Leadership Lessons From The Great Books – (Bonus) – A Conversation with Calen Bullard

1
00:00:26,425 –> 00:00:38,039
Hello.

2
00:00:38,039 –> 00:00:41,879
My name is Jesan Sorrells, and this is the Leadership Lessons from the Great

3
00:00:41,879 –> 00:00:44,515
Books podcast. Bonus.

4
00:00:45,934 –> 00:00:49,315
There’s no book reading usually on these

5
00:00:49,375 –> 00:00:52,989
bonus episodes. These typically tend to

6
00:00:52,989 –> 00:00:56,770
be interviews, rants, raves, insights, and other gentle

7
00:00:56,829 –> 00:01:00,614
and sometimes more confrontational audio musings and, of

8
00:01:00,614 –> 00:01:03,835
course, conversations with interesting people about

9
00:01:03,987 –> 00:01:07,415
leadership. Because listening to me add an

10
00:01:07,415 –> 00:01:10,930
interesting guest talk about leadership for at least a couple of

11
00:01:10,930 –> 00:01:14,690
hours fourth maybe as little as an hour and a half is still better

12
00:01:14,690 –> 00:01:17,750
than reading and trying to understand yet another

13
00:01:18,130 –> 00:01:21,935
business book. Especially that business book

14
00:01:21,935 –> 00:01:25,535
written by a large language algorithm that calls itself

15
00:01:25,535 –> 00:01:27,795
ai that thinks it’s smarter than you.

16
00:01:30,810 –> 00:01:34,649
That’s going to be a real problem coming up. We’ll talk more about that on

17
00:01:34,649 –> 00:01:38,495
the podcast, but not today. Our

18
00:01:38,495 –> 00:01:41,955
guests today, has an extensive background,

19
00:01:42,255 –> 00:01:46,095
only some of which I will read and then we will get into at

20
00:01:46,095 –> 00:01:49,860
a deeper level. As we continue fourth

21
00:01:49,860 –> 00:01:53,560
as we draw out as we have our conversation, today.

22
00:01:54,259 –> 00:01:57,615
So he enlisted into the United States army in 1998,

23
00:01:58,395 –> 00:02:01,915
which makes him a member of the tail end of Generation X. Like myself, I

24
00:02:01,915 –> 00:02:05,630
graduated high school in 1997, Jesan he has served

25
00:02:05,630 –> 00:02:09,389
with a plethora of companies, task forces, and

26
00:02:09,389 –> 00:02:12,990
teams across the length and breadth of the United States

27
00:02:12,990 –> 00:02:16,525
Army, including brigade s 9 non commissioned officer in

28
00:02:16,525 –> 00:02:20,205
headquarters and headquarters company, 1st Brigade Combat Team,

29
00:02:20,205 –> 00:02:24,040
5104th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division,

30
00:02:24,040 –> 00:02:27,260
instructor for civil affairs qualifications course and operations

31
00:02:27,400 –> 00:02:31,245
in the OIC fourth Bravo Company, 3rd

32
00:02:31,245 –> 00:02:34,765
battalion, 1st Special Warfare Training Group a, and

33
00:02:34,765 –> 00:02:38,465
battalion schools noncommissioned officer and battalion leadership development instructor

34
00:02:38,605 –> 00:02:42,280
in headquarters and headquarters company, 51st Signal

35
00:02:42,280 –> 00:02:46,060
Battalion A, 35th Signal Brigade A, Fort Bragg,

36
00:02:46,520 –> 00:02:50,145
North Carolina. And if you think I just said a mouthful there,

37
00:02:50,145 –> 00:02:53,365
you’re correct. His deployment experience

38
00:02:53,585 –> 00:02:57,345
includes 2 deployments to Iraq in support of Operation Iraqi

39
00:02:57,345 –> 00:03:01,140
Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom with Bravo

40
00:03:01,140 –> 00:03:04,820
Company, 51st Signal Battalion A, 35th Signal

41
00:03:04,820 –> 00:03:08,535
Brigade A, as well as 3 deployments in the southern Philippines,

42
00:03:08,834 –> 00:03:12,135
one deployment to Afghanistan and 2 deployments to Hawaii.

43
00:03:13,330 –> 00:03:16,850
And out of all those places, you could probably guess which one I’ve

44
00:03:16,850 –> 00:03:20,610
actually been Tom, and it wasn’t the Philippines or

45
00:03:20,610 –> 00:03:23,905
Afghanistan. He is a graduate

46
00:03:24,444 –> 00:03:28,285
of Warrior Leaders Fourth, Advanced Leaders Course with honors, and Senior

47
00:03:28,285 –> 00:03:31,819
Leaders Course with honors. Also holds a certificate in business administration

48
00:03:32,200 –> 00:03:35,880
and operations leadership, a certificate in leadership and management, as well as

49
00:03:35,880 –> 00:03:39,020
an associate’s in general education, all fourth Fayetteville

50
00:03:39,625 –> 00:03:43,224
Technical Community College. He is a graduate of the University of Charleston,

51
00:03:43,224 –> 00:03:47,004
West Virginia, and holds a bachelor of science in organizational

52
00:03:47,545 –> 00:03:51,129
leadership. His awards and decorations are manifold,

53
00:03:52,069 –> 00:03:55,430
including the Bronze Star Medal and the Philippine Bronze Cross

54
00:03:55,430 –> 00:03:58,875
Medal. In addition to all of that, my guest today is

55
00:03:58,875 –> 00:04:02,715
married to the former Candace Williams Daley and has 2 sons, Ethan and

56
00:04:02,715 –> 00:04:05,935
Thomas, and 2 daughters, Kennedy and Catherine.

57
00:04:06,700 –> 00:04:10,460
Just like myself, he’s got 4 kids. I would presume, that

58
00:04:10,460 –> 00:04:13,980
they are all well, they’re all of the age where he’s still in

59
00:04:13,980 –> 00:04:17,644
it. He’s still in the game and the game is

60
00:04:17,644 –> 00:04:21,425
DMX used to say the game is deep and the pain is brief

61
00:04:23,620 –> 00:04:27,000
and it happens every day. And so

62
00:04:27,460 –> 00:04:31,300
I would like to welcome to the podcast, Kalen Buller. How you

63
00:04:31,300 –> 00:04:34,805
doing, Kalen? Doing fairly well. Thank you. Yeah.

64
00:04:34,805 –> 00:04:38,645
Alright. So what’s it like to have your entire resume read to you? What’s that

65
00:04:38,645 –> 00:04:39,145
like?

66
00:04:42,349 –> 00:04:45,870
I mean, it’s unfamiliar, I

67
00:04:45,870 –> 00:04:49,490
guess. I mean, most of the time, you’re you’re reading it, and I’m I’m

68
00:04:49,789 –> 00:04:53,285
remembering stuff. Well, you’re reading it off, and it’s just all

69
00:04:53,665 –> 00:04:57,185
flooding back. So it’s Right. It’s, you

70
00:04:57,185 –> 00:05:00,820
know, a little weird, I guess. Little weird.

71
00:05:01,040 –> 00:05:04,720
Little weird. But that’s weird. I mean, when you when you start rattling it

72
00:05:04,720 –> 00:05:08,180
off. So and you go through it when you say 51st signal battalion

73
00:05:09,315 –> 00:05:12,755
a. Every single one of those a’s, that’s a that’s an airborne unit. So it’s

74
00:05:12,755 –> 00:05:16,435
51st Single Battalion Airborne, 82nd Airborne Division,

75
00:05:16,435 –> 00:05:19,870
50 4th Parachute Infantry Regiment. So, I mean, it all reads right,

76
00:05:19,870 –> 00:05:22,930
but it’s either special operations or it’s airborne,

77
00:05:24,030 –> 00:05:27,694
and you’ll see those at the end of a variety of units all

78
00:05:27,694 –> 00:05:31,074
across. I mean, you got Mhmm. Anything from SF groups to,

79
00:05:31,615 –> 00:05:35,189
you know, tab units. It just depends on

80
00:05:35,349 –> 00:05:38,330
it’s military. Military lingo is tough to follow.

81
00:05:38,870 –> 00:05:42,585
Sometimes Tom is for those of us in the, in the civilian

82
00:05:42,585 –> 00:05:46,285
world. And, you know, on this podcast, we’ve interviewed

83
00:05:46,505 –> 00:05:50,180
several folks, either around books, and had conversations with

84
00:05:50,180 –> 00:05:53,940
them around their favorite books fourth just straight interviews with folks

85
00:05:53,940 –> 00:05:57,480
that, do have a a a strong military

86
00:05:57,540 –> 00:06:01,365
background because, quite frankly, and

87
00:06:01,365 –> 00:06:04,085
I always kind of have to say this on the podcast because there’s always new

88
00:06:04,085 –> 00:06:07,205
listeners and people who just don’t they just don’t have an awareness of where we

89
00:06:07,205 –> 00:06:10,910
are at or what we’re doing in the world. For the last 25 years, we’ve

90
00:06:10,910 –> 00:06:14,590
been war making, all across the globe, for good

91
00:06:14,590 –> 00:06:17,890
or ill, and we don’t get into the politics of that here.

92
00:06:18,794 –> 00:06:22,474
I always say though, and actually I said this to somebody else fourth private

93
00:06:22,474 –> 00:06:26,310
conversation yesterday. I always say that there’s

94
00:06:26,370 –> 00:06:29,970
only things you can learn in a certain kind of wailing Jesan you can learn

95
00:06:29,970 –> 00:06:32,835
in a certain kind of way for having a bullet fly past your ear and

96
00:06:32,835 –> 00:06:36,595
then having to deliver a bullet podcast the ear of somebody else, and you cannot

97
00:06:36,595 –> 00:06:40,375
learn them in any other kind of way, including leadership

98
00:06:40,435 –> 00:06:43,970
lessons. And so I value, people who come from that

99
00:06:43,970 –> 00:06:47,190
background, and I value their experiences. And I like to bring them to my listeners

100
00:06:47,490 –> 00:06:51,165
and talk about them on the podcast, but also to sort of

101
00:06:51,165 –> 00:06:54,305
figure out how we can synthesize all of those lessons together,

102
00:06:54,685 –> 00:06:58,110
into not only into the civilian world, but how we can merge those 2 spheres

103
00:06:58,189 –> 00:07:00,449
together. And so I hope to be able to do some of that today.

104
00:07:01,870 –> 00:07:05,409
So it’s it’s always a learning process. Exactly.

105
00:07:05,825 –> 00:07:09,365
Always a learning process. And when you’re dealing with leadership,

106
00:07:09,505 –> 00:07:12,805
when you’re dealing with people, it’s a constant

107
00:07:12,945 –> 00:07:16,569
adapting and and learning because that’s what that’s what

108
00:07:16,569 –> 00:07:20,330
adapting is, is learning. So Exactly. Exactly. Well and

109
00:07:20,330 –> 00:07:23,955
we are in a time of adaptation. One of the ideas that

110
00:07:23,955 –> 00:07:27,794
I’ve been really focused on this last year on the podcast has been

111
00:07:27,794 –> 00:07:31,475
the idea that and it is a challenging idea, and I just want you

112
00:07:31,475 –> 00:07:34,690
to before I ask you the first question because I’ve really asked your question Jesan,

113
00:07:34,790 –> 00:07:38,470
but, as as we kind of go through the podcast, I want you to sort

114
00:07:38,470 –> 00:07:42,305
of roll this idea over in your head. But I think historically

115
00:07:42,764 –> 00:07:46,365
we’re at the end of a chaotic period. And I know it seems weird because

116
00:07:46,365 –> 00:07:50,070
everybody looks out and all they see is chaos, But I think this is

117
00:07:50,070 –> 00:07:53,750
the last dregs of the old chaos, kind of like a

118
00:07:53,750 –> 00:07:57,430
cornered rat. You know? It’s gonna fight all the way to the end, but

119
00:07:57,430 –> 00:08:00,935
then it’s when it’s done, it’s done. And I think we’re getting to the end

120
00:08:00,935 –> 00:08:04,615
of that in what I call the 4th turning. And on the other

121
00:08:04,615 –> 00:08:08,440
side of that will be a spring, a springtime of awakening,

122
00:08:09,460 –> 00:08:13,220
and a springtime of advancement. And I think that that’s gonna be a great

123
00:08:13,220 –> 00:08:16,425
thing for America. And so I like bringing on people who are coming out of,

124
00:08:16,425 –> 00:08:20,104
as I mentioned in the opening, Generation X, who I believe

125
00:08:20,104 –> 00:08:23,724
will be those future leaders in this in this upcoming

126
00:08:23,865 –> 00:08:27,280
spring. And, I think their insights are going to be valuable

127
00:08:27,740 –> 00:08:31,420
for the 2 younger generations we have floating around the world right now, the millennials

128
00:08:31,420 –> 00:08:34,885
and Gen Zers, who have had significantly

129
00:08:35,025 –> 00:08:38,325
different life experiences than the ones that we had. So,

130
00:08:38,785 –> 00:08:41,745
I don’t know if you agree with that thesis or if you wanna challenge that,

131
00:08:41,745 –> 00:08:44,440
but I want to let you float it around in your head

132
00:08:45,620 –> 00:08:49,320
as I ask you this first question. So for our listeners,

133
00:08:49,860 –> 00:08:53,605
what is it that you do exactly? Like,

134
00:08:53,605 –> 00:08:57,205
professionally? Professionally, personally, wherever you wanna

135
00:08:57,205 –> 00:08:59,945
start. No. Professionally,

136
00:09:01,020 –> 00:09:03,360
I’m a retired retired soldier,

137
00:09:05,180 –> 00:09:09,020
and I now essentially take care of veterans the

138
00:09:09,020 –> 00:09:11,545
same way I took care of soldiers when I was in the military. You know,

139
00:09:11,545 –> 00:09:15,325
I teach, coach, and mentor, veterans and,

140
00:09:15,785 –> 00:09:19,329
service members and their families on benefits,

141
00:09:21,230 –> 00:09:24,750
be it health care Tom education to you name

142
00:09:24,750 –> 00:09:28,524
it. They need it. I’ll connect them to it. Mhmm. So

143
00:09:28,524 –> 00:09:32,144
my official title is, veteran peer services

144
00:09:32,285 –> 00:09:35,665
coordinator certified by the Texas Veterans Commission.

145
00:09:36,490 –> 00:09:40,250
That is a position that is falls under the

146
00:09:40,250 –> 00:09:43,930
veterans mental health department whose mission is

147
00:09:43,930 –> 00:09:47,675
to reduce veteran suicide. That’s essentially what we

148
00:09:47,675 –> 00:09:50,575
are in the business of doing is mitigating crisis,

149
00:09:52,075 –> 00:09:55,890
that veteran service members and their families are experiencing as

150
00:09:55,890 –> 00:09:59,330
quickly in real time as we possibly can so that we

151
00:09:59,330 –> 00:10:03,170
can combat that, that sue veteran

152
00:10:03,170 –> 00:10:06,265
suicide number that’s consistently

153
00:10:07,125 –> 00:10:10,885
on the up and down, you know, depending on time of year, depending

154
00:10:10,885 –> 00:10:14,570
on politics, economics, a

155
00:10:14,570 –> 00:10:17,870
variety of things cause that that that stuff Tom happen. So,

156
00:10:18,490 –> 00:10:22,089
what I essentially do is teach, coach, and mentor. I’m just doing it for veterans

157
00:10:22,089 –> 00:10:25,455
instead of instead of soldiers now. Mhmm.

158
00:10:25,595 –> 00:10:28,955
Mhmm. So let’s go

159
00:10:28,955 –> 00:10:32,519
into the background of that because that’s a that’s a tough

160
00:10:32,519 –> 00:10:36,279
area to talk about out loud. When I was working in

161
00:10:36,279 –> 00:10:39,660
higher education, I worked with a lot of students,

162
00:10:40,704 –> 00:10:44,545
living in high rise apartment buildings. I did that fourth, well,

163
00:10:44,545 –> 00:10:48,270
close to a decade. And when you do that, a

164
00:10:48,270 –> 00:10:51,470
percentage of those students is going to engage in self harm and is going to

165
00:10:51,470 –> 00:10:55,089
engage in suicidal ideation. It just comes with the, with the, with the territory.

166
00:10:55,381 –> 00:10:57,635
Writers? And so I’ve had those,

167
00:10:59,215 –> 00:11:02,735
conversations and I’m not minimizing them. I’ve had those conversations with people

168
00:11:02,735 –> 00:11:06,440
who are on the edge or on the brink or ready to go over,

169
00:11:06,440 –> 00:11:09,960
or even in some cases tried to go over and maybe it

170
00:11:09,960 –> 00:11:10,860
didn’t succeed.

171
00:11:13,834 –> 00:11:17,435
So from their perspective, not from the perspective of others.

172
00:11:17,435 –> 00:11:21,115
Right. And so I’ve had those conversations that have been in

173
00:11:21,115 –> 00:11:24,460
that space, but not nearly to the depth that you’ve been in that space. So

174
00:11:24,460 –> 00:11:28,220
my follow-up question there to that is how did you wind up

175
00:11:28,220 –> 00:11:31,855
in this space? Sort of walk us through how you wound up in that

176
00:11:31,855 –> 00:11:34,735
space starting in 1998? Because I’m sure you didn’t come into the US Army in

177
00:11:34,735 –> 00:11:38,095
19 90 and going, hey, I’m gonna ultimately work with veterans in their own suicide.

178
00:11:38,095 –> 00:11:41,800
That’s gonna be where I’m gonna end up. No. That was that was

179
00:11:41,800 –> 00:11:43,900
far from it. So

180
00:11:45,400 –> 00:11:49,155
I I’d like to say everything goes back to childhood. Right? I mean,

181
00:11:49,155 –> 00:11:52,855
I was raised drinking out the garden hose and riding my bike,

182
00:11:52,995 –> 00:11:56,750
you know, all across town, going to Blockbuster, and renting

183
00:11:56,750 –> 00:12:00,110
video games to bring back home to play for the weekend Tom drop off on,

184
00:12:00,110 –> 00:12:03,514
you know, Sunday night, but let’s say you don’t get a late fee. You know,

185
00:12:03,514 –> 00:12:06,574
that that that kind of generation is what I came up with, and,

186
00:12:08,875 –> 00:12:12,529
not really having any idea what exactly I

187
00:12:12,529 –> 00:12:16,209
was wanting to do. You know, I didn’t really figure I still don’t

188
00:12:16,209 –> 00:12:19,970
even know what I wanna do when I talk about it. So it’s like it

189
00:12:19,970 –> 00:12:23,545
comes down to, I was a sophomore in high

190
00:12:23,545 –> 00:12:27,005
school, and my high school

191
00:12:27,545 –> 00:12:31,310
invited and approved for junior ROTC for air Force

192
00:12:31,310 –> 00:12:35,150
to be, added to the curriculum at my high school,

193
00:12:35,150 –> 00:12:38,930
which was great, but it was also the 1st year that they started block scheduling.

194
00:12:39,524 –> 00:12:43,285
So I ended up joining, Junior ROTC Air

195
00:12:43,285 –> 00:12:47,020
Force Edition for, for the PE credit

196
00:12:47,260 –> 00:12:51,100
because I was not very athletically inclined. Right? So I

197
00:12:51,100 –> 00:12:54,852
was, you know, couch potato, Friday night, Family Writers,

198
00:12:54,860 –> 00:12:58,645
watching, you know, home improvement, all that stuff, where

199
00:12:58,645 –> 00:13:02,425
it was like, Friday night, you’re watching TV. Right? So On ABC.

200
00:13:02,565 –> 00:13:05,770
That’s right. There you go. So that that was the thing that I grew up

201
00:13:05,770 –> 00:13:08,650
with. So when I was trying to go, you know, play football or whatever, I

202
00:13:08,650 –> 00:13:12,145
was not interested in sports. It just completely turned me off.

203
00:13:13,745 –> 00:13:16,225
And so when I got to high school, I was like, wait a minute. You

204
00:13:16,225 –> 00:13:19,985
mean I cannot get all sweaty and nasty and still get a PE credit?

205
00:13:19,985 –> 00:13:23,720
Okay. Cool. Yeah. I’ll do that. So for the 1st 6 months fourth the

206
00:13:23,720 –> 00:13:27,160
1st semester of that, and it was also the 1st block schedule, so we went

207
00:13:27,160 –> 00:13:30,600
from 7 credits per year to 8 credits per

208
00:13:30,600 –> 00:13:34,415
year, with 4 per semester. And so I was grandfathered

209
00:13:34,555 –> 00:13:38,394
in, being that my 1st freshman year, I only needed a certain number

210
00:13:38,394 –> 00:13:42,030
of credits to graduate. So I was able to pick up extra credits junior, so

211
00:13:42,190 –> 00:13:46,030
you know, sophomore, junior, senior year. So I actually graduated high school 6

212
00:13:46,030 –> 00:13:49,815
months early in December. And then I joined

213
00:13:49,815 –> 00:13:53,495
the military in March, and I graduated and

214
00:13:53,495 –> 00:13:56,955
walked the stage at basic training the same week that my graduating

215
00:13:57,015 –> 00:14:00,790
class walked the stage at high school. So I was already

216
00:14:01,010 –> 00:14:04,450
in service, when by the time my class

217
00:14:04,450 –> 00:14:07,250
graduated. But the the thing that comes down to it is is,

218
00:14:08,365 –> 00:14:12,125
I went during junior ROTC. I went from being, my

219
00:14:12,125 –> 00:14:15,585
first actual positive affirmation

220
00:14:16,605 –> 00:14:20,350
came from that right up there. That top

221
00:14:20,350 –> 00:14:23,330
one that’s right up there is actually a certificate for,

222
00:14:24,270 –> 00:14:27,625
my first accomplishment in Junior ROTC, which which

223
00:14:27,625 –> 00:14:31,305
was, most improved cadet. Right? So I went

224
00:14:31,305 –> 00:14:35,080
from being in the the gray man, like, in the book, not

225
00:14:35,080 –> 00:14:38,280
doing anything at the beginning of the year Tom at the end of the year,

226
00:14:38,280 –> 00:14:42,014
I’m out in front, like, calling commands for drill

227
00:14:42,014 –> 00:14:45,855
team and color guard. Okay. Tom summer camps,

228
00:14:45,855 –> 00:14:49,475
I went to the ROTC summer camps, for junior ROTC

229
00:14:49,695 –> 00:14:53,020
that was then, ended up my senior year.

