Leadership Lessons From The Great Books #62 – City of God by Saint Augustine of Hippo (Books Three and Four) w/Tom Libby

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Hello.

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My name is Jesan Sorrells and

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this is the Leadership Lessons

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from the Great Books podcast,

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episode number 62.

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Welcoming back my regular co

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host today, Tom Libby.

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Hey everyone. Well, thank you

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for welcoming me back Jesan.

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Very excited to be here.

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And Tom is coming along at an

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auspicious time in the podcast.

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We were just talking a little

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bit off the air. I am in the

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process of fighting corporate

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giants in my own life. I’m

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having that weird moment,

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corporate and bureaucratic

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giants in my own life.

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And so it’s interesting that in

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the.

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Month of June, a month of pride,

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as I mentioned before in the

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previous episode that we are

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going to be covering, we’re

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going to be talking about City

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of God by St. Augustine of

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Hippo. Now this is a massive

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book, has multiple smaller books

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inside of it. It is right around

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1100 pages. Yes, I said 1100,

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100 pages long. We will not be

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covering the whole book.

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Instead, what we will be doing

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is.

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We will be reading from books

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two.

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Books three and books four

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excerpts today in order to.

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Buttress the arguments and the

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ideas that we laid out in.

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Episode number 61 where we

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discussed C. S. Lewis’s the

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Abolition of Man. Because I

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think that during the era we are

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in right now, there’s nothing

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that we need to be doing as

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leaders that is more impactful

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for the people who will follow

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us than figuring out how to

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debate how to persuade and how

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to convince. And St. Augustine

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of Hippo, in his lengthy book

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The City of God, lays.

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Out a pattern of argumentation

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that is undeniable in its power.

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Matter of fact, without this

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book and.

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Without the efforts of St.

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Augustine of Hippo and we’ll

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talk a little bit about St.

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Augustine today on the podcast.

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Without the efforts of St.

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Augustine, the initial first

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thousand years of Christianity

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probably wouldn’t have worked

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out. Christianity probably would

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have been strangled in its

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cradle. And thus Darwinism,

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Nietzscheism and the

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postmodernism that we all live

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under right now.

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Well, probably wouldn’t have

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gotten legs underneath it. We

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owe a lot to St. Augustine and

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we don’t read them nearly

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closely enough. So as usual, we

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will start off with the book

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from City of God.

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We are reading in book two,

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chapter 21.

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And I quote if our opponents.

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Score in the historian’s

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judgment that the.

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Roman state has sunk, quote, to

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the.

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Depths of depravity, unquote, if

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they are not troubled about the

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disgusting infection of crime

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and immorality which rages in it

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so long as that state continues

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to stand. Then let them listen.

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Not to Salas description of its

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degradation, but to Cicero’s

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argument that it has now utterly

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perished.

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That the Republic is completely

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extinct.

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Cicero represents Scipio, the

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annihilator of Carthage, as

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discussing the state of the

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country when it was felt that it

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was doomed to perish through the

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corruption described in Salast.

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This discussion is placed at the

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time when one of the grachy had

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been killed, an occasion from

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which Salas dates the beginnings

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of the serious civil

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disturbances. Salas records his

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death in this work. Now, Scipio

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said at the end of the second

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book.

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Quote in the case of music for.

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Strings or wind, and in vocal

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music there is a certain harmony

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to be kept between the different

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parts, and if this is altered or

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disorganized, the cultivated ear

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finds it intolerable, and the

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united efforts of dissimilar

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voices are blended into harmony

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by the exercise of restraint.

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In the same way, a community of.

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Different classes high, low and

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middle, unites, like the varying

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sounds of music, to form a

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harmony of very different parts

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through the exercise of rational

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restraint.

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And what is called harmony and

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music.

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Answers in Concord in a

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community, and it is the best

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and closest bond.

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Of security in a country, and

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this cannot possibly exist

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without justice. Close quote.

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Then, after a more extended

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treatment of the point

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describing the great advantage

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of justice to a community and

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the great loss occasioned by its

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absence, another of those

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present of the discussion, named

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Phyllis puts in a plea for a

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more detailed treatment of the

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subject of justice, because it

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was at that time popularly

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supposed that some injustice was

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inevitable in the government of

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any country. Scipio agrees that

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this question needed

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investigation and explanation.

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He admits in reply that in his

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opinion what they have already

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said about the Commonwealth

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gives them no basis for

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proceeding further unless they

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establish the falsity of the

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statement that injustice is

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inevitable in government, and

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further the truth of the

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assertion that complete justice

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is the supreme essential for

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government.

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The discussion of the question

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is then.

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Deferred to the next day, and in

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the third book the topic is

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thrashed out with the fiercest

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arguments Philos undertakes to

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defend the position that

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government entails injustice,

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covering himself by disclaiming

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this as his own opinion. And he

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contends energetically for

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injustice against justice,

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asserting a superior utility for

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the country, and striving to

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prove his point by plausible

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arguments and illustrations.

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Then Lalius, by general request,

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undertakes a defense of justice,

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and asserts with all possible

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emphasis that nothing is so

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inimical to a community as

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injustice, and that a country

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cannot be governed and cannot

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continue in being without a high

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degree of justice. When this

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question has in the general

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opinion been dealt with

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sufficiently, scipio returns to

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the interrupted discussion. He

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starts by repeating and

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supporting his brief definition

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of a Commonwealth that it is the

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wheel of the community, and he

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defines the community as meaning

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not any and every association of

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the population, but an

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association united by common

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sense of right and a community

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of interest.

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He goes on to point out the.

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Advantage of definition in

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argument, and from these

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definitions of his he derives

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the proposition that a

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Commonwealth I e wheel of the

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community only exists when

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there.

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Is a sound and just government,

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where.

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The power rests with a monarch,

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or with a few aristocrats, or

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with the people as a whole.

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But when the king is unjust a.

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Tyrant, as he calls him in the

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Greek manner, where the nobles

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are unjust, he calls such a

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combination a facio, a caucus,

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where the people are unjust. And

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for this he finds no accepted

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term, unless he should call it a

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collective tyranny. Then, he

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holds, the Commonwealth is not.

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Corrupt, as had been argued on

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the.

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Previous day, but by logical

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deduction from the definition,

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it ceases to exist at all.

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For there could be no wheel of.

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The community if it is unjust,

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since it is not associated by

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common sense of right and a

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community of interest.

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Which is the definition of

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community.

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Thus, when the Roman

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Commonwealth reached the

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condition described by Salas, it

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was not by now in the depth of

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depravity in Salas’s phrase, it

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had simply ceased.

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To exist according to the

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reasoning produced.

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By the discussion of the

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Commonwealth which engaged the

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leading statesman of the time.

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Similarly, Cicero himself, at

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the beginning of the fifth book,

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speaks in his own person, and

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not in the person of Scipio or

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anyone else, when he quotes.

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The line of enneas ancient

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morality and.

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The men of old fixed firm the

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Roman state.

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And he continues, quote this

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verse both.

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Its brevity and its truth seems

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to me like the utterance of some

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oracle.

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For the great leaders could not

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have.

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Founded, or could not have so

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long maintained such a great

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state with such a vast stretch

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of empire, had there not been

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that morality in the community.

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Nor could the morality have done

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so.

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Without the leadership of such

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men.

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Thus, before our own period, the

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00:08:08,488 –> 00:08:09,774
traditional moral code produced

279
00:08:09,822 –> 00:08:10,854
outstanding men, and these

280
00:08:10,892 –> 00:08:12,134
excellent men preserved the code

281
00:08:12,172 –> 00:08:13,046
and the practices of their

282
00:08:13,068 –> 00:08:15,366
forebearers. Whereas our age has

283
00:08:15,388 –> 00:08:16,438
received the Commonwealth like a

284
00:08:16,444 –> 00:08:18,006
magnificent picture which has

285
00:08:18,028 –> 00:08:18,214
almost.

286
00:08:18,252 –> 00:08:20,214
Faded away with age, and it is.

287
00:08:20,252 –> 00:08:22,006
Not only omitted to restore it

288
00:08:22,028 –> 00:08:23,766
with its original colors, it has

289
00:08:23,788 –> 00:08:24,746
not even taken the trouble to

290
00:08:24,768 –> 00:08:25,818
preserve what 1 may call the

291
00:08:25,824 –> 00:08:26,806
general shape in the bare

292
00:08:26,838 –> 00:08:28,858
outlines. For what remains of

293
00:08:28,864 –> 00:08:29,946
that ancient morality which,

294
00:08:29,968 –> 00:08:31,158
according to the poet, supported

295
00:08:31,174 –> 00:08:31,258
the.

296
00:08:31,264 –> 00:08:33,514
Roman state, we see that it has.

297
00:08:33,552 –> 00:08:34,894
Passed out of use, into

298
00:08:34,932 –> 00:08:36,814
oblivion, so that far from being

299
00:08:36,852 –> 00:08:37,646
cultivated, it does.

300
00:08:37,668 –> 00:08:39,210
Not even enter our minds.

301
00:08:39,370 –> 00:08:41,646
And what about the men? The

302
00:08:41,668 –> 00:08:43,166
morality has passed away through

303
00:08:43,188 –> 00:08:43,326
a.

304
00:08:43,348 –> 00:08:46,346
Lack of men, and we are bound.

305
00:08:46,378 –> 00:08:47,586
To be called into account for

306
00:08:47,608 –> 00:08:49,634
this disaster, and even, 1 may

307
00:08:49,672 –> 00:08:51,378
say, to defend ourselves on a

308
00:08:51,384 –> 00:08:52,530
capital charge.

309
00:08:52,950 –> 00:08:54,498
For we retain the name of a

310
00:08:54,504 –> 00:08:56,286
Commonwealth. But we have lost

311
00:08:56,318 –> 00:08:59,254
the reality long ago, and this

312
00:08:59,292 –> 00:09:01,190
was not through any misfortune,

313
00:09:02,010 –> 00:09:03,480
but through our own

314
00:09:04,650 –> 00:09:15,662
misdemeanors. Close Quotes st.

