like that today. Right. Like, you fire

1128
01:10:07,680 –> 01:10:11,520
an rpg. Yes. It launched, it hits a building, blows up the building. A

1129
01:10:11,520 –> 01:10:15,360
cannonball would have just went right through the building. Like, it wouldn’t blow up

1130
01:10:15,360 –> 01:10:18,840
the building. Right. It would just go right through. So, yes, if you have a

1131
01:10:18,840 –> 01:10:22,680
field of people, you could take out a, a straight line of people

1132
01:10:22,680 –> 01:10:26,360
with one cannonball. Sure. But if you

1133
01:10:26,360 –> 01:10:30,080
know that cannonball is coming and you just move 6 inches to the left

1134
01:10:30,080 –> 01:10:33,600
or 6 inches to the right, you’re safe. With a Gatling

1135
01:10:33,600 –> 01:10:37,280
gun, that didn’t happen. You could literally spray and pray.

1136
01:10:37,280 –> 01:10:40,440
Right. Like, you just literally spray the field and you could take out

1137
01:10:41,240 –> 01:10:44,400
dozens and dozens and dozens of people, whether they move 6 inches left or right

1138
01:10:44,400 –> 01:10:48,200
or not. It didn’t Matter, Right. So I think, I think to your point,

1139
01:10:48,200 –> 01:10:51,640
what we learned like on that battlefield was that

1140
01:10:52,520 –> 01:10:56,320
we, we had, we had power. We had power. As long as we stood

1141
01:10:56,320 –> 01:11:00,080
together, we could beat the U.S. cavalry. If we stood together, if

1142
01:11:00,080 –> 01:11:03,600
we had enough numbers and we matched them one for one, we could win. As

1143
01:11:03,600 –> 01:11:07,160
a matter of fact, there were other battles before greasy grass

1144
01:11:07,320 –> 01:11:10,920
that you’d, you’d learn about, you know, 40

1145
01:11:10,920 –> 01:11:13,960
native warriors taking out a hundred U. S.

1146
01:11:13,960 –> 01:11:17,720
Cavalrymen. Those battles actually happened again, home field advantage.

1147
01:11:17,720 –> 01:11:21,200
We knew the area better. We knew how to, we know where and when to

1148
01:11:21,200 –> 01:11:24,120
pop up and how to get from point A to point B without being seen

1149
01:11:24,120 –> 01:11:27,690
and all this stuff. That was easy. So as long as we stood together and

1150
01:11:27,690 –> 01:11:31,170
we can coordinate, we can coordinate through the, the,

1151
01:11:31,330 –> 01:11:35,130
the playing field, we would be okay between the Gatling gun and the,

1152
01:11:35,130 –> 01:11:38,890
the telegraph, those two things, because again, we didn’t have a way to communicate

1153
01:11:38,890 –> 01:11:42,650
with each other outside of messengers, but these guys

1154
01:11:42,650 –> 01:11:46,410
were able to communicate from fort to fort with telegraph. So those two inventions

1155
01:11:46,410 –> 01:11:49,170
alone literally changed the way the west was won,

1156
01:11:50,450 –> 01:11:53,910
so, so to speak. Right. So, so it

1157
01:11:53,910 –> 01:11:57,230
becomes a thing where. And, and by the way, the, his entire history of

1158
01:11:57,310 –> 01:12:00,510
warfare is a technology gets invented

1159
01:12:00,830 –> 01:12:04,390
and then, you know, somebody gets basically the

1160
01:12:04,390 –> 01:12:08,110
enemy, whoever the enemy is on either side of that technology, that

1161
01:12:08,350 –> 01:12:11,790
technological advance, the enemy is

1162
01:12:11,790 –> 01:12:15,230
surprised or the enemy is, is shocked, the enemy’s taken

1163
01:12:15,230 –> 01:12:18,930
aback. And then they, they, they either steal the technology

1164
01:12:19,170 –> 01:12:22,770
and try to use it for themselves, or they ignore the technology

1165
01:12:23,010 –> 01:12:26,850
and go about their business, or they

1166
01:12:26,850 –> 01:12:30,650
try to overcome that technology with some technology of

1167
01:12:30,650 –> 01:12:34,330
their own. We’re seeing this currently with the Ukrainian and Russian war. I

1168
01:12:34,330 –> 01:12:38,010
mean, the use of drones in that war is going to

1169
01:12:38,010 –> 01:12:41,810
set the tone for the next 25 years of warfare.

1170
01:12:42,610 –> 01:12:45,650
We are now entering the period of drone warfare.

1171
01:12:46,690 –> 01:12:50,130
Do you still need a human being on the ground, boots on the ground, to

1172
01:12:50,130 –> 01:12:53,810
occupy a space? Absolutely. For sure, a robot

1173
01:12:53,810 –> 01:12:56,090
won’t be able to do it, an LLM won’t be able to do it, and

1174
01:12:56,090 –> 01:12:58,970
a drone won’t be able to do it, but you could sure as hell use

1175
01:12:58,970 –> 01:13:02,450
those tools. And again, we’re seeing this in the Ukrainian Russian war.

1176
01:13:02,690 –> 01:13:06,050
You can surely use those tools to

1177
01:13:06,050 –> 01:13:09,330
advance tactically and logistically across

1178
01:13:09,730 –> 01:13:13,500
a battlefield space, including, by the way, cyberspace and

1179
01:13:13,500 –> 01:13:17,300
information space. Right? To dominate that. Talking about the telegraph,

1180
01:13:17,300 –> 01:13:20,900
that’s, that’s the beginning of domination of the information space. And so you can

1181
01:13:20,900 –> 01:13:24,500
dominate the information space, you can dominate the cyberspace, and you can dominate the

1182
01:13:24,500 –> 01:13:28,300
physical space, particularly with drones, then you can just move

1183
01:13:28,300 –> 01:13:31,940
your people in. And now you have less. But this is again, this is,

1184
01:13:31,940 –> 01:13:35,420
this is what’s going to end. There will be, there will be responses to that.

1185
01:13:35,420 –> 01:13:39,260
You know, and we’ve mentioned this several times in this podcast,

1186
01:13:39,260 –> 01:13:42,580
Hasan, the more things change, the more things stay the same, right? It’s like so

1187
01:13:42,580 –> 01:13:46,260
the Gatling gun, telegraph. Then we moved into World War I with

1188
01:13:46,260 –> 01:13:49,820
the, the tanks and everybody was like, what the hell’s a tank? And then all

1189
01:13:49,820 –> 01:13:52,540
of a sudden the tanks winning wars and then World War II, it becomes

1190
01:13:53,100 –> 01:13:56,940
nuclear. Although I would argue even before the nuclear

1191
01:13:56,940 –> 01:14:00,460
there were some advanced technologies that were playing the game. When it came to,

1192
01:14:02,060 –> 01:14:05,780
you know, air, you know, dogfights in the

1193
01:14:05,780 –> 01:14:09,340
air and stuff like that. There was some technological advances that were starting to

1194
01:14:09,620 –> 01:14:13,300
put an advantage to one side or the other before the, even nuclear. But

1195
01:14:13,300 –> 01:14:17,140
then after, after that came stealth, stealth

1196
01:14:17,140 –> 01:14:20,780
technology. And then after stealth came. But to your point, it’s every

1197
01:14:20,780 –> 01:14:24,420
war and conflict, it’s, it’s, there’s something that pops up

1198
01:14:24,420 –> 01:14:28,140
that says, well, so now we know who’s going to win this war. Like

1199
01:14:28,140 –> 01:14:31,980
it’s just, like, it just happens like that, right? Like we, like, we know, we

1200
01:14:31,980 –> 01:14:35,710
know and then. Exactly. You know, there’s other so. And, and

1201
01:14:36,670 –> 01:14:40,030
there. So. Yeah, so. So I think.

1202
01:14:40,350 –> 01:14:43,750
Did we learn something from greasy grass? Yes, I think it was short lived though.

1203
01:14:43,750 –> 01:14:47,310
And I think the reason it was short lived because of those technology advances that

1204
01:14:47,390 –> 01:14:50,110
we had on the other side of the coin. And we were so adamant about

1205
01:14:50,110 –> 01:14:53,870
staying true to our tradition and culture that we weren’t worried about the technological

1206
01:14:53,870 –> 01:14:57,630
advances. No, that didn’t mean we didn’t trade for guns. I guess we went and

1207
01:14:57,630 –> 01:15:01,350
trade for. Right. Oh yeah, that seemed normal. It seemed like it was

1208
01:15:01,350 –> 01:15:04,190
like, you know, we can shoot guns from a, from the horseback. So it seemed

1209
01:15:04,190 –> 01:15:07,830
normal when once we started using or seeing weapons that came without

1210
01:15:07,830 –> 01:15:11,310
horseback, it didn’t seem normal to us. So we just kind of kept

1211
01:15:11,470 –> 01:15:14,030
to your point. We just kind of kept doing what we’re doing and tried to

1212
01:15:14,030 –> 01:15:17,790
use our advantages to our advantage, which would have been element of surprise, knowing

1213
01:15:17,790 –> 01:15:21,550
the landscape, like all that stuff would have still given us at least a slight

1214
01:15:21,550 –> 01:15:25,030
advantage in, in, in skirmishes, but not

1215
01:15:25,030 –> 01:15:28,750
necessarily in the overall war. Well, and I was having a conversation

1216
01:15:28,750 –> 01:15:32,090
with somebody and then we’ll go back to the book here for our last segment.

1217
01:15:32,090 –> 01:15:35,410
So I was having a conversation with somebody a couple weeks ago

1218
01:15:35,730 –> 01:15:39,570
and I had to sort of remind them that, that

1219
01:15:39,570 –> 01:15:43,210
the west didn’t really quote Unquote, close, such as it

1220
01:15:43,210 –> 01:15:46,530
were, until the 1920s or even the 1930s

1221
01:15:47,010 –> 01:15:50,370
in this country and that.

1222
01:15:50,770 –> 01:15:54,170
And. And they sort of. Because they’re not from America, so they sort of made

1223
01:15:54,170 –> 01:15:57,660
the leap. They went, oh, so you guys are still a young

1224
01:15:57,660 –> 01:16:01,220
country? And I said,

1225
01:16:01,220 –> 01:16:05,060
well, okay. I mean, that. That’s short. That’s one way

1226
01:16:05,060 –> 01:16:08,620
of interpreting that. That’s. I guess that’s one interpretation among many interpretations.

1227
01:16:08,700 –> 01:16:12,300
Sure, you could say that. Yeah. From

1228
01:16:12,300 –> 01:16:13,740
a continental

1229
01:16:15,500 –> 01:16:19,260
landmass, sort of, for lack of a better

1230
01:16:19,260 –> 01:16:23,100
term, ownership perspective. Sure. Okay. Or unification perspective.

1231
01:16:23,100 –> 01:16:26,830
Sure. Okay. Yeah. You can. You can say that I

1232
01:16:26,830 –> 01:16:28,870
tie that idea deeper into,

1233
01:16:32,390 –> 01:16:35,030
you know, the current challenges that we are having with our.

1234
01:16:35,910 –> 01:16:38,430
Our. And I think this is also part of what’s at the root of our

1235
01:16:38,430 –> 01:16:41,750
anxiety and depression, our boredom, because there’s. There’s.

1236
01:16:42,790 –> 01:16:46,350
If we’re not going to fight somebody else, we’re going to fight each other. And

1237
01:16:46,350 –> 01:16:49,920
we get real bored real quick. We saw this with COVID with people. Like, people

1238
01:16:49,920 –> 01:16:53,520
were bored. Like, literally a month after lockdowns, the

1239
01:16:53,520 –> 01:16:56,200
riots started because people were bored. They got to the end of Netflix

1240
01:16:57,320 –> 01:17:01,120
to a previous conversation we were having court. Like, people got

1241
01:17:01,120 –> 01:17:03,240
to the end of Netflix within like a month. And then they were done. And

1242
01:17:03,240 –> 01:17:05,440
they were like, get me the heck out of here. I need to go. This

1243
01:17:05,440 –> 01:17:08,920
is. I mean, this is. This is. This is. This is the

1244
01:17:08,920 –> 01:17:12,680
strain. This is a combination of the strain of Patrick Henry and

1245
01:17:13,080 –> 01:17:16,700
like, all the people that push west off the East Coast. It’s.