230
00:14:53,400 –> 00:14:56,760
Because I was graduating early, I ended up as the cadet corps commander for the

231
00:14:56,760 –> 00:15:00,275
1st semester. I left, I got a letter of recommendation from

232
00:15:00,575 –> 00:15:03,555
my ROTC instructor. I enlisted. I was

233
00:15:04,415 –> 00:15:07,075
the youngest guy in my basic training

234
00:15:07,829 –> 00:15:11,610
company, but I was also one of the highest ranking.

235
00:15:11,990 –> 00:15:15,645
Nice. So I kinda had it pretty bad from the get go. But,

236
00:15:16,205 –> 00:15:19,825
I mean, all in all, joining when I did was essentially

237
00:15:20,205 –> 00:15:23,505
my way out. Right? I wanted to get out of,

238
00:15:24,200 –> 00:15:27,640
my hometown. I wanted to get away from where I grew up. I wanted to

239
00:15:27,640 –> 00:15:30,760
go out and see some other things, but also, I mean, I was 17, and

240
00:15:30,760 –> 00:15:34,445
I needed a job. Right? I mean, not everybody

241
00:15:34,445 –> 00:15:38,045
makes, you know, good choices when they’re when they’re growing up.

242
00:15:38,045 –> 00:15:41,720
I ended up having, being 17 and listening to

243
00:15:41,720 –> 00:15:45,160
military with a wife and child on the way. So I had my

244
00:15:45,160 –> 00:15:48,774
child about 3 weeks before I turned 18

245
00:15:48,774 –> 00:15:52,535
while I was at AIT at Fort Gordon. So my oldest son, Ethan,

246
00:15:52,535 –> 00:15:56,210
is now 25, going Tom 26. So it’s no coincidence

247
00:15:56,270 –> 00:15:59,810
that I retired at 21 years, the year that my son turned 21.

248
00:16:00,190 –> 00:16:03,870
Right. So, you know, when you’re 17 and you can’t get a job anywhere, it

249
00:16:03,870 –> 00:16:07,235
kind of, like, restart sun. Now I would have joined a lot sooner,

250
00:16:07,855 –> 00:16:11,214
had the Air Force recruiter not essays me around a little bit.

251
00:16:11,214 –> 00:16:15,009
January, February time frame, he pushed me off too much. And I was like, you

252
00:16:15,009 –> 00:16:18,769
know what? I ain’t got time to wait around. So, the

253
00:16:18,769 –> 00:16:21,490
army started looking pretty nice, but I did. I enlisted, and,

254
00:16:22,449 –> 00:16:26,195
I ended up going to the spent 8 years in my first

255
00:16:26,195 –> 00:16:29,975
unit at Fort Bragg as a non airborne personnel. And then

256
00:16:30,035 –> 00:16:33,640
after 2 tours to Iraq, I ended up essentially,

257
00:16:34,500 –> 00:16:38,340
got tired of, what what they like to call the the big green

258
00:16:38,340 –> 00:16:41,940
weenie Mhmm. And ended up being told

259
00:16:41,940 –> 00:16:45,685
by the, the branch manager for my

260
00:16:45,685 –> 00:16:49,365
MOS, I was a radio operator, was pretty much like, hey. We’re gonna

261
00:16:49,365 –> 00:16:53,110
force reclass you, and you’re gonna go over to across the

262
00:16:53,110 –> 00:16:56,870
street at the 82nd Airborne Division and carry a manpack for the lieutenant. And I

263
00:16:56,870 –> 00:17:00,265
was just like, no. I’m not. Yeah. I had I had about a year I

264
00:17:00,265 –> 00:17:03,945
had about a year and a half and some change left before, after, you

265
00:17:03,945 –> 00:17:07,630
know, I was contemplating getting out at 8 years and being done.

266
00:17:08,990 –> 00:17:11,550
And a buddy of mine, he said, no, man. You need to you need to

267
00:17:11,550 –> 00:17:15,390
talk to this guy who gave me a business card for, Sergeant First Class

268
00:17:15,390 –> 00:17:19,115
Jamie Rodriguez. And I called up this dude, and I was

269
00:17:19,115 –> 00:17:22,335
like, hey, man. What do you got for me? He’s like he’s like, well,

270
00:17:23,274 –> 00:17:25,355
come on over here and talk to me. And I’m gonna tell you, when I

271
00:17:25,355 –> 00:17:28,909
met dude, he had the most beautiful mane of hair that I’ve ever

272
00:17:28,909 –> 00:17:31,710
seen in my entire life, and I was like, there’s no way this dude is

273
00:17:31,710 –> 00:17:35,155
our first class with hair like that. And I’m I’m gonna tell you,

274
00:17:35,715 –> 00:17:39,075
he’s like, ma’am. Well, civil affairs, man. Let me tell you about what it is.

275
00:17:39,075 –> 00:17:41,895
So I I did civil affairs, which was essentially,

276
00:17:43,660 –> 00:17:47,040
if you look at the triad of the special operations

277
00:17:47,100 –> 00:17:50,720
community, you got a pyramid. Right? And the tip of the spear, that pyramid

278
00:17:50,780 –> 00:17:54,285
at the top, you got the green beret, you got the SF, the ODAs.

279
00:17:55,065 –> 00:17:58,905
You got the big, mean, ugly guys that bag and tag and do all kinds

280
00:17:58,905 –> 00:18:02,290
of bad things to bad people. Right? And then supporting them

281
00:18:02,290 –> 00:18:05,350
underneath on the other corners, you got the psychological operations.

282
00:18:06,210 –> 00:18:09,715
They’re the voice and the essays, essentially, for for operations,

283
00:18:10,174 –> 00:18:13,855
for special operations. So and then you’ve got the civil

284
00:18:13,855 –> 00:18:17,570
affairs side, which they’re essentially they’re the face in the handshake. So

285
00:18:17,630 –> 00:18:20,929
you got these 3 entities working together in order to,

286
00:18:21,630 –> 00:18:25,070
complete the mission, which most of the time was along some type of

287
00:18:25,070 –> 00:18:28,385
counterterrorism activity of sorts

288
00:18:29,165 –> 00:18:32,845
or support the host nation government at, you know, aid and assist type

289
00:18:32,845 –> 00:18:36,520
missions, depending on where you’re at. You know, if you’re over in Afghanistan,

290
00:18:36,580 –> 00:18:39,860
you’re doing a completely different mission than if you’re over in the Philippines. Right? Of

291
00:18:39,860 –> 00:18:43,615
course. Combat combat zone versus host nation support

292
00:18:43,615 –> 00:18:46,995
stuff. So but that that triad, of

293
00:18:47,055 –> 00:18:50,815
individuals being able to support each other and understanding, like, what your

294
00:18:50,815 –> 00:18:54,279
role is in in the task at hand,

295
00:18:55,220 –> 00:18:58,740
when out there doing you’re not gonna find a better team. Right? So most of

296
00:18:58,740 –> 00:19:02,205
what I learned leadership wise So there’s 2

297
00:19:02,205 –> 00:19:05,345
there’s 2 folds to this. There is the

298
00:19:07,485 –> 00:19:10,357
as the example of what not to do as a

299
00:19:10,357 –> 00:19:14,190
leaders, and then the example of what it you

300
00:19:14,190 –> 00:19:17,549
are supposed to do as a leader. So fourth my 1st 8 years, I’d only

301
00:19:17,549 –> 00:19:20,935
knew one flavor of leadership. Right? Just that one, and that

302
00:19:20,935 –> 00:19:23,755
was, you know, coercive

303
00:19:24,295 –> 00:19:27,669
dictator. Hey. Let’s tell you, Paper Book rank. I

304
00:19:27,669 –> 00:19:31,370
win. Libby do what you’re told kinda turning, to,

305
00:19:33,030 –> 00:19:36,765
the actual effective, deliberate leadership that comes from being

306
00:19:36,765 –> 00:19:40,465
a special operations where it’s, you know, people are more important than equipment.

307
00:19:40,525 –> 00:19:43,505
You have the you know, you follow basically the 12 self imperatives.

308
00:19:44,450 –> 00:19:48,050
And as long as you are operating within those 12

309
00:19:48,050 –> 00:19:50,550
soft imperatives and you’re taking care of your people,

310
00:19:51,805 –> 00:19:55,565
you’re gonna have a smooth ride and everybody’s gonna be having you know, everybody’s gonna

311
00:19:55,565 –> 00:19:59,360
be taking care of everybody else. So it just comes down to seeing both

312
00:19:59,360 –> 00:20:02,100
sides of that coin and being able to tailor,

313
00:20:03,440 –> 00:20:07,095
various leadership styles from throughout my career, I think,

314
00:20:07,095 –> 00:20:10,475
is what really has allowed me to become

315
00:20:10,855 –> 00:20:14,600
adaptable as I am to the situations that I find myself in when

316
00:20:14,600 –> 00:20:18,200
I’m dealing with a variety of individuals, be

317
00:20:18,200 –> 00:20:21,995
it a veteran who is suffering a mental health crisis in the

318
00:20:21,995 –> 00:20:25,215
moment, to a grieving surviving spouse,

319
00:20:26,395 –> 00:20:28,815
for, you know, a fallen veteran, to

320
00:20:30,700 –> 00:20:34,240
that service member who who got picked up for DUI

321
00:20:34,460 –> 00:20:38,080
back home, you know, in in, Erath County,

322
00:20:38,445 –> 00:20:41,405
who was just home on leave and just made a poor choice, you know. It

323
00:20:41,405 –> 00:20:44,865
just turns into there’s a variety of opportunity

324
00:20:45,245 –> 00:20:48,790
to, you know, make an impact as to how you approach

325
00:20:49,330 –> 00:20:53,090
all those situations, as a, you

326
00:20:53,090 –> 00:20:56,630
know, as a leader, as a veteran, as a peer, as a

327
00:20:56,855 –> 00:21:00,634
you name it, that’s what I can be in that moment just based on

328
00:21:01,174 –> 00:21:04,934
the the the two sides of that

329
00:21:04,934 –> 00:21:08,740
leadership coin that I’ve been able to to to use. To use.

330
00:21:08,740 –> 00:21:12,420
Yeah. I actually prefer I actually prefer the you

331
00:21:12,420 –> 00:21:16,165
know, nobody wants to be in that dictatorship type leadership role where the

332
00:21:16,165 –> 00:21:19,845
only reason somebody’s doing it is because they have respect for the position and the

333
00:21:19,845 –> 00:21:23,525
rank and not the person. So I think that that you you can

334
00:21:23,525 –> 00:21:27,290
run-in and identify a lot of different, like, toxic leadership traits

335
00:21:27,670 –> 00:21:31,430
to identify people who are there for selfish reasons and doing it for

336
00:21:31,430 –> 00:21:34,755
individual versus team, you know,

337
00:21:35,295 –> 00:21:38,655
advancement. So it just comes down to I’d I like to

338
00:21:38,655 –> 00:21:42,470
be the team player and give credit where credit’s

339
00:21:42,470 –> 00:21:45,130
due. Mhmm. Right? So it is

340
00:21:46,309 –> 00:21:50,025
the going all the way back and all the experience that

341
00:21:50,025 –> 00:21:53,485
I’ve had, my my childhood

342
00:21:54,665 –> 00:21:58,330
was a big impact. My first duty station,

343
00:21:58,390 –> 00:22:01,670
which was my last duty station. Right? And I’ll talk about that later, but when

344
00:22:01,670 –> 00:22:04,730
I say that, my first unit that I went to Mhmm.

345
00:22:06,255 –> 00:22:09,855
And then that transition piece where I decided, you know, I

346
00:22:09,855 –> 00:22:13,555
don’t I don’t wanna stop doing army.

347
00:22:14,175 –> 00:22:17,850
Mhmm. But I don’t wanna be where I’m at anymore. Really

348
00:22:17,850 –> 00:22:21,130
set something, you know? Because, I mean, it comes down to retention writers, you know?

349
00:22:21,130 –> 00:22:24,605
If you guys just like any business that has a company that

350
00:22:24,605 –> 00:22:28,384
just turnover’s high, you’ve got

351
00:22:28,445 –> 00:22:31,830
poor reviews coming in from clients or customers, whatever

352
00:22:32,070 –> 00:22:35,769
whatever it is you’re selling, whatever you’re doing. I mean, most likely,

353
00:22:36,230 –> 00:22:39,590
it’s not the it’s not the product, you know, and it’s not the

354
00:22:39,590 –> 00:22:43,054
employees. It’s it’s your middle management, your senior

355
00:22:43,054 –> 00:22:46,595
management not not doing their job as a effective

356
00:22:46,735 –> 00:22:50,210
leader to, you know, provide proper

357
00:22:50,210 –> 00:22:53,890
motivation and direction and guidance to get the job done effectively. I mean,

358
00:22:53,890 –> 00:22:57,490
nobody wants their time wasted. And that’s that’s the one thing that I learned in

359
00:22:57,490 –> 00:23:01,155
the military. Like, you really wanna piss off some solar,

360
00:23:01,155 –> 00:23:04,915
waste their time. Waste their time. Waste their time. And,

361
00:23:05,075 –> 00:23:08,170
and that’s the one thing the military is known for is hurry up and wait.

362
00:23:08,650 –> 00:23:12,410
Like, government in general, hurry up and wait. You you owe Uncle Sam

363
00:23:12,410 –> 00:23:15,210
something, they’ll reach in your bank account, take it from you. But, man, if you

364
00:23:15,210 –> 00:23:17,855
don’t Uncle Sam owes you something, you can take a number and stand in line.

365
00:23:17,855 –> 00:23:21,455
We’ll get to you next year. Right. So it just depends on,

366
00:23:21,695 –> 00:23:24,275
that those kinds of perspectives. But

367
00:23:25,820 –> 00:23:29,260
So there’s a lot there that you that you gave me. No. It was great.

368
00:23:29,260 –> 00:23:31,840
It was fabulous. I was taking notes the whole time you were talking.

369
00:23:33,565 –> 00:23:37,245
And, you know, I find it interesting that, you know, you started

370
00:23:37,245 –> 00:23:41,005
out as a 17 year old who just wanted to sort of get away from

371
00:23:41,005 –> 00:23:43,184
where you were and get out and have new experience.

372
00:23:45,070 –> 00:23:47,310
And that opened the door

373
00:23:47,357 –> 00:23:50,610
Tom. Not to make it sound heroic,

374
00:23:51,390 –> 00:23:54,735
but this is the word. It opened the door to further adventures. Right? It opened

375
00:23:54,735 –> 00:23:58,175
the door to further things that you probably couldn’t have, couldn’t have

376
00:23:58,175 –> 00:23:58,675
anticipated.

377
00:24:02,480 –> 00:24:06,160
Going back to that for just a Jesan, one of the challenges of our

378
00:24:06,160 –> 00:24:09,780
current era, of our current Tom, and this podcast does focus,

379
00:24:10,205 –> 00:24:13,645
focused heavily on in our 2nd year, was the meaning

380
00:24:13,645 –> 00:24:17,250
crisis among, or is the meaning crisis among young men.

381
00:24:17,970 –> 00:24:20,950
Right now, you know, you talk about suicides among veterans.

382
00:24:21,410 –> 00:24:24,310
Suicides among young men overall are way up.

383
00:24:25,515 –> 00:24:29,215
Young men are struggling in our culture, and I have a a heart for this.

384
00:24:29,515 –> 00:24:32,955
Young men are struggling in our culture to find meaning and to

385
00:24:32,955 –> 00:24:36,159
define themselves. And so as an American society,

386
00:24:36,620 –> 00:24:40,299
we’ve done a really awesome job of elevating

387
00:24:40,299 –> 00:24:43,840
our girls and our women and putting them in positions of leadership,

388
00:24:44,605 –> 00:24:47,505
education, all that kind of good stuff. We’ve done a really good job of that.

389
00:24:47,804 –> 00:24:51,164
We have not done a good job. We just haven’t. And this is where I’m

390
00:24:51,164 –> 00:24:54,880
coming at it from this angle. We have not done a good job of

391
00:24:54,880 –> 00:24:58,240
defining what meaning looks

392
00:24:58,240 –> 00:25:01,779
like for young males. And so

393
00:25:02,345 –> 00:25:05,865
the question that I have for you is this, every young

394
00:25:05,865 –> 00:25:09,390
male, when you were 17, you were the same way,

395
00:25:09,710 –> 00:25:13,010
needs a task to go on

396
00:25:13,470 –> 00:25:17,150
in order to develop meaning. And you said you had a wife and a

397
00:25:17,150 –> 00:25:20,605
kid, on the way, and and and, you know,

398
00:25:21,145 –> 00:25:23,785
and and I’m not saying that I said between every 17 year old male needs

399
00:25:23,785 –> 00:25:26,985
to have a wife and a child, is that what I’m saying? But I’m saying

400
00:25:26,985 –> 00:25:30,770
that that sense of the the the

401
00:25:30,770 –> 00:25:34,450
gas in the tank, right, being, hey, these people gotta

402
00:25:34,450 –> 00:25:37,795
eat, and they’re looking at me. You know? Yeah. That gave you meaning.

403
00:25:38,655 –> 00:25:42,415
Talk a little bit about how maybe we can not

404
00:25:42,415 –> 00:25:45,760
solve the turning crisis, but what are the ways that young men can get meaning

405
00:25:45,840 –> 00:25:49,360
in this culture, in particular when you have less than I

406
00:25:49,360 –> 00:25:53,040
believe it’s less than 1 tenth of

407
00:25:53,040 –> 00:25:56,585
1 percent of the available male population in America serves in the military.

408
00:25:56,725 –> 00:26:00,165
So clearly that’s a nonstarter with the vast

409
00:26:00,165 –> 00:26:03,940
majority of gen Z ers and millennials for a

410
00:26:03,940 –> 00:26:07,140
whole variety of reasons that we don’t need to get into. That’s a nonstarter. So

411
00:26:07,140 –> 00:26:10,500
how do we solve for that meeting crisis? Because I do ask folks when they

412
00:26:10,500 –> 00:26:13,975
come on and I was asking about last year in our last season, what do

413
00:26:13,975 –> 00:26:17,735
we do around this? How do we solve this challenge? Because it is the challenge

414
00:26:17,735 –> 00:26:21,275
of our time. Because if you have young women who are accomplished,

415
00:26:22,610 –> 00:26:26,370
quite frankly, they’re gonna wanna marry young men who are accomplished. They’re not gonna wanna

416
00:26:26,370 –> 00:26:29,590
marry young men who are not accomplished. And you have writers. I have daughters,

417
00:26:30,505 –> 00:26:34,345
and we don’t want them marrying young men that are unaccomplished. Right? So how do

418
00:26:34,345 –> 00:26:37,625
we resolve this? What were some ideas you have maybe? And I know this is

419
00:26:37,625 –> 00:26:40,630
a challenge question. It’s not on the list, but it is something that pops up

420
00:26:40,630 –> 00:26:44,410
from your experience. Yeah. Yeah. No. It’s it’s absolute I think it’s valid,

421
00:26:44,630 –> 00:26:48,304
actually. What what what you’re talking about is actually extremely

422
00:26:48,304 –> 00:26:52,065
valid, especially in today’s, like, society. And I’m

423
00:26:52,065 –> 00:26:55,640
speaking specifically just our culture in America, society.

424
00:26:55,940 –> 00:26:59,780
Sure. Yeah. I mean, you could go macro all day, and we can go, you

425
00:26:59,780 –> 00:27:02,680
know, down to micro. But I’m just so I just in just in,

426
00:27:03,654 –> 00:27:07,414
American culture today with the and being a

427
00:27:07,414 –> 00:27:10,790
parent, like, I have 2 adult children that are out in the world

428
00:27:11,350 –> 00:27:14,950
already doing their thing. Right? Right. And I have

429
00:27:14,950 –> 00:27:17,910
2 young children that are still at the home that are in you know, they’re

430
00:27:17,910 –> 00:27:21,735
not even in middle school yet. Yeah. So kinda turns

431
00:27:21,735 –> 00:27:25,355
into when I look at

432
00:27:27,230 –> 00:27:30,910
what needs to be done, like, I have control over what I have

433
00:27:30,910 –> 00:27:34,645
control over. Absolutely. And I think what turns into is I

434
00:27:34,645 –> 00:27:38,245
know the expectation that I have for my

435
00:27:38,245 –> 00:27:41,465
children. Mhmm. The problem is is

436
00:27:42,570 –> 00:27:46,010
being from the generation that I’m from and having the

437
00:27:46,010 –> 00:27:49,549
experience I have, it has taken everything

438
00:27:50,010 –> 00:27:53,805
for me to turn off the

439
00:27:53,865 –> 00:27:57,705
the NCO, the noncommissioned officer that I have buried inside of me

440
00:27:57,836 –> 00:28:01,470
Tom treat them as, you know, 7 9 year old children and

441
00:28:01,470 –> 00:28:05,070
not soldiers. Because they don’t they don’t they don’t have that expect

442
00:28:05,150 –> 00:28:08,670
they don’t know that expectation when they’re there’s no basic training for

443
00:28:08,670 –> 00:28:12,385
them. No. Accomplish any of that. So everything that

444
00:28:12,385 –> 00:28:15,905
they know, they know from the

445
00:28:15,905 –> 00:28:19,600
parent. So when it comes to, like, children in general, and you we’re talking

446
00:28:19,679 –> 00:28:23,280
we talk about strong male role model in the house. We talk

447
00:28:23,280 –> 00:28:26,865
about, you know, be the example in the home.