315
00:09:15,716 –> 00:09:18,706
Augustine of Hippo, born 354 and

316
00:09:18,728 –> 00:09:21,246
died in 430, is among.

317
00:09:21,278 –> 00:09:22,258
As I stated before in the

318
00:09:22,264 –> 00:09:23,394
opening there the most

319
00:09:23,432 –> 00:09:24,738
influential cultural figures of

320
00:09:24,744 –> 00:09:26,466
all time. His development of

321
00:09:26,488 –> 00:09:27,526
Christian theology during the

322
00:09:27,548 –> 00:09:28,546
formative fourth and fifth

323
00:09:28,578 –> 00:09:29,554
century shaped church.

324
00:09:29,602 –> 00:09:32,246
Teaching for at least two

325
00:09:32,268 –> 00:09:34,418
millennia, ascending.

326
00:09:34,434 –> 00:09:35,558
To influence as a teacher of

327
00:09:35,564 –> 00:09:37,206
rhetoric in Hippo, Rome and

328
00:09:37,228 –> 00:09:38,594
Milan, augustine initially

329
00:09:38,642 –> 00:09:40,634
embraced Manichean religion and

330
00:09:40,672 –> 00:09:41,798
later came under the influence

331
00:09:41,814 –> 00:09:43,290
of Neoplatonism.

332
00:09:43,870 –> 00:09:45,786
In 83 87, however, his life

333
00:09:45,808 –> 00:09:46,294
dramatically.

334
00:09:46,342 –> 00:09:47,274
Changed direction with his

335
00:09:47,312 –> 00:09:48,730
conversion to Christianity.

336
00:09:49,550 –> 00:09:51,018
After conversion, he returned to

337
00:09:51,024 –> 00:09:52,846
his native North Africa where he

338
00:09:52,868 –> 00:09:54,430
was ordained a priest and later

339
00:09:54,500 –> 00:09:55,710
made a bishop.

340
00:09:58,130 –> 00:09:59,358
As leader of the Church of

341
00:09:59,364 –> 00:09:59,706
Hippo.

342
00:09:59,738 –> 00:10:00,906
He preached widely and wrote

343
00:10:00,938 –> 00:10:02,426
voluminous biblical commentaries

344
00:10:02,458 –> 00:10:03,818
and apologetic works, defending

345
00:10:03,834 –> 00:10:04,914
Christian faith against its

346
00:10:04,952 –> 00:10:07,362
rivals and detractors. Along

347
00:10:07,416 –> 00:10:08,894
with more personal and pastoral

348
00:10:08,942 –> 00:10:09,202
works.

349
00:10:09,256 –> 00:10:12,306
Such as Confessions, we’ll be

350
00:10:12,328 –> 00:10:13,614
reading selections.

351
00:10:13,662 –> 00:10:14,674
From book Two, three and Four,

352
00:10:14,712 –> 00:10:14,866
as.

353
00:10:14,888 –> 00:10:16,958
I said today, of his seminal

354
00:10:16,974 –> 00:10:17,246
Christian.

355
00:10:17,278 –> 00:10:18,866
Apologetic, The City of God on

356
00:10:18,888 –> 00:10:20,254
the podcast. And this is follow

357
00:10:20,312 –> 00:10:22,886
up, by the way, to a couple of

358
00:10:22,908 –> 00:10:24,598
episodes that we did last year

359
00:10:24,684 –> 00:10:27,174
on City of God. This is a big

360
00:10:27,212 –> 00:10:28,086
book and we’re going to be

361
00:10:28,108 –> 00:10:29,686
revisiting City of God quite a

362
00:10:29,708 –> 00:10:32,054
bit over the coming years. We

363
00:10:32,092 –> 00:10:34,666
covered book One and we also

364
00:10:34,688 –> 00:10:36,234
created an introduction to City

365
00:10:36,272 –> 00:10:37,498
of God. I would encourage you to

366
00:10:37,504 –> 00:10:38,986
go back to listen to those and

367
00:10:39,008 –> 00:10:40,074
we will have links to those

368
00:10:40,112 –> 00:10:42,122
previous episodes from last year

369
00:10:42,176 –> 00:10:43,246
in the show Notes, where we

370
00:10:43,268 –> 00:10:45,214
covered City of God by St.

371
00:10:45,252 –> 00:10:46,574
Augustine. But we’re going to

372
00:10:46,612 –> 00:10:47,406
delve into this.

373
00:10:47,428 –> 00:10:50,574
Today because I think, as was

374
00:10:50,772 –> 00:10:51,434
noted.

375
00:10:51,482 –> 00:10:52,954
In the example where Augustine

376
00:10:53,002 –> 00:10:55,006
is quoting Cicero and Salas,

377
00:10:55,118 –> 00:10:56,820
he’s quoting the.

378
00:10:59,510 –> 00:11:00,062
Roman.

379
00:11:00,126 –> 00:11:03,026
Pagan thinkers of his time in

380
00:11:03,048 –> 00:11:05,774
order to delineate Christian

381
00:11:05,822 –> 00:11:07,686
thinking from pagan thinking in

382
00:11:07,708 –> 00:11:10,310
order to cleave and to clarify.

383
00:11:10,650 –> 00:11:12,006
I think there is something that

384
00:11:12,028 –> 00:11:13,142
can be gained from that,

385
00:11:13,196 –> 00:11:15,174
particularly in our time of

386
00:11:15,212 –> 00:11:17,362
mixed motives and of postmodern

387
00:11:17,426 –> 00:11:19,746
discourse. Leaders are operating

388
00:11:19,778 –> 00:11:21,570
in a time of chaos and confusion

389
00:11:21,650 –> 00:11:23,066
and the leader who can speak the

390
00:11:23,088 –> 00:11:24,954
most clearly, who can cleave and

391
00:11:24,992 –> 00:11:26,474
clarify, is the leader who will

392
00:11:26,512 –> 00:11:28,362
win. And Augustine gives us a

393
00:11:28,416 –> 00:11:30,666
rubric, a framework to be able

394
00:11:30,688 –> 00:11:31,660
to do that.

395
00:11:32,290 –> 00:11:33,694
And he does it.

396
00:11:33,892 –> 00:11:35,086
He does it with a little bit of

397
00:11:35,108 –> 00:11:36,750
a rhetorical flourish.

398
00:11:38,450 –> 00:11:39,994
So, Tom, I know you haven’t

399
00:11:40,042 –> 00:11:40,302
read.

400
00:11:40,356 –> 00:11:44,766
City of God, which is fine. It

401
00:11:44,788 –> 00:11:46,574
is a massive book, like I said.

402
00:11:46,612 –> 00:11:49,138
And so I’m taking on all the

403
00:11:49,144 –> 00:11:50,418
weight of that. I’m reading it

404
00:11:50,424 –> 00:11:51,220
for you.

405
00:11:52,390 –> 00:11:53,586
But just from that clip there

406
00:11:53,608 –> 00:11:53,746
where.

407
00:11:53,768 –> 00:11:55,362
He quotes Cicero who is talking

408
00:11:55,416 –> 00:11:56,114
about.

409
00:11:56,312 –> 00:11:58,846
The death of, or not the death

410
00:11:58,878 –> 00:12:02,658
of the loss of the morals,

411
00:12:02,754 –> 00:12:03,014
right.

412
00:12:03,052 –> 00:12:04,886
The loss of the moral decline in

413
00:12:04,908 –> 00:12:06,518
Rome. And we’re going to talk a

414
00:12:06,524 –> 00:12:07,398
little bit about this idea of

415
00:12:07,404 –> 00:12:08,566
moral decline. But let’s sort of

416
00:12:08,588 –> 00:12:09,740
open up with this.

417
00:12:17,410 –> 00:12:20,622
How do we talk about how we talk

418
00:12:20,676 –> 00:12:21,680
about things?

419
00:12:22,290 –> 00:12:24,794
How do we structure arguments

420
00:12:24,842 –> 00:12:28,558
these days? This is one of the

421
00:12:28,564 –> 00:12:29,778
topic areas that we are going to

422
00:12:29,784 –> 00:12:30,606
talk about. I’m going to quote

423
00:12:30,638 –> 00:12:32,114
extensively from a guy who

424
00:12:32,152 –> 00:12:33,486
publishes for the Rational male

425
00:12:33,518 –> 00:12:35,154
substac. But I want to get our

426
00:12:35,192 –> 00:12:36,330
initial thoughts on this laid

427
00:12:36,350 –> 00:12:39,478
down because Augustine one of

428
00:12:39,484 –> 00:12:40,438
the clever things he does in all

429
00:12:40,444 –> 00:12:41,206
of his writings from

430
00:12:41,228 –> 00:12:41,618
Confessions.

431
00:12:41,634 –> 00:12:45,298
To City of God is he demands

432
00:12:45,394 –> 00:12:46,040
that.

433
00:12:48,830 –> 00:12:51,142
The opponent in his argument.

434
00:12:51,286 –> 00:12:53,430
On the other side of the debate.

435
00:12:53,590 –> 00:12:55,434
He demands rhetorically that

436
00:12:55,472 –> 00:12:58,154
that individual live up to the

437
00:12:58,192 –> 00:12:59,546
logical conclusions of their.

438
00:12:59,568 –> 00:13:02,862
Debate or of their position.

439
00:13:02,996 –> 00:13:04,560
Right. Whatever that is.

440
00:13:05,890 –> 00:13:07,294
We don’t really do that these

441
00:13:07,332 –> 00:13:08,400
days, do we?

