Leadership Lessons From The Great Books #83 – The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway w/Libby Unger

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Hello. My name is Jesan Sorrells, and this is the Leadership

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Lessons from the Great Books podcast, episode number 83

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with our book today. The cornerstone

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of modernist literature that has successfully intimidated

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almost every single writer, without fail

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in the 20th century since its publication. Ernest Hemingway’s

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take on the lost generation via a

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roman a clef of the fin de sicle. I’ve always wanted to say that on

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the podcast, makes me sound smart. The Sun

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Also Rises. Now today, we’ve got

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the Warbler classics edition. And,

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And we’re gonna talk about The Sun Also Rises. We’re gonna talk about Ernest

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Hemingway’s writing and the impact of Ernest Hemingway’s

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writing on, Well, everything from leadership to

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life with our returning guest co host today,

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Libby Unger. Welcome back, Libby.

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Thank you for having me. It’s great to be back. Yeah. So this is going

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to be Libby’s, I think, what, like, 3rd episode, 4th episode?

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4th episode? Yeah. 4th episode. And, this is going to be her

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last episode of this season of the podcast. But don’t worry, she’ll

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be coming back next season, and,

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revisiting us for, I think, 6 or 7 big episodes.

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And she will be coming in on our panel discussion as we round

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the corner in our regular counting towards

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episode 100. Yes, that’s right. I will have done a

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100 of these. Make next year sometime.

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It’s maybe amazing. Who does a 100 of anything these days?

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Alright. And by the way, if you have systems in place.

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Yeah. Well, that and, like, just ridiculous consistency.

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Exactly. Yeah. You’ve got the repetition, the systems.

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Exactly. Just like that. Which speaking of repetition and

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systems, Hemingway would be proud. He was a very big fan of,

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of all of those things. And so as usual, we’re going to pick up

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from The Sun Also Rises. We’re going to start off in chapter six. And,

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we’re gonna pick up well, we’re gonna pick up

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with The sort of healthy conceit that he had when he

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returned from America early in the spring was gone. Then

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he had been sure of his work only with these personal

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longings for adventure. Now the sureness was gone. Somehow, I

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feel I have not shown Robert Cohn clearly. The reason is that

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until he fell in love with Brett, I never heard him make one remark that

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would in any way detach him from other people. He was so nice to watch

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on the tennis court. He had a good body and he kept it in shape.

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He handled his cards well at bridge, and he had a funny sort of undergraduate

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quality about him. If you were in a proud nothing he said

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stood out. He wore what used to be called polo shirts at school and

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maybe called that still, but he was not professionally youthful.

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I do not believe he thought about his clothes at all much. Externally,

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he had been formed at Princeton. Internally, he’d been molded by the 2 women

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who had trained him. He had a nice boyish sort of cheerfulness

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that had never been trained out of him, and I probably have not brought it

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out. He loved to win at tennis. He probably loved to

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win as much as Lenglund, for instance. On the other hand, he was not angry

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of being beaten. When he fell in love with Brett, his tennis game went all

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to pieces, people beat him who had never had a chance with him. He was

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very nice about it. Anyhow, we were sitting on the terrace

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of the Cafe Select and Harvey Stone had just crossed the street.

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Come on up to the Lilas, I said. I have a date. What time?

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Frances is coming here at 7:15. Oh, there she is.

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Frances Klein was coming toward us from across the street. She was a very tall

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girl who walked with a great deal of movement. She waved and smiled. We watched

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across the street. Hello, she said. I’m so glad you’re here, Jake. I’ve been wanting

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to talk to you. Hello, Francis, said Cohn. He smiled. Why,

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hello, Robert. Are you here? She went on talking

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rapidly. I’ve had the darndest time. This one, shaking her head at home,

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didn’t come home for lunch. I wasn’t supposed to. Oh, I

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know, but you didn’t say anything about it to the cook. Then I had a

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date myself and Paula wasn’t at her office. I went to the Ritz and waited

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for her, she never came, and, course, I didn’t have enough money to lunch at

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the Ritz. What did you do? Oh, went out, of

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course. She spoke in a sort of imitation, joyful manner. I

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always keep my No one keeps theirs nowadays. I ought to know better. How

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are you Jake anyway? Fine. That was a fine girl you had

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at the dance and then went off with that Brett one. Don’t you like her?

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Cohn asked. I think she’s perfectly charming. Don’t you?

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Cohn said nothing. Look, Jake, I want to talk with

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you. Would you come with me over to the dome? You stay here once you

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row, Robert. Come on, Jake. Request the Boulevard,

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Montparnasse and sat down at a table. A boy came up with the Paris

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times and I bought 1 and opened it. What’s the matter, Frances?

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Oh, nothing, she said, except that he wants to leave me. How do you

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mean? Oh, he told everyone we were going to be married and I told my

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mother and everyone, and now he doesn’t want to do it. What’s the matter?

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He’s decided he hasn’t lived enough. I knew it would happen when he went to

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New York. She looked up very bright eyed and tried to

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talk inconsequentially. I wouldn’t marry him if he doesn’t

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want to. Of course I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t marry him now for anything, but

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it does seem to be a little late now after we’ve waited 3

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years and I’ve just gotten my divorce. I said

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nothing. We were going to celebrate so, and instead, we’ve just had

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scenes. It’s so childish. We have dreadful scenes, and he cries and begs

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me to be reasonable, but he says he just can’t do it.

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It’s rotten luck. I should say it’s rotten luck. I’ve wasted

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2 years and a half on him now, and I don’t know if any man

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will ever want to marry me. 2 years ago, I could have married anybody I

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wanted down at con. All the old ones who wanted to marry somebody she could

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settle down were crazy about me. Now, I don’t think I could get anybody.

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Sure. You can marry anybody. No, I don’t believe it. And I’m

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fond of him too. And I’d like to have children. I always thought we’d have

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children. She looked at me very brightly.

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I never liked children much, but I don’t want to think I’ll never have them.

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I always thought I’d have them and then like them. He’s got

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children. Oh, yes. He’s got children, and he’s got money, and he’s got a rich

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mother, and he’s written a book, and nobody will publish my stuff. Nobody at all.

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It isn’t bad either, and I haven’t gotten any money at all. I could have

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had alimony, but I got the divorce the quickest way. She looked at

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me again very brightly. It isn’t right. It’s My Own Fault and It’s

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Not TO I ought to have known better. And when I tell him, he just

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cries and says he can’t marry. Why can’t he marry? I’d be a good wife.

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I’m easy to get along with. I leave him alone. It doesn’t do any good.

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It’s a rotten shame. Yes. It is a rotten

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shame. But there’s no use talking about it, is there? Come on. Let’s go back

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to the cafe. And, of course, there isn’t anything I can do.

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No. Just don’t let him know I talked to you. I know what he wants.

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Now for the 1st time, she dropped her bright, terrible, terribly cheerful

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manner. He wants to go back to New York alone and be there when his

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book comes out. So when a lot of little chickens like it,

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that’s what he wants. Maybe they won’t like it. I don’t think

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he’s that way. Really? You don’t know him like I do, Jake. That’s

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what he wants to do. I know it. I know it. That’s why he doesn’t

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wanna marry. Wants to have a big triumph this fall all by himself.

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Wanna go back to the cafe? Yes. Come on.

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We got it from the table. They had never brought us a drink and started

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across the street towards the select, where Cohn sat smiling at us from

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behind the marble topped table. Well,

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what are you smiling at? Francis asked him. Feeling pretty happy?

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I was smiling at you and Jake with your secrets.

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Oh, what I’ve told Jake isn’t any secret. Everybody will

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know it soon enough. I only wanted to give Jake

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a decent version.

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Oh, the literary life of Ernest Hemingway, let’s start off

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with that. So we covered a movable feast in

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episode number 18 with, DeRollo Nixon,

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who’s a big fan, by the way, of a movable because he’s a big fan

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of everything French and everything Parisian. Just go ask him.

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By the way, side note, the 2024 Summer Olympics are happening in

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Paris next year. They Will Be Very Parisian.

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Everyone should look forward to that in the Western world.

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Anyway, so we covered a movable feast in episode number 18, and a lot of

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the material that influenced the direction of The Sun Also

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Rises was located and was centered in

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the observations of the relationships between people that Hemingway

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recorded in A Movable Feast. The Sun Also

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Rises is sort of the fictional version of A Moveable Feast. It’s

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it’s the scaling up and the fictionalization of all of these relationships

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and all of these observations that Hemingway had.

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The Sun Also Rises is a story about dysfunctional people seeking

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to escape themselves and being unable to do so. The

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nation theater critic, Joseph Woodcrutch, way back in

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the day in reviewing, the stories in Men Without

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Women made a statement that while he thought it applied

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to the stories in, Men Without Women, another Ernest Hemingway

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collection, actually applies more closely to the characters of The Sun Also

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Rises. He he said, this is Joseph Woodcrutch. He

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said, that the stories in men without

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women were sordid little catastrophes involving involving very

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vulgar people. That’s an apt description

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for the dynamics and the relationships

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between people in The Sun Also Rises.

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And when you think about it, Hemingway could do

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no worse, but nor could he probably do any better. And that’s what

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makes This book, one of the dynamic

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books of modernist literature of the 20th century.

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The Sun Also Rises was an attempt by Ernest Hemingway to do what he claimed

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he was going to be doing in On Writing. His great book

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about writing, where he wrote on page 28 in

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that book, Write one true sentence first, then write

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another one. And that’s exactly

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what you get in The Sun Also Rises. It’s true sentence after

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true sentence after true sentence. Yes, it’s it’s

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a little bit it’s a little bit dramatized, like there with

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Francis and Robert Cohn and Jake, But that

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doesn’t mean that it’s not true. It’s

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just dramatic.

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Infinously enough, Gertrude Stein, said to Ernest

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Hemingway or told him that he

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was part of a lost generation. As a matter of fact, she claimed that him

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and all the people who were surrounding him were all part of a lost generation.

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The lost generation that she was referring to were people who had fought

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in World War one, who had who had seen what the

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terrible, truth of man could actually be

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in the killing fields of the Psalm, the

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Dardanelles, and of course,

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in the Eastern theater with the decline and fall

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of the Ottoman Empire. Now The Sun Also Rises sits

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in the month of books that we’re or sits at the end

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of a month of books where we’ve covered, T E Lawrence’s

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the 7 pillars of wisdom. And Lawrence and Hemingway were

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both, well, they were both they were both peers. They both

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existed at the same time in the world, But they had radically

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different thoughts about a post war world, and radically

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different ideas about what the impact of decadence,

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romance, and fundamentally leadership could be

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in a post World War 1, World.

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And so We’re gonna talk about this today

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with Libby about the challenge of saying something

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original in a world that is very, very

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derivative. I mean, we’re in 2023 right now, and

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almost everyone who’s anyone who’s creating anything

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is in a land war right now with large language algorithms

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to create something original. We’ve even

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talked about it on some of our shorts episodes. I’ve ranted a little bit about

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this, but we are now in a space where people are so

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driven by the online behaviors they have

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engaged in from shopping to commenting to, Libby and I were just

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talking about this before we hit the record button, to search that

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now our behaviors that we have done that have really worked for

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us online are now spilling out into the real world.

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And it’s really interesting when you try to apply algorithmically driven behavior

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that works online to dealing with other human

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beings.

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We’re gonna talk a little bit about all of that and more, and we’re

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going to frame it in the light of Ernest

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Hemingway’s One True Sentence, today on the podcast.

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So let me get out of the way for Libby

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here. Now let’s find out from her,

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what’s the impact of the writing of Ernest Hemingway and the

218
00:13:46,555 –> 00:13:50,199
impact of The Sun Also Rises on you? And What do you think about

219
00:13:50,199 –> 00:13:54,040
his approach or his desire to write one

220
00:13:54,040 –> 00:13:57,824
true sentence? And what do we take from that in

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the year of our lord 2023, almost a 100

222
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years after the rise in

223
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well, The Rise of the Lost Generation.

224
00:14:09,970 –> 00:14:13,505
Oh my gosh. I was so excited To

225
00:14:13,505 –> 00:14:17,265
actually to actually read this, and, yeah, and

226
00:14:17,265 –> 00:14:21,105
discuss it with you. First of all, like Durillo, I love

227
00:14:21,105 –> 00:14:24,740
all Parisians in French. And it

228
00:14:24,740 –> 00:14:28,280
goes there’s a it goes to something within my DNA.

229
00:14:28,420 –> 00:14:32,165
You know? So I tried The Sun Also

230
00:14:32,165 –> 00:14:35,524
Rises is just delicious. Like, I read it

231
00:14:35,524 –> 00:14:38,665
so slowly. I wanted to read it quickly,

232
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But I forced myself to read it slowly so that I could

233
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just sit in the magic of the moments that he created. Like,

234
00:14:46,845 –> 00:14:50,445
I could feel myself in the Parisian cafe, you know, back

235
00:14:50,445 –> 00:14:53,584
in 1923. It’s a yeah. The roaring

236
00:14:53,805 –> 00:14:57,610
twenties. You know, indulging in a

237
00:14:57,610 –> 00:15:00,990
glass of of your red wine and, you know,

238
00:15:01,290 –> 00:15:05,050
smoking a cigarette and, you know, but dressing your fine

239
00:15:05,050 –> 00:15:08,694
clothing and Speaking intellectually, but also

240
00:15:08,694 –> 00:15:11,834
bantering playfully with others. I mean, it was just

241
00:15:12,535 –> 00:15:16,050
it it’s so I I was Trying to see it through the

242
00:15:16,050 –> 00:15:19,730
lens of, like, the 15 or 16 year old that I was when

243
00:15:19,730 –> 00:15:23,465
I first read it, And I could I can’t I

244
00:15:23,465 –> 00:15:27,225
have so many life experiences now that I still I layer

245
00:15:27,225 –> 00:15:30,925
over it, that make it all that much more delicious.

246
00:15:31,690 –> 00:15:35,390
But there was something so resonant about Hemingway

247
00:15:35,450 –> 00:15:39,050
when I read him the first time that I was in love with

248
00:15:39,050 –> 00:15:41,655
the with the writing And the storytelling

249
00:15:42,915 –> 00:15:46,755
you, and I could I try to look at that from the

250
00:15:46,755 –> 00:15:49,120
lens of a 50 plus, Yeah. Individual,

251
00:15:50,379 –> 00:15:54,220
and rationalize back, you know, you know, is it his, you know,

252
00:15:54,220 –> 00:15:57,360
midwestern roots? Is it that adventurous

253
00:15:58,295 –> 00:16:00,235
streak that I loved so much.

254
00:16:02,295 –> 00:16:05,435
You know, the playfulness, you know, somewhat seriousness,

255
00:16:05,735 –> 00:16:08,190
but Lack of seriousness.

256
00:16:10,410 –> 00:16:14,090
I just I I I do believe a lot of it comes from

257
00:16:14,090 –> 00:16:17,805
his, Yeah. The good midwestern sensibilities. Like,

258
00:16:17,805 –> 00:16:21,485
you don’t feel judgment. You feel like someone just kind

259
00:16:21,485 –> 00:16:23,985
of embracing your life.

260
00:16:26,350 –> 00:16:30,190
So it was delicious to reread it. And then, you know,

261
00:16:30,190 –> 00:16:33,285
and then going down to, like, Spain and,

262
00:16:34,225 –> 00:16:37,205
in the bull fights and, you know,

263
00:16:39,105 –> 00:16:42,930
thinking about it from the literary Effective, it can feel magical

264
00:16:44,029 –> 00:16:47,470
from a reality perspective. You know, I’ve been

265
00:16:47,470 –> 00:16:51,275
to, you know, some whole fights in Spain and I had to walk

266
00:16:51,355 –> 00:16:55,115
Out because I was horrified at what they did to yeah. What

267
00:16:55,115 –> 00:16:56,815
they did to the animals. Right?

268
00:16:58,795 –> 00:17:02,330
Yeah. So it’s really Interesting. I didn’t wanna

269
00:17:02,330 –> 00:17:05,690
leave the create how the the reality that I

270
00:17:05,690 –> 00:17:09,310
created around the the fun and deity

271
00:17:09,530 –> 00:17:12,815
of the Of the times in Paris and Spain.

272
00:17:13,595 –> 00:17:17,274
But when I try yeah. When I fast forwarded it to the world I love

273
00:17:17,274 –> 00:17:21,020
it now, I’m like, Oh, it’d be like it’d be horrendous, like, the

274
00:17:21,020 –> 00:17:24,700
bullfights were horrible. No. I’m all for I’m all

275
00:17:24,700 –> 00:17:28,454
for you, appreciating beef, but, you

276
00:17:28,454 –> 00:17:32,294
know, you you create, you know, kill the

277
00:17:32,294 –> 00:17:35,434
kill the bull, like, humanely, not like

278
00:17:36,170 –> 00:17:39,610
4. But anyway, it was just it

279
00:17:39,610 –> 00:17:42,590
was lovely. And thinking about

280
00:17:43,465 –> 00:17:47,225
Why, you know, they were living the way that they were living. Right? It

281
00:17:47,225 –> 00:17:50,605
was right after world the great war. And,

282
00:17:52,290 –> 00:17:55,730
Yeah. For some of them going back, yeah, I think about

283
00:17:55,730 –> 00:17:57,830
the the Robert Cohn character,

284
00:17:59,695 –> 00:18:03,375
You well, after you lived it, you know, in an

285
00:18:03,375 –> 00:18:06,514
adrenaline and, adrenaline

286
00:18:06,815 –> 00:18:10,659
filled Rold seeing life at its,

287
00:18:10,659 –> 00:18:14,340
you know, most facest and maybe also most

288
00:18:14,340 –> 00:18:18,184
fullest, perspective, and then going back to a life of the

289
00:18:18,184 –> 00:18:22,025
mundane, you know, like, that would be really hard to go back

290
00:18:22,025 –> 00:18:25,850
to. Yes. Well, then they Well, they

291
00:18:25,850 –> 00:18:29,610
don’t so Robert Cohn, let’s Yeah. Talk about him for just a second because we’re

292
00:18:29,610 –> 00:18:32,110
not gonna really talk too much about his character today. But

293
00:18:33,424 –> 00:18:37,265
He is critical. His presence is critical for the forward movement of the

294
00:18:37,265 –> 00:18:41,020
plot, basically, of The Sun Also Rises, the sordid

295
00:18:41,020 –> 00:18:42,720
stories of very vulgar people.

296
00:18:45,420 –> 00:18:48,905
I think I like the vulgarity. Right? Well well

297
00:18:49,145 –> 00:18:52,745
It’s vulgar in a posh way, you know? It

298
00:18:52,745 –> 00:18:56,350
is. Well, when when Joseph Wood I mean, I went up when I went and

299
00:18:56,350 –> 00:19:00,190
did some research around it. Yeah. And, and when I found that quote, I

300
00:19:00,190 –> 00:19:03,825
also found the picture of Joseph of Joseph, Kirchner Wood or or yeah.

301
00:19:03,825 –> 00:19:07,265
Joseph Kirchner Wood. Yeah. And, or Joseph Wood, correct.

302
00:19:07,265 –> 00:19:11,020
Sorry. And, when I found that picture of him, He’s

303
00:19:11,180 –> 00:19:14,780
I mean, come on. I’m like, oh, come on. Pot and kettle, like, let’s let’s

304
00:19:14,780 –> 00:19:18,560
all just chill out here. Let’s all just chill out here for a minute. But,

305
00:19:19,185 –> 00:19:22,405
So Robert Cohn is one of those characters who,

306
00:19:23,505 –> 00:19:27,265
because of his Jewishness Yeah. Which which Hemingway leans

307
00:19:27,265 –> 00:19:30,460
on. Okay. But that was very important back in the day,

308
00:19:31,960 –> 00:19:35,575
because of his his his and and give the word that

309
00:19:35,654 –> 00:19:38,934
we were just talking about before we started recording that no one uses anymore, right?