448
00:28:26,865 –> 00:28:29,605
Like, I I try to exhibit,

449
00:28:31,105 –> 00:28:34,560
a demeanor and a persona, for my son to

450
00:28:34,560 –> 00:28:38,240
reflect as the man that he should try to strive to

451
00:28:38,240 –> 00:28:42,000
be. Mhmm. And for my daughter, I try to do the same for the

452
00:28:42,000 –> 00:28:45,475
type of man that she wants to marry. Right? So it really just comes

453
00:28:45,475 –> 00:28:47,735
down to morals, ethics, values,

454
00:28:49,715 –> 00:28:53,560
establishing accountability and responsibility at a

455
00:28:53,560 –> 00:28:57,020
young age, and not, placating

456
00:28:57,400 –> 00:29:01,184
to those feelings that, you know, most

457
00:29:01,184 –> 00:29:04,865
people would placate to at that young age. If they’re wrong,

458
00:29:04,865 –> 00:29:08,625
they’re wrong. Sure. And being identified as such and saying, hey,

459
00:29:08,625 –> 00:29:12,210
no, this is wrong. But given given children, you know, you

460
00:29:12,210 –> 00:29:15,970
gotta give them enough grace to learn. Right. So it just comes

461
00:29:15,970 –> 00:29:19,365
down to the crisis that we’re having with young men

462
00:29:19,365 –> 00:29:23,205
today not, not stepping up to the plate

463
00:29:23,205 –> 00:29:26,909
or not being capable or not having the motivation or the

464
00:29:26,909 –> 00:29:30,750
drive or the whatever. I mean, at the end of the day, it’s

465
00:29:30,750 –> 00:29:34,425
all an individual event. I mean, you can turn to your

466
00:29:34,425 –> 00:29:37,545
left, you can turn to your right, and you can point fingers all you want,

467
00:29:37,545 –> 00:29:40,685
but you have the everybody has the ultimate,

468
00:29:41,280 –> 00:29:44,880
you know, I’m gonna make this happen. Right? And it’s more one of

469
00:29:44,880 –> 00:29:47,700
those kind of, like it’s the difference in

470
00:29:48,375 –> 00:29:52,215
in, stepping up to a challenge, right, and

471
00:29:52,215 –> 00:29:55,815
saying, I’m gonna continue to just do

472
00:29:55,815 –> 00:29:59,430
this because I’m comfortable with it, versus stepping up to a

473
00:29:59,430 –> 00:30:03,110
challenge and saying, you know what? I I I think I got this down. I’m

474
00:30:03,110 –> 00:30:06,230
ready for something a little bit harder. I’m gonna go for the next thing and

475
00:30:06,230 –> 00:30:09,675
the next thing and the next thing. And that’s gonna be the difference between, like,

476
00:30:10,135 –> 00:30:13,655
you know, the development and growth versus just stagnation and

477
00:30:13,655 –> 00:30:17,190
death. So those two things kind of go hand in hand. So if you’re

478
00:30:17,190 –> 00:30:20,790
not actually pushing pushing forward to the next

479
00:30:20,790 –> 00:30:23,530
thing, then why are you even bothering

480
00:30:24,585 –> 00:30:28,265
doing anything? Like, don’t even bother. Just you might as well just stop breathing. I

481
00:30:28,265 –> 00:30:31,770
think that’s really what’s happened with a lot of them is they just see what

482
00:30:31,770 –> 00:30:35,530
is going on around them in society. They think that, you know, it’s

483
00:30:35,530 –> 00:30:39,370
not gonna get any better. Right. Especially with the when they look at

484
00:30:39,370 –> 00:30:42,955
it from an economy side of the house to the

485
00:30:42,955 –> 00:30:46,495
political side to, you know,

486
00:30:46,635 –> 00:30:50,040
everything from wages Tom interest rates to, you

487
00:30:50,040 –> 00:30:53,720
know, credit ratings. You know, everything just starts to build on, and you’re

488
00:30:53,720 –> 00:30:57,340
taking you know, kids are not being prepared for that

489
00:30:58,014 –> 00:31:01,634
by their parents Mhmm. Nor the education system.

490
00:31:01,934 –> 00:31:05,075
So it really comes down to I think there’s an unrealistic

491
00:31:05,695 –> 00:31:09,300
expectation that most parents in America

492
00:31:09,300 –> 00:31:13,060
today have on what the education system is supposed to

493
00:31:13,060 –> 00:31:16,440
be doing for them. Mhmm. And so that unrealistic expectation

494
00:31:16,660 –> 00:31:20,365
is ending in failure and not preparing the individuals

495
00:31:21,625 –> 00:31:25,470
to go out into society and actually be successful. And, I mean, it turns

496
00:31:25,470 –> 00:31:29,150
into there’s a number of other dynamics that can you can go into and

497
00:31:29,150 –> 00:31:32,424
really whittle down to those individual

498
00:31:32,725 –> 00:31:36,485
opportunities and situations, or what if this, what if that. But really I think

499
00:31:36,485 –> 00:31:38,025
it really just comes down to

500
00:31:40,540 –> 00:31:43,920
providing the right example

501
00:31:44,540 –> 00:31:48,365
Mhmm. For the child in the home. I don’t care who their parent

502
00:31:48,365 –> 00:31:52,205
is. As long as their parent is doing the right thing and doing things right

503
00:31:52,365 –> 00:31:55,185
Mhmm. They’re gonna they’re gonna get what they need out of it.

504
00:31:56,125 –> 00:31:59,950
And it just kinda turns into the they’re gonna have that

505
00:31:59,950 –> 00:32:03,470
internal drive or they’re not, and they’re either gonna get that

506
00:32:03,470 –> 00:32:07,025
from the right example or the wrong example. But they’re gonna

507
00:32:07,025 –> 00:32:10,785
emulate what it is that they see every single day.

508
00:32:10,785 –> 00:32:14,465
Right. So it just comes down to if you want your kids to do

509
00:32:14,465 –> 00:32:17,230
better, you do better. Right.

510
00:32:18,490 –> 00:32:21,450
Yeah. Well, you know, I I one of the things that I do say on

511
00:32:21,450 –> 00:32:25,265
this podcast is all of our leadership problems, and quite frankly, all of our

512
00:32:25,265 –> 00:32:29,105
leadership solutions, really do begin at the smallest level, and

513
00:32:29,105 –> 00:32:32,870
family is the fourth organizational culture. It’s the very first one,

514
00:32:32,870 –> 00:32:36,710
you know? It’s where you learn everything right off

515
00:32:36,710 –> 00:32:40,554
the bat. And then to your point about school,

516
00:32:40,695 –> 00:32:43,735
you’re shoved out into the world where you find out that there’s all these other

517
00:32:43,735 –> 00:32:47,495
representatives from all these other organizations and they run-in their organization the same

518
00:32:47,495 –> 00:32:51,220
way you came out of. And now that’s where that’s where the

519
00:32:51,220 –> 00:32:55,045
friction begins. You know? That’s where the learning the learning begins.

520
00:32:55,285 –> 00:32:58,905
The learning begins. That’s right. But you never you’ll never stop learning.

521
00:32:58,965 –> 00:33:02,725
It’s it’s Right. Yep. You would you could get to a point to where you

522
00:33:02,725 –> 00:33:06,280
refuse to learn For sure. But that

523
00:33:06,280 –> 00:33:09,900
opportunity to learn is never gonna go away. It just depends on,

524
00:33:10,520 –> 00:33:14,315
the individuals who are in those positions of leadership or in those positions. I

525
00:33:14,315 –> 00:33:18,095
mean, it just comes down to there’s there’s a variety of personalities,

526
00:33:18,475 –> 00:33:22,100
and there’s a variety of leadership styles,

527
00:33:22,100 –> 00:33:24,520
and there’s just it just comes down to

528
00:33:25,860 –> 00:33:29,320
human beings. We’re unique just like everyone else.

529
00:33:30,215 –> 00:33:34,054
So So one other thing in your background that

530
00:33:34,054 –> 00:33:37,434
I put a star next to that I wanna talk about is,

531
00:33:40,310 –> 00:33:43,990
well, for fourth both you and I, there was an event

532
00:33:43,990 –> 00:33:47,495
that occurred in September of 2,001 that sort of

533
00:33:47,495 –> 00:33:51,255
shaped our generation. And it it it

534
00:33:51,255 –> 00:33:54,135
ping ponged me with one direction. It ping ponged me in another direction. As a

535
00:33:54,135 –> 00:33:57,390
matter of fact, that event, September 11th,

536
00:33:58,410 –> 00:34:01,070
occurred literally 13 days before I turned 21.

537
00:34:03,505 –> 00:34:06,725
And for me, I’ve characterized that as

538
00:34:07,105 –> 00:34:10,810
literally the beginning of chaos for the last 20 years fourth. Like, it’s been just

539
00:34:10,810 –> 00:34:14,510
non nonstop chaos ever since up until about this point.

540
00:34:15,050 –> 00:34:18,670
And and I’m comfortable. You talked about the word adaptable. I’m adaptable

541
00:34:18,730 –> 00:34:22,264
to chaos. And I think a lot of us who are in this generation are

542
00:34:22,264 –> 00:34:25,784
adaptable to chaos because it’s all we’ve it’s all we’ve ever known. And that, of

543
00:34:25,784 –> 00:34:29,199
course, gets back to my my thesis that I had you I challenged you with

544
00:34:29,199 –> 00:34:31,760
a little bit floating around in your head there about the 4th turning and about

545
00:34:31,760 –> 00:34:35,199
getting to the end of all this. You were already in

546
00:34:35,199 –> 00:34:39,005
service in, in, in, in, in, when, when September 11th

547
00:34:39,005 –> 00:34:42,305
happened. Talk with us a little bit about

548
00:34:42,960 –> 00:34:46,560
the 2 tours in Iraq and sort of what were some of the lessons you

549
00:34:46,560 –> 00:34:50,100
learned, from book, because previous to that,

550
00:34:51,065 –> 00:34:54,045
you know, the last major American,

551
00:34:55,464 –> 00:34:58,505
deployment to the Middle East was the 1st Persian Gulf. And that was over in

552
00:34:58,505 –> 00:35:01,720
like, I don’t wanna say 10 seconds. But, I mean, like, I knew I knew

553
00:35:01,720 –> 00:35:05,500
people who went there who were older older brothers and sisters of ours. Right?

554
00:35:05,720 –> 00:35:09,484
Yeah. And then after that 3 days. Last about 3 essays. And then they

555
00:35:09,484 –> 00:35:13,325
were walking around in and I’m not again, I don’t wanna minimize anybody’s service, but

556
00:35:13,325 –> 00:35:17,130
they were walking around Bosnia in the mid nineties. There was

557
00:35:17,130 –> 00:35:20,890
some discussion of sending American troops to Rwanda. Bill Clinton

558
00:35:20,890 –> 00:35:23,290
could never get the public support for that, so that never got up off the

559
00:35:23,290 –> 00:35:27,135
ground. But then, you know, we’re, we’re right into, into

560
00:35:27,135 –> 00:35:30,755
the biggest deployment or I shouldn’t say the biggest, the most serious

561
00:35:30,895 –> 00:35:34,690
deployment of men and materiel to a place overseas since

562
00:35:34,690 –> 00:35:37,589
probably Vietnam, where we actually

563
00:35:38,770 –> 00:35:42,485
as a country decided, via our leaders, our

564
00:35:42,485 –> 00:35:46,005
civilian leadership, Donald Rumsfeld, and, you know, George W.

565
00:35:46,005 –> 00:35:49,790
Bush that, oh, okay. You got all of our

566
00:35:49,790 –> 00:35:53,470
attention. Now you, you, you claimed you wanted it. Now you got

567
00:35:53,470 –> 00:35:57,265
it and we’re going to do the man dance. And the first

568
00:35:57,265 –> 00:36:00,945
dance, I guess, is going to be ours. And you were part

569
00:36:00,945 –> 00:36:04,785
of that, that push you were part of that engagement. So talk with us

570
00:36:04,785 –> 00:36:08,620
a little bit about, because again, you were already in the thing. You

571
00:36:08,620 –> 00:36:11,420
were already in the in the in the you were already 3 years in the

572
00:36:11,420 –> 00:36:15,234
thing when September 11th happened. So how was that for you? How impactful was

573
00:36:15,234 –> 00:36:18,454
that for you? How did that shift your thinking about,

574
00:36:19,075 –> 00:36:22,214
leadership or or maybe even reinforce things as you think about leadership?

575
00:36:23,540 –> 00:36:24,040
So

576
00:36:29,300 –> 00:36:32,635
yeah. So at the time, September

577
00:36:32,695 –> 00:36:36,315
11th, I was serving I was a I was a sergeant,

578
00:36:36,455 –> 00:36:40,110
e 5, and I was a I

579
00:36:40,110 –> 00:36:43,950
was very quickly, like, I very quickly made

580
00:36:43,950 –> 00:36:47,790
e 5, once I made my unit. So it kinda

581
00:36:47,790 –> 00:36:51,585
turned into I I started off as a PFC in basic

582
00:36:51,585 –> 00:36:54,944
training. I had automatic promotion to e fourth 12

583
00:36:54,944 –> 00:36:58,750
months. I was promoted to e 5. I was 19

584
00:36:58,750 –> 00:37:02,430
years old. Mhmm. And then a week later, I turned 20.

585
00:37:02,430 –> 00:37:05,885
And I’m gonna tell you, it is difficult having a

586
00:37:05,885 –> 00:37:09,565
safety brief with a team of 6 guys who are

587
00:37:09,565 –> 00:37:12,980
all in their mid twenties or late twenties, early

588
00:37:12,980 –> 00:37:16,520
thirties, and I’m telling them, alright, guys. No drinking and driving this weekend.

589
00:37:16,900 –> 00:37:20,020
Call me if you need me. And they’re like, yeah. We’ll we’ll definitely call you

590
00:37:20,020 –> 00:37:23,775
because we know you’re gonna be sober because you can’t even buy alcohol yet. So,

591
00:37:24,715 –> 00:37:28,335
being a leader of of older people

592
00:37:28,795 –> 00:37:32,589
Mhmm. Was was a very difficult and daunting task that I had

593
00:37:32,589 –> 00:37:36,050
to deal with. So I very rarely, with new,

594
00:37:36,990 –> 00:37:40,765
incoming soldiers, would express, like, let them know, like, what my

595
00:37:40,765 –> 00:37:43,984
age was. But I carried myself very maturely

596
00:37:44,125 –> 00:37:47,580
because I I had to. And it was the, you

597
00:37:47,580 –> 00:37:51,280
know, I had the knowledge and I had the the training and I had

598
00:37:51,660 –> 00:37:55,340
the the promotion orders. I had the things backing me up saying that, you

599
00:37:55,340 –> 00:37:58,865
know, this is this is who I am. This is what I am. Mhmm.

600
00:37:59,485 –> 00:38:03,025
And going at the time, I was actually the the school’s

601
00:38:03,325 –> 00:38:06,720
NCO for the battalion, and I ran the leadership

602
00:38:06,720 –> 00:38:10,559
development course. That was a pre course to the Sorrells Leaders fourth that they

603
00:38:10,559 –> 00:38:14,185
have now. It used to be called, the PLDC or the primary

604
00:38:14,185 –> 00:38:17,325
leadership development course. It was a 30 day lockdown

605
00:38:17,545 –> 00:38:20,905
course that you would go into, and in 30

606
00:38:20,905 –> 00:38:23,450
days, you would go in as a specialist,

607
00:38:24,549 –> 00:38:28,079
e 4 promotable, and you would come out as a e 5.

608
00:38:28,079 –> 00:38:31,805
Okay. Most of the time getting promoted as soon as you graduated. So you

609
00:38:31,805 –> 00:38:35,485
would leave the unit for 30 days and go, you know, live,

610
00:38:35,485 –> 00:38:38,869
train, and learn with a bunch of other e fourth promotables,

611
00:38:39,170 –> 00:38:43,010
spy, you know, staff sergeants, sergeant first classes, giving

612
00:38:43,010 –> 00:38:46,805
you all the ins and outs on, you know, leadership stuff. Mostly a heavy

613
00:38:46,805 –> 00:38:50,565
focus on land navigation. Right? But a lot everything else

614
00:38:50,565 –> 00:38:52,985
everything else is pretty much leadership stuff.

615
00:38:54,245 –> 00:38:58,070
That’s where you go through, you memorize the NCO creed, you memorize the soldiers

616
00:38:58,070 –> 00:39:01,270
creed, you go through basically, you have all check all these books, and then you

617
00:39:01,270 –> 00:39:05,065
graduate, then you get promoted. So coming back to that, I was

618
00:39:05,065 –> 00:39:07,965
currently dropping soldiers off at

619
00:39:08,905 –> 00:39:12,610
PLDC. I was waiting and we get there early, like,

620
00:39:12,690 –> 00:39:16,130
2 30, 3 o’clock in the morning because, you know, you’ve got so many people

621
00:39:16,130 –> 00:39:19,570
that have hard slots, but then you got a whole plethora of other people for,

622
00:39:19,570 –> 00:39:23,055
like, standby in case someone doesn’t pass the weigh in fourth

623
00:39:23,055 –> 00:39:26,895
somebody doesn’t have all their writers, you know. Because if you show up and you’re

624
00:39:26,895 –> 00:39:30,680
missing an item, they they, nope. You’re done. Go go back to your unit. See

625
00:39:30,680 –> 00:39:34,520
you next class. That kind of thing. So I’m I’m I was sitting in my

626
00:39:34,520 –> 00:39:38,085
car waiting for my attendees who had

627
00:39:38,085 –> 00:39:41,765
already been accepted. They had already passed. I’m just setting with the

628
00:39:41,765 –> 00:39:45,610
rest of their gear, waiting on them to come

629
00:39:45,610 –> 00:39:49,290
and actually grab their weapon and grab their stuff and go to training. Right?

630
00:39:49,290 –> 00:39:52,955
So, when I had a guy named,

631
00:39:53,415 –> 00:39:57,015
staff sergeant fourth it was, sergeant Ryan

632
00:39:57,015 –> 00:40:00,700
Austin comes over. He knocked on the fourth, and he was he was

633
00:40:00,700 –> 00:40:04,540
there. He wasn’t there as a

634
00:40:04,540 –> 00:40:08,135
student, I don’t believe, but he was there on

635
00:40:08,135 –> 00:40:11,895
detail helping me move all the stuff. Because it’s a big muscle movement to get

636
00:40:11,895 –> 00:40:15,720
from to get a little bit and get set up. Over, knocks

637
00:40:15,720 –> 00:40:18,920
on the window. He’s like, hey, man. Something’s happening. Turn on the radio. And I

638
00:40:18,920 –> 00:40:22,040
was just like, what’s what? He’s like, yeah. Some plane hit the u the, you

639
00:40:22,040 –> 00:40:25,704
know, the trade trade towers in in New York. I was like, no, man. And

640
00:40:25,704 –> 00:40:28,525
then I turned on the radio, started listening. I was like, oh, man. This is

641
00:40:28,905 –> 00:40:32,680
this is not good with what’s going on. And so I didn’t

642
00:40:32,680 –> 00:40:36,280
actually, process what was

643
00:40:36,280 –> 00:40:39,865
happening at the moment. I still had task at hand. Hey, I

644
00:40:39,865 –> 00:40:43,305
still got soldiers that’s gotta be somewhere. I got things going on. I’m just like

645
00:40:43,305 –> 00:40:47,065
everybody. They, you know, put the blinders on and focus on what you got

646
00:40:47,065 –> 00:40:50,420
going on and worry about New York and what’s happening

647
00:40:50,420 –> 00:40:53,860
later. But the only question came up that came out really quick

648
00:40:53,860 –> 00:40:57,560
was if there’s anybody that has anybody

649
00:40:57,620 –> 00:41:01,415
or connection to anybody that works or lives in

650
00:41:01,555 –> 00:41:05,235
Manhattan, New York where the World Trade Center was happening on, the the command

651
00:41:05,235 –> 00:41:08,800
wanted to know. Who are the people who are gonna be greatest greatly

652
00:41:08,800 –> 00:41:12,560
affected by this are gonna be those who have family relatives that are

653
00:41:12,560 –> 00:41:15,915
in that area. So and and it was fourth where we were at, I mean,

654
00:41:15,915 –> 00:41:19,035
there was a couple of people that, yeah, they had, you know, family members that

655
00:41:19,035 –> 00:41:22,870
were, you know, you know, either worked in the area or worked in

656
00:41:22,870 –> 00:41:26,550
the building or did something like that. So but going from there, it

657
00:41:26,550 –> 00:41:30,095
was pretty much when I got back to the battalion headquarters and walked

658
00:41:30,095 –> 00:41:33,295
in and dropped my stuff off on my desk, and I walked around to the

659
00:41:33,295 –> 00:41:36,415
CQ where the TV was on, and I looked at the TV and saw the

660
00:41:36,415 –> 00:41:40,030
news. Mhmm. I was just like I looked over at the the

661
00:41:40,030 –> 00:41:43,630
guy that was sitting on staff duty at the time, and I was just like

662
00:41:44,665 –> 00:41:48,505
you know what this means. Right? Mhmm. It is like it is like some

663
00:41:48,505 –> 00:41:51,464
private. He’s like, I don’t know, sir. And I was like, means we’re going to

664
00:41:51,464 –> 00:41:55,230
war what this means. Like, from then, it was just pretty

665
00:41:55,230 –> 00:41:58,940
much, everything

666
00:41:59,515 –> 00:42:03,355
changed that day in regards to

667
00:42:03,355 –> 00:42:06,895
training, in regards Tom discipline, in regards

668
00:42:06,954 –> 00:42:09,190
to, like, there was no more,

669
00:42:12,210 –> 00:42:15,510
laps on the wrist article 15 for, you know,

670
00:42:16,365 –> 00:42:19,645
anything. It was like, if you were going in for an article 15, you did

671
00:42:19,645 –> 00:42:23,325
some heinous something or other, we’re not taking any crap. You’re you gotta go because

672
00:42:23,325 –> 00:42:26,780
we gotta we gotta we’re going overseas. This is happening.

