Tender is the Night by F. Scott Fitzgerald (Part One) w/Libby Unger

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Hello. My name is Jesan Sorrells, and this is the

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Leadership Lessons, from the Great Books podcast, episode

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number one forty ain’t in

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chronological.

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So today, we’re gonna be looking at a few things.

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But before we do that, we have to consider some

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facts. Every good story, just like every life, has a beginning, a

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middle, and an end. And the sentimental and romantic parts that

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happen between those bookends are what makes for a life.

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And in areas such as ours, where we are always on, always connected, and always

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judging others and finding them wanting, Collectively, at this

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point in time in the West, we are drifting back from the desire to know

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everything about everyone all the time. As a matter of fact, before I came on

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this podcast today, I just read a whole article from

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someone on Substack, basically announcing their departure from Substack,

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saying that it’s too commercialized and no one goes here anymore.

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What we really want from people is honesty,

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transparency, and above all else, authenticity.

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However, we are still in an era of social media curation

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that’s happening at the exact same time. Too many people, poorly

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inculcated into a deeply visual cultural, still believe that the future is the

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airbrush photo brought to you by artificial intelligence and large language

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models. Except, of course, as in any other era,

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the young, the sentimental, and the romantic are looking to be led out of the

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space of the fake and into the space of the real.

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But what does leading out of the seeming abundance of the fake and into the

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desert of the real actually look like at a practical level for leaders?

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How do they find their way? And what is the vision of the future after

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we have sentimentalized to the past?

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Today, we will be summarizing and analyzing some of the themes for

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leaders embedded in the Roman a Clef,

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Sentimentalizing the Decline and Fall of a Lost Generation.

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Tender is the night. I f Scott, it’s

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Gerald. Leaders, it’s

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not the society that is tragically screwed up. The

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tragically screwed up parts also live in all of us.

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And I kinda called an audible on this intro and kind of rewrote it, which

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was why if you’re watching that video, Libby looks confused. But today, we will be

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joined by Libby Younger back from episode number

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one forty five where we did the geopolitical Victorian

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romp through Ford Maddox Ford’s parades end, what I

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consider to be a bookend book. And later on, we’ll be

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bringing Libby back. We’ll be talking about a farewell to arms this year

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as well. But, welcome back, Libby. How are you

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doing? I’m fantastic. And my little furrow

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brow always gives me away. You’re like,

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what is he talking about? It’s not rid of it, but it doesn’t work.

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Like, that’s not on the script. Easy, and I had caught up. I had caught

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up. But It’s okay. It’s alright. It’s okay. I I called an audible. I

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rewrote it because, well, this is the first episode of

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our new our new format. So if you listened

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to episode number one forty seven, which you should have listened to

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before this, we introed Tender is the Night, and I talked about

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extensively about the literary life of f Scott Fitzgerald

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and some of his challenges with writing, with alcoholism,

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with his wife, Zelda, and her,

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insanity. We even read on that episode, the

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great, not really

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epigraph. It’s not really the term I wanna use, but the great sort of commentary

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that, F. Scott Fitzgerald or not F. Scott show. Sorry. That, Ernest

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Hemingway had on her, in a movable feast, a

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little piece in that book called, called, Hawks

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Do Not Share. Right? Which was the first time that Hemingway

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realized Zelda might not be all at home.

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And that, of course, impacted how Fitzgerald wrote and the kind

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of space that he wrote from. And, Tender is

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the Night was Fitzgerald’s probably least

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selling book, of the ones that he wrote. And

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he actually tried to rewrite it in the thirties, and it didn’t it didn’t land

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in either. Matter of fact, this book sold fewer copies even than The

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Great Gatsby, which is the one, of course, that everyone knows him from,

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which did not sell like hotcakes initially. K?

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This Side of Paradise, Beautiful and the Damned, these books sold a lot better.

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Right? And, of course, Fitzgerald had his short story

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output, which was incredible in the twenties and

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thirties. So we’re gonna open up with Tender is

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the Night. We’re gonna start off in chapter one, and, we’re

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gonna sort of lay the foundation for this,

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as Fitzgerald describes the

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French Riviera scene. And I

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quote, on the pleasant shore of the French Riviera, about

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halfway between Marseille and the Italian border, stands a large, proud, rose colored

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hotel. Deferential palms cool its flushed facade, and before

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it stretches a short dazzling beach. Lately, it has become a summer resort

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of notable and fashionable people. A decade ago, it was almost

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deserted after its English clientele went north in April. Not many bungalows

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cluster near it. But when this story begins, only the couple of a

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dozen old villas rotted like water lilies among the massed

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pines between Gauss’ Hotel des Francaise and Cannes

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Five miles away. The hotel and its bright tan

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prayer rug of a beach were one. In the early morning, the distant

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images of Cannes, the pink and cream of old fortifications, the purple

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outbound at Italy, were cast across the water lake wavering in the ripples and

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rings sent up by the sea plants through the clear shallows.

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Now I’m gonna pause here. There’s something very interesting that Fitzgerald

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does because he comes from a different time. He fully and completely describes

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what you are going to see at Cannes. Right? What you’re going to see when

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you go there. By the way, the Cannes Film Festival just took place, the

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weekend before this recording. And, apparently, Jeff Bezos and,

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Lawrence Sanchez were there with their yacht, which is obnoxious from

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what I understand. One

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more sign, I guess, of a decadent, gilded

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era in which we are living.

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Back to the book. Before eight, a man came down to the beach in

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a blue bathrobe and with much preliminary application to his person of the chilly

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water and much grunting and loud breathing floundered a minute in the sea.

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When he had gone, beach and bay were quiet for an hour. Merchant

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men crawled westward on the horizon. Busboys shouted in the hotel court. The dew dried

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upon the pines. In another hour, the horns and motors began to blow down the

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winding road along the low range of the mares, which separate the littoral

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from true Provencal, France. A

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mile from the sea is where pines gave way to dusty poplars

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as an isolated railroad stop. Whence, one June morning in

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1925, Victoria brought a woman and her daughter down

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to Gauss’ hotel. The mother’s face was of a fading prettiness that would

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soon be padded with broken veins. Her expression was both tranquil and

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aware in a pleasant way. However, once I moved on quickly to

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her daughter who had magic in her pink palms and her cheeks litched to a

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lovely flame like the thrilling flesh of children after their cold baths

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in the evening. Her fine forehead sloped gently up to where her

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hair, bordering it like an armorial shield, burst into love locks and

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waves and curly cues of ash blonde and gold. Her eyes were

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bright, big, clear, wet, and shining. The color of her cheeks was real,

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breaking close to the surface from the strong young pump of her heart. Her

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body hovered delicately on the last edge of childhood. She

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was almost 18, nearly complete, but the

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dew was still on her.

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That’s how we open Tender Into the Night with a description

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of our character that will be moving

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the plot forward and will act as a

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act as a fuel, in what’s about to happen

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between, Nicole and Dick Divers,

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a couple who are American

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escapees, I guess, is maybe not the word. But,

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they are they’ve traveled, right, to to Europe,

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and they are part of the party set in nineteen twenties and

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’19 early nineteen thirties, France.

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And, that is one of the things you note about Tender is the

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Night. Right? It is a

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novel that shows how the other half lives. It is a

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novel that demonstrated, in real ways

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to people reading in America who were right on the cusp of the end of

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the roaring twenties and the beginning of the Great Depression,

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just how much they were missing in life.

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And so I’m gonna open up my questions for Libby,

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with this one. You know, you

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mentioned last time when we were talking about Parade’s End, a little bit off off,

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off mic, how much you really enjoyed this book. What would you say for you

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was the most captivating element, Libby, of Tender is the

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Night? I think just how

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universal, human your

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humanity human humanity is that even as

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we, you know, live in, you know, in the twenty

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twenties, a hundred years later,

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you know, the desire

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yeah. Mental illness is, you know, is

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prevalent, and, you know, they called it

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schizophrenia back in, you know, the nineteen twenties, and now

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a dissociative, you know, identity is

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maybe the more common term now.

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You know, numbing, you know, not wanting

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to live in reality and numbing through alcohol,

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you know, is a constant. Yeah. Yeah,

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backdrop is just what is the only thing

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changing. You know,

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it was it was it was hard it it was hard to read.

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You know, when you look behind, it wasn’t that hard to read. I mean, I

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you know, I as I told you, I really I love reading books from this

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era. And the way that, F. Scott Fitzgerald and

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Hemingway describe, the backdrops

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and the people just are so real to me. I feel like I can just

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plop in, and I, you know, I know the conversations, and I can

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have, you know, you can have them all, and just feel a part

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of it, you know, from the clothing to the smells to the backdrop, but it’s

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also because it’s in, you know, in France. Mhmm. And

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France is pretty timeless, at least, at least from, you know,

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nineteen hundreds to 02/2025.

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Backdrop is similar. The story

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of the haves and the have nots, you know, are constant.

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It it I I I I

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think that the most resonating is how we’d wanna keep

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mental illness to feel like a a secret

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if we get out and how maybe it’s a psychotherapy doesn’t

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work. No one has a

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solution to therapy. I could’ve

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told you that back in ‘2 you know, in February.

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You know? But, you know, it’s kind of a constant that

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we have to live it through life as well as, you know, as

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well as the numbing. And this pursuit

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of more, more, more, doesn’t

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satisfy, you

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know, the desire to feel real and more just

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sitting back and judging and numbing. Mhmm. That’s why

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the feel yeah. The the need to feel

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real. Well, and there’s this there’s this

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and I think about it often when I read, when I read about World

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War one. Right? We’re sort of coming off grades end. Right? And and this is

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all the stuff that happened after World War one. Right? So after World War one,

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people wanted to party, which makes sense. After every war, people wanna have a time

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of a break. They wanna party. They wanna forget the the,

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problems and the challenges that were inherent in in

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sacrifice that was involved in warfare. Right? Whether the sacrifice was large or small,

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doesn’t seem to matter. Even in our

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time. Right? I mean, one of the interesting things with our twenty

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year adventurism in Afghanistan and in Iraq,

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is well, two interesting things. So one, we had to

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party, but it all happened on social media, where everybody

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across the world could see it. But then number two, that’s our new

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communication medium of choice. But then number two,

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you know, George w Bush back at the end of 09/11, you

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know, said possibly the worst possible thing you could possibly say, which was, you know,

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don’t worry about it. The economy is gonna be fine. Everybody go shopping. Like, that’s

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not that’s not what you say. Right?

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Which shows a failure of political leadership in our

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time. Also, it sort of set the tone for the unseriousness

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that we’ve had during the last twenty years of what are quite what’s quite frankly

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chaos chaos in my opinion, and we’ve talked about that on this podcast before.

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A hundred years ago, however, and this is the thing that I always have to

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think of, I have to kind of sort contextualize it. You talk about universality, and

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I agree with you. However, a hundred years ago, there were some things

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that were genuinely new on the horizon.

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And we can speak about it a hundred years later because we’re cynical, and we’ve

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seen the backwash of it. But consumerism

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was genuinely new then.

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Consumerism at a capitalistic consumerism driven by

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capitalism at an industrial scale was new.

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You had people who were actually beginning to

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live the kind of lives that later on at the end of

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World War two and going into the nineteen seventies would just

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become things that they expected. Right? But they were beginning to have that taste,

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right, of quote, unquote the good life. And it was sort of starting to filter

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down into the middle class. Then you also had celebrity,

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you know, the beginning of the celebrity culture, which Tender is the Night kind of

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personalizes that. And one of the things that really jumps out to me about

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this book is,

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Rosemary is a Hollywood Star, daddy’s little girl. Right?

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Which the way Fitzgerald writes about

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Hollywood and then, of course, later on the struggles he had writing in

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Hollywood are the exact same struggles. It’s the exact same

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parallel and the exact same way that people think about YouTube stars

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now. The way we think about

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YouTube now, if we’re a Hollywood Star, is the way that Hollywood people

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were thought of by people who believed that theater was the big art

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form. And if you weren’t in theater, you were nobody. What is this Hollywood

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trash? What is this? Like, you just stand around and, like, the

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camera it’s it’s garbage. The same thing that, like, the Hollywood people say about

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YouTube now. Like, it’s amazing to me. Like, Hollywood Writers will not

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work in YouTube. They just won’t do it. They refuse.

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And and they struggle with the fact that YouTube is eating

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their edges just and and actually eating the whole industry

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the same way that theater people struggled

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with movies eating their edges. Right? And later on, movie people would

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struggle with TV in the fifties, right, at a much smaller scale. But movie people

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kinda saw it coming and sort of able to integrate into that. So

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that sort of struck me. So celebrity culture was

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beginning. Consumerism was beginning. And

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then you talk about therapy. We can only

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I mean, that’s that’s that’s the kind of statement we can make a hundred years

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after because Freud was new. Like, Freud’s, like,

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Victorian and and Young was running around. These were

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new I mean, Dick Divers is a psychiatrist. You know, all these things were

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new, at the time, new ways of dealing with folks. Even

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00:16:46.395 –> 00:16:50.235
his interactions with his his rich psychiatry patients. There’s one

264
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that’s in, early in book three when

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when, his partner, begins to believe that Dick’s not

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serious after he comes off of the the fist fight with with the

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Italian with the Italian cops, which is probably not wise.

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But, probably not wisdom there, Dick.

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But he comes off of that. He goes back to Switzerland, and then he, like,

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starts his long slow, you know, decline into

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ignominy. And, and it’s

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at that point that you begin to see how his

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clients engage with him around psychiatry.

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And Fitzgerald sort of shadows this early in the book or throughout the

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book where he can’t Dick can’t even write a second volume

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of his, like, medical book that was gonna make him famous. He can’t get it

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up off the deck. And, partially, that’s the challenge of a writer’s struggle,

278
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which is Fitzgerald which which, shadows

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Fitzgerald’s challenges in real life with the partying and the drinking

280
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and Zelda and everything else. But it also,

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I think and maybe Fitzgerald wasn’t intentional about this, but it’s his

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critique of psychiatry. Like, it’s not there’s something

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that’s not there, but it’s too new for us to figure out what the something

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is that’s missing. And so you see all these things that are new. And so

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I have to look back on this book when I was reading it. I say

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all that to say this. When I was reading this book, I had to give

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people forgiveness and grace rather than judge

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them through a twenty twenty five lens. Because if I judge

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them through a twenty twenty five lens, I will judge them harshly, and I will

290
00:18:24.200 –> 00:18:27.799
find them wanting. Interesting. Yeah. I

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didn’t I didn’t have that challenge. Yeah. And one of the things

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that I’m thinking about is I’ll probably

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gonna double down on, individuals’

294
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responses are universal. Yeah.

295
00:18:42.850 –> 00:18:46.370
Okay. You know? So, right now, you

296
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know, commercial consumerism enabled

297
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by financial engineering and, you know, and all those

298
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things has probably penetrated a little deeper

299
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into, society.

300
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But, and, you know, the

301
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the narcissism associated with me me me,

302
00:19:12.560 –> 00:19:16.100
you because there’s a bit more wealth and decadence.

303
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People are looking for ways to feel

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valued and validated externally.

305
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But I think those are all

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regardless of what the trigger is.

307
00:19:34.660 –> 00:19:38.500
Hate that word. I know. I know. But but it’s the right it’s the

308
00:19:38.500 –> 00:19:42.020
right word. It’s the right word. The right word for that context. Is Right.

309
00:19:42.020 –> 00:19:45.540
Yep. Regardless of what the trigger is, the

310
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struggle remains the same, which

311
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is how to go how to

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00:19:54.535 –> 00:19:57.515
find yeah. How to survive in the world.

313
00:19:58.455 –> 00:20:01.950
Mhmm. If you, you know, the base you know, getting past your base needs

314
00:20:02.110 –> 00:20:05.950
from a Maslow peer inimative needs. Once those base needs

315
00:20:05.950 –> 00:20:09.490
are met, we start to get into more decadent,

316
00:20:11.950 –> 00:20:15.649
psychological responses to what’s happening in the world.

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And, you know, that’s where,

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00:20:20.855 –> 00:20:24.615
you know, when people, you know, start getting what they’re told is

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supposed to make them feel whole, like, more

320
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more wealth, relationships,

321
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education. There are they continue to look

322
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externally for answers to feel whole

323
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that only internal, work

324
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can solve for. So,

325
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well, commercialization is real consumerism is really high right

326
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now. We have the ability to be even more narcissistic,

327
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you know, at scale than before.

328
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You know, we have lots of people who have shifted from alcohol to marijuana

329
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and all different types of drugs, but they’re still numbing because

330
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they can’t fill the hole within within them.

331
00:21:10.020 –> 00:21:13.755
Mhmm. You know, today, I don’t know what the you know, we

332
00:21:13.755 –> 00:21:17.275
have to move to microaggressions in order to

333
00:21:17.275 –> 00:21:21.035
find, you know, a a PTSD that we need to hide

334
00:21:21.035 –> 00:21:24.794
from, you know, versus back in

335
00:21:24.794 –> 00:21:28.580
1920, it was legitimately World War one or,

336
00:21:28.580 –> 00:21:32.280
yeah, World War one and new entrenched warfare. Mhmm.