310
00:19:38,934 –> 00:19:42,715
Because of his preppy approach to just like everything, right?

311
00:19:44,250 –> 00:19:47,929
The the the rise and fall of Robert Cohn, even down to the boxing.

312
00:19:47,929 –> 00:19:50,490
Right? Like, I’m gonna punch you in like, he’s this guy, like, I’m gonna punch

313
00:19:50,490 –> 00:19:53,125
you. Right? Because I gotta prove myself. He’s always looking for So I was looking

314
00:19:53,125 –> 00:19:56,085
for a fight, which by the way is a jujitsu guy. I was like, oh,

315
00:19:56,085 –> 00:19:59,865
man. I I think I’d have accommodated him. I’d accommodated him all day.

316
00:20:01,049 –> 00:20:04,510
But But that was why he was but he was likable

317
00:20:04,730 –> 00:20:07,950
and friendly, but you knew that he was an intellectual,

318
00:20:08,570 –> 00:20:12,125
like, He he was intellectual and superior,

319
00:20:12,345 –> 00:20:16,184
you know, superior at least equal to those in the circle. He was

320
00:20:16,184 –> 00:20:20,010
also a boxer, but in jujitsu, like, The whole point is you

321
00:20:20,010 –> 00:20:23,850
know he’s a boxer. Yeah. You’re because of that, you’re not gonna bat you

322
00:20:23,850 –> 00:20:26,910
know, you’re not gonna confront him. Right? Exactly.

323
00:20:27,555 –> 00:20:30,803
Until you do confront him and then you wind up waylaid, like what happens at

324
00:20:30,803 –> 00:20:33,875
the what happens at the end of book 2 at the end of there, you

325
00:20:33,875 –> 00:20:37,540
talk about the Spanish the Spanish expedition. The end of their Spanish

326
00:20:37,540 –> 00:20:41,380
expedition when everything starts falling apart and Colin waylays both Jake.

327
00:20:41,380 –> 00:20:44,925
No no surprise here. Jake and Bill Gorton lays them both out.

328
00:20:45,965 –> 00:20:49,325
And, and then you see, oh, okay. He actually is something because having, why I

329
00:20:49,325 –> 00:20:53,085
had to give him something underneath. Right. And you get this sense from

330
00:20:53,085 –> 00:20:54,625
reading about cones character

331
00:20:56,990 –> 00:21:00,430
That Hemingway is attempting. And I loved how you brought this up. This is something

332
00:21:00,430 –> 00:21:04,055
we’re going to talk a lot about today. Heming is Hemingway is attempting to take

333
00:21:04,055 –> 00:21:07,275
all of this decadence and put it inside of a Midwestern

334
00:21:07,815 –> 00:21:11,015
box because he doesn’t have another box to work with. That’s the sense that I

335
00:21:11,015 –> 00:21:13,350
get. Is that would you say that that’s fairly accurate?

336
00:21:14,850 –> 00:21:18,450
Yeah. Yes. I think there’s just kind of an

337
00:21:18,450 –> 00:21:22,225
objective, like, Again, there’s not judgment. He is

338
00:21:22,225 –> 00:21:25,684
just what he is. Right? And, like, you know, everyone every character

339
00:21:26,304 –> 00:21:29,300
is just who they are and they’re presented kind of,

340
00:21:32,900 –> 00:21:36,420
I I it’s kind of that lens that I miss seeing in modern

341
00:21:36,420 –> 00:21:40,075
day. It’s just like People are who they are. You don’t have to

342
00:21:40,075 –> 00:21:43,695
assign a good or bad Right. Or, you know,

343
00:21:44,235 –> 00:21:47,330
or A label identity label to them.

344
00:21:47,950 –> 00:21:51,789
You know, we that being said, you know, it is hard

345
00:21:51,789 –> 00:21:55,475
reading some of the the words, Yeah. In the book,

346
00:21:56,015 –> 00:21:59,695
like, you know, I I can detach from, you know, the fact that,

347
00:21:59,695 –> 00:22:03,315
you know, that those were words that were commonly used at the time

348
00:22:03,679 –> 00:22:06,960
And still have a visceral, yeah, reaction to re

349
00:22:07,200 –> 00:22:10,880
reading some of those words because we know what sits

350
00:22:10,880 –> 00:22:13,815
behind them. But back

351
00:22:14,674 –> 00:22:18,355
to kind of, like, the the reason I was bringing up the cone was because,

352
00:22:18,355 –> 00:22:21,720
yeah, with Frances, you know, Got

353
00:22:21,720 –> 00:22:25,080
divorced, and now she wants to have this beautiful life with the man that she

354
00:22:25,080 –> 00:22:28,539
was having an affair with, and she’s surprised that he doesn’t wanna commit,

355
00:22:29,164 –> 00:22:32,465
Yeah. Or doesn’t wanna go, but I look at it more psychologically

356
00:22:32,845 –> 00:22:36,605
after world war one, and living having

357
00:22:36,605 –> 00:22:40,280
lived like such a, I think a lot of

358
00:22:40,280 –> 00:22:43,260
the PTSD that they didn’t name that, but,

359
00:22:44,120 –> 00:22:47,100
was from, like, how do you go back into a mundane,

360
00:22:47,695 –> 00:22:51,135
Yeah. Predictable, safe world when

361
00:22:51,135 –> 00:22:54,655
you’ve lived, like, such an

362
00:22:54,655 –> 00:22:58,430
adrenal filled Yeah. World where you actually know what your

363
00:22:58,430 –> 00:23:02,270
life being threatened means. Also, by going to

364
00:23:02,270 –> 00:23:05,890
the Jake character, like, he can’t go back as a hero.

365
00:23:06,345 –> 00:23:10,105
Right? Like, so Paris, you know, Paris is financially makes

366
00:23:10,105 –> 00:23:13,805
sense because it’s cheaper to be a bohemian and a writer in Paris

367
00:23:14,370 –> 00:23:18,049
Then New York, but you also don’t have to face the reality of going

368
00:23:18,049 –> 00:23:21,510
home and not being like an esteemed hero

369
00:23:21,809 –> 00:23:25,505
or Well, and this is also during a time, and we forget this now

370
00:23:25,505 –> 00:23:29,105
because New York City had its ascendance between World War

371
00:23:29,105 –> 00:23:32,890
one and probably about the 19 sixties. And I’m not gonna

372
00:23:32,890 –> 00:23:36,730
say it declined, but it it it’s

373
00:23:36,730 –> 00:23:40,235
not what it what it was, right, in terms of

374
00:23:40,554 –> 00:23:44,315
even literary or fine well, not financial, but well, yeah. Yeah.

375
00:23:44,315 –> 00:23:47,995
Yeah. So we moved from literary prowess to financial prowess in New York City, and

376
00:23:47,995 –> 00:23:51,520
that that transition happened in the eighties and in the nineties. And now we think

377
00:23:51,520 –> 00:23:54,900
of New York as a financial sector, not necessarily a literary one.

378
00:23:55,200 –> 00:23:58,784
Mhmm. Paris never really relinquished

379
00:23:59,005 –> 00:24:02,304
its literary, bona fides.

380
00:24:03,005 –> 00:24:06,365
But Paris has now become this thing

381
00:24:06,365 –> 00:24:09,490
that, for want of a better term,

382
00:24:10,029 –> 00:24:13,009
seems unattainable if you’re in a literary

383
00:24:13,549 –> 00:24:17,285
spot here in the United States. And By the way, you talk about reading

384
00:24:17,285 –> 00:24:20,885
this book at 15 or 16. I was gonna reveal this on the podcast anyway,

385
00:24:20,885 –> 00:24:23,525
so I might as well reveal it early. I first ran to this book when

386
00:24:23,525 –> 00:24:27,110
I was 8 years old. Like, I don’t know who in my house

387
00:24:27,110 –> 00:24:30,230
decided that that would be a good book for me to pick up, but, like,

388
00:24:30,230 –> 00:24:32,710
I start I mean, I read it because it was easy. It was easy for

389
00:24:32,710 –> 00:24:36,085
me to read through. And I didn’t get all the illusions and everything, but I’ve

390
00:24:36,085 –> 00:24:39,445
read this book at least once a year, every year between like 8 and

391
00:24:39,445 –> 00:24:43,210
23. And I’ve got something out of it more and more and more.

392
00:24:43,210 –> 00:24:46,450
I was able to mine more and more out of it. And then between, like,

393
00:24:46,450 –> 00:24:49,975
23 and, like, It’s been like 20 years since I picked up this book,

394
00:24:50,195 –> 00:24:53,795
and then, you know, we read it again for the podcast and, for the

395
00:24:53,795 –> 00:24:57,630
show. And You’re right. Like, I’m in my mid

396
00:24:57,630 –> 00:25:01,410
forties now, and I’m, like, I’m looking at this book and I go,

397
00:25:01,870 –> 00:25:03,250
god, that’s a lot of booze.

398
00:25:05,715 –> 00:25:09,095
I think that’s a lot of drinking to hide, a lot of dysfunction.

399
00:25:09,555 –> 00:25:12,535
Or the bit there that we just read with Frances and,

400
00:25:13,520 –> 00:25:17,200
with Frances and Jake. And Robert, I I I

401
00:25:17,200 –> 00:25:21,040
gotta admit, when I was reading that, I was thinking, why didn’t Robert

402
00:25:21,040 –> 00:25:24,674
just tell her to go pound sand? Just oh, but

403
00:25:24,674 –> 00:25:28,195
he did. That’s what he did. But he did it in a in a

404
00:25:28,195 –> 00:25:31,735
19 twenties kind of way to your point, not a 2023

405
00:25:33,659 –> 00:25:37,100
kinda way, where it’s a little bit of a different dynamic with what’s going on

406
00:25:37,100 –> 00:25:40,940
with the Gen Zers now, and and, you know, all their all their

407
00:25:40,940 –> 00:25:44,765
sort of dating predilections versus what versus what was

408
00:25:44,765 –> 00:25:48,445
happening then. Okay. So one one

409
00:25:48,445 –> 00:25:52,270
other thought here, the richness of the book, which you Why glad you brought this

410
00:25:52,270 –> 00:25:55,650
up early. The richness of the book is evident

411
00:25:56,350 –> 00:26:00,014
and the things that people do, but it’s got such a

412
00:26:00,014 –> 00:26:03,855
simplicity and economy of language. Talk a little bit about that.

413
00:26:03,855 –> 00:26:07,534
Cause that’s, that’s real, a really hard target to

414
00:26:07,534 –> 00:26:11,350
hit. And he nail I mean, Hemingway nails the bull’s eye. And I

415
00:26:11,350 –> 00:26:15,110
think that’s a big gigantic reason why this book is still around now and will

416
00:26:15,110 –> 00:26:18,925
be probably for another 100 years. Probably because, I

417
00:26:18,925 –> 00:26:22,765
was contrasting it to Russian literature. Yeah. And we, you know,

418
00:26:22,765 –> 00:26:25,745
we had planned on Dostoevsky. Yeah.

419
00:26:26,149 –> 00:26:29,769
But I always loved Russian literature

420
00:26:29,909 –> 00:26:33,210
as well, you know, yeah, which is, you know, very

421
00:26:33,665 –> 00:26:36,085
Lowery and long and, yeah,

422
00:26:37,745 –> 00:26:41,570
it takes forever to, you know, to learn something or

423
00:26:41,809 –> 00:26:45,649
Grab it. You know, but and

424
00:26:45,649 –> 00:26:49,365
the beauty of Hemingway is he’s so precise In

425
00:26:49,365 –> 00:26:53,065
his language, and so the

426
00:26:53,685 –> 00:26:57,525
economy of words. Mhmm. But yeah. And I was thinking of

427
00:26:57,525 –> 00:27:01,110
your other Modern writers who I like who have economy of words, and it’s

428
00:27:01,110 –> 00:27:04,570
Patterson. Right? Like James Patterson or Nelson Fanil.

429
00:27:06,255 –> 00:27:09,855
But I don’t fall in love with that. Like, I’m not gonna

430
00:27:09,855 –> 00:27:13,695
reread a Patterson. I might reread a Nelson DeMille, like

431
00:27:13,695 –> 00:27:16,580
charm Goal and all that kind of fun stuff. But,

432
00:27:18,240 –> 00:27:21,940
it’s that he goes into he describes the characters

433
00:27:22,160 –> 00:27:25,875
and it’s In a in a way that you don’t get

434
00:27:26,175 –> 00:27:30,015
that other writers miss when they use the economy of

435
00:27:30,015 –> 00:27:33,789
words. Like, they use the economy of words just To move the action

436
00:27:34,010 –> 00:27:37,570
forward, he uses it in such a precision that you can

437
00:27:37,929 –> 00:27:41,529
yeah. You know precisely where the French cafe is and you can

438
00:27:41,769 –> 00:27:45,615
you know, Even though you can’t smell the the

439
00:27:46,075 –> 00:27:49,820
the wine on the floor and the cigarettes, You

440
00:27:49,820 –> 00:27:53,520
know enough that when you walked into that cafe or restaurant,

441
00:27:53,580 –> 00:27:57,340
you can smell it yourself. Mhmm. So it’s just like such

442
00:27:57,340 –> 00:28:00,635
a precision that even A young mind

443
00:28:01,095 –> 00:28:04,535
can imagine it. It gives you a room to imagine these

444
00:28:04,535 –> 00:28:08,159
things. Well I think that he

445
00:28:08,159 –> 00:28:11,780
trusts us with that. Right? That’s it. Yeah. He trusts

446
00:28:11,840 –> 00:28:15,505
the reader to fill in

447
00:28:15,505 –> 00:28:18,725
the empty arts with whatever they’ve got.

448
00:28:19,105 –> 00:28:22,730
Yeah. And The only

449
00:28:22,730 –> 00:28:26,190
genre I can think of that kinda gets closer to that

450
00:28:26,650 –> 00:28:30,170
is that we haven’t really revisited this genre. I mean, we read

451
00:28:30,170 –> 00:28:33,995
1 author, and we probably need to revisit, but, it’s magical

452
00:28:33,995 –> 00:28:37,675
realism. So we read, you know, Gabriel Garcia Marquez’s 100 Years of

453
00:28:37,675 –> 00:28:41,330
Solitude. Right? And You know,

454
00:28:41,330 –> 00:28:44,850
there’s a ton of books that are in that genre, but magical

455
00:28:44,850 –> 00:28:48,629
realism really does sort of build not sort of, it builds worlds

456
00:28:49,755 –> 00:28:52,554
and that allows you to come and gives you the freedom to come in and

457
00:28:52,554 –> 00:28:55,995
inhabit those worlds, and allows the owl the

458
00:28:55,995 –> 00:28:59,820
allegorical nature of those worlds to play out. Hemingway

459
00:29:00,440 –> 00:29:04,200
takes one aspect of that, or maybe doesn’t even take one aspect of that. I

460
00:29:04,200 –> 00:29:07,855
prob I wanna I’d be hesitant to say he was the pioneer on

461
00:29:07,855 –> 00:29:11,455
this. Maybe he was one of the pioneers in really taking one

462
00:29:11,455 –> 00:29:15,160
aspect of that, which is that economy of language and really pushing that

463
00:29:15,160 –> 00:29:19,000
to its furthest, extreme. I mean, even Toni Morrison was battling

464
00:29:19,000 –> 00:29:22,840
with him when she was writing, like, even she admitted, like, Hemingway lives in her

465
00:29:22,840 –> 00:29:26,455
head. Oh, that’s pretty cool. Yeah. I

466
00:29:26,455 –> 00:29:29,995
think, you know, I read somewhere he didn’t use

467
00:29:30,055 –> 00:29:33,830
adverbs or adjectives. Yeah. And yeah. And I think

468
00:29:34,610 –> 00:29:38,370
it was f Scott Fitzgerald who’s writing and I loved as well, but it probably

469
00:29:38,370 –> 00:29:41,510
had more to do with that time that I felt so

470
00:29:42,165 –> 00:29:45,765
Alive and gay, you know, gay in the the

471
00:29:45,765 –> 00:29:48,585
old meaning of the word gay. You know, gay.

472
00:29:49,440 –> 00:29:51,700
3. Yeah.

473
00:29:52,799 –> 00:29:56,240
But, you know, I’ve I’ve

474
00:29:56,240 –> 00:29:59,825
often said that we need to get adjectives out of our Our modern

475
00:29:59,825 –> 00:30:03,365
language because our language has lost on meaning

476
00:30:03,745 –> 00:30:06,965
with the use of of adjectives. Yep.

477
00:30:08,160 –> 00:30:11,380
Yeah. There’s yeah. There’s no, we’ve lost nuance.

478
00:30:12,240 –> 00:30:15,540
And he doesn’t use adverbs

479
00:30:15,840 –> 00:30:19,085
or Adjectives. You know, verbs are

480
00:30:19,205 –> 00:30:22,725
yes. It it it’s an interesting way that he

481
00:30:22,725 –> 00:30:26,450
describes things through the verbs, like the powdered Leaves.

482
00:30:28,190 –> 00:30:31,790
You know, the it it’s just it’s real it’s really

483
00:30:31,790 –> 00:30:35,525
interesting, That I you know, English majors could probably go

484
00:30:35,525 –> 00:30:38,965
into it a bit more. I know for myself just

485
00:30:38,965 –> 00:30:39,465
how

486
00:30:42,970 –> 00:30:46,810
As I said earlier, it gives you permission to fill in the

487
00:30:46,810 –> 00:30:50,434
blanks. But the Piece that was interesting too

488
00:30:50,434 –> 00:30:54,275
is all of the streets. You know, if you’ve been to Paris, and

489
00:30:54,275 –> 00:30:57,390
I’ve been over a dozen times, It’s my favorite city. It’s magical.

490
00:30:58,250 –> 00:31:01,390
I’ve probably been there, like, closer to 2 dozen times.

491
00:31:03,545 –> 00:31:06,985
But you didn’t need to know the names of the streets to get a sense

492
00:31:06,985 –> 00:31:10,424
of, you know, what he was describing, but once you’ve been

493
00:31:10,424 –> 00:31:14,150
there, Yo. It adds another layer of,

494
00:31:14,150 –> 00:31:17,830
like, richness as you’re like, oh, I’ve been there. And maybe

495
00:31:17,830 –> 00:31:20,745
it’s because Paris is Timeless

496
00:31:21,525 –> 00:31:25,205
because it hasn’t yeah. The beautiful Arondeese Montes have not been

497
00:31:25,205 –> 00:31:28,825
destroyed over centuries. You couldn’t necessarily

498
00:31:29,045 –> 00:31:32,630
do that With I guess you could with New York because it’s a grid system

499
00:31:32,630 –> 00:31:36,230
and it’s been around for a 150 years, but could you do that? I know

500
00:31:36,230 –> 00:31:39,914
there are very few places where you could do that. Well, and there’s

501
00:31:40,054 –> 00:31:43,815
also the and this is why I mentioned the Olympics. It’s not a dig

502
00:31:43,815 –> 00:31:47,355
at Paris, honestly. It’s actually a dig at the International Olympic Committee,

503
00:31:48,279 –> 00:31:51,260
is I don’t think they’re actually building any new buildings

504
00:31:51,960 –> 00:31:55,639
for any of this. I think the only concession that the that the

505
00:31:55,639 –> 00:31:58,995
French are giving to the Olympics is they’re moving the end of the Tour de

506
00:31:58,995 –> 00:32:02,835
France to someplace. Yeah. But if

507
00:32:02,835 –> 00:32:06,274
you wanna go watch an Olympic event in Paris, guess

508
00:32:06,274 –> 00:32:09,940
what? You’re gonna have to show up to some rickety shack somewhere to the

509
00:32:10,260 –> 00:32:14,100
they put up. Oh, they’re gonna have it they’re gonna have it on

510
00:32:14,100 –> 00:32:17,895
the outskirts Skirts and then the curves, and it’s not gonna feel anything like

511
00:32:17,895 –> 00:32:21,415
Paris. Exactly. Exactly. And they’re gonna be like, this is the best you’re

512
00:32:21,415 –> 00:32:25,159
getting. Good luck. Just gonna wander away. You’re lucky this

513
00:32:25,159 –> 00:32:28,840
wasn’t at Marseille. Just gonna walk away. Just gonna

514
00:32:28,840 –> 00:32:31,725
walk away. And that is a very French attitude

515
00:32:32,905 –> 00:32:36,425
to something that will shed that that

516
00:32:36,425 –> 00:32:39,820
normally, for most cities, is a huge

517
00:32:39,880 –> 00:32:43,720
event that sheds a ton of international light on it, and

518
00:32:43,720 –> 00:32:47,565
yet, Are you gonna tip me

519
00:32:47,565 –> 00:32:51,165
or not? You know? It’s interesting that you say that,

520
00:32:51,165 –> 00:32:54,465
but I’ve been going to the French Open for over 20 years.