1246
01:17:16,700 –> 01:17:20,140
It’s that. It’s that. That cussedness that

1247
01:17:21,100 –> 01:17:24,700
I live up in the Great Smoky Mountains. Don’t come bother me, Ness. Like,

1248
01:17:24,700 –> 01:17:28,340
it’s. It’s all of that. And you could only lock that up in a

1249
01:17:28,340 –> 01:17:32,020
bottle for so long or narcotize it with.

1250
01:17:32,020 –> 01:17:35,500
With drugs or bad food or the chemicals in the food

1251
01:17:35,740 –> 01:17:39,540
or TV or pornography or stock quotes

1252
01:17:39,540 –> 01:17:43,220
or whatever the distractions are. You can only bottle that. That thing up for so

1253
01:17:43,220 –> 01:17:46,670
long before Americans will do in general,

1254
01:17:47,230 –> 01:17:50,990
one of two things. They will either turn on themselves, which

1255
01:17:50,990 –> 01:17:53,910
we have done that in the past, or we will turn on each other. We

1256
01:17:53,910 –> 01:17:57,470
will figure out reasons to fight each other. And I think that’s

1257
01:17:57,470 –> 01:17:58,670
fundamental to.

1258
01:18:01,710 –> 01:18:04,350
Well, I think of the bit from. I think I sent this to you

1259
01:18:05,550 –> 01:18:09,310
on July 4th. The bit from Bill Murray and Stripes. Right? That

1260
01:18:09,310 –> 01:18:12,820
whole bit and stripes. We’re mongrels. We’re the

1261
01:18:12,820 –> 01:18:16,660
worst of every single country came here. We were the people that

1262
01:18:16,660 –> 01:18:19,460
could not get along the other countries. Like, no, you got to Go. You got

1263
01:18:19,460 –> 01:18:21,580
to get out. You can’t stay.

1264
01:18:24,140 –> 01:18:27,940
Even, Even the ones that came here unwillingly, Even my ancestors that came

1265
01:18:27,940 –> 01:18:31,500
here unwillingly, we were brought to the

1266
01:18:31,500 –> 01:18:35,180
shore because the slave traders didn’t go in. They didn’t go into

1267
01:18:35,260 –> 01:18:38,880
Africa. Everybody knows this. They stood on the shore and

1268
01:18:38,880 –> 01:18:42,600
people were brought out to them. Right? We were brought out to them.

1269
01:18:44,280 –> 01:18:47,920
You gotta go. And I’m making a joke about this, but it’s.

1270
01:18:47,920 –> 01:18:50,920
It’s absolutely. I’m the descendant of people who had to leave,

1271
01:18:52,920 –> 01:18:56,760
and we all came here. And so because we’re

1272
01:18:57,080 –> 01:19:00,360
a bunch of mongrels on this continent

1273
01:19:01,160 –> 01:19:04,680
and. And Tom’s descendants are the only people. He’s the

1274
01:19:04,680 –> 01:19:07,800
descendant of people who. Well, I mean, you know, they came over Landbridge and then

1275
01:19:07,800 –> 01:19:10,520
the land bridge flooded, and then, like, I mean, what are you going to do

1276
01:19:10,520 –> 01:19:14,000
for 25,000, 2,500 years, whatever the heck it is, you’re just going to hang out,

1277
01:19:14,000 –> 01:19:17,799
right? Because how are you going to get back? Right? Like, we walked across.

1278
01:19:17,799 –> 01:19:21,160
We’re not going to build a boat. It’s. It’s a big ocean.

1279
01:19:22,040 –> 01:19:24,200
That’s a lot of. That’s a lot of effort. We might as well just stay

1280
01:19:24,200 –> 01:19:27,640
here and build the entire civilizations that we could build here.

1281
01:19:28,220 –> 01:19:32,060
My point is, people like this, people like us,

1282
01:19:33,100 –> 01:19:36,740
you got to give us something to do. You got to give us something

1283
01:19:36,740 –> 01:19:40,140
to do. Whether it’s manifest destiny, cultural myth,

1284
01:19:40,940 –> 01:19:44,500
something. And so this gets to my question, which we actually didn’t talk about in

1285
01:19:44,500 –> 01:19:48,260
the. In the last episode we did on Sitting Bull, but we mentioned it in

1286
01:19:48,260 –> 01:19:52,020
Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. We sort of talked about it as a counterfactual

1287
01:19:52,020 –> 01:19:55,450
question. But I’m going to ask it again because we always have new listeners, always

1288
01:19:55,450 –> 01:19:58,010
have people listening who aren’t going to go back and go through the archive. It’s

1289
01:19:58,010 –> 01:20:01,210
fine. I’m gonna ask the

1290
01:20:01,210 –> 01:20:05,050
counterfactual. The Gatling gun shows up.

1291
01:20:05,050 –> 01:20:08,770
Okay, I grant you that. That was the Gatling gun and the telegraph. Those were

1292
01:20:08,770 –> 01:20:12,570
the two things. If I could build a back to

1293
01:20:12,570 –> 01:20:16,330
the future time machine, build a DeLorean, Tom and I are going to go

1294
01:20:16,330 –> 01:20:19,290
back. We’re going to go back to 1868.

1295
01:20:20,900 –> 01:20:24,740
All the warriors, a bunch of AK47s. Exactly. We’re going to give

1296
01:20:24,740 –> 01:20:26,980
them. No, no, we’re going to give them the AK47, so we can’t give them

1297
01:20:26,980 –> 01:20:29,700
cell phones because the infrastructure doesn’t exist. That’d be pointless. But

1298
01:20:30,660 –> 01:20:34,260
we’re going to give them AK47s and we’re going to give them,

1299
01:20:35,220 –> 01:20:39,060
I don’t know, but we’re

1300
01:20:39,060 –> 01:20:42,900
gonna, we’re gonna explain in the concept of Morse code. That’s because that they have

1301
01:20:42,900 –> 01:20:46,460
to have the concept first before the technology comes. So we’re explaining the concept of

1302
01:20:46,460 –> 01:20:49,750
dot, dot, dash and then we’re just gonna, we’re just gonna come forward now

1303
01:20:49,750 –> 01:20:53,310
obviously because of time travel and

1304
01:20:54,110 –> 01:20:57,190
creating divergence and we’re not gonna come back to the same spot in the timeline.

1305
01:20:57,190 –> 01:20:59,990
I might not even exist. You may not even exist. You may not even be

1306
01:20:59,990 –> 01:21:03,709
here. Which is the great thing about time travel. My, my 8 year old

1307
01:21:03,709 –> 01:21:07,390
boy is now sort of futzing over this in his head. It’s fascinating to him.

1308
01:21:09,070 –> 01:21:12,590
Would it have worked out differently

1309
01:21:13,000 –> 01:21:16,760
between the native tribes and the US cavalry

1310
01:21:16,760 –> 01:21:20,520
in the West? This is the counterfactual question. If

1311
01:21:20,680 –> 01:21:23,400
everything had been equal, if the technology had been equal,

1312
01:21:25,160 –> 01:21:28,000
would it have worked out differently? Would we be living in a different America? Would

1313
01:21:28,000 –> 01:21:31,800
we have a mini country like Quebec right inside of our own

1314
01:21:31,800 –> 01:21:35,280
country? I mean, I would like to think so. I mean,

1315
01:21:35,280 –> 01:21:38,800
obviously this is all speculation. And you can’t, it’s a counterfactual. Yeah, you

1316
01:21:38,800 –> 01:21:42,550
can’t, you can’t know for sure. But I would, I would like

1317
01:21:42,550 –> 01:21:46,350
to think that, I mean think about it right now, like even, like our

1318
01:21:46,350 –> 01:21:49,990
least populous state is like South Dakota I believe, right?

1319
01:21:50,150 –> 01:21:53,670
Yes. We fought so hard to take the natives out of there, but yet

1320
01:21:53,990 –> 01:21:57,830
we didn’t really want it. Like we didn’t

1321
01:21:57,830 –> 01:22:01,550
do anything with. Okay, so like, so if we, I think, I think it

1322
01:22:01,550 –> 01:22:05,390
has less to do with, with weaponry and equality than it

1323
01:22:05,390 –> 01:22:08,930
has to do with greed. Because let’s just say for, for,

1324
01:22:10,050 –> 01:22:13,730
let’s just say for, for shits and giggles that we did go back in time

1325
01:22:13,730 –> 01:22:17,490
and we informed the US Government that there’s no gold there,

1326
01:22:17,650 –> 01:22:21,170
there’s no reset there that you really want. And the government

1327
01:22:21,170 –> 01:22:24,890
went, yeah, you’re right, never mind, forget it. We’re just going to go back down

1328
01:22:24,890 –> 01:22:27,570
to San Francisco, right? And we’re just going to make a straight line across it.

1329
01:22:28,050 –> 01:22:31,690
Even that would have been, I mean, and that wouldn’t have been warfare to do

1330
01:22:31,690 –> 01:22:35,200
so. That wouldn’t have been equal equality in warfare. That would have just been equality

1331
01:22:35,200 –> 01:22:38,800
of information. Because the re. One of the

1332
01:22:38,800 –> 01:22:42,640
reasons is this whole. They, they push natives

1333
01:22:42,640 –> 01:22:46,160
out because they thought there was gold there. They wanted, they wanted the

1334
01:22:46,160 –> 01:22:49,920
resource, let’s face it, they didn’t want land. How many farms

1335
01:22:49,920 –> 01:22:53,520
do you see in north and South Dakota that are big enough that can

1336
01:22:53,520 –> 01:22:57,280
sustain A significant amount of life. Right. Like not, not

1337
01:22:57,280 –> 01:23:01,030
at that part of the upper Midwest. That’s not. The winters are too harsh.

1338
01:23:01,030 –> 01:23:04,870
The, like, it’s, it’s. They, they didn’t want the land for, for the right

1339
01:23:04,870 –> 01:23:08,590
reasons. They wanted, they just wanted access to the, to the, the, the

1340
01:23:08,590 –> 01:23:12,350
resources like, like gold and, and timber came later. I

1341
01:23:12,350 –> 01:23:14,710
get like, you know, there was some timber things there. But, but again,

1342
01:23:15,830 –> 01:23:19,350
if, if you take that equation, take that out of the equation, I think

1343
01:23:19,670 –> 01:23:23,510
we would add a very different landscape there and natives wouldn’t have been

1344
01:23:23,510 –> 01:23:27,060
restricted to these fractions of, of land that

1345
01:23:27,060 –> 01:23:30,740
we’re, that they’re currently restricted to, you know, in the

1346
01:23:30,740 –> 01:23:34,140
Dakotas and Montana and that, that area of the country, the upper

1347
01:23:34,140 –> 01:23:37,980
Midwest in general. So, and again, like I said, it’s not like we have a

1348
01:23:37,980 –> 01:23:40,620
lot of Eurocentric people that move there. I mean

1349
01:23:41,820 –> 01:23:45,500
if you look at, I, I find the same thing

1350
01:23:45,660 –> 01:23:49,020
in the Southwest, by the way. So the areas of like

1351
01:23:49,020 –> 01:23:52,700
Nevada and, and south Nevada, Arizona,

1352
01:23:52,700 –> 01:23:56,140
New Mexico, where there’s still a very heavy native population, where,

1353
01:23:56,300 –> 01:23:59,100
I mean, let’s face it, a lot of people don’t want to live there. It’s

1354
01:23:59,260 –> 01:24:03,020
hot. It’s too dang hot. Like Arizona, Phoenix,

1355
01:24:03,020 –> 01:24:06,540
Tucson, it’s 120 degrees right now. Why? Well,

1356
01:24:06,939 –> 01:24:10,780
one skin, like you don’t want this

1357
01:24:10,780 –> 01:24:14,340
for yourself, right? So it’s like so, so, but, but,

1358
01:24:14,340 –> 01:24:18,020
but again we have population there because at one point or another we thought the

1359
01:24:18,020 –> 01:24:21,760
resources were there. We were gold, gold mines all over the place down in that

1360
01:24:21,760 –> 01:24:25,120
area of the country. So I think that if we said

1361
01:24:25,440 –> 01:24:29,160
there’s no gold there, you’re never going to find gold there. And there

1362
01:24:29,160 –> 01:24:32,000
would, there, there would have been, there would have been maybe a couple of pass

1363
01:24:32,000 –> 01:24:35,040
through towns, right, Getting to San Francisco.