337
00:21:32.900 –> 00:21:36.340
But if you see the common thread is, I was

338
00:21:36.340 –> 00:21:40.180
wounded. I’m a victim. Life isn’t as I expected it to

339
00:21:40.180 –> 00:21:43.975
be. And we’ll look,

340
00:21:44.275 –> 00:21:47.875
you know, externally for, you

341
00:21:47.875 –> 00:21:51.015
know, validation, and or numbing,

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00:21:52.355 –> 00:21:56.195
in order to reconcile what I expected life to be with what

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00:21:56.195 –> 00:21:59.870
it is. And we will get yeah.

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The common theme that I’ve been talking about since my

345
00:22:03.790 –> 00:22:07.490
maybe, like, eighteen to twenty four months ago is where

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right now with such a secular society, the set and the seven

347
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deadly sins are everything that’s

348
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being promoted, at at

349
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mass, and that’s the downfall of a civilization.

350
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You know, when you have a, a more god

351
00:22:27.820 –> 00:22:31.580
fearing or religious society where

352
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you have faith in something greater than yourself,

353
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you’re kind of released, from

354
00:22:40.235 –> 00:22:43.995
needing to, you know, to, you know,

355
00:22:43.995 –> 00:22:47.755
you’re released from those other, you

356
00:22:47.755 –> 00:22:51.200
know, from the the the self destructive sins, Greed, you know,

357
00:22:51.980 –> 00:22:54.640
greed, pride,

358
00:22:56.059 –> 00:22:59.760
wrath, gluttony, you know,

359
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face in something greater than yourself is what

360
00:23:04.220 –> 00:23:07.304
will put you into a place of being,

361
00:23:08.885 –> 00:23:12.725
satisfied with satisfied with life or not demanding more from it than it

362
00:23:12.725 –> 00:23:16.105
is, accepting life as it is. You do mention

363
00:23:16.325 –> 00:23:19.920
the shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three, yeah, in three generations. I’ve

364
00:23:19.920 –> 00:23:23.380
mentioned that several times. Yeah. It’s because,

365
00:23:23.840 –> 00:23:27.280
you know, that first generation is just trying to get out of the base

366
00:23:27.280 –> 00:23:31.040
Maslow’s pyramid of needs, and they’re, yeah, and they’re willing

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00:23:31.040 –> 00:23:34.625
to work hard to make sure that they have food and a structure over their

368
00:23:34.625 –> 00:23:38.145
heads. Everything else after that, you know, they’re told is gonna

369
00:23:38.145 –> 00:23:41.505
fulfill them, and they’re still left empty. Their

370
00:23:41.505 –> 00:23:45.105
children still probably feel a little hungry, and they’re

371
00:23:45.105 –> 00:23:48.550
trying to find meaning in life, through more wealth

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00:23:48.690 –> 00:23:52.530
and education and, you know, etcetera. Mhmm. They find

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00:23:52.530 –> 00:23:55.570
that it doesn’t fill them. And the third generation is like, we know that money

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00:23:55.570 –> 00:23:59.250
and all these other things you’re telling us doesn’t fulfill us, and they,

375
00:23:59.250 –> 00:24:01.270
like, slide back down into poverty.

376
00:24:03.485 –> 00:24:07.164
So these are yeah. It’s all to say that the

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00:24:07.164 –> 00:24:10.524
universal human experience is the

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00:24:10.524 –> 00:24:13.345
universal human experience regardless of the trigger.

379
00:24:14.284 –> 00:24:17.250
I I you know what? And you know what? When you frame it that way,

380
00:24:17.250 –> 00:24:20.850
I don’t I don’t disagree. You know, one

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00:24:20.850 –> 00:24:24.450
of the brutal

382
00:24:24.450 –> 00:24:28.050
truths that the West was able to integrate versus the

383
00:24:28.050 –> 00:24:31.485
East, but but able to integrate from an eastern religion.

384
00:24:31.945 –> 00:24:35.305
Mhmm. And people forget this. Christianity is fundamentally an eastern

385
00:24:35.305 –> 00:24:39.065
religion, at its root. Right? But the the

386
00:24:39.065 –> 00:24:42.765
truth that it was able to integrate into the West was,

387
00:24:43.340 –> 00:24:46.460
to your point about, for lack of a better term, sin

388
00:24:46.940 –> 00:24:49.680
Mhmm. The

389
00:24:50.460 –> 00:24:53.920
material world is never going to fulfill

390
00:24:53.980 –> 00:24:57.740
you, and to look for that fulfillment in the material world is

391
00:24:57.740 –> 00:25:01.525
sinful in and of itself. And, you know, Buddhism kinda

392
00:25:01.525 –> 00:25:05.125
goes halfway with this with all life is suffering. But then then

393
00:25:05.125 –> 00:25:08.825
what would you do after that? And, and Islam

394
00:25:10.005 –> 00:25:13.610
goes in the other direction to get another Eastern religion and says,

395
00:25:14.310 –> 00:25:17.910
well, yeah, life is suffering. Let’s just crush everything. And I know I know I

396
00:25:17.910 –> 00:25:21.670
know that my my Islamic listeners are going to going to gonna get out of

397
00:25:21.670 –> 00:25:25.365
me from being reductive. But I gotta be reductive for this point.

398
00:25:25.525 –> 00:25:29.365
So let’s crush everything and let’s move on. Right? Let’s conquer it

399
00:25:29.365 –> 00:25:32.885
all for Allah. Judaism kinda gets

400
00:25:32.885 –> 00:25:36.405
halfway there, but then locates everything in a temple, in a physical a

401
00:25:36.405 –> 00:25:40.200
physical manifestation of god on the earth. And this is why

402
00:25:40.200 –> 00:25:43.520
when Jesus shows up and says, I am the temple, and I’ll, you know, tear

403
00:25:43.520 –> 00:25:46.280
it down in three days and restore it, they all lose their minds in the

404
00:25:46.280 –> 00:25:49.960
New Testament. Right? And I’m not talking about the average the average, you

405
00:25:49.960 –> 00:25:53.080
know, on the ground Jewish person. That’s not who I’m talking about. I’m talking about

406
00:25:53.080 –> 00:25:56.805
the Sadducees, the Pharisees, the people who were in charge, and the temple really

407
00:25:56.805 –> 00:26:00.565
worked for them. Right? Jesus gets to a core

408
00:26:00.565 –> 00:26:03.945
truth, which the core truth isn’t buried in Christianity, which is that

409
00:26:04.245 –> 00:26:08.090
the material world will not satisfy you. Looking for that satisfaction

410
00:26:08.090 –> 00:26:11.370
is sinful in and of itself in the material world. And the only thing that

411
00:26:11.370 –> 00:26:15.210
will satisfy you is the grace and the

412
00:26:15.210 –> 00:26:17.950
and the blood and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Okay.

413
00:26:19.370 –> 00:26:23.135
And fast forward February, and I I

414
00:26:23.135 –> 00:26:26.655
like your point here. I’m gonna restate it a different kind of way. We just

415
00:26:26.655 –> 00:26:28.355
find new tools to send with.

416
00:26:30.655 –> 00:26:34.335
And so, you know, twenty years from now, we’ll be doing the same things

417
00:26:34.335 –> 00:26:38.070
with AI. Right? We’ll be doing we’ll we’ll

418
00:26:38.070 –> 00:26:41.750
have come up with I mean, we’re already down the road. We’re already on the

419
00:26:41.750 –> 00:26:45.350
road to AI pornography. We’re already down the road to that. We’re

420
00:26:45.350 –> 00:26:48.730
already down the road to virtual reality, you know,

421
00:26:48.950 –> 00:26:52.145
sexual pleasure, which is, of course, tied into dopamine

422
00:26:52.305 –> 00:26:56.145
dopaminergic reaction. We’re already down the road on that. And who

423
00:26:56.145 –> 00:26:58.485
knows what sort of deviance

424
00:26:59.905 –> 00:27:03.659
will will develop out of that. But it will develop because all

425
00:27:03.659 –> 00:27:07.500
the technology does is give us new ways to to to to

426
00:27:07.500 –> 00:27:11.100
to sort of try to to try to fill, to your point,

427
00:27:11.100 –> 00:27:14.940
our base the the yawning appetites that are that lie at the base of

428
00:27:14.940 –> 00:27:18.480
who we are. And going past that does require

429
00:27:19.155 –> 00:27:22.855
something that is a a belief system that is existential

430
00:27:23.235 –> 00:27:26.935
and exists beyond merely all of that. Right?

431
00:27:27.715 –> 00:27:31.015
So I don’t disagree with any of that. I was merely saying,

432
00:27:35.140 –> 00:27:36.760
I gave them grace because

433
00:27:39.060 –> 00:27:42.840
they the culture

434
00:27:43.060 –> 00:27:46.555
that Fitzgerald came in, the cultural

435
00:27:46.935 –> 00:27:50.535
context he came in, the bucket, right, was a

436
00:27:50.535 –> 00:27:51.515
bucket of

437
00:27:54.375 –> 00:27:57.655
coming out of the death of the Victorian era. Like, the Victorian era died in

438
00:27:57.655 –> 00:28:01.250
World War one. So just like in our era

439
00:28:01.789 –> 00:28:05.570
where the sixties is dying has been dying for the last twenty years.

440
00:28:06.190 –> 00:28:09.549
Not fast enough. I know. I know. I know. I know. Every every Gen Xer

441
00:28:09.549 –> 00:28:13.390
believes that. It’s fine. I understand. The millennials will finally kill it.

442
00:28:13.390 –> 00:28:15.845
They will. They were they are finally going to put it in its grave. It’s

443
00:28:15.845 –> 00:28:19.465
gonna be done. I’m already watching it happen, in real time.

444
00:28:19.605 –> 00:28:23.365
But, the problem here is just like when we read books

445
00:28:23.365 –> 00:28:26.825
on this podcast about revolution, what do you replace

446
00:28:27.445 –> 00:28:31.190
that thing with? Right? And Fitzgerald didn’t have an

447
00:28:31.190 –> 00:28:34.390
answer for this. He just saw he was just a re he was just doing

448
00:28:34.390 –> 00:28:37.910
cultural reportage, kinda like Joan Didion would do much later

449
00:28:37.910 –> 00:28:41.695
on or, James Baldwin in a different context. He was

450
00:28:41.695 –> 00:28:45.375
literally just writing what he was seeing. He was seeing that this

451
00:28:45.375 –> 00:28:48.735
person was trying to fill it with alcohol to your point. This person was trying

452
00:28:48.735 –> 00:28:51.375
to fill it with sex. By the way, there is a lot of sex in

453
00:28:51.375 –> 00:28:55.155
Tender is the Night. A shocking amount. I was very surprised.

454
00:28:56.510 –> 00:29:00.270
And it’s not explicit. I will say that. It is not explicit. And if

455
00:29:00.270 –> 00:29:04.030
you’re a mature individual who kinda knows how things work, you

456
00:29:04.030 –> 00:29:07.789
will see it everywhere. However, a high school student can read this book,

457
00:29:07.789 –> 00:29:11.575
and it’s not there’s no there’s no naked expose of this. Right? It’s

458
00:29:11.575 –> 00:29:15.034
just, like, the first time that Rosemary and Dick finally,

459
00:29:15.495 –> 00:29:19.335
you know, do the thing. It’s, it’s one

460
00:29:19.335 –> 00:29:22.934
sentence, and it’s not even a descriptive sentence. It’s just it’s a

461
00:29:22.934 –> 00:29:26.260
contextual sentence. And, again, if you know how things work between men and women, if

462
00:29:26.260 –> 00:29:29.940
you’ve had any life on you whatsoever, you’ll read that entire paragraph and you’ll

463
00:29:29.940 –> 00:29:33.460
go. And I did. I paused because, again, I come from a more explicit

464
00:29:33.460 –> 00:29:37.160
time. I read that paragraph and I paused and I went, oh.

465
00:29:38.260 –> 00:29:41.345
Oh, okay. That’s what happened there.

466
00:29:41.965 –> 00:29:45.485
Right. Yeah. It was it wasn’t prurient. It wasn’t

467
00:29:45.485 –> 00:29:49.245
prurient. That’s what it was. It was it’s not prurient. That’s

468
00:29:49.325 –> 00:29:52.125
I can appreciate Fitzgerald for that. But when he was doing this, he was looking

469
00:29:52.125 –> 00:29:55.540
at what people were filling that bucket with because they had no good ideas. They

470
00:29:55.540 –> 00:29:58.900
didn’t know what to do after World War one. Yeah. You know?

471
00:29:59.460 –> 00:30:02.600
The other thing that’s kinda touched on in this book, and then we’ll move on,

472
00:30:02.740 –> 00:30:05.540
I wanted to see if you caught this. But the other theme that was kinda

473
00:30:05.540 –> 00:30:09.220
touched on, particularly with the rich folks, is a theme that I see

474
00:30:09.220 –> 00:30:12.865
reflected in our own time, which was that sense of

475
00:30:14.125 –> 00:30:17.265
self hatred, I guess, about their own wealth.

476
00:30:19.485 –> 00:30:23.325
Because your point about shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves, all of the second

477
00:30:23.325 –> 00:30:26.580
generation wealthy folks that were coming to Dick

478
00:30:27.059 –> 00:30:30.740
for psychiatric help either with their child

479
00:30:30.740 –> 00:30:34.419
being a homosexual, the results of incest or

480
00:30:34.419 –> 00:30:37.779
child abuse, using too much

481
00:30:37.779 –> 00:30:41.335
alcohol, alcoholism, whatever the presenting

482
00:30:41.395 –> 00:30:44.375
thing was. And we’ll talk about Nicole Warren here in a minute.

483
00:30:46.115 –> 00:30:49.794
She was fascinating. Regardless of the

484
00:30:49.794 –> 00:30:52.530
presenting thing, these wealthy individuals who made money

485
00:30:53.730 –> 00:30:57.570
all invariably had children. At least one of them, baby Warren, is is a

486
00:30:57.570 –> 00:31:00.630
notorious character here, who either behaved badly

487
00:31:01.250 –> 00:31:04.630
or or or were were wandering towards being socialist

488
00:31:04.690 –> 00:31:08.445
revolutionaries. And that was another thing that was new in the twenties and thirties.

489
00:31:08.445 –> 00:31:11.825
Like, everybody thought and I have to remind myself of this. It’s really hard.

490
00:31:12.365 –> 00:31:15.904
Everybody thought communism was the way to go.

491
00:31:17.164 –> 00:31:20.465
Everybody thought that. They really did

492
00:31:20.684 –> 00:31:24.360
because because Durant Walter Duranty went to Soviet

493
00:31:24.440 –> 00:31:28.040
went to the Soviet Union and lied, and nobody had a way of

494
00:31:28.040 –> 00:31:31.720
proving that he was a liar, not at the not the mass

495
00:31:31.720 –> 00:31:35.480
public level. And so they just bought it. They just bought it hook,

496
00:31:35.480 –> 00:31:39.205
line, and sinker. They bought the whole thing. I mean, again,

497
00:31:39.205 –> 00:31:42.885
about, like, the left and the progressives who believed in it. They’re no

498
00:31:42.885 –> 00:31:46.405
different than today. This is what I’m saying. Like, this is the parallel I’m drawing.

499
00:31:46.405 –> 00:31:49.385
Yes. This is the creative class,

500
00:31:50.030 –> 00:31:53.650
and or the Uber elite that we’re talking about with the

501
00:31:53.789 –> 00:31:57.549
self hatred and the, you know, communism. And, you know, Marx was, you

502
00:31:57.549 –> 00:32:01.390
know, a child of, you know, of wealth. You know? He

503
00:32:01.390 –> 00:32:05.195
had a trust fund. You know? You know,

504
00:32:05.195 –> 00:32:08.895
so I unfortunately, I think I under

505
00:32:09.195 –> 00:32:12.715
like, I probably understand these people far too

506
00:32:12.715 –> 00:32:16.290
well because I’ve walked with these people, and they’re

507
00:32:16.290 –> 00:32:19.910
miserable. So, like, to me, it wasn’t

508
00:32:20.050 –> 00:32:21.990
surprising. You know? Like,

509
00:32:23.890 –> 00:32:26.930
Oh, no. It wasn’t surprising to me either. It was just it was I found

510
00:32:26.930 –> 00:32:30.395
it to be The self loathing is really

511
00:32:30.395 –> 00:32:34.235
prominent. Like Yeah. Yeah. Self loathing is really prominent.