521
00:32:54,920 –> 00:32:57,900
And I was at the French Open this last year.

522
00:32:58,600 –> 00:33:02,300
And I going back to my first time in 2001, 2002,

523
00:33:02,760 –> 00:33:06,235
you had to Fax in your request. Yeah.

524
00:33:06,534 –> 00:33:10,215
You only got to request, like, 4 tickets and you only

525
00:33:10,215 –> 00:33:13,870
knew, like, 3 months later, whether you got your

526
00:33:13,870 –> 00:33:17,310
request or not and it came in this beautiful, you know, with a

527
00:33:17,310 –> 00:33:21,075
beautiful gold ticket, like, yeah. Like Willy Wonka.

528
00:33:21,294 –> 00:33:24,275
Exactly. You’re like, oh my god.

529
00:33:25,215 –> 00:33:28,755
And now, oh my god, it was so efficient,

530
00:33:28,990 –> 00:33:32,830
It’s like I you buy your ticket online. If

531
00:33:32,830 –> 00:33:36,430
you wanna sell it, you just resell it, like, online through

532
00:33:36,430 –> 00:33:39,825
the, yeah, through the, French fed

533
00:33:40,065 –> 00:33:43,745
yeah. French Tennis Federation, there’s no fees or

534
00:33:43,745 –> 00:33:47,125
anything. You can yeah. It happens, like, within

535
00:33:48,010 –> 00:33:51,610
Within 30 minutes of someone wanting to sell their ticket, it’s

536
00:33:51,610 –> 00:33:54,830
there for someone else to buy, you know, that

537
00:33:54,970 –> 00:33:57,804
stick bought The food,

538
00:33:58,585 –> 00:34:02,044
the organization, it almost felt like something that, yeah, in

539
00:34:02,264 –> 00:34:06,020
Beijing and that’s not meant to be a dig. It meant that

540
00:34:06,020 –> 00:34:09,619
it was very organized and it was the

541
00:34:09,619 –> 00:34:13,385
movements through the stadiums were Very efficient, but you

542
00:34:13,385 –> 00:34:16,905
still got to enjoy, like, you know, the food and the

543
00:34:16,905 –> 00:34:20,505
experience. It was very, very well run and

544
00:34:20,505 –> 00:34:23,710
I always yeah. I have the American

545
00:34:24,969 –> 00:34:28,489
stereotype of the French, I was like, bam, I hear you, which is to

546
00:34:28,489 –> 00:34:32,284
you. Which will be with these quesorrhara. And

547
00:34:32,284 –> 00:34:36,125
no. It’s actually very well organized and it was a good

548
00:34:36,125 –> 00:34:39,540
balance of, Capitalism

549
00:34:39,920 –> 00:34:43,600
with, you know, with communism. I

550
00:34:43,600 –> 00:34:47,005
didn’t you know, I don’t think they’re communist, but Wanting to have

551
00:34:47,005 –> 00:34:50,605
that experience so that there was room for everyone to

552
00:34:50,605 –> 00:34:53,965
experience, but it was also very efficient from a

553
00:34:53,965 –> 00:34:57,440
business perspective. That’s interesting. I loved it. Yeah.

554
00:34:57,440 –> 00:35:01,280
So you, you might be you’re we’re gonna have to get you out

555
00:35:01,280 –> 00:35:04,400
of your comfort zone and you’re gonna have to go to France for the French

556
00:35:04,400 –> 00:35:08,195
Olympics. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I’ll I’ll

557
00:35:08,195 –> 00:35:11,875
be looking for my, I’ll be looking for my golden ticket, my golden

558
00:35:11,875 –> 00:35:15,310
Willy Wonka ticket in the, in the email. Won’t be in the mail, it’ll be

559
00:35:15,310 –> 00:35:18,990
in the email. You don’t have to. Now you get it online, you

560
00:35:18,990 –> 00:35:21,090
know, on your phone just like that.

561
00:35:23,775 –> 00:35:27,214
Well, well, back to the book. We’re gonna pick up in, we’re gonna pick up

562
00:35:27,214 –> 00:35:29,795
in chapter 8, with one of the more,

563
00:35:30,940 –> 00:35:34,380
shall we say controversial characters in The Sun Also

564
00:35:34,380 –> 00:35:37,440
Rises. We’re gonna talk a little bit about,

565
00:35:38,315 –> 00:35:42,155
a person who I probably would have palled around with. He’s a little more little

566
00:35:42,155 –> 00:35:45,295
more little more my speed, a fellow named Bill Gordon.

567
00:35:48,200 –> 00:35:51,960
Back to The Sun Also Rises, chapter 8. I

568
00:35:51,960 –> 00:35:55,260
did not see Brett again until she came back from San Sebastian.

569
00:35:56,025 –> 00:35:59,705
One card came from her there. It had a picture of a concha, and it

570
00:35:59,705 –> 00:36:03,165
said, darling, very quiet and healthy. Love to all the chaps,

571
00:36:03,225 –> 00:36:06,730
Brett. Nor did I see Robert Cohn again.

572
00:36:07,190 –> 00:36:10,550
I heard Francis had left for England, and I had a note from Cohn saying

573
00:36:10,550 –> 00:36:13,030
he was going out in the country for a couple of weeks. He did not

574
00:36:13,030 –> 00:36:16,875
know where, but that he wanted to hold me, to the fishing trip to Spain

575
00:36:16,875 –> 00:36:20,634
we had talked about last winter. I could reach him always, he wrote

576
00:36:20,634 –> 00:36:24,280
through his bankers. Brett was gone. I was not

577
00:36:24,280 –> 00:36:28,120
bothered by Cohen’s troubles. I rather enjoyed not having to play tennis. There was plenty

578
00:36:28,120 –> 00:36:31,205
of work to do. I went off into the races, dine with friends, and in

579
00:36:31,205 –> 00:36:34,405
some extra time at the office getting things ahead so I could leave it in

580
00:36:34,405 –> 00:36:37,685
charge of my secretary, when Bill Gordon and I should shove off to Spain at

581
00:36:37,685 –> 00:36:41,430
the end of June. Bill Gordon arrived, put up a couple of days at the

582
00:36:41,430 –> 00:36:45,270
flat and went off to Vienna. He was very cheerful and said the states were

583
00:36:45,270 –> 00:36:48,935
wonderful. New York was wonderful. There had been a grand theatrical season and a whole

584
00:36:48,935 –> 00:36:52,695
crop of great young light heavyweights. Any one of them was

585
00:36:52,695 –> 00:36:56,315
a good prospect to grow up, put on weight, and trim Dempsey.

586
00:36:56,640 –> 00:37:00,320
Bill was very happy. He made a lot of money on his last book and

587
00:37:00,320 –> 00:37:02,880
he was gonna make a lot more. We had a good time while he was

588
00:37:02,880 –> 00:37:06,595
in Paris and then he went off to Vienna. Was coming back

589
00:37:06,595 –> 00:37:09,395
in 3 weeks and we would leave for Spain to get in some fishing and

590
00:37:09,395 –> 00:37:12,935
go to the fiesta at Pemblona. He wrote that Vienna was wonderful,

591
00:37:13,210 –> 00:37:17,050
then a car from Budapest. Jake, Budapest is wonderful. Then I got a

592
00:37:17,050 –> 00:37:20,795
wire back on Monday. Monday evening,

593
00:37:20,795 –> 00:37:23,915
he turned about the flat. I heard his taxi stop and went to the window

594
00:37:23,915 –> 00:37:27,194
and called to him. He waved and started up the stairs carrying his bags. I

595
00:37:27,194 –> 00:37:30,460
met him on the stairs and took one of his bags. Well, I said, I

596
00:37:30,460 –> 00:37:33,900
hear you had a wonderful trip. Wonderful, he said. Budapest is absolutely

597
00:37:33,900 –> 00:37:37,580
wonderful. How about Vienna? Not so good, Jake. Not so good. It seemed

598
00:37:37,580 –> 00:37:41,235
better than it was. How do you mean? I was getting glasses and a

599
00:37:41,235 –> 00:37:44,675
siphon. Tight, Jake. That was tight. That’s

600
00:37:44,675 –> 00:37:48,180
strange. Better have a drink. Bill rubbed his forehead.

601
00:37:48,240 –> 00:37:52,019
Remarkable thing you said. Don’t know how it happened. Suddenly, it happened. Last long?

602
00:37:52,799 –> 00:37:56,385
4 days, Jake. Lasted just 4 days. Where Where did you go? Don’t remember. Rotes

603
00:37:56,385 –> 00:37:59,745
your postcard. Remember that perfectly. Do you have anything else? Not sure.

604
00:37:59,745 –> 00:38:03,425
Sure. Possible. Go on. Tell me about it. Can’t remember. Tell you

605
00:38:03,425 –> 00:38:07,210
anything I can remember. Go on, take that drink

606
00:38:07,210 –> 00:38:10,810
and remember. Might remember a little. Remember something about a

607
00:38:10,810 –> 00:38:14,510
price fight, enormously on a price fight. I had a,

608
00:38:14,805 –> 00:38:18,085
Now I’m gonna pause here for a moment. We’re about to go through a set

609
00:38:18,085 –> 00:38:21,685
here where there’s going to be an objectionable term. If you object to this term,

610
00:38:21,685 –> 00:38:24,680
please Skip over this and go to the next section in the podcast.

611
00:38:26,980 –> 00:38:30,680
Back to the book. Had a nigger in it. Remember the nigger perfectly.

612
00:38:31,195 –> 00:38:34,795
Go on. Wonderful, nigger. Looked like tiger flowers, only 4 times as

613
00:38:34,795 –> 00:38:38,475
big. All of a sudden, everybody started to throw things. Not me. Nigger just

614
00:38:38,475 –> 00:38:41,660
knocked down a local boy. Nigger put up his glove. Wanted to make a speech.

615
00:38:41,660 –> 00:38:45,180
Awful noble looking nigger started to make a speech, then local white boy hit

616
00:38:45,180 –> 00:38:48,940
him. They knocked the white boy cold, then everybody commenced to throw

617
00:38:48,940 –> 00:38:52,165
chairs. Nigger went home with us in our car, couldn’t get his clothes, wore my

618
00:38:52,165 –> 00:38:55,525
coat. Remember the whole thing now. Big sporting event. What

619
00:38:55,525 –> 00:38:58,805
happened? Loan the nigger some clothes and went around with him to try and get

620
00:38:58,805 –> 00:39:02,070
his money. Claimed to go the money on account of Rick in the Hall. Wonder

621
00:39:02,070 –> 00:39:05,910
who translated. Was it me? Probably, it wasn’t you. You’re right. It

622
00:39:05,910 –> 00:39:08,390
wasn’t me. It wasn’t me at all. It was another fellow. I think we called

623
00:39:08,390 –> 00:39:12,214
him the local Harvard man. Remember him now, studying music. How’d you come

624
00:39:12,214 –> 00:39:15,815
out? Not so good, Jake. Injustice everywhere. Promoter claimed nigger

625
00:39:15,815 –> 00:39:19,510
promised to let local boys stay, claim nigger violated contract, can’t knock

626
00:39:19,510 –> 00:39:23,349
out Vienna Boy in Vienna. My god, mister Gordon, said nigga. I didn’t

627
00:39:23,349 –> 00:39:26,215
do nothing there for 40 minutes. We’re trying to let him stay. That white boy

628
00:39:26,215 –> 00:39:28,955
must have rushed himself swinging at me. I never did hit him.

629
00:39:29,975 –> 00:39:33,655
Did you get any money? No money, Jake. All we could do is get niggas

630
00:39:33,655 –> 00:39:37,410
close. Somebody took his watch too. Splendid nigga. Big mistake to have him come to

631
00:39:37,410 –> 00:39:40,769
Vienna. Not so good, Jake. Not so good. What became of the

632
00:39:40,769 –> 00:39:44,595
nigger? Went back to Cologne, lives there, buried, got a family, going

633
00:39:44,595 –> 00:39:48,035
to write me a letter and send me the money I loaned him. Wonderful, nigga.

634
00:39:48,035 –> 00:39:51,860
Hope I gave him the right address. You probably did.

635
00:39:52,240 –> 00:39:55,520
Well, let’s eat anyway, unless you want me to tell you some more travel stories,

636
00:39:55,520 –> 00:39:58,875
said Bill. Go on. Let’s eat. We went

637
00:39:58,875 –> 00:40:02,635
downstairs now to the Boulevard Saint Michel in the warm June evening. Where

638
00:40:02,635 –> 00:40:06,015
will we go? Wanna eat on the island? Sure.

639
00:40:06,450 –> 00:40:10,230
We walked down the boulevard at the juncture of the Rue Des Ferneur Rochot,

640
00:40:10,290 –> 00:40:13,705
where the boulevard is a statue of 2 men in flowing robes. I know who

641
00:40:13,705 –> 00:40:17,465
they are, Bill I DeBonument, gentleman who invented pharmacy. Don’t try

642
00:40:17,465 –> 00:40:20,845
to fool me on Paris. We went on. Here’s a taxidermist,

643
00:40:21,260 –> 00:40:25,020
Bill said, wanna buy anything? Nice stuffed dog? Come on, I said,

644
00:40:25,020 –> 00:40:28,780
you’re pie eyed. Pretty nice stuffed dog, Bill said. Certainly

645
00:40:28,780 –> 00:40:32,595
brightened up your flat. Come on. Just 1 stuffed dog. I

646
00:40:32,595 –> 00:40:35,395
can’t I can’t take him or leave him alone. But listen, Jake, just 1 stuffed

647
00:40:35,395 –> 00:40:39,075
dog. Come on. Mean everything in the world to you

648
00:40:39,075 –> 00:40:42,560
after you bought it. Simple exchange of values. You give them money, they give you

649
00:40:42,560 –> 00:40:46,320
a stuffed dog. We’ll get you 1 on the way back. Alright. Have

650
00:40:46,320 –> 00:40:49,805
it your way. Road to hell paved with unbotched stuffed dogs. Not my fault.

651
00:40:50,605 –> 00:40:53,085
We went on. How did you get to feel that way about dogs all of

652
00:40:53,085 –> 00:40:56,365
a sudden? Always felt that way about dogs. Always have been a great lover of

653
00:40:56,365 –> 00:40:59,990
stuffed animals. We stopped and had a drink. Certainly

654
00:40:59,990 –> 00:41:03,510
like to drink, Bill said. You ought to try it sometimes, Jake. You’re about

655
00:41:03,510 –> 00:41:06,915
144 ahead of me. Ought not to daunt you,

656
00:41:06,975 –> 00:41:10,335
never be daunted, secret of my success. Never been

657
00:41:10,335 –> 00:41:13,730
daunted, never been daunted in public. What were you

658
00:41:13,730 –> 00:41:17,350
drinking? Stopped at the creole. George will be a couple of Jackroses.

659
00:41:17,410 –> 00:41:20,770
George is a great man. Know the secret of his success? Never been

660
00:41:20,770 –> 00:41:23,955
daunted. You’ll be daunted after about 3 more pernades,

661
00:41:24,575 –> 00:41:28,415
not in public. If I begin to feel daunted, I’ll go off by myself. I’m

662
00:41:28,415 –> 00:41:32,180
like a cat that way. When did you see Harvey Stone

663
00:41:32,319 –> 00:41:35,760
at the Crayon? Harvey was just a little daunted, hadn’t eaten for 3 days, doesn’t

664
00:41:35,760 –> 00:41:39,295
eat anymore, just goes off like a cat. Pretty sad. He’s

665
00:41:39,295 –> 00:41:42,815
alright. Splendid. Wish you wouldn’t keep going off like a cat, though. Makes me

666
00:41:42,815 –> 00:41:46,495
nervous. What will we do tonight? Doesn’t make any

667
00:41:46,495 –> 00:41:50,080
difference. Only let’s not get daunted. Suppose they got any hard boiled eggs

668
00:41:50,080 –> 00:41:52,480
here? If they had hard boiled eggs here, we wouldn’t have to go all the

669
00:41:52,480 –> 00:41:55,680
way down to the island to eat. Nick’s, I said, we’re gonna have a regular

670
00:41:55,680 –> 00:41:59,085
meal. Just a suggestion, said Bill. Wanna start now?

671
00:41:59,225 –> 00:42:02,985
Come on. We started again down the boulevard. A horse cab passed

672
00:42:02,985 –> 00:42:06,790
us. Bill looked at it. See that horse cab? Gonna have that horse cab

673
00:42:06,790 –> 00:42:10,390
stuffed for you for Christmas. Gonna give all my friends’ stuffed animals. I’m a nature

674
00:42:10,390 –> 00:42:14,045
rider. Taxi passed, someone in it, waves, and

675
00:42:14,045 –> 00:42:17,724
bang for the driver to stop. The taxi backed up to the curb and it

676
00:42:17,724 –> 00:42:21,539
was bred. Beautiful lady, said Bill, going to kidnap us.

677
00:42:30,684 –> 00:42:33,984
Everyone needs a little Bill Gordon in their lives. Now

678
00:42:36,670 –> 00:42:40,190
That entire section that I went there is a section that that

679
00:42:40,190 –> 00:42:43,810
troubles literally almost everybody who reads The Sun Also Rises,

680
00:42:44,575 –> 00:42:48,175
particularly in a post 19 sixties world because of the

681
00:42:48,175 –> 00:42:51,395
use of the word, well, that I just read repeatedly.

682
00:42:52,070 –> 00:42:55,130
It’s used and by the way, the number of times that that word is used,

683
00:42:56,070 –> 00:42:59,830
has been counted, and I believe it’s something like 64 times or

684
00:42:59,830 –> 00:43:03,455
something like that in the conversation. And

685
00:43:03,455 –> 00:43:06,975
it’s not used in any other place in the book with as much

686
00:43:06,975 –> 00:43:10,720
regularity as is used in the way in which Bill Gordon describes

687
00:43:10,720 –> 00:43:12,740
just the fight with the boxer in Vienna.