442
00:13:10,930 –> 00:13:15,166
No, I don’t think so. And I

443
00:13:15,188 –> 00:13:17,360
think there’s there’s also a

444
00:13:17,910 –> 00:13:19,458
I’ve noticed over this,

445
00:13:19,624 –> 00:13:21,234
especially over the last ten

446
00:13:21,272 –> 00:13:22,898
years, maybe even five,

447
00:13:22,984 –> 00:13:28,038
whatever, but we’ve lost the art

448
00:13:28,124 –> 00:13:31,334
of agreeing to disagree and the

449
00:13:31,372 –> 00:13:33,574
ability to have a complete

450
00:13:33,692 –> 00:13:35,046
difference of opinion about a

451
00:13:35,068 –> 00:13:36,486
particular topic and still walk

452
00:13:36,508 –> 00:13:38,466
away friends. Right. We’ve

453
00:13:38,498 –> 00:13:40,886
gotten to the point now where if

454
00:13:40,908 –> 00:13:41,962
you don’t agree with everything

455
00:13:42,016 –> 00:13:43,638
that I agree with and we’re

456
00:13:43,654 –> 00:13:45,734
going to debate each other, it’s

457
00:13:45,782 –> 00:13:47,514
debate and hate instead of agree

458
00:13:47,552 –> 00:13:50,246
to disagree. Right. If you don’t

459
00:13:50,278 –> 00:13:51,994
agree with everything that I

460
00:13:52,032 –> 00:13:53,486
think, then I don’t like you

461
00:13:53,508 –> 00:13:55,134
anymore. I can’t be your friend

462
00:13:55,172 –> 00:13:57,966
anymore. I don’t understand

463
00:13:58,148 –> 00:14:00,634
where or how that paradigm shift

464
00:14:00,682 –> 00:14:02,766
happened. Certainly wasn’t when

465
00:14:02,788 –> 00:14:04,238
I was a kid or as I was growing

466
00:14:04,254 –> 00:14:05,822
up or even in my young adulthood

467
00:14:05,886 –> 00:14:08,514
life. And it didn’t even matter

468
00:14:08,552 –> 00:14:09,746
whether you were talking about

469
00:14:09,848 –> 00:14:12,542
the difference between Roman

470
00:14:12,606 –> 00:14:14,786
Catholics and Protestants or

471
00:14:14,888 –> 00:14:17,074
Democrats and Republicans or

472
00:14:17,192 –> 00:14:18,866
males and female. It didn’t

473
00:14:18,898 –> 00:14:21,766
matter. What mattered was, to

474
00:14:21,788 –> 00:14:23,942
your point a second ago, if you

475
00:14:23,996 –> 00:14:26,214
could debate somebody with some

476
00:14:26,252 –> 00:14:27,926
logic behind what your debate is

477
00:14:27,948 –> 00:14:29,538
and you could live that logic,

478
00:14:29,634 –> 00:14:30,982
then it was okay to walk away

479
00:14:31,036 –> 00:14:32,598
friends. And you could just say,

480
00:14:32,684 –> 00:14:33,894
you can live your way, I’ll live

481
00:14:33,932 –> 00:14:34,938
my way, or you can believe what

482
00:14:34,944 –> 00:14:35,898
you believe. I believe what I

483
00:14:35,904 –> 00:14:37,098
believe, but we still have a

484
00:14:37,104 –> 00:14:38,826
common ground of X, and we can

485
00:14:38,848 –> 00:14:40,218
still be friends because of

486
00:14:40,304 –> 00:14:44,686
X-Y-Z-I think there’s been some

487
00:14:44,868 –> 00:14:46,750
definitely been some missing

488
00:14:47,410 –> 00:14:49,806
teachings of that or some sort

489
00:14:49,828 –> 00:14:53,806
of, like, lack of I’m not even

490
00:14:53,828 –> 00:14:54,914
sure the words I’m looking for,

491
00:14:54,952 –> 00:14:56,638
but it’s very frustrating. It’s

492
00:14:56,654 –> 00:14:59,906
very frustrating to see from a

493
00:14:59,928 –> 00:15:01,614
personal perspective. I’ve

494
00:15:01,662 –> 00:15:04,354
literally had one of my children

495
00:15:04,472 –> 00:15:06,626
say that to me about a

496
00:15:06,648 –> 00:15:07,746
particular topic we were

497
00:15:07,768 –> 00:15:08,818
debating on. He was like, I

498
00:15:08,824 –> 00:15:09,998
can’t even talk to you, dad. And

499
00:15:10,024 –> 00:15:11,974
I’m like, you can’t talk to me

500
00:15:12,012 –> 00:15:14,374
about this, or you can’t talk to

501
00:15:14,412 –> 00:15:15,462
me because that’s two different

502
00:15:15,516 –> 00:15:17,606
things. You can still come to me

503
00:15:17,628 –> 00:15:19,142
with your problems about life

504
00:15:19,196 –> 00:15:21,206
and about finances, and, like,

505
00:15:21,228 –> 00:15:22,966
you need to help if you need you

506
00:15:22,988 –> 00:15:24,038
need to borrow money. I don’t

507
00:15:24,044 –> 00:15:25,386
know, whatever your kids do with

508
00:15:25,408 –> 00:15:27,334
you. Just for the listeners

509
00:15:27,382 –> 00:15:28,554
perspective. I got five kids,

510
00:15:28,592 –> 00:15:29,626
and this only happens to be one

511
00:15:29,648 –> 00:15:31,130
of them that this happened with.

512
00:15:31,280 –> 00:15:33,774
But the reality of it is it

513
00:15:33,812 –> 00:15:35,166
caused some friction that I

514
00:15:35,188 –> 00:15:37,774
wasn’t comfortable with. It

515
00:15:37,812 –> 00:15:39,322
wasn’t that I was uncomfortable

516
00:15:39,386 –> 00:15:41,626
with the debate, and it wasn’t

517
00:15:41,658 –> 00:15:43,102
that I wasn’t uncomfortable with

518
00:15:43,156 –> 00:15:47,134
the topic. I was uncomfortable

519
00:15:47,182 –> 00:15:48,798
with the outcome that he felt

520
00:15:48,814 –> 00:15:50,002
like he couldn’t talk to me

521
00:15:50,056 –> 00:15:51,842
anymore because of this one

522
00:15:51,896 –> 00:15:53,026
conversation we had about this

523
00:15:53,048 –> 00:15:54,846
one topic. To me, that’s

524
00:15:54,878 –> 00:15:59,366
asinine. But again, go ahead

525
00:15:59,388 –> 00:15:59,910
with your next.

526
00:15:59,980 –> 00:16:01,926
Well, you and I both come from.

527
00:16:01,948 –> 00:16:04,294
An era, and and maybe this makes

528
00:16:04,332 –> 00:16:09,062
us dinosaurs, which is yeah,

529
00:16:09,116 –> 00:16:09,558
well, you.

530
00:16:09,564 –> 00:16:10,746
Know, dinosaurs eventually turn

531
00:16:10,768 –> 00:16:12,618
into oil and then we wind up in

532
00:16:12,624 –> 00:16:15,626
cars. That’s fine. I’m down into

533
00:16:15,648 –> 00:16:22,634
the atmosphere. It’s fine. I was

534
00:16:22,672 –> 00:16:24,938
raised with the idea that sticks

535
00:16:24,954 –> 00:16:26,138
and stones will break my bones.

536
00:16:26,154 –> 00:16:27,086
And you know what the end of

537
00:16:27,108 –> 00:16:27,870
this is, right?

538
00:16:27,940 –> 00:16:29,280
Yes, of course.

539
00:16:31,570 –> 00:16:34,030
But we are now in an era, and I

540
00:16:34,100 –> 00:16:36,862
can’t believe it. Once a year,

541
00:16:36,916 –> 00:16:38,226
and maybe this is the time of

542
00:16:38,248 –> 00:16:39,218
the year. I’ll do this once a

543
00:16:39,224 –> 00:16:40,338
year on the podcast. I have to

544
00:16:40,344 –> 00:16:42,226
do a polemic. I have to do an

545
00:16:42,248 –> 00:16:44,580
apologia for free speech. Right?

546
00:16:45,510 –> 00:16:48,246
And it’s weird to me that in.

547
00:16:48,268 –> 00:16:51,574
The year of our Lord 2023, I.

548
00:16:51,612 –> 00:16:53,302
Have to do an Apologia for

549
00:16:53,356 –> 00:16:54,214
something that should be

550
00:16:54,252 –> 00:16:57,778
obvious. Words are not violence.

551
00:16:57,954 –> 00:17:01,866
They are merely things that are

552
00:17:01,888 –> 00:17:03,626
out there. Not even things. They

553
00:17:03,648 –> 00:17:05,642
are expressions of objective or

554
00:17:05,696 –> 00:17:08,374
subjective ideas, thoughts,

555
00:17:08,422 –> 00:17:10,314
feelings, and emotions that, by

556
00:17:10,352 –> 00:17:12,526
the way, exist in people.

557
00:17:12,708 –> 00:17:14,426
They’re the outward expression

558
00:17:14,458 –> 00:17:16,190
of an internal reality.

559
00:17:16,690 –> 00:17:19,754
And if I can’t outwardly express

560
00:17:19,802 –> 00:17:19,966
my.

561
00:17:19,988 –> 00:17:21,534
Internal reality to you, how can

562
00:17:21,572 –> 00:17:26,626
we negotiate reality? How do we

563
00:17:26,648 –> 00:17:28,420
figure out what’s real?

564
00:17:30,470 –> 00:17:32,014
Goes to one of my favorite

565
00:17:32,062 –> 00:17:34,034
quotes of all time, which has

566
00:17:34,072 –> 00:17:35,346
been several times been

567
00:17:35,368 –> 00:17:36,994
associated to Einstein, but

568
00:17:37,032 –> 00:17:38,390
never proven that he actually

569
00:17:38,460 –> 00:17:41,654
said it, the actual person who

570
00:17:41,692 –> 00:17:43,494
said it first or whatnot, has

571
00:17:43,532 –> 00:17:44,918
never been proven. But

572
00:17:45,084 –> 00:17:46,534
perception is greater than

573
00:17:46,572 –> 00:17:49,046
reality, right? So to your

574
00:17:49,068 –> 00:17:50,466
point, how do you debate reality

575
00:17:50,498 –> 00:17:51,898
when reality could be different

576
00:17:51,984 –> 00:17:53,834
based on who’s viewing it or

577
00:17:53,872 –> 00:17:56,682
who’s experiencing it? The

578
00:17:56,736 –> 00:17:58,538
easiest you can argue this all

579
00:17:58,544 –> 00:17:59,914
you want. People can argue that

580
00:17:59,952 –> 00:18:01,834
fact is fact. No, it’s really

581
00:18:01,872 –> 00:18:03,722
not. Because here’s the thing,

582
00:18:03,856 –> 00:18:05,446
and this is the simplest version

583
00:18:05,478 –> 00:18:06,094
of this.