512
00:32:34.235 –> 00:32:37.435
And that’s, again, why you get to the shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves is they

513
00:32:37.435 –> 00:32:41.035
feel they feel guilty like,

514
00:32:41.035 –> 00:32:44.570
guilty, but they’re not producing. They’re not

515
00:32:44.570 –> 00:32:48.169
creating. They’re living a life of luxury. They’re telling others how to

516
00:32:48.169 –> 00:32:51.850
live, yada yada yada. I think of King Charles, like,

517
00:32:51.850 –> 00:32:55.309
right off the bat. Right? Like, you know, he’s

518
00:32:55.370 –> 00:32:58.915
clearly a miserable man who hates

519
00:32:58.915 –> 00:33:02.515
humanity, and everything’s been given to him on a silver

520
00:33:02.515 –> 00:33:05.735
platter literally. And, you know,

521
00:33:07.315 –> 00:33:11.075
I went to a a private high school the last two years of,

522
00:33:11.475 –> 00:33:14.840
of high school after having been in public school through tenth

523
00:33:14.840 –> 00:33:18.679
grade. And, like, these kids, they came

524
00:33:18.679 –> 00:33:22.520
from immense wealth and had everything handed to them, and

525
00:33:22.520 –> 00:33:26.280
they were miserable. Like, they were super smart. Like,

526
00:33:26.280 –> 00:33:29.655
they could, you know, SATs, perfect

527
00:33:29.655 –> 00:33:33.495
scores, everything, you know, came really easy to them, but they had a

528
00:33:33.495 –> 00:33:37.095
gray cloud around them all the like,

529
00:33:37.095 –> 00:33:40.860
literally a gray cloud around them, like, all the time. And I saw it

530
00:33:40.860 –> 00:33:43.440
same at at, you know, at Elite College.

531
00:33:44.940 –> 00:33:48.640
You know, those of us who tend to be a little more optimistic,

532
00:33:48.940 –> 00:33:52.780
I I refer to myself as a pragmatic optimist. I find great

533
00:33:53.020 –> 00:33:56.785
I’m not, like, the smartest tool in the shed. The thing that differentiates

534
00:33:56.924 –> 00:34:00.545
me is I’m willing to work my ass off, and I love to learn,

535
00:34:00.924 –> 00:34:04.684
and I’m not satisfied with not understanding something. You

536
00:34:04.684 –> 00:34:08.445
know? Yeah. You know? And there comes a

537
00:34:08.685 –> 00:34:12.310
there’s a a lot that comes from overcoming

538
00:34:12.850 –> 00:34:16.530
challenges and doing it on a regular basis. Like, you feel you

539
00:34:16.530 –> 00:34:20.050
feel good and grateful for what you’ve got because it

540
00:34:20.210 –> 00:34:24.045
it’s really hard to get. Well, I will

541
00:34:24.045 –> 00:34:27.804
say this. Maybe maybe I’m in the first generation to

542
00:34:27.804 –> 00:34:31.264
get some in my family because I don’t feel a modicum of guilt.

543
00:34:31.804 –> 00:34:35.484
Not one of modicum of guilt or self

544
00:34:35.484 –> 00:34:39.150
loathing at all. No. It doesn’t happen in that first class

545
00:34:39.150 –> 00:34:42.909
because in the first generation because you know how hard you

546
00:34:42.909 –> 00:34:46.530
are. Like, no one like, yeah. When when Obama

547
00:34:46.590 –> 00:34:49.665
said you didn’t do this on your own, it’s like, yeah. The fuck I did.

548
00:34:49.745 –> 00:34:53.445
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That’s right.

549
00:34:53.505 –> 00:34:56.945
No one else was getting up at 5AM and staying up until

550
00:34:56.945 –> 00:35:00.625
12AM. And, sure, you know, one of my favorite

551
00:35:00.625 –> 00:35:03.180
sayings is opportunity favors the prepared mind.

552
00:35:04.380 –> 00:35:08.079
So people create, you know, conditions within

553
00:35:08.220 –> 00:35:12.059
within which you can thrive, but I’m sorry. I

554
00:35:12.140 –> 00:35:15.819
there like, if the if there’s a wall, I’m gonna find a way

555
00:35:15.819 –> 00:35:19.494
under it, over it, open a door. Like, you know, like

556
00:35:19.575 –> 00:35:23.175
so, yes, the conditions need to be there. I’m not in a prison, so

557
00:35:23.175 –> 00:35:27.015
you don’t be in a prison, but I don’t know. Like, yeah, you did it

558
00:35:27.015 –> 00:35:30.795
on your own. Well, it’s it’s I think of Snoop Dogg’s,

559
00:35:31.415 –> 00:35:35.130
Hollywood walk of fame speech where, like, I I wanna thank me. I

560
00:35:35.130 –> 00:35:38.650
always tell my wife, like, if anybody ever gives me an award, like, a

561
00:35:38.650 –> 00:35:42.250
famous award, like, something that’s really high profile, I am I’m gonna just basically steal

562
00:35:42.250 –> 00:35:45.849
his entire I wanna thank me speech, and I’m just gonna do that. My wife’s

563
00:35:45.849 –> 00:35:48.830
like, you gotta stop. Like, you have to you can’t do that. That’s ridiculous.

564
00:35:49.365 –> 00:35:52.725
But it is true. Like, I wanna thank me for getting up at

565
00:35:52.725 –> 00:35:56.325
05:00 in the morning. I wanna thank me for not quitting. I wanna

566
00:35:56.325 –> 00:35:59.845
thank me for, like, doing all the things and going the extra mile when other

567
00:35:59.845 –> 00:36:03.390
people quit and weren’t willing to do that thing. We’re willing to take some risks

568
00:36:03.390 –> 00:36:06.750
that others weren’t willing to do while people are on the sidelines tell you in

569
00:36:06.750 –> 00:36:10.430
the like, you’re in the arena while on the sidelines telling you you can’t

570
00:36:10.430 –> 00:36:14.190
do it. Exactly. And make some decisions that, were

571
00:36:14.190 –> 00:36:18.015
not that great, but did I learn from them? Yeah. Well well

572
00:36:18.255 –> 00:36:21.855
and and well, it all and, fundamentally, I’d like to thank God for putting me

573
00:36:21.855 –> 00:36:24.575
in the position where he did because you know what? I could have been born

574
00:36:24.575 –> 00:36:27.775
in Russia or I could have been born in South Africa or I could have

575
00:36:27.775 –> 00:36:30.494
been born in Brazil or I could have been born in Canada. I wasn’t. I

576
00:36:30.494 –> 00:36:34.090
was born here. And you know what? I didn’t I didn’t I would that wasn’t

577
00:36:34.090 –> 00:36:37.610
that wasn’t the thing I picked. I was put here, and I took advantage of

578
00:36:37.610 –> 00:36:41.290
what was given to me and the wealth that was given to me in

579
00:36:41.290 –> 00:36:45.065
being put here. That’s what I did. Right? That’s the

580
00:36:45.065 –> 00:36:48.585
free will part of the equation that, again, comes out

581
00:36:48.585 –> 00:36:52.265
of comes out of a Christian understanding of sort of how the

582
00:36:52.265 –> 00:36:55.785
worth is structured, and how reality itself is

583
00:36:55.785 –> 00:36:58.765
structured. We do have free will. We do have the ability to choose.

584
00:37:00.010 –> 00:37:03.769
And so we shouldn’t have self loathing. Like, we shouldn’t have that. We shouldn’t have

585
00:37:03.769 –> 00:37:06.910
that guilt. Now we should have guilt, I would assert,

586
00:37:07.450 –> 00:37:10.349
if how we got our money was

587
00:37:11.130 –> 00:37:14.885
illegal, immoral, or fattening, then

588
00:37:14.885 –> 00:37:18.005
we should have guilt. Yeah.

589
00:37:18.645 –> 00:37:22.005
Yeah. Like, for me, yes.

590
00:37:22.005 –> 00:37:25.705
I, I agree. It’s like, I’d, like,

591
00:37:26.405 –> 00:37:30.230
exploiting others, using others. Yeah. No guilt about you

592
00:37:30.230 –> 00:37:33.990
know, have guilt for that. For me, you know, part of what I wanted

593
00:37:33.990 –> 00:37:37.510
to elaborate on the sense of faith is about also having a self

594
00:37:37.670 –> 00:37:41.510
sense of service to others, wanting to help others thrive. Like, I honestly

595
00:37:41.510 –> 00:37:45.265
believe other people’s success is, like, is my, yeah,

596
00:37:45.265 –> 00:37:49.105
is my success because I want them to be successful. Like, I help

597
00:37:49.105 –> 00:37:52.785
those who are willing to help themselves. Right? That is yeah. And

598
00:37:52.785 –> 00:37:56.465
that gives me great satisfaction to see others thrive,

599
00:37:56.465 –> 00:37:59.910
but they have to do the work. Right. Right. Right.

600
00:38:00.110 –> 00:38:03.870
Getting the material benefits from that. Great. I’m not gonna shake off of

601
00:38:03.870 –> 00:38:07.570
material benefits, but I’m not gonna define myself by material

602
00:38:07.630 –> 00:38:11.010
benefits. I’m not that isn’t my slow pursuit. It’s a nice outcome

603
00:38:12.144 –> 00:38:15.365
of being a greater service to others beyond myself.

604
00:38:16.065 –> 00:38:19.585
Well, there’s a there’s an interesting philosophical idea, which if you

605
00:38:19.585 –> 00:38:22.885
don’t buy into Christianity, that’s fine. It’s still a,

606
00:38:23.265 –> 00:38:27.020
an idea that is about the cornerstone of reality, so you better buy

607
00:38:27.020 –> 00:38:30.700
into that, which is, you know, the Lord gives you the

608
00:38:30.700 –> 00:38:34.460
ability to to gain wealth. Now because of the pushback

609
00:38:34.460 –> 00:38:38.260
I always hear from people who are

610
00:38:38.260 –> 00:38:42.035
a little more, shall we say, progressive than myself, The thing they will always say

611
00:38:42.035 –> 00:38:44.595
is, well, there’s always poor people who are working their butts off and they’re not

612
00:38:44.595 –> 00:38:48.194
getting anywhere. To wit to wit, I point

613
00:38:48.194 –> 00:38:51.954
out, yes. And are they

614
00:38:51.954 –> 00:38:55.120
working their butts off at the right thing? Because if they’re working their butts off

615
00:38:55.120 –> 00:38:58.720
at the right thing and they’re appropriately aligned, they will get

616
00:38:58.720 –> 00:39:02.320
somewhere. Will they get as far as Dick Divers in Tender is the

617
00:39:02.320 –> 00:39:05.700
Night? Will they get as far as Nicole Warren?

618
00:39:06.965 –> 00:39:10.085
No. They may not get there. Will they get as far as Jeff Bezos and

619
00:39:10.085 –> 00:39:13.765
his obnoxious yacht with his teak that he probably sourced from some,

620
00:39:13.765 –> 00:39:17.445
like, woods somewhere in, like, Thailand that’s illegal? No.

621
00:39:17.445 –> 00:39:21.010
They probably won’t. And and

622
00:39:21.550 –> 00:39:25.150
because two things can be true at once, that’s okay. If

623
00:39:25.150 –> 00:39:28.690
you’re an inch ahead of where you started

624
00:39:29.310 –> 00:39:31.869
Like And we used right. And we used to sort of have this concept in

625
00:39:31.869 –> 00:39:35.295
our in our country. If you’re an inch ahead of where you started,

626
00:39:36.395 –> 00:39:40.175
say thank you and be on your way. And that sense of

627
00:39:40.875 –> 00:39:43.995
and this is the flip side of the self loathing if you’re wealthy. The flip

628
00:39:43.995 –> 00:39:47.530
side of that is the hatred of the wealthy. The

629
00:39:47.530 –> 00:39:51.369
envy, which is the particular sin of the poor is, or those who don’t

630
00:39:51.369 –> 00:39:54.910
have as much, which if you’re have a dollar less than somebody else, you’re poor.

631
00:39:55.130 –> 00:39:58.589
Okay. The envy and envy is about objects.

632
00:39:59.609 –> 00:40:03.375
Jealousy is about people and relationships. Envy is about objects and

633
00:40:03.375 –> 00:40:06.995
stuff. That’s why we have to separate those two. But you will be envious

634
00:40:07.215 –> 00:40:10.835
of what people have, and you particularly see this in everybody’s

635
00:40:10.895 –> 00:40:14.495
critique of Elon Musk. I mean, oh my gosh. The leftist critiques of

636
00:40:14.495 –> 00:40:18.130
Elon Musk are all based on they’re all based on envy. We we

637
00:40:18.130 –> 00:40:21.970
can better decide what it is he needs to do with

638
00:40:21.970 –> 00:40:25.730
what he’s earned than he can. That’s all envy. That’s all

639
00:40:25.730 –> 00:40:29.490
envy. Yeah. And I yeah. I I wanna go back to

640
00:40:29.490 –> 00:40:33.075
where you started with, like, are you working at the right stuff to,

641
00:40:33.075 –> 00:40:36.435
like, making the right decisions about, like, you know, like, you

642
00:40:36.435 –> 00:40:40.195
know, saving your money, where you spend your money. Mhmm. And you always

643
00:40:40.195 –> 00:40:43.955
hear about, like, the millionaire next door who lives really

644
00:40:43.955 –> 00:40:47.609
modestly. And, you know, they worked really, really hard, and they just

645
00:40:47.609 –> 00:40:51.210
put it in the bank or they invested it. Like, it’s a whole set of

646
00:40:51.210 –> 00:40:54.970
decisions that people are making. It’s not just about how

647
00:40:54.970 –> 00:40:58.650
hard you’re working. Like, I always whenever I

648
00:40:58.650 –> 00:41:02.365
went into a job, I knew what I was contributing, but I

649
00:41:02.365 –> 00:41:05.645
also knew what I was getting out of it and where but the next three

650
00:41:05.645 –> 00:41:08.704
options were that I was pursuing. It wasn’t an in state.

651
00:41:09.405 –> 00:41:12.990
Right? So, like, where am I growing? Where is this taking me?

652
00:41:13.310 –> 00:41:16.670
Mhmm. So I always had to think about it from that perspective, but I also

653
00:41:16.670 –> 00:41:20.430
knew it wouldn’t take me anywhere if I didn’t think about what they needed from

654
00:41:20.430 –> 00:41:24.030
me. Right? Correct. Right. Right. Right. Right. How do you put yourself in

655
00:41:24.750 –> 00:41:28.365
I don’t know. As I’ve

656
00:41:28.365 –> 00:41:31.265
gotten older, one of the things that’s become more

657
00:41:33.485 –> 00:41:37.245
maybe not animating for me. Maybe that’s too hard a word. It doesn’t really animate

658
00:41:37.245 –> 00:41:40.625
me. It’s it’s just one of these intellectual things that I sort of chew over

659
00:41:40.950 –> 00:41:44.710
when I’m, like, outside on my property picking up dog

660
00:41:44.710 –> 00:41:48.470
poop, whatever. Yep. You know? Whatever. What do you what what else are you

661
00:41:48.470 –> 00:41:51.510
gonna think about when you’re doing that? Right? But,

662
00:41:52.150 –> 00:41:55.830
you know, when I’m when I have time to intellectually masticate over this

663
00:41:55.830 –> 00:41:59.585
stuff, one of the things that’s interesting to me is I don’t know, and no

664
00:41:59.585 –> 00:42:03.045
human being does, by the way, how everything

665
00:42:03.265 –> 00:42:07.025
links together to produce an outcome. I have zero idea. So

666
00:42:07.025 –> 00:42:10.630
in working on the right stuff, I get it. If

667
00:42:10.630 –> 00:42:14.390
you’re poor in not understanding the correct questions to ask

668
00:42:14.390 –> 00:42:17.910
because the people who came before you couldn’t even couldn’t even

669
00:42:17.910 –> 00:42:21.750
frame where you should look correctly, yes, you’re gonna

670
00:42:21.750 –> 00:42:24.924
be upside down and it’s and your life’s gonna be hard, and it’s you’re probably

671
00:42:24.924 –> 00:42:28.525
not going to get as far as somebody who framed the

672
00:42:28.525 –> 00:42:32.045
question correctly and framed what the answer

673
00:42:32.045 –> 00:42:35.325
might be correctly for you. Like, this is one of those things I try to

674
00:42:35.325 –> 00:42:37.645
do with my children, and I try to surround myself with people who try to

675
00:42:37.645 –> 00:42:41.470
do this with their kids. So the question is not, you know, for my eight

676
00:42:41.470 –> 00:42:45.230
year old. Like, can you sell eggs on the

677
00:42:45.230 –> 00:42:48.910
street for, like, a dollar or whatever? Right? The

678
00:42:48.910 –> 00:42:52.450
question is, do you have everything aligned correctly

679
00:42:52.750 –> 00:42:56.045
in order to be able to sell eggs for a dollar?