688
00:43:14,640 –> 00:43:18,240
Toni Morrison and many other African American writers have

689
00:43:18,240 –> 00:43:22,065
taken Ernest Hemingway to task for his use of this term and putting

690
00:43:22,065 –> 00:43:25,905
this term in Bill Gorton’s mouth, In The Sun Also Rises, but

691
00:43:25,905 –> 00:43:29,590
I am not going to join their ranks for one reason and

692
00:43:29,590 –> 00:43:33,270
one reason alone. I think if this book were a

693
00:43:33,270 –> 00:43:36,630
show, it would be Seinfeld and Bill Gordon would be cast as

694
00:43:36,630 –> 00:43:40,415
Kramer. Bill Gordon is the kind of guy that operates

695
00:43:40,415 –> 00:43:43,935
outside the boundaries of society, just like Kramer operated

696
00:43:43,935 –> 00:43:47,075
outside the boundaries of that show Seinfeld, if you remember.

697
00:43:48,880 –> 00:43:51,300
And the thing about this is this,

698
00:43:53,120 –> 00:43:56,800
we live in a world that’s so become increasingly flattened

699
00:43:56,800 –> 00:44:00,625
and conformist, the guys like Bill Gorton nor guys like

700
00:44:00,625 –> 00:44:04,464
Kramer, are being well,

701
00:44:04,464 –> 00:44:08,180
the edges of them, of course, are being rounded out and the spaces for

702
00:44:08,180 –> 00:44:11,940
them to exist in are being rounded out. And that’s really what irks us

703
00:44:11,940 –> 00:44:15,460
about this language. It’s language that refuses to be

704
00:44:15,460 –> 00:44:19,305
rounded out. It irks us in the same way that elements

705
00:44:19,305 –> 00:44:22,825
of the Bible and biblical language irk us because it

706
00:44:22,825 –> 00:44:26,290
refuses to bow to the algorithm. He refuses to be rounded

707
00:44:26,290 –> 00:44:30,050
out. It reminds us that there are people in the world who actually do

708
00:44:30,050 –> 00:44:33,410
think and talk like this and refuse to be rounded

709
00:44:33,410 –> 00:44:36,905
out. And by the way, it’s not just that word.

710
00:44:37,205 –> 00:44:40,565
There will be other words that will come along in the lexicon as they have

711
00:44:40,565 –> 00:44:44,390
in the last 10 years that you can’t say,

712
00:44:46,930 –> 00:44:50,310
that probably are more accurate

713
00:44:51,585 –> 00:44:55,425
and more close to the actual nature

714
00:44:55,425 –> 00:44:59,025
of who human beings are if you just take them as they

715
00:44:59,025 –> 00:45:02,760
are and stop trying to round them out. By the

716
00:45:02,760 –> 00:45:06,220
way, Bill Gorton’s also the kind of guy who, if he’s your friend,

717
00:45:06,734 –> 00:45:10,494
will just like Kramer did in one episode of Seinfeld show

718
00:45:10,494 –> 00:45:14,095
up at your enemy’s house with a sock full of pennies and hit him with

719
00:45:14,095 –> 00:45:14,595
it.

720
00:45:17,920 –> 00:45:20,900
You need a guy like Bill Gorton in your life.

721
00:45:22,640 –> 00:45:26,275
Hemingway reflects and exposes without judgment or condemnation, the

722
00:45:26,275 –> 00:45:29,494
prejudices of his era as being normal for those times.

723
00:45:30,115 –> 00:45:33,954
But he does it in a satirical and almost over the top way that

724
00:45:33,954 –> 00:45:37,130
horrifies us in the now with our neo puritanical

725
00:45:37,430 –> 00:45:41,190
secular public moral codes, or as

726
00:45:41,190 –> 00:45:44,845
I said, our vainglorious attempts to round people out We

727
00:45:44,845 –> 00:45:48,685
just refuse to be rounded out and just

728
00:45:48,685 –> 00:45:49,665
want to go fishing.

729
00:45:52,620 –> 00:45:56,140
My question to Libby, and this, of course, gets us into a whole long

730
00:45:56,140 –> 00:45:59,954
conversation, is how do you deal with a friend who’s part

731
00:45:59,954 –> 00:46:03,795
of your friend group and almost everybody’s got a Kramer in their friend group. I

732
00:46:03,795 –> 00:46:07,555
I thought of like 3 guys I know who fit into the

733
00:46:07,555 –> 00:46:11,380
Bill Gorton mode, at least 3. And I don’t know how

734
00:46:11,380 –> 00:46:14,820
it works for women, but for dudes, every dude knows at least 1

735
00:46:14,820 –> 00:46:18,405
guy who’s just He’s just that guy,

736
00:46:18,465 –> 00:46:21,985
like, that’s it. Like and if you need something done, he’ll ride and die with

737
00:46:21,985 –> 00:46:25,185
you. And literally, you will hand him a sock full of pennies and be like,

738
00:46:25,185 –> 00:46:28,050
go fix the problem, and you’ll never hear about the problem again. They’ll just go

739
00:46:28,050 –> 00:46:31,170
fix it, and you don’t you don’t need to ask any details, the problem’s been

740
00:46:31,170 –> 00:46:34,845
fixed, and you’ll never hear any blowback. So how

741
00:46:34,845 –> 00:46:36,545
do you deal with somebody,

742
00:46:38,925 –> 00:46:42,605
a friend in your friend group, who’s Bill Gordon, who’s just

743
00:46:42,605 –> 00:46:46,380
Utre, who just says the things out loud that everybody’s thinking,

744
00:46:46,520 –> 00:46:48,380
but no one wants to say out loud.

745
00:46:52,115 –> 00:46:53,815
You effing embrace him.

746
00:46:58,265 –> 00:47:01,730
Effing away. Yeah. That was part of

747
00:47:02,430 –> 00:47:06,190
well, reading this, it was so refreshing. I

748
00:47:06,190 –> 00:47:10,015
just The times were just refreshing and not

749
00:47:10,015 –> 00:47:13,535
because of that word, right, but because we it

750
00:47:13,535 –> 00:47:16,970
actually showed, like, 1, not because of that

751
00:47:16,970 –> 00:47:20,670
word, and 2, I don’t

752
00:47:20,730 –> 00:47:24,545
I don’t know that using that Were that

753
00:47:24,765 –> 00:47:28,525
frequently at in 1923 was

754
00:47:28,525 –> 00:47:32,020
designed to actually make people feel a certain way. It was

755
00:47:32,020 –> 00:47:35,480
part of the ling the common lingo ling language.

756
00:47:37,140 –> 00:47:40,954
For me, he was more like The Charlie Sheen

757
00:47:40,954 –> 00:47:44,795
and Two and A Half Men. Okay. Yeah. That works too. Yeah. Oh my god.

758
00:47:44,795 –> 00:47:48,450
Like and as you were describing, I’m like, This is the Charlie Sheen

759
00:47:48,450 –> 00:47:51,890
who you wanna hang out with and, you know, I

760
00:47:51,890 –> 00:47:55,535
loved Two and A Half Men. I watched it every yeah. I

761
00:47:55,535 –> 00:47:57,875
can watch it on rewind yeah, rewind,

762
00:47:58,895 –> 00:48:02,495
replay, when it was first came out. I

763
00:48:02,495 –> 00:48:06,280
mean, I Literally was my stomach would hurt because we

764
00:48:06,280 –> 00:48:09,980
laughing so hard at the end of every at the end of every episode.

765
00:48:11,795 –> 00:48:15,155
And it’s funny. I don’t know that I I would laugh as

766
00:48:15,155 –> 00:48:18,915
hard, you know, now rewatching some of

767
00:48:18,915 –> 00:48:22,670
those episodes, but I find I don’t wanna watch

768
00:48:22,670 –> 00:48:26,350
the ones with Ashton Kutcher. I’m like, that’s boring. I want the ones

769
00:48:26,350 –> 00:48:30,175
with Charlie Sheen. But it was because he wasn’t

770
00:48:30,175 –> 00:48:32,035
living on the edge, you know.

771
00:48:34,095 –> 00:48:37,930
He was living kind of Acceptably, but in a way that many of us

772
00:48:37,930 –> 00:48:41,230
wanna live, you know, at least part time.

773
00:48:41,690 –> 00:48:43,310
Yeah. And,

774
00:48:45,474 –> 00:48:49,015
I find I am almost ashamed

775
00:48:49,474 –> 00:48:52,560
that I don’t wanna laugh anymore. Right?

776
00:48:52,940 –> 00:48:56,140
Like Well well, and it is one of the ironies of our era, and I

777
00:48:56,140 –> 00:48:59,359
have it in my notes. It is one of the ironies of our era that

778
00:48:59,934 –> 00:49:03,635
for all of the talk about millennials and Gen Zers being revolutionary,

779
00:49:04,895 –> 00:49:08,540
they’re actually quite conservative. And but

780
00:49:08,540 –> 00:49:12,380
it’s conservative in a different kind of way. It is it is this Neo

781
00:49:12,380 –> 00:49:16,220
puritanical secular public moral code. This is sort

782
00:49:16,220 –> 00:49:20,045
of everywhere. And if you even step a little bit outside

783
00:49:20,045 –> 00:49:23,725
of that moral code, I’m gonna talk about cancel culture. The there’s a there’s a

784
00:49:23,725 –> 00:49:26,910
there’s a, you know, there’s an arc from stepping outside of the code to to

785
00:49:27,069 –> 00:49:30,109
cancel culture. It it it’s, it’s not that far of a leap. It’s not that

786
00:49:30,109 –> 00:49:33,789
far of a jump, but it is there. And

787
00:49:33,789 –> 00:49:37,305
because they’ve grown up in an environment, an online entertainment

788
00:49:38,005 –> 00:49:41,605
slash culture making environment where the things move so quickly that

789
00:49:41,605 –> 00:49:45,320
the public moral code shift and shift and shift and shift and shift and shift.

790
00:49:45,400 –> 00:49:49,240
You’re constantly dancing from foot to foot. And to be outre is to

791
00:49:49,240 –> 00:49:52,680
say is to reject all of that and just be like, no, I’m not gonna

792
00:49:52,920 –> 00:49:56,105
I don’t care. Okay about any of that. I’m just gonna say whatever it is

793
00:49:56,105 –> 00:49:57,885
I’m gonna say. And

794
00:50:01,309 –> 00:50:05,069
I don’t know. I think you need more of that. I think that’s truly not

795
00:50:05,069 –> 00:50:08,670
revolutionary, but truly reformative. That’s that’s it’s a

796
00:50:08,670 –> 00:50:12,275
reformation not a revolution. I I would agree. I,

797
00:50:12,975 –> 00:50:16,815
I 1, I agree that they think that the current

798
00:50:16,815 –> 00:50:20,400
generation thinks they’re revolution Mary, but that’s because they don’t understand

799
00:50:20,400 –> 00:50:22,980
history. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And

800
00:50:24,400 –> 00:50:27,765
revolutionary when everyone is saying the Same effing thing is not

801
00:50:27,765 –> 00:50:31,465
revolutionary. You know, that’s not courageous. That’s, you

802
00:50:31,845 –> 00:50:35,430
know, that’s tribal. Yeah.

803
00:50:35,430 –> 00:50:38,810
And, you know, and reactive thinking.

804
00:50:40,550 –> 00:50:44,365
Yeah. So When I think of, like, the Bill, you know,

805
00:50:44,365 –> 00:50:47,964
the Bill Gorton or the, you know, the Charlie Sheen or, you know, the

806
00:50:47,964 –> 00:50:51,710
Kramer, you know, Who are those in my life? Like,

807
00:50:51,710 –> 00:50:55,170
I embrace them and often I feel like that person. Right?

808
00:50:55,390 –> 00:50:59,065
Mhmm. You know, I often hear, oh, how you’re so

809
00:50:59,065 –> 00:51:01,405
refreshing. Mhmm. And I’m like, why?

810
00:51:04,025 –> 00:51:07,829
And, you know, It’s because so many people aren’t used to

811
00:51:07,829 –> 00:51:11,290
people saying what they’re thinking. Mhmm. You know?

812
00:51:12,869 –> 00:51:16,685
Well and and And it does but the

813
00:51:16,685 –> 00:51:20,065
the other rounding out the language, we’re rounding out

814
00:51:20,685 –> 00:51:23,980
everything so that The average

815
00:51:25,000 –> 00:51:28,680
extends the average extends to, like, 80% of

816
00:51:28,680 –> 00:51:32,145
every experience in our language, in our customer experience, in,

817
00:51:32,305 –> 00:51:36,065
Yeah. In the homes we buy and the, you know, the food we eat, everything

818
00:51:36,065 –> 00:51:39,845
has been averaged and rounded out.

819
00:51:39,985 –> 00:51:43,670
It’s Boring as all hell. So I’ve been

820
00:51:43,670 –> 00:51:47,269
thinking a lot about this, particularly in light of the podcast, in light of what

821
00:51:47,269 –> 00:51:50,745
we do here. Right? And not in

822
00:51:50,745 –> 00:51:54,105
terms of how do we push the envelope, that’s not really

823
00:51:54,105 –> 00:51:57,720
it. And not even in terms of how are we original. I don’t think you

824
00:51:57,720 –> 00:52:00,760
could get to be original. I think everything’s a derivative of everything else. There’s just

825
00:52:00,760 –> 00:52:03,400
no way you can get away from that. That’s what I was taught at art

826
00:52:03,400 –> 00:52:07,205
school. Everybody starts by copying, You know, a great artist, and then

827
00:52:07,205 –> 00:52:10,105
you may stumble into something that’s original of yourself,

828
00:52:10,885 –> 00:52:14,325
if you are lucky, and it takes you like 20 years to stumble into something

829
00:52:14,325 –> 00:52:15,145
that’s original.

830
00:52:21,270 –> 00:52:25,045
Okay. But I was interviewed on another pod on another show, basically, about this

831
00:52:25,045 –> 00:52:28,885
show. We were talking about it in terms of leadership. And I I mentioned there,

832
00:52:28,885 –> 00:52:32,660
and as I mentioned before on this show, multiple times that I’m a partisan

833
00:52:32,660 –> 00:52:36,100
for free speech, right? Free speech is

834
00:52:36,100 –> 00:52:39,380
required in order to have free

835
00:52:39,540 –> 00:52:43,224
no, free thought and free speech operate

836
00:52:43,285 –> 00:52:46,825
together. They they they walk hand they have to walk hand in hand.

837
00:52:47,045 –> 00:52:50,840
If they don’t, then you do get that averaging

838
00:52:50,840 –> 00:52:54,200
out all the way to the edges, right? That

839
00:52:54,200 –> 00:52:57,925
conformist compliance based, to your

840
00:52:57,925 –> 00:53:01,605
point, tribal and reactive behavior. Okay? And and

841
00:53:01,605 –> 00:53:05,205
and and thought and approach to problem solving. By the way, that

842
00:53:05,205 –> 00:53:07,065
really, that really sort of,

843
00:53:08,839 –> 00:53:12,640
stops you from being innovative as well in a technological sense, in a cultural sense,

844
00:53:12,640 –> 00:53:15,734
in a philosophical sense, it just it just stops. Right. You don’t get new ideas

845
00:53:15,734 –> 00:53:18,875
because you don’t have free speech because you don’t have free thought. Okay.

846
00:53:23,550 –> 00:53:27,090
How then can a person,

847
00:53:27,630 –> 00:53:31,325
just in their own friend group, Be Original, when there’s all

848
00:53:31,325 –> 00:53:35,165
this social pressure, right, to kind of, to kind of pull in

849
00:53:35,165 –> 00:53:38,910
and be conformist. And, and, and, you know, I don’t mind if

850
00:53:38,910 –> 00:53:42,589
you’re conformist with your own friend group. That’s probably the people you probably should conform

851
00:53:42,589 –> 00:53:45,170
with the most. But past that,

852
00:53:47,605 –> 00:53:51,445
Like, really? You know, you know, challenging

853
00:53:51,445 –> 00:53:55,170
your own friend group, challenging your own family hard. Don’t get me wrong. Trust me,

854
00:53:55,170 –> 00:53:58,850
I I know this. But it is the space where

855
00:53:58,850 –> 00:54:02,565
free thought has to live. Right? Or at

856
00:54:02,565 –> 00:54:06,325
least has to start living if we wanna get a

857
00:54:06,325 –> 00:54:09,925
pass this whole, like, flattening of the algorithm kind of nonsense that we’re

858
00:54:09,925 –> 00:54:12,930
experiencing right now. So,

859
00:54:14,910 –> 00:54:18,590
1, I’ll start and agree with the the insight that

860
00:54:18,590 –> 00:54:22,234
everything is derivative. Right? Yeah. And

861
00:54:22,234 –> 00:54:25,615
the more that we see and the more that we learn, we realize

862
00:54:26,154 –> 00:54:29,755
how unoriginal a lot of our thoughts are, but that’s just the

863
00:54:29,755 –> 00:54:33,420
human condition. Yeah. There’s a difference between being

864
00:54:33,420 –> 00:54:37,100
derivative and conformist. Yeah. And conformist is when kind of the

865
00:54:37,100 –> 00:54:40,035
mass Is viewing a certain way

866
00:54:40,895 –> 00:54:44,494
thinks a certain way, and then, there are positions that are

867
00:54:44,494 –> 00:54:48,070
maybe opposite or congenital To,

868
00:54:48,130 –> 00:54:51,890
like, one way of thinking, and I I think it’s always important to

869
00:54:51,890 –> 00:54:55,570
look at things holistically and challenge the status quo, the

870
00:54:55,570 –> 00:54:57,255
status quo being Conformity.

871
00:55:00,994 –> 00:55:04,755
The way that I the way that I have always looked at

872
00:55:04,755 –> 00:55:07,820
this Is that you need to

873
00:55:09,400 –> 00:55:13,080
find the original you. And

874
00:55:13,080 –> 00:55:15,495
so You touched on that earlier.

875
00:55:17,555 –> 00:55:20,775
We start out by finding out the original

876
00:55:21,235 –> 00:55:24,900
you by being the original others. Mhmm. Yeah.

877
00:55:24,900 –> 00:55:28,420
And testing and trying different thoughts or clothes

878
00:55:28,420 –> 00:55:32,035
or work or whatever. You know, You’re given some

879
00:55:32,035 –> 00:55:34,775
rules of the road that we’re told work,

880
00:55:36,994 –> 00:55:39,575
and if you try you wear that

881
00:55:40,950 –> 00:55:44,710
Literally or theoretically, and then you can

882
00:55:44,710 –> 00:55:48,465
determine for yourself whether it fits you or not Based

883
00:55:48,465 –> 00:55:52,065
on how you feel in your life. Like, are you

884
00:55:52,065 –> 00:55:55,845
depressed or are you empowered? Are you depressed or are you happy?

885
00:55:56,225 –> 00:55:59,730
Are you? I always look for the word thrive

886
00:56:00,030 –> 00:56:03,490
because thriving to me is what I

887
00:56:04,030 –> 00:56:07,615
opt towards and what I work Towards being.

888
00:56:08,075 –> 00:56:10,335
Mhmm. You know, and thriving is,

889
00:56:11,835 –> 00:56:15,195
doesn’t mean you’re always like, I don’t look to be happy, I look to be

890
00:56:15,195 –> 00:56:18,770
fulfilled. You know, am I taking on new challenges? Am I learning new

891
00:56:18,770 –> 00:56:22,530
things? Am I always curious and open

892
00:56:22,530 –> 00:56:26,365
to hearing alternative ways so that I Can

893
00:56:26,365 –> 00:56:29,745
generate, like so I can see

894
00:56:30,605 –> 00:56:34,365
what’s real in a way that I can’t see what’s real if I’m open and

895
00:56:34,365 –> 00:56:37,030
close to ideas. Yep. And so

896
00:56:38,290 –> 00:56:42,050
challenging folks for me is only about coming from a place

897
00:56:42,050 –> 00:56:45,270
of positive intent and not shame.