673
00:42:27,880 –> 00:42:31,560
So my unit, the the 51st signal battalion, we

674
00:42:31,560 –> 00:42:35,365
were slated to support the 22nd signal brigade,

675
00:42:37,105 –> 00:42:40,865
out of the gate. So we rolled in we rolled in to

676
00:42:40,865 –> 00:42:44,430
Iraq from Kuwait. I deployed out March

677
00:42:45,130 –> 00:42:47,930
of 03. We,

678
00:42:48,970 –> 00:42:52,345
we deployed March of 03, and then within 3

679
00:42:52,345 –> 00:42:55,885
weeks, we headed north and crossed the border from Kuwait to Iraq,

680
00:42:56,025 –> 00:42:59,470
and it was a terrible ride.

681
00:42:59,690 –> 00:43:03,310
Right? Because, I mean, the signal equipment, we got big trucks, and we got gas.

682
00:43:03,370 –> 00:43:06,905
We got antennas. We got jet fuel. We got You got all that good all

683
00:43:06,905 –> 00:43:10,185
the work. You got all that good table work equipment. Yeah. We got all the

684
00:43:10,265 –> 00:43:13,945
and we’re and we’re rolling through. We’re in our our Humvees. We don’t have

685
00:43:14,025 –> 00:43:17,690
there’s no alarm or anything. We don’t know what that even is at the time.

686
00:43:17,690 –> 00:43:21,450
So we we’ve got no doors on hanging up this side.

687
00:43:21,450 –> 00:43:24,270
We got flak jackets on that are basically just

688
00:43:25,195 –> 00:43:29,035
the shrapnel is all they’re gonna stop. They’re not gonna stop anything serious, but,

689
00:43:29,035 –> 00:43:31,935
I mean, we rolled through after, you know,

690
00:43:32,650 –> 00:43:35,930
after, I wanna say it was 3rd entry division. It could have been 4th entry

691
00:43:35,930 –> 00:43:39,290
division. 4th ID or 3rd ID. I can’t remember which one. But we rolled through

692
00:43:39,290 –> 00:43:42,925
right after they rolled through. Let’s just say that they decimated

693
00:43:43,145 –> 00:43:46,984
everything. It was the sheer like,

694
00:43:46,984 –> 00:43:50,790
I had never seen a level of carnage as up at

695
00:43:50,790 –> 00:43:54,150
that point. Like, and then just that’s when it was just like, this

696
00:43:54,150 –> 00:43:57,829
is surreal. Like, this is like no other. And

697
00:43:57,829 –> 00:44:01,535
then, you know, and at the time, I was, you know, I was

698
00:44:01,535 –> 00:44:05,234
just the e five. I had 5 people on my team.

699
00:44:05,760 –> 00:44:09,540
2 of them were NCOs. I just so happen to outrank them by data rank,

700
00:44:09,599 –> 00:44:12,819
so they were just bodies. Right? And the

701
00:44:13,585 –> 00:44:17,424
the equipment that I was on was the remote access unit. So I

702
00:44:17,424 –> 00:44:21,125
was in charge of the team that would go out and set up

703
00:44:21,570 –> 00:44:25,270
an omnidirectional antenna out

704
00:44:25,330 –> 00:44:28,790
away from everything in the middle of nowhere,

705
00:44:29,010 –> 00:44:32,365
just put this antenna up that shoots, that is actually

706
00:44:32,425 –> 00:44:36,265
transmitting in all directions so everyone can have access to

707
00:44:36,265 –> 00:44:39,545
this and they’re, you know, so they can make phone calls from their Humvees and

708
00:44:39,545 –> 00:44:43,296
stuff. And we we rolled that equipment fourth,

709
00:44:43,359 –> 00:44:46,740
and we never set it up. So from that point, essentially,

710
00:44:46,880 –> 00:44:50,525
my radio trucks were used to connect node

711
00:44:50,525 –> 00:44:54,365
centers to node centers across. So I was actually a part of

712
00:44:54,365 –> 00:44:57,985
the 22nd Signal Brigades historic moment of creating

713
00:44:58,205 –> 00:45:01,660
the most fourth the

714
00:45:01,660 –> 00:45:05,040
largest tactical communications

715
00:45:05,420 –> 00:45:09,225
network in history in 2003.

716
00:45:09,765 –> 00:45:13,445
So, I did that job for about about 4

717
00:45:13,445 –> 00:45:17,170
months Mhmm. Of just manning radios Manning radio tower.

718
00:45:17,250 –> 00:45:20,930
Soldiers. I, you know, I spent my 23rd birthday in a guard tower, you

719
00:45:20,930 –> 00:45:24,325
know, on overwatch. So it just turned in like it was, you know, you were

720
00:45:24,325 –> 00:45:27,224
there we were soldiering. That’s what we were doing. Mhmm.

721
00:45:27,925 –> 00:45:31,705
And everybody, you know we made the best of what we had.

722
00:45:32,000 –> 00:45:35,760
Mhmm. We had terrible living conditions. Mail was always slow. I mean, it

723
00:45:35,760 –> 00:45:39,360
was just the beginning of the war. It was there was Right. Dirt dirt floors

724
00:45:39,360 –> 00:45:43,184
and winter tents is what we were living in. Yeah. So, I mean, it

725
00:45:43,184 –> 00:45:46,325
was just miserable. So you had to have a certain level of,

726
00:45:46,865 –> 00:45:50,545
like, sense of humor when it comes to the heat of the

727
00:45:50,545 –> 00:45:54,210
day. Like like yeah. Alright. Hey, man.

728
00:45:54,210 –> 00:45:57,250
Hey. The fourth song’s coming over. Everybody get your tops on. Book look over here.

729
00:45:57,250 –> 00:45:59,810
It looks right. It’s like, everybody get your stuff together. It’s like, hey, man. Wake

730
00:45:59,810 –> 00:46:02,025
him up, man. He’s like, get get him up. Get him up. Get him up.

731
00:46:02,025 –> 00:46:04,985
Because we would just be like, we’d be passing out from the heat in the

732
00:46:04,985 –> 00:46:08,825
middle of the day just just gone. So it kinda turned into we that’s

733
00:46:08,825 –> 00:46:12,450
where we really learned and came together as a as a team and

734
00:46:12,450 –> 00:46:16,290
really built, you know, those bonds that were gonna get us through the

735
00:46:16,290 –> 00:46:20,065
rest of deployment. But it was tough. The

736
00:46:20,065 –> 00:46:23,744
first two tours the Jesan tour was not as

737
00:46:23,744 –> 00:46:27,365
bad as the first one. It was more infrastructure, better organized,

738
00:46:27,610 –> 00:46:31,310
better food, better every better everything pretty much. And it was like

739
00:46:32,090 –> 00:46:35,770
no other like, you go to the field at Fort Bragg, formerly known as Fort

740
00:46:35,770 –> 00:46:39,505
Bragg You go to this field for 2, 3

741
00:46:39,505 –> 00:46:43,345
weeks and live in the woods and play army, pretty much. Right. Yeah.

742
00:46:43,345 –> 00:46:45,845
Paint the faces up and do all the things, and

743
00:46:47,080 –> 00:46:50,680
then you go to Iraq, and you’re in the desert, and it is nothing like

744
00:46:50,680 –> 00:46:53,960
what you trained in. Right? So you’re just like, why are we even doing this

745
00:46:53,960 –> 00:46:57,655
garbage back here in the rear? Like, this doesn’t make any sense. Well, we’re

746
00:46:57,655 –> 00:47:01,095
doing this, and we’re deploying to the desert. I mean, this is

747
00:47:01,095 –> 00:47:04,935
completely asinine and stupid. And so after you

748
00:47:04,935 –> 00:47:08,460
know, when I joined up, I mean, it turned into the, like,

749
00:47:09,240 –> 00:47:13,079
the combat the combat recognition and combat patch that came from

750
00:47:13,079 –> 00:47:16,105
those deployments. Those first deployments,

751
00:47:17,365 –> 00:47:21,205
were probably the first one was probably the hardest. Right? 1st, 2nd,

752
00:47:21,205 –> 00:47:24,950
3rd year end always, because you’re establishing everything, staying in everything up.

753
00:47:26,130 –> 00:47:29,975
Going back in because I was there from 03 to 04, came home

754
00:47:29,975 –> 00:47:33,655
for 9 months, did a bunch of marriage counseling and stuff. I had some

755
00:47:33,655 –> 00:47:37,415
issues on the on the home front there. Deployed again, came

756
00:47:37,415 –> 00:47:40,100
home single. So the

757
00:47:41,060 –> 00:47:44,820
by the time I was 24, 20

758
00:47:44,980 –> 00:47:48,375
by the time I was 25 years of age, I’d been

759
00:47:48,375 –> 00:47:51,895
divorced twice, filed bankruptcy once Mhmm.

760
00:47:52,295 –> 00:47:55,895
And still doing the job and

761
00:47:55,895 –> 00:47:59,720
trying to figure it out. And and at the same time, yeah, I

762
00:47:59,720 –> 00:48:03,420
was you know, alcohol was kind of like a crutch.

763
00:48:03,560 –> 00:48:07,225
Like Mhmm. Is this kinda, like, part of the the Yep.

764
00:48:07,385 –> 00:48:11,225
The whole the whole system is, you know, you go out,

765
00:48:11,225 –> 00:48:14,905
you’re at Fort Bragg, you’re running 4 miles every

766
00:48:14,905 –> 00:48:18,700
week, You’re doing PT you’re doing physical training 5 days

767
00:48:18,700 –> 00:48:22,400
a week. You know? Mhmm. And you’re rocking at least

768
00:48:22,755 –> 00:48:26,194
6 to to 8 miles a week, and then you’ve got a 12

769
00:48:26,194 –> 00:48:29,255
mile validation every 3 months. You’ve got

770
00:48:29,780 –> 00:48:33,620
the North Carolina sweltering humidity in the summer that is

771
00:48:33,620 –> 00:48:37,380
just astronomical. And, by the way,

772
00:48:37,380 –> 00:48:40,965
you’re going out for, you know, nickel pitcher night at the,

773
00:48:41,105 –> 00:48:44,945
you know, at the bar downtown on Bragg Boulevard, you know, Saturday,

774
00:48:44,945 –> 00:48:48,060
Sunday night book to back, and then you’re out running 6 miles Monday

775
00:48:48,280 –> 00:48:51,980
turning, down our ends with, you know, 82nd Airborne

776
00:48:51,980 –> 00:48:54,720
Division and everybody trying to do all their things. So

777
00:48:56,115 –> 00:48:59,555
it it kinda turned into after those first two

778
00:48:59,555 –> 00:49:03,155
deployments, I was really

779
00:49:05,320 –> 00:49:08,120
it really messed me up. I really came into a place where I was just

780
00:49:08,120 –> 00:49:11,420
like, there is no God. Mhmm. I was very

781
00:49:12,200 –> 00:49:15,855
agnostic in everything and was just like, there’s no purpose in

782
00:49:15,855 –> 00:49:19,215
any of this kind of deal from everything that I’d seen and everything that

783
00:49:19,215 –> 00:49:22,960
I witnessed and done. It was just like, there’s this just this doesn’t

784
00:49:22,960 –> 00:49:26,560
make sense to me. It was very difficult to process, you know, at 25 years

785
00:49:26,560 –> 00:49:29,920
of age. And now I’m looking at my Jesan, who’s 25, and I’m just

786
00:49:29,920 –> 00:49:33,654
like, the problems that you have can in comparison,

787
00:49:34,194 –> 00:49:38,035
there is no comparison, but I’m not gonna, like, hold you to the same

788
00:49:38,035 –> 00:49:41,600
standard because you didn’t have the same upbringing that I had. You didn’t have the

789
00:49:41,760 –> 00:49:45,360
Yeah. The same experiences that I had. So it’s no there’s no real

790
00:49:45,360 –> 00:49:49,055
comparison. So when you start talking about, like, that whole ending of the crisis rotation

791
00:49:49,275 –> 00:49:53,115
type thing Mhmm. Yeah, you can see it in the generation of today that

792
00:49:53,115 –> 00:49:56,575
that’s probably accurate. It’s gonna be pretty mellow

793
00:49:57,290 –> 00:50:00,810
for, you know, upcoming before it starts getting gnarly again.

794
00:50:00,810 –> 00:50:04,350
But, that period of time,

795
00:50:06,785 –> 00:50:10,164
I really didn’t experience growth

796
00:50:11,424 –> 00:50:15,160
because I was not focused on development or growth. Okay. I

797
00:50:15,160 –> 00:50:18,700
was in fact, I was stagnant at that point.

798
00:50:19,079 –> 00:50:22,655
Yeah. Because my my I wanna say it was my 2nd

799
00:50:22,655 –> 00:50:26,335
tour to Iraq. I was an e 5 promotable. I’d been in e

800
00:50:26,335 –> 00:50:29,990
5 for about fourth and a half

801
00:50:29,990 –> 00:50:33,830
years as a sergeant e five. And I’ve and

802
00:50:33,830 –> 00:50:37,585
for, you know, 2 of those years, I’ve been promotable, and I just couldn’t make

803
00:50:37,585 –> 00:50:41,265
points. I didn’t have the civilian education to make the points with the way the

804
00:50:41,265 –> 00:50:44,785
rank structure works with how the promotion system worked Tom make e

805
00:50:44,785 –> 00:50:47,870
6. So I’m sitting here looking at, like, e 5p,

806
00:50:48,410 –> 00:50:51,950
pretty stagnant. I’m sitting here, and then, you know, there’s this

807
00:50:52,170 –> 00:50:55,905
this this guy oh, his name was Sarna First Class Letts.

808
00:50:56,685 –> 00:50:59,724
And I was at The Joint. This is when I was at the end of

809
00:50:59,724 –> 00:51:03,540
my Jesan rotation, I think it was, and this guy, sergeant first

810
00:51:03,540 –> 00:51:07,380
class let’s he was 82nd airborne division signal guy Mhmm. And

811
00:51:07,380 –> 00:51:11,095
he was the signal liaison for the the 82nd signal

812
00:51:11,095 –> 00:51:14,934
battalion Mhmm. Supporting the 22nd signal brigade.

813
00:51:14,934 –> 00:51:18,694
And I was tasked just Tom be the 51st signal battalion

814
00:51:18,694 –> 00:51:21,730
liaison. So we’re all sitting in this big room, and at the end of the

815
00:51:21,730 –> 00:51:25,490
night every night, we’re briefing the brigade colonel or the s 3, you

816
00:51:25,490 –> 00:51:29,095
know, major on what’s going on with the

817
00:51:29,095 –> 00:51:32,935
network. And this guy, Soren Letts, comes over, and

818
00:51:32,935 –> 00:51:35,895
he’s I I can’t even remember what the argument was over, but he came over

819
00:51:35,895 –> 00:51:38,350
and he said something. I was just like, sorry. I I was like, I know

820
00:51:38,350 –> 00:51:41,550
what I’m doing. I’ve been in e book for, like, 5 years now. He looked

821
00:51:41,550 –> 00:51:44,930
at me and he was just like, that ain’t something to brag about, man.

822
00:51:45,714 –> 00:51:49,234
Like, being an E5 for 5, that isn’t something that you should be bragging

823
00:51:49,234 –> 00:51:52,454
about. Like, what what the hell is wrong with you? Like,

824
00:51:53,089 –> 00:51:56,770
why would you think that that’s okay? That doesn’t make me feel any better

825
00:51:56,770 –> 00:52:00,550
about this conversation. Like, and I’m just like not even processing

826
00:52:00,609 –> 00:52:04,115
what he’s saying as far as like, you know, what are you

827
00:52:04,115 –> 00:52:07,955
talking about? So but then it kinda came it dawned on me

828
00:52:07,955 –> 00:52:10,135
later whenever I actually,

829
00:52:11,510 –> 00:52:15,349
was leaving that position and we were getting replaced with another unit that

830
00:52:15,349 –> 00:52:19,005
came in. That’s whenever, he came, you know, he

831
00:52:19,005 –> 00:52:22,765
came over and said, hey, man. You’ve got a lot of potential. Mhmm. You

832
00:52:22,765 –> 00:52:25,985
have you have unlimited potential with your

833
00:52:26,750 –> 00:52:30,510
with what you have already. You need to

834
00:52:30,590 –> 00:52:34,050
he and he was based on the ones, like, you need to get away

835
00:52:34,505 –> 00:52:38,265
from this signal stuff, and you need to go across the

836
00:52:38,265 –> 00:52:41,625
street, and you need to go do something a special ops

837
00:52:41,625 –> 00:52:45,359
guy. So and and it was basically just like he’s just

838
00:52:45,359 –> 00:52:48,720
like he he’s like, there’s no reason that you should be in e 5 for

839
00:52:48,720 –> 00:52:52,515
5 years. He’s just like, you’re right. You know exactly what you’re doing,

840
00:52:52,515 –> 00:52:54,995
and you’re up here. And at and at the time, man, you’re at I’m at

841
00:52:54,995 –> 00:52:58,630
the liaison. I’m, like, with the joint networking

842
00:52:58,850 –> 00:53:02,370
operation center. 22nd center brigade running and

843
00:53:02,370 –> 00:53:06,025
every battalion attached under that brigade that they have command and

844
00:53:06,025 –> 00:53:09,724
control over, operational command and control over. I mean, there was, like,

845
00:53:10,105 –> 00:53:13,545
15 different battalions, and every single like, there

846
00:53:13,545 –> 00:53:16,920
were captains that were sitting as liaisons

847
00:53:18,180 –> 00:53:21,880
next to me. Right? There were sergeant first classes

848
00:53:21,995 –> 00:53:25,055
and master sergeants. We’re talking, like, e 8, e 7,

849
00:53:25,675 –> 00:53:29,450
o three level ranking guy. I’m the the

850
00:53:29,450 –> 00:53:33,210
lowest ranking liaison guy. Yeah. And I’m an

851
00:53:33,210 –> 00:53:36,785
e 5. And I’m just like and

852
00:53:36,785 –> 00:53:40,625
going up and briefing the brigade colonel like it’s nothing. But, you know, the

853
00:53:40,625 –> 00:53:43,505
first couple of briefings I had that I had to get through, I was really,

854
00:53:43,505 –> 00:53:47,099
like, hesitant on what it was. But I had some I had some great

855
00:53:47,099 –> 00:53:50,700
mentorship there that basically was, like, hey, man. Here’s here’s how you breathe. Here’s what

856
00:53:50,700 –> 00:53:53,845
you need to focus on. Let me see your slides. Okay. This is what you’re

857
00:53:53,845 –> 00:53:56,005
gonna show them. This is what you’re gonna say. This is what you’re gonna show

858
00:53:56,005 –> 00:53:57,924
them. This is what you’re gonna say. This is what you’re gonna show them. This

859
00:53:57,924 –> 00:54:01,765
is what you’re gonna say. Ask any questions. If they ask any questions, just

860
00:54:01,765 –> 00:54:04,540
say, sir, I don’t know, but I’ll get back to you as soon as I

861
00:54:04,540 –> 00:54:07,820
get back from my s 3. And then you go and you send that question

862
00:54:07,820 –> 00:54:10,655
to your s 3, and then you report back to a v. You know? You

863
00:54:10,655 –> 00:54:14,015
know? Just basically, I had a a a, you know, Sergeant First Class let

864
00:54:14,015 –> 00:54:17,775
really that dude really set me straight. So there

865
00:54:17,775 –> 00:54:21,440
are people like that in that early

866
00:54:21,440 –> 00:54:25,200
years that really set up my success for

867
00:54:25,200 –> 00:54:28,865
advancement later because they got me out of the the

868
00:54:28,865 –> 00:54:32,465
wrong mindset. Right? So Bingo. Bingo. And

869
00:54:32,465 –> 00:54:36,145
that’s something that that’s something

870
00:54:36,145 –> 00:54:39,850
that I think and, and again, this

871
00:54:39,850 –> 00:54:43,690
is sort of an offshoot of the young men, you know, kind of commentary or

872
00:54:43,690 –> 00:54:47,375
comment that I had before Tom set up my previous question, but it

873
00:54:47,375 –> 00:54:51,075
does sort of relate to this for young people in general. I think that

874
00:54:51,535 –> 00:54:54,675
every young person and I’ve I’ve had experiences in my life where,

875
00:54:55,690 –> 00:54:59,450
particularly in my twenties where I was stagnating, just like you

876
00:54:59,450 –> 00:55:03,145
were. And somebody came along and said, you’re

877
00:55:03,145 –> 00:55:06,825
wasting your time here. You need to do something else. Yeah. And I looked

878
00:55:06,825 –> 00:55:10,180
around just like you did. I looked around and went, you’re talking to me?

879
00:55:11,220 –> 00:55:14,900
What? Hey. Who? Who? I can sometimes jump at my

880
00:55:14,900 –> 00:55:17,880
kids, you know? And

881
00:55:19,484 –> 00:55:23,165
that, it’s like the jay

882
00:55:23,165 –> 00:55:25,825
Z song or the jay z rap song, that moment of clarity.