680
00:42:56.744 –> 00:43:00.205
And if you don’t have everything aligned correctly to sell eggs for a dollar,

681
00:43:00.905 –> 00:43:03.625
you can go ahead and slap up something out there, but you’re not gonna be

682
00:43:03.625 –> 00:43:07.080
successful. And so these are the kinds of things that, like like, if that

683
00:43:07.080 –> 00:43:10.840
framing isn’t there for you, I get it. And we live in the

684
00:43:10.840 –> 00:43:14.280
most open, free, and informed culture on the face of the

685
00:43:14.280 –> 00:43:18.120
planet right now, historically speaking. We have the math

686
00:43:18.200 –> 00:43:21.205
the massive sampling tool known as Google, where you can just go ask it a

687
00:43:21.205 –> 00:43:24.805
bunch of questions. You could figure things out. You have zero

688
00:43:24.805 –> 00:43:28.645
excuses. So we’re all out of excuses, kids. We’re all out of

689
00:43:28.645 –> 00:43:32.485
excuses. We’re all out of envy. We’re all out of jealousy. We’re all out of

690
00:43:32.485 –> 00:43:36.200
that. And yet, because our technology allows us

691
00:43:36.200 –> 00:43:39.500
to send more and just in better ways,

692
00:43:40.040 –> 00:43:43.640
we we still continue to pursue this. Right? We still continue to have the

693
00:43:43.640 –> 00:43:46.214
excuses. So, Well, yeah.

694
00:43:47.075 –> 00:43:50.915
People will stop because yeah. Will stop

695
00:43:50.915 –> 00:43:54.615
and become blocked because there’s no certain path.

696
00:43:55.155 –> 00:43:58.615
Right. You know, and that’s why I stick to the what are my three options

697
00:43:58.915 –> 00:44:02.540
out is because, an exponential number

698
00:44:02.540 –> 00:44:05.740
of options out means I won’t have clarity, and I won’t be able to see

699
00:44:05.740 –> 00:44:09.440
something as it is well. And one option

700
00:44:10.060 –> 00:44:13.655
is, like, is locked on perfection and and

701
00:44:13.655 –> 00:44:17.255
thinking you understand all the opportunities. Like, you don’t know what’s around

702
00:44:17.255 –> 00:44:19.835
another corner. You don’t know what’s behind another door.

703
00:44:20.855 –> 00:44:24.695
And too many people need certainty. And that’s

704
00:44:24.695 –> 00:44:28.320
why they’ll sit on the sidelines, judging because they were

705
00:44:28.320 –> 00:44:31.700
too afraid to just, like, take kind of some leaps of faith

706
00:44:32.480 –> 00:44:36.180
about where something will take them. Mhmm. And,

707
00:44:36.400 –> 00:44:40.020
you know, as you get older, you realize how little you knew

708
00:44:40.415 –> 00:44:44.195
or could ever predict about what those opportunities were. You just have to have,

709
00:44:45.455 –> 00:44:49.295
I don’t even wanna say faith. Just know that, you know, you learn more

710
00:44:49.295 –> 00:44:52.755
with each opportunity that’s new and you per you know, and you pursue.

711
00:44:53.455 –> 00:44:57.110
And that and your path will change because you

712
00:44:57.110 –> 00:45:00.890
learn more. Yeah. Yeah. Be reckless

713
00:45:01.030 –> 00:45:04.870
and, you know, and, expect the world, but

714
00:45:04.870 –> 00:45:08.265
also don’t stop because you need certainty. It’s this balance

715
00:45:08.825 –> 00:45:12.444
around optionality and just having a vision towards growth.

716
00:45:14.025 –> 00:45:16.605
And, you know, even more importantly,

717
00:45:17.625 –> 00:45:21.464
recognizing that from a job I always pursue economic. I

718
00:45:21.464 –> 00:45:25.170
wanna be economically viable in the marketplace. Right? Because

719
00:45:25.170 –> 00:45:28.609
economic viability gives me options so that I’m not locked

720
00:45:29.490 –> 00:45:33.330
Mhmm. Into a specific career that may be dead ended

721
00:45:33.330 –> 00:45:36.390
or a company that is dead ended. Economic viability,

722
00:45:37.570 –> 00:45:41.275
it means I have optionality. I wanna make sure I’m valued in the

723
00:45:41.275 –> 00:45:44.735
marketplace, so I develop skills that are valued in the marketplace.

724
00:45:45.435 –> 00:45:49.115
And I am always looking at a job as, like, it’s a

725
00:45:49.115 –> 00:45:52.635
partnership. I am there like, they are paying me for

726
00:45:52.635 –> 00:45:56.380
results. They’re not my butt in a seat. They’re not paying,

727
00:45:56.680 –> 00:46:00.520
you know, or some companies are, but those aren’t companies I

728
00:46:00.520 –> 00:46:04.200
wanna work for. They’re not paying for me to look busy. They’re

729
00:46:04.200 –> 00:46:07.339
paying me to deliver results that matter.

730
00:46:08.525 –> 00:46:12.285
And so I look at, you know, am I delivering results that

731
00:46:12.285 –> 00:46:16.045
matter? And it may be different if you have internal customers versus

732
00:46:16.045 –> 00:46:19.345
external customers. And what skills am I gaining,

733
00:46:19.885 –> 00:46:23.620
yeah, that I can take to that next opportunity? Unfortunately,

734
00:46:24.160 –> 00:46:27.920
you know, too many people think a job is is a guarantee and

735
00:46:27.920 –> 00:46:31.760
a right, and too many people

736
00:46:31.760 –> 00:46:35.540
think that there’s just one prescribed path and that learning stops after college.

737
00:46:35.985 –> 00:46:39.425
Right. Yeah. Or even worse or sometimes worse, high school, which

738
00:46:39.425 –> 00:46:43.265
is a whole other a whole other bailiwick. Yeah. Alright. Let’s

739
00:46:43.265 –> 00:46:46.705
go back to the book, back to Tender is the Night. I wanna I wanna

740
00:46:46.705 –> 00:46:49.685
talk a little bit deeper about we we kinda touched on therapy,

741
00:46:50.900 –> 00:46:53.780
and then sort of the model that’s used in Tender is the Night. But I

742
00:46:53.780 –> 00:46:57.380
wanna pick up deep into the book.

743
00:46:57.380 –> 00:47:00.120
So we kinda introduced, Rosemary there.

744
00:47:01.460 –> 00:47:05.174
I’m gonna kinda go into book

745
00:47:05.174 –> 00:47:08.694
two. And and in book two of, Tender is the

746
00:47:08.694 –> 00:47:12.454
Night, Fitzgerald, retcons. Well, not

747
00:47:12.454 –> 00:47:15.595
retcons. He he he goes back into the history

748
00:47:16.230 –> 00:47:19.990
of Dick Divers and Nicole Warren. And we

749
00:47:19.990 –> 00:47:23.430
begin to learn that Nicole was a, a

750
00:47:23.430 –> 00:47:27.030
psychiatric patient, that, Dick was, in

751
00:47:27.030 –> 00:47:29.050
essence, brought in to

752
00:47:30.790 –> 00:47:34.345
manage. And as he begins

753
00:47:34.345 –> 00:47:38.105
to, deal with her, as he begins to treat

754
00:47:38.105 –> 00:47:41.724
her for her for her mental illness, her schizophrenia,

755
00:47:43.625 –> 00:47:47.320
he falls in love with her. Right? And this, of course, works

756
00:47:47.320 –> 00:47:50.920
really well for the Warren family, who are wealthy and willing to throw

757
00:47:50.920 –> 00:47:54.440
money around. Nicole’s, older sister, baby

758
00:47:54.440 –> 00:47:56.220
Warren, is a

759
00:47:59.445 –> 00:48:03.145
a mini tyrant in her own right. You’ll see that later on in book three,

760
00:48:03.605 –> 00:48:07.225
after, as I already mentioned, Dick gets into a fight with some Italian

761
00:48:07.445 –> 00:48:11.205
gendarmes, which is not really the term, but it’s okay. It

762
00:48:11.205 –> 00:48:14.940
works. And, and, and has and is thrown in jail,

763
00:48:15.000 –> 00:48:18.619
and baby Warren is the only one that could get him out.

764
00:48:21.160 –> 00:48:24.920
There’s something there’s something there about a screaming socialite that I wanna

765
00:48:24.920 –> 00:48:28.405
say, but I don’t I think I wanna just leave it there. Just wanna let

766
00:48:28.405 –> 00:48:31.625
it sit. Just gonna let that sit.

767
00:48:33.045 –> 00:48:36.484
But, but during the course of

768
00:48:36.484 –> 00:48:40.165
doctor Diver’s relationship with Nicole, they they moved to

769
00:48:40.165 –> 00:48:43.870
Switzerland. And he opens up a hospital there, begins

770
00:48:43.870 –> 00:48:47.470
to treat the, the patients, who

771
00:48:47.470 –> 00:48:51.250
are wealthy, of other families, who are

772
00:48:51.470 –> 00:48:55.305
expatriates, or who are coming from America to

773
00:48:55.305 –> 00:48:59.065
Europe who want a private doctor who will keep their stuff

774
00:48:59.065 –> 00:49:02.905
out of the newspaper headlines. And this creates

775
00:49:02.905 –> 00:49:06.425
problems between him and Nicole, now not no

776
00:49:06.425 –> 00:49:09.869
longer Nicole Warren, but now Nicole Diver. And,

777
00:49:10.589 –> 00:49:14.210
the problems come to a head in chapter 15

778
00:49:14.750 –> 00:49:17.950
in book two of Tender is the Night. So I wanna pick up here. I

779
00:49:17.950 –> 00:49:20.690
wanna read some sections in here. That way, you can see just

780
00:49:21.470 –> 00:49:24.795
how fragile things become with

781
00:49:25.035 –> 00:49:28.795
Nicole. Meals with the patients were a chore

782
00:49:28.795 –> 00:49:32.555
he approached with apathy. The gathering, which, of

783
00:49:32.555 –> 00:49:36.315
course, did not include residents at the Glentine or the Beaches, was

784
00:49:36.315 –> 00:49:39.860
conventional enough at first sight, but it brooded always a heavy

785
00:49:39.860 –> 00:49:42.440
melancholy. But over it, brooded always a heavy melancholy.

786
00:49:43.700 –> 00:49:47.540
Such doctors were present, kept up a conversation, but most of the

787
00:49:47.540 –> 00:49:51.300
patients, as if exhausted by their morning’s endeavor or depressed by the

788
00:49:51.300 –> 00:49:54.015
company, spoke little and ate looking into their plates.

789
00:49:55.055 –> 00:49:58.815
Luncheon over, Dick returned to his villa. Nicole was in the salon wearing

790
00:49:58.815 –> 00:50:02.275
a strange expression. Read that, she said.

791
00:50:02.894 –> 00:50:06.654
He opened the letter. It was from a woman recently discharged, though

792
00:50:06.654 –> 00:50:10.090
with skepticism on the part of the faculty, and accused him in no

793
00:50:10.090 –> 00:50:13.850
uncertain terms of having seduced her daughter who had been at her mother’s side

794
00:50:13.850 –> 00:50:17.530
during the crucial stage of the illness. It presumed that missus Diver would

795
00:50:17.530 –> 00:50:21.369
be glad to have this information and learn what her

796
00:50:21.369 –> 00:50:25.165
husband was, quote, unquote, really like. Dick

797
00:50:25.165 –> 00:50:28.605
read the letter again. Ouch, in a clear and concise English, he yet

798
00:50:28.605 –> 00:50:32.444
recognized it as the letter of a maniac. Upon a single occasion,

799
00:50:32.444 –> 00:50:36.045
he had let the girl, a flirtatious little brunette, ride into Zurich with him upon

800
00:50:36.045 –> 00:50:39.550
her request, and in the evening had brought her back to the clinic. In an

801
00:50:39.550 –> 00:50:43.390
idle, almost indulgent way, he kissed her. Later, she tried to carry the

802
00:50:43.390 –> 00:50:47.150
affair further, but he was not interested and subsequently, probably, consequently, the

803
00:50:47.150 –> 00:50:49.810
girl had come to dislike him and taken her mother away.

804
00:50:51.955 –> 00:50:55.075
This letter is deranged, he said. I had no relations of any kind with that

805
00:50:55.075 –> 00:50:58.615
girl. I didn’t even like her. Yes. I’ve tried thinking that, said Nicole.

806
00:50:58.755 –> 00:51:01.735
Surely, you don’t believe it. I’ve been sitting here.

807
00:51:02.675 –> 00:51:06.520
He sank his voice into a reproachful note and sat beside her. This is absurd.

808
00:51:06.520 –> 00:51:10.140
This is a letter from a mental patient. I was a mental patient.

809
00:51:11.079 –> 00:51:14.760
He stood up and spoke more authoritatively. Suppose you don’t have any

810
00:51:14.760 –> 00:51:18.465
nonsense, Nicole. Go and round with the children and we’ll start. In

811
00:51:18.465 –> 00:51:21.745
In the car with Dick driving, they followed the little promenitories of the lake catching

812
00:51:21.745 –> 00:51:25.585
the burn of the light and watering the windshield, tunneling through cascades of evergreen. It

813
00:51:25.585 –> 00:51:29.025
was Dick’s car, a Renault, so dwarfish that they all stuck out of it except

814
00:51:29.025 –> 00:51:32.625
the children, between whom Mademoiselle towered mass like in the

815
00:51:32.625 –> 00:51:36.310
rear seat. By the way, Mademoiselle is the, is the, governess.

816
00:51:37.010 –> 00:51:40.610
They knew every kilometer of the road where they would smell the pine needles and

817
00:51:40.610 –> 00:51:44.290
the black stove smoke. A high sun with a face traced on it beat

818
00:51:44.290 –> 00:51:46.630
fierce on the straw hats of the children.

819
00:51:48.565 –> 00:51:52.345
Nicole was silent. Dick was uneasy at her straight hard gaze.

820
00:51:52.405 –> 00:51:55.605
Often, he felt lonely with her, and frequently, she tired him with the short floods

821
00:51:55.605 –> 00:51:59.445
of personal revelations that she reserved exclusively for him. I’m like this. I’m

822
00:51:59.445 –> 00:52:02.565
more like that. But this afternoon, he would have been glad has she rattled on

823
00:52:02.565 –> 00:52:05.890
in staccato for a while and given him glimpses of her thoughts.

824
00:52:06.350 –> 00:52:09.730
The situation was always most threatening when she backed up into herself

825
00:52:10.270 –> 00:52:12.690
and closed the doors behind her.

826
00:52:13.870 –> 00:52:17.550
Then I’m going to skip through and go

827
00:52:17.550 –> 00:52:21.335
into a couple of different areas. So they

828
00:52:21.335 –> 00:52:25.175
get out of the car. They go through, a

829
00:52:25.175 –> 00:52:28.075
Punch and Judy show, through Khan,

830
00:52:28.855 –> 00:52:32.369
and then, they get, they get back into, the

831
00:52:32.369 –> 00:52:35.809
car. By the way, he also loses her at this Punch and Judy show in

832
00:52:35.809 –> 00:52:39.329
the circus, so he’s running around trying to find her. He leaves his kids with,

833
00:52:39.329 –> 00:52:42.849
like, two random French women, which is just sort of amazing to me. I would

834
00:52:42.849 –> 00:52:46.369
never do that. But okay. Whatever. I guess this is how the other half lives.

835
00:52:46.369 –> 00:52:48.685
That’s fine. And, they eventually,

836
00:52:50.985 –> 00:52:54.425
get back in the car after getting the children who were, quote, unquote, with a

837
00:52:54.425 –> 00:52:56.205
gypsy woman in a booth.

838
00:52:58.825 –> 00:53:02.510
And they start driving again. And I’m gonna

839
00:53:02.510 –> 00:53:06.190
pick up here. They started back with hot sorrows steaming down upon them. The car

840
00:53:06.190 –> 00:53:09.870
was weighted with their mutual apprehensions and anguish, and the children’s mouths are grayed

841
00:53:09.870 –> 00:53:13.310
with disappointment. Grief presented itself in its terrible, dark,

842
00:53:13.310 –> 00:53:16.875
unfamiliar color. Somewhere around Zug, Nicole, with a

843
00:53:16.875 –> 00:53:20.475
convulsive effort, reiterated remarks she had made before about a misty yellow

844
00:53:20.475 –> 00:53:24.315
house set back from the road that looked like a painting not yet dry, but

845
00:53:24.315 –> 00:53:27.855
it was just an attempt to catch a rope that was playing out too swiftly.