1364
01:24:35,680 –> 01:24:39,000
But even the population density of this country, if you look at it, it’s all

1365
01:24:39,000 –> 01:24:42,640
on the coastline. Yeah, it’s essentially all on the coastline,

1366
01:24:42,640 –> 01:24:46,410
including Texas. By the way, if you look the coast, Texas is way more populated

1367
01:24:46,410 –> 01:24:49,970
than the inland part of Texas. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. West Texas. West Texas is

1368
01:24:49,970 –> 01:24:53,290
a nightmare. I mean, until all my listeners in West Texas. I get it, like

1369
01:24:53,290 –> 01:24:57,010
you’re living there, you make it a life. It’s fine. It’s ridiculous.

1370
01:24:57,170 –> 01:24:59,490
Anything away from the fact that you love it, you can still love it. It’s

1371
01:24:59,490 –> 01:25:03,130
fine. You can still love it. It’s fine. It’s fine. Think about

1372
01:25:03,130 –> 01:25:06,890
it. Our country is really settled on the coasts. So I

1373
01:25:06,890 –> 01:25:10,130
think if we were, if we were able to get that information to people early

1374
01:25:10,130 –> 01:25:13,640
on and said, there’s no gold in them. There’s like, just stay away from.

1375
01:25:14,120 –> 01:25:16,680
I, I think it would have been very different. I don’t even think it would

1376
01:25:16,680 –> 01:25:20,080
have been. I, I, the, the fighting and the battles and all that stuff. I

1377
01:25:20,080 –> 01:25:22,960
just think it would. I don’t think it would. It wouldn’t been worth it. It

1378
01:25:22,960 –> 01:25:26,640
would have been. It would not have been worth it for anybody to fight. Well,

1379
01:25:26,640 –> 01:25:27,640
and I wonder if.

1380
01:25:33,640 –> 01:25:37,480
So one of the harder ideas that you come to

1381
01:25:37,480 –> 01:25:41,180
when you real. When you read the history of native

1382
01:25:41,180 –> 01:25:44,780
tribes in America and their engagement not only with the US Government,

1383
01:25:44,860 –> 01:25:48,540
but also their engagement with the US Cavalry and

1384
01:25:48,540 –> 01:25:52,300
then moving backwards through time into their

1385
01:25:52,380 –> 01:25:56,140
relations with the French and the British and then even

1386
01:25:56,140 –> 01:25:59,620
the Spanish, who, by the way, just as a side note, the Comanches ran the

1387
01:25:59,620 –> 01:26:03,380
Spanish around for 200 years in the American Southwest, and the

1388
01:26:03,380 –> 01:26:07,050
Spanish could never conquer those people. Switch to Tom’s

1389
01:26:07,050 –> 01:26:10,530
point. Partially, it was the weather and the environment and the

1390
01:26:10,530 –> 01:26:14,330
desert coming out of Northern Mexico, but it

1391
01:26:14,330 –> 01:26:18,170
was also the fact that the Comanche are horse people. And they just,

1392
01:26:19,210 –> 01:26:22,690
they just knew if you didn’t have a horse, you’re dead in the

1393
01:26:22,690 –> 01:26:26,250
desert. Well, and they were also a lot more agile, if you think about the

1394
01:26:26,250 –> 01:26:30,050
horse, because Spaniards were horse people, too. The conquistadors all were on

1395
01:26:30,050 –> 01:26:33,590
horses. Yeah, but not like the Comanche. Right, that’s what I’m saying. They were heavily

1396
01:26:33,590 –> 01:26:37,070
armored and they were very slow, whereas the command, very agile

1397
01:26:37,070 –> 01:26:40,790
on horses. So it was a lot easier for them. It was,

1398
01:26:40,790 –> 01:26:43,990
again, a lot easier to maneuver, you know, the territory better. You can get in

1399
01:26:43,990 –> 01:26:47,030
and out of places without them seeing you. Like, there’s a lot of advantages that

1400
01:26:47,030 –> 01:26:50,790
they had. But just remember, the Comanche were horse people because

1401
01:26:50,790 –> 01:26:53,870
of the Spaniards. They. The Spaniards were the ones that brought the horses back.

1402
01:26:54,190 –> 01:26:56,430
Correct? That’s right. That’s correct.

1403
01:26:57,710 –> 01:27:00,870
And so when you look at the long,

1404
01:27:01,990 –> 01:27:05,270
for lack of a better term, sordid history of

1405
01:27:05,590 –> 01:27:09,070
European peoples and native

1406
01:27:09,070 –> 01:27:12,870
peoples, starting with the decline and fall of

1407
01:27:14,070 –> 01:27:17,790
the Aztec empire and Hernando de

1408
01:27:17,790 –> 01:27:20,550
Cortez, you know, marching inland after burning the boats,

1409
01:27:23,430 –> 01:27:25,510
it is a story of.

1410
01:27:27,780 –> 01:27:31,620
And this is the brutal truth. It is the story of civilizational

1411
01:27:32,340 –> 01:27:35,940
destruction, Decline and destruction. That’s what is the story of.

1412
01:27:36,580 –> 01:27:40,260
And it is a. It is a brutal story, and

1413
01:27:40,260 –> 01:27:43,780
it is a story that is full of sadness

1414
01:27:43,780 –> 01:27:46,980
and tears. Yet

1415
01:27:48,100 –> 01:27:51,700
it is a story that, and we talk about this a lot on our podcast,

1416
01:27:52,210 –> 01:27:55,650
is a human story because it has been repeated throughout

1417
01:27:56,690 –> 01:27:59,650
multiple civilizations and multiple cultures in humanity.

1418
01:28:00,770 –> 01:28:04,610
Does that make it right or wrong? No, it merely makes

1419
01:28:04,610 –> 01:28:08,289
it a fact how we

1420
01:28:08,290 –> 01:28:12,130
learn from it or don’t, which is usually the case.

1421
01:28:12,530 –> 01:28:16,290
We’re going to cover BH Liddell Hart’s book. Why don’t. His small

1422
01:28:16,290 –> 01:28:19,850
book, it’s got a yellow cover on my bookshelf called why Don’t We Learn from

1423
01:28:19,850 –> 01:28:23,370
History. We’re going to cover that book on this

1424
01:28:23,370 –> 01:28:27,050
podcast. Oh. Oh. Bha Delhart was

1425
01:28:27,050 –> 01:28:30,850
a. He was a veteran of World War I, and

1426
01:28:31,010 –> 01:28:34,850
he. He was tasked, and I believe he was tasked by the

1427
01:28:34,850 –> 01:28:38,530
British, I remember correctly, with designing strategy for World War II based

1428
01:28:38,530 –> 01:28:42,130
on his experiences in World War I. I might have that a little. A little

1429
01:28:42,130 –> 01:28:45,570
bit squirreled up with him. Might be confusing it with somebody else, but either way,

1430
01:28:46,500 –> 01:28:50,260
he was an amateur historian and a military tactician, and

1431
01:28:50,260 –> 01:28:53,620
he was constantly frustrated. I do have this correct. He was constantly

1432
01:28:53,620 –> 01:28:57,340
frustrated by the lack of people listening to him about the

1433
01:28:57,340 –> 01:29:01,140
historical precedents that had been set and the historical

1434
01:29:01,140 –> 01:29:04,740
patterns that had been set based upon certain decisions that were made

1435
01:29:05,220 –> 01:29:09,020
in the past in various annals of military history, which he

1436
01:29:09,020 –> 01:29:12,700
was very well educated about. And people just wouldn’t take his advice. And they kept

1437
01:29:12,700 –> 01:29:16,470
right on just doing stupid things, stupid stuff that would clearly not work. It

1438
01:29:16,470 –> 01:29:19,990
drove him crazy. And so he wrote. He wrote this book,

1439
01:29:20,150 –> 01:29:23,190
why Don’t We Learn from History? And I love it. I’ve got. I have a

1440
01:29:23,190 –> 01:29:25,430
feeling I’m going to love this. I’m going to love this book.

1441
01:29:28,390 –> 01:29:31,510
And we see that playing out here with.

1442
01:29:33,510 –> 01:29:36,950
With the Native American tribes. You know, we just. We see this decline of

1443
01:29:36,950 –> 01:29:40,560
civilization and this destruction of a civilization. And

1444
01:29:45,200 –> 01:29:47,880
I don’t know what to say about it other than that. I think you have

1445
01:29:47,880 –> 01:29:51,120
to look at it, and I think we have to face it. I think

1446
01:29:51,120 –> 01:29:54,680
individuals have to draw their own conclusions based on where they

1447
01:29:54,680 –> 01:29:58,440
sit in the boat, quote, unquote, as it were, of the United States. On

1448
01:29:58,440 –> 01:30:02,080
this. You know, if you can trace your ancestry back to the Germans

1449
01:30:02,320 –> 01:30:05,900
who came over on some boat in the 1880s, after the

1450
01:30:05,900 –> 01:30:09,500
Civil War and after the wars of the west, and then

1451
01:30:09,500 –> 01:30:13,300
you immediately got into your Conestoga wagon and

1452
01:30:13,380 –> 01:30:14,740
drove out to Nebraska,

1453
01:30:18,500 –> 01:30:21,660
this may not mean anything to you. If you’re the descendants of those folks, it

1454
01:30:21,660 –> 01:30:24,020
may not, because you showed up too late.

1455
01:30:25,780 –> 01:30:28,660
If you’re a person of African American descent listening to this,

1456
01:30:30,340 –> 01:30:33,910
and I know many African Americans that struggle with Native

1457
01:30:33,910 –> 01:30:37,430
American history, many, because it becomes a

1458
01:30:38,070 –> 01:30:41,750
weird race to the bottom on who can compete with being

1459
01:30:42,150 –> 01:30:45,110
oppressed the most. The oppression Olympics then kick in

1460
01:30:45,750 –> 01:30:48,710
and it’s like, okay, what are we doing here?

1461
01:30:50,630 –> 01:30:54,070
So you may struggle with this. If you’re a person who can trace your

1462
01:30:54,070 –> 01:30:57,190
ancestry back to the Puritans or back to

1463
01:30:57,190 –> 01:31:00,420
Mayflower or Jamestown or. Or the Plymouth Compact,

1464
01:31:01,060 –> 01:31:04,780
you may have a sense of guilt, or you may experience nothing at all.

1465
01:31:04,780 –> 01:31:08,340
Or if you are a person who can trace your ancestry back to

1466
01:31:09,300 –> 01:31:12,900
folks who came out of Russia in the early 20th

1467
01:31:12,980 –> 01:31:16,820
century as part of the immigrant waves that came over from central Europe,

1468
01:31:17,460 –> 01:31:19,940
this may have no resonance with you at all.

1469
01:31:21,700 –> 01:31:25,390
It may just be a historical thing that just happened. But either

1470
01:31:25,390 –> 01:31:28,950
way, we should at least look at it right. That way we can

1471
01:31:28,950 –> 01:31:32,110
mark what civilizational decline

1472
01:31:32,990 –> 01:31:36,710
actually practically looks like. And that gets me to

1473
01:31:36,710 –> 01:31:40,390
the end of this book or close to the end of the

1474
01:31:40,390 –> 01:31:43,550
book. And I’m going to

1475
01:31:45,470 –> 01:31:49,230
read some pieces. I’m going to kind of jump around a little bit, but

1476
01:31:53,560 –> 01:31:56,840
the historical accounts. So I’m going to pick up here. This is going to be.