584
00:18:06,212 –> 00:18:07,278
You and I could be in a.

585
00:18:07,284 –> 00:18:09,614
Room for an hour with no way of

586
00:18:09,652 –> 00:18:11,162
telling the time. So no windows,

587
00:18:11,226 –> 00:18:13,614
just four walls in the door. You

588
00:18:13,652 –> 00:18:15,214
and I go into that room. An hour

589
00:18:15,252 –> 00:18:16,298
later, somebody opens the door

590
00:18:16,314 –> 00:18:17,566
and says, okay, guys, your hour

591
00:18:17,588 –> 00:18:19,186
is up. Come on out. And you look

592
00:18:19,208 –> 00:18:20,926
at it and go, oh, my good Lord,

593
00:18:20,958 –> 00:18:22,514
that’s already an hour. It went

594
00:18:22,552 –> 00:18:25,218
by so fast. The same exact hour

595
00:18:25,304 –> 00:18:27,154
I look at and go, that was the

596
00:18:27,192 –> 00:18:29,014
longest hour of my entire life.

597
00:18:29,132 –> 00:18:31,942
What rules the fact is our

598
00:18:31,996 –> 00:18:33,798
perception of it, not the actual

599
00:18:33,884 –> 00:18:36,278
fact. So to your point, the

600
00:18:36,284 –> 00:18:37,894
debate about reality should be

601
00:18:37,932 –> 00:18:39,442
continued to go on, and the idea

602
00:18:39,516 –> 00:18:41,914
of being able to view things

603
00:18:41,952 –> 00:18:46,106
from a different perspective, I

604
00:18:46,128 –> 00:18:47,418
don’t know where it went. I

605
00:18:47,424 –> 00:18:49,606
don’t know where what you’re

606
00:18:49,638 –> 00:18:49,786
talking.

607
00:18:49,808 –> 00:18:51,370
About is more than just a view

608
00:18:51,440 –> 00:18:53,360
of it, because a view of it is

609
00:18:54,050 –> 00:18:55,646
that response after I get out of

610
00:18:55,668 –> 00:18:57,466
that locked room with no clock

611
00:18:57,498 –> 00:18:57,806
on it.

612
00:18:57,828 –> 00:19:00,746
Right. That’s the judgment I’ve

613
00:19:00,778 –> 00:19:02,430
made about that experience.

614
00:19:02,580 –> 00:19:04,786
Right. My judgment was it went

615
00:19:04,808 –> 00:19:06,114
by like that. Your judgment was,

616
00:19:06,152 –> 00:19:10,786
My God, this dragged okay, I

617
00:19:10,808 –> 00:19:12,386
think we’ve confused and this is

618
00:19:12,408 –> 00:19:14,126
the cleaving and the clarifying.

619
00:19:14,238 –> 00:19:14,754
Right.

620
00:19:14,872 –> 00:19:17,382
We have to separate judgments of

621
00:19:17,436 –> 00:19:18,310
reality.

622
00:19:20,090 –> 00:19:21,174
Which, by the way, are

623
00:19:21,212 –> 00:19:21,810
perceptions.

624
00:19:21,890 –> 00:19:23,154
Perceptions are just judgments

625
00:19:23,202 –> 00:19:24,934
of reality. I think we have to

626
00:19:24,972 –> 00:19:27,846
separate those from and this is

627
00:19:27,868 –> 00:19:28,786
where now we get into

628
00:19:28,828 –> 00:19:31,210
neuroscience and philosophy, but

629
00:19:31,360 –> 00:19:33,580
from what is reality itself.

630
00:19:33,950 –> 00:19:38,026
And in that thought example that

631
00:19:38,048 –> 00:19:38,234
you.

632
00:19:38,272 –> 00:19:40,922
Have, reality is there is a box.

633
00:19:41,056 –> 00:19:43,118
With two people in it with a

634
00:19:43,124 –> 00:19:45,146
clock or with no clock.

635
00:19:45,178 –> 00:19:47,662
Sorry, with no clock. Is there

636
00:19:47,716 –> 00:19:49,822
any deeper meaning about those

637
00:19:49,876 –> 00:19:52,190
sets of objective facts? No,

638
00:19:52,260 –> 00:19:53,326
there’s no deeper meaning about

639
00:19:53,348 –> 00:19:55,090
those sets of objective facts.

640
00:19:55,670 –> 00:19:57,874
And to seek deeper meaning from

641
00:19:57,912 –> 00:19:58,114
those.

642
00:19:58,152 –> 00:20:02,322
Sets of objective facts is part

643
00:20:02,376 –> 00:20:02,594
and.

644
00:20:02,632 –> 00:20:06,002
Parcel of the challenge of human

645
00:20:06,056 –> 00:20:07,206
history, which is one of the

646
00:20:07,228 –> 00:20:12,694
reasons why on this podcast last

647
00:20:12,732 –> 00:20:13,798
year, I did it a lot. Not so

648
00:20:13,804 –> 00:20:16,182
much this year, but I believe

649
00:20:16,236 –> 00:20:18,054
that the meaning crisis in our.

650
00:20:18,092 –> 00:20:20,370
Culture, and particularly

651
00:20:20,450 –> 00:20:21,474
Western culture in general.

652
00:20:21,532 –> 00:20:22,378
But the United States in

653
00:20:22,384 –> 00:20:23,882
particular, I think is the most

654
00:20:23,936 –> 00:20:25,434
damaging and deleterious thing.

655
00:20:25,472 –> 00:20:26,486
It’s even worse than climate

656
00:20:26,518 –> 00:20:28,406
change. We could fix climate

657
00:20:28,438 –> 00:20:28,730
change.

658
00:20:28,800 –> 00:20:31,674
We could fix global warming,

659
00:20:31,722 –> 00:20:32,522
global cooling.

660
00:20:32,586 –> 00:20:34,126
Global whatever, methane from

661
00:20:34,148 –> 00:20:37,966
cows, smokestacks, whatever. We

662
00:20:37,988 –> 00:20:40,160
could fix all of that stuff.

663
00:20:43,750 –> 00:20:44,818
If we could figure out the

664
00:20:44,824 –> 00:20:47,314
meaning crisis. And it’s not

665
00:20:47,352 –> 00:20:48,486
necessarily an issue of.

666
00:20:48,508 –> 00:20:50,326
I don’t think, why people take

667
00:20:50,348 –> 00:20:52,230
the certain meaning that they do

668
00:20:52,380 –> 00:20:54,226
from that set of objective facts

669
00:20:54,258 –> 00:20:55,814
of the room. The two people and

670
00:20:55,852 –> 00:20:58,658
no clock. I don’t think it’s the

671
00:20:58,684 –> 00:20:59,878
why that’s interesting, but it’s

672
00:20:59,894 –> 00:21:01,226
not particularly relevant. I

673
00:21:01,248 –> 00:21:02,394
think what’s interesting is the

674
00:21:02,432 –> 00:21:03,366
what of the meaning.

675
00:21:03,398 –> 00:21:06,906
And to your point, we have

676
00:21:06,928 –> 00:21:07,066
those.

677
00:21:07,088 –> 00:21:09,626
Two can the two whats exist in.

678
00:21:09,648 –> 00:21:12,858
The same space, can they exist

679
00:21:12,954 –> 00:21:14,302
and everybody be okay?

680
00:21:14,436 –> 00:21:15,982
And when our whats come out as

681
00:21:16,036 –> 00:21:21,150
words, they’re mere expressions.

682
00:21:24,210 –> 00:21:24,910
I don’t know.

683
00:21:24,980 –> 00:21:26,082
I’m struggling with this

684
00:21:26,136 –> 00:21:27,138
massively because we’re a

685
00:21:27,144 –> 00:21:28,466
literature podcast. We read

686
00:21:28,488 –> 00:21:28,894
literature.

687
00:21:28,942 –> 00:21:29,106
Right.

688
00:21:29,128 –> 00:21:30,386
We read books. And what are

689
00:21:30,408 –> 00:21:31,778
books? Books are collections of

690
00:21:31,784 –> 00:21:33,490
words that are about ideas.

691
00:21:34,070 –> 00:21:35,598
Yeah, precisely.

692
00:21:35,694 –> 00:21:37,026
And now we live in it. Well, now

693
00:21:37,048 –> 00:21:37,894
we live in a time where, like,

694
00:21:37,932 –> 00:21:41,110
Roland Doll is getting redacted.

695
00:21:41,610 –> 00:21:43,330
Like the kids book writer.

696
00:21:43,490 –> 00:21:44,914
You got people who are actively

697
00:21:44,962 –> 00:21:46,194
going back and rewriting

698
00:21:46,242 –> 00:21:49,994
Rolandah. Rolandal or what’s her

699
00:21:50,032 –> 00:21:53,674
name wrote a bunch of the

700
00:21:53,712 –> 00:21:55,722
children’s books for young women

701
00:21:55,776 –> 00:21:56,986
that were targeted towards young

702
00:21:57,008 –> 00:21:57,338
women.

703
00:21:57,424 –> 00:21:58,650
Judy Bloom.

704
00:21:58,990 –> 00:22:00,554
Yeah, judy Bloom is getting

705
00:22:00,592 –> 00:22:01,370
rewitten, too.

706
00:22:01,440 –> 00:22:02,640
So what are we.

707
00:22:06,080 –> 00:22:06,764
A sure sign.

708
00:22:06,802 –> 00:22:08,316
Of totalitarian tyranny is when

709
00:22:08,338 –> 00:22:10,008
you rewrite the past. That’s

710
00:22:10,024 –> 00:22:11,228
what Salah did.