898
00:56:45,915 –> 00:56:49,295
Shaming or or, judging others. And so

899
00:56:51,595 –> 00:56:55,390
for me, when you’re Challenging the status

900
00:56:55,390 –> 00:56:59,230
quo or you’re challenging a conformist. The

901
00:56:59,230 –> 00:57:00,930
challenge is only around,

902
00:57:04,275 –> 00:57:08,035
Questioning what you know to be true and are there

903
00:57:08,035 –> 00:57:11,575
other way are there other truths that maybe you don’t know?

904
00:57:12,260 –> 00:57:16,099
On and 1 e yeah. And, you know, so in many

905
00:57:16,099 –> 00:57:19,720
families, in dysfunctional families, you know, when you’re challenged,

906
00:57:20,115 –> 00:57:23,575
It’s about your raw your your hearing, you’re wrong,

907
00:57:24,035 –> 00:57:27,875
you should be ashamed of how you’re feeling, like me with the

908
00:57:27,875 –> 00:57:31,680
Charlie Sheen. Yeah. I’m laughing at

909
00:57:31,680 –> 00:57:35,040
the guy and having a ball. I yeah. There’s a part of me that

910
00:57:35,200 –> 00:57:39,040
yeah. It’s society is telling me you should be ashamed of it, but he’s

911
00:57:39,040 –> 00:57:42,795
effing Funny. Right. So but everything is about

912
00:57:42,795 –> 00:57:46,555
your intent. And for me, my intent is always about

913
00:57:46,555 –> 00:57:50,080
unleashing someone’s potential, Helping

914
00:57:50,080 –> 00:57:53,460
someone see a path towards thriving.

915
00:57:54,240 –> 00:57:57,994
And not about wanting to change them Or have

916
00:57:57,994 –> 00:58:01,775
them see my way, but more about providing information

917
00:58:01,914 –> 00:58:05,515
that may help them to see a potential that they never saw

918
00:58:05,515 –> 00:58:09,200
before. Yeah. And that’s what I

919
00:58:09,200 –> 00:58:12,339
love. I had alluded to earlier when

920
00:58:12,960 –> 00:58:16,099
about Hemingway is I don’t feel like he’s judgmental

921
00:58:17,335 –> 00:58:21,095
About yeah. He kind of receives people where

922
00:58:21,095 –> 00:58:24,935
they are, you know, and that’s what’s so

923
00:58:24,935 –> 00:58:28,760
fun about him. Right? Well, and when you, when you

924
00:58:28,760 –> 00:58:32,440
receive people. So I think of, I think of,

925
00:58:32,840 –> 00:58:35,820
talking about receiving people as they are. I think of a character

926
00:58:37,125 –> 00:58:40,964
that probably wouldn’t work. You talked about Charlie Sheen on Two and

927
00:58:40,964 –> 00:58:44,485
a Half Men. And again, relating this to

928
00:58:44,485 –> 00:58:48,190
television, movies, Books, there’s something in fiction we can draw from it that

929
00:58:48,190 –> 00:58:51,970
applied real life here. Right. A character like Andy Sipowicz

930
00:58:52,190 –> 00:58:55,675
as he was written on NYPD Blue played by the great Dennis Franz.

931
00:58:55,895 –> 00:58:59,415
Okay? You can’t get that guy on

932
00:58:59,415 –> 00:59:02,910
television now. You just can’t get that

933
00:59:02,910 –> 00:59:06,750
guy. Hey, that guy’s character, that,

934
00:59:06,750 –> 00:59:10,510
actually, not even that guy, that character as it was written wouldn’t make it out

935
00:59:10,510 –> 00:59:14,045
of most writer’s rooms, and it wouldn’t even walk

936
00:59:14,045 –> 00:59:17,265
in too much most writers’ rooms in people’s heads.

937
00:59:18,125 –> 00:59:21,940
And And I’m not saying that Steven Bochco and the writers that he hired for

938
00:59:21,940 –> 00:59:25,000
that show in the nineties were better.

939
00:59:25,704 –> 00:59:29,545
I’m merely saying that their life experience had at least a Bill Gordon

940
00:59:29,545 –> 00:59:33,305
in it. Mhmm. Where I am concerned is how many

941
00:59:33,305 –> 00:59:36,970
folks’ life experiences don’t at least have 1 person

942
00:59:36,970 –> 00:59:40,570
who’s not parenting whatever the

943
00:59:40,570 –> 00:59:43,755
terms of the day are. Or

944
00:59:44,935 –> 00:59:48,775
or alternatively, maybe this is the minority report, were all

945
00:59:48,775 –> 00:59:52,475
so wedded to, again, the algorithms of the social media

946
00:59:52,610 –> 00:59:56,370
forms that that’s where we’re getting our stuff from the day. And

947
00:59:56,370 –> 00:59:59,490
then even if we were to be the nail that sticks up that’s gonna get

948
00:59:59,490 –> 01:00:02,825
hammered down, We’re not getting hammered down by our peers.

949
01:00:03,204 –> 01:00:06,665
They don’t need to. We’re getting hammered down by what’s in the algorithm.

950
01:00:07,900 –> 01:00:11,180
That’s where we’re getting hammered down. And, again, that’s that’s that’s sort of I wanna

951
01:00:11,180 –> 01:00:14,915
close the loop on that thought that I started with before you spoke

952
01:00:14,915 –> 01:00:18,675
there before you responded, is I’m I’m seeking to do with this podcast, something that

953
01:00:18,675 –> 01:00:22,435
is something that’s that’s the nail that sticks up. Right? And that won’t

954
01:00:22,435 –> 01:00:26,000
be hammered down. And so I’ve begun more and more to think

955
01:00:26,000 –> 01:00:29,280
that books like The Sun Also Rises or books like,

956
01:00:30,640 –> 01:00:34,305
War and Peace, which we we just read the introduction to that, last

957
01:00:34,305 –> 01:00:38,145
episode. And we’re gonna be pursuing that book all next year because it’s just

958
01:00:38,225 –> 01:00:41,920
it’s Tolstoy. It’s a beast, kids. It’s 1600

959
01:00:41,920 –> 01:00:45,680
pages. You know, there’s a lot

960
01:00:45,680 –> 01:00:49,494
there. Or City of God by Augustine, another book that

961
01:00:49,494 –> 01:00:52,855
we’ve been pursuing for the last couple of years, or

962
01:00:52,855 –> 01:00:56,474
Dickens or Willa Cather. These are books that,

963
01:00:56,760 –> 01:01:00,440
just like Dennis Franz, just like, or not Dennis Franz. Sorry. Just like Andy

964
01:01:00,440 –> 01:01:04,140
Sipowicz, just like Charlie Sheen’s character, just like Bill Gorton,

965
01:01:05,945 –> 01:01:09,405
just like, just like Kramer on Seinfeld.

966
01:01:09,865 –> 01:01:13,690
These are examples of things and

967
01:01:13,690 –> 01:01:17,050
ideas and people that refuse to be hammered down. And

968
01:01:17,050 –> 01:01:20,670
somebody somewhere has gotta be, gotta refuse to be hammered down.

969
01:01:21,025 –> 01:01:24,865
There has to be some pushback. Right? Even if it’s small, even if it’s

970
01:01:24,865 –> 01:01:28,680
a pinprick, there has to be some pushback in order

971
01:01:28,680 –> 01:01:32,440
to, to your point, unleash other folks’ potential. Someone has to

972
01:01:32,440 –> 01:01:36,255
show the way. And I don’t think I’m alone in

973
01:01:36,255 –> 01:01:39,135
this thought. I think there’s many other folks that are doing this in my space,

974
01:01:39,135 –> 01:01:42,575
so I I take heart from that. But I do think it is an uphill

975
01:01:42,575 –> 01:01:46,310
an uphill battle, as my father used to say both ways

976
01:01:46,770 –> 01:01:50,130
to school. It is,

977
01:01:50,130 –> 01:01:53,684
but If you don’t

978
01:01:53,684 –> 01:01:57,285
try Yeah. You know, then it is

979
01:01:57,285 –> 01:02:01,030
certainly about a lost, Yeah. But if

980
01:02:01,030 –> 01:02:04,550
you just, you know, continue to do what you believe is right, you

981
01:02:04,550 –> 01:02:07,910
know, you may be being heard and

982
01:02:07,910 –> 01:02:11,595
observed and planting Seeds that you

983
01:02:11,595 –> 01:02:15,135
don’t see, you know, grow or flourish

984
01:02:15,275 –> 01:02:19,115
until, you know, months or years or, you know, or

985
01:02:19,115 –> 01:02:22,760
decades, Decades past, but that’s where we

986
01:02:22,760 –> 01:02:26,120
just need to be patient and you just need to do what you know is

987
01:02:26,120 –> 01:02:29,785
the right thing and to come at it from Honestly, to come

988
01:02:29,785 –> 01:02:32,665
at it from a place of love and positive intent Mhmm.

989
01:02:33,385 –> 01:02:37,145
Versus, you know, anger or shaming. Yeah. Because anger or shaming will

990
01:02:37,145 –> 01:02:40,900
shut Folks down and they won’t hear anything at all. Right.

991
01:02:41,140 –> 01:02:44,820
But if you are coming from a place of positive intent and love, you actually

992
01:02:44,820 –> 01:02:48,464
don’t have the judgment. You’re doing it for you you’re doing it because you

993
01:02:48,464 –> 01:02:52,065
believe it’s in their best interest. That doesn’t mean that you don’t

994
01:02:52,065 –> 01:02:55,520
know how to take care of yourself. You’re not the that this is

995
01:02:55,520 –> 01:02:59,280
where the Robert Cohn, like being a boxer, like,

996
01:02:59,280 –> 01:03:02,980
you know, you you still know, like, just because you’re kind

997
01:03:03,615 –> 01:03:07,295
And loving and, you know, and thinking of others

998
01:03:07,295 –> 01:03:11,055
doesn’t mean you can’t take care of yourself. Right? I told my I I tell

999
01:03:11,055 –> 01:03:14,710
my daughters, like, you could be good, That’s fine, be good,

1000
01:03:15,089 –> 01:03:18,609
but don’t be naive, and don’t be- That’s right,

1001
01:03:18,609 –> 01:03:22,075
exactly, exactly. And don’t be, don’t be

1002
01:03:22,075 –> 01:03:25,755
defenseless, basically. Yeah. Otherwise, you’ll have Harvard, and

1003
01:03:25,755 –> 01:03:28,815
what’s happening at Harvard happened. That’s called my invite.

1004
01:03:30,650 –> 01:03:34,270
It is indeed. Yeah. I told you it’s like a bull.

1005
01:03:34,650 –> 01:03:37,390
It’s a flag for the bull. It’s a red flag.

1006
01:03:38,785 –> 01:03:42,465
I can’t. It’s okay. My eye off of it, Jake. For

1007
01:03:42,465 –> 01:03:46,225
those of you listening today on this episode, I am wearing a

1008
01:03:46,225 –> 01:03:50,049
Harvard pullover. I did not go to

1009
01:03:50,049 –> 01:03:53,890
Harvard. I do know many people who went to Harvard. I’ve known

1010
01:03:53,890 –> 01:03:57,724
many fine people from Harvard. To paraphrase from our

1011
01:03:57,724 –> 01:04:01,025
former president Donald Trump, there’s many fine people there at Harvard,

1012
01:04:03,540 –> 01:04:07,080
and that’s all I’ll say about that. I’ll tell you. It is it

1013
01:04:08,100 –> 01:04:11,080
is waving in front of Libby, like a,

1014
01:04:12,805 –> 01:04:15,395
A red flag for that. A red flag. A bullfighter.

1015
01:04:18,700 –> 01:04:22,460
Speaking of bullfighting. As a tourist, I y’all just add

1016
01:04:22,460 –> 01:04:26,214
another layer. That’s probably yeah. Taurus with the red flag. I can’t

1017
01:04:26,214 –> 01:04:29,415
ignore it. She can’t she can’t ignore it. She cannot ignore it. By the way,

1018
01:04:29,415 –> 01:04:31,974
one last point, and then we’re gonna we’re gonna go back to the book. One

1019
01:04:31,974 –> 01:04:35,350
last point, I found it ironic, and I thought you would Appreciate this as a

1020
01:04:35,350 –> 01:04:39,190
person with a background in in finance and moving money around. I did

1021
01:04:39,190 –> 01:04:42,170
find it interesting that Bill Gorton’s creditors

1022
01:04:42,935 –> 01:04:46,475
always knew where he was. By the way, so did Robert Cohn’s creditors,

1023
01:04:46,775 –> 01:04:50,075
Jake’s creditors. The women couldn’t find them.

1024
01:04:51,160 –> 01:04:54,680
The nation state couldn’t find them. United States of America couldn’t find Jake

1025
01:04:54,680 –> 01:04:57,420
Barnes anywhere in Europe when he was in Europe.

1026
01:04:58,040 –> 01:05:01,404
But But the bank where he owed

1027
01:05:01,404 –> 01:05:04,065
money, they knew where the hell he was all the time.

1028
01:05:05,484 –> 01:05:08,869
I found that to be ironic and

1029
01:05:08,869 –> 01:05:11,690
interesting. Back to the book,

1030
01:05:12,790 –> 01:05:15,530
back to The Sun Also Rises, we’re gonna move forward

1031
01:05:16,994 –> 01:05:20,214
to chapter 13. We’re gonna read a section here,

1032
01:05:21,875 –> 01:05:25,299
about talent. Particularly

1033
01:05:25,519 –> 01:05:28,980
Talent Inn, as Libby brought up earlier, Talent in bullfighting.

1034
01:05:29,440 –> 01:05:33,140
This is during their Spanish Pamplona trip.

1035
01:05:35,105 –> 01:05:38,145
We got into Pamplona late in the afternoon to the bus stop in front of

1036
01:05:38,145 –> 01:05:41,505
the Hotel Montoya. Out of the plaza, they were stringing

1037
01:05:41,505 –> 01:05:44,610
electric light wires to light the plaza for the Fiesta.

1038
01:05:45,650 –> 01:05:48,930
A few kids came up when the bus stopped, and a customs officer for the

1039
01:05:48,930 –> 01:05:52,130
town made all the people getting down from the bus open their bundles on the

1040
01:05:52,130 –> 01:05:55,765
sidewalk. We went into the hotel, out of the stairs, I met Montoya. He shook

1041
01:05:55,765 –> 01:05:59,525
hands with us smiling in his embarrassed way. Your friends are

1042
01:05:59,525 –> 01:06:03,300
here, he said. Mister Campbell? Yes. Mister Cohn and mister

1043
01:06:03,300 –> 01:06:06,840
Campbell and Lady Ashley. He smiled as though there were something

1044
01:06:06,980 –> 01:06:10,775
I would hear about. Where did they get in? Yesterday. I’ve

1045
01:06:10,775 –> 01:06:14,535
saved you the rooms you had. That’s fine. Did you give mister Campbell the room

1046
01:06:14,535 –> 01:06:17,890
on the plaza? Yes. All the rooms we looked at. Where are our friends

1047
01:06:17,890 –> 01:06:21,510
now? I think they went to the pelota. And how about the bulls?

1048
01:06:22,049 –> 01:06:25,785
Montoya smiled. Tonight, he said. Tonight at 7 o’clock, they bring in the

1049
01:06:25,785 –> 01:06:28,925
Villarobos, and tomorrow come the Mjollors. Do you wanna go down?

1050
01:06:29,625 –> 01:06:33,465
Oh, yes. I’ve never seen, Desen Cajon

1051
01:06:33,465 –> 01:06:37,290
de Rada, And I butchered that terribly folks, sorry. But Doya

1052
01:06:37,290 –> 01:06:40,670
put his hand on my shoulder. I’ll see you there. He smiled again.

1053
01:06:41,265 –> 01:06:45,025
He always smiled as though bullfighter were a very special secret

1054
01:06:45,025 –> 01:06:48,865
between the 2 of us. A rather shocking, but really very deep secret that

1055
01:06:48,865 –> 01:06:52,549
we knew about. He always smiled as though there were something lewd about the secret

1056
01:06:52,549 –> 01:06:56,390
to outsiders, but that it was something that we understood. It would

1057
01:06:56,390 –> 01:07:00,135
not do to expose it to people who would not understand Your friend,

1058
01:07:00,135 –> 01:07:03,495
he is an aficionado too. Montoya smiled at

1059
01:07:03,495 –> 01:07:06,955
Bill. Yes. He came all the way from New York to see the San Franines.

1060
01:07:07,630 –> 01:07:11,410
Yes, Montoya politely disbelieved, but he is not the aficionado

1061
01:07:11,630 –> 01:07:14,930
like you. He put his hand on my shoulder again, embarrassedly.

1062
01:07:15,535 –> 01:07:19,375
Yes, I said he’s a real aficionado, but he’s not aficionado like

1063
01:07:19,375 –> 01:07:23,109
you are. Officione means passion. An

1064
01:07:23,109 –> 01:07:26,250
aficionado is one who is passionate about the bullfights.

1065
01:07:27,030 –> 01:07:30,390
All the good bullfighters stayed at Montoya’s hotel, that is those with

1066
01:07:30,390 –> 01:07:34,045
officion stayed there. The commercial bullfighter stayed once,

1067
01:07:34,045 –> 01:07:37,565
perhaps, and they did not come back. The good ones came each year. In

1068
01:07:37,565 –> 01:07:41,190
Montoya’s room were their photographs. The photographs were dedicated

1069
01:07:41,190 –> 01:07:44,810
to Juanito Montoya or to his sister. The photographs of

1070
01:07:45,110 –> 01:07:48,410
the bullfighters Montoya had really believed in were framed.

1071
01:07:48,895 –> 01:07:52,575
Photographs of bullfighters who had been without officiante, Montoya kept in a drawer of his

1072
01:07:52,575 –> 01:07:56,255
desk. They often had the most flattering inscriptions, but they did not

1073
01:07:56,255 –> 01:07:59,710
mean anything. One day, Montoya took them all out and dropped them in a

1074
01:07:59,710 –> 01:08:02,290
wastebasket. He did not want them around.

1075
01:08:03,950 –> 01:08:07,775
We often talked about bulls and bullfighters. I had stopped at the Montoya for

1076
01:08:07,775 –> 01:08:11,535
several years. We never talked for very long at a time. It was simply the

1077
01:08:11,535 –> 01:08:15,119
pleasure of discovering what we each felt. Men would come in from distant

1078
01:08:15,119 –> 01:08:18,399
towns before they left Pamplona to stop and talk for a few minutes with Madoya

1079
01:08:18,399 –> 01:08:22,185
about bulls. These men were aficionados. Those who

1080
01:08:22,185 –> 01:08:25,484
were aficionados could always get rooms even when the hotel was full.

1081
01:08:25,865 –> 01:08:29,625
Montoya introduced me to some of them. They were always very polite at first. They

1082
01:08:29,625 –> 01:08:33,240
didn’t abuse them very much I should be an American. Somehow it was taken for

1083
01:08:33,240 –> 01:08:37,000
granted that an American could not have officiant. He might simulate

1084
01:08:37,000 –> 01:08:40,300
it or confuse it with excitement, but he could not really have it.

1085
01:08:40,825 –> 01:08:44,505
When they saw that I had officiant and there was no password, no

1086
01:08:44,505 –> 01:08:47,645
set questions, I could bring it out, rather it was a sort of oral spiritual

1087
01:08:47,785 –> 01:08:51,540
examination with the questions always a little on the defensive and never apparent.