846
00:53:29.690 –> 00:53:32.570
Dick tried to rest. The struggle would come presently at home, and he might have

847
00:53:32.570 –> 00:53:36.350
to sit a long time restating the universe for her. A schizophren

848
00:53:36.570 –> 00:53:40.410
is well named as a split personality. Nicole was alternately a person

849
00:53:40.410 –> 00:53:43.850
whom nothing needed to be explained and one to whom nothing could be

850
00:53:43.850 –> 00:53:47.464
explained. It was necessary to treat her with active affirmative insistence,

851
00:53:47.765 –> 00:53:51.605
keeping the road to reality always open, making the road to escape harder going. But

852
00:53:51.605 –> 00:53:55.204
the brilliance, the versatility of madness is akin to the resourcefulness of

853
00:53:55.204 –> 00:53:58.740
water seeping through over and around a dike. It requires the

854
00:53:58.740 –> 00:54:02.420
unified front of many people working against it. He felt it necessary that this time

855
00:54:02.420 –> 00:54:06.180
Nicole cure herself. He wanted to wait until she remembered the other times

856
00:54:06.180 –> 00:54:10.020
and revolted from them. In a tired way, he planned that they would again

857
00:54:10.020 –> 00:54:13.795
resume the regime, relaxed a year before. He

858
00:54:13.795 –> 00:54:16.755
had turned up a hill, then it made a shortcut to the clinic. And now

859
00:54:16.755 –> 00:54:20.275
as he stepped onto the accelerator for a short straightaway run parallel to the hillside,

860
00:54:20.275 –> 00:54:24.115
the car swerved violently left, swerved right, tipped on two

861
00:54:24.115 –> 00:54:27.900
wheels, and as Dick with Nicole’s voice screaming in his ear, crushed

862
00:54:27.900 –> 00:54:31.660
down the mad hand clutching the steering wheel, righted itself,

863
00:54:31.660 –> 00:54:35.420
swerved once more, and shot off the road. It tore through low underbrush, tipped again,

864
00:54:35.420 –> 00:54:38.400
and settled slowly at an angle of 90 degrees against the tree.

865
00:54:39.339 –> 00:54:43.135
The children were screaming, and Nicole was screaming and cursing and trying

866
00:54:43.135 –> 00:54:46.894
to tear Dick’s face. Thinking first of the list of

867
00:54:46.894 –> 00:54:50.335
the car and unable to estimate it, Dick bent away Nicole’s

868
00:54:50.335 –> 00:54:54.095
arm, climbed over the top side, and lifted out the children. Then he

869
00:54:54.095 –> 00:54:57.660
saw the car was in a stable position. Before doing anything

870
00:54:57.660 –> 00:55:01.420
else, he stood there shaking and panting. You, he

871
00:55:01.420 –> 00:55:04.880
cried. She was laughing hilariously, unashamed,

872
00:55:04.940 –> 00:55:08.780
unafraid, unconcerned. No one was coming on to the

873
00:55:08.780 –> 00:55:12.545
scene no one coming on to the scene would have imagined that she would

874
00:55:12.545 –> 00:55:16.244
have caused it. She laughed after some mild escape of childhood.

875
00:55:17.425 –> 00:55:21.265
You were scared, weren’t you? She accused him. You wanted to live. She

876
00:55:21.265 –> 00:55:24.890
spoke with such a force, and in his shocked state, Dick wondered if he had

877
00:55:24.890 –> 00:55:28.590
been frightened for himself. But the strained faces of the children,

878
00:55:28.730 –> 00:55:32.430
looking from parent to parent, made him want to grind her grinning

879
00:55:32.490 –> 00:55:35.150
mask into jelly.

880
00:55:37.610 –> 00:55:39.310
Let’s talk about mental illness.

881
00:55:41.385 –> 00:55:45.145
The question I have here is probably not the greatest one about creative talent

882
00:55:45.145 –> 00:55:48.905
and time such as hours. So I’m gonna ask a different kind of

883
00:55:48.905 –> 00:55:51.705
question. Olivia, I’m gonna call it audible on this one. I’m gonna ask a different

884
00:55:51.705 –> 00:55:52.620
kind of question here.

885
00:55:55.420 –> 00:55:59.120
I don’t have a whole lot of experience with mental illness, particularly schizophrenia,

886
00:56:00.540 –> 00:56:04.140
at a practical level. I’ve known people who have

887
00:56:04.140 –> 00:56:07.454
been anxious. I’ve known people who have been depressed. I have people in my family

888
00:56:07.454 –> 00:56:11.295
who suffer from anxiety and depression. So I’ve seen up close what that looks

889
00:56:11.295 –> 00:56:15.135
like. I myself have, been

890
00:56:15.135 –> 00:56:18.974
a depressed person, and have bootstrapped myself out of that,

891
00:56:20.870 –> 00:56:24.550
primarily because I’m obstinate and prideful. Those are my own two

892
00:56:24.550 –> 00:56:27.530
sins. I’m also ridiculously stubborn,

893
00:56:28.870 –> 00:56:31.910
and I refuse to ask for help for something that I think I can solve

894
00:56:31.910 –> 00:56:34.664
for myself. So those are my,

895
00:56:35.285 –> 00:56:37.704
particular problems and foibles.

896
00:56:39.365 –> 00:56:42.184
But I’ve never dealt with someone with

897
00:56:42.964 –> 00:56:46.690
that sort of split, right, personality. And I

898
00:56:46.690 –> 00:56:50.310
don’t know if you have, in your experience.

899
00:56:50.930 –> 00:56:53.590
So I guess the question here is

900
00:56:56.290 –> 00:56:59.895
or no. Not the question. The the framing around the question is this.

901
00:56:59.895 –> 00:57:03.435
So the Victorians, where Freud came out of,

902
00:57:04.695 –> 00:57:08.075
sought to leverage psychiatry

903
00:57:08.535 –> 00:57:11.515
as a way to substitute for social shaming,

904
00:57:12.855 –> 00:57:16.619
and as a way to to to to shortcut social

905
00:57:16.619 –> 00:57:20.460
norming. Right? Because if we could just get people to be normal, right, and go

906
00:57:20.460 –> 00:57:24.140
along, then everything would be fine. Right? And yet there’s

907
00:57:24.140 –> 00:57:27.660
these people showing up with these splits, and they do this thing, and then they

908
00:57:27.660 –> 00:57:31.445
do that thing, and we don’t understand why. And Jordan

909
00:57:31.445 –> 00:57:34.805
Peterson, along with many others, I’ll just use him as a a public

910
00:57:34.805 –> 00:57:38.405
example. Doctor Jordan Peterson talks about how and I think this is very

911
00:57:38.405 –> 00:57:41.865
interesting, particularly when we’re talking about transgender individuals.

912
00:57:42.645 –> 00:57:44.540
There’s a there’s a social

913
00:57:46.280 –> 00:57:49.960
negotiation that goes on between all of us as individuals and then the

914
00:57:49.960 –> 00:57:53.720
larger society. Right? We shouldn’t

915
00:57:53.720 –> 00:57:57.260
be trying to get the larger society to bend to our individual whims.

916
00:57:57.845 –> 00:58:01.625
Instead, we should be trying to bend to the whims of society because maybe

917
00:58:02.645 –> 00:58:06.484
the wisdom of crowds is actually a thing, and maybe people who

918
00:58:06.484 –> 00:58:09.300
have come before us may actually know something. Okay.

919
00:58:14.340 –> 00:58:18.180
Mental illness is the is the the the primary feature in

920
00:58:18.180 –> 00:58:22.020
Tinder is the night. Past all of the stuff with, like,

921
00:58:22.020 –> 00:58:25.515
ingenues that you get with Rosemary or

922
00:58:25.515 –> 00:58:29.355
the alcoholism and the self medication which you get with Dick

923
00:58:29.355 –> 00:58:32.415
and everybody else. But Nicole

924
00:58:33.035 –> 00:58:36.795
and her family, the Warrens, specifically are

925
00:58:36.795 –> 00:58:40.510
impacted by mental illness. And Nicole even breaks up her

926
00:58:40.510 –> 00:58:43.810
marriage because she feels she is cured

927
00:58:44.430 –> 00:58:48.210
of her mental illness even though there’s some argument to be made that

928
00:58:48.510 –> 00:58:50.290
the guy that she goes off with

929
00:58:53.424 –> 00:58:56.865
Might be a little bit touched in the head himself as my grandma might say

930
00:58:56.865 –> 00:59:00.704
back in the day. Well, back in the day, they I

931
00:59:00.704 –> 00:59:03.045
mean, they’re rough back in the day. Right?

932
00:59:05.200 –> 00:59:08.880
And I’m wandering towards the question here. So I guess the question is I had

933
00:59:08.880 –> 00:59:11.600
all that framing. So let me wander towards let me phrase the actual question, right,

934
00:59:11.600 –> 00:59:15.200
and give you a chance to speak here. So yeah. So how do

935
00:59:15.200 –> 00:59:19.035
we how do we deal with each other when we’re mentally ill? And, you know,

936
00:59:19.035 –> 00:59:22.315
I don’t know. That that right. Like, this like, this is this is one of

937
00:59:22.315 –> 00:59:25.595
the huge things for tender is the night that I could not I couldn’t get

938
00:59:25.595 –> 00:59:28.895
my arms around it. I can’t either,

939
00:59:29.915 –> 00:59:33.135
largely because it’s a spectrum. Right? Right.

940
00:59:34.230 –> 00:59:37.370
So you have the full on,

941
00:59:38.870 –> 00:59:42.710
you know, one extreme where people need to

942
00:59:42.710 –> 00:59:46.470
be institutionalized because they cannot

943
00:59:46.470 –> 00:59:50.105
help themselves, and they are of physical harm

944
00:59:50.105 –> 00:59:53.865
to others. Right. We see a lot of

945
00:59:53.865 –> 00:59:57.244
those on the streets of San Francisco. Mhmm.

946
00:59:57.865 –> 01:00:01.645
And then there’s a full other

947
01:00:01.705 –> 01:00:05.540
spectrum where people

948
01:00:05.540 –> 01:00:09.380
just want attention and they act out for, like,

949
01:00:09.380 –> 01:00:12.760
attention. Mhmm. Do that a lot right now.

950
01:00:13.140 –> 01:00:14.120
Mhmm. Yeah.

951
01:00:17.140 –> 01:00:20.665
And I think if you feed it too much,

952
01:00:21.525 –> 01:00:24.505
it it evolves into greater psychoses

953
01:00:25.125 –> 01:00:28.885
that force people into a reality that

954
01:00:28.885 –> 01:00:32.670
is completely detached from reality, and they do become even more more

955
01:00:32.670 –> 01:00:34.210
ill. Mhmm.

956
01:00:36.510 –> 01:00:40.190
I really I I I don’t think there’s a one size fits

957
01:00:40.190 –> 01:00:43.970
all. I I personally haven’t dealt with anyone

958
01:00:44.109 –> 01:00:47.714
who has schizophrenia, but I don’t know if my definition of

959
01:00:47.714 –> 01:00:51.154
schizophrenia is based off of, you know, Sally Field’s

960
01:00:51.154 –> 01:00:54.994
movies, you know, in the nineteen seventies and if that’s

961
01:00:54.994 –> 01:00:57.575
real or not. Ordinary ordinary people.

962
01:01:01.780 –> 01:01:05.540
But I only know from, you know, for

963
01:01:05.540 –> 01:01:09.300
me, similar to you, I dealt with

964
01:01:09.300 –> 01:01:12.760
my my own, depression.

965
01:01:13.515 –> 01:01:15.694
And I would I don’t know if it was actually depression,

966
01:01:17.115 –> 01:01:20.654
but I did medicate with, alcohol

967
01:01:21.434 –> 01:01:24.795
and, you know, kinda that accelerate accelerated her path

968
01:01:24.795 –> 01:01:26.974
into, like, shame and depression.

969
01:01:28.869 –> 01:01:32.470
That is very common for, you know, addicts of any of any

970
01:01:32.470 –> 01:01:35.690
type. And the only thing

971
01:01:36.390 –> 01:01:40.150
you know, and I yeah. My bottom was feeling you know, is when

972
01:01:40.150 –> 01:01:43.935
I am super stubborn as well, I don’t ask

973
01:01:43.935 –> 01:01:47.695
for help. I don’t you know, I’m not someone who wants you know,

974
01:01:47.695 –> 01:01:51.315
who will tell people when things are going on Mhmm. That’s positive

975
01:01:51.375 –> 01:01:54.735
because I’m not I don’t want attention for either. You know?

976
01:01:54.735 –> 01:01:58.510
Right. I don’t I’m not I just wanna deliver

977
01:01:58.570 –> 01:02:01.950
and do great things and go on to the next thing.

978
01:02:02.170 –> 01:02:05.770
Mhmm. And but the shame when it

979
01:02:05.770 –> 01:02:09.230
was no longer acceptable to be the party girl

980
01:02:09.530 –> 01:02:13.345
and you’re still, like, you know, drinking and doing all that stuff

981
01:02:13.345 –> 01:02:16.865
was enough to start to get me on a path to wanting to

982
01:02:16.865 –> 01:02:20.704
fix myself. But, shaming is

983
01:02:20.704 –> 01:02:21.684
very effective.

984
01:02:24.464 –> 01:02:28.200
Okay. And I but I and I think there’s a balance.

985
01:02:28.980 –> 01:02:32.360
I will also say I was a heavy kid. Right? Mhmm. And

986
01:02:32.980 –> 01:02:36.180
heavy by nineteen seventies standards, not by

987
01:02:36.180 –> 01:02:39.620
02/2025 standards. Okay. Sure. Right?

988
01:02:39.620 –> 01:02:43.405
And, I didn’t like that it took me a

989
01:02:43.405 –> 01:02:47.165
long time to find clothes that fit. Right. And so

990
01:02:47.165 –> 01:02:50.765
what did I do about it? I learned about, like, you

991
01:02:50.765 –> 01:02:53.905
burn calories. Yeah. It’s the it’s the mathematics

992
01:02:54.285 –> 01:02:58.020
of your what you take in and what you burn. Mhmm. And

993
01:02:58.020 –> 01:03:01.539
I found great ways. I found out I liked tennis, and that tennis would make

994
01:03:01.539 –> 01:03:05.140
me not only did it help me to lose weight, but I felt

995
01:03:05.140 –> 01:03:08.565
really great afterwards. Mhmm. I found things that

996
01:03:08.565 –> 01:03:12.265
opportunistically, I didn’t, like, find, like, one path that worked.

997
01:03:12.405 –> 01:03:16.085
But I was like, oh my gosh. Like, tennis actually feels really great.

998
01:03:16.085 –> 01:03:19.525
Hitting the tennis ball against the, against the

999
01:03:19.525 –> 01:03:23.370
garage door or playing tetherball with myself. Like, those were ways that I just

1000
01:03:23.370 –> 01:03:27.050
got myself out of feeling bad and

1001
01:03:27.050 –> 01:03:30.890
victim and into trying to do something about it. Those are

1002
01:03:30.890 –> 01:03:33.930
words that I use today. Those are words not words that I had when I

1003
01:03:33.930 –> 01:03:37.525
was eight, nine, 10, 11 years old. Right. I just knew what

1004
01:03:37.525 –> 01:03:41.125
felt good. And for me, fortunately, it was

1005
01:03:41.125 –> 01:03:44.185
things that were you know, had actually

1006
01:03:44.885 –> 01:03:48.645
led to a healthy life and to being successful because I was willing to work

1007
01:03:48.645 –> 01:03:51.460
really hard. And it felt a lot better to work hard,

1008
01:03:52.480 –> 01:03:55.779
than to sit and complain that life wasn’t going my way.

1009
01:03:58.079 –> 01:04:01.760
Yep. But that’s how I’m wired. Right. Right.

1010
01:04:01.760 –> 01:04:05.255
And and this is okay. So this is this is one of the

1011
01:04:05.255 –> 01:04:08.635
challenges of reading, a book like this or,

1012
01:04:09.175 –> 01:04:12.395
you know, watching a movie like I mean, I did make the joke, Ordinary People

1013
01:04:12.535 –> 01:04:15.815
or, you know, any other joke about mental illness. I mean, I think of the

1014
01:04:15.815 –> 01:04:19.140
movie in the nineteen nineties with Billy Bob Thornton with who’s the autistic guy,

1015
01:04:19.680 –> 01:04:21.540
Sling Blade. You know?

1016
01:04:32.720 –> 01:04:36.445
It’s one of those things. Again, I don’t I don’t understand how reality is put

1017
01:04:36.445 –> 01:04:39.585
together. Right? I I just I just don’t. I’m trying to figure it out. Right?

1018
01:04:40.045 –> 01:04:43.725
And I don’t understand at how how

1019
01:04:43.725 –> 01:04:47.500
mental illness operates at multiple levels. Right? And

1020
01:04:47.500 –> 01:04:50.460
I don’t think anybody does, by the way. I think even the most highly educated

1021
01:04:50.460 –> 01:04:54.240
people don’t understand how it works. Right? Even the most highly educated

1022
01:04:54.380 –> 01:04:58.000
in this space. They could just tell you what the best guesses

1023
01:04:58.060 –> 01:05:00.240
are because it’s individualized,

1024
01:05:01.925 –> 01:05:04.984
and there’s certain aspects of treatment

1025
01:05:05.445 –> 01:05:09.285
that only work for certain kinds of people and don’t work for others.