711
00:22:11,394 –> 00:22:12,664
He hired people to retouch

712
00:22:12,712 –> 00:22:14,076
Photos so the trotsky would go

713
00:22:14,098 –> 00:22:18,592
away. We laugh about this, but

714
00:22:18,726 –> 00:22:21,056
that’s a true sign of a

715
00:22:21,078 –> 00:22:22,396
totalitarian being unable.

716
00:22:22,428 –> 00:22:23,376
To deal with another set of

717
00:22:23,398 –> 00:22:26,608
realities. Yeah. And I don’t

718
00:22:26,614 –> 00:22:27,970
know where we go from that.

719
00:22:32,260 –> 00:22:34,256
And I’m not being, I’m not being

720
00:22:34,278 –> 00:22:35,844
apocalyptic on the, on the show

721
00:22:35,882 –> 00:22:37,028
when we’re very clear. I just

722
00:22:37,034 –> 00:22:37,876
don’t know where we go from

723
00:22:37,898 –> 00:22:38,916
that. I don’t know what the end

724
00:22:38,938 –> 00:22:39,770
game is.

725
00:22:40,940 –> 00:22:42,456
It’s funny you say that

726
00:22:42,638 –> 00:22:46,472
apocalyptic because I really do

727
00:22:46,606 –> 00:22:48,264
think that sometimes we’re our

728
00:22:48,302 –> 00:22:49,944
own worst enemy with this stuff,

729
00:22:49,982 –> 00:22:52,216
right. We get so wrapped up in

730
00:22:52,238 –> 00:22:54,136
the and I think, I still think

731
00:22:54,158 –> 00:22:55,340
it’s part of a bigger problem

732
00:22:55,410 –> 00:22:57,016
with the instant gratification

733
00:22:57,128 –> 00:22:58,156
generation and all this other

734
00:22:58,178 –> 00:22:59,516
stuff. That’s all part of it,

735
00:22:59,538 –> 00:23:01,068
right. I tell people all the

736
00:23:01,074 –> 00:23:02,972
time and I say this light

737
00:23:03,026 –> 00:23:04,616
heartedly, but I actually deep

738
00:23:04,648 –> 00:23:07,884
down believe it. I do think

739
00:23:07,922 –> 00:23:09,016
we’re going to have a world War

740
00:23:09,058 –> 00:23:10,688
Three. I don’t think it’s going

741
00:23:10,694 –> 00:23:11,744
to be Russia in the United

742
00:23:11,782 –> 00:23:13,136
States or the United States in

743
00:23:13,158 –> 00:23:15,308
China or China. I think it’s

744
00:23:15,324 –> 00:23:17,136
going to be Amazon and Google. I

745
00:23:17,158 –> 00:23:18,256
think Amazon and Google are

746
00:23:18,278 –> 00:23:19,376
going to get really pissed off

747
00:23:19,398 –> 00:23:20,884
at the human race and if they

748
00:23:20,922 –> 00:23:22,644
shut those two companies down we

749
00:23:22,682 –> 00:23:24,036
do not exist anymore. The

750
00:23:24,058 –> 00:23:27,044
apocalypse is upon us if those

751
00:23:27,082 –> 00:23:28,356
two companies decide to go to

752
00:23:28,378 –> 00:23:30,868
war with each other. But it’s

753
00:23:30,884 –> 00:23:35,144
the same. We’re a little

754
00:23:35,182 –> 00:23:36,328
scattered a little bit and I’m

755
00:23:36,334 –> 00:23:36,890
sure.

756
00:23:38,780 –> 00:23:39,640
We’Re going to bring it on.

757
00:23:39,710 –> 00:23:40,616
You’ll bring us back in a

758
00:23:40,638 –> 00:23:42,840
second. But I’m just saying that

759
00:23:42,990 –> 00:23:44,916
this is what starts heading us

760
00:23:44,958 –> 00:23:46,684
into this direction that we feel

761
00:23:46,722 –> 00:23:47,852
like there’s no coming back

762
00:23:47,906 –> 00:23:50,316
from, right? Is the fact that

763
00:23:50,338 –> 00:23:52,332
now we have these companies that

764
00:23:52,386 –> 00:23:53,836
really control more of what we

765
00:23:53,858 –> 00:23:55,276
think and how we act and what we

766
00:23:55,298 –> 00:23:59,344
do than our parents, than our

767
00:23:59,382 –> 00:24:00,828
grandparents that are teaching

768
00:24:00,844 –> 00:24:02,064
us the same. Like you said

769
00:24:02,102 –> 00:24:03,328
earlier, the whole sticks and

770
00:24:03,334 –> 00:24:04,396
stones may break my bones

771
00:24:04,428 –> 00:24:06,176
scenario. But you can’t get that

772
00:24:06,198 –> 00:24:07,456
from Google. You can’t get that

773
00:24:07,478 –> 00:24:08,996
from Amazon. You can’t get that

774
00:24:09,018 –> 00:24:12,068
from Spotify or now all of a

775
00:24:12,074 –> 00:24:13,984
sudden we’re learning our life’s

776
00:24:14,032 –> 00:24:16,372
lessons from these just things

777
00:24:16,426 –> 00:24:18,676
that don’t matter. So now we

778
00:24:18,698 –> 00:24:19,988
feel like the rest don’t matter.

779
00:24:20,074 –> 00:24:21,788
Well here’s a bake your noodle

780
00:24:21,824 –> 00:24:22,168
question.

781
00:24:22,254 –> 00:24:24,328
Okay, this is interesting that

782
00:24:24,334 –> 00:24:25,450
you bring this up.

783
00:24:25,980 –> 00:24:27,828
One of the things that Augustine

784
00:24:27,924 –> 00:24:29,992
does in City of God is he

785
00:24:30,046 –> 00:24:32,648
presumes that the Roman pagans

786
00:24:32,664 –> 00:24:34,204
he’s arguing against have free

787
00:24:34,242 –> 00:24:37,036
will. It’s not even a thing.

788
00:24:37,058 –> 00:24:40,236
It’s like air. He’s like why

789
00:24:40,258 –> 00:24:41,116
would we even argue about that?

790
00:24:41,138 –> 00:24:46,476
Now 2000 years later we’re not

791
00:24:46,498 –> 00:24:48,428
on the cusp. We’ve been saying

792
00:24:48,514 –> 00:24:50,056
for well over 80.

793
00:24:50,088 –> 00:24:52,060
Years in our western culture

794
00:24:52,640 –> 00:24:54,348
that there is no free will.

795
00:24:54,514 –> 00:24:56,752
We’re just a set of automatons

796
00:24:56,936 –> 00:24:59,936
that are behaviorally programmed

797
00:24:59,968 –> 00:25:01,476
and driven by either nature or

798
00:25:01,498 –> 00:25:02,276
nurturer. It doesn’t matter

799
00:25:02,298 –> 00:25:03,476
which one you pick. We’re just

800
00:25:03,498 –> 00:25:06,356
behaviorally driven. And in the

801
00:25:06,378 –> 00:25:07,876
last 20 years of.

802
00:25:07,898 –> 00:25:10,088
The internet, particularly the

803
00:25:10,094 –> 00:25:10,616
last 20 years.

804
00:25:10,638 –> 00:25:12,200
Of social media on the internet,

805
00:25:12,780 –> 00:25:15,992
the behaviorists who believe in

806
00:25:16,126 –> 00:25:18,584
the automation of humanity would

807
00:25:18,622 –> 00:25:20,344
say it’s been proven that we are

808
00:25:20,382 –> 00:25:22,476
automatons. Because I can get

809
00:25:22,498 –> 00:25:24,584
you to click on some argument

810
00:25:24,632 –> 00:25:25,596
that doesn’t matter, so.

811
00:25:25,618 –> 00:25:28,110
I can sell you more stuff. Yeah.

812
00:25:30,720 –> 00:25:32,124
Or drive your thought process,

813
00:25:32,242 –> 00:25:32,476
right?

814
00:25:32,498 –> 00:25:33,710
Or drive your thought process.

815
00:25:35,840 –> 00:25:37,180
They would push back against

816
00:25:37,250 –> 00:25:39,564
Augustine or an Augustinian

817
00:25:39,612 –> 00:25:41,170
argument, and they would say,

818
00:25:41,620 –> 00:25:43,324
there is no free will. That’s

819
00:25:43,372 –> 00:25:44,848
BS. That’s the thing that we can

820
00:25:44,854 –> 00:25:45,808
get rid of. You’re just a

821
00:25:45,814 –> 00:25:46,868
programmed you’re just a

822
00:25:46,874 –> 00:25:48,548
programmed you’re just a

823
00:25:48,554 –> 00:25:50,564
programmed robot, basically.

824
00:25:50,682 –> 00:25:52,996
Well, yeah, you’re an AI with

825
00:25:53,018 –> 00:25:54,436
better software, which is why we

826
00:25:54,458 –> 00:25:56,336
fear our AI, by the way. That’s

827
00:25:56,368 –> 00:25:56,950
why.

828
00:25:59,740 –> 00:26:01,850
I don’t buy it, though.

829
00:26:02,940 –> 00:26:04,856
And I’ve never bought it. And

830
00:26:04,878 –> 00:26:06,264
the reason why I don’t buy.

831
00:26:06,302 –> 00:26:09,336
It is because I’ve known too

832
00:26:09,358 –> 00:26:10,730
many people in my life,

833
00:26:11,500 –> 00:26:13,748
personally and professionally,

834
00:26:13,924 –> 00:26:15,116
and maybe you could chalk this

835
00:26:15,138 –> 00:26:17,804
up to anecdote. Sure, okay. But

836
00:26:17,842 –> 00:26:19,356
I know too many people in my

837
00:26:19,378 –> 00:26:22,476
life and even myself, who, at.

838
00:26:22,498 –> 00:26:23,756
The moment of choosing, made a

839
00:26:23,778 –> 00:26:24,460
choice.

840
00:26:25,060 –> 00:26:28,050
And Google is not there. Sorry,

841
00:26:28,660 –> 00:26:30,352
Amazon is not there.