883
00:55:26,069 –> 00:55:29,809
Writers? Jay Z raps. Thank God for granting me this moment of clarity,

884
00:55:29,809 –> 00:55:33,490
this moment of honesty. And it is

885
00:55:33,490 –> 00:55:36,734
that moment of clarity that I think

886
00:55:38,155 –> 00:55:41,914
really people need in their twenties. And I think both young men and young

887
00:55:41,914 –> 00:55:45,570
women need it. You need it less so in your thirties.

888
00:55:46,110 –> 00:55:49,330
If you’re looking for a moment of clarity in your forties, if

889
00:55:49,950 –> 00:55:53,665
right. Right. That’s how it could look. That’s what they call that’s what they call

890
00:55:53,665 –> 00:55:56,805
that midlife crisis. That’s a midlife crisis. Right. Exactly.

891
00:55:57,265 –> 00:56:00,980
Exactly. Turning over at fourth is is it can be done,

892
00:56:00,980 –> 00:56:04,580
but it is not comfortable. It is it is rough. Something that

893
00:56:04,580 –> 00:56:08,260
you’re yeah. It’s gonna be a rough deal. And that that’s that’s what I

894
00:56:08,260 –> 00:56:11,955
see on a regular basis doing what I’m doing now is

895
00:56:12,035 –> 00:56:15,575
Right. And so that’s where we’re, yeah, that’s where we’re pulling this now.

896
00:56:16,355 –> 00:56:19,790
Exactly. So, you know, I also

897
00:56:19,790 –> 00:56:23,550
believe that folks in their twenties, and and you kinda talked

898
00:56:23,550 –> 00:56:26,130
about this Tom, when you talked about alcohol as a crutch,

899
00:56:28,494 –> 00:56:32,255
You’re going to have and then I found this in my life

900
00:56:32,255 –> 00:56:35,535
and and and when we talk with other folks on the podcast about this as

901
00:56:35,535 –> 00:56:39,310
well, you’re gonna have a get tougher a Johnny Cash

902
00:56:39,310 –> 00:56:42,850
get tougher die moment. Like, you either have to figure it out

903
00:56:42,930 –> 00:56:46,005
fourth you’re gonna fall off the table and that’s and that’s it.

904
00:56:46,565 –> 00:56:49,625
I had my moment in, you know, the upper Midwest,

905
00:56:50,325 –> 00:56:54,005
in a little town you’d never heard of, you know, walking back home drunk in

906
00:56:54,005 –> 00:56:57,329
the middle of winter when it was like, you

907
00:56:57,869 –> 00:57:01,630
know, 12 below. And I was ill dressed for the weather. You’re

908
00:57:01,630 –> 00:57:04,190
either gonna get tough or you’re gonna die. Like, that’s the those are your only

909
00:57:04,190 –> 00:57:07,615
two options at that point. But I think those kinds of

910
00:57:07,615 –> 00:57:11,375
moments stick with people. And they do become the fundamental

911
00:57:11,375 –> 00:57:14,994
foundational moments that allow you to then you use the word mentor,

912
00:57:15,480 –> 00:57:19,320
mentor and coach others later on because you could speak from those experiences or pull

913
00:57:19,320 –> 00:57:22,760
from those experiences. And so I want to talk about that

914
00:57:22,760 –> 00:57:26,285
because you said the core of what you’re doing with, with

915
00:57:26,285 –> 00:57:29,965
Pecan Valley Writers is is reducing veteran suicide rates and

916
00:57:29,965 –> 00:57:33,005
trying to bring that down and try to work with folks that are impacted by

917
00:57:33,005 –> 00:57:35,960
this, by this phenomenon.

918
00:57:37,220 –> 00:57:40,580
And the types of things that you that you have

919
00:57:40,580 –> 00:57:44,265
experienced allow you to speak into those folks, those folks’

920
00:57:44,325 –> 00:57:46,665
lives with a credibility,

921
00:57:48,005 –> 00:57:51,785
and b, also, a genuine sense of

922
00:57:52,430 –> 00:57:55,970
care. And I don’t mean care in terms of

923
00:57:56,590 –> 00:58:00,030
a feminist ethic of care or some like scholarly idea of

924
00:58:00,030 –> 00:58:03,835
care. I mean, what I call hard headed empathy, right? Because you

925
00:58:03,835 –> 00:58:07,675
could talk with them from a hard headed position and you can essays,

926
00:58:07,675 –> 00:58:11,520
yeah, I’ve been down the road that you’ve been down and I know what

927
00:58:11,520 –> 00:58:15,120
the clearing at the end of that path is. And you know what the clearing

928
00:58:15,120 –> 00:58:18,640
at the end of that path is. And so let’s have a credible, no

929
00:58:18,640 –> 00:58:19,140
BS

930
00:58:27,365 –> 00:58:31,090
works a works a couple of different ways. It

931
00:58:31,090 –> 00:58:34,130
works if you could pull it off because you genuinely have had those experiences, which

932
00:58:34,130 –> 00:58:37,890
you have had, or it works if you could pull it off

933
00:58:37,890 –> 00:58:41,415
where, maybe you haven’t had those experiences,

934
00:58:42,115 –> 00:58:45,927
but you have enough to your point about authoritarianism fourth

935
00:58:46,355 –> 00:58:49,059
lack of adaptability. You have enough

936
00:58:50,291 –> 00:58:54,079
Sorrells authority. That’s something we talk about on this podcast, moral and ethical authority

937
00:58:54,079 –> 00:58:57,865
to be able to pull that off. Right. And

938
00:58:57,865 –> 00:59:01,145
it’s either gonna be one of those 2 approaches. Anything outside of those 2, either

939
00:59:01,145 –> 00:59:04,825
experience or moral authority, isn’t gonna get you there. And

940
00:59:04,825 –> 00:59:07,920
so priests and pastors and counselors,

941
00:59:08,620 –> 00:59:11,980
they have that moral authority. Even though they may not

942
00:59:11,980 –> 00:59:15,785
have the experiences, writers. They just have that authority because of

943
00:59:15,785 –> 00:59:19,305
the weight we give those positions in our culture. You’re coming out of that,

944
00:59:19,305 –> 00:59:22,850
that, that authority, or you’re getting that authority from experience. So

945
00:59:23,090 –> 00:59:26,850
talk with us a little bit about working with the veterans. What do you

946
00:59:26,850 –> 00:59:30,530
see inside of, well, let’s actually, let’s,

947
00:59:30,530 –> 00:59:33,805
let’s make this very, very tiny to start with, and then we can sort of

948
00:59:33,805 –> 00:59:37,105
blossom out from there. What are the

949
00:59:37,657 –> 00:59:40,830
writers for pushing veterans

950
00:59:41,050 –> 00:59:44,830
towards that clearing at the end of the path of suicide?

951
00:59:44,970 –> 00:59:48,785
What are the drivers towards that? I mean, you mentioned

952
00:59:48,785 –> 00:59:52,085
in your own life, you know, being twice divorced, alcohol, those types of things,

953
00:59:52,385 –> 00:59:55,665
financial issues, all of those kinds of things. The common things that we sort of

954
00:59:55,665 –> 00:59:59,069
think of is, are those the main drivers fourth is something else that we’re not

955
00:59:59,069 –> 01:00:02,130
aware of? So

956
01:00:02,990 –> 01:00:06,725
it comes down to when you

957
01:00:06,725 –> 01:00:10,025
really the fundamentals of just individuals

958
01:00:10,725 –> 01:00:13,865
who died by suicide. If you look into their

959
01:00:14,940 –> 01:00:18,540
if you look into what they were doing right up until fourth what was going

960
01:00:18,540 –> 01:00:22,140
on right before, you’re you’re most likely, you’re gonna see

961
01:00:22,140 –> 01:00:25,694
signs. You’re gonna see things. You’re gonna you’re gonna they’re either gonna

962
01:00:25,694 –> 01:00:29,055
say or do something that is gonna lead

963
01:00:29,055 –> 01:00:32,870
to that outreach and help. Right? Unless

964
01:00:33,010 –> 01:00:36,530
they are, like, just dead set on

965
01:00:37,545 –> 01:00:40,265
they they put a mark on the calendar and say, you know what? This is

966
01:00:40,345 –> 01:00:44,025
that’s the day when it gets here. I’ve made a decision, and I’m gonna stick

967
01:00:44,025 –> 01:00:47,369
to it. And they just live until that day, and they don’t show any signs

968
01:00:47,369 –> 01:00:50,590
or something. They’re just they just accept. Right? Mhmm.

969
01:00:51,369 –> 01:00:54,995
So, normally, that’s not the case. Normally, it’s a manifestation of a

970
01:00:54,995 –> 01:00:58,215
fleeting thought that, is

971
01:00:58,915 –> 01:01:02,535
just the right moment, right time where they actually have

972
01:01:03,700 –> 01:01:07,480
access, and Tom little to no barriers or mitigations

973
01:01:07,619 –> 01:01:10,980
to a legal means. Right? And it just ends up

974
01:01:10,980 –> 01:01:14,605
being, what was most of the time

975
01:01:14,605 –> 01:01:18,065
probably meant to be an attempt or an outreach to cry

976
01:01:19,085 –> 01:01:22,780
just it becomes legal. Right? So, I mean, 70% of sue

977
01:01:23,100 –> 01:01:26,700
of suicide deaths are via

978
01:01:26,700 –> 01:01:30,145
firearms. Right? Okay. But you have

979
01:01:30,285 –> 01:01:33,425
way more attempts with

980
01:01:33,885 –> 01:01:37,390
other means, such as, you know, sharp objects or or

981
01:01:37,390 –> 01:01:41,150
overdoses, pills, ingesting, some, you know, poisons fourth medications and stuff like

982
01:01:41,150 –> 01:01:44,990
that, where it comes down to those are just it it’s not that I

983
01:01:44,990 –> 01:01:48,375
don’t I don’t believe that it has anything to do

984
01:01:48,375 –> 01:01:52,075
with they just had more time or more

985
01:01:52,690 –> 01:01:55,330
or less fourth that time was of the essence kind of thing. I think it

986
01:01:55,330 –> 01:01:59,010
really just comes down to just that access to that lethal means in

987
01:01:59,010 –> 01:02:02,565
that moment. Right? So it comes down to that

988
01:02:02,565 –> 01:02:06,005
understanding, and that’s one of the things that, you know, I’m I’m a certified instructor

989
01:02:06,005 –> 01:02:09,845
on is counseling on access to those legal means. So that when I’m dealing

990
01:02:09,845 –> 01:02:13,580
with a veteran who is experiencing, you know, the some kind

991
01:02:13,580 –> 01:02:17,340
of depression, anxiety, or, combating post traumatic

992
01:02:17,340 –> 01:02:21,095
stress disorder fourth something like that, where they’re in that hazard moment,

993
01:02:21,235 –> 01:02:24,695
that’s when you turn to those closest to them and say, okay.

994
01:02:25,635 –> 01:02:29,260
You know where all the firearms are? Go get them. Let’s

995
01:02:29,260 –> 01:02:33,040
remove those from the equation. Let’s put time and distance between them,

996
01:02:33,980 –> 01:02:37,625
so that this moment will pass. Right? So

997
01:02:37,625 –> 01:02:41,005
it’s calculated right now. The average is about 10 minutes.

998
01:02:41,625 –> 01:02:45,325
10 minutes from the time the turning thought arrives, the execution of

999
01:02:45,385 –> 01:02:48,640
of of the, of the suicide,

1000
01:02:49,820 –> 01:02:53,440
that every minute beyond 10 minutes increases

1001
01:02:53,980 –> 01:02:57,585
the likelihood of survivability by, like, 35% per minute,

1002
01:02:58,045 –> 01:03:01,805
you know, for 10 minutes. So Okay. Really getting into that that

1003
01:03:01,805 –> 01:03:05,325
that time crunch is, like, that’s why it’s so important that we get

1004
01:03:05,325 –> 01:03:08,860
the the veterans out there to know, you know, I if you’re

1005
01:03:08,860 –> 01:03:12,540
having those thoughts, those fleeting thoughts, this is who you need to call, this is

1006
01:03:12,540 –> 01:03:15,975
what you need to call. And that, you know, 988 and press 1 is the

1007
01:03:15,975 –> 01:03:19,735
national suicide hotline. And there’s,

1008
01:03:19,735 –> 01:03:23,430
you know, there’s mobile crisis outreach teams at all the local

1009
01:03:23,430 –> 01:03:27,210
mental health authorities across Essays, you know. So, I mean, there’s there are

1010
01:03:28,310 –> 01:03:31,530
organizations and and mitigations in place,

1011
01:03:32,345 –> 01:03:36,105
but it just comes down to educating the veterans, the the families,

1012
01:03:36,105 –> 01:03:39,705
and the service members on what those things are. Right? Mhmm. And

1013
01:03:39,705 –> 01:03:43,320
then getting them that understanding of, you know, well

1014
01:03:43,700 –> 01:03:46,620
yeah. I mean, if your if your if your veteran is talking to you about,

1015
01:03:46,620 –> 01:03:49,620
you know, they’re not feeling they’re not feeling very good today, and they don’t really

1016
01:03:49,620 –> 01:03:52,765
feel like, you know, they just they start making comments along the lines that they

1017
01:03:52,765 –> 01:03:56,285
wanna go to sleep and not wake up. That those are, like, telltale signs that

1018
01:03:56,285 –> 01:03:58,445
you may wanna go ahead and start removing medications,

1019
01:04:00,190 –> 01:04:03,869
you know, sharp objects or firearms out of the

1020
01:04:03,869 –> 01:04:07,710
vicinity and put them under lock and key somewhere where they’re gonna have

1021
01:04:07,710 –> 01:04:11,295
to, you know, time and time and distance between those.

1022
01:04:11,927 –> 01:04:15,595
Writers? So but but if you don’t if you don’t educate the family on that

1023
01:04:15,595 –> 01:04:19,055
kind of stuff beforehand, they see that, they’re gonna you know? No one’s gonna

1024
01:04:19,420 –> 01:04:22,860
think, oh, they would never do something like that. Right? So it just turns

1025
01:04:22,860 –> 01:04:26,665
into like, there’s a lot of preparation and and

1026
01:04:26,825 –> 01:04:30,605
thought that can go into what can be done beforehand

1027
01:04:30,825 –> 01:04:34,205
to mitigate something that could be a potential threat,

1028
01:04:34,985 –> 01:04:38,650
in regards to the Let me ask you a question. So

1029
01:04:38,650 –> 01:04:40,430
very often in these types of conversations,

1030
01:04:44,089 –> 01:04:47,755
people will essays, Particularly

1031
01:04:47,815 –> 01:04:51,655
civilians will say. We seemed to not

1032
01:04:51,655 –> 01:04:54,750
have this problem with World War 2 vets, We seemed to not have this problem

1033
01:04:54,750 –> 01:04:57,950
with Korean War vets. We seemed to not have writers? And I’m I’m just setting

1034
01:04:57,950 –> 01:05:00,109
up the question. I’m not saying I believe it. I’m saying this is the question

1035
01:05:00,109 –> 01:05:03,695
that is often posed. Right? I’m

1036
01:05:03,695 –> 01:05:07,055
merely standing in because you gotta bring in other people, right, you know, with other

1037
01:05:07,055 –> 01:05:10,815
thoughts. Right. We seem to not have had this this this real

1038
01:05:10,815 –> 01:05:14,400
challenge until Vietnam. Is there something

1039
01:05:14,460 –> 01:05:18,060
in the social culture that broke since World War

1040
01:05:18,060 –> 01:05:21,820
2? Or or has this always been you mentioned

1041
01:05:21,820 –> 01:05:25,565
PTSD. Has this always been an issue, and we’re just better at

1042
01:05:25,565 –> 01:05:28,944
catching it now? I wanna say that we have

1043
01:05:29,244 –> 01:05:33,030
defined mental health a lot.

1044
01:05:34,130 –> 01:05:37,810
Like, just the way that psychology and

1045
01:05:37,810 –> 01:05:41,365
psychiatry and mental health in general over the last,

1046
01:05:41,745 –> 01:05:45,525
you know, 20, 40 years, the improvements and advancements and understanding

1047
01:05:45,665 –> 01:05:49,490
of those different those

1048
01:05:49,490 –> 01:05:53,170
different types of wait. What are they called? There’s different there’s, like,

1049
01:05:53,170 –> 01:05:55,030
7 different parts itself.

1050
01:05:58,105 –> 01:06:01,704
You know, like intelligence, emotional functions, those different

1051
01:06:01,704 –> 01:06:05,464
levels of whatever. So but being able to break down and understand and

1052
01:06:05,464 –> 01:06:09,150
having the the a mental health professional that is trained and understanding

1053
01:06:09,290 –> 01:06:12,970
in those different domains, that’s what they’re called, those different domains.

1054
01:06:12,970 –> 01:06:15,550
Domains. Yep. In order to better

1055
01:06:16,395 –> 01:06:19,775
better understand and guide the individual into

1056
01:06:20,474 –> 01:06:24,075
understanding of what they’re dealing with. Mhmm. And what they’re dealing with

1057
01:06:24,075 –> 01:06:27,840
is manageable and treatable, and, you know,

1058
01:06:27,900 –> 01:06:31,740
it’s it’s not something that they have to continue to suffer

1059
01:06:31,740 –> 01:06:35,395
from by themself. Right. That there are that there are other

1060
01:06:35,395 –> 01:06:38,915
things that an individual can do in order to overcome those types of mental health

1061
01:06:38,915 –> 01:06:42,530
challenges. Now, but, yeah, I mean, World

1062
01:06:42,530 –> 01:06:46,369
War 2, Korean Korean War, you know, I

1063
01:06:46,369 –> 01:06:50,165
mean, yeah, I’m not gonna say that they didn’t have their own mental

1064
01:06:50,165 –> 01:06:54,005
health issues coming back from those periods of Tom, but, I

1065
01:06:54,005 –> 01:06:57,550
mean, it was a different generation. I mean, you got you had the great

1066
01:06:57,550 –> 01:07:01,070
depression that led into, you know, World War 2. So if you wanna talk about

1067
01:07:01,070 –> 01:07:04,510
tough times, those individuals were

1068
01:07:04,510 –> 01:07:08,115
already hard. Right? Well, iron sharpens

1069
01:07:08,175 –> 01:07:11,635
iron when it comes down to it. And you’re dealing with now,

1070
01:07:12,255 –> 01:07:15,720
you’re dealing with a generation that is, you know, Cabbage Patch

1071
01:07:15,720 –> 01:07:19,560
Kids and GI Joes and, you know, carnivals on the

1072
01:07:19,560 –> 01:07:23,240
weekends and whatever. And now you’re you’re having a different a

1073
01:07:23,240 –> 01:07:26,744
different type of life, and then you’re going in and

1074
01:07:26,744 –> 01:07:28,765
you’re witnessing and experiencing,

1075
01:07:30,825 –> 01:07:34,359
traumas at such a depth that you’d

1076
01:07:34,359 –> 01:07:37,980
only seen in movies knowing it was fake.

1077
01:07:38,440 –> 01:07:41,955
Right. But then it’s in front of you, and it’s this is not fake. This

1078
01:07:41,955 –> 01:07:45,474
is not fake. Yeah. Real. Very like, it it is a

1079
01:07:45,474 –> 01:07:48,455
different level that an individual

1080
01:07:48,915 –> 01:07:51,390
steps into when they go from,

1081
01:07:53,710 –> 01:07:57,410
watching watching a movie, like Rambo to

1082
01:07:57,895 –> 01:08:01,435
going over and actually seeing what war really looks like.

1083
01:08:01,655 –> 01:08:05,335
And I’m gonna tell you, it’s not always it’s not always bodies and burning

1084
01:08:05,335 –> 01:08:09,050
bodies and that stuff. No. Most of the time you’re dealing you’re

1085
01:08:09,050 –> 01:08:12,590
you’re looking at just, like, 15 to 20 emaciated

1086
01:08:12,730 –> 01:08:16,335
children that are barely closed. Yeah. That are

1087
01:08:16,335 –> 01:08:19,895
just filthy head to toe, that are just out with their hands out. Just

1088
01:08:20,175 –> 01:08:23,840
there’s food food, you know, they’re just and it’s just those are

1089
01:08:23,840 –> 01:08:27,680
the kinds of things that just witnessing and seeing, you’re just like, man, this

1090
01:08:27,680 –> 01:08:31,494
is this is a bad way. And then you come back to the first world,

1091
01:08:31,494 –> 01:08:35,014
and you’re just like, where’s the TV remote? Right. I can’t find the

1092
01:08:35,014 –> 01:08:38,534
TV remote. Where is it? First world problem. Man, you got kids on the other

1093
01:08:38,534 –> 01:08:41,979
side of country, on the other side of the world that don’t have water to

1094
01:08:41,979 –> 01:08:45,739
drink, and you’re worried about what your damn TV remote is. Well, this is

1095
01:08:45,739 –> 01:08:49,194
the and this is the disconnect. I and I’m glad you brought this up because

1096
01:08:49,574 –> 01:08:53,175
you’re right. Like, my so

1097
01:08:53,175 –> 01:08:56,789
my grandfather and my

1098
01:08:57,489 –> 01:09:01,170
yeah. My grandfather on my mother’s side served in World War 2. And

1099
01:09:01,170 –> 01:09:04,955
then my I have a bunch of uncles and, who

1100
01:09:04,955 –> 01:09:08,475
served in, in Korea, bunch of them. And

1101
01:09:08,475 –> 01:09:12,314
then, by the time Vietnam came around, my father

1102
01:09:12,314 –> 01:09:16,080
was, was a Vietnam Vietnam vet. Writers. And,

1103
01:09:17,100 –> 01:09:20,540
you know, one of the things I push back on when people say,

1104
01:09:20,540 –> 01:09:24,000
well, what is this? Is this a new thing? Like, no,

1105
01:09:24,265 –> 01:09:27,305
But this is no. It’s not a new thing because the human brain is the

1106
01:09:27,305 –> 01:09:30,905
same as it’s it’s been for a while now, at least

1107
01:09:30,905 –> 01:09:34,540
10000 years. If you wanna go by that by that fact

1108
01:09:34,540 –> 01:09:38,300
fact, factoring of time. And so we’ve been

1109
01:09:38,300 –> 01:09:41,995
dealing emotionally with trauma Tom your point, pretty much the same.