1477
01:31:57,480 –> 01:32:01,280
This chapter is entitled the Murder. The historical accounts of

1478
01:32:01,280 –> 01:32:05,120
the death of Tatanka Iotake present us with a narrative that flows smoothly from

1479
01:32:05,120 –> 01:32:08,920
point to point, often glossing over some. Some glaring discrepancies.

1480
01:32:09,880 –> 01:32:13,680
These accounts are from a single source. Stanley vestal, who in

1481
01:32:13,680 –> 01:32:17,480
1930 came to the Standing Rock Sioux reservation to look for the descendants of

1482
01:32:17,480 –> 01:32:20,920
Tatana Itake. Wanting to write a biography of Tatanka

1483
01:32:20,920 –> 01:32:24,640
Iotake, he interviewed One Bull. The accounts provided by One

1484
01:32:24,640 –> 01:32:28,440
Bull are not accurate. One Bull adopted Walter Campbell as his son

1485
01:32:28,440 –> 01:32:32,240
so Campbell would not doubt his story. To

1486
01:32:32,240 –> 01:32:35,720
make their father more credible, One Bull’s daughters fabricated the story that he was adopted

1487
01:32:35,720 –> 01:32:38,600
as a son by Tatanka Yutake through the

1488
01:32:40,280 –> 01:32:43,800
Hunkaipi Yankee. Yeah. Honkapi ceremony.

1489
01:32:44,450 –> 01:32:48,090
No Lakota person would go through the Hanyakopi ceremony with a person who is already

1490
01:32:48,090 –> 01:32:51,930
a blood relative. The had acted as

1491
01:32:51,930 –> 01:32:55,010
a mentor to his sister’s son in the same way that his father’s brother, Four

1492
01:32:55,010 –> 01:32:58,810
Horrens, had taught him. Stanley Vestal never spoke of

1493
01:32:58,810 –> 01:33:02,410
any. Spoke to any of the direct descendants of Tatanka Iotake. Vestal believed the words

1494
01:33:02,410 –> 01:33:06,010
of One Bull and penned the book Sitting Bull, champion of the

1495
01:33:06,010 –> 01:33:09,730
Sioux, from One Bull’s accounts. Every book author and historian since that time has

1496
01:33:09,730 –> 01:33:13,370
treated this novel as a historical document, but in reality is a work of

1497
01:33:13,370 –> 01:33:17,090
fiction. The story of the death. Oh, go

1498
01:33:17,090 –> 01:33:20,650
ahead. I was going to say you’re breaking up a little bit. Oh, okay.

1499
01:33:20,810 –> 01:33:23,530
Sorry. The story of the death of Tatake Itake,

1500
01:33:24,570 –> 01:33:28,090
written by and from the point of view of Anon Lakota, does not Correspond to

1501
01:33:28,090 –> 01:33:31,730
the reports of three eyewitnesses to the event. These witnesses were the children of

1502
01:33:31,730 –> 01:33:35,450
Hatake who were present when their father was. And this

1503
01:33:35,450 –> 01:33:39,260
is. This is the terrible part. Am I. I’m still coming through.

1504
01:33:39,260 –> 01:33:42,580
Good. And this is a terrible part. Who were present when their father was

1505
01:33:42,820 –> 01:33:46,580
murdered. Now here

1506
01:33:46,580 –> 01:33:50,340
we gonna enter into a little bit of. A little bit of the controversy here.

1507
01:33:51,300 –> 01:33:54,900
Arnie lapointe’s mother learned of these stories from her mother, Standing Holy

1508
01:33:55,220 –> 01:33:58,100
and from her uncles, John Sitting Bull and Henry Little Soldier.

1509
01:33:58,820 –> 01:34:01,860
Standing Holy was the youngest daughter of Tatake Iotake

1510
01:34:02,340 –> 01:34:06,050
and seen by her nation. John Sitting Bull, whose Lakota name

1511
01:34:06,050 –> 01:34:09,370
was refuses them, was a deaf mute and was the son of seen by her

1512
01:34:14,090 –> 01:34:17,770
loose before they married Tatanka Iotake and each had a son from their

1513
01:34:17,770 –> 01:34:21,490
first marriage, Itaka Iyotake treated the boys as his own. They

1514
01:34:21,490 –> 01:34:25,250
were present when Tatake Itake was murdered on

1515
01:34:25,250 –> 01:34:28,490
the morning of December 15, 1890.

1516
01:34:30,660 –> 01:34:33,780
Their story is quite different from the One Bull version.

1517
01:34:34,820 –> 01:34:38,420
So this is where controversy really

1518
01:34:38,420 –> 01:34:40,980
begins, Right? So the Lakota,

1519
01:34:42,100 –> 01:34:45,940
between the battle of Greasy Grass and the murder of Tatanke Iotake

1520
01:34:47,780 –> 01:34:51,540
were basically running away from

1521
01:34:51,540 –> 01:34:55,180
the U.S. cavalry, traipsing back and forth over the

1522
01:34:55,180 –> 01:34:59,000
Canadian border, the American border. And. And they got caught, right?

1523
01:34:59,560 –> 01:35:01,640
Going. Going back and forth across the border.

1524
01:35:03,320 –> 01:35:07,040
Once they were caught, they were put on a reservation. And thus the

1525
01:35:07,040 –> 01:35:10,800
decline really does. The decline really

1526
01:35:10,800 –> 01:35:14,440
began. Hold on.

1527
01:35:14,680 –> 01:35:17,960
Go. All right, let’s pick this up

1528
01:35:19,080 –> 01:35:21,560
after Libby’s waved his hands around.

1529
01:35:22,530 –> 01:35:24,930
3, 2, 1.

1530
01:35:28,210 –> 01:35:31,686
Tatanka Iotake was murdered on the morning of December

1531
01:35:31,827 –> 01:35:35,250
15, 1890. Their story is quite different

1532
01:35:35,410 –> 01:35:39,130
from the One Bull version. All accounts

1533
01:35:39,130 –> 01:35:42,930
agree that 43 metal breasts Indian police came to the

1534
01:35:42,930 –> 01:35:46,450
sleeping camp of Tatan Iotake in the early morning hours of December 15th.

1535
01:35:46,610 –> 01:35:50,370
From that point on, however, the accounts diverge. Some of the more dramatic reports say

1536
01:35:50,370 –> 01:35:54,090
that the police burst into the cabin and forced Yotake from his bed,

1537
01:35:54,250 –> 01:35:57,810
then dragged the naked elder out into the road. Since it was a

1538
01:35:57,810 –> 01:36:01,570
December winter morning, this seems highly unlikely. Instead, according

1539
01:36:01,570 –> 01:36:04,810
to his stepsons, the police knocked on the door and asked him to come outdoors.

1540
01:36:05,050 –> 01:36:08,770
They waited for him while he got dressed, putting on his shirt and leggings. In

1541
01:36:08,770 –> 01:36:11,930
support of this, the Smithsonian Institution has returned

1542
01:36:12,330 –> 01:36:16,000
to ernie lapointe. In December 2007, the leggings taken off the

1543
01:36:16,000 –> 01:36:19,640
corpse of Tatanke Iotake. Inside the cabin were

1544
01:36:19,640 –> 01:36:23,440
Tatanka Iotake’s wives and children, including his two stepsons and his son

1545
01:36:23,440 –> 01:36:26,880
Crowfoot. Crowfoot was a young man of 17 at the time, not a 14 year

1546
01:36:26,880 –> 01:36:30,360
old boy. As is often reported, when

1547
01:36:30,360 –> 01:36:33,880
Tatanka Iotake walked toward the door of the cabin,

1548
01:36:33,880 –> 01:36:37,200
Crowfoot also jumped up and picked up his weapon. He told his father he would

1549
01:36:37,200 –> 01:36:40,850
protect him. I will stand with you. At the door,

1550
01:36:40,850 –> 01:36:44,530
Tatanka Itake paused and turned around and sang a farewell song to his

1551
01:36:44,530 –> 01:36:48,370
family. He sang, I am a man and wherever I lie is my

1552
01:36:48,370 –> 01:36:51,850
own. As he turned and stepped out the door.

1553
01:36:51,850 –> 01:36:55,170
Crowfoot walked behind him carrying his weapon. Those

1554
01:36:55,170 –> 01:36:58,850
inside the cabin said it seemed like forever. When the gunfire

1555
01:36:58,850 –> 01:37:02,650
erupted, Tataka Iotake fell in front of the door and

1556
01:37:02,650 –> 01:37:06,450
a few seconds later, Crowfoot fell next to his father. Six silent eaters of

1557
01:37:06,450 –> 01:37:10,260
the Midnight Strong Heart Society died along with their friend Chief

1558
01:37:10,260 –> 01:37:13,380
and Sundancer that cold December morning.

1559
01:37:14,900 –> 01:37:18,460
Here is the final discrepancy in the story. Many reports, especially those of the surviving

1560
01:37:18,460 –> 01:37:21,660
Indian police, say the Crowfoot was hiding under a bed in the cabin. The police

1561
01:37:21,660 –> 01:37:25,140
hauled him out, crying and pleading for his life. Bullhead, the leader of the Indian

1562
01:37:25,140 –> 01:37:28,100
police, ordered Crowfoot’s death and his police officers killed the boy.

1563
01:37:28,900 –> 01:37:32,580
This is similar to the fabricated story of Tataka Iotake being dragged

1564
01:37:32,580 –> 01:37:36,230
naked into his yard. It seems it seeks to humiliate the memory of

1565
01:37:36,230 –> 01:37:39,990
his son. Crowfoot died outside the cabin. There

1566
01:37:39,990 –> 01:37:43,430
was a crying child present, but it was 12 year old William, his

1567
01:37:43,430 –> 01:37:47,070
older half brother. Crowfoot had already died with his father.

1568
01:37:47,470 –> 01:37:50,350
It is not too hard to understand why the boy was afraid for his life.

1569
01:37:50,750 –> 01:37:53,390
The other story is a complete fabrication.

1570
01:37:55,150 –> 01:37:58,670
The immediate family members were all horrified witnesses to the death of Tatanke

1571
01:37:58,670 –> 01:38:02,430
Itaker. As the United States army unit assigned to back up

1572
01:38:02,430 –> 01:38:05,110
the Indian police moved into the camp, the family of the other residents fled for

1573
01:38:05,110 –> 01:38:08,950
their lives. Now there were not only the metal breasts

1574
01:38:08,950 –> 01:38:11,150
to fear, but also the soldiers.

1575
01:38:12,750 –> 01:38:15,710
As they fled across the Grand River. The family and about 200 other members of

1576
01:38:15,710 –> 01:38:19,550
the camp were intercepted by army forces which were sent in pursuit. They were

1577
01:38:19,550 –> 01:38:23,110
put under the protective custody at Fort Yates. The males,

1578
01:38:23,110 –> 01:38:26,670
ranged from 16 to 50 years of age, were incarcerated at Fort Sully

1579
01:38:26,880 –> 01:38:30,480
until the spring of 1891. McLaughlin, fearing the strong

1580
01:38:30,480 –> 01:38:33,960
Heart Society, feared the Strong Heart Society. And he assumed these males are part of

1581
01:38:33,960 –> 01:38:37,360
the society and would retaliate for the death of Tatanke

1582
01:38:37,360 –> 01:38:41,200
Itake. Even the army have been a bit surprised the intensity of

1583
01:38:41,200 –> 01:38:44,880
the reaction by the other Hunkpapa against Tataka and Itanki’s family.