842
00:26:30,486 –> 00:26:32,690
Sorry, Facebook is not there.

843
00:26:33,460 –> 00:26:35,072
They’re not there at that moment

844
00:26:35,126 –> 00:26:35,344
of.

845
00:26:35,382 –> 00:26:38,276
Choosing, at the moment when I

846
00:26:38,378 –> 00:26:44,436
go, I’ll grant you, things may

847
00:26:44,458 –> 00:26:48,004
be automated. In my head, the

848
00:26:48,042 –> 00:26:48,836
click were, as.

849
00:26:48,858 –> 00:26:50,308
Robert Sealdini, the author of

850
00:26:50,314 –> 00:26:51,396
Influence the Psychology of

851
00:26:51,418 –> 00:26:52,568
Persuasion, would say, which I

852
00:26:52,574 –> 00:26:53,608
do believe in the psychology of

853
00:26:53,614 –> 00:26:55,048
persuasion. The psychology of

854
00:26:55,054 –> 00:26:56,968
persuasion works on me

855
00:26:57,054 –> 00:26:58,856
absolutely all the way up to

856
00:26:58,878 –> 00:26:58,968
the.

857
00:26:58,974 –> 00:27:01,576
Click were point where I have

858
00:27:01,598 –> 00:27:01,736
to.

859
00:27:01,758 –> 00:27:03,612
Decide, do I doom scroll past

860
00:27:03,666 –> 00:27:03,836
or.

861
00:27:03,858 –> 00:27:06,376
Click on that ad? But there’s

862
00:27:06,408 –> 00:27:08,972
still a choice there, even.

863
00:27:09,026 –> 00:27:10,264
Down to the microscopic

864
00:27:10,312 –> 00:27:12,828
fragment. I may not understand

865
00:27:12,994 –> 00:27:15,888
what the choice is. I may not

866
00:27:15,974 –> 00:27:21,420
even be a completely free actor

867
00:27:21,500 –> 00:27:23,664
in that choice, but if I’m even

868
00:27:23,702 –> 00:27:25,676
1% free in that, I’m.

869
00:27:25,708 –> 00:27:26,880
Still a free actor.

870
00:27:27,780 –> 00:27:29,264
And I don’t disagree with you.

871
00:27:29,302 –> 00:27:30,996
And when the scenario that we

872
00:27:31,018 –> 00:27:32,356
were talking about a second ago

873
00:27:32,378 –> 00:27:33,396
about whether you click it or

874
00:27:33,418 –> 00:27:35,876
not click it, the problem is

875
00:27:35,978 –> 00:27:37,364
that people like Google and

876
00:27:37,402 –> 00:27:39,156
Facebook and Amazon and

877
00:27:39,258 –> 00:27:41,328
whomever, they’re playing the

878
00:27:41,354 –> 00:27:43,850
odds, because the odds are that,

879
00:27:45,260 –> 00:27:46,648
by the way, it doesn’t have to

880
00:27:46,654 –> 00:27:48,490
be a click either. By the way,

881
00:27:49,180 –> 00:27:50,936
there was a point of time in the

882
00:27:50,958 –> 00:27:52,388
city that I live in, and I won’t

883
00:27:52,404 –> 00:27:53,976
give it away. If you’ve seen us

884
00:27:53,998 –> 00:27:55,064
on other podcasts, you probably

885
00:27:55,102 –> 00:27:55,948
already know where I live. But I

886
00:27:55,954 –> 00:27:56,636
won’t give it away for this

887
00:27:56,658 –> 00:27:58,540
purpose because it might matter.

888
00:27:58,690 –> 00:28:00,590
So the city that I live in,

889
00:28:01,360 –> 00:28:02,908
there was clickbait all over the

890
00:28:02,914 –> 00:28:06,364
place about these protests and

891
00:28:06,402 –> 00:28:07,676
these marches and all these

892
00:28:07,698 –> 00:28:09,436
stuff that if you’re this type

893
00:28:09,458 –> 00:28:10,256
of person, you should get

894
00:28:10,278 –> 00:28:11,136
involved in it. If you’re that

895
00:28:11,158 –> 00:28:11,888
type of person, you should get

896
00:28:11,894 –> 00:28:12,976
involved in if you’re this type

897
00:28:12,998 –> 00:28:15,036
of a lot, just a tremendous

898
00:28:15,068 –> 00:28:16,608
amount on every facet that you

899
00:28:16,614 –> 00:28:17,536
can think of. Now, that being

900
00:28:17,558 –> 00:28:18,708
said, I’m walking down the

901
00:28:18,714 –> 00:28:20,640
street and I see this protest

902
00:28:20,720 –> 00:28:24,404
happening. It’s not a click, but

903
00:28:24,442 –> 00:28:26,388
I might now go, oh, I’m going to

904
00:28:26,394 –> 00:28:28,324
go join them, because I’ve seen

905
00:28:28,362 –> 00:28:29,696
this so many times I’ve clicked

906
00:28:29,728 –> 00:28:32,464
on it, I’ve read a bazillion

907
00:28:32,512 –> 00:28:33,784
times, it’s been pounding into

908
00:28:33,822 –> 00:28:35,064
my brain that what they’re doing

909
00:28:35,102 –> 00:28:37,624
is right or for the right reason

910
00:28:37,662 –> 00:28:39,144
or the right cause or whatever

911
00:28:39,182 –> 00:28:41,556
that is. So now I am less likely

912
00:28:41,588 –> 00:28:43,064
to walk away from that than I am

913
00:28:43,102 –> 00:28:45,236
now going toward it and joining

914
00:28:45,268 –> 00:28:46,824
in on this. And it’s just a

915
00:28:46,862 –> 00:28:48,276
programming issue. Now, to your

916
00:28:48,318 –> 00:28:49,996
point, there is a point where it

917
00:28:50,018 –> 00:28:51,220
is my decision on whether or not

918
00:28:51,230 –> 00:28:52,556
I walk over to that protest and

919
00:28:52,578 –> 00:28:53,816
join them or I just keep walking

920
00:28:53,848 –> 00:28:57,010
down the street. The problem is

921
00:28:58,180 –> 00:28:59,424
I don’t think the question is

922
00:28:59,462 –> 00:29:01,264
whether or not we have free

923
00:29:01,302 –> 00:29:03,056
will. I think the question is do

924
00:29:03,078 –> 00:29:04,912
we actually use it? Do we

925
00:29:04,966 –> 00:29:07,692
actually deploy a fundamental

926
00:29:07,756 –> 00:29:09,136
thought process that makes us

927
00:29:09,158 –> 00:29:11,604
think is this for me or is this

928
00:29:11,642 –> 00:29:12,756
just because I’ve seen it a

929
00:29:12,778 –> 00:29:14,084
thousand times and I think

930
00:29:14,122 –> 00:29:15,424
that’s what’s lacking. It’s

931
00:29:15,472 –> 00:29:16,772
lacking the ability. And again,

932
00:29:16,826 –> 00:29:18,244
like I said, it’s because right

933
00:29:18,282 –> 00:29:21,076
now a very high percentage of

934
00:29:21,098 –> 00:29:22,336
people in the younger

935
00:29:22,368 –> 00:29:23,696
generations are being educated

936
00:29:23,728 –> 00:29:24,936
by Amazon and Google and

937
00:29:24,958 –> 00:29:25,912
Facebook and all these things.

938
00:29:25,966 –> 00:29:27,096
Maybe not Facebook because most

939
00:29:27,118 –> 00:29:27,896
of the young kids don’t care

940
00:29:27,918 –> 00:29:28,728
about Facebook, but you know

941
00:29:28,734 –> 00:29:31,464
what I mean versus asking their

942
00:29:31,502 –> 00:29:32,856
parents because that’s what we

943
00:29:32,878 –> 00:29:34,580
did. We went to our parents for

944
00:29:34,590 –> 00:29:36,156
this information. What is this

945
00:29:36,178 –> 00:29:37,596
protest about? Why do you think

946
00:29:37,618 –> 00:29:39,516
it’s this? Should I join it? No.

947
00:29:39,618 –> 00:29:42,492
Why? We continued to ask the

948
00:29:42,546 –> 00:29:44,236
why, but it was to people that

949
00:29:44,258 –> 00:29:45,968
we felt trusted on that they

950
00:29:45,974 –> 00:29:46,864
were going to give us the right

951
00:29:46,902 –> 00:29:48,512
advice, not a click of a button

952
00:29:48,566 –> 00:29:50,684
that then we had to decipher

953
00:29:50,732 –> 00:29:53,216
whether the algorithm was right

954
00:29:53,238 –> 00:29:56,976
or not. And I don’t mean to get

955
00:29:56,998 –> 00:29:58,864
amped up either. No, it is very

956
00:29:58,902 –> 00:29:59,500
frustrating.

957
00:29:59,580 –> 00:30:01,796
No, get amped up because this is

958
00:30:01,818 –> 00:30:03,300
worth getting frustrated about.

959
00:30:03,370 –> 00:30:04,580
This is the thing where, again,

960
00:30:04,650 –> 00:30:04,836
I.

961
00:30:04,858 –> 00:30:07,076
Think we have to cleave and we

962
00:30:07,098 –> 00:30:08,080
have to clarify.

963
00:30:08,240 –> 00:30:09,956
Those are the two things we have

964
00:30:09,978 –> 00:30:13,616
to do. And I think that there’s

965
00:30:13,648 –> 00:30:14,996
another C in there along with

966
00:30:15,018 –> 00:30:16,776
cleave and clarify. Without that

967
00:30:16,798 –> 00:30:18,168
you get chaos and then there’s a

968
00:30:18,174 –> 00:30:19,716
fourth C in there. Confusion.

969
00:30:19,828 –> 00:30:22,540
Right. And I do believe

970
00:30:22,610 –> 00:30:25,340
fundamentally that entities,

971
00:30:26,080 –> 00:30:27,804
maybe not necessarily Google and

972
00:30:27,842 –> 00:30:29,996
Amazon, but the entities that

973
00:30:30,018 –> 00:30:31,116
Google and Amazon pay.