1026
01:05:09.285 –> 01:05:12.665
So one of our one of our guest hosts, cohost, Dave Baumrucker,

1027
01:05:13.365 –> 01:05:16.105
works in the clinical psychological space.

1028
01:05:18.030 –> 01:05:21.810
And, a good friend of mine, we we were we were rugby teammates

1029
01:05:21.870 –> 01:05:25.470
years ago and went to college together, and he’s gone off and done other things.

1030
01:05:25.470 –> 01:05:27.650
I’ve gone off and done other things. It’s been amazing.

1031
01:05:29.150 –> 01:05:32.175
But in that space of clinical psychology,

1032
01:05:33.275 –> 01:05:37.115
it and it’s not just when I hear him describe it. It’s other clinical psychologists

1033
01:05:37.115 –> 01:05:40.415
who I’ve heard describe it. It seems a lot like whack a mole.

1034
01:05:47.569 –> 01:05:50.690
And not to lean too much into the religious pieces of it, but I do

1035
01:05:50.690 –> 01:05:54.530
think there’s a spiritual element to this, which, again, we do not understand. We

1036
01:05:54.530 –> 01:05:58.214
just don’t get. I do think it’s there because why would it be everywhere

1037
01:05:58.214 –> 01:06:01.974
else but not there? Okay. That makes no sense. And

1038
01:06:01.974 –> 01:06:05.655
you even kinda touched on it a little bit where you you said at

1039
01:06:05.655 –> 01:06:08.775
an emotional level where you, like, you decided, I don’t like this thing, and so

1040
01:06:08.775 –> 01:06:12.369
I’m gonna go over here and leverage this skill that I know I have here

1041
01:06:12.589 –> 01:06:16.349
to get this outcome here, to go into the backdoor, to get this

1042
01:06:16.349 –> 01:06:20.049
outcome here, to stop this thing here from happening. That’s a

1043
01:06:20.109 –> 01:06:23.825
multifaceted solution that’s unique to you. I wouldn’t have

1044
01:06:23.825 –> 01:06:27.664
gone and picked up tennis. I just would have doubled down on the drinking probably

1045
01:06:27.664 –> 01:06:31.424
because I’m just that guy. Right? Or

1046
01:06:31.424 –> 01:06:34.865
I would have because, again, because I’m hard headed, I would have just run into

1047
01:06:34.865 –> 01:06:38.330
a wall eventually at a certain point. No. It wasn’t like an

1048
01:06:38.330 –> 01:06:42.170
overnight. It wasn’t an overnight Sure. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No.

1049
01:06:42.170 –> 01:06:45.290
No. No. No. And I’m not I wanna be very clear. I’m not being reductive

1050
01:06:45.290 –> 01:06:48.110
in your experience. I wanna be very clear about that. Right?

1051
01:06:49.130 –> 01:06:52.975
And it did it did take time. But when we’re

1052
01:06:52.975 –> 01:06:56.655
dealing with, like, Nicole driving, you know, the

1053
01:06:56.655 –> 01:07:00.335
car over, you know, off the road, at that

1054
01:07:00.335 –> 01:07:04.170
point in the book where I was there, I

1055
01:07:04.170 –> 01:07:07.609
stopped reading. I just stopped reading for a little while and walk away from it

1056
01:07:07.609 –> 01:07:10.970
because I thought, I don’t know how he didn’t kill

1057
01:07:10.970 –> 01:07:14.730
her. I I I don’t know how he didn’t strangle that woman in

1058
01:07:14.730 –> 01:07:18.325
the car. I don’t know how that didn’t happen because this isn’t

1059
01:07:18.325 –> 01:07:22.085
like, you know, cars with airbags in 2025. Like, this

1060
01:07:22.085 –> 01:07:25.845
isn’t that in rollover and all that. Like, a car in 2025, it’s a

1061
01:07:25.845 –> 01:07:29.685
bad thing. Don’t get me wrong. But it’ll survive a rollover accident, whatever

1062
01:07:29.685 –> 01:07:33.340
airbag safety features. This is a car in the nineteen twenties. So it’s probably closer

1063
01:07:33.340 –> 01:07:37.020
to, like, a model a or a model t, one of those

1064
01:07:37.020 –> 01:07:40.640
crappy Renaults. Like, there was no safety anything.

1065
01:07:41.180 –> 01:07:44.640
Like, there’s no seat belts.

1066
01:07:45.285 –> 01:07:49.125
So but I I what you’re what you’re getting at is a is

1067
01:07:49.125 –> 01:07:52.825
a whole another a whole another question. So one, what’s the solution

1068
01:07:52.885 –> 01:07:56.724
to mental illness? And two, what’s your response

1069
01:07:56.724 –> 01:08:00.430
to someone else’s you know, mental illness? Absolutely. Yes. Okay.

1070
01:08:00.430 –> 01:08:04.270
Sure. Yeah. The latter is detaching yourself from, like, one

1071
01:08:04.270 –> 01:08:07.810
of the the greatest skills that I’ve

1072
01:08:07.870 –> 01:08:11.630
developed over the last, like, twenty years is detaching yourself from

1073
01:08:11.630 –> 01:08:15.315
how others perceive you, or detaching from how

1074
01:08:15.315 –> 01:08:18.854
others treat you because their experience

1075
01:08:19.395 –> 01:08:22.694
you know, I I actually I I think I’m just

1076
01:08:23.155 –> 01:08:26.850
a target based off what someone else’s life experience has been. It has

1077
01:08:26.850 –> 01:08:30.310
very little to do with my intention. It has very little to do with how

1078
01:08:30.529 –> 01:08:34.290
I’ve delivered or what I’ve done. You know, they’re acting based off of

1079
01:08:34.290 –> 01:08:37.909
their life experience. You know, today,

1080
01:08:38.370 –> 01:08:42.195
I can create boundaries so that person is no

1081
01:08:42.195 –> 01:08:45.875
long so I’m no longer in physical danger or emotion

1082
01:08:46.035 –> 01:08:49.555
or I don’t have to deal with the emotional up and downs that that that

1083
01:08:49.555 –> 01:08:53.155
individual can create or the drama that they can create. I can

1084
01:08:53.155 –> 01:08:55.015
have compassion for their situation,

1085
01:08:58.090 –> 01:09:01.149
but I won’t I no longer take it personally.

1086
01:09:02.329 –> 01:09:05.389
Mhmm. Right? I and, you know, and

1087
01:09:05.770 –> 01:09:09.555
if Nicole yeah. Yeah. I would have been livid,

1088
01:09:09.555 –> 01:09:13.234
but me being mad about it won’t change it. Right? And

1089
01:09:13.234 –> 01:09:16.854
that’s very different than where I would have been twenty years ago. Twenty years,

1090
01:09:17.154 –> 01:09:20.595
I would have been irate and yelling, but that’s not gonna change the

1091
01:09:20.595 –> 01:09:23.760
situation. So that’s what what do I do now.

1092
01:09:24.000 –> 01:09:27.760
Right? I I can I I would’ve I would’ve been irated

1093
01:09:27.760 –> 01:09:31.599
Nicole as well if it had just been me in the car? Yeah. It was

1094
01:09:31.599 –> 01:09:34.340
a kids. Yeah. And now it’s my kids. And

1095
01:09:38.194 –> 01:09:41.875
I’ve invested a lot in these people. That’s

1096
01:09:41.875 –> 01:09:45.175
what your next set of actions are. Right? Yeah. Right. Yeah.

1097
01:09:45.795 –> 01:09:49.314
Take take the children away. You need to put her into a place where she’s

1098
01:09:49.314 –> 01:09:52.970
safe because she’s she now is not safe for society

1099
01:09:52.970 –> 01:09:56.570
and or the family. Right. Right. Right. And now I have to make I have

1100
01:09:56.570 –> 01:10:00.410
to have a hard conversation with I mean, I have to have

1101
01:10:00.410 –> 01:10:02.990
a hard conversation with my children. Mommy’s gotta

1102
01:10:04.010 –> 01:10:07.775
mommy’s gotta go for a while. Mommy mommy can’t stay. So that’s gonna

1103
01:10:07.775 –> 01:10:11.535
be one hard conversation. The other hard conversation is going to be with

1104
01:10:11.535 –> 01:10:14.915
Nicole’s family, which we’ll get to that in a second here.

1105
01:10:14.975 –> 01:10:18.575
But, I can’t have this person around my children. I don’t care how much money

1106
01:10:18.575 –> 01:10:22.239
you have that Yep. Set it on fire like the dark like the Joker or

1107
01:10:22.239 –> 01:10:25.940
the Dark Knight. Whatever. I don’t care. Doesn’t matter to me.

1108
01:10:26.000 –> 01:10:29.760
You don’t you don’t have enough. Okay. And then because

1109
01:10:29.760 –> 01:10:33.360
that’s gonna be one hard conversation. That’s gonna be second hard conversation. The third hard

1110
01:10:33.360 –> 01:10:36.805
conversation is going to quite frankly be with Nicole because,

1111
01:10:37.105 –> 01:10:40.945
you know, when she’s not in her right mind, it’s not

1112
01:10:40.945 –> 01:10:43.985
gonna matter. Which when she is in her right mind and is gonna wanna know

1113
01:10:43.985 –> 01:10:47.585
what’s going on, you can’t have, sort of

1114
01:10:47.585 –> 01:10:51.250
a, you know, Rapunzel kind of posture.

1115
01:10:51.309 –> 01:10:54.690
Like, you can’t just lock her in a tower and hope everything’s gonna work out.

1116
01:10:54.750 –> 01:10:57.949
You know, you have to sort of get some info. And, again, this is this

1117
01:10:57.949 –> 01:11:00.929
is all about me not understanding how all this clicks together.

1118
01:11:02.935 –> 01:11:06.695
And so looking at those three hard conversations, I love it how

1119
01:11:06.695 –> 01:11:10.395
you talked about boundaries in order to to avoid taking it personally,

1120
01:11:10.935 –> 01:11:14.455
but also being equipped to have those conversations. And

1121
01:11:14.455 –> 01:11:17.300
weirdly enough, because the because

1122
01:11:18.240 –> 01:11:21.380
Dick Diver’s doctor, Dick Diver’s, was so clinical,

1123
01:11:24.560 –> 01:11:27.300
the way Fitzgerald wrote him,

1124
01:11:28.284 –> 01:11:31.724
because I don’t think Fitzgerald actually did research into clinicians. I think he just based

1125
01:11:31.724 –> 01:11:35.565
it off of what he saw Exactly. Yeah. And put a chunk of

1126
01:11:35.565 –> 01:11:39.005
his own personality in there. He didn’t have the ability to put the

1127
01:11:39.005 –> 01:11:42.699
boundary in, and so Dick didn’t have the ability to put the boundary in, much

1128
01:11:42.699 –> 01:11:46.540
less have the hard conversation. He just sort of and this is Dick’s end.

1129
01:11:46.540 –> 01:11:49.900
He just sort of took the Warren’s money and, for lack of a better term,

1130
01:11:49.900 –> 01:11:53.260
ran. And I hate that. I hate framing it like that, but it’s

1131
01:11:53.260 –> 01:11:56.735
true. It, yeah, I mean, that and it happens way too

1132
01:11:56.735 –> 01:12:00.494
frequently. It’s it’s the expert class. Right?

1133
01:12:00.494 –> 01:12:03.875
Right. It’s about putting faith into the expert class

1134
01:12:04.415 –> 01:12:08.175
even when it’s not you know, the the psychology of

1135
01:12:08.175 –> 01:12:11.450
the time was the expert and but it’s not working.

1136
01:12:11.910 –> 01:12:15.050
Right. You know, so

1137
01:12:19.030 –> 01:12:22.570
Well and you can see it in the way the book ends. Like, the

1138
01:12:23.255 –> 01:12:26.855
the I won’t ruin it for folks, but when you go read it, like, the

1139
01:12:26.855 –> 01:12:30.235
last page of the book book three, which is the end of the book,

1140
01:12:30.695 –> 01:12:31.735
it’s just sort of a

1141
01:12:34.455 –> 01:12:37.895
on the one hand, from a writer perspective, from a creative perspective, I

1142
01:12:37.895 –> 01:12:41.480
think Fitzgerald struggled with how to end this. He didn’t really

1143
01:12:41.480 –> 01:12:45.320
know where the ending should be. Like, how you because this could just

1144
01:12:45.320 –> 01:12:48.680
go on and on. This is just, like, whatever. You know? Oh, I’m thinking yeah.

1145
01:12:48.680 –> 01:12:52.360
All I’m thinking about is addicts, actually, and I think

1146
01:12:52.360 –> 01:12:55.835
that’s really good. I mean, it is a it it is a

1147
01:12:55.835 –> 01:12:59.355
mental I don’t like calling it an

1148
01:12:59.355 –> 01:13:03.115
illness, but it’s an a mental condition. Mhmm. And, you know,

1149
01:13:03.115 –> 01:13:06.555
one of the things when friends come to me and they’re dealing with addict you

1150
01:13:06.555 –> 01:13:09.935
know, addicts in their family, it is really hard. It’s like,

1151
01:13:10.210 –> 01:13:13.889
you know, I would actually it is gonna be a long

1152
01:13:13.889 –> 01:13:17.570
journey, and there’s no guarantee of

1153
01:13:17.570 –> 01:13:21.329
success. Yes. So you think about what’s gonna be like, I know

1154
01:13:21.329 –> 01:13:24.309
you love this person who is in your family and an addict,

1155
01:13:25.815 –> 01:13:29.355
But when it gets to one place,

1156
01:13:29.975 –> 01:13:33.815
all addicts do is lie, and all

1157
01:13:33.815 –> 01:13:37.195
they’re thinking they’re not thinking about you at all.

1158
01:13:37.470 –> 01:13:41.310
And you may want to believe that they’re thinking about you. They’re playing

1159
01:13:41.310 –> 01:13:44.750
games and telling you that they’re thinking about you, but they are not. All they’re

1160
01:13:44.750 –> 01:13:48.510
doing is thinking about their next fix and how to get it and to

1161
01:13:48.510 –> 01:13:51.695
make sure that you continue to be there,

1162
01:13:53.515 –> 01:13:57.355
to facilitate, enable their addiction. Yeah. So

1163
01:13:57.355 –> 01:14:01.035
there is no easy answer in all of this. But

1164
01:14:01.035 –> 01:14:04.640
that’s kind of late stage, And,

1165
01:14:07.260 –> 01:14:10.320
one of my you know, sadly, I’m a very rational

1166
01:14:10.620 –> 01:14:14.300
person. And, you know, one reason, like, relationships have not

1167
01:14:14.380 –> 01:14:17.265
are not, like, at the top of my

1168
01:14:17.745 –> 01:14:21.445
list outside of professional relationships is because I’m like,

1169
01:14:21.665 –> 01:14:25.345
you know, talk about it once, talk about it twice, but third time,

1170
01:14:25.345 –> 01:14:29.025
I’m out. Because I’m about taking action and not just

1171
01:14:29.025 –> 01:14:32.625
sitting in fear or, you know, or masturbating to an

1172
01:14:32.625 –> 01:14:36.460
idea. Like, let’s talk about it once, talk about it twice, and we’re out.

1173
01:14:37.480 –> 01:14:40.760
And so I don’t have a lot of tolerance. You know, I’m not gonna be

1174
01:14:40.760 –> 01:14:44.360
an enabler. Let’s just say Mhmm. Sure. But in an

1175
01:14:44.360 –> 01:14:47.880
early early in a relationship with someone who may not be

1176
01:14:47.880 –> 01:14:51.575
well, like, you can’t you’re you’re not in a position to make those types

1177
01:14:51.575 –> 01:14:55.175
of judgments because you don’t know Right. So addiction is

1178
01:14:55.175 –> 01:14:58.475
just easy to talk about. Yeah. It could just be someone just

1179
01:14:58.695 –> 01:15:02.075
drinks five nights a week, yell, a light drink,

1180
01:15:02.455 –> 01:15:06.040
and you may make a comment, but then it starts

1181
01:15:06.040 –> 01:15:09.560
to accelerate and you make another comment. But you

1182
01:15:09.560 –> 01:15:12.860
gotta start putting in boundaries where that individual

1183
01:15:13.640 –> 01:15:17.320
is not is is capable of making decisions in your best interest,

1184
01:15:17.320 –> 01:15:20.085
but they’re not. And so that’s where you have to have boundaries.

1185
01:15:21.605 –> 01:15:25.285
The challenge with, like, schizophrenia and others is are they ever in a

1186
01:15:25.285 –> 01:15:29.065
position to make the best decision for themselves?