1110
01:09:42,854 –> 01:09:46,375
Our understanding of that has gotten better. The difference

1111
01:09:46,375 –> 01:09:50,055
between 80 years ago and now is to your point, yeah, those guys

1112
01:09:50,055 –> 01:09:53,710
were tough. I mean, book, I remember my

1113
01:09:53,710 –> 01:09:57,390
grandmother telling me stories of her father, you know,

1114
01:09:57,390 –> 01:10:00,815
having to, she was a sharecropper’s daughter, one of like 12 kids,

1115
01:10:00,815 –> 01:10:04,435
writers? Having to, you know, get on a train and go get a job

1116
01:10:04,435 –> 01:10:08,170
somewhere that picking cotton. Right. And that job wasn’t

1117
01:10:08,170 –> 01:10:12,010
available because he was in the fourth and he was African American, so that

1118
01:10:12,010 –> 01:10:15,370
job wasn’t available. And then getting back on the train and coming back home and

1119
01:10:15,370 –> 01:10:19,114
having to eat his shoes coming back home. That’s what my grandmother’s

1120
01:10:19,255 –> 01:10:22,935
generation, who was the generation that went and fought Fourth War 2, was raised

1121
01:10:22,935 –> 01:10:26,350
with. That kind of poverty is

1122
01:10:26,350 –> 01:10:29,330
something that we can’t even comprehend.

1123
01:10:30,510 –> 01:10:33,790
Even with everything going on right now in our culture, that kind of chaos that

1124
01:10:33,790 –> 01:10:37,635
we have, the moral, social, political chaos, we still can’t comprehend that kind of

1125
01:10:37,635 –> 01:10:41,315
poverty. We just can’t. We wouldn’t even tolerate it now. There’d be riots in the

1126
01:10:41,315 –> 01:10:42,935
street if you had that kind of poverty.

1127
01:10:44,880 –> 01:10:48,640
Well, a person coming out of that is quite frankly, to

1128
01:10:48,640 –> 01:10:52,395
your point, like you said, iron sharpens iron, go to look at, oh, wait.

1129
01:10:52,395 –> 01:10:55,035
All I gotta do is go to Germany or go to Japan and kill a

1130
01:10:55,035 –> 01:10:58,715
bunch of people. Are you gonna give me 3 hots and a cot? Where do

1131
01:10:58,715 –> 01:11:02,380
I sign up? Where how how hard is this going to be? And, you know,

1132
01:11:02,380 –> 01:11:06,060
we’ve talked about, Peleliu and Okinawa on

1133
01:11:06,060 –> 01:11:09,900
this podcast. We’ve talked about, not only the invasion of

1134
01:11:09,900 –> 01:11:13,678
Normandy, but we talked about the Battle of the Bulge. We’ve talked about, like

1135
01:11:13,678 –> 01:11:17,287
I mentioned before, Colonel David Hackworth and his experiences in, in in

1136
01:11:17,287 –> 01:11:21,000
the Korean War. We’ve talked about Vietnam and we’ve talked about the Persian Gulf

1137
01:11:21,000 –> 01:11:24,700
War. And as the generations have gone on, that hardening,

1138
01:11:24,920 –> 01:11:28,375
I think, of the mind Tom your

1139
01:11:28,375 –> 01:11:32,215
point has shifted in America. And I

1140
01:11:32,215 –> 01:11:35,710
also think the knock on effect of us

1141
01:11:35,710 –> 01:11:39,470
understanding PTSD and mental health that came out of how Vietnam veterans

1142
01:11:39,470 –> 01:11:43,125
were treated, the the the the the sort of opposite effect.

1143
01:11:43,125 –> 01:11:46,965
There’s a whack a mole. Right? So veterans Vietnam veterans are treated in one

1144
01:11:46,965 –> 01:11:50,290
way, and that was the whack, but then the mole popped up in a different

1145
01:11:50,290 –> 01:11:54,050
spot. And so I think that civilians like myself and folks who

1146
01:11:54,050 –> 01:11:57,190
have not had those experiences are extremely careful now

1147
01:11:57,845 –> 01:12:01,385
to, disintermediate

1148
01:12:02,325 –> 01:12:06,165
the soldier from the policy. We’re very

1149
01:12:06,165 –> 01:12:09,900
careful to do that, I think. And we do it naturally now. We now

1150
01:12:09,900 –> 01:12:13,680
have 2 generations of people that just do that naturally. They don’t even well,

1151
01:12:13,740 –> 01:12:17,425
I think we’re crossing the Rubicon back in some sort of ways book to to

1152
01:12:17,425 –> 01:12:20,945
uniting those two things together, which I think is dangerous. But I think for a

1153
01:12:20,945 –> 01:12:24,085
while, we did. We separated the soldier fourth the policy. Like,

1154
01:12:24,480 –> 01:12:28,159
George Bush is over here to to paraphrase a ranger Jesan. George Bush made

1155
01:12:28,159 –> 01:12:30,800
his, made his thing and then this person had to go deal with it and

1156
01:12:30,800 –> 01:12:33,425
we could go deal with this person without having to talk about George Bush. We

1157
01:12:33,425 –> 01:12:35,345
don’t have to talk about him at all. We can just go deal with this

1158
01:12:35,345 –> 01:12:38,465
person Jesan had to deal with the thing. And I think that that’s an interesting

1159
01:12:38,465 –> 01:12:42,305
switch in our society and culture around mental health but also around

1160
01:12:42,305 –> 01:12:45,550
PTSD and how we deal with these deal with these areas.

1161
01:12:47,530 –> 01:12:50,510
You talked about the impact of

1162
01:12:52,025 –> 01:12:55,385
sort of the essays, well, the ways in

1163
01:12:55,385 –> 01:12:59,005
which time and distance sort of set up for people,

1164
01:13:00,400 –> 01:13:01,700
what they will do.

1165
01:13:04,160 –> 01:13:08,000
And you said any minute over 10 minutes is readers. You said what you said,

1166
01:13:08,000 –> 01:13:10,225
30% an increase in in survivability.

1167
01:13:12,765 –> 01:13:16,364
What are the if someone’s listening to this, what are the and

1168
01:13:16,364 –> 01:13:20,080
they maybe don’t know anything about Pecan Valley. They don’t know anything about what you

1169
01:13:20,080 –> 01:13:23,520
do. This is the first time they’re hearing about this. Maybe they’ve got somebody in

1170
01:13:23,520 –> 01:13:27,195
their house or they’ve got somebody in their life. They’ve seen some weird

1171
01:13:27,195 –> 01:13:30,255
things. What are the signs along that

1172
01:13:30,635 –> 01:13:34,420
path that they need to be paying attention to, that are just

1173
01:13:34,420 –> 01:13:37,240
common, right, that that they would just need to know?

1174
01:13:39,620 –> 01:13:43,325
We talked about for an individual who may experience a suicidal ideation

1175
01:13:43,465 –> 01:13:47,165
or someone who may be close to someone who’s gonna be experiencing suicidal

1176
01:13:47,305 –> 01:13:50,900
ideation. Okay. That’s a great distinction with a difference, I think, for

1177
01:13:50,900 –> 01:13:54,520
both of those, who close to and may be on the path to.

1178
01:13:54,955 –> 01:13:58,655
So, normally, and from from

1179
01:13:59,355 –> 01:14:03,034
what I’ve grown to learn over the years, I

1180
01:14:03,034 –> 01:14:06,720
have had a handful

1181
01:14:06,720 –> 01:14:10,400
of individuals. I could I couldn’t count them on one hand. The number of

1182
01:14:10,400 –> 01:14:13,300
people that I know, who were either

1183
01:14:13,975 –> 01:14:16,955
service members or veterans who,

1184
01:14:17,895 –> 01:14:21,415
died by suicide. Mhmm. It really comes down

1185
01:14:21,415 –> 01:14:21,915
to

1186
01:14:25,170 –> 01:14:28,610
to paying attention to the

1187
01:14:28,610 –> 01:14:32,405
individual and where they’re at and what they’re doing. But, normally, what

1188
01:14:32,405 –> 01:14:35,705
ends up happening that leads to that kind of

1189
01:14:35,765 –> 01:14:39,350
behavior of, you know,

1190
01:14:39,350 –> 01:14:42,950
the the I’m gonna, you know, I’m gonna I’m gonna

1191
01:14:42,950 –> 01:14:46,785
just end it. Right? Just f it. I’m just gonna just go. Yep.

1192
01:14:47,885 –> 01:14:51,105
Normally, there is some kind of breakdown of a relationship

1193
01:14:51,645 –> 01:14:55,490
somewhere. Okay. Right? So no it doesn’t just they don’t just be

1194
01:14:55,490 –> 01:14:59,330
like, oh, my life’s terrible. I’m just gonna go do this today. No. Normally, it’s

1195
01:14:59,330 –> 01:15:02,550
because there is there is a

1196
01:15:03,205 –> 01:15:06,985
network of support that is no longer there.

1197
01:15:07,445 –> 01:15:10,905
Right? So there was something that they were they were tethered onto

1198
01:15:11,770 –> 01:15:15,610
that they were leaning on, and it could be, you know, a marriage.

1199
01:15:15,610 –> 01:15:19,385
It could be, loss of

1200
01:15:19,385 –> 01:15:23,145
a child. It could be a number of things. Right? But, normally, there’s some, like,

1201
01:15:23,145 –> 01:15:26,125
significant loss Mhmm. Of

1202
01:15:26,930 –> 01:15:30,070
something, be it a relationship or be it, you know,

1203
01:15:30,610 –> 01:15:34,210
itself value, like, value, like, individually. I’m gonna go and tell you, like,

1204
01:15:34,210 –> 01:15:38,034
my biggest and hardest period of time

1205
01:15:38,415 –> 01:15:41,954
in the military was during transition from military

1206
01:15:42,494 –> 01:15:45,760
back into the civilian side. And I and I’m gonna go and I’m gonna go

1207
01:15:45,760 –> 01:15:49,280
and invite you. Like, we do, the Texas Veterans Commission

1208
01:15:49,280 –> 01:15:52,740
has a a course that is about

1209
01:15:52,915 –> 01:15:56,215
3 and a half hours long. It’s called military cultural

1210
01:15:56,275 –> 01:16:00,034
competency that I teach at least once a month in

1211
01:16:00,034 –> 01:16:03,120
Granbury. And I’d like to invite you to come and sit in on that so

1212
01:16:03,120 –> 01:16:06,560
you can get some more clarity on, you know, military

1213
01:16:06,560 –> 01:16:10,385
culture from start to finish. Because it’s very, very broad

1214
01:16:10,385 –> 01:16:14,225
stroke of everything that an individual goes through from the

1215
01:16:14,225 –> 01:16:17,920
day that they, sign their contract all the way

1216
01:16:17,920 –> 01:16:21,680
to the day that they’re applying for VA benefits. You know, a very

1217
01:16:21,680 –> 01:16:25,255
very quick down and dirty broad stroke, and it it’s

1218
01:16:25,255 –> 01:16:28,615
normally about 2 and a half, 3 hours long. It used to be 8 hours,

1219
01:16:28,615 –> 01:16:31,595
but it’s been condensed to make it a little bit more palatable

1220
01:16:33,180 –> 01:16:36,780
for people who have no military background whatsoever. And it

1221
01:16:36,874 –> 01:16:40,705
Sorrells starts with, like, who here has got military experience

1222
01:16:40,705 –> 01:16:44,485
personally? Who has military parents? Who has military cousins

1223
01:16:44,625 –> 01:16:48,280
and family, distant family leaders, those kinds of things. And it’s they’re

1224
01:16:48,280 –> 01:16:51,180
trying to draw on some of the military experience they have. But

1225
01:16:51,960 –> 01:16:55,655
from my darkest time when was during

1226
01:16:55,655 –> 01:16:59,275
transition, when I went from having value and purpose,

1227
01:17:00,295 –> 01:17:03,355
doing a job, to all of the sudden,

1228
01:17:04,630 –> 01:17:08,470
no purpose anymore. Right? So and it basically and that’s

1229
01:17:08,470 –> 01:17:12,310
just my own personal side of it of it because, I mean, I ended

1230
01:17:12,310 –> 01:17:14,035
up, very,

1231
01:17:16,335 –> 01:17:20,015
I was very upset with how my transition went when

1232
01:17:20,015 –> 01:17:23,750
it when it occurred because I was actually trying to develop

1233
01:17:23,750 –> 01:17:27,590
and grow. I was I found out that at 18 and a

1234
01:17:27,590 –> 01:17:30,970
half years of military service that I actually

1235
01:17:31,110 –> 01:17:34,435
possess a a medical birth defect,

1236
01:17:34,655 –> 01:17:38,415
unbeknownst to me, that I should have never been allowed to join the

1237
01:17:38,415 –> 01:17:41,950
military. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. So it’s kinda like not that I’m

1238
01:17:41,950 –> 01:17:45,790
missing a kidney or anything, but it’s on that level. Sure. Right? But if it

1239
01:17:45,790 –> 01:17:46,801
had been caught during my in processing, they would have been like, oh, you gotta

1240
01:17:46,801 –> 01:17:50,195
go because Yeah. You can’t do this. Say 18a half

1241
01:17:51,135 –> 01:17:54,959
is because at 18 years, I had developed an issue

1242
01:17:54,959 –> 01:17:58,360
that I went I say 18a half is because at 18 years, I had developed

1243
01:17:58,360 –> 01:18:01,080
an issue that I went to the doctor on. He’s like, we don’t know what

1244
01:18:01,080 –> 01:18:04,920
this is. Mhmm. We’re gonna send you over to general surgery. They sent me

1245
01:18:04,940 –> 01:18:08,715
Tom dermatology. Dermatology sent me back to general surgery. Sent me to cardiovascular.

1246
01:18:09,015 –> 01:18:12,695
CardioVascular is like, oh, I I think I know what this

1247
01:18:12,695 –> 01:18:16,440
is, but I’m not the I’m not the guy to really diagnose it. You

1248
01:18:16,440 –> 01:18:20,119
need to go talk to a vascular surgeon. Mhmm. So I

1249
01:18:20,119 –> 01:18:23,885
went and I talked to a guy, and he’s pretty much like, hey, man. You

1250
01:18:23,885 –> 01:18:26,445
know, what what’s going on? I said, well, I just need you to sign off

1251
01:18:26,445 –> 01:18:29,245
on this so that I can go to Sears School so that I can get

1252
01:18:29,245 –> 01:18:32,970
promoted next year to sergeant Major because I’m trying

1253
01:18:32,970 –> 01:18:36,490
to advance my career. Right? I was the 1st sergeant trying to make the next

1254
01:18:36,490 –> 01:18:40,014
grade, and the only school that I did not have and the only

1255
01:18:40,014 –> 01:18:43,715
experience I did not have was SEER School, which is essentially that’s the POW,

1256
01:18:44,255 –> 01:18:48,050
Camp Slappy turning, you know, where you go through the the what

1257
01:18:48,050 –> 01:18:51,409
happens if you how do you do or respond, or what goes through when you

1258
01:18:51,409 –> 01:18:54,449
do POW training? I don’t know what goes on there because I didn’t actually get

1259
01:18:54,449 –> 01:18:58,275
to go. Right. Without that, the doc said, well,

1260
01:18:58,275 –> 01:19:01,155
you know, I got some good news or bad news. Good news is is you’re

1261
01:19:01,155 –> 01:19:04,730
gonna retire at 20 years. I was just like, that’s the good

1262
01:19:04,730 –> 01:19:08,190
news? Yeah. What’s the bad news? What’s the bad news?

1263
01:19:08,409 –> 01:19:12,114
Bad news is is you cannot jump out of air wear

1264
01:19:12,114 –> 01:19:15,955
body armor anymore. You can’t, you can’t shoot a a

1265
01:19:15,955 –> 01:19:19,679
rifle in your shoulder anymore. You can’t, you can’t

1266
01:19:19,679 –> 01:19:23,280
do combatives anymore. You really need to stop

1267
01:19:23,280 –> 01:19:27,095
lifting heavy weights, like, specifically no more

1268
01:19:27,095 –> 01:19:30,935
push ups, no more bench press, no more Wow. Anything like that. Then

1269
01:19:30,935 –> 01:19:33,969
I was just like, are you serious? What I was like, what are you? That

1270
01:19:33,969 –> 01:19:37,810
that that can’t be the deal. Right. What he’s like, well so

1271
01:19:37,810 –> 01:19:41,510
I got diagnosed with, what I thought was a birthmark

1272
01:19:41,745 –> 01:19:44,405
on my chest that kinda looks like varicose veins.

1273
01:19:45,585 –> 01:19:49,265
I got diagnosed at 18 and a half years with what’s called

1274
01:19:49,265 –> 01:19:52,840
an AVM. It’s arterial venous

1275
01:19:52,900 –> 01:19:56,739
malformation. So this Okay. Venous malform it’s essentially

1276
01:19:56,739 –> 01:20:00,360
the varicose veins, and Sorrells they’re just venous malformations.

1277
01:20:01,055 –> 01:20:04,735
Yeah. Mine’s unique because it’s on my trunk, like, specifically,

1278
01:20:04,735 –> 01:20:08,335
it’s on my on my right pec. Yep. And, it

1279
01:20:08,415 –> 01:20:12,239
and it’s being fed by an artery. So Okay.

1280
01:20:12,679 –> 01:20:15,719
If I’d gotten hit in the chest too hard or if I got, you know,

1281
01:20:15,719 –> 01:20:19,295
an opening shock without a parachute harness comes down and it’s, like, quite

1282
01:20:19,295 –> 01:20:22,815
over it and, you know, the rucksack straps come in, the pocket of the

1283
01:20:22,815 –> 01:20:26,335
shoulder with the with the m fourth 2 40 or whatever I’m

1284
01:20:26,335 –> 01:20:30,080
shooting. I mean, if I had ruptured that feeding vein

1285
01:20:30,380 –> 01:20:34,060
to this AVL, which is literally, like, just under the

1286
01:20:34,060 –> 01:20:37,855
skin, Like, it just barely pops out under under my

1287
01:20:37,855 –> 01:20:41,395
my pec muscle. It’s just like if you had ruptured

1288
01:20:41,455 –> 01:20:45,300
that that artery during any of these activities over the

1289
01:20:45,300 –> 01:20:49,060
last eighteen and a half years, you would potentially bleed out internally in

1290
01:20:49,060 –> 01:20:52,580
minutes. And so that’s when I my

1291
01:20:52,580 –> 01:20:56,405
darkest days kinda fell on me. So I was like, well, I think I’ve cheated

1292
01:20:56,405 –> 01:20:59,865
death enough. Yeah. I’m gonna go ahead and retire.

1293
01:21:00,085 –> 01:21:03,700
So, but being told that you can’t that you can’t

1294
01:21:03,700 –> 01:21:07,460
jump out of airplanes anymore when you’re, when you’re, you

1295
01:21:07,460 –> 01:21:11,155
know, a jump master in an airborne unit, if you can’t jump, you

1296
01:21:11,155 –> 01:21:14,915
can’t jump master. If you can’t jump master, you can’t lead paratroopers. So

1297
01:21:14,915 –> 01:21:18,500
it kinda you know, basically, I had to, you know, I had to roll it

1298
01:21:18,500 –> 01:21:22,340
in. So, that was when I went from from

1299
01:21:22,340 –> 01:21:26,155
having, you know, growth and development and a plan, and I was gonna,

1300
01:21:26,155 –> 01:21:29,135
you know, I was gonna make sergeant major, and I was gonna stay in 26,

1301
01:21:29,275 –> 01:21:33,035
27 Jesan, and I was gonna, you know, retire, you

1302
01:21:33,035 –> 01:21:36,739
know, between 27 30 years of service depending on how high up I

1303
01:21:36,739 –> 01:21:40,199
got. Went to being

1304
01:21:41,114 –> 01:21:44,635
Bye. Yeah. We’re done we’re done with you. So, like, here here’s your

1305
01:21:44,635 –> 01:21:48,394
retirement check. Here’s your here’s your VA benefits. You know, go

1306
01:21:48,394 –> 01:21:52,110
have a good life. Do whatever. And I’m just like, what

1307
01:21:52,110 –> 01:21:55,630
will I do now? I don’t know what to do. Like, what can I

1308
01:21:55,630 –> 01:21:59,165
do? So it it just really was a hard

1309
01:21:59,165 –> 01:22:02,845
transition for me seeing that I wasn’t ready

1310
01:22:02,845 –> 01:22:06,639
to take a knee, face out, and drink water, and then, you know, find something

1311
01:22:06,639 –> 01:22:10,239
else. It was I was pretty much retired. Mhmm. I did

1312
01:22:10,239 –> 01:22:14,000
not choose literature than if I continue to do it, I was gonna be riding

1313
01:22:14,000 –> 01:22:17,385
the desk. Right. Up at fourth special forces

1314
01:22:17,385 –> 01:22:20,865
command doing, you know, school with NCO or something like

1315
01:22:21,225 –> 01:22:24,125
this is just something that was not fulfilling. Right? So

1316
01:22:26,429 –> 01:22:30,270
I think it really comes down to, like, that thought of, well, my life

1317
01:22:30,270 –> 01:22:33,945
is over. Right? Because I’m transitioning, and I

1318
01:22:33,945 –> 01:22:37,545
don’t have a plan. I don’t know it’s basically the unknown is is in front

1319
01:22:37,545 –> 01:22:41,385
of me. You know, when you get the rug pulled out from underneath you and

1320
01:22:41,466 –> 01:22:45,300
fourth what you thought was, gonna happen is

1321
01:22:45,300 –> 01:22:48,440
no longer plausible or gonna happen. You know? When things change

1322
01:22:48,820 –> 01:22:52,425
abruptly and you don’t

1323
01:22:52,485 –> 01:22:56,244
see any light at the end of the tunnel, you pretty much you’re

1324
01:22:56,244 –> 01:22:59,840
just like, okay. Well, screw it. Now what do I do? That’s Right. I

1325
01:22:59,898 –> 01:23:03,680
turning to alcohol heavily. You know? Mhmm. And that’s where

1326
01:23:03,760 –> 01:23:07,485
that’s what I turned to for a number of years until, you know, I

1327
01:23:07,485 –> 01:23:11,265
was seeing therapists. I was, you know, on antidepressants

1328
01:23:11,485 –> 01:23:14,385
and medications, and I would you know, I went through, like, 3 different

1329
01:23:15,330 –> 01:23:19,170
therapists and probably 4 different medications, and, you know, I’ve

1330
01:23:19,170 –> 01:23:22,630
been sober now for 2 years and some change. February 27,

1331
01:23:22,850 –> 01:23:26,685
2020 2. I gave up alcohol. I gave up social media. I

1332
01:23:26,685 –> 01:23:29,645
gave up caffeine. I gave up a whole bunch of things all at once just

1333
01:23:29,645 –> 01:23:32,929
to just to start over and hit reset. Yep.