974
00:30:31,138 –> 00:30:35,344
Taxes to, they like chaos, which

975
00:30:35,382 –> 00:30:35,536
they.

976
00:30:35,558 –> 00:30:37,250
Do works for them.

977
00:30:38,180 –> 00:30:41,570
And the more chaos there is,

978
00:30:42,340 –> 00:30:42,704
the.

979
00:30:42,742 –> 00:30:44,752
More, as Augustine might say,

980
00:30:44,806 –> 00:30:46,816
immoral men. And he does talk

981
00:30:46,838 –> 00:30:47,744
about the chaos of the Roman

982
00:30:47,792 –> 00:30:49,604
Empire, by the way, quite a bit

983
00:30:49,722 –> 00:30:51,044
in the first few books of City

984
00:30:51,082 –> 00:30:54,852
of God, the more immoral men can

985
00:30:54,906 –> 00:30:56,912
engage in immoral behavior.

986
00:30:57,056 –> 00:30:59,860
For their own benefit.

987
00:31:00,280 –> 00:31:01,876
Well, that’s pretty funny. I was

988
00:31:01,898 –> 00:31:03,076
thinking as you were reading oh

989
00:31:03,098 –> 00:31:04,504
my good, good. The more things

990
00:31:04,542 –> 00:31:05,528
change, the more things stay the

991
00:31:05,534 –> 00:31:06,184
same.

992
00:31:06,382 –> 00:31:07,736
That’s right. And that is one of

993
00:31:07,758 –> 00:31:09,876
the things that you yes, you’re

994
00:31:09,908 –> 00:31:10,712
reading about something.

995
00:31:10,766 –> 00:31:13,084
That happened 2000 years ago or

996
00:31:13,202 –> 00:31:14,444
plus or minus a few whatever,

997
00:31:14,482 –> 00:31:16,284
but. A couple of thousand years

998
00:31:16,322 –> 00:31:17,708
ago, and you’re talking about

999
00:31:17,874 –> 00:31:23,036
judgment and how judgment, it

1000
00:31:23,058 –> 00:31:24,476
needs to be true and pure. And

1001
00:31:24,498 –> 00:31:26,396
I’m like, Good Lord, how do we

1002
00:31:26,418 –> 00:31:28,140
not learn from this? We’re still

1003
00:31:28,210 –> 00:31:30,496
trying to figure out how to

1004
00:31:30,678 –> 00:31:31,808
well, and I think that

1005
00:31:31,894 –> 00:31:32,748
judgments.

1006
00:31:32,924 –> 00:31:33,824
Well, and I’m going to get into

1007
00:31:33,862 –> 00:31:34,544
this today. This is another

1008
00:31:34,582 –> 00:31:35,904
thing we’re going to bring in. I

1009
00:31:35,942 –> 00:31:37,268
think that that’s a strength of

1010
00:31:37,274 –> 00:31:38,180
the west.

1011
00:31:38,760 –> 00:31:40,340
I don’t think it’s a weakness

1012
00:31:41,320 –> 00:31:42,070
now.

1013
00:31:42,760 –> 00:31:43,584
Oswald.

1014
00:31:43,632 –> 00:31:45,744
Well, nah, I won’t use spangler.

1015
00:31:45,872 –> 00:31:48,256
There were thinkers let me frame

1016
00:31:48,288 –> 00:31:50,968
it this way. During World and

1017
00:31:50,974 –> 00:31:51,944
there have always been, but

1018
00:31:51,982 –> 00:31:53,364
World War II was the most recent

1019
00:31:53,412 –> 00:31:56,984
example. Well, no, actually,

1020
00:31:57,022 –> 00:31:57,656
World War II is.

1021
00:31:57,678 –> 00:31:58,810
The most recent example.

1022
00:32:00,780 –> 00:32:04,044
Osama bin Laden, he was a very

1023
00:32:04,082 –> 00:32:05,070
recent example.

1024
00:32:07,840 –> 00:32:09,672
Osama bin Laden fundamentally

1025
00:32:09,736 –> 00:32:11,468
believed that if.

1026
00:32:11,474 –> 00:32:12,728
He knocked out the World Trade

1027
00:32:12,744 –> 00:32:13,356
Center.

1028
00:32:13,538 –> 00:32:15,532
The United States would shrink

1029
00:32:15,596 –> 00:32:19,552
and run away. He absolutely

1030
00:32:19,686 –> 00:32:20,432
believed that.

1031
00:32:20,486 –> 00:32:22,210
That’s why he spent ten years

1032
00:32:23,540 –> 00:32:26,520
yeah, seven years plotting,

1033
00:32:26,620 –> 00:32:28,148
planning, putting things in.

1034
00:32:28,154 –> 00:32:29,750
Motion, making it happen,

1035
00:32:30,200 –> 00:32:33,876
because he observed behavior in

1036
00:32:33,898 –> 00:32:36,368
1993, when the World Trade

1037
00:32:36,384 –> 00:32:38,132
Center was attacked the first

1038
00:32:38,186 –> 00:32:40,312
time, that.

1039
00:32:40,366 –> 00:32:42,728
Indicated to him from his

1040
00:32:42,814 –> 00:32:44,440
Eastern worldview.

1041
00:32:45,660 –> 00:32:47,816
And Islam is fundamentally an

1042
00:32:47,838 –> 00:32:50,632
Eastern religion. So from his

1043
00:32:50,686 –> 00:32:53,236
Eastern worldview, undergirded

1044
00:32:53,268 –> 00:32:56,968
by Islam, he believed and I’m

1045
00:32:56,974 –> 00:32:57,372
not saying.

1046
00:32:57,426 –> 00:32:58,204
Anything that isn’t already

1047
00:32:58,242 –> 00:32:59,116
written down that you can’t find

1048
00:32:59,138 –> 00:33:00,236
everywhere on speaking of the

1049
00:33:00,258 –> 00:33:00,956
Internet, you can’t find

1050
00:33:00,978 –> 00:33:01,916
everywhere on the Internet. Just

1051
00:33:01,938 –> 00:33:02,990
go look it up.

1052
00:33:04,320 –> 00:33:05,424
He believed that the United

1053
00:33:05,462 –> 00:33:06,736
States would cut and run.

1054
00:33:06,918 –> 00:33:08,768
They were, in his language, a

1055
00:33:08,774 –> 00:33:10,204
weak horse. We were a weak

1056
00:33:10,252 –> 00:33:16,756
horse. Now in 2023, gosh, what,

1057
00:33:16,778 –> 00:33:21,124
like 30 years on from 1993? We

1058
00:33:21,162 –> 00:33:24,404
can look at the 17, almost 20

1059
00:33:24,442 –> 00:33:25,572
years we spent in the Middle

1060
00:33:25,626 –> 00:33:26,260
East.

1061
00:33:28,200 –> 00:33:30,552
As a failure from our

1062
00:33:30,606 –> 00:33:33,704
perspective in the west, but

1063
00:33:33,742 –> 00:33:36,104
from the perspective of Al

1064
00:33:36,142 –> 00:33:38,964
Qaeda, what Osama bin Laden.

1065
00:33:39,012 –> 00:33:42,572
Did was a massive strategic and

1066
00:33:42,626 –> 00:33:47,148
tactical failure. Because just

1067
00:33:47,234 –> 00:33:48,684
like the Japanese in World.

1068
00:33:48,722 –> 00:33:53,004
War II or the Koreans and the.

1069
00:33:53,042 –> 00:33:57,048
Chinese in the Korean War or I’m

1070
00:33:57,064 –> 00:33:58,116
going to skip over Vietnam

1071
00:33:58,168 –> 00:33:59,568
because it doesn’t fit the

1072
00:33:59,574 –> 00:34:00,876
model. Although, interestingly

1073
00:34:00,908 –> 00:34:01,648
enough, all the way up to the

1074
00:34:01,654 –> 00:34:02,716
ted offensive in the Vietnam

1075
00:34:02,748 –> 00:34:04,108
War, the Vietnamese generals

1076
00:34:04,124 –> 00:34:04,816
even said we.

1077
00:34:04,838 –> 00:34:07,244
Were basically beating the pants

1078
00:34:07,292 –> 00:34:08,064
off of them.

1079
00:34:08,182 –> 00:34:09,472
And then when the Ted offensive

1080
00:34:09,536 –> 00:34:12,404
occurred, because of the way

1081
00:34:12,442 –> 00:34:15,076
that was framed in the American

1082
00:34:15,178 –> 00:34:16,756
media, things were able to

1083
00:34:16,778 –> 00:34:18,016
shift, and they sensed the shift

1084
00:34:18,048 –> 00:34:19,028
and were able to move ahead of

1085
00:34:19,034 –> 00:34:20,616
it rather than stick behind it.

1086
00:34:20,718 –> 00:34:21,736
So I’m going to leave that one

1087
00:34:21,758 –> 00:34:22,568
out because that one’s a little

1088
00:34:22,574 –> 00:34:25,048
bit more muddy. But through even

1089
00:34:25,214 –> 00:34:27,316
the terrorist attack moments

1090
00:34:27,348 –> 00:34:31,224
from the Marine, well, the

1091
00:34:31,262 –> 00:34:34,124
release of the prisoners under

1092
00:34:34,162 –> 00:34:36,056
the Reagan administration, iran

1093
00:34:36,088 –> 00:34:37,256
Contra affairs, ryan Contra

1094
00:34:37,288 –> 00:34:38,412
affairs, all that.

1095
00:34:38,546 –> 00:34:40,956
All the way up to our

1096
00:34:41,058 –> 00:34:41,864
ignominious.

1097
00:34:41,912 –> 00:34:43,036
Great power withdrawal in

1098
00:34:43,058 –> 00:34:46,064
Afghanistan recently, all of

1099
00:34:46,102 –> 00:34:47,010
that, right?

1100
00:34:47,700 –> 00:34:48,524
Our enemies.