1187
01:15:29.205 –> 01:15:32.905
And at what point do you let them out to fend for themselves

1188
01:15:33.765 –> 01:15:37.360
for AO so that your life is not negatively

1189
01:15:37.580 –> 01:15:41.420
impacted. And that’s the gray area that I I do

1190
01:15:41.420 –> 01:15:44.940
struggle with because I don’t want people living on the street. I don’t want

1191
01:15:44.940 –> 01:15:48.755
people, you know, I want people cared for. So when

1192
01:15:48.755 –> 01:15:52.514
do you actually bring in institutions to help, an

1193
01:15:52.514 –> 01:15:56.275
individual? Right. Well, in a point that has

1194
01:15:56.275 –> 01:15:59.735
been made to me by various

1195
01:15:59.795 –> 01:16:03.480
people over the last, I would say, ten years in different contexts,

1196
01:16:03.800 –> 01:16:04.860
in different conversations,

1197
01:16:09.080 –> 01:16:10.300
has been that

1198
01:16:12.600 –> 01:16:15.960
we shifted around the laws around

1199
01:16:15.960 –> 01:16:18.220
institutionalizing folks in the eighties.

1200
01:16:20.265 –> 01:16:22.525
And Ronald Reagan or Reagan’s administration,

1201
01:16:23.705 –> 01:16:27.145
shifted around a lot of the institutionalization models in the

1202
01:16:27.145 –> 01:16:30.985
eighties. And that was doubled down on in

1203
01:16:30.985 –> 01:16:34.710
the nineties. And now to fully come

1204
01:16:34.710 –> 01:16:38.410
back around to what you were talking about with, homeless people,

1205
01:16:38.470 –> 01:16:42.150
right, on the street, the vast majority of

1206
01:16:42.150 –> 01:16:45.365
homeless folks, if you take out the attics, right,

1207
01:16:45.905 –> 01:16:49.425
although a lot of there’s a lot of overlap in these two areas, but do

1208
01:16:49.425 –> 01:16:53.105
suffer from mental illness. And it’s hard to know is

1209
01:16:53.105 –> 01:16:56.545
the and I will call it I’ll call it mental illness. It’s it’s fine. But

1210
01:16:56.545 –> 01:16:59.700
it’s hard to know where the intersection and the overlap is

1211
01:17:00.260 –> 01:17:03.860
because the self medication follows from the other things.

1212
01:17:03.860 –> 01:17:07.240
Right? And so we’re in a state culturally

1213
01:17:07.940 –> 01:17:11.700
of of where we looked at

1214
01:17:11.700 –> 01:17:14.520
what went on in the institutions. And this is that cultural

1215
01:17:16.095 –> 01:17:19.855
weakness that we’re apparently going through, or a lack of

1216
01:17:19.855 –> 01:17:22.975
cultural confidence is what I say. So we have a lack of cultural confidence in

1217
01:17:22.975 –> 01:17:26.575
a lot of different areas. One of the big areas areas is immigration. Like, we

1218
01:17:26.575 –> 01:17:29.760
don’t even wanna hear the word assimilation. We don’t wanna hear. We don’t wanna hear

1219
01:17:29.760 –> 01:17:32.960
that things are gonna pause and then we’re gonna make these people be Americans, whoever

1220
01:17:32.960 –> 01:17:36.159
they are for wherever. Right? I don’t care if they’re from I don’t care if

1221
01:17:36.159 –> 01:17:39.780
they’re from South Africa, The Ukraine, or if they’re from coming across the border.

1222
01:17:39.920 –> 01:17:43.139
We don’t like that word assimilation because we don’t have the cultural confidence

1223
01:17:43.824 –> 01:17:47.665
to believe that America is the best because, guess what,

1224
01:17:47.665 –> 01:17:51.445
people chose with their feet to come here. Okay. Fine. We don’t believe it. Cool.

1225
01:17:51.665 –> 01:17:54.804
But then that cultural confident that lack of cultural confidence

1226
01:17:55.344 –> 01:17:58.910
drips into other areas. And so, of course, we have a decline of trust in

1227
01:17:58.910 –> 01:18:02.590
the institutions. It’s a it’s a it’s a circle.

1228
01:18:02.590 –> 01:18:06.350
Right? So the population loses loses trust. The

1229
01:18:06.350 –> 01:18:10.025
institution becomes less effective. The institution then changes its

1230
01:18:10.025 –> 01:18:13.865
laws in order to regain trust. That doesn’t work because now you’ve lowered the

1231
01:18:13.865 –> 01:18:17.645
bar. And now we just have the slow downward slide between institutions

1232
01:18:17.705 –> 01:18:21.465
and the culture with a lack of trust and a lack of

1233
01:18:21.465 –> 01:18:25.190
confidence until you finally wind up in, you know, San

1234
01:18:25.190 –> 01:18:29.030
Francisco in, you know, whatever that park is in San Francisco where people

1235
01:18:29.030 –> 01:18:32.230
are doing it’s an open air drug farm. And there’s there’s and you can’t tell

1236
01:18:32.230 –> 01:18:35.824
the difference between people who are schizophrenic and people who are just, you know, on

1237
01:18:35.824 –> 01:18:39.205
fentanyl laced heroin. Like, you just can’t tell the difference. Right?

1238
01:18:39.745 –> 01:18:43.425
Made a difference. Doesn’t doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter.

1239
01:18:43.425 –> 01:18:44.804
Correct. And so

1240
01:18:47.665 –> 01:18:51.460
Yeah. Bringing back the institutions is important. But one of

1241
01:18:51.460 –> 01:18:55.240
the things that we have done is we almost

1242
01:18:55.300 –> 01:18:57.400
glorify, like,

1243
01:18:59.460 –> 01:19:03.300
mental unwell unwellness. Well, that’s a sign of hedonism

1244
01:19:03.300 –> 01:19:06.955
but that’s a sign of hedonism and decadence and too much wealth. Right?

1245
01:19:09.255 –> 01:19:12.775
Where everyone’s a victim, the victim Olympics, suppression of

1246
01:19:12.775 –> 01:19:16.155
Olympics. You know? But the whole Jordan Peterson,

1247
01:19:16.695 –> 01:19:19.755
well, I think is really important is we don’t want a society,

1248
01:19:21.280 –> 01:19:24.960
you know, a society that, moves to the whims of

1249
01:19:24.960 –> 01:19:28.720
every individual. Mhmm. And we also don’t want a

1250
01:19:28.720 –> 01:19:32.560
society that doesn’t allow room for individuals to

1251
01:19:32.560 –> 01:19:35.855
be individualistic. Right. Right now,

1252
01:19:37.755 –> 01:19:41.595
people are trying to force their whims on all of us. Yeah. That’s why the

1253
01:19:41.595 –> 01:19:45.055
language is constantly changing so that we can never come to a common,

1254
01:19:46.235 –> 01:19:49.200
definition or solution to, you know,

1255
01:19:49.760 –> 01:19:52.980
to anything. Mhmm. But,

1256
01:19:59.280 –> 01:20:03.120
the the we have to everything is about

1257
01:20:03.120 –> 01:20:06.925
trying to find balance in the whole in the whole ecosystem and continually

1258
01:20:07.305 –> 01:20:11.085
to measure, like, the effectiveness of things that are working.

1259
01:20:11.385 –> 01:20:15.065
You know, Newsom, he said he’s yeah. No

1260
01:20:15.065 –> 01:20:18.120
one’s never done more for homelessness than him.

1261
01:20:18.520 –> 01:20:22.360
And, yeah, how let’s define what he’s done for it. Like, is

1262
01:20:22.360 –> 01:20:25.740
he defining what he’s done for it by the amount of money he spent?

1263
01:20:26.520 –> 01:20:29.660
Or are you defining it by the outcomes of

1264
01:20:30.040 –> 01:20:33.785
the money and how it’s been spent. I would look

1265
01:20:33.785 –> 01:20:37.305
at the outcomes, and say, the

1266
01:20:37.305 –> 01:20:40.905
outcomes, yeah, you’ve done a lot more than anyone else,

1267
01:20:40.905 –> 01:20:44.540
but the outcomes are negative. You know, you gotta reevaluate

1268
01:20:44.760 –> 01:20:46.540
what you’re doing and how and why.

1269
01:20:48.280 –> 01:20:52.040
But, one of my concerns with where

1270
01:20:52.040 –> 01:20:55.719
we are now in a society is everything’s an

1271
01:20:55.719 –> 01:20:59.505
external answer. Everything is like a pill or food

1272
01:20:59.565 –> 01:21:03.265
or, some sort of external

1273
01:21:03.485 –> 01:21:07.325
effect. And that if you bring in institutions that they’re just

1274
01:21:07.325 –> 01:21:10.700
gonna institutionalize all of, you

1275
01:21:10.700 –> 01:21:14.460
know, all of the poisons that are, actually

1276
01:21:14.620 –> 01:21:18.300
could potentially be exacerbating kind of the Mhmm. Mental

1277
01:21:18.300 –> 01:21:21.520
illness that that is out there. So how do you

1278
01:21:22.620 –> 01:21:26.364
I I always worry about institutions going too far

1279
01:21:26.425 –> 01:21:30.105
because they, you know, in the regulate regulated role that we live in right

1280
01:21:30.105 –> 01:21:33.565
now, but institutions just wanting to grow and continue to,

1281
01:21:33.945 –> 01:21:37.545
take on power if we are institute create institutions for mental

1282
01:21:37.545 –> 01:21:41.130
illness. Like, I wanna make sure that there are boundaries

1283
01:21:41.430 –> 01:21:44.570
and very strict and small boundaries

1284
01:21:45.270 –> 01:21:49.030
of what is, you know, meant institutionalized mental illness and

1285
01:21:49.030 –> 01:21:52.735
how we take care of those folks. The rest of it to me is

1286
01:21:52.735 –> 01:21:56.495
about working downstream and with families and

1287
01:21:56.495 –> 01:22:00.175
education and, a lot of the other

1288
01:22:00.175 –> 01:22:03.775
salute things that have been ignored that are

1289
01:22:03.775 –> 01:22:07.030
pre are prerequisites for accelerated

1290
01:22:07.330 –> 01:22:11.170
mental illness and self, medication. And that’s

1291
01:22:11.170 –> 01:22:14.930
where we get to with in Tender is the Night

1292
01:22:14.930 –> 01:22:18.310
Nicole Warren. Not Nicole Diver, Nicole Warren.

1293
01:22:19.555 –> 01:22:23.155
Nicole Warren’s father abused her and created an

1294
01:22:23.155 –> 01:22:26.855
environment where he was actually the one responsible

1295
01:22:27.075 –> 01:22:30.435
for her mental or or or well, no. No. I won’t say he was yes.

1296
01:22:30.435 –> 01:22:33.940
Yes. Actually, no. I would say responsible. Absolutely for sure. I would say his

1297
01:22:33.940 –> 01:22:37.680
his actions. No. Because you could be responsible. Right?

1298
01:22:38.220 –> 01:22:41.900
But not But not be right. But not accountable. Right. You can

1299
01:22:41.900 –> 01:22:45.120
also be responsible. Say. Are you right. Responsible,

1300
01:22:45.980 –> 01:22:49.625
but I’m the only one who’s accountable. Correct. That’s right.

1301
01:22:49.925 –> 01:22:53.385
That’s right. You could also be responsible

1302
01:22:53.685 –> 01:22:57.525
and not at fault. But this is a situation where he was

1303
01:22:57.525 –> 01:23:01.125
responsible. He avoided accountability because of his

1304
01:23:01.125 –> 01:23:04.890
wealth, and he was the one who was at fault, I

1305
01:23:04.890 –> 01:23:08.590
think, for the split inside

1306
01:23:08.650 –> 01:23:12.010
of her brain. Yeah. And he was

1307
01:23:12.010 –> 01:23:15.390
also responsible and at fault

1308
01:23:15.685 –> 01:23:19.445
for the damage he did to his older daughter in creating

1309
01:23:19.445 –> 01:23:22.885
an environment where she felt she had to protect her younger

1310
01:23:22.885 –> 01:23:26.725
sister, leveraging his money. There’s a whole scene, a

1311
01:23:26.725 –> 01:23:30.185
whole incident that happens where she’s we’re at the end of book

1312
01:23:30.890 –> 01:23:34.730
two, I think, where the where Warren is, is dying or

1313
01:23:34.730 –> 01:23:38.490
whatever. And, you know, Dick comes and sees him,

1314
01:23:38.490 –> 01:23:42.330
and he’s like, you know, he’s doing he’s in the hospital and, you

1315
01:23:42.330 –> 01:23:44.585
know, he’s talking about the regret or whatever, and,

1316
01:23:48.245 –> 01:23:51.925
doctor Diver, for lack of a better term, sort of fails that fails that

1317
01:23:51.925 –> 01:23:55.685
test, a little bit and is going to you know, and gets a letter

1318
01:23:55.685 –> 01:23:59.160
and then delivers it to Nicole. And, you know, she’s trying to make the decision

1319
01:23:59.160 –> 01:24:02.280
if she’s gonna go see him. And then, of course, because it’s a it’s a

1320
01:24:02.280 –> 01:24:05.980
weird not weird. It’s a it’s an inappropriate relationship,

1321
01:24:07.560 –> 01:24:11.255
already, because of the abuse. She, of course, runs to see

1322
01:24:11.255 –> 01:24:15.014
him, and he has gotten up out of his bed

1323
01:24:15.014 –> 01:24:18.695
and escaped or gone back to America. And then he just is like, he just

1324
01:24:18.695 –> 01:24:22.375
walks out of the story. He never is referred to ever again. And it weirdly

1325
01:24:22.375 –> 01:24:26.220
enough reminded me a lot of this book reminded me of the movie Magnolia, Magnolia,

1326
01:24:26.600 –> 01:24:30.280
in the nineteen nineties directed by Paul Thomas Anderson. And, the

1327
01:24:30.280 –> 01:24:33.800
old guy played by Jason Robards, who is, Tom

1328
01:24:33.800 –> 01:24:37.480
Cruise’s father, right, who’s,

1329
01:24:37.720 –> 01:24:41.565
who’s dying in the bed the whole movie, you know, muttering about regret.

1330
01:24:42.345 –> 01:24:45.625
And it’s just it put that thing in my brain because I’m a I’m a,

1331
01:24:45.625 –> 01:24:49.465
you know, cinema cinema guy as well. So put that thing in my

1332
01:24:49.465 –> 01:24:53.270
head, and I’m, you know, I’m hearing the Amy Mann song under underneath

1333
01:24:53.270 –> 01:24:57.110
it and, you know, having the whole having the whole experience, right, while

1334
01:24:57.110 –> 01:24:59.050
I’m reading this. And

1335
01:25:01.190 –> 01:25:04.810
that character in Magnolia didn’t get

1336
01:25:06.150 –> 01:25:09.764
forgiveness. Well, no. The son had to forgive him because the son had been

1337
01:25:09.764 –> 01:25:13.125
abused by the father. And that, of course, turned him into this

1338
01:25:13.125 –> 01:25:16.724
person who wanted to seduce and destroy all women.

1339
01:25:16.724 –> 01:25:20.565
Okay. And he blamed his mother for leaving and dah dah dah dah.

1340
01:25:20.565 –> 01:25:23.780
Okay. The the the same

1341
01:25:24.000 –> 01:25:27.599
dynamic happened in Tender is the Night. Just you just flip the you just flip

1342
01:25:27.599 –> 01:25:31.440
the genders. Right? And you can see this most notably

1343
01:25:31.440 –> 01:25:34.739
in how Nicole ends her marriage to,

1344
01:25:36.639 –> 01:25:40.065
to, to Dick through intentionally,

1345
01:25:40.284 –> 01:25:43.724
you know, pursuing an extramarital affair, and

1346
01:25:43.724 –> 01:25:47.324
then sort of in a very post

1347
01:25:47.324 –> 01:25:50.864
Victorian, pre World War two kind of way,

1348
01:25:51.180 –> 01:25:54.620
allowing two men to fight over her. And Dick just

1349
01:25:54.620 –> 01:25:58.380
doesn’t he’s like, I’m not number one, you’re a boxer, so that seems to be

1350
01:25:58.380 –> 01:26:02.060
a bad idea. And this is back in the day when every man could handle

1351
01:26:02.060 –> 01:26:05.260
himself. And he could handle himself. Like, he wanna go be I mean, he’ll go

1352
01:26:05.260 –> 01:26:08.675
be a problem. But, like, how much do I wanna get messed up over this

1353
01:26:08.675 –> 01:26:11.655
woman who’s trying to manipulate me into

1354
01:26:12.915 –> 01:26:16.275
some shenanigans or nonsense that I don’t want you to be manipulated into?

1355
01:26:16.275 –> 01:26:19.495
Right? And so the whole thing just sort of collapses in on itself.