1584
01:38:45,120 –> 01:38:47,840
Many of the people were angry because their loved ones had died in the process

1585
01:38:47,840 –> 01:38:51,680
of arresting Tatanka Itake. In one case, a father and son

1586
01:38:51,680 –> 01:38:54,740
fought against each Other, the son on the side of the police and the father

1587
01:38:54,820 –> 01:38:58,500
with his old friend, the chief. By this time, many of the Hunkpapa had

1588
01:38:58,500 –> 01:39:01,660
relented to the demands of McLaughlin and wanted to be, quote, unquote, good

1589
01:39:01,660 –> 01:39:05,340
Indians. They adopted Christianity and they

1590
01:39:05,340 –> 01:39:09,059
followed the white man’s way, opposed the

1591
01:39:09,059 –> 01:39:12,540
white man’s way of life. He and his followers wanted to be left alone to

1592
01:39:12,540 –> 01:39:16,220
live the old way. This rift within the Hunkapapa was

1593
01:39:16,220 –> 01:39:20,060
devastating. It is more than a little ironic that the United States army

1594
01:39:20,060 –> 01:39:23,380
became the guardians of the family of one of their most steadfast

1595
01:39:23,380 –> 01:39:26,340
opponents, protecting them from their own

1596
01:39:26,900 –> 01:39:27,300
people.

1597
01:39:30,980 –> 01:39:34,020
And that is where the.

1598
01:39:36,580 –> 01:39:39,620
Such as where the legacy, I guess, of Tatanke Itake

1599
01:39:41,700 –> 01:39:45,460
begins to be involved and begins to be embroiled in. In

1600
01:39:45,460 –> 01:39:48,950
controversy. Now, just as a note, there are two.

1601
01:39:49,990 –> 01:39:53,710
No, almost three. Is it three? No,

1602
01:39:53,710 –> 01:39:57,110
there’s two. There’s two appendixes in the back of this book.

1603
01:39:57,350 –> 01:40:01,110
One appendix covers a letter, features a letter

1604
01:40:01,190 –> 01:40:05,030
from Ed Mossman, superintendent of the Standing Rock Indian School, to the Commissioner of

1605
01:40:05,030 –> 01:40:08,770
Indian affairs in Washington, D.C. written on August 25,

1606
01:40:08,890 –> 01:40:12,670
1922. And then the second appendix includes

1607
01:40:12,670 –> 01:40:16,470
a partial copy of the repatriation document regarding a lock

1608
01:40:16,470 –> 01:40:18,570
of hair and leggings belonging to Sitting Bull.

1609
01:40:20,400 –> 01:40:24,240
And this was a repatriation document that was created in

1610
01:40:24,240 –> 01:40:27,760
compliance with the National Museum of the American Indian act of 1989.

1611
01:40:28,880 –> 01:40:31,480
And this was generated in

1612
01:40:31,480 –> 01:40:34,759
2007 for a

1613
01:40:34,759 –> 01:40:38,560
reparation. A repriation. Sorry. No,

1614
01:40:38,560 –> 01:40:42,200
not reparation. Repatriation. Sorry. Repatriation

1615
01:40:42,200 –> 01:40:45,980
request for a lock

1616
01:40:45,980 –> 01:40:49,700
of hair and leggings that were obtained as a loan from Dr. Horace Dieble

1617
01:40:49,700 –> 01:40:53,460
in 1896. Archival evidence indicates the

1618
01:40:53,460 –> 01:40:57,140
items were acquired from Sitting bull’s body by Dr. Diebel, an army surgeon at Fort

1619
01:40:57,140 –> 01:41:00,940
Yates, in 1890. In 1999, the National Museum of National

1620
01:41:00,940 –> 01:41:04,700
History of Natural History informed all federally recognized Sioux

1621
01:41:04,700 –> 01:41:08,340
tribes that a lock of hair and leggings of Sydney Bull Run loan to the

1622
01:41:08,340 –> 01:41:11,900
National Museum of National History to initiate consultation with the tribes

1623
01:41:12,140 –> 01:41:15,860
on the items. And that is where some modern

1624
01:41:15,860 –> 01:41:17,340
controversy begins.

1625
01:41:19,580 –> 01:41:19,980
So

1626
01:41:24,940 –> 01:41:28,780
I have little to say

1627
01:41:30,700 –> 01:41:34,340
about that particular aspect of

1628
01:41:34,340 –> 01:41:38,100
this. I think the repatriation piece is part of the modern

1629
01:41:38,100 –> 01:41:41,820
controversy that Ernie Lapointe is having with his. With his.

1630
01:41:41,820 –> 01:41:44,260
With one side of the family versus the other side of the family.

1631
01:41:48,100 –> 01:41:51,540
Maybe the best question here to ask as we round the corner

1632
01:41:51,780 –> 01:41:52,180
is,

1633
01:41:55,700 –> 01:41:58,660
and maybe the context of framing it is this. Many

1634
01:41:59,140 –> 01:42:02,500
natural history museums, many not just in the United States, but

1635
01:42:02,500 –> 01:42:05,730
globally, right. Have

1636
01:42:06,210 –> 01:42:09,250
returned items that

1637
01:42:09,330 –> 01:42:13,170
colonialists, colonializers took

1638
01:42:13,170 –> 01:42:16,370
from native lands right back to

1639
01:42:16,850 –> 01:42:20,610
their countries. The biggest case in point of this is the French,

1640
01:42:20,610 –> 01:42:23,890
right? So Napoleon, when he was walking around Egypt

1641
01:42:24,530 –> 01:42:28,210
looking at the Sphinx and shooting the nose off of it with his troops,

1642
01:42:29,420 –> 01:42:32,620
took a bunch of, not a bunch, but took numerous items

1643
01:42:33,180 –> 01:42:36,740
out of the great pyramids. And I believe the Egyptian government has

1644
01:42:36,740 –> 01:42:40,340
gotten back several of those items and is still in the process of

1645
01:42:40,340 –> 01:42:43,500
getting more. We also have items that were

1646
01:42:43,500 –> 01:42:46,620
returned that were stolen recently

1647
01:42:47,580 –> 01:42:51,420
from museums in Iraq and even

1648
01:42:51,500 –> 01:42:55,070
museums, interestingly enough, in Kuwait and other

1649
01:42:55,070 –> 01:42:57,750
places in the Middle east by Americans

1650
01:42:58,630 –> 01:43:02,350
when the, when the wars of the last 20

1651
01:43:02,350 –> 01:43:05,750
years, the Iraq War and the Afghanistan war were going on, right?

1652
01:43:06,310 –> 01:43:09,830
And so we have this sense, right, that

1653
01:43:10,870 –> 01:43:14,710
people should return, or governments anyway should return

1654
01:43:15,110 –> 01:43:17,430
items that belonged to people

1655
01:43:19,030 –> 01:43:22,860
that were colonized or that were, or whose civilizations were destroyed

1656
01:43:22,860 –> 01:43:26,700
or impacted. Now, what those people. This is a huge

1657
01:43:26,700 –> 01:43:29,060
piece of the controversy. You see this

1658
01:43:30,660 –> 01:43:34,380
in cases where items are returned to

1659
01:43:34,380 –> 01:43:38,100
particular places and then those items which were of

1660
01:43:38,740 –> 01:43:42,460
historical or anthropological significance begin to deteriorate

1661
01:43:42,460 –> 01:43:46,140
and eventually decline because they are not taken care of by the people

1662
01:43:46,140 –> 01:43:47,780
who originally wanted them back.

1663
01:43:50,000 –> 01:43:53,800
I’m not saying that this is happening with anything in with Native American tribes.

1664
01:43:53,800 –> 01:43:57,520
I’m merely saying that this is something that you see. So

1665
01:43:58,880 –> 01:44:02,480
what is your posture as a person who’s knee deep in this

1666
01:44:02,800 –> 01:44:05,920
on the returning of items to Native American,

1667
01:44:07,200 –> 01:44:10,480
for lack of a better term, Native American tribes or Native American peoples?

1668
01:44:11,600 –> 01:44:14,810
And how should the government,

1669
01:44:15,130 –> 01:44:18,850
particularly the US Government, either work with those tribes

1670
01:44:18,850 –> 01:44:22,490
to preserve those items and how should they be

1671
01:44:22,490 –> 01:44:26,330
displayed? What’s the best way to do this? I have no insight into this

1672
01:44:27,450 –> 01:44:30,890
at all. I have zero insight into this. I don’t know what to think because

1673
01:44:30,890 –> 01:44:34,490
I don’t know enough about it beyond merely what I read and

1674
01:44:35,530 –> 01:44:39,050
what I’ve been able to see just from the popular culture.

1675
01:44:39,570 –> 01:44:41,970
So what are some of your thoughts around this?

1676
01:44:45,250 –> 01:44:49,050
I think this is a really hard, a

1677
01:44:49,050 –> 01:44:51,410
really hard question to answer,

1678
01:44:54,050 –> 01:44:57,730
to answer simply, right? Like, it’s really

1679
01:44:57,730 –> 01:45:01,450
not like. So I’ll give you an example. There’s

1680
01:45:01,450 –> 01:45:04,210
a, there was a, there was a building

1681
01:45:04,930 –> 01:45:08,410
here in the city that I live in locally that

1682
01:45:08,650 –> 01:45:12,330
when they were building the foundation, this was probably back in the middle 80s

1683
01:45:12,330 –> 01:45:15,930
or middle early to middle 80s. So I think it was like 80, 80, 45,

1684
01:45:15,930 –> 01:45:19,770
somewhere around 86. As they were digging the foundation, they

1685
01:45:19,770 –> 01:45:23,529
found four bodies. And

1686
01:45:23,529 –> 01:45:27,330
of course, because they’re digging deep into the ground, this is a foundation for

1687
01:45:27,330 –> 01:45:31,130
a building that’s going to stand, you know, 10, 20, 10, 15 stories

1688
01:45:31,130 –> 01:45:34,690
tall. So this is not a foundation that they’re digging three feet. So these

1689
01:45:34,690 –> 01:45:38,150
bodies were definitely ancient, right? Yeah,

1690
01:45:38,150 –> 01:45:41,790
yeah. Their first reaction was, I should

1691
01:45:41,790 –> 01:45:45,310
probably preface this by saying that this building was being built by one of the

1692
01:45:45,310 –> 01:45:48,670
local universities. So their first

1693
01:45:48,670 –> 01:45:52,070
instinct was, oh, we found ancient

1694
01:45:52,870 –> 01:45:55,430
bones. We should run a lot of tests on these.

1695
01:45:56,710 –> 01:46:00,430
And instead of. Instead of their first reaction

1696
01:46:00,430 –> 01:46:04,080
being we may have just disturbed a

1697
01:46:04,080 –> 01:46:07,920
burial site that was for, you know, like, we

1698
01:46:07,920 –> 01:46:11,520
should probably handle this with care. That wasn’t there and

1699
01:46:11,520 –> 01:46:15,320
that wasn’t there. That. That wasn’t their instinct. Their instinct was, oh, this

1700
01:46:15,320 –> 01:46:18,840
will be fun. Let’s. Let’s run some tests on these. Let’s carbon date them. Let’s.

1701
01:46:18,840 –> 01:46:22,440
Blah, blah, blah, whatever. So they did

1702
01:46:22,440 –> 01:46:25,280
that. They actually took the. The bodies to

1703
01:46:26,080 –> 01:46:29,560
the university’s testing lab, whatever. They did all the. All the tests they wanted to

1704
01:46:29,560 –> 01:46:33,120
run on them, and they said, well, now what? Well, they stuck them in a

1705
01:46:33,120 –> 01:46:36,960
drawer somewhere for another decade, and then they went

1706
01:46:36,960 –> 01:46:40,600
to a museum for another decade, and eventually somebody

1707
01:46:40,600 –> 01:46:44,440
went, hey, should we give these back to the people that they

1708
01:46:44,440 –> 01:46:47,880
belong to so they can, like, again,

1709
01:46:47,880 –> 01:46:51,600
repatriate them, like, put them back into the ground where they. Whatever. So

1710
01:46:51,600 –> 01:46:54,600
eventually. Eventually they got around to contacting us and saying,

1711
01:46:55,490 –> 01:46:58,490
we have these four bodies. Here’s where they came from. Here’s where they, you know,

1712
01:46:58,490 –> 01:47:02,330
here’s what they’ve been through. Would you

1713
01:47:02,330 –> 01:47:04,410
like, you know, what do you want us to do with them? And we said,

1714
01:47:04,410 –> 01:47:08,130
well, we want them back so we can bury them

1715
01:47:08,370 –> 01:47:11,970
the way that they’re supposed to be buried by our culture, by our

1716
01:47:11,970 –> 01:47:15,130
tradition. So that’s what they did. They gave them to us, and we went and

1717
01:47:15,130 –> 01:47:17,250
we did ceremony and blah, blah, blah, whatever,

1718
01:47:19,650 –> 01:47:23,270
which. So in the one hand,

1719
01:47:25,590 –> 01:47:29,350
so I. I have this debate with people all the time because there’s, like,

1720
01:47:29,590 –> 01:47:33,350
there’s value. There is. There’s a certain amount of

1721
01:47:33,350 –> 01:47:37,190
value to knowing what you don’t

1722
01:47:37,190 –> 01:47:41,030
know and being able to. Being able to go

1723
01:47:41,030 –> 01:47:44,750
to an archaeologist or an anthropologist and saying, what do you see here?