1334
01:23:33,790 –> 01:23:37,469
So and it was it was probably the best decision that I ever

1335
01:23:37,469 –> 01:23:41,155
made was putting down alcohol and just hurting that off because

1336
01:23:41,155 –> 01:23:44,995
that allowed me to actually deal with the traumas

1337
01:23:44,995 –> 01:23:48,720
that I have. Right? And not just the military ones, but all the way back

1338
01:23:48,800 –> 01:23:52,400
to childhood traumas. Every bit of them. You know? So and I

1339
01:23:52,400 –> 01:23:56,135
probably have had more growth in

1340
01:23:56,135 –> 01:23:59,574
development in the last 2 years that I’ve been sober than I had in the

1341
01:23:59,574 –> 01:24:03,335
previous 20 Yep. In the military just because of

1342
01:24:03,335 –> 01:24:07,070
clarity of mind and and having that,

1343
01:24:07,469 –> 01:24:11,230
but and and doing a job like what I’m doing now, you know,

1344
01:24:11,230 –> 01:24:14,755
it it comes down to I really love what I’m doing. I

1345
01:24:14,755 –> 01:24:18,595
really do have a passion for what I’m doing. And I’m really and I

1346
01:24:18,595 –> 01:24:21,635
feel like, you know, it’s, like, my calling kinda. Like, this is what I’m called

1347
01:24:21,635 –> 01:24:24,739
to do. Mhmm. Because I can actually, you know

1348
01:24:25,380 –> 01:24:29,159
I’m good at it. Right? So it it just turns into

1349
01:24:29,780 –> 01:24:32,760
one of my when I left service,

1350
01:24:34,795 –> 01:24:38,555
I was given I had a guy that hired me on. He was,

1351
01:24:38,875 –> 01:24:42,335
he was the guy that started his own VA claims consulting firm

1352
01:24:42,790 –> 01:24:46,630
for profit, which we’ll get into later. I don’t recommend anybody go and

1353
01:24:46,630 –> 01:24:49,210
use a for profit company at all.

1354
01:24:50,385 –> 01:24:53,685
There are there are plenty of free services out there, but you can,

1355
01:24:53,985 –> 01:24:57,505
you know, talk about that another day. It just kinda turns into this guy

1356
01:24:57,505 –> 01:25:01,219
was a retired, you know, officer, lieutenant

1357
01:25:01,219 –> 01:25:04,980
colonel, and he basically said that probably the best advice that I

1358
01:25:04,980 –> 01:25:08,500
ever heard in regards to transition that

1359
01:25:08,500 –> 01:25:11,925
really got me focused on stop

1360
01:25:11,925 –> 01:25:15,285
dwelling dwelling in the darkness of you no longer have

1361
01:25:15,285 –> 01:25:18,665
purpose or, you know, your vision is completely gone,

1362
01:25:19,710 –> 01:25:22,830
of what you wanted to do. You know, just get a new vision. And it’s

1363
01:25:22,830 –> 01:25:26,590
basically when you transition out, and the and

1364
01:25:26,590 –> 01:25:29,675
the military is done with you, I don’t care what branch you’re in. And this

1365
01:25:29,675 –> 01:25:33,275
is something I would tell to any single service member that’s currently

1366
01:25:33,275 –> 01:25:36,895
serving active duty fourth reservist or national guard was

1367
01:25:37,369 –> 01:25:40,969
that machine is gonna continue to run after you’re

1368
01:25:40,969 –> 01:25:44,570
gone without issue. It is bigger than you are, and it

1369
01:25:44,570 –> 01:25:48,245
does not need you as bad as you think it needs

1370
01:25:48,245 –> 01:25:51,545
you. So when you do

1371
01:25:52,005 –> 01:25:55,599
decide to transition, you’re gonna have 3 options to pick

1372
01:25:55,599 –> 01:25:59,360
from. And you pick 2 that you

1373
01:25:59,360 –> 01:26:03,075
want and just know you’re gonna get the opposite of the third and be

1374
01:26:03,075 –> 01:26:06,375
satisfied with it. Right? Mhmm. So those those three options

1375
01:26:06,435 –> 01:26:09,815
are location, job satisfaction,

1376
01:26:10,275 –> 01:26:14,000
or money. So you work where you wanna work and be live where

1377
01:26:14,000 –> 01:26:17,680
you wanna live. Doing a job you love, you’re gonna get paid

1378
01:26:17,680 –> 01:26:21,445
garbage money. Right? But if you wanna if you wanna do a job you

1379
01:26:21,445 –> 01:26:24,725
love and make the money you wanna make, you’re gonna do it in a place

1380
01:26:24,725 –> 01:26:28,160
you don’t wanna be. Right? So it just comes down to you pick the 2

1381
01:26:28,160 –> 01:26:31,920
that you want, you get the opposite of the 3rd. And it it really just

1382
01:26:31,920 –> 01:26:34,885
comes down to when,

1383
01:26:35,744 –> 01:26:39,344
doing what I’m doing. I’m I’m living where I wanna live. You know, I’m in

1384
01:26:39,344 –> 01:26:42,565
the Hill Country of Texas. You know, just a little bit south of Granbury.

1385
01:26:43,090 –> 01:26:46,610
Beautiful town, dinosaur capital Mhmm. Texas, Glen

1386
01:26:46,610 –> 01:26:50,450
Rose. And, I mean, it’s beautiful here. So this

1387
01:26:50,450 –> 01:26:54,135
is this is where I wanna be. Right? Yep. This is the this is the

1388
01:26:54,135 –> 01:26:57,895
kinda atmosphere that I wanna raise my kids in. Right? Right. Small

1389
01:26:57,895 –> 01:27:00,315
town, great school district, great community,

1390
01:27:01,500 –> 01:27:04,800
great weather, and great people. Right?

1391
01:27:05,340 –> 01:27:09,054
And then the job that I’m doing is by far probably

1392
01:27:09,054 –> 01:27:12,435
the best job that I’ve ever found. Right? Just

1393
01:27:12,495 –> 01:27:16,195
being able to impact so many different people

1394
01:27:16,255 –> 01:27:19,830
towards goodness. Right? Because that’s really what I’m

1395
01:27:19,830 –> 01:27:23,350
doing. I’m taking the veterans who are in a despair and

1396
01:27:23,350 –> 01:27:26,570
turmoil, and I’m providing them access Jesan the resources

1397
01:27:26,790 –> 01:27:29,574
that are gonna mitigate and allow them to

1398
01:27:30,275 –> 01:27:33,955
recover and recoup and regain control over, you know,

1399
01:27:33,955 –> 01:27:37,700
their future again, be it Mhmm. Through health care benefits fourth

1400
01:27:37,700 –> 01:27:41,220
education benefits or disability benefits or mental

1401
01:27:41,220 –> 01:27:44,520
health, access to to good mental health

1402
01:27:45,715 –> 01:27:49,395
treatments. Just those those things that I can and and and that, I

1403
01:27:49,395 –> 01:27:53,075
do way more than just that. I mean, there are several other categories that that

1404
01:27:53,075 –> 01:27:56,679
I cover, but just being that

1405
01:27:56,679 –> 01:28:00,520
that person that is the go to to take care

1406
01:28:00,520 –> 01:28:04,025
of somebody who I identify

1407
01:28:04,025 –> 01:28:07,864
with. Mhmm. Alright? So this comes down just like I

1408
01:28:07,864 –> 01:28:11,245
said, I’m I’m teach, coach, and mentor veterans,

1409
01:28:11,800 –> 01:28:15,480
service members, and families like I did my own soldiers. So

1410
01:28:15,800 –> 01:28:19,340
Right. Just basically get them where they need to go. But the transition

1411
01:28:19,480 –> 01:28:21,855
piece is really what I think

1412
01:28:23,275 –> 01:28:27,114
most people come out of the military. They don’t

1413
01:28:27,114 –> 01:28:30,010
have if they don’t have a plan and it turns

1414
01:28:30,869 –> 01:28:34,389
into loss of something Mhmm. It only

1415
01:28:34,389 –> 01:28:38,165
starts pushing them towards the what is called the coping mechanisms.

1416
01:28:38,385 –> 01:28:41,685
Could be anything from alcohol Tom drugs

1417
01:28:42,785 –> 01:28:46,559
to risky behaviors to whatever. Could be a number of different things

1418
01:28:46,559 –> 01:28:50,320
that they do in order to, fill the

1419
01:28:50,320 –> 01:28:53,599
void is what I like to call it. Hey. What are you filling the void

1420
01:28:53,599 –> 01:28:57,395
with that is that that you have inside? Right?

1421
01:28:57,395 –> 01:29:00,915
You gotta find something healthy to fill that void with. Well, doing this job is

1422
01:29:00,915 –> 01:29:04,700
what’s filling that void for me. So, I that’s

1423
01:29:04,700 –> 01:29:08,480
why I enjoy doing it as much. So that is

1424
01:29:09,925 –> 01:29:13,685
that is that reflects something that, not only have I heard

1425
01:29:13,685 –> 01:29:17,380
before, but that I that that I know just from even

1426
01:29:17,380 –> 01:29:20,740
working with individuals that I’ve worked with, you know, when I coach, you know, in

1427
01:29:20,740 –> 01:29:24,340
my consultancy, we coach the much put upon middle

1428
01:29:24,340 –> 01:29:27,935
manager. And when they lose purpose, when they lose mission, when they

1429
01:29:27,935 –> 01:29:31,295
lose the vision, or when that’s no longer articulated for

1430
01:29:31,295 –> 01:29:33,875
them, then there is a long

1431
01:29:34,690 –> 01:29:38,370
decline, a long drop, and and then

1432
01:29:38,370 –> 01:29:42,130
failures of leadership begin to compound, and then it becomes a whole it

1433
01:29:42,130 –> 01:29:45,885
becomes a whole mess. Right? The whole dominoes begin to fall. And sometimes even

1434
01:29:45,885 –> 01:29:48,864
those dominoes fall into, into their personal lives.

1435
01:29:51,460 –> 01:29:54,260
That idea of having a mission, that idea of having a purpose is I want

1436
01:29:54,260 –> 01:29:57,460
to turn the corner here as we get ready to close. And I want to

1437
01:29:57,460 –> 01:30:00,845
talk about you know, leadership. And I wanna talk about sort of how

1438
01:30:01,225 –> 01:30:04,985
you see how how for you leadership linked into that

1439
01:30:04,985 –> 01:30:08,730
purpose admission. Now that’s clearly something you’ve been doing and studying

1440
01:30:08,730 –> 01:30:11,879
and thinking about for a long, long Tom,

1441
01:30:12,410 –> 01:30:16,030
but now it’s become closer to the core of your purpose and your mission.

1442
01:30:16,205 –> 01:30:19,425
So talk with us a little bit about how how that happened.

1443
01:30:20,045 –> 01:30:23,200
And here’s a just anywhere book podcast. I’m gonna

1444
01:30:23,760 –> 01:30:26,900
gonna ask you the book question too. I’m gonna wrap it into this as well.

1445
01:30:27,200 –> 01:30:30,880
But, what are some books you would recommend for folks to to read that are

1446
01:30:30,880 –> 01:30:34,165
your favorite books that are around leadership? Okay.

1447
01:30:36,065 –> 01:30:39,745
Two parts on that one. Yeah. Sorrells, I’ll answer the book question

1448
01:30:39,917 –> 01:30:43,430
Jesan. Yeah. Yeah. Because I I can go in-depth on it. Okay.

1449
01:30:43,430 –> 01:30:46,870
So the first part then from a

1450
01:30:46,870 –> 01:30:50,695
leadership perspective, I’m doing

1451
01:30:50,695 –> 01:30:53,895
what I’m doing and how it kinda translates over. So here’s the deal. I have

1452
01:30:53,895 –> 01:30:57,435
27,000 plus veterans in my 6 counties that I cover.

1453
01:30:57,550 –> 01:31:01,390
Mhmm. That’s that’s estimated roundabout plus or minus, you

1454
01:31:01,390 –> 01:31:04,130
know, a1000 27,000. Mhmm.

1455
01:31:06,195 –> 01:31:09,635
Knowing what I know from networks and my my

1456
01:31:09,635 –> 01:31:12,935
work in civil affairs and doing, you know, counterterrorism

1457
01:31:13,235 –> 01:31:16,810
operations and humanitarian assistance over in the Philippines.

1458
01:31:17,030 –> 01:31:20,170
My my ultimate job there was

1459
01:31:20,630 –> 01:31:24,425
mapping the human terrain. Right? Who’s who? Who’s in power?

1460
01:31:24,425 –> 01:31:27,805
Where are the vacuums? Who where’s the nepotism? Who’s the

1461
01:31:28,025 –> 01:31:31,360
who’s the behind the scenes power broker, this and that? So

1462
01:31:31,579 –> 01:31:35,179
I’ve essentially taken what I did while I was in the military, and I’ve applied

1463
01:31:35,179 –> 01:31:38,480
it to my 6 counties. And now here’s the deal. I don’t need 27,000

1464
01:31:39,099 –> 01:31:42,465
veterans to know who I am or I am. Right. Because

1465
01:31:42,605 –> 01:31:46,445
27,000 probably aren’t gonna need me. Right. That one one or

1466
01:31:46,445 –> 01:31:50,060
2% of the veterans who are struggling are probably

1467
01:31:50,060 –> 01:31:53,200
gonna be the ones that are needing me. So,

1468
01:31:54,140 –> 01:31:57,745
I focus, on the community

1469
01:31:57,745 –> 01:32:01,285
leadership. Like, those individuals within the

1470
01:32:01,285 –> 01:32:04,804
community who are faith based leaders, business

1471
01:32:04,804 –> 01:32:07,980
owners, council members, first

1472
01:32:08,235 –> 01:32:12,060
readers. Those types of individuals are the ones that

1473
01:32:12,060 –> 01:32:15,375
I go and I meet with and I shake hands with. I get business cards.

1474
01:32:15,375 –> 01:32:19,135
I build relationships with those individuals. That’s why you see me

1475
01:32:19,135 –> 01:32:22,630
at the that’s why you see me at the, you know, the

1476
01:32:22,630 –> 01:32:26,470
Friday events for the Sure. Chamber of Commerce type stuff. You know? And I

1477
01:32:26,470 –> 01:32:30,310
do that across 6 counties. Right? So Right. It it just comes down to I

1478
01:32:30,310 –> 01:32:33,695
don’t need 27 7,000 people to know who I am. I need those

1479
01:32:34,474 –> 01:32:38,255
250 specific individuals and positions of leadership that

1480
01:32:38,740 –> 01:32:41,860
those veterans are gonna turning in a time of crisis to know who I am

1481
01:32:41,860 –> 01:32:45,640
so that they can pass them to me because I’m gonna solve the problem.

1482
01:32:45,835 –> 01:32:48,315
Right. Right? So it just turns in and then at the end of the day,

1483
01:32:48,315 –> 01:32:51,835
I’m not even really the one that’s solving the problem. I’m the one that knows

1484
01:32:51,835 –> 01:32:55,054
where all I hold all the keys to all the doors to

1485
01:32:55,460 –> 01:32:59,219
walk them down the hall to say, what are you looking for? Education? Alright. Come

1486
01:32:59,219 –> 01:33:01,580
on. This is door number 3. Let’s go on down a couple more. Okay. Here

1487
01:33:01,580 –> 01:33:05,015
you go. Alright. What else do you need? Oh, okay. You need,

1488
01:33:05,655 –> 01:33:08,675
access to health care. Okay. Cool. Let’s go on down. We’re gonna knock on Tom.

1489
01:33:09,095 –> 01:33:12,750
We’re gonna knock on VA. We’re gonna go down and Tom to, you know, wherever

1490
01:33:12,750 –> 01:33:16,450
we gotta go. So it just turns into my my,

1491
01:33:17,070 –> 01:33:20,910
leadership style and what I did, and being

1492
01:33:20,910 –> 01:33:24,715
the face and the handshake of special operations really put me

1493
01:33:24,715 –> 01:33:28,465
in a position to build those relationships within my community Mhmm.

1494
01:33:28,715 –> 01:33:31,990
To establish, maintain, and grow

1495
01:33:32,610 –> 01:33:36,130
my network so that I can be the one that they’re

1496
01:33:36,130 –> 01:33:39,665
calling when it’s, you know, to mitigate that crisis that

1497
01:33:39,665 –> 01:33:43,105
veteran has. And I mean, I’ve done everything from Lorraine, you know, I’ve

1498
01:33:43,105 –> 01:33:46,630
connected a surviving spouse to a nonprofit in Crowley that

1499
01:33:48,710 –> 01:33:52,310
put a $30,000 roof on her home that was, like, completely dilapidated. Right? Right. All

1500
01:33:52,310 –> 01:33:56,115
the way to I’ve got a Tom building a ramp tomorrow for

1501
01:33:56,115 –> 01:33:59,475
a veteran on hospice who’s got 6 to 12 months to live. I’m

1502
01:33:59,475 –> 01:34:02,995
putting a small porch in a deck, you know, a small deck in a

1503
01:34:02,995 –> 01:34:06,080
ramp for him and his wife so that she can just take him outside for

1504
01:34:06,080 –> 01:34:09,840
fresh air on, you know, on nice days. So it just really comes there’s

1505
01:34:09,840 –> 01:34:13,215
a plethora of things that I have available to do, and I don’t do it

1506
01:34:13,215 –> 01:34:16,195
all myself. That’s never the case. It’s always

1507
01:34:17,054 –> 01:34:19,795
partnership. It’s always enterprise. It’s always,

1508
01:34:20,974 –> 01:34:24,820
you know, bringing those entities together through

1509
01:34:26,240 –> 01:34:29,594
the, what do you call it, deliberate

1510
01:34:31,094 –> 01:34:34,715
intent Mhmm. Like, leadership approach.

1511
01:34:34,775 –> 01:34:38,540
Right? Hey. I’m I’m here. I always introduce myself as, hey. I’m the I am

1512
01:34:38,540 –> 01:34:42,300
your veteran peer service coordinator certified by the Texas Veterans Commission.

1513
01:34:42,300 –> 01:34:45,739
How can I help you today? Like, I’m I belong to

1514
01:34:45,739 –> 01:34:49,585
you. Like, not I’m not part of the system. Writers? So

1515
01:34:49,585 –> 01:34:53,265
I’m part I’m just another gear in the in the in the machine

1516
01:34:53,265 –> 01:34:56,645
to kinda help you get to where you need to go. So as far as,

1517
01:34:57,350 –> 01:35:01,190
as far as books go, I’ll then answer the question

1518
01:35:01,190 –> 01:35:03,945
number 1 for you fairly well. So and I know we’re getting to the the

1519
01:35:03,945 –> 01:35:07,565
end here. As far as some some books, when in regards

1520
01:35:07,625 –> 01:35:10,445
to leadership, I would say that

1521
01:35:12,230 –> 01:35:15,290
some ones that that I’ve read multiple times,

1522
01:35:16,390 –> 01:35:20,105
a couple of them were recommended by mentors

1523
01:35:20,105 –> 01:35:23,804
of mine, and then the one of them recommended by my wife

1524
01:35:23,864 –> 01:35:27,324
to help me that I’ve read in just last year,

1525
01:35:28,510 –> 01:35:32,030
I would say Mindset by doctor Carol

1526
01:35:32,030 –> 01:35:35,790
Dweck. Yep. Really good book

1527
01:35:35,790 –> 01:35:39,295
with if you want to expand your

1528
01:35:39,295 –> 01:35:42,895
understanding of why people continue to do the same thing over and over

1529
01:35:42,895 –> 01:35:46,620
again and never move podcast. Turning, you know, they just

1530
01:35:46,780 –> 01:35:50,380
they’re just stagnant. Then you really gotta go and and and,

1531
01:35:51,100 –> 01:35:54,175
get that book. It is on audiobook. Most of the books I do are audio

1532
01:35:54,335 –> 01:35:57,135
because I drive all day, and I listen to them in the car, you know.

1533
01:35:57,135 –> 01:36:00,655
Yep. So, so it turns into yeah. The

1534
01:36:00,655 –> 01:36:04,380
Mindset’s a good one by doctor Carol Dweck. Another one that

1535
01:36:04,380 –> 01:36:07,980
I’ve read I read it at probably once a

1536
01:36:07,980 –> 01:36:11,745
year every year because there’s always a new edition coming out,

1537
01:36:12,705 –> 01:36:16,465
is a book called Influence. Yes. The Psychology of

1538
01:36:16,465 –> 01:36:19,825
Persuasion. Yes. Oh, you did call that. You know? By doctor Robert

1539
01:36:19,825 –> 01:36:23,570
Cialdini. That was that book. What I read it for the

1540
01:36:23,570 –> 01:36:27,010
first time as a staff sergeant on a CA

1541
01:36:27,010 –> 01:36:30,755
team before my first deployment to the Philippines. Mhmm.