1356
01:26:19.980 –> 01:26:23.820
And that leads me to turning the corner here because we’ve gotta

1357
01:26:23.820 –> 01:26:27.580
wrap up. And I wanna I wanna thank Libby for coming on the podcast

1358
01:26:27.580 –> 01:26:30.780
today. This is this is one of the I thought it was gonna be easy,

1359
01:26:30.780 –> 01:26:34.054
but this is one of the more deceptively tough books that we’ve covered on the,

1360
01:26:34.455 –> 01:26:38.054
on the show. And we’ve talked a lot about a lot of things today. We’ve

1361
01:26:38.054 –> 01:26:41.815
talked about, you know, the obsequiousness of wealth. We’ve talked about mental illness. We’ve talked

1362
01:26:41.815 –> 01:26:45.510
about addiction. We’ve talked about sort of the nature of

1363
01:26:45.510 –> 01:26:48.790
where we are at currently a hundred years later and how nothing much has really

1364
01:26:48.790 –> 01:26:51.610
changed. It’s just our technology has gotten better for us sinning.

1365
01:26:53.270 –> 01:26:56.730
And we’ve also talked about the nature of, family secrets

1366
01:26:57.285 –> 01:27:00.985
and how do you deal with mental mental illness in a family

1367
01:27:01.205 –> 01:27:04.985
when it endangers people. Okay. Lot of different areas we’ve covered.

1368
01:27:07.845 –> 01:27:11.305
I’ll ask the penultimate question, which is the question we always ask in this podcast.

1369
01:27:11.670 –> 01:27:15.430
What can leaders take from Tender is the Night? If I’m a

1370
01:27:15.430 –> 01:27:18.790
leader and I’m a hardcore, like, hey. I’m gonna get

1371
01:27:18.790 –> 01:27:21.930
psychological insights from, like, Adam Grant.

1372
01:27:22.950 –> 01:27:26.505
And I’m not I’ve mentioned him, like, four times today already, and I don’t know

1373
01:27:26.505 –> 01:27:30.265
why he’s living in my head rent free. I have no idea why. But, anyway,

1374
01:27:30.265 –> 01:27:34.025
I’m gonna get insights from that person or from Daniel Pink. Right?

1375
01:27:34.025 –> 01:27:37.380
And that’s gonna be a better use of my time than reading this book. Why

1376
01:27:37.380 –> 01:27:41.000
isn’t reading this book better than reading something by Amy Edmondson

1377
01:27:41.460 –> 01:27:45.300
or Daniel Pink or, therefore, mentioned

1378
01:27:45.300 –> 01:27:49.140
mister Grant or any other leadership book writer you could read?

1379
01:27:49.140 –> 01:27:51.460
What are you gonna get out of this that you can apply,

1380
01:27:52.785 –> 01:27:55.844
to yourself probably first and then your team?

1381
01:27:57.905 –> 01:27:58.405
Allegory.

1382
01:28:03.665 –> 01:28:06.705
Yes. This is why we’re gonna take a break from Shakespeare this year. This is

1383
01:28:06.705 –> 01:28:09.770
why. Yes. No. Go ahead. Keep going with that.

1384
01:28:10.949 –> 01:28:14.630
Yeah. Don’t get me wrong. I love Daniel Pink. Adam

1385
01:28:14.630 –> 01:28:18.469
Grant, not so much. I think he’s overly simplistic and not yeah. I think he

1386
01:28:18.469 –> 01:28:20.409
he thinks he’s smarter than he is.

1387
01:28:21.989 –> 01:28:25.725
But, yeah, you could have just asked Libby ninety percent of

1388
01:28:25.725 –> 01:28:29.485
the that he says. Just ask Libby. Just just

1389
01:28:29.485 –> 01:28:33.165
ask Libby. But Daniel Pink

1390
01:28:33.165 –> 01:28:36.690
gets into, more of, the

1391
01:28:36.690 –> 01:28:40.450
NLP type of stuff even though he doesn’t discuss he doesn’t call it

1392
01:28:40.450 –> 01:28:44.150
that specifically. Yep. But he’s

1393
01:28:44.370 –> 01:28:47.970
none of them get into the reality of the

1394
01:28:47.970 –> 01:28:51.570
human experience and the challenges of dealing

1395
01:28:51.570 –> 01:28:55.225
with different types of individuals

1396
01:28:55.365 –> 01:28:58.025
and personalities, and you need to be adaptive

1397
01:28:58.725 –> 01:29:02.245
Mhmm. To individuals, and their

1398
01:29:02.245 –> 01:29:05.625
different needs while at the same time not enabling

1399
01:29:06.165 –> 01:29:09.800
and creating boundaries and when necessary removing

1400
01:29:09.800 –> 01:29:13.340
them from situations where they’re impacting,

1401
01:29:13.560 –> 01:29:16.940
you know, others. One of my favorite and,

1402
01:29:17.880 –> 01:29:21.420
most true statements is that you never fired someone fast enough.

1403
01:29:23.494 –> 01:29:26.315
You can never fast them, fire them fast enough.

1404
01:29:27.255 –> 01:29:30.614
You know, to me, leaders there is never a leader who said I didn’t fire

1405
01:29:30.614 –> 01:29:33.915
them fast enough. Like, they always say, I wish I’d done it sooner.

1406
01:29:34.375 –> 01:29:37.974
You need to take toxicity out of the workplace, and toxicity is about personalities that

1407
01:29:37.974 –> 01:29:41.790
are that are creating havoc on the

1408
01:29:41.790 –> 01:29:44.510
teams. How do we do that when we are in a space right now in

1409
01:29:44.510 –> 01:29:47.949
our world where and I wrote this wrote this word down because I see it

1410
01:29:47.949 –> 01:29:50.850
a lot where we are

1411
01:29:54.845 –> 01:29:58.605
almost commanded like a came down on a tablet from

1412
01:29:58.605 –> 01:30:02.445
Mount Sinai. Like, Moses delivered it

1413
01:30:02.445 –> 01:30:06.285
to us. You know? Well, you know, this is this is the way it’s

1414
01:30:06.285 –> 01:30:09.800
framed. Right? We are commanded to our firm.

1415
01:30:11.460 –> 01:30:15.060
Right. How do we well, but but this is this is the point of all

1416
01:30:15.060 –> 01:30:18.740
the DEI programs, and this is the point of affinity groups, and this is the

1417
01:30:18.740 –> 01:30:22.534
point of this is the point of all of it. Like, how do we

1418
01:30:22.675 –> 01:30:26.195
deal with that dynamic? Yeah. When you

1419
01:30:26.195 –> 01:30:29.954
recognize really what it is, it’s not good faith. The affirmations are not about

1420
01:30:29.954 –> 01:30:33.554
good faith. The affirmations are about, trying to

1421
01:30:33.554 –> 01:30:36.790
control others. And they typically

1422
01:30:37.330 –> 01:30:41.030
yeah. Or typically especially in the workplace,

1423
01:30:41.970 –> 01:30:45.270
you know, I see them mostly employed

1424
01:30:45.810 –> 01:30:49.490
by people who are afraid of doing the real work

1425
01:30:49.490 –> 01:30:53.185
and work that is designed to deliver results. So they focus

1426
01:30:53.185 –> 01:30:56.885
on the small stuff and not the big stuff.

1427
01:30:57.185 –> 01:31:01.025
Mhmm. I want true diversity in the workforce,

1428
01:31:01.025 –> 01:31:04.610
but it doesn’t need to be talked about all the time. It’s just about how

1429
01:31:04.610 –> 01:31:08.370
you show up. And the way that you address it

1430
01:31:08.370 –> 01:31:12.050
is like the guys at Coinbase did. It’s like, yeah, we’re you

1431
01:31:12.050 –> 01:31:15.890
know, that stuff for you. Like, I’m all about you living your

1432
01:31:15.890 –> 01:31:19.344
true your truest life. Yeah. We’re a business. We’re about

1433
01:31:19.344 –> 01:31:21.925
delivering results that matter to our customers,

1434
01:31:23.025 –> 01:31:26.705
and respecting all individuals. And we’re focusing on delivering a

1435
01:31:26.705 –> 01:31:30.240
great customer experience at a economically viable price.

1436
01:31:30.240 –> 01:31:34.080
And, you know, we want you know, the way that I’m gonna my my

1437
01:31:34.080 –> 01:31:37.540
promise to you is that as you deliver, I’m gonna create opportunities

1438
01:31:38.000 –> 01:31:41.300
for you to thrive in the workplace based on the,

1439
01:31:42.240 –> 01:31:46.080
based on the results that matter in the workplace. Yeah.

1440
01:31:46.080 –> 01:31:49.594
So you just gotta be strong. It they’re basically spoiled children

1441
01:31:49.974 –> 01:31:53.655
trying to be, you know, trying to dictate their, you know,

1442
01:31:53.655 –> 01:31:56.955
dictate their to their parents, how their parents should react.

1443
01:31:58.295 –> 01:32:01.494
Well, then it’s another example, and I’ve been working on this idea through our shorts

1444
01:32:01.494 –> 01:32:05.240
episodes. It’s yet another example of many of,

1445
01:32:06.180 –> 01:32:10.020
a thesis I’m working through, which is we ask the

1446
01:32:10.020 –> 01:32:13.700
workplace to take on too much. Yeah. We put too much

1447
01:32:13.700 –> 01:32:17.345
weight on the workplace. And so, do

1448
01:32:17.345 –> 01:32:21.105
I want people who are genuinely going through a

1449
01:32:21.105 –> 01:32:24.945
mental health crisis to be supported to be supported

1450
01:32:24.945 –> 01:32:28.785
by their workplace in their workplace telling them to go off and get help because

1451
01:32:28.785 –> 01:32:32.440
you can’t get help here? Absolutely. That’s the

1452
01:32:32.440 –> 01:32:35.800
correct move. Go off and get help because you can’t get help here. We’re not

1453
01:32:35.800 –> 01:32:39.480
qualified to do that. Heck, even if it’s even the people

1454
01:32:39.480 –> 01:32:43.159
running a mental hospital should probably go take them if you can hey. Hang on.

1455
01:32:43.159 –> 01:32:46.545
If you mess up, go go go to right? Don’t ask the mental hospital where

1456
01:32:46.545 –> 01:32:50.385
you’re working to be the place where you get right. Okay. So

1457
01:32:50.385 –> 01:32:54.145
this is that’s the extreme example. Right? I absolutely am in favor of

1458
01:32:54.145 –> 01:32:56.645
that. I am not in favor of

1459
01:32:58.305 –> 01:33:01.590
the, to your point,

1460
01:33:03.329 –> 01:33:06.929
the whole self movement that has that has sort of

1461
01:33:06.929 –> 01:33:10.309
taken taken hold of our culture, where the leader

1462
01:33:10.449 –> 01:33:14.130
in the environment, whether that person calls the title of manager or

1463
01:33:14.130 –> 01:33:17.324
supervisor, is asked to affirm the whole person,

1464
01:33:17.864 –> 01:33:21.625
that’s too much weight to put on that leader. And quite frankly, it’s too much

1465
01:33:21.625 –> 01:33:25.065
weight to put on that workplace because to my point earlier about

1466
01:33:25.065 –> 01:33:27.804
families and your point earlier about families,

1467
01:33:28.460 –> 01:33:32.140
family is where that weight should go. And yet

1468
01:33:32.140 –> 01:33:35.500
because we have moved over the last twenty years more and more towards

1469
01:33:35.500 –> 01:33:39.179
this atomization of family, we’re

1470
01:33:39.179 –> 01:33:41.500
gonna have to struggle to get back to that. I’m write I’m writing a whole

1471
01:33:41.500 –> 01:33:44.485
thesis on this. I might publish it on my substack that no one goes to

1472
01:33:44.485 –> 01:33:48.245
anymore, and, and see if anybody will read it. But I’ve got

1473
01:33:48.245 –> 01:33:50.725
some I’ve got some ideas. I’ve got some thoughts on this because I think we’re

1474
01:33:50.725 –> 01:33:54.485
putting too much weight on the workplace. You we we put way too much,

1475
01:33:54.805 –> 01:33:58.590
weight on schools. That’s why. And now we’re

1476
01:33:58.590 –> 01:34:02.430
doing it on the workplace. And, you know, we need to

1477
01:34:02.670 –> 01:34:06.510
you know, communities are there to support you for your extracurriculars and

1478
01:34:06.510 –> 01:34:10.350
the things outside of the workplace. The workplace, yeah, we want you to feel welcomed.

1479
01:34:10.350 –> 01:34:13.995
We want you to feel like you’re, the conditions are there for you to

1480
01:34:13.995 –> 01:34:17.355
thrive, but there are gonna be boundaries for that. And

1481
01:34:17.515 –> 01:34:20.175
Yeah. And, and there need to be.

1482
01:34:21.115 –> 01:34:24.750
Yeah. And Yeah. Well, otherwise, we can’t get the work done and then

1483
01:34:25.630 –> 01:34:28.750
It I I think, yeah, part of this is a product of there being too

1484
01:34:28.750 –> 01:34:32.590
much money being thrown at companies right now, and there’s no accountability about

1485
01:34:32.590 –> 01:34:36.430
results in the workplace any right now, because

1486
01:34:36.430 –> 01:34:39.890
there’s just so much money chasing a lot of business ideas.

1487
01:34:41.105 –> 01:34:44.785
You know, accountability like, we’re not in a hard time right

1488
01:34:44.785 –> 01:34:48.545
now. So people can waste precious time

1489
01:34:48.545 –> 01:34:52.305
and resources on, things that don’t create

1490
01:34:52.305 –> 01:34:55.970
value for the workplace, in place of the things that

1491
01:34:55.970 –> 01:34:59.489
do create value for the workplace. Well, and one of and one of the

1492
01:34:59.650 –> 01:35:03.410
I’m not insensitive to people’s needs, but those are not things you bring

1493
01:35:03.410 –> 01:35:06.945
into the workplace. Like, there’s a time and place for all of that.

1494
01:35:07.185 –> 01:35:10.304
You know? And it’s not We should we should have a species, I think, of

1495
01:35:10.304 –> 01:35:13.505
hard headed empathy. So our empathy should not be

1496
01:35:14.145 –> 01:35:17.125
Yeah. Well, our empathy should not be weaponized against us,

1497
01:35:18.704 –> 01:35:22.079
to to achieve a particular outcome as a form of manipulation.

1498
01:35:22.619 –> 01:35:26.460
The Marxism. Right? And that’s what it is.

1499
01:35:26.460 –> 01:35:30.000
It’s about yeah. That’s what again, politics is all about weaponizing

1500
01:35:30.139 –> 01:35:33.599
empathy as they cry you know, as they, you know, gain power

1501
01:35:34.219 –> 01:35:37.955
and then, you know, changing the rules, you

1502
01:35:37.955 –> 01:35:41.415
know, again, you know, you know, to create more

1503
01:35:41.635 –> 01:35:43.955
places of power, but it’s all about empathy

1504
01:35:45.635 –> 01:35:49.415
Right. To gain power and control. Look at David Hogg.

1505
01:35:49.475 –> 01:35:49.860
Like

1506
01:35:53.619 –> 01:35:56.119
And with that right now?

1507
01:35:58.260 –> 01:36:02.040
Because he realizes that you know? I

1508
01:36:03.175 –> 01:36:06.135
I will not say because this is another three hours. I will not say anything

1509
01:36:06.135 –> 01:36:08.795
about that beyond this. I was surprised

1510
01:36:10.135 –> 01:36:13.435
that that he was the person

1511
01:36:13.655 –> 01:36:17.310
that the DNC selected. I I will just say I was shocked because

1512
01:36:17.310 –> 01:36:21.150
it doesn’t on the surface, it doesn’t click any

1513
01:36:21.230 –> 01:36:25.070
it doesn’t check any of the boxes that we have been told the

1514
01:36:25.070 –> 01:36:28.850
Democratic party checks for the last at least fifteen years,

1515
01:36:29.310 –> 01:36:33.094
we’ve been told. So I don’t know what shenanigans are going on

1516
01:36:33.094 –> 01:36:36.934
underneath that, and we don’t have time to explore those right

1517
01:36:36.934 –> 01:36:40.454
now. Maybe we’ll do that on the next episode of the podcast with the

1518
01:36:40.695 –> 01:36:44.534
just a male parent in the workplace again and not the children running

1519
01:36:44.534 –> 01:36:48.310
the Yep. Not the children running the institutions. Running institutions.

1520
01:36:48.449 –> 01:36:52.130
Yeah. Well, I think that’s a good place to stop. So I

1521
01:36:52.130 –> 01:36:55.810
wanna thank Libby Unger for coming on Leadership Lessons from the Great

1522
01:36:55.810 –> 01:36:59.265
Books podcast today, talking about

1523
01:36:59.265 –> 01:37:02.945
Tender is the Night with us by F. Scott Fitzgerald. I would encourage you to

1524
01:37:02.945 –> 01:37:06.325
go out, pick up a copy of that book. And with that, well,

1525
01:37:07.585 –> 01:37:08.405
we’re out.