1724
01:47:44,750 –> 01:47:47,570
What can you learn from this? Versus,

1725
01:47:48,850 –> 01:47:52,250
like, like, like the. The Egyptian. The

1726
01:47:52,250 –> 01:47:55,890
Egyptian thing. That bothers the crap out of me. Okay, you

1727
01:47:55,890 –> 01:47:59,570
found a burial site, and now we want to open it up and explore

1728
01:47:59,570 –> 01:48:02,610
it and run a bunch of tests on what it’s. You’re. It.

1729
01:48:03,410 –> 01:48:07,250
If somebody went to a Catholic cemetery

1730
01:48:08,130 –> 01:48:11,890
and just said, oh, but this body hasn’t been uncovered for a hundred years.

1731
01:48:11,890 –> 01:48:14,890
Let’s dig it up and see what we can find out, like, nobody would be

1732
01:48:14,890 –> 01:48:18,670
okay. With that. That nobody would be okay with

1733
01:48:18,670 –> 01:48:22,430
that. But yet the older and older and older that

1734
01:48:22,430 –> 01:48:25,430
we get, the more likely it is for us to be okay with it. Because

1735
01:48:25,430 –> 01:48:29,070
you use the ed. You use the foundation of education to be the. The. The

1736
01:48:29,070 –> 01:48:32,070
bad guy. Right. We want to learn. We want to learn. We want to learn.

1737
01:48:32,070 –> 01:48:35,910
Fine. That I. That’s understandable. If you

1738
01:48:35,910 –> 01:48:39,590
uncover a body in the middle of nowhere that you

1739
01:48:39,590 –> 01:48:43,080
didn’t think anybody lived, but when you’re. When you’re in an area,

1740
01:48:43,160 –> 01:48:46,880
that’s the foundation of the area. You already know again,

1741
01:48:46,880 –> 01:48:50,640
here in the northeast, we had a tremendous native community up here. You

1742
01:48:50,640 –> 01:48:54,160
knew for a fact that, like, it’s been historically

1743
01:48:54,160 –> 01:48:57,760
documented that there was a native village here. You already know what you need to

1744
01:48:57,760 –> 01:49:01,320
know. There’s no excuse that in my brain to go and

1745
01:49:01,320 –> 01:49:04,920
desecrate those bodies. Same thing with, like, okay, the very

1746
01:49:04,920 –> 01:49:08,640
first Egyptian burial. I understand you didn’t know anybody

1747
01:49:08,640 –> 01:49:10,920
lived there. So you want to unbury. Like you want to see what you see.

1748
01:49:11,430 –> 01:49:14,910
Once you’re done with that, why do you have to uncover every single sarcophagus that

1749
01:49:14,910 –> 01:49:18,710
ever existed like that? At some point, the educational

1750
01:49:18,710 –> 01:49:22,510
value decreases to the point where it’s not good enough anymore. You need

1751
01:49:22,510 –> 01:49:26,350
to leave those things alone. Right. Like so now, now, mind you,

1752
01:49:26,350 –> 01:49:29,750
now the other side of this. So which, by the way,

1753
01:49:30,150 –> 01:49:33,430
the idea in the story, like what you read in the book, that

1754
01:49:33,510 –> 01:49:37,070
anybody was naked and all that, well, then how did the doctor take the

1755
01:49:37,070 –> 01:49:40,670
leggings off his body to put him in the museum? Right, yeah, okay.

1756
01:49:40,670 –> 01:49:43,510
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there’s that. But anyway,

1757
01:49:44,870 –> 01:49:48,230
which tells you which side of the story you really need to believe. Right. Like

1758
01:49:48,310 –> 01:49:52,110
so, you know, there’s obviously some exaggeration going on and something which you and I

1759
01:49:52,110 –> 01:49:54,990
talked about this. I think we talked about it before we hit the record button

1760
01:49:54,990 –> 01:49:58,630
where we did. Yeah, like, you know, there’s.

1761
01:49:58,630 –> 01:50:02,470
There’s this weird thing that happens with storytelling that when you’re looking

1762
01:50:02,470 –> 01:50:06,230
at a. At an event, if there are five people viewing the same

1763
01:50:06,230 –> 01:50:09,970
event, you’re going to get five stories of how that event

1764
01:50:10,690 –> 01:50:14,490
out, you know, portrayed and how it end. That doesn’t mean that there’s not

1765
01:50:14,490 –> 01:50:17,890
factual data in there. The factual data. Right.

1766
01:50:18,130 –> 01:50:21,850
Happened on this day. The factual data was. Sitting Bull was killed outside

1767
01:50:21,850 –> 01:50:25,690
of his cabin. The factual data, like, there’s facts in there that you cannot

1768
01:50:25,690 –> 01:50:29,090
deny. One side of any one of those perspective, finger

1769
01:50:29,090 –> 01:50:32,690
pointing, but. Or story, sorry, storytelling. But.

1770
01:50:33,730 –> 01:50:36,930
But you start learning as you sift through some of the minutiae and again, like

1771
01:50:36,930 –> 01:50:40,640
I said, so a doctor in 1896 gives away what he took off the

1772
01:50:40,640 –> 01:50:43,560
body of the dead body of sitting Bull, which is the leggings and the lock

1773
01:50:43,560 –> 01:50:47,240
of hair. Well, then obviously he wasn’t naked. So you, you start to understand which

1774
01:50:47,240 –> 01:50:50,760
side or which story is more likely to be believable

1775
01:50:50,760 –> 01:50:54,440
in scenarios anyway. But get back to your question. So

1776
01:50:54,679 –> 01:50:58,120
I, I fight with this question. I fight with this question a lot about

1777
01:50:58,520 –> 01:51:02,160
how to handle the, how to

1778
01:51:02,160 –> 01:51:05,920
handle the reappropriation of it is. Is a lot easier than how to

1779
01:51:05,920 –> 01:51:09,490
handle something being uncovered. Right, right. Being uncovered.

1780
01:51:09,970 –> 01:51:13,770
Again, depending on where you are and what’s being. If you’ve never

1781
01:51:13,770 –> 01:51:17,570
seen life again, you’re in the middle of the Sonora, the middle of

1782
01:51:17,570 –> 01:51:20,810
the desert or whatever, and you, you uncover a body and you can tell that

1783
01:51:20,810 –> 01:51:24,570
it’s an ancient body and you’ve never seen bodies here before. I get it. You

1784
01:51:24,570 –> 01:51:28,290
have. There’s an educational value to that. As much as I don’t. I

1785
01:51:28,290 –> 01:51:31,930
still don’t like it, but I understand and I appreciate the fact that there’s some

1786
01:51:31,930 –> 01:51:35,620
educational value to learning and understanding what, who was there and

1787
01:51:35,620 –> 01:51:39,460
what people were there. But once you do that, give the

1788
01:51:39,460 –> 01:51:41,780
people. Give the. Give the. The. Now

1789
01:51:42,900 –> 01:51:46,620
there’s a problem in the United States here with being able to

1790
01:51:46,620 –> 01:51:47,700
reappropriate certain

1791
01:51:50,900 –> 01:51:52,500
pieces, archival data

1792
01:51:54,900 –> 01:51:58,740
baskets, like, you know, leggings, things like that.

1793
01:51:58,980 –> 01:52:02,780
Because according to certain U. S, According to u. S. Law,

1794
01:52:02,940 –> 01:52:06,300
you have to give these back to a federally recognized tribe. Well,

1795
01:52:06,540 –> 01:52:10,260
if the tribe they find them at, like, is not the federally

1796
01:52:10,260 –> 01:52:13,780
recognized tribe and the closest tribal affiliation is a few hundred

1797
01:52:13,780 –> 01:52:17,500
miles away. It’s not the same. You can’t

1798
01:52:17,500 –> 01:52:21,260
give, you can’t give remains or tribal

1799
01:52:21,500 –> 01:52:25,300
content to a tribe that it doesn’t belong

1800
01:52:25,300 –> 01:52:27,940
to and expect them to treat it the way it’s supposed to be treated. Like,

1801
01:52:27,940 –> 01:52:31,630
it doesn’t make this. There’s a disconnect there, but the US Government has no way

1802
01:52:31,870 –> 01:52:35,670
of doing it other than, well, then we’ll just keep it. Well, like, we’ll do.

1803
01:52:35,670 –> 01:52:39,230
We’ll just keep it so they don’t go to the next level, which is, can

1804
01:52:39,230 –> 01:52:42,430
you find the people who belong in that area

1805
01:52:42,830 –> 01:52:46,630
that have descendants in that area that belong to a native group? Like, maybe

1806
01:52:46,630 –> 01:52:49,950
they’re not federally recognized, but maybe it’s a group that, that is

1807
01:52:50,270 –> 01:52:53,550
well respected in the community that they know, like, there’s no

1808
01:52:53,630 –> 01:52:57,410
foundation for them to get federal federally recognized, but they’re

1809
01:52:57,410 –> 01:53:00,530
there. Right. Like, and I’ll just give an example up Here in the Northeast, the

1810
01:53:00,530 –> 01:53:04,170
Abenaki do not have a reservation in the United States, but they

1811
01:53:04,170 –> 01:53:07,850
covered most of the Northeast, Northern Massachusetts, and above

1812
01:53:07,850 –> 01:53:10,930
Vermont. Vermont and New Hampshire were almost all.

1813
01:53:11,490 –> 01:53:15,090
All Abnaki. Northern Massachusetts was Abnaki, Western

1814
01:53:15,090 –> 01:53:18,730
Maine. But there’s no federal, federally recognized tribe. The

1815
01:53:18,730 –> 01:53:22,290
closest federally recognized tribe is the Wampanoag in the Mash, in the Mashpee area,

1816
01:53:22,910 –> 01:53:26,510
which we’re not the same people. So if you found something in. In

1817
01:53:26,510 –> 01:53:29,070
Nashua, New Hampshire, and it was native,

1818
01:53:30,350 –> 01:53:34,070
or in Lowell, Massachusetts, which was native, they’re all. That’s

1819
01:53:34,070 –> 01:53:37,750
Abenaki. But you’re going to give it to the Wampanoag. There’s a disconnect there.

1820
01:53:37,750 –> 01:53:41,470
That doesn’t make sense. It just doesn’t make sense. Right. So

1821
01:53:41,870 –> 01:53:45,350
I. I wish there was better ways to do this. I really do. I. I

1822
01:53:45,350 –> 01:53:48,230
don’t have the answer to it. At least I don’t think I have the answer.

1823
01:53:48,230 –> 01:53:50,820
I think if I. I think if we were.

1824
01:53:51,780 –> 01:53:54,580
And that’s the other thing that kind of goes back. Like,

1825
01:53:55,540 –> 01:53:59,180
we all. Saying that we are Native

1826
01:53:59,180 –> 01:54:02,980
American is like saying that somebody from France is European,

1827
01:54:03,460 –> 01:54:06,820
right? Like, it’s. It’s somebody from France, somebody from.