1542
01:36:30,755 –> 01:36:34,594
And I’m gonna tell you that book was money in the

1543
01:36:34,594 –> 01:36:38,114
bank when it came to what I was doing on

1544
01:36:38,114 –> 01:36:41,150
those islands over in the Southern Philippines on

1545
01:36:41,850 –> 01:36:45,450
leveraging influence within, you know,

1546
01:36:45,450 –> 01:36:48,795
that network of people and how to

1547
01:36:49,735 –> 01:36:53,175
how to actually because, I mean, my job was essentially, you

1548
01:36:53,175 –> 01:36:56,840
know, complete my mission’s mission and intent, my commander’s

1549
01:36:56,840 –> 01:37:00,600
mission intent, and get as much as I could for with

1550
01:37:00,600 –> 01:37:04,215
giving it the least amount possible into

1551
01:37:04,215 –> 01:37:07,175
these regions. And, I mean, I we spent a lot of money in the Philippines

1552
01:37:07,175 –> 01:37:10,935
too. I mean, most of it was USAID money, but we did spend,

1553
01:37:10,935 –> 01:37:14,320
you know, taxpayer money, you know, building schools, roads,

1554
01:37:14,320 –> 01:37:18,080
hospitals, those kinds of things. But, you know, money

1555
01:37:18,080 –> 01:37:20,955
is a good motivator for a lot of folks, but that’s not always what it

1556
01:37:20,955 –> 01:37:24,575
is because just they don’t they don’t take money from just anybody.

1557
01:37:24,715 –> 01:37:28,530
They don’t like you. You’re not one of them,

1558
01:37:28,530 –> 01:37:31,090
then they, you know, then they’re not gonna be the one to be part of

1559
01:37:31,090 –> 01:37:34,770
it, but it just comes down to, influence was a good

1560
01:37:34,770 –> 01:37:38,605
one. Another one that’s a small read that’s

1561
01:37:38,605 –> 01:37:42,145
real recent that I’ve I’ve just picked up, probably about

1562
01:37:42,205 –> 01:37:45,860
6 months ago. Small little book. I picked it

1563
01:37:45,860 –> 01:37:49,139
up at Walmart on, like, one of those, where they where you can go and

1564
01:37:49,139 –> 01:37:52,820
you pick up the Bibles. Oh, yeah. Over from the book out. It’s a

1565
01:37:52,820 –> 01:37:56,565
book called How Tom Deal with Toxic People by by

1566
01:37:56,565 –> 01:38:00,005
Gregory l Jantz, the doctor doctor

1567
01:38:00,005 –> 01:38:03,700
Jantz, and is also, coauthored with, Keith Wall.

1568
01:38:03,940 –> 01:38:07,240
But, this really helped me understand,

1569
01:38:09,540 –> 01:38:13,205
some of the people that I’ve had in my life that I

1570
01:38:13,205 –> 01:38:17,045
thought were, like, some of my biggest supporters, which actually, in

1571
01:38:17,045 –> 01:38:20,645
the end, they were not. Mhmm. But but how to deal with toxic

1572
01:38:20,645 –> 01:38:24,170
people if you are in

1573
01:38:24,550 –> 01:38:28,330
a subordinate if you’re a subordinate and you are dealing with

1574
01:38:28,630 –> 01:38:31,985
what seems to just be absolute

1575
01:38:32,045 –> 01:38:35,885
horrible people. Read that book and get some

1576
01:38:35,885 –> 01:38:39,699
perspective on how to deal with them. Right? And it comes not just and

1577
01:38:39,699 –> 01:38:43,060
it’s not just for, like, work related. So I was talking about, like, relationships. Right?

1578
01:38:43,060 –> 01:38:46,739
Like, how to deal with talking people relationships, you know, and how to

1579
01:38:46,739 –> 01:38:50,565
deal with, the different types of

1580
01:38:50,565 –> 01:38:54,405
personalities that are toxic and being able to identify those things where, you know,

1581
01:38:54,456 –> 01:38:58,050
fourth anything from gaslighting to, you know, drama queen, crisis

1582
01:38:58,050 –> 01:39:01,650
king type scenario stuff. So it just comes down to the those

1583
01:39:01,650 –> 01:39:05,235
books are really good. Some fun

1584
01:39:05,235 –> 01:39:09,074
reads, and some ones that I haven’t picked up in a while,

1585
01:39:09,074 –> 01:39:10,534
but I probably need to revisit.

1586
01:39:13,270 –> 01:39:16,869
Was it the Mark Munson, subtle art of not giving a

1587
01:39:16,869 –> 01:39:20,710
f? Because yes. That that one will

1588
01:39:20,710 –> 01:39:24,205
kinda give you it it’ll help you count your spoons because you’re not familiar

1589
01:39:24,425 –> 01:39:27,305
with spoons. Like, I only got so many spoons in a day to use, and

1590
01:39:27,305 –> 01:39:30,344
if I use this spoon, I can’t do nothing else. It’s pretty much the same

1591
01:39:30,344 –> 01:39:34,070
principle. Be very careful on what you, what you pay attention

1592
01:39:34,070 –> 01:39:37,370
to and how you do, because, you know, the important things,

1593
01:39:38,364 –> 01:39:41,885
what you might think is important might not be what’s really important. Might not be

1594
01:39:41,885 –> 01:39:45,640
what’s really important. Yeah. It just helps you focus a little bit on on

1595
01:39:45,880 –> 01:39:49,560
what your priorities are and figure that stuff out. Some

1596
01:39:49,560 –> 01:39:52,860
other books that are pretty good reads from the from

1597
01:39:53,640 –> 01:39:57,275
the military side of it.

1598
01:39:58,135 –> 01:40:01,655
Book called Spare Parts is pretty good. It’s by

1599
01:40:01,655 –> 01:40:05,240
Buzz. First name, Buzz.

1600
01:40:06,180 –> 01:40:09,960
Anywhere he is. Can’t be reading that. But Williams.

1601
01:40:10,420 –> 01:40:12,360
Buzz Williams. Okay. Buzz Williams.

1602
01:40:14,385 –> 01:40:17,365
He’s a marine, and it’s essentially it’s his story from

1603
01:40:18,225 –> 01:40:21,585
going from, marine reserves of 1st Gulf Fourth all the

1604
01:40:21,585 –> 01:40:25,230
way through, his

1605
01:40:25,230 –> 01:40:29,010
career, prefacing his his,

1606
01:40:29,310 –> 01:40:33,115
you know, his his older brother who he idolized, who would

1607
01:40:33,275 –> 01:40:37,115
died in Vietnam. Mhmm. That’s a that’s a pretty good one. It’s

1608
01:40:37,115 –> 01:40:40,700
it’s it’s got some tough stuff. And then probably one of

1609
01:40:40,700 –> 01:40:44,060
the best ones that I’ve readers, just because

1610
01:40:44,060 –> 01:40:47,500
I’m involved in it, is a book called The

1611
01:40:47,500 –> 01:40:51,115
Brave Ones by Michael McCloud.

1612
01:40:51,735 –> 01:40:55,575
Okay. And so and it is actually a story. So

1613
01:40:55,575 –> 01:40:58,859
Mike McCloud was a fourth,

1614
01:40:59,960 –> 01:41:03,020
42 year old, professor

1615
01:41:04,280 –> 01:41:07,955
that joined the army to gain perspective to

1616
01:41:07,955 –> 01:41:11,715
write a book, and he was, he was

1617
01:41:11,715 –> 01:41:15,430
a photographer and a journalist, in our public

1618
01:41:15,430 –> 01:41:19,210
affairs office when I was in 82nd Airborne Division in their special annex

1619
01:41:19,270 –> 01:41:22,275
as the s nine NCOIC. Mike,

1620
01:41:22,755 –> 01:41:26,215
sergeant McLeod was probably one of the most

1621
01:41:26,275 –> 01:41:29,950
physically fit individuals that I had seen in a

1622
01:41:29,950 –> 01:41:33,710
long time at his age, like, this dude without PT

1623
01:41:33,710 –> 01:41:37,385
and just a lot of folks. But he’s also got

1624
01:41:37,844 –> 01:41:38,344
tremendous,

1625
01:41:41,445 –> 01:41:45,030
accolades from his photography. Mhmm. But the

1626
01:41:45,349 –> 01:41:49,190
book is from his entry into basic

1627
01:41:49,190 –> 01:41:52,170
training all the way through preparing for

1628
01:41:53,125 –> 01:41:56,505
deployment into Afghanistan, the the

1629
01:41:57,204 –> 01:42:00,744
experiences that he had with, 1st Brigade,

1630
01:42:01,445 –> 01:42:04,380
with, you know, 1st Battalion, 2nd Battalion, 504th,

1631
01:42:06,280 –> 01:42:10,115
it it’s really goes in. And there’s it’s

1632
01:42:10,115 –> 01:42:13,915
it’s tough to read. Mhmm. There’s a lot of essays there, I’ve

1633
01:42:13,955 –> 01:42:17,530
you know, I was there for. So it’s comes into the lot of what he

1634
01:42:17,530 –> 01:42:21,210
did and and how he did it. But, yeah, it’s a

1635
01:42:21,290 –> 01:42:25,114
that’s a good one to pick up, just to get a

1636
01:42:25,114 –> 01:42:28,875
perspective of not the leadership side

1637
01:42:28,875 –> 01:42:32,635
of it Mhmm. But from the subordinate side of like, the

1638
01:42:32,635 –> 01:42:36,340
soldiering side of it and their perspective of the

1639
01:42:36,340 –> 01:42:39,940
leadership Of the leadership. Happened. So it it it really

1640
01:42:40,100 –> 01:42:43,915
because, I mean, you can read a book all day long from numerous leaders that

1641
01:42:43,915 –> 01:42:47,375
are gonna talk about the decorum and the, you know, the

1642
01:42:47,915 –> 01:42:51,719
the elegance of, you know, being in that elevated position, looking down at

1643
01:42:51,719 –> 01:42:55,400
the troops marching along. But you don’t ever get to read about the

1644
01:42:55,400 –> 01:42:59,205
the 5 hour journey it took to get to that 2 minute walk in front

1645
01:42:59,205 –> 01:43:02,724
of the leader. Right. And and it because it starts at 2

1646
01:43:02,724 –> 01:43:05,764
AM with weapons draw, and then, you know, you gotta think. If you got a

1647
01:43:05,764 –> 01:43:09,590
100 and 30, 140 paratroopers who draw

1648
01:43:09,590 –> 01:43:13,270
out weapons, and it takes 2 minutes to book one

1649
01:43:13,270 –> 01:43:16,555
in, that mission lasts 2 hours. 2 hours. 3 hours

1650
01:43:17,094 –> 01:43:20,455
just to turn in weapons, you know. And it doesn’t matter. I mean, and it

1651
01:43:20,455 –> 01:43:23,594
just comes down like, the way that he writes, about

1652
01:43:25,260 –> 01:43:28,780
the the the experience from the lower level dealing

1653
01:43:28,780 –> 01:43:32,300
with, you know, that leadership. And you got a thing, man. We had great we

1654
01:43:32,300 –> 01:43:35,565
had great leadership in over in First Brigade. You know? Mhmm.

1655
01:43:36,105 –> 01:43:39,625
There was a lot of there was a lot of, you know, really

1656
01:43:39,625 –> 01:43:43,460
awesome, generals that came out of commanding 1st

1657
01:43:43,460 –> 01:43:46,120
Brigade 82nd. You know, General Petraeus, you know,

1658
01:43:46,980 –> 01:43:50,500
McCrystal. There’s a number of guys that that started off at

1659
01:43:50,500 –> 01:43:54,185
Brigade Command at 82nd Airborne Division First Brigade.

1660
01:43:54,185 –> 01:43:57,705
So, just the history and the lineage of that

1661
01:43:57,705 –> 01:44:01,145
alone. And then you go in, you read about what

1662
01:44:01,385 –> 01:44:05,150
how how his perceptions were as a as a young e five, or I should

1663
01:44:05,150 –> 01:44:08,909
say as a mature Mature. Yeah. Mature e five.

1664
01:44:08,909 –> 01:44:12,175
Because, I mean, he did garner he garnered a lot of respect

1665
01:44:12,474 –> 01:44:16,235
from, the senior leadership because he was

1666
01:44:16,235 –> 01:44:19,775
their age, and he was also equally

1667
01:44:20,830 –> 01:44:24,590
educated at the like, he could have easily had

1668
01:44:24,590 –> 01:44:28,030
gone to officer candidacy school Mhmm. And become a

1669
01:44:28,030 –> 01:44:31,695
lieutenant and and probably blow past all of

1670
01:44:31,695 –> 01:44:35,055
the individuals there. But, I mean, that guy was

1671
01:44:35,055 –> 01:44:38,435
really, really awesome. He was probably one of the

1672
01:44:38,655 –> 01:44:42,080
best, paratroopers that I had the pleasure to serve

1673
01:44:42,080 –> 01:44:45,680
with. Awesome. Well, that is a heck of a list,

1674
01:44:45,680 –> 01:44:49,395
and, we will, have that list in

1675
01:44:49,395 –> 01:44:52,995
the show notes with links to those books, below

1676
01:44:52,995 –> 01:44:56,740
this episode, of the podcast, and you can catch

1677
01:44:56,740 –> 01:45:00,120
that in any player that you listen to this podcast on.

1678
01:45:00,740 –> 01:45:04,191
Before I let Calen go today, and I wanna thank him for being on the

1679
01:45:04,191 –> 01:45:07,405
podcast, I wanna ask him the final question of today.

1680
01:45:08,105 –> 01:45:11,085
What would you like to promote today? If anything?

1681
01:45:12,920 –> 01:45:14,119
So it really comes down

1682
01:45:14,178 –> 01:45:16,875
Tom,

1683
01:45:18,360 –> 01:45:22,005
veterans in crisis. Right? You got so you got service

1684
01:45:22,005 –> 01:45:25,685
members. You got veterans. You got families. When it comes to

1685
01:45:25,685 –> 01:45:29,210
mental health, really wanna say if

1686
01:45:29,210 –> 01:45:33,050
you’re specifically in Texas, right, every state has their

1687
01:45:33,050 –> 01:45:36,810
own Veterans Affairs state department. The Texas Veterans Commission

1688
01:45:36,810 –> 01:45:40,455
is the one from Texas. The VA has resources available

1689
01:45:40,755 –> 01:45:44,515
concerning mental health. Regardless of your discharge type, if you’re in crisis,

1690
01:45:44,515 –> 01:45:48,160
you can go to any VA or ER and get immediate

1691
01:45:49,420 –> 01:45:51,920
crisis intervention for mental health.

1692
01:45:53,725 –> 01:45:56,605
All you do is go and say, I’m having a mental health crisis. This is

1693
01:45:56,605 –> 01:46:00,445
what I’m feeling, and I’m a a veteran. It does not matter what your

1694
01:46:00,445 –> 01:46:04,090
discharge type is. They will treat you. Right? There’s a lot of stigma that comes

1695
01:46:04,090 –> 01:46:07,610
with the individuals who have other than honorable, dishonorable, or bad conduct

1696
01:46:07,610 –> 01:46:11,390
discharges who think, you know, they don’t get normal VA benefits.

1697
01:46:11,450 –> 01:46:15,215
That’s correct. But they do get, mental

1698
01:46:15,215 –> 01:46:18,895
health crisis intervention benefits from the VA, regardless. So

1699
01:46:18,895 –> 01:46:22,590
that is always an option. Local mental health

1700
01:46:22,590 –> 01:46:26,350
authorities across the state of Texas, 37, that covers every

1701
01:46:26,350 –> 01:46:29,755
single county, all 254, in the state of

1702
01:46:29,755 –> 01:46:33,515
Texas. There is a peer service coordinator that is aligned with

1703
01:46:33,515 –> 01:46:36,955
every single local mental health authority. There’s a total of about

1704
01:46:36,955 –> 01:46:40,640
52 of us, and we all have volunteers that are part of what is known

1705
01:46:40,640 –> 01:46:44,480
as the Military Veteran Peer Network. So if you wanna

1706
01:46:44,480 –> 01:46:48,295
learn more on how to get involved with, taking care of veterans,

1707
01:46:48,435 –> 01:46:52,115
and that that’s veterans of all ages, all

1708
01:46:52,115 –> 01:46:55,750
branches, as long as they’re in Texas. I mean, I even

1709
01:46:55,830 –> 01:46:59,030
I talk to veterans who are not in Texas because they give my card to

1710
01:46:59,030 –> 01:47:02,630
their relatives up in Kansas or Colorado, and they call me. I

1711
01:47:02,630 –> 01:47:05,995
still set them in the right direction for what they need. But it just really

1712
01:47:05,995 –> 01:47:09,695
comes down Tom, there’s a veteran in crisis, get on

1713
01:47:10,075 –> 01:47:13,610
the necessary stuff that they need, and you can find it at the

1714
01:47:13,610 –> 01:47:16,969
Veterans Mental Health Department through the Texas Veterans

1715
01:47:16,969 –> 01:47:20,810
Commission. You go to, the TDC website. You

1716
01:47:20,810 –> 01:47:24,405
can pretty much go on Google and type in TDC, and it’ll should pop

1717
01:47:24,405 –> 01:47:27,925
up. Go to mental health, and that’s that’s basically where it

1718
01:47:27,925 –> 01:47:31,670
starts. But that’s too much for you, just you can go on Writers Mental

1719
01:47:31,670 –> 01:47:35,429
Health Department and type in Military Veteran Peer Network, go

1720
01:47:35,429 –> 01:47:38,469
straight to the main page, and there’s a nice easy map there. You can type

1721
01:47:38,469 –> 01:47:41,835
in your county, and it’ll bring up the name, phone number, email, and

1722
01:47:41,835 –> 01:47:45,594
address for the peer service coordinator that covers the area that

1723
01:47:45,594 –> 01:47:48,780
you’re in. It’s not hard to find one of us.

1724
01:47:49,960 –> 01:47:53,800
It’s, you know, that’s what we’re there for. We’re we are

1725
01:47:53,800 –> 01:47:57,345
here to take care of veterans, families, and,

1726
01:47:57,825 –> 01:48:01,445
service members to get them the resources they need

1727
01:48:01,905 –> 01:48:05,525
to begin to live a life of joy and happiness,

1728
01:48:05,730 –> 01:48:09,489
get out of the turmoil and despair, and come over and actually have

1729
01:48:09,489 –> 01:48:13,250
a fulfilling life of happiness. Right? That’s really what the goal is. I think

1730
01:48:13,250 –> 01:48:16,995
that’s important for them to know is there are options, and they can

1731
01:48:16,995 –> 01:48:20,535
come on over and and get the help they need. Awesome.

1732
01:48:20,755 –> 01:48:24,275
And we will have links, to those websites. We will have

1733
01:48:24,275 –> 01:48:28,050
links to, the military veteran peer network, and we

1734
01:48:28,050 –> 01:48:31,590
will have links, of course, to the veterans crisis hotline,

1735
01:48:32,130 –> 01:48:35,824
that Kalen mentioned, previously. And of fourth,

1736
01:48:36,005 –> 01:48:39,765
we encourage, any one of our listeners, or the

1737
01:48:39,765 –> 01:48:43,420
friends or spouses or relatives of any of our

1738
01:48:43,420 –> 01:48:47,040
listeners, if you know a veteran in crisis,

1739
01:48:47,740 –> 01:48:51,475
even in your neighborhood, writers, please encourage them to

1740
01:48:51,475 –> 01:48:55,315
reach out to folks like Callan, and, and get in touch with

1741
01:48:55,315 –> 01:48:58,940
the military veteran peer network in your state, as

1742
01:48:58,940 –> 01:49:02,480
we are listened to in all 50 states, or,

1743
01:49:02,940 –> 01:49:05,980
if you are listening in or not, or and if you’re listening in the state

1744
01:49:05,980 –> 01:49:08,835
of Texas, obviously, you wanna do that in the state of Texas.

1745
01:49:10,255 –> 01:49:13,315
988 is a nationwide for anybody.

1746
01:49:13,930 –> 01:49:17,370
Right. Fourth a veteran, they ask 988 and press 1 to

1747
01:49:17,370 –> 01:49:21,210
identify that you’re a veteran. And that a lot of people don’t

1748
01:49:21,210 –> 01:49:24,685
know. You can call 988 as a mental health professional and request

1749
01:49:24,685 –> 01:49:28,125
additional resources. Just let them know when you dial. I’m not in

1750
01:49:28,125 –> 01:49:31,760
crisis. I just need additional information. They will be more than happy to give

1751
01:49:31,760 –> 01:49:35,120
you any and all links and anything that you could possibly need or

1752
01:49:35,120 –> 01:49:38,720
want, mental health related. They’ll be more than happy to provide that to

1753
01:49:38,720 –> 01:49:42,285
you. And we will have that number again in the show notes

1754
01:49:42,285 –> 01:49:46,065
below the player of this podcast that you are listening to

1755
01:49:46,765 –> 01:49:50,060
this podcast on. Once again, I would like to thank,

1756
01:49:50,300 –> 01:49:53,500
Kaelin Bullard for coming by today and for talking with us,

1757
01:49:53,900 –> 01:49:57,200
about his work and about his background and his experiences.

1758
01:49:58,325 –> 01:50:01,465
And my name is Essays Sorrells. And with that,

1759
01:50:02,485 –> 01:50:03,385
we’re out.