1088
01:08:51,760 –> 01:08:55,200
There was always the same embarrassed putting of the hand on the shoulder, alright,

1089
01:08:55,200 –> 01:08:59,005
buen hombre. But nearly always, there was the actual

1090
01:08:59,005 –> 01:09:02,385
touching. It seemed as though they wanted to touch you to make it certain.

1091
01:09:04,000 –> 01:09:07,460
Montoya could forgive anything of a bullfighter who had officiant.

1092
01:09:08,080 –> 01:09:11,785
He could forgive attacks of nerves, panic, bad

1093
01:09:11,785 –> 01:09:15,625
unexplainable actions, all sorts of lapses. For one who had

1094
01:09:15,625 –> 01:09:19,305
officion, he could forgive anything. At once, he forgave me all

1095
01:09:19,305 –> 01:09:22,880
my friends. Without his ever saying anything, they were

1096
01:09:22,880 –> 01:09:26,560
simply a little something shameful between us, like the spilling

1097
01:09:26,560 –> 01:09:29,779
open of the horses in bullfighting.

1098
01:09:38,545 –> 01:09:42,100
Short clip there, but something very important in his

1099
01:09:42,100 –> 01:09:45,560
description of official, his description of passion.

1100
01:09:47,699 –> 01:09:51,465
From bullfighting, to boxing, to writing novels,

1101
01:09:52,005 –> 01:09:55,445
from drinking, to romancing women, from the

1102
01:09:55,445 –> 01:09:57,785
aforementioned boxing, all the way even to fishing.

1103
01:09:59,250 –> 01:10:02,769
Hemingway wants you to understand something in The Sun Also Rises that I think a

1104
01:10:02,769 –> 01:10:06,309
lot of people miss. Misfocus talent

1105
01:10:06,449 –> 01:10:10,155
is corrupted when baser appetites assert themselves.

1106
01:10:14,215 –> 01:10:17,850
During their time in Spain, the characters in The Sun Also Rises,

1107
01:10:17,910 –> 01:10:21,590
Jake and Lady Ashley and Bill Gordon and Robert

1108
01:10:21,590 –> 01:10:25,405
Cohn and Mike Campbell and the whole crew, they

1109
01:10:25,405 –> 01:10:29,085
ended up enjoying a lot of things. They were involved in a lot of decadence,

1110
01:10:29,085 –> 01:10:31,745
but those things ended up destroying them.

1111
01:10:35,390 –> 01:10:39,070
And Hemingway in this book wrestles with writing the

1112
01:10:39,070 –> 01:10:42,750
truth as he sees it, but also judging it and and condemning the

1113
01:10:42,750 –> 01:10:46,235
results of that truth played out in the lives of the people around him.

1114
01:10:47,735 –> 01:10:51,490
And Hemingway only really judged them in terms of the work. And

1115
01:10:51,490 –> 01:10:55,010
you can see this in his relationship with F. Scott Fitzgerald. This is very

1116
01:10:55,010 –> 01:10:58,790
important. People don’t understand this. The knock on Hemingway

1117
01:10:58,930 –> 01:11:02,295
is that somehow he ruined Fitzgerald. No.

1118
01:11:02,594 –> 01:11:06,275
Fitzgerald ruined himself, and

1119
01:11:06,275 –> 01:11:09,715
all Hemingway did this is not a defense of Hemingway, this is an

1120
01:11:09,715 –> 01:11:13,380
explanation. All Hemingway did was he held up a mirror to Fitzgerald

1121
01:11:13,520 –> 01:11:17,120
and said, look in the mirror, look at where the

1122
01:11:17,120 –> 01:11:20,845
consequences of your choices are going to take you. There’s a great

1123
01:11:20,845 –> 01:11:22,625
essay in A Movable Feast,

1124
01:11:24,205 –> 01:11:27,830
where he talks about Zelda

1125
01:11:27,830 –> 01:11:31,430
being crazy, except he doesn’t use that term, and how she’s

1126
01:11:31,430 –> 01:11:35,135
talking to him about something and he watches her eyes change. And he

1127
01:11:35,135 –> 01:11:38,914
realizes that Fitzgerald isn’t going to be a great writer anymore because,

1128
01:11:39,454 –> 01:11:43,054
to paraphrase Removable Feast, auks do not

1129
01:11:43,054 –> 01:11:43,554
share.

1130
01:11:47,280 –> 01:11:50,960
When you make a decision as an artist about who you’re going to make a

1131
01:11:50,960 –> 01:11:54,135
life with, When you make a decision about who you’re going to get into a

1132
01:11:54,135 –> 01:11:57,655
relationship with as one of these bullfighters, which we’re gonna read in the next

1133
01:11:57,655 –> 01:12:01,380
section, makes a decision to get all mixed up with lady Brett

1134
01:12:01,380 –> 01:12:05,000
Ashley, and almost loses his stuff.

1135
01:12:05,619 –> 01:12:09,205
When you make a decision about that, that has consequences, and

1136
01:12:09,205 –> 01:12:13,045
Hemingway really believed that. Now, if we look

1137
01:12:13,045 –> 01:12:16,760
at Hemingway the writer and we look at Hemingway the man, he

1138
01:12:16,760 –> 01:12:20,540
was no moral, moral avatar

1139
01:12:20,680 –> 01:12:24,360
here. Let’s just be frank. The man had 3,

1140
01:12:24,360 –> 01:12:28,185
maybe it was 4 ex wives, multiple lovers. He

1141
01:12:28,185 –> 01:12:31,805
was the Pablo Picasso of, of the literary world. He,

1142
01:12:31,905 –> 01:12:35,550
he, he made relationships and disposed of women and

1143
01:12:35,550 –> 01:12:38,690
children, just as quickly as he possibly could.

1144
01:12:40,430 –> 01:12:44,270
And yet, he did it because he wanted, just like Pablo

1145
01:12:44,270 –> 01:12:48,034
Picasso, to subsume everything to

1146
01:12:48,034 –> 01:12:51,795
the art, because the art was the thing, whether

1147
01:12:51,795 –> 01:12:55,380
the art is writing or painting bulls

1148
01:12:56,480 –> 01:12:57,700
dying at Guernica.

1149
01:13:00,400 –> 01:13:03,795
Talent unmoored from a moral core though, and this is my

1150
01:13:03,795 –> 01:13:07,235
judgment against Hemingway, wafts in the wind a little

1151
01:13:07,235 –> 01:13:10,595
bit. And again, you saw this with Picasso, but you also saw with Gertrude

1152
01:13:10,595 –> 01:13:14,350
Stein. And Hemingway was

1153
01:13:14,350 –> 01:13:18,110
writing his this novel, The Sun Also Rises, in the middle of

1154
01:13:18,110 –> 01:13:21,790
the wave that was coming through, that started in the 18 eighties in

1155
01:13:21,790 –> 01:13:24,594
Europe. Of the wave of the modernist nihilism.

1156
01:13:25,614 –> 01:13:29,235
That again, it started 50 years before with Nietzsche, and it sort of

1157
01:13:30,239 –> 01:13:33,920
not even really come to its apotheosis with World War one. It was just

1158
01:13:33,920 –> 01:13:37,599
beginning to come to its apotheosis and wouldn’t really come to its

1159
01:13:37,599 –> 01:13:41,265
apotheosis in rants until after World War 2,

1160
01:13:41,325 –> 01:13:45,085
when they were utterly destroyed by nihilism taken

1161
01:13:45,085 –> 01:13:47,745
to its logical end.

1162
01:13:50,239 –> 01:13:53,840
He was writing in the middle of that dynamic, and then on the

1163
01:13:53,840 –> 01:13:56,659
other side of that was the dynamic of Marxism.

1164
01:13:57,335 –> 01:14:01,015
And I’ve often said it

1165
01:14:01,015 –> 01:14:04,395
mostly when we talk about Alexander Solzhenitsyn and the Gulag Archipelago

1166
01:14:04,695 –> 01:14:08,440
and other Marxist writers are Marxist dissenters, but

1167
01:14:08,440 –> 01:14:12,039
I don’t blame anybody for believing that Marxism could work between

1168
01:14:12,039 –> 01:14:15,805
like 18/80 and 1950. I don’t blame any of those people because

1169
01:14:15,805 –> 01:14:19,505
they didn’t have the evidence that we have post 1950 that Marxism

1170
01:14:19,565 –> 01:14:23,005
clearly does not work. Not just

1171
01:14:23,005 –> 01:14:26,570
communism, the ideology of Marxism does not

1172
01:14:26,570 –> 01:14:29,929
work. It doesn’t work anywhere where it’s

1173
01:14:29,929 –> 01:14:33,635
applied, it doesn’t work anywhere where it’s tried, and it infects everything

1174
01:14:33,635 –> 01:14:36,995
like a disease. Well, people didn’t know that in

1175
01:14:36,995 –> 01:14:40,535
1923, they didn’t know that in The Sun Also Rises.

1176
01:14:40,790 –> 01:14:44,390
It was it seemed like a new thing, like a new experiment. And

1177
01:14:44,390 –> 01:14:47,830
Hemingway is writing in that

1178
01:14:47,830 –> 01:14:51,335
milieu as well. And he’s trying to place his

1179
01:14:51,335 –> 01:14:52,875
talent in that spot.

1180
01:14:55,574 –> 01:14:57,915
Miskin folk misfocus and misconstrued

1181
01:14:59,255 –> 01:15:02,630
and misplaced talent can be corrupted by worldly

1182
01:15:02,630 –> 01:15:03,130
appetites.

1183
01:15:06,150 –> 01:15:09,855
Libby, this is something that leaders struggle with on the

1184
01:15:09,855 –> 01:15:13,535
regular, is where to place their talents and how to avoid them being

1185
01:15:13,535 –> 01:15:16,755
corrupted by the the Sturm und Drang, right,

1186
01:15:17,160 –> 01:15:20,920
of the world that they are in, the

1187
01:15:20,920 –> 01:15:24,360
forces battering against them. How can leaders with

1188
01:15:24,360 –> 01:15:27,965
talent take

1189
01:15:27,965 –> 01:15:31,645
action and and spot spot the corruption of their talent or

1190
01:15:31,645 –> 01:15:35,120
spot the things that will corrupt their talent or corrupt their focus. And then how

1191
01:15:35,120 –> 01:15:38,480
can they take action against those things? How do they how do they

1192
01:15:38,480 –> 01:15:41,920
preserve their, to use the Spanish word, their

1193
01:15:41,920 –> 01:15:45,585
officion, their passion. Right?

1194
01:15:49,725 –> 01:15:53,560
This is a a theme that I’ve Communicated a couple of

1195
01:15:53,560 –> 01:15:55,820
times through our past episodes.

1196
01:15:57,560 –> 01:16:01,340
But and, you know, and wanted to touch on earlier,

1197
01:16:02,825 –> 01:16:06,285
with, you know, around conformity or challenging conformity

1198
01:16:06,425 –> 01:16:10,265
is the, you know, the willingness to walk yeah, to stand alone and

1199
01:16:10,265 –> 01:16:13,910
to walk alone. And,

1200
01:16:14,770 –> 01:16:18,390
your tribal thinking, gets you

1201
01:16:19,010 –> 01:16:22,435
from kind of Losing sight of the

1202
01:16:22,435 –> 01:16:26,035
original you. Mhmm. Losing sight of your

1203
01:16:26,035 –> 01:16:29,650
morals and values, and choosing the

1204
01:16:29,710 –> 01:16:32,530
the tribe over your your morals,

1205
01:16:34,270 –> 01:16:37,825
your personal integrity. And you need To

1206
01:16:37,825 –> 01:16:40,085
be willing to walk alone,

1207
01:16:43,105 –> 01:16:46,719
if you’re going to challenge Kind of the status

1208
01:16:46,719 –> 01:16:50,400
quo and or the morals behind the way things

1209
01:16:50,400 –> 01:16:52,420
are being being done.

1210
01:16:58,885 –> 01:17:02,620
So I all I believe that you always, As a

1211
01:17:02,620 –> 01:17:05,840
leader need to be, you know, questioning you know,

1212
01:17:06,300 –> 01:17:09,680
1, have a strong mission, have a strong,

1213
01:17:10,220 –> 01:17:13,725
set of goals and objectives, And have, you

1214
01:17:13,725 –> 01:17:17,565
know, a strong value statement as we mentioned

1215
01:17:17,565 –> 01:17:20,580
before we got on the podcast Google. Mhmm.

1216
01:17:21,300 –> 01:17:24,980
Don’t be evil. Apparently, that’s

1217
01:17:24,980 –> 01:17:28,675
okay now. You know, you know, But

1218
01:17:28,675 –> 01:17:32,375
they were clearly challenging themselves around not being evil,

1219
01:17:32,435 –> 01:17:35,255
you know, early on in their business. But

1220
01:17:36,170 –> 01:17:39,770
Having those written is different than actually having it embedded in the

1221
01:17:39,770 –> 01:17:43,210
culture, but as long as you have the mechanisms in

1222
01:17:43,210 –> 01:17:47,035
place to continue be reevaluating what you’re

1223
01:17:47,035 –> 01:17:50,335
doing against your mission, your objectives, values,

1224
01:17:52,810 –> 01:17:55,070
And you

1225
01:17:57,449 –> 01:18:00,885
see something emerge That may

1226
01:18:00,885 –> 01:18:04,325
threaten kind of your competitive position in business, your

1227
01:18:04,325 –> 01:18:06,425
financial positioning in business.

1228
01:18:09,410 –> 01:18:11,989
You need like leaders need to make the tough decisions,

1229
01:18:13,650 –> 01:18:17,330
do not go against what you stand for or doing the right

1230
01:18:17,330 –> 01:18:20,905
thing In pursuit of maybe being

1231
01:18:21,364 –> 01:18:25,125
competitive or financial in the short you know, financially viable in

1232
01:18:25,125 –> 01:18:28,050
the short term. Yeah. So it is always

1233
01:18:28,990 –> 01:18:32,830
about being vigilant about your your mission, your goals, and

1234
01:18:32,830 –> 01:18:36,035
your and your values, and this is even on a personal level

1235
01:18:36,275 –> 01:18:39,575
2. If you don’t have the mechanisms in place,

1236
01:18:40,435 –> 01:18:43,655
you know, to to make sure that you’re continuously

1237
01:18:43,875 –> 01:18:47,440
reevaluating that, You can be shifting the goal

1238
01:18:47,440 –> 01:18:49,940
lines on a subconscious level

1239
01:18:51,040 –> 01:18:54,740
very easily to the point where you may have actually sacrificed

1240
01:18:55,475 –> 01:18:58,775
You have a bit of your integrity here and a bit of it here

1241
01:18:59,475 –> 01:19:02,455
to the point where when you wake up,

1242
01:19:03,760 –> 01:19:06,740
You’ve sacrificed your integrity

1243
01:19:07,440 –> 01:19:11,140
quite a bit. Mhmm. And some some will choose

1244
01:19:11,360 –> 01:19:14,994
instead of Admitting they were wrong or they went

1245
01:19:14,994 –> 01:19:18,054
down a wrong a wrong path because being wrong,

1246
01:19:18,994 –> 01:19:22,420
especially today, Can get you, like, canceled

1247
01:19:22,559 –> 01:19:25,059
or ostracized and and questioned.

1248
01:19:27,119 –> 01:19:30,705
Many, And we see this a lot nowadays, will continue to

1249
01:19:30,705 –> 01:19:34,065
double down even, you know, at the cost of their

1250
01:19:34,065 –> 01:19:37,680
soul. Yeah. Because they

1251
01:19:37,680 –> 01:19:41,200
are weren’t willing to admit that they were wrong. Now when I talk

1252
01:19:41,200 –> 01:19:44,960
about mechanisms in place, you know, from a business perspective,

1253
01:19:44,960 –> 01:19:48,665
we have a lot of great in place. A lot of people

1254
01:19:48,665 –> 01:19:52,425
don’t like the discipline associated with, you know,

1255
01:19:52,425 –> 01:19:55,940
those recurring management meetings, those recurring, like, Types of

1256
01:19:55,940 –> 01:19:57,960
reports, those recurring conversations,

1257
01:19:59,300 –> 01:20:03,060
but that discipline is actually what keeps

1258
01:20:03,060 –> 01:20:05,514
you on course. Right.

1259
01:20:07,275 –> 01:20:10,635
You know, so I’m getting specific in a business

1260
01:20:10,635 –> 01:20:14,409
perspective, but In a life

1261
01:20:14,550 –> 01:20:18,389
perspective, I also have disciplines. Yeah. I work out

1262
01:20:18,389 –> 01:20:21,885
every single day. Right. I yeah. And,

1263
01:20:21,885 –> 01:20:25,645
like, I I work out like I brush my teeth. It’s not a if

1264
01:20:25,645 –> 01:20:29,290
I’m going to or when, I do. Yep. And that’s a

1265
01:20:29,290 –> 01:20:32,890
moment of quiet and solitude and self reflection, you

1266
01:20:32,890 –> 01:20:36,455
know. Are there other moments, you know, On a regular

1267
01:20:36,455 –> 01:20:39,595
basis that you’re constantly reevaluating.

1268
01:20:40,375 –> 01:20:43,869
If you’re feeling sad or remorseful for For

1269
01:20:43,869 –> 01:20:47,469
me, it’s even a moment, like, what is the you know,

1270
01:20:47,469 –> 01:20:51,150
what’s causing that and being reflexive about it. But if, you

1271
01:20:51,150 –> 01:20:54,864
know, If you have something that’s happening, like, maybe

1272
01:20:55,085 –> 01:20:58,545
you’re, feeling lonely or depressed,

1273
01:20:58,980 –> 01:21:01,640
Yeah. Words I don’t really know anymore. Mhmm.

1274
01:21:03,140 –> 01:21:06,739
But if you’re seeing that extend behind what would be a

1275
01:21:06,739 –> 01:21:10,525
normal cycle, What what could be the root cause for

1276
01:21:10,525 –> 01:21:14,365
that? Where are you, like, self evaluating? So I said a

1277
01:21:14,365 –> 01:21:18,099
lot in there, but Well, you the 2 things

1278
01:21:18,099 –> 01:21:21,380
you said or the 1 thing you said there, and then I wanna key off

1279
01:21:21,380 –> 01:21:24,885
on a little bit. You know, In that passage, where he’s talking about

1280
01:21:24,885 –> 01:21:28,405
bullfighting and being an aficionado, officio means

1281
01:21:28,405 –> 01:21:31,950
passion. Okay. One of the

1282
01:21:31,950 –> 01:21:35,250
worst pieces of advice we give college students is follow your

1283
01:21:35,950 –> 01:21:39,170
passion. It’s one of the worst pieces of advice ever.

1284
01:21:40,765 –> 01:21:43,265
We don’t say follow your discipline

1285
01:21:45,245 –> 01:21:48,625
because that’s not as sexy. But

1286
01:21:49,850 –> 01:21:53,690
discipline plus passion gets you an outcome that’s greater than

1287
01:21:53,690 –> 01:21:57,290
either one of them alone. Correct. It’s art and

1288
01:21:57,290 –> 01:21:59,284
science combined. Right.

1289
01:22:04,625 –> 01:22:07,364
As a leader, how do you preserve your passion?

1290
01:22:08,440 –> 01:22:11,820
And and that’s not necessarily a how do you avoid burnout question.