1828
01:54:07,380 –> 01:54:11,100
From Ireland, somebody from Portugal, somebody from Italy. They’re

1829
01:54:11,100 –> 01:54:14,580
all European, but they’re not the same. That’s the same idea here.

1830
01:54:15,020 –> 01:54:18,540
Like, people here in the Northeast were very different than the Lakota. Right. In

1831
01:54:18,780 –> 01:54:22,100
the western part of the country, we didn’t speak the same language. We didn’t interact

1832
01:54:22,100 –> 01:54:25,900
at all. We had no idea. So. And even here in the Northeast,

1833
01:54:25,900 –> 01:54:29,700
again, reappropriating content, whether it be shirts,

1834
01:54:29,700 –> 01:54:33,500
leggings, beadwork, you know, whatever, bones, for lack

1835
01:54:33,500 –> 01:54:37,060
of a better term, you can’t just go and say, oh, it’s

1836
01:54:37,060 –> 01:54:39,380
Native, so we can just give it to the next native group. They’ll treat it.

1837
01:54:39,380 –> 01:54:42,850
It’s the same thing. It doesn’t work that way. So, like it.

1838
01:54:42,850 –> 01:54:46,610
There’s. There’s some hard questions to be answered. Now, that being said,

1839
01:54:47,250 –> 01:54:50,730
do I think that Sitting Bull’s artifacts or Sitting Bull’s

1840
01:54:50,730 –> 01:54:53,930
material or, Or. Or possessions should go back to his direct

1841
01:54:53,930 –> 01:54:57,770
descendant? Absolutely. There’s no reason that you can

1842
01:54:57,770 –> 01:55:01,450
tell me that that, like, why would they not. If you’re going

1843
01:55:01,450 –> 01:55:04,450
to say, well, because Sitting Bull lived at

1844
01:55:04,770 –> 01:55:08,170
Standing Rock and his direct descendant does not live on the

1845
01:55:08,170 –> 01:55:11,660
reservation. They live. That’s not a good enough reason for me.

1846
01:55:12,060 –> 01:55:15,900
Now, if you. So why, as a government official

1847
01:55:15,980 –> 01:55:19,580
or if you’re. If you’re the. The tribal government at Standing

1848
01:55:19,580 –> 01:55:22,140
Rock and You want Sitting Bulls

1849
01:55:25,420 –> 01:55:29,260
belongings to, to be, to be buried there or to

1850
01:55:29,260 –> 01:55:32,980
be rested there or, or even to be put back in a museum there, then

1851
01:55:32,980 –> 01:55:36,800
you should be required to petition the direct descendants. You should be able

1852
01:55:36,800 –> 01:55:40,600
to like what? It’s my family’s history. I understand it’s the

1853
01:55:40,600 –> 01:55:44,160
history of the people too, but it’s my direct descendants

1854
01:55:44,160 –> 01:55:47,960
family. It should be up to me what happens to that. So I think,

1855
01:55:47,960 –> 01:55:50,320
I think there’s a. But I think there’s a lot of maneuvering and I think

1856
01:55:50,320 –> 01:55:53,760
there’s a lot of political stuff that happens and like, I don’t know. And by

1857
01:55:53,760 –> 01:55:57,520
the way, Ernie Lapointe is still alive. I mean

1858
01:55:57,520 –> 01:56:00,560
he’s, he’s still. I, I don’t know if he lives at Standing Rock or not.

1859
01:56:00,560 –> 01:56:03,410
I don’t know enough about him personally, personally to know if he lives there or

1860
01:56:03,410 –> 01:56:06,690
not. But, but yes, I believe that his grant, his great

1861
01:56:06,690 –> 01:56:10,450
grandfather’s thing should belong to him. I, I have, I

1862
01:56:10,450 –> 01:56:13,970
have items that I wear in my regalia that belonged to

1863
01:56:13,970 –> 01:56:17,809
my ancestors. Why would I not expect him to be able to. Could

1864
01:56:17,809 –> 01:56:21,530
you imagine what the amount of pridefulness or the amount of.

1865
01:56:21,770 –> 01:56:25,290
I, I don’t even know what the feeling I could think of would be

1866
01:56:25,770 –> 01:56:29,170
for him to be able to take Sitting Bull’s leggings and turn them into something

1867
01:56:29,170 –> 01:56:32,990
that he could wear today at and into ceremony or to, or to powwow or

1868
01:56:32,990 –> 01:56:36,350
something like that. Like that would be ridiculously

1869
01:56:36,350 –> 01:56:40,030
impactful. So I, I, I, I think it

1870
01:56:40,030 –> 01:56:43,390
belongs with him. I, I, I, I don’t think there should be any controversy there.

1871
01:56:44,350 –> 01:56:45,950
I think this ties into,

1872
01:56:50,030 –> 01:56:53,310
so I already mentioned on this episode our, our sort of

1873
01:56:55,790 –> 01:56:58,800
lack of understanding of the power of religion in the past.

1874
01:57:00,480 –> 01:57:03,680
I think this ties into that. Because

1875
01:57:06,240 –> 01:57:09,720
you mentioned a Catholic cemetery, right. I can

1876
01:57:09,720 –> 01:57:13,440
easily see a future not

1877
01:57:13,440 –> 01:57:16,720
very many years from now where

1878
01:57:18,320 –> 01:57:20,880
a building will be put on a Catholic cemetery

1879
01:57:23,120 –> 01:57:24,720
and no one will raise a.

1880
01:57:27,030 –> 01:57:30,870
I could easily see that happening in America. And the reason

1881
01:57:30,950 –> 01:57:34,310
why I can easily see that happening. And this is perhaps

1882
01:57:34,950 –> 01:57:36,470
some pushback on your point.

1883
01:57:39,270 –> 01:57:43,070
I think there are pockets obviously of our culture that treat death seriously and

1884
01:57:43,070 –> 01:57:45,590
treat remains seriously. However,

1885
01:57:46,870 –> 01:57:50,680
I think overall the way

1886
01:57:50,680 –> 01:57:54,120
in which we deal with aging starts with

1887
01:57:54,120 –> 01:57:57,920
aging. But aging, being elderly,

1888
01:57:58,640 –> 01:58:01,280
dying and then death itself

1889
01:58:02,320 –> 01:58:03,680
is very much

1890
01:58:06,560 –> 01:58:10,040
in the direction of, and has moved. It has stayed in the

1891
01:58:10,040 –> 01:58:13,880
direction of just put the person in the box or

1892
01:58:13,880 –> 01:58:16,480
in the wall or in the ground and move on to the next.

1893
01:58:19,140 –> 01:58:21,220
I see this when, okay,

1894
01:58:23,220 –> 01:58:25,460
one of the things I used to do is I Used to do real estate.

1895
01:58:25,460 –> 01:58:28,820
And one of the, one of the things, one of the hacks of real estate

1896
01:58:29,140 –> 01:58:31,380
is you can go to estate sale so you could talk to people about selling

1897
01:58:31,380 –> 01:58:35,220
the help, right? If you go to estate sales, very interesting.

1898
01:58:35,780 –> 01:58:39,580
Because what you see is all the stuff you talk about Egyptians with

1899
01:58:39,580 –> 01:58:43,180
sarcophagus, you see

1900
01:58:44,300 –> 01:58:46,860
what people collected in the course of their lives

1901
01:58:48,220 –> 01:58:51,420
that they attached a lot of value to,

1902
01:58:52,860 –> 01:58:56,700
but that now has a price tag on it so that their relatives can

1903
01:58:56,700 –> 01:58:59,660
pay for the funeral. Or

1904
01:59:00,940 –> 01:59:03,740
has a price tag on it because the relatives didn’t want it.

1905
01:59:05,180 –> 01:59:08,960
Or has a price tag on it because the

1906
01:59:08,960 –> 01:59:10,360
relatives wanted to make some money.

1907
01:59:12,680 –> 01:59:15,880
And you sort of, when you go to enough of those, and you experience enough

1908
01:59:15,880 –> 01:59:19,720
of those experiences and I’ve gone to enough of them,

1909
01:59:19,720 –> 01:59:23,560
I’ve had enough of those experiences and you sort of start

1910
01:59:23,560 –> 01:59:25,320
to understand that

1911
01:59:27,160 –> 01:59:29,720
the draining of the sacred from the world,

1912
01:59:31,000 –> 01:59:34,440
which came through in a, in a sort of community

1913
01:59:34,520 –> 01:59:35,720
understanding of religion,

1914
01:59:38,800 –> 01:59:42,560
which also concluded a community understanding of aging,

1915
01:59:43,280 –> 01:59:46,880
a community understanding of dying and a community understanding of death

1916
01:59:46,880 –> 01:59:50,440
itself. To your point about people being

1917
01:59:50,440 –> 01:59:53,920
populated along the coasts, I don’t know that that is

1918
01:59:58,320 –> 02:00:02,010
collectively and societally as strong a point

1919
02:00:02,080 –> 02:00:05,760
whole as it used to be. I can easily see in a hundred years

1920
02:00:06,720 –> 02:00:10,400
someone, I hate to be this

1921
02:00:10,400 –> 02:00:12,880
person. But in desecrating my grave

1922
02:00:14,400 –> 02:00:18,199
now, now I take the posture of I’m fine with that because I

1923
02:00:18,199 –> 02:00:22,000
won’t be here, the things that are me will be gone. All that will

1924
02:00:22,000 –> 02:00:25,720
be left is the sack of whatever and that’ll

1925
02:00:25,720 –> 02:00:28,960
be rotted in the ground. Maybe the femur will be left, but

1926
02:00:29,830 –> 02:00:32,870
whatever. And if I get to go out the way that, the way that I

1927
02:00:32,870 –> 02:00:35,710
want to go out, if I get to be done, if people actually follow what

1928
02:00:35,710 –> 02:00:38,150
it is that I’m going to be putting that I’m going to be, that I

1929
02:00:38,150 –> 02:00:41,830
have in my will, I’m going to be,

1930
02:00:41,830 –> 02:00:43,430
you know, burned with all my stuff.

1931
02:00:46,070 –> 02:00:49,390
So nobody has to worry about selling anything. Because the only thing that people are

1932
02:00:49,390 –> 02:00:52,670
going to care about again, I’ve been to a lot of estate sales. The only

1933
02:00:52,670 –> 02:00:55,600
things that people care about are the house maybe,

1934
02:00:56,400 –> 02:00:59,920
but really the money and the property, that’s really all they care about.

1935
02:01:00,640 –> 02:01:03,240
And otherwise they’re just going to take a bunch of my crap that I collected

1936
02:01:03,240 –> 02:01:06,080
in my life and they’re going to put it in a four ton dumpster.

1937
02:01:08,400 –> 02:01:12,080
That’s it. Yeah, I’m gone. So

1938
02:01:12,080 –> 02:01:15,600
that’s me. But that, but that’s me, right? I don’t know how we can

1939
02:01:16,240 –> 02:01:19,600
collectively as a society move

1940
02:01:20,330 –> 02:01:23,210
back towards a sacred sense of death and dying,

1941
02:01:24,810 –> 02:01:28,490
which would then translate into. And this is a really hard

1942
02:01:28,570 –> 02:01:32,250
question, I don’t know what the answer to this is, but would translate into

1943
02:01:32,730 –> 02:01:36,409
us treating the remains of people, regardless of what

1944
02:01:36,409 –> 02:01:40,090
ethnic group they came from, with a little more respect. Yeah.

1945
02:01:40,090 –> 02:01:43,410
And a little more honor. And I don’t know how we get back to that

1946
02:01:43,410 –> 02:01:47,250
as a society and culture without, without some sort of religion, return to

1947
02:01:47,250 –> 02:01:51,000
religion. Religion or something that’s transcended or sacred. Yeah. Well, fortunately

1948
02:01:51,000 –> 02:01:54,840
for us, like the, the way that we. There’s a lot, There’s

1949
02:01:54,840 –> 02:01:58,520
a lot that goes into dying for us, like the ceremony, the, the

1950
02:01:58,600 –> 02:02:02,440
present, the way the body is prepared, things like that. There’s

1951
02:02:02,440 –> 02:02:06,160
a lot to it. So, like that’s never left us. So

1952
02:02:06,160 –> 02:02:09,560
for us, I mean. I know. But again, here’s. Here we are the, the,

1953
02:02:10,680 –> 02:02:14,520
you know, to say where the minority is like an understatement.