1101
00:34:48,572 –> 00:34:49,952
Look at that. And I do say our

1102
00:34:50,006 –> 00:34:50,864
enemies because the United

1103
00:34:50,902 –> 00:34:53,424
States does have enemies. But

1104
00:34:53,462 –> 00:34:55,532
even broadly philosophical

1105
00:34:55,596 –> 00:34:56,732
enemies of the west.

1106
00:34:56,796 –> 00:34:57,652
Look at that.

1107
00:34:57,786 –> 00:34:59,136
They look at all of those kinds.

1108
00:34:59,168 –> 00:35:00,100
Of events, and they draw

1109
00:35:00,170 –> 00:35:01,316
different conclusions than we

1110
00:35:01,338 –> 00:35:03,508
do. Yeah, true.

1111
00:35:03,674 –> 00:35:05,428
And we only know our

1112
00:35:05,514 –> 00:35:06,500
conclusions.

1113
00:35:07,640 –> 00:35:09,072
We don’t know theirs.

1114
00:35:09,136 –> 00:35:10,184
So for all of this new

1115
00:35:10,222 –> 00:35:12,456
information we’ve got, the

1116
00:35:12,478 –> 00:35:13,690
reason why we’re still.

1117
00:35:14,460 –> 00:35:17,096
Arguing like St. Augustine is

1118
00:35:17,118 –> 00:35:17,588
because we’re.

1119
00:35:17,604 –> 00:35:18,424
Doing something that is

1120
00:35:18,462 –> 00:35:19,416
fundamental to how.

1121
00:35:19,438 –> 00:35:21,304
The west actually operates, how

1122
00:35:21,342 –> 00:35:24,344
Western thought actually thinks.

1123
00:35:24,392 –> 00:35:26,748
And it starts from debate with a

1124
00:35:26,754 –> 00:35:27,752
rhetorical flourish.

1125
00:35:27,816 –> 00:35:29,084
It starts from debating about

1126
00:35:29,122 –> 00:35:31,064
objective reality. It starts

1127
00:35:31,112 –> 00:35:33,832
from even the Ottoman Empire

1128
00:35:33,896 –> 00:35:35,672
noticed this when they invaded

1129
00:35:35,816 –> 00:35:37,308
the Hapsburg Empire. The

1130
00:35:37,314 –> 00:35:39,140
Venetians, right, the Venetians

1131
00:35:39,160 –> 00:35:40,848
were literally arguing all the

1132
00:35:40,854 –> 00:35:42,496
way up to the point where they

1133
00:35:42,518 –> 00:35:43,888
had to get a cannon to shoot at

1134
00:35:43,894 –> 00:35:45,936
the Turks, and the Turks were

1135
00:35:45,958 –> 00:35:47,584
like, at the gate. And the

1136
00:35:47,622 –> 00:35:49,232
reason we laugh is because.

1137
00:35:49,366 –> 00:35:50,676
What the hell do we do here in

1138
00:35:50,698 –> 00:35:54,016
America? We argue and we argue

1139
00:35:54,048 –> 00:35:54,356
and we.

1140
00:35:54,378 –> 00:35:55,824
Argue and we argue and we argue

1141
00:35:55,872 –> 00:35:57,344
or we argue or we argue

1142
00:35:57,472 –> 00:35:58,996
literally all the way up to the

1143
00:35:59,018 –> 00:36:01,156
point of a soldier jumping out

1144
00:36:01,178 –> 00:36:01,808
of a plane.

1145
00:36:01,904 –> 00:36:03,076
But then once a soldier jumps

1146
00:36:03,108 –> 00:36:08,134
out of the plane, well, I guess

1147
00:36:08,172 –> 00:36:11,400
we’re going now. Yeah.

1148
00:36:12,970 –> 00:36:14,086
Don’t get me wrong. There’s some

1149
00:36:14,108 –> 00:36:15,258
very Bernie Sanders things in

1150
00:36:15,264 –> 00:36:16,026
here, too. I’m going to point

1151
00:36:16,048 –> 00:36:17,258
those things out today.

1152
00:36:17,424 –> 00:36:18,826
Augustine was not a fan of

1153
00:36:18,848 –> 00:36:22,570
endless war. But my point is

1154
00:36:22,720 –> 00:36:23,514
that idea of.

1155
00:36:23,552 –> 00:36:25,290
Argumentation and debate.

1156
00:36:27,150 –> 00:36:29,446
And wrangling ideas, that’s

1157
00:36:29,478 –> 00:36:30,186
something that needs to be

1158
00:36:30,208 –> 00:36:31,306
preserved in the west, and

1159
00:36:31,328 –> 00:36:32,086
that’s why free speech.

1160
00:36:32,118 –> 00:36:32,970
Matters.

1161
00:36:36,910 –> 00:36:39,394
And free will. And those

1162
00:36:39,432 –> 00:36:41,826
arguments are ancient to the

1163
00:36:41,848 –> 00:36:43,458
west. All right, back to the

1164
00:36:43,464 –> 00:36:44,786
book. Back to so that’s our

1165
00:36:44,808 –> 00:36:45,858
opening. So welcome to the

1166
00:36:45,864 –> 00:36:47,010
podcast, folks.

1167
00:36:50,550 –> 00:36:51,394
Back to the book.

1168
00:36:51,432 –> 00:36:54,802
Back to City of God by St.

1169
00:36:54,856 –> 00:36:56,086
Augustine. We’re going to read

1170
00:36:56,188 –> 00:36:57,202
book two, chapter.

1171
00:36:57,266 –> 00:36:59,638
Six, going to pick this up a

1172
00:36:59,644 –> 00:36:59,926
little bit.

1173
00:36:59,948 –> 00:37:00,966
By the way, the edition that we

1174
00:37:00,988 –> 00:37:02,358
are reading, you did see it on

1175
00:37:02,364 –> 00:37:04,906
the video of the podcast. And by

1176
00:37:04,928 –> 00:37:07,354
the way, the Full title of City

1177
00:37:07,392 –> 00:37:09,818
Of God is concerning the City Of

1178
00:37:09,824 –> 00:37:12,026
God against The Pagans. So my

1179
00:37:12,048 –> 00:37:13,654
version was from Penguin Books,

1180
00:37:13,702 –> 00:37:15,862
translated by Henry Bentinson

1181
00:37:16,006 –> 00:37:17,390
with an introduction by Gr

1182
00:37:17,460 –> 00:37:18,190
Evans.

1183
00:37:18,850 –> 00:37:20,142
The City of God was first

1184
00:37:20,196 –> 00:37:20,634
published.

1185
00:37:20,682 –> 00:37:22,986
In a book form, not a folio

1186
00:37:23,018 –> 00:37:25,854
form, in a book form in 1467.

1187
00:37:26,052 –> 00:37:27,454
Wow. Yeah.

1188
00:37:27,572 –> 00:37:29,394
And this translation was first

1189
00:37:29,432 –> 00:37:30,786
published by Pelican Books in

1190
00:37:30,808 –> 00:37:35,598
1972 with a republished reissued

1191
00:37:35,694 –> 00:37:38,194
version in 2003 with better

1192
00:37:38,232 –> 00:37:38,814
footnotes.

1193
00:37:38,862 –> 00:37:42,754
So back to the book. Book Two,

1194
00:37:42,792 –> 00:37:44,760
chapter Six the City of God.

1195
00:37:45,850 –> 00:37:47,094
This is the reason why those

1196
00:37:47,132 –> 00:37:48,438
divinities have no concern and

1197
00:37:48,444 –> 00:37:49,394
by the way, those divinities

1198
00:37:49,442 –> 00:37:50,518
he’s talking about, he means the

1199
00:37:50,524 –> 00:37:52,882
pagan gods like Jupiter or Zeus

1200
00:37:52,946 –> 00:37:53,874
or Athena.

1201
00:37:53,922 –> 00:37:54,326
Okay?

1202
00:37:54,428 –> 00:37:55,446
This is the reason why those

1203
00:37:55,468 –> 00:37:56,658
divinities have no concern for

1204
00:37:56,684 –> 00:37:57,866
the morals of the cities and

1205
00:37:57,888 –> 00:37:59,434
peoples by whom they were

1206
00:37:59,472 –> 00:38:01,526
worshipped. Rather, they allowed

1207
00:38:01,558 –> 00:38:02,854
the most terrible and abominable

1208
00:38:02,902 –> 00:38:04,426
evils to have free play to the

1209
00:38:04,448 –> 00:38:06,406
utmost detriment, not of lands

1210
00:38:06,438 –> 00:38:07,658
and vines, not of houses and

1211
00:38:07,664 –> 00:38:09,210
property, not even of the body

1212
00:38:09,360 –> 00:38:10,670
which is the servant of the mind

1213
00:38:10,740 –> 00:38:12,126
but of the mind itself, the

1214
00:38:12,148 –> 00:38:14,974
actual ruler of the flesh. They

1215
00:38:15,012 –> 00:38:16,126
allowed this. They did not use

1216
00:38:16,148 –> 00:38:17,614
their awful power to prevent it

1217
00:38:17,652 –> 00:38:18,926
or if they did try to stop it,

1218
00:38:18,948 –> 00:38:20,786
let us have the evidence and we

1219
00:38:20,808 –> 00:38:21,762
do not want to hear general

1220
00:38:21,816 –> 00:38:23,214
assertions about whispers

1221
00:38:23,262 –> 00:38:25,134
breathe in the ears of a chosen

1222
00:38:25,182 –> 00:38:27,326
few and handed down by a secret

1223
00:38:27,358 –> 00:38:27,806
religious.

1224
00:38:27,838 –> 00:38:30,466
Tradition teaching integrity and

1225
00:38:30,488 –> 00:38:31,298
purity of life.

1226
00:38:31,384 –> 00:38:33,282
Let the pagans show, or even

1227
00:38:33,336 –> 00:38:35,038
mention the place is consecrated

1228
00:38:35,054 –> 00:38:36,406
for such gatherings where what

1229
00:38:36,428 –> 00:38:38,114
happens is not the performance

1230