1291
01:22:12,440 –> 01:22:16,200
It’s just how do you get up every day continuing to wanna

1292
01:22:16,200 –> 01:22:19,755
do the same thing. Or maybe it’s maybe it’s not even that. Maybe it’s more

1293
01:22:19,755 –> 01:22:23,594
of, does the at a

1294
01:22:23,594 –> 01:22:27,350
certain point, the passion and the discipline now merge together, and now you can’t tell

1295
01:22:27,350 –> 01:22:30,870
1 from the other. You can’t tell I can’t tell 1 from the other because

1296
01:22:30,870 –> 01:22:34,390
the the discipline is the how. Yeah. Right. And it’s so

1297
01:22:34,390 –> 01:22:37,735
ingrained. You know, for me, It’s just a way of being,

1298
01:22:38,355 –> 01:22:42,034
but, you know, I had to learn those practices over time and

1299
01:22:42,034 –> 01:22:45,690
what works and what doesn’t. Yep. But the way,

1300
01:22:46,870 –> 01:22:50,630
you know, for me it’s always about staying curious and one of the things

1301
01:22:50,630 –> 01:22:54,385
I fundamentally, you Yep. My 2 belief structures,

1302
01:22:54,605 –> 01:22:58,365
especially now, where they they’re feeling

1303
01:22:58,365 –> 01:23:01,885
challenged quite a bit by what we’re seeing is I refuse to

1304
01:23:01,885 –> 01:23:05,489
hate, Mhmm. And I refuse to lose my curiosity.

1305
01:23:06,750 –> 01:23:10,429
And, you know, curiosity is always, like,

1306
01:23:10,429 –> 01:23:14,255
it’s at that seeking to understand, and

1307
01:23:14,255 –> 01:23:18,014
that to me has always been the drive. It’s like, what

1308
01:23:18,014 –> 01:23:21,074
can I learn next? What don’t I know? You know?

1309
01:23:22,139 –> 01:23:25,980
And for many people, like, admitting that they don’t know something feels

1310
01:23:25,980 –> 01:23:29,735
like they aren’t the expert or they’re not, you know, Or they’re not

1311
01:23:29,735 –> 01:23:33,175
valuable or or whatever. For me,

1312
01:23:33,175 –> 01:23:36,934
like like, that’s the pursuit of mastery, and

1313
01:23:36,934 –> 01:23:40,270
the aficionado is the pursuit of mastery

1314
01:23:40,890 –> 01:23:43,790
and that, you know, curiosity and discipline.

1315
01:23:45,610 –> 01:23:49,045
You know, so as as Jocko would say, Like, discipline

1316
01:23:49,265 –> 01:23:53,105
is freedom because when it’s yeah. When you’ve when you

1317
01:23:53,105 –> 01:23:56,005
have that discipline, you’re, like,

1318
01:23:56,800 –> 01:24:00,480
It’s your muscle memory. It’s not work. You know, for people who don’t

1319
01:24:00,480 –> 01:24:01,300
have discipline,

1320
01:24:04,400 –> 01:24:07,995
you know, I don’t like, You’re having to think through doing things on a repeated

1321
01:24:07,995 –> 01:24:10,655
basis. Oh, that sounds boring. Well,

1322
01:24:11,835 –> 01:24:14,335
they’re constant they’re using their decision.

1323
01:24:15,719 –> 01:24:19,099
You only have so much space for decisions in a day.

1324
01:24:19,400 –> 01:24:22,460
Mhmm. And your decision fatigue will be

1325
01:24:22,954 –> 01:24:26,574
Accelerated and elevated if you’re constantly having to recreate

1326
01:24:27,675 –> 01:24:31,114
your foundations, for do the way that you do

1327
01:24:31,114 –> 01:24:33,740
things. So discipline is freedom.

1328
01:24:35,480 –> 01:24:37,980
Discipline is freedom. Yeah. So,

1329
01:24:39,565 –> 01:24:43,245
Discipline is Freedom. Yeah. It’s and and and you talk about working out. I

1330
01:24:43,245 –> 01:24:47,025
mean, I work out 3 days a week. When I don’t go workout, you know,

1331
01:24:47,210 –> 01:24:50,810
Well, I work on more than that. But, I mean, like, when I don’t when

1332
01:24:50,810 –> 01:24:53,130
I go to go go to the gym and pick up heavy things and put

1333
01:24:53,130 –> 01:24:56,545
them down, you know, then my my day is off and then I’ve gotta

1334
01:24:56,545 –> 01:24:59,985
supplement it with something else. Right? I gotta move the boxes around.

1335
01:24:59,985 –> 01:25:03,630
Right? Or when

1336
01:25:03,630 –> 01:25:07,309
I don’t establish a rhythm with my, or when I’m out of

1337
01:25:07,309 –> 01:25:11,025
rhythm with my prayer or reflect or reflection life, that’s a discipline as well.

1338
01:25:11,585 –> 01:25:15,185
Then I’ve gotta adjust other things. And then, you know, you wind up in this

1339
01:25:15,344 –> 01:25:18,304
I wind up at least, and I know a lot of leaders do, wind up

1340
01:25:18,304 –> 01:25:21,130
it or I don’t know a lot of leaders, but people Wind up in the

1341
01:25:21,130 –> 01:25:24,730
space of you’re you’re literally pouring out of 1

1342
01:25:24,730 –> 01:25:28,570
1 box you just filled into another box that you’re trying to fill. And it’s

1343
01:25:28,570 –> 01:25:31,815
this this catch up mode. Right? It’s terrible.

1344
01:25:32,995 –> 01:25:36,675
And that’s because you’ve abandoned you’ve abandoned discipline in in for a particular

1345
01:25:36,675 –> 01:25:40,240
moment. Or I even see, you know, like, I’m someone who

1346
01:25:40,240 –> 01:25:44,080
takes tons of notes in meetings, but I never look at at them again. For

1347
01:25:44,080 –> 01:25:47,784
me, this the mechanism for of writing is what

1348
01:25:48,085 –> 01:25:51,625
burns it in my brain. And, but

1349
01:25:51,844 –> 01:25:55,660
I’ve tried, like, am I missing something? Because A lot of people,

1350
01:25:55,800 –> 01:25:59,640
you know, as a leader, a lot of other leaders, they don’t have, you know,

1351
01:25:59,640 –> 01:26:03,100
recurring management team meetings, you know, they don’t have standardized

1352
01:26:03,320 –> 01:26:06,995
ways Of checking progress against priorities or

1353
01:26:06,995 –> 01:26:10,435
reprioritizing. There isn’t a sense of

1354
01:26:10,435 –> 01:26:14,219
accountability and, you know, and, Yeah. They seem to be

1355
01:26:14,219 –> 01:26:17,840
knocking it out of the park from moving up the ladder perspective.

1356
01:26:18,860 –> 01:26:22,595
But the second that I start to do that. Yeah. I’m like, well, maybe

1357
01:26:22,595 –> 01:26:26,135
I test some of that and see what happens. It’s chaos

1358
01:26:27,395 –> 01:26:30,920
and it’s you know, Well, I call that kind of an

1359
01:26:30,920 –> 01:26:34,679
action an activity based environment. They’re

1360
01:26:34,679 –> 01:26:38,060
not delivering squat or they’re delivering

1361
01:26:38,725 –> 01:26:42,344
A third or a 1 20th of what you’re delivering

1362
01:26:42,885 –> 01:26:46,640
because they have so much wasted energy On all,

1363
01:26:46,780 –> 01:26:50,300
you know, the b s, on the fire drills, on, you know, not

1364
01:26:50,540 –> 01:26:54,000
on, you know, duplication of efforts or missing opportunities

1365
01:26:54,835 –> 01:26:58,675
For as the rest of us who do you have some discipline in that, you’re

1366
01:26:58,675 –> 01:27:02,375
able to produce so much more from a value

1367
01:27:02,435 –> 01:27:06,070
creation perspective Because you’re not wasting energy

1368
01:27:06,850 –> 01:27:10,450
on BS, on non value add activities. Yeah.

1369
01:27:10,450 –> 01:27:14,025
So, that’s where the discipline is freedom

1370
01:27:14,025 –> 01:27:17,465
perspective, but you need to create it so you’re not you just

1371
01:27:17,465 –> 01:27:20,880
do The basics and

1372
01:27:20,880 –> 01:27:24,000
not, constantly recreate it. But

1373
01:27:24,240 –> 01:27:27,620
Yep. Yep. Yeah. Regardless, the key is

1374
01:27:27,955 –> 01:27:31,094
Stay curious. Refuse to lose your curiosity.

1375
01:27:31,715 –> 01:27:35,335
Refuse to use your curiosity about your fellow man.

1376
01:27:35,550 –> 01:27:38,130
Refuse to lose your curiosity about,

1377
01:27:39,550 –> 01:27:43,170
get new products or new ways of doing things. Refuse

1378
01:27:43,310 –> 01:27:46,145
to assume Negative intent.

1379
01:27:48,125 –> 01:27:51,804
What don’t I understand about this person’s experience that has them

1380
01:27:51,804 –> 01:27:55,420
feeling a certain way? But Alright. I know we need to

1381
01:27:55,420 –> 01:27:58,940
move on. Yeah. No. No. No. Back to the book. Back we’re almost

1382
01:27:59,100 –> 01:28:02,060
yeah. We are returning the corner here. So back to the book, back to The

1383
01:28:02,060 –> 01:28:05,595
Sun Also Rises. We’re We’re gonna pick up in chapter 18 and talk

1384
01:28:05,595 –> 01:28:09,435
about well, talk about the different ways in which we

1385
01:28:09,435 –> 01:28:13,140
enter the bullring and the different talents we

1386
01:28:13,140 –> 01:28:15,480
find there that have officiant

1387
01:28:17,300 –> 01:28:21,054
and discipline. I looked through the

1388
01:28:21,054 –> 01:28:24,895
glasses and saw the 3 matadors. Romero was in the center, Belmont on

1389
01:28:24,895 –> 01:28:28,550
his left, Marcial on his right. Back of them were their

1390
01:28:28,550 –> 01:28:32,150
people and behind the bandit the banditrilios, back at the

1391
01:28:32,150 –> 01:28:35,865
passageway and in the open space of the corral, I saw the picadors. Romero

1392
01:28:35,865 –> 01:28:39,305
was wearing a black suit. His tricornered hat was low down over his eyes. I

1393
01:28:39,305 –> 01:28:43,085
could not see his face clearly under the hat, but it looked badly marked.

1394
01:28:43,145 –> 01:28:46,739
He was looking straight ahead. Graciel was smoking a

1395
01:28:46,739 –> 01:28:50,580
cigarette guardedly holding it in his hand. Belmont looked ahead, his face

1396
01:28:50,580 –> 01:28:54,420
wan in yellow, his lone wolf jaw out. He was looking at

1397
01:28:54,420 –> 01:28:58,025
nothing. Neither he nor Romero seemed to have anything in common with the others.

1398
01:28:58,244 –> 01:29:02,085
They were all alone. The president came in. There was hand clapping

1399
01:29:02,085 –> 01:29:04,905
above us in the grandstand and I handed the glasses to Brett.

1400
01:29:06,710 –> 01:29:08,790
There was applause. The music started. Brett looked through the glasses. Here, take them, she

1401
01:29:08,790 –> 01:29:12,470
said. Through the glasses, I saw Belmont speaking to Romero. Marcial

1402
01:29:12,470 –> 01:29:15,885
straightened up and dropped his cigarette and looking straight ahead, their heads back, their free

1403
01:29:15,885 –> 01:29:19,645
arms swinging, the 3 matadors walked out. And behind them

1404
01:29:19,645 –> 01:29:23,030
came all the procession, Opening out all striding in step, all the capes

1405
01:29:23,030 –> 01:29:26,550
furled, everybody with free arms swinging, and behind rode the picadors, their peaks

1406
01:29:26,550 –> 01:29:30,175
rising like lances. Behind all came the 2 trains of mules and the

1407
01:29:30,175 –> 01:29:34,015
bull riding the bullring servants. The matadors bowed holding their hats on

1408
01:29:34,015 –> 01:29:37,730
before the president’s box and then came over to the barrera below us. Pedro

1409
01:29:37,730 –> 01:29:41,409
Romero took off his gold bro his heavy gold brocaded cape and handed it

1410
01:29:41,409 –> 01:29:44,869
over the fence with a sword handler. He said something to the sword handler.

1411
01:29:45,185 –> 01:29:48,945
Close below us, we saw Romero’s lips were puffed. Both his eyes were discolored. His

1412
01:29:48,945 –> 01:29:52,705
face was discolored and swollen. The sword handler took the cape, looked up at

1413
01:29:52,705 –> 01:29:56,530
Brett, and came over to us and handed up the cape. Spread it out

1414
01:29:56,530 –> 01:30:00,290
in front of you, I said. Brett leaned forward. The cape was heavy and smoothly

1415
01:30:00,290 –> 01:30:03,595
stiff with gold. The sword handler looked back, shook his head, and said something. A

1416
01:30:03,595 –> 01:30:07,195
A man beside me leaned over toward Brett. He doesn’t want you to spread it,

1417
01:30:07,195 –> 01:30:10,635
he said. You should fold it and keep it on your lap. Brett folded the

1418
01:30:10,635 –> 01:30:14,309
heavy cape. Romero did not look up at us.

1419
01:30:14,309 –> 01:30:18,070
He was speaking to Belmont. Belmont had set his formal cape over to some friends.

1420
01:30:18,070 –> 01:30:21,269
He looked across at them and smiled. His wolf smile that was only with the

1421
01:30:21,269 –> 01:30:25,095
mouth. Romero leaned over the Barrera and

1422
01:30:25,095 –> 01:30:28,935
asked for a water jug. The sword handler brought it, and Romero poured water

1423
01:30:28,935 –> 01:30:31,570
over the percala of his fighting cape and then stuffed the lower folds in the

1424
01:30:31,570 –> 01:30:35,090
sand with a slivered foot. What’s that for? Brett

1425
01:30:35,090 –> 01:30:38,850
asked. To give it the weight in the wind. His face looks bad,

1426
01:30:38,850 –> 01:30:41,855
Bill said. He feels very badly, Brett said. He should be in bed.

1427
01:30:42,555 –> 01:30:46,175
The 1st bull was Belmont. Belmont was very good. But because he got 30,000

1428
01:30:46,235 –> 01:30:49,455
pesetas and people had stayed in line all night to buy tickets to see him,

1429
01:30:49,500 –> 01:30:53,180
The crowd demanded that he should be more than very good. Balbhat’s great

1430
01:30:53,180 –> 01:30:56,860
attraction is working close to the bull. In bullfighting, they speak of the terrain of

1431
01:30:56,860 –> 01:31:00,255
the bull and the terrain of the bullfighter. As long as a bullfighter stays in

1432
01:31:00,255 –> 01:31:03,855
his own terrain, he is comparatively safe. Each time he enters into the terrain of

1433
01:31:03,855 –> 01:31:07,630
the bull, he’s in great danger. Belmont, in his best days, worked always in

1434
01:31:07,630 –> 01:31:11,150
the train of the bull. This way, he give the sensation of coming

1435
01:31:11,150 –> 01:31:14,775
tragedy. People went to the Corada to see Belmont, to be given tragic

1436
01:31:14,935 –> 01:31:18,695
sensations and perhaps to see the death of Belmont. 15 years ago, they said if

1437
01:31:18,695 –> 01:31:22,054
you wanted to see Belmont, you should go quickly while he was still alive. Since

1438
01:31:22,054 –> 01:31:25,800
then, he has killed more than a 1000 bulls. When he retired,

1439
01:31:25,800 –> 01:31:28,440
the legend grew up about how his bullfighting had been, and when he came out

1440
01:31:28,440 –> 01:31:32,119
of retirement, the public were disappointed because no real man could work as close to

1441
01:31:32,119 –> 01:31:35,925
the bulls as Belmont was supposed to have done, not, of course, even

1442
01:31:35,925 –> 01:31:39,685
Belmont. Also, Belmont imposed conditions and assisted

1443
01:31:39,685 –> 01:31:43,420
his bulls should not be too large or too dangerously armed with and so the

1444
01:31:43,420 –> 01:31:47,099
element that was necessary to give the sensation of tragedy was not there. And the

1445
01:31:47,099 –> 01:31:50,619
public, who wanted 3 times as much from Belmont, who was sick with a fistula

1446
01:31:50,619 –> 01:31:54,335
as Belmont had ever been able to give, felt defrauded and cheated. And Belmont’s

1447
01:31:54,335 –> 01:31:57,935
jaw came out further in contempt, and his face turned yellower, and he moved with

1448
01:31:57,935 –> 01:32:01,290
greater difficulty as his pain increased. And, finally, The crowd were

1449
01:32:01,290 –> 01:32:04,909
actively against him, and he was utterly contemptuous and indifferent.

1450
01:32:05,610 –> 01:32:08,409
He had meant to have a great afternoon, and instead, it was an afternoon of

1451
01:32:08,409 –> 01:32:12,094
sneers, shouted insults and finally, a volley of cushions and pieces of

1452
01:32:12,094 –> 01:32:15,695
bread and vegetables thrown down at him in the plaza where he had had

1453
01:32:15,695 –> 01:32:19,440
his greatest triumphs. His jaw only went further

1454
01:32:19,440 –> 01:32:23,200
out. Sometimes he turned to smile that tooth long jawed

1455
01:32:23,200 –> 01:32:26,975
lip with smile when he was called, sometimes, particularly insulting, and

1456
01:32:26,975 –> 01:32:30,574
always the pain that any moment produced grew stronger and stronger

1457
01:32:30,574 –> 01:32:34,335
until finally his yellow face was parchment color. And after a second bull was dead

1458
01:32:34,335 –> 01:32:37,500
and the throwing of the bread and cushions was over, after he has saluted the

1459
01:32:37,500 –> 01:32:41,180
president with the same wolf jawed smile and contemptuous eyes and handed his

1460
01:32:41,180 –> 01:32:44,565
sword over to the Barrera to be wiped and put back in his case, He

1461
01:32:44,565 –> 01:32:48,085
passed through into the Callejon and leaned on the Barrera below us, his head on

1462
01:32:48,085 –> 01:32:51,545
his arms, not seeing, not hearing anything, only going through his pain.

1463
01:32:52,830 –> 01:32:56,270
When he looked up, finally, he asked for a drink of water. He swallowed a

1464
01:32:56,270 –> 01:32:59,950
little, rinsed his mouth, spat the water, took his cape, and went back

1465
01:32:59,950 –> 01:33:03,395
into the ring. Because they were against

1466
01:33:03,395 –> 01:33:06,675
Belmont, the public were for Romero. From the moment he left the Barrera and went

1467
01:33:06,675 –> 01:33:10,440
toward the bull, they applauded him. Belmont watched Romero too, watched him always

1468
01:33:10,440 –> 01:33:14,040
without seeming to. He paid no attention to Marcial. Marcial was the sort of thing

1469
01:33:14,040 –> 01:33:17,400
he knew all about. He had come out of retirement to compete with Marcial, knowing

1470
01:33:17,400 –> 01:33:21,145
it was a competition gained in advance. He had expected to

1471
01:33:21,145 –> 01:33:24,665
compete with Marci Allen and the other stars of the decadence of bullfighting. And he

1472
01:33:24,665 –> 01:33:28,090
knew that the sincerity of his own bullfighting would be so set off by the

1473
01:33:28,090 –> 01:33:31,850
false aesthetics of the bullfighters of the decadent period that he would only

1474
01:33:31,850 –> 01:33:35,675
have to be in the ring. His return from retirement

1475
01:33:35,675 –> 01:33:39,195
had been spoiled by Romero. Romero did always smoothly, calmly, and

1476
01:33:39,195 –> 01:33:42,255
beautifully what he, Belmont, could only bring himself to do now. Sometimes

1477
01:33:43,690 –> 01:33:47,530
The crowd felt it. Even the people from Biarritz, even the American ambassador saw it

1478
01:33:47,530 –> 01:33:50,969
finally. It was a competition that Belmont would not enter because it would lead only

1479
01:33:50,969 –> 01:33:54,745
to a bad horn, wound, or death. Belmont was no longer well enough.