1954
02:02:15,040 –> 02:02:18,560
Like our population in the US today is less than 3%.

1955
02:02:19,280 –> 02:02:22,760
So I think the next closest. I think the next

1956
02:02:22,760 –> 02:02:26,520
closest population I, I actually think is African American. I think it is like somewhere

1957
02:02:26,520 –> 02:02:28,960
around 13 or 14, 15.

1958
02:02:30,480 –> 02:02:34,120
Depends upon who you’re talking to. Yeah. You ask. So like, think about

1959
02:02:34,120 –> 02:02:37,360
that. That discrepancy in numbers. That’s like, like where

1960
02:02:37,600 –> 02:02:41,450
nobody cares about. Like nobody cares. Right. We’re not

1961
02:02:41,450 –> 02:02:44,890
a big enough voting population, really care about us, so.

1962
02:02:45,130 –> 02:02:48,570
But we care about ourselves. So I do think that in our community,

1963
02:02:48,890 –> 02:02:52,370
what you’re talking about still exists and which is why I take so much

1964
02:02:52,370 –> 02:02:55,970
offense to this. I, I still have a, I have a problem. I have a

1965
02:02:55,970 –> 02:02:59,810
visceral problem for with it. Like, I don’t like the idea

1966
02:02:59,810 –> 02:03:03,290
of somebody digging up other. And again, I don’t care if it’s ours. I, like

1967
02:03:03,290 –> 02:03:06,850
I, I mentioned Egypt. I know that the same thing has happened in Australia with

1968
02:03:06,850 –> 02:03:10,390
the Aboriginal people in Australia. It bothers me. It just bothers me that we

1969
02:03:10,390 –> 02:03:14,230
desecrate those areas and like areas that

1970
02:03:14,230 –> 02:03:17,950
we. That, that indigenous populations, again, what. Regardless

1971
02:03:17,950 –> 02:03:21,630
of what part of the world. Because Indigenous, Indigenous people are where they

1972
02:03:21,630 –> 02:03:24,550
are. Like United States that have. So.

1973
02:03:25,110 –> 02:03:28,910
But those areas that they deem as special or sacred or

1974
02:03:28,910 –> 02:03:32,310
religious or whatever, they’re the only ones that care about that

1975
02:03:32,870 –> 02:03:35,910
the rest of the world could care less about it. Right. The rest of the

1976
02:03:35,910 –> 02:03:39,700
world could care less what the Native American or the indigenous American people

1977
02:03:39,780 –> 02:03:43,620
find to be sacred. As a matter of fact, there have been

1978
02:03:43,940 –> 02:03:47,620
many sacred areas to Native Americans that we now have

1979
02:03:47,860 –> 02:03:51,620
cities built on. Right. Like so, you know, it’s.

1980
02:03:52,340 –> 02:03:55,900
And listen, I’m not, arg. I’m not complaining about something that happened, you know,

1981
02:03:55,900 –> 02:03:59,740
300 years ago. That’s not my point. But what my point is is that is

1982
02:03:59,740 –> 02:04:03,430
still happening today, is my point. And why can’t.

1983
02:04:03,430 –> 02:04:05,790
Why, why are we doing that? Why are we doing that to each other? Why

1984
02:04:05,790 –> 02:04:08,070
are we doing that to people? Why are we doing that? It doesn’t make any

1985
02:04:08,070 –> 02:04:08,750
sense to me.

1986
02:04:12,510 –> 02:04:13,390
Yeah. I don’t.

1987
02:04:16,110 –> 02:04:19,750
I think to your point about a minority of a minority. Right. It’s

1988
02:04:19,750 –> 02:04:22,110
a. It, it requires for the change

1989
02:04:23,470 –> 02:04:27,190
or change to occur that

1990
02:04:27,190 –> 02:04:30,760
would positively impact a minority of a minority. The

1991
02:04:30,760 –> 02:04:34,360
majority has to change for sure. And this, and this is

1992
02:04:34,360 –> 02:04:38,160
something that I understand folks who are, who are campaigning

1993
02:04:38,160 –> 02:04:41,640
for political or civil rights get

1994
02:04:41,640 –> 02:04:45,240
viscerally. It also applies

1995
02:04:45,639 –> 02:04:49,160
to spiritual things, right? Yes.

1996
02:04:49,880 –> 02:04:53,000
And I would assert that it is probably

1997
02:04:53,400 –> 02:04:57,150
not probably. I would assert there’s no qualifications here. I would assert it’s

1998
02:04:57,150 –> 02:05:00,630
more important to apply such a majority change

1999
02:05:00,950 –> 02:05:04,670
to spiritual things. We don’t have to

2000
02:05:04,670 –> 02:05:08,350
agree on the transcendent. I would prefer that we agree, but we

2001
02:05:08,350 –> 02:05:11,830
don’t have to. Let’s just acknowledge that there is a

2002
02:05:11,830 –> 02:05:14,630
transcendent and that

2003
02:05:16,950 –> 02:05:20,710
there is a requirement among us collectively,

2004
02:05:20,950 –> 02:05:24,320
majority and minority. There is a requirement for us to treat

2005
02:05:25,600 –> 02:05:28,800
not only the end of life but also the process of aging

2006
02:05:29,600 –> 02:05:33,360
with infinitely more respect than what we do, because we will.

2007
02:05:33,360 –> 02:05:37,200
All or some of my younger listeners who don’t believe if you’re

2008
02:05:37,200 –> 02:05:39,280
in your 20s and 30s, you don’t believe you’re going to get old. I didn’t

2009
02:05:39,280 –> 02:05:41,280
believe I was going to get old. You’re going to get old.

2010
02:05:43,440 –> 02:05:47,120
I hate to be the bearer of bad news because we’re all nice people. You

2011
02:05:47,120 –> 02:05:50,500
certainly do not want the alternative, which is you’re not going to make it to

2012
02:05:50,500 –> 02:05:53,580
old age and you’re going to be dead. That’s right. That’s correct.

2013
02:05:55,740 –> 02:05:59,580
But we have a culture, and we’ve had this since the 1960s with

2014
02:05:59,740 –> 02:06:03,060
when the baby boomers began to reach their, their, their

2015
02:06:03,060 –> 02:06:06,500
apotheosis of their summer. We’ve had a culture that glorifies

2016
02:06:06,500 –> 02:06:09,580
youth and, and does everything

2017
02:06:09,980 –> 02:06:12,700
possible to ignore or diminish

2018
02:06:13,660 –> 02:06:17,470
aging, illness, dying and

2019
02:06:17,470 –> 02:06:21,070
death. And maybe that’s one of the things in our next

2020
02:06:21,710 –> 02:06:24,750
upcoming historical cycle that we can afford to put away.

2021
02:06:25,870 –> 02:06:29,670
Yeah. For all of our sakes, not just the minority

2022
02:06:29,670 –> 02:06:33,310
of the minority. For all of our sakes. And to your, to your point, Hasan,

2023
02:06:33,310 –> 02:06:37,150
I think we, and we’ve talked about this several times too Aging

2024
02:06:37,310 –> 02:06:40,950
to the point of illness or death. What about the, what about the middle part?

2025
02:06:40,950 –> 02:06:44,680
Right, right. Like that 45 to 65 age

2026
02:06:44,680 –> 02:06:48,240
group that somebody in their 20s just views that as, oh, they’re just old people.

2027
02:06:48,240 –> 02:06:51,960
They don’t get it, they don’t get it anymore. They don’t view us as people

2028
02:06:51,960 –> 02:06:55,520
who hold wisdom anymore. Right. Which, so

2029
02:06:55,520 –> 02:06:59,320
again, I, I, this starts, all of this starts at home because I had

2030
02:06:59,320 –> 02:07:03,120
the opportunity last weekend to spend a little bit of time with somebody who’s

2031
02:07:03,120 –> 02:07:05,520
a little bit older than me. Not by a lot. Not by a lot, but

2032
02:07:05,520 –> 02:07:08,970
he’s a little bit older than me. And I, I view as a

2033
02:07:08,970 –> 02:07:12,690
trusted advisor in our community and it’s, this

2034
02:07:12,690 –> 02:07:16,530
was a cultural, cultural person. The first thing my daughter

2035
02:07:16,530 –> 02:07:19,210
said was, can I go? You’re going to go talk to that person. Can I

2036
02:07:19,210 –> 02:07:23,050
go? I want to listen. Came and she’s 23 by

2037
02:07:23,050 –> 02:07:26,730
the way. She came and she listened to our conversation and

2038
02:07:26,730 –> 02:07:30,170
the only time she ever said anything is when one of us asked her something

2039
02:07:30,170 –> 02:07:33,900
specific. Just sat there and by the way, this was not

2040
02:07:33,900 –> 02:07:37,620
a five minute conversation. We were there, we left the house at 8 in the

2041
02:07:37,620 –> 02:07:41,260
morning, did not get back until 6:30 at night and

2042
02:07:41,260 –> 02:07:44,580
she willingly volunteered to go and just sit and listen

2043
02:07:45,860 –> 02:07:49,540
at 23. There’s

2044
02:07:49,540 –> 02:07:52,340
not a lot of other cultures out there that that would happen.

2045
02:07:53,940 –> 02:07:57,580
And again, because the elder sat there and said, well yeah, because you

2046
02:07:57,580 –> 02:08:01,370
know, you taught your kids, right, you taught them to value the wisdom of the

2047
02:08:01,370 –> 02:08:04,970
elder, not to look at them as somebody that just you can throw away

2048
02:08:04,970 –> 02:08:08,490
because they don’t understand, they don’t care. It’s, it’s

2049
02:08:08,650 –> 02:08:12,250
our, it’s our, it’s our responsibility. It’s our Fault if our 20

2050
02:08:12,250 –> 02:08:15,970
somethings are not reacting the way we want them to. We’re, we wants to raise

2051
02:08:15,970 –> 02:08:18,450
them and we’re the one that we’re the only ones that can help them. Course.

2052
02:08:18,450 –> 02:08:22,210
Correct. Yeah. You see something in your 20 something that you

2053
02:08:22,210 –> 02:08:25,780
don’t like you better. Hey, see something, say something. You know, like

2054
02:08:29,220 –> 02:08:32,820
it works there too. I’m just saying it works there too.

2055
02:08:34,420 –> 02:08:38,060
Well, on that note, I’ve held Tom Libby long enough. We

2056
02:08:38,060 –> 02:08:41,459
have, I think we’ve thoroughly covered Sitting Bull, his life and

2057
02:08:41,459 –> 02:08:44,940
legacy, and talked about the new perspective on an

2058
02:08:44,940 –> 02:08:48,660
iconic legend, this

2059
02:08:48,660 –> 02:08:52,250
touching, poignant oral history put to paper. Yeah, I agree with that.

2060
02:08:52,410 –> 02:08:56,170
I’d recommend going out and getting this book, reading it and absorbing the

2061
02:08:56,170 –> 02:08:59,970
lessons from it as a leader, but also as a

2062
02:08:59,970 –> 02:09:03,450
person with a community, with a family and who is part

2063
02:09:03,930 –> 02:09:07,409
of something bigger than yourself. You’re not just an

2064
02:09:07,409 –> 02:09:11,210
atomized, floating individual with no connections.

2065
02:09:11,690 –> 02:09:14,890
No man or woman, for that matter,

2066
02:09:15,370 –> 02:09:19,220
is an island. Like to thank Tom Libby

2067
02:09:19,220 –> 02:09:21,540
for coming on the podcast today. And with that, well,

2068
02:09:22,980 –> 02:09:23,620
we’re out.