1480
01:33:54,745 –> 01:33:57,385
He no longer had his greatest moments in the ball ring. He was not sure

1481
01:33:57,385 –> 01:34:00,745
that there were any great moments. Things are not the same, and now life only

1482
01:34:00,745 –> 01:34:04,010
came in flashes. He had flashes of the old greatness with his bulls? But they

1483
01:34:04,010 –> 01:34:07,530
were not of value because he had discounted them in advance when he had picked

1484
01:34:07,530 –> 01:34:10,675
the bulls out for their safety, getting out of a motor and leaning on a

1485
01:34:10,675 –> 01:34:13,655
fence, looking at the herd on the ranch of his friend, the bull breeder.

1486
01:34:14,675 –> 01:34:17,875
So he had 2 small manageable bulls without much horns, and when he felt the

1487
01:34:17,875 –> 01:34:21,480
greatness again coming, just a little of it, through the pain that was

1488
01:34:21,480 –> 01:34:24,940
always with him. It had been discounted and sold in advance,

1489
01:34:25,400 –> 01:34:28,765
and it did not give him a good feeling. It was the

1490
01:34:28,765 –> 01:34:31,905
greatness, but it did not make bullfighting wonderful

1491
01:34:32,605 –> 01:34:33,185
to him

1492
01:34:41,290 –> 01:34:45,005
I love that passage. As a person who’s done combat sports for

1493
01:34:45,005 –> 01:34:48,365
many, many years and played rugby. I

1494
01:34:48,365 –> 01:34:51,585
identified deeply with Belmont in that passage.

1495
01:34:54,340 –> 01:34:58,020
There’s things they want from you, the crowd, that you never were and

1496
01:34:58,020 –> 01:35:01,860
never could be, and it was never really up to the crowd. This

1497
01:35:01,860 –> 01:35:05,285
is what Rocky taught us way back in the day and then Mike Tyson taught

1498
01:35:05,285 –> 01:35:08,185
it to us and continues to teach it to us even now.

1499
01:35:08,805 –> 01:35:12,645
There’s things they want from you that you will never be able to give them

1500
01:35:12,645 –> 01:35:16,130
because wasn’t what was on offer in the 1st

1501
01:35:16,130 –> 01:35:19,969
place. What was on offer was

1502
01:35:19,969 –> 01:35:23,105
your talent if you’re a fighter or a bullfighter.

1503
01:35:24,445 –> 01:35:27,885
And the talent well, the talent goes as far as it

1504
01:35:27,885 –> 01:35:30,869
goes, and then it’s done.

1505
01:35:32,610 –> 01:35:35,830
We see the same thing in the arts. We see the same thing in writing,

1506
01:35:37,330 –> 01:35:40,675
but we also see it, like I said, in sport. And,

1507
01:35:41,155 –> 01:35:44,835
right around the time that Ernest Hemingway was writing this book,

1508
01:35:44,995 –> 01:35:48,680
right about the time it was published, Eric Liddell. Some of you may

1509
01:35:48,680 –> 01:35:52,440
remember the movie Chariots of Fire from back in the day. Eric

1510
01:35:52,440 –> 01:35:55,905
Liddell refused to run the 100 meters at the

1511
01:35:55,905 –> 01:35:59,505
1924 Olympics, 2 years before the publication of The

1512
01:35:59,505 –> 01:36:02,885
Sun Also Rises, because the 100 meters

1513
01:36:04,170 –> 01:36:07,690
One hundred meters was run on a Sunday, and Eric Liddell was a

1514
01:36:07,690 –> 01:36:11,370
practicing Christian. And what that meant was that he was a Christian

1515
01:36:11,370 –> 01:36:12,910
all the way down to his bones.

1516
01:36:16,475 –> 01:36:20,315
I’m sure this dichotomy was in

1517
01:36:20,315 –> 01:36:24,010
Hemingway’s own head, and I don’t know whether Hemingway was Christian or not,

1518
01:36:24,469 –> 01:36:28,309
probably not, but who knows what was in the man’s heart.

1519
01:36:28,309 –> 01:36:32,070
Right? And he had to have

1520
01:36:32,070 –> 01:36:35,655
seen I’ve seen observed this and read about it in the papers in

1521
01:36:35,655 –> 01:36:37,435
France and wondered,

1522
01:36:40,110 –> 01:36:42,210
just like you wondered when he watched The Bullfighters.

1523
01:36:46,110 –> 01:36:49,765
Miles Davis, by the way, much, much later in the century,

1524
01:36:50,145 –> 01:36:53,925
would turn his back on audiences to play his music.

1525
01:36:56,400 –> 01:37:00,000
There’s something here, whether the performer is a

1526
01:37:00,000 –> 01:37:03,680
bullfighter or a jazz musician, whether the performer is Hemingway at his

1527
01:37:03,680 –> 01:37:07,065
typewriter, or Eric Liddell on the

1528
01:37:07,065 –> 01:37:10,745
Olympic course. Something here, when you’re giving the crowd something they

1529
01:37:10,745 –> 01:37:12,365
wanted, it’s from your own officiant,

1530
01:37:15,200 –> 01:37:18,960
But you can only give them what you have, particularly when

1531
01:37:18,960 –> 01:37:20,420
they want so much more.

1532
01:37:23,295 –> 01:37:26,835
We have a real struggle with this these days in our time because,

1533
01:37:26,975 –> 01:37:30,680
well, quite frankly, We all live with audiences

1534
01:37:30,820 –> 01:37:33,720
now in ways that Hemingway could have only imagined.

1535
01:37:35,460 –> 01:37:39,305
We’re famous collectively, all of us to about a 100 people and

1536
01:37:39,305 –> 01:37:43,145
famous only means influential, but we can only give them

1537
01:37:43,145 –> 01:37:46,844
what they want. Actually,

1538
01:37:47,810 –> 01:37:50,150
No. We can’t give them what they want.

1539
01:37:51,570 –> 01:37:55,155
And what they want is all of us. Right? They want our hearts, They want

1540
01:37:55,155 –> 01:37:57,975
our souls, they want our minds, and they want them all right now.

1541
01:37:58,995 –> 01:38:00,775
And that’s not for us to give.

1542
01:38:02,610 –> 01:38:06,290
The excellent bullfighter, like Belmont, smiles his

1543
01:38:06,290 –> 01:38:10,050
wolf smile because that’s a boundary, or like you don’t bother

1544
01:38:10,050 –> 01:38:12,755
Mike Tyson on a plane after he’s told you he’s not gonna give you an

1545
01:38:12,755 –> 01:38:16,594
autograph. And then when you hassle the man, you’re surprised when

1546
01:38:16,594 –> 01:38:20,320
he punches you. By the way, look that up, that

1547
01:38:20,320 –> 01:38:21,860
actually did happen to some dude.

1548
01:38:26,205 –> 01:38:29,645
There have to be limits and boundaries. Right? You don’t owe

1549
01:38:29,645 –> 01:38:33,460
anybody anything. I think Frank Sinatra said this back in the day. You don’t

1550
01:38:33,460 –> 01:38:37,300
owe the audience anything other than a good performance. That’s

1551
01:38:37,300 –> 01:38:40,980
all you get. And then after that, we’ll smile our

1552
01:38:40,980 –> 01:38:44,535
smiles as performers or as combat artists

1553
01:38:44,955 –> 01:38:48,435
or as jazz musicians, and then we all go

1554
01:38:48,435 –> 01:38:52,190
home because that’s what you were there for. That’s why Miles

1555
01:38:52,190 –> 01:38:55,650
Davis turned his back on the crowd. You were there for the performance.

1556
01:38:56,670 –> 01:38:58,610
You weren’t really there for me.

1557
01:39:01,275 –> 01:39:04,635
As we turn the corner here on the podcast and we start to wrap

1558
01:39:04,635 –> 01:39:08,395
up, how can leaders I’m gonna change this

1559
01:39:08,395 –> 01:39:11,270
last question a little bit from what we have in our notes, Libby, as I’m

1560
01:39:11,270 –> 01:39:15,050
thinking about it. How can leaders

1561
01:39:15,190 –> 01:39:18,730
know what’s the performance versus what’s more to give?

1562
01:39:19,975 –> 01:39:23,735
Because leaders sometimes have trouble turning their back on the crowd. They sometimes

1563
01:39:23,735 –> 01:39:27,415
have trouble setting those boundaries. We saw something like

1564
01:39:27,415 –> 01:39:30,680
this in in Spears, Julius Caesar, right?

1565
01:39:31,140 –> 01:39:34,980
Where Julius Caesar says to Calpurnia before he goes out to

1566
01:39:34,980 –> 01:39:38,805
get stabbed in the Senate, always I am

1567
01:39:38,805 –> 01:39:41,545
Caesar. Right? Like, I’m always that guy.

1568
01:39:42,485 –> 01:39:46,025
So Libby, how do we how do leaders find their way

1569
01:39:46,330 –> 01:39:49,930
in all of this. How do they how do they

1570
01:39:49,930 –> 01:39:53,310
become either Belmont or or, you know, or Romero

1571
01:39:54,010 –> 01:39:57,695
or the kid? Right? Like, how do you

1572
01:39:58,175 –> 01:40:01,855
and there’s so much here in that little section in The Sun Also Rises, the

1573
01:40:01,855 –> 01:40:05,420
dynamics between the 3 competitors, which, again, I resonated

1574
01:40:05,420 –> 01:40:08,780
with because I you know, the kind of life I’ve lived. Like, I know what

1575
01:40:08,780 –> 01:40:12,435
it’s like to go out against a competitor in a ring or on field

1576
01:40:12,435 –> 01:40:15,315
who’s just as good as you are and has put in just as much amount

1577
01:40:15,315 –> 01:40:18,835
of time as you are and as you have and and, you know, you’re leaving

1578
01:40:18,835 –> 01:40:22,190
it all out on the field there. And it doesn’t matter. I will tell you

1579
01:40:22,190 –> 01:40:25,710
when I played rugby games in the middle of Minnesota when it was, like, 38

1580
01:40:25,710 –> 01:40:29,545
degrees and I’m wearing those little shorts and that little shirt, and I’m freezing cold

1581
01:40:29,545 –> 01:40:33,385
for 80 minutes, I’m not looking at the crowd. I don’t care

1582
01:40:33,385 –> 01:40:36,745
about them. I don’t care that you showed up. I don’t care if you clap

1583
01:40:36,745 –> 01:40:40,550
and I don’t care if you boo. It doesn’t really matter to me.

1584
01:40:40,930 –> 01:40:44,770
I’m dead focused on that guy over there. Or when

1585
01:40:44,770 –> 01:40:48,285
I go out into a ring at a jujitsu tournament or a

1586
01:40:48,285 –> 01:40:51,965
taekwondo tournament, all of the rest of all of that stuff,

1587
01:40:51,965 –> 01:40:53,665
even the voice of my coach just

1588
01:40:55,880 –> 01:40:59,640
just disappears. It’s like it wipes out, and all I see is

1589
01:40:59,640 –> 01:41:03,400
that guy over there and my plan

1590
01:41:03,400 –> 01:41:05,225
for whatever it is I’m gonna do to him.

1591
01:41:07,865 –> 01:41:11,705
That’s it. Until the 1st punch is round. Until the 1st punch is, and

1592
01:41:11,705 –> 01:41:15,550
then we’re all gonna we’re exactly. Then we’re all gonna change it up after that.

1593
01:41:16,809 –> 01:41:20,170
That’s right. Yeah. What what’s

1594
01:41:20,170 –> 01:41:24,005
really, There’s a cop there’s 2 or 3 key

1595
01:41:24,005 –> 01:41:27,685
threads in this, but the first is, 1, I’d rather be

1596
01:41:27,685 –> 01:41:28,985
respected than liked,

1597
01:41:31,430 –> 01:41:34,969
And too many leaders wanna be liked,

1598
01:41:35,430 –> 01:41:38,489
you know, and so, they make

1599
01:41:38,870 –> 01:41:42,405
easy Decisions, not

1600
01:41:42,405 –> 01:41:46,085
hard decisions. You know, and they yeah. And there’s that

1601
01:41:46,085 –> 01:41:49,685
phrase that, you know, easy decisions, hard life, hard decisions, easy

1602
01:41:49,685 –> 01:41:53,190
life. And always focus on doing the right

1603
01:41:53,190 –> 01:41:56,870
thing, not necessarily the popular thing. You know, and

1604
01:41:56,870 –> 01:42:00,525
so, Again, not not wanting to be liked,

1605
01:42:00,525 –> 01:42:03,105
but wanting to be respected. 2,

1606
01:42:05,370 –> 01:42:08,889
Regardless of whether you do the thing to be liked or respected, the crowd will

1607
01:42:08,889 –> 01:42:12,510
always move on. You know? Like, so

1608
01:42:12,889 –> 01:42:16,635
you may be the The the king of the day, but

1609
01:42:16,635 –> 01:42:20,335
once people have what they want, you know, they’re gonna look for the next,

1610
01:42:20,395 –> 01:42:23,870
yeah, dopamine fill, and it won’t be it won’t be you.

1611
01:42:24,350 –> 01:42:27,810
So that likeness is ephemeral and if you’re continuously

1612
01:42:28,270 –> 01:42:30,770
chasing it, what do you have to sacrifice

1613
01:42:31,945 –> 01:42:35,645
In order to, you know, be liked into perpetuity.

1614
01:42:35,785 –> 01:42:38,925
We have a lot of politicians that have sacrificed a lot of their

1615
01:42:39,590 –> 01:42:43,030
If they had morals to start with, we could you kind of question whether they

1616
01:42:43,030 –> 01:42:45,370
do now in the pursuit of being popular.

1617
01:42:46,975 –> 01:42:50,355
Yeah. So there’s that theme of wanting to be respected

1618
01:42:50,495 –> 01:42:53,635
versus liked, making hard decisions versus easy

1619
01:42:53,855 –> 01:42:56,909
decisions. Tribal decisions are easy,

1620
01:42:58,810 –> 01:43:02,510
because, you know, you’ll be accepted at you know, by going on with the tribe.

1621
01:43:03,075 –> 01:43:06,675
Going counter to the tribe, that’s hard. That may mean that you’re walking alone. It

1622
01:43:06,675 –> 01:43:10,515
also may mean that you’re killed. But would you rather die with your

1623
01:43:10,515 –> 01:43:14,340
morals intact or, you know, or having sacrificed your

1624
01:43:14,340 –> 01:43:17,780
soul. 2nd is like there’s, you know, there’s t I

1625
01:43:17,940 –> 01:43:21,400
yeah. Teddy Roosevelt’s Man in the Arena. Yeah.

1626
01:43:23,085 –> 01:43:26,845
Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, you know,

1627
01:43:26,845 –> 01:43:30,465
any we’re all that’s just the modern day arena

1628
01:43:30,840 –> 01:43:34,539
And we’re all people in the crowd. The only

1629
01:43:35,400 –> 01:43:38,975
I only care about it when I’m the man in the rear In the

1630
01:43:38,975 –> 01:43:42,515
man I’m the man in the the arena or women

1631
01:43:42,735 –> 01:43:46,460
or person, you know, in the arena fighting the battle. You

1632
01:43:46,460 –> 01:43:50,060
don’t know how complex you know, you don’t know what’s

1633
01:43:50,060 –> 01:43:53,820
required or how complex it is unless you’re the one who’s actually

1634
01:43:53,820 –> 01:43:56,935
taking the throws and, you know, And and the punches.

1635
01:43:58,675 –> 01:44:02,455
So I have the respect for the individual who’s in the arena.

1636
01:44:03,650 –> 01:44:06,230
Yeah. Whether it’s the bullfighter or,

1637
01:44:07,570 –> 01:44:11,410
you know, a a leader in a business who’s having to make really, really tough

1638
01:44:11,410 –> 01:44:15,085
decisions, Yeah. Or in your personal life and family.

1639
01:44:16,185 –> 01:44:19,965
It’s easy to judge from the outside when you don’t pay any consequences

1640
01:44:20,890 –> 01:44:24,330
For, the recommendations and things that you’re pushing

1641
01:44:24,330 –> 01:44:27,790
for. So when you’re the man in the arena,

1642
01:44:28,315 –> 01:44:31,135
You take what it take you know, do what it takes to win,

1643
01:44:33,034 –> 01:44:36,650
but within the rules of the game. Yeah. So we had in the

1644
01:44:36,650 –> 01:44:40,410
arena, respect versus light. Yeah. And as we all

1645
01:44:40,410 –> 01:44:44,010
know, like, I’ll I’ll finish on this. I always had this

1646
01:44:44,010 –> 01:44:47,485
instinct that I wanted to be I wanted silver and not gold.

1647
01:44:48,665 –> 01:44:52,445
And, that’s been a thread for a very, very long time,

1648
01:44:52,505 –> 01:44:56,350
and I never quite Fully understood it until I got

1649
01:44:56,730 –> 01:45:00,410
a little older, but what it was is there’s so much noise around

1650
01:45:00,410 –> 01:45:03,955
1st place. There’s always so much noise around the gold. Yes.

1651
01:45:03,955 –> 01:45:07,715
Silver and swimming can be a second a second slower, but no one’s

1652
01:45:07,715 –> 01:45:11,095
paying attention to you. Like, for me, the achievement

1653
01:45:12,240 –> 01:45:15,860
And what I had to put myself through was the the accomplishment.

1654
01:45:16,560 –> 01:45:19,860
It wasn’t the recognition and the noise that comes from it,

1655
01:45:21,125 –> 01:45:24,885
and, you know, you start to lose yourself when you start

1656
01:45:24,885 –> 01:45:28,670
paying attention to the noise around gold and first. Silver keeps

1657
01:45:28,670 –> 01:45:32,350
you focused on the achievement and achievement for achievement’s sake because it

1658
01:45:32,350 –> 01:45:35,250
pushes you to do what you didn’t know you could do.

1659
01:45:36,795 –> 01:45:40,235
The Minnesota Rapper atmosphere back in the day used to

1660
01:45:40,235 –> 01:45:43,994
say, I’m not the best, but I’m in the

1661
01:45:43,994 –> 01:45:47,610
top 2. Love it. I think that’s a

1662
01:45:47,610 –> 01:45:48,590
great way to finish.

1663
01:45:51,930 –> 01:45:55,475
And with that, I’d like to thank Libby Younger

1664
01:45:56,094 –> 01:45:59,775
for coming on the podcast this year. And it’s been an

1665
01:45:59,775 –> 01:46:03,449
immense pleasure to get to know you better, Libby. And I look forward to having

1666
01:46:03,449 –> 01:46:06,969
you on the podcast next season, around these great

1667
01:46:06,969 –> 01:46:08,910
books and these great insights.

1668
01:46:10,665 –> 01:46:14,185
And, I look forward to continuing to collaborate with

1669
01:46:14,185 –> 01:46:17,784
you, on bringing these books and these insights to

1670
01:46:17,784 –> 01:46:20,840
folks And, and doing something that’s truly,

1671
01:46:21,940 –> 01:46:25,540
I think anyway, truly unique and truly interesting right

1672
01:46:25,540 –> 01:46:29,364
now in the podcasting landscape. So Once again

1673
01:46:29,364 –> 01:46:33,204
from yeah, thank you. From all of us here at

1674
01:46:33,204 –> 01:46:35,224
the Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast,

1675
01:46:37,156 –> 01:46:37,656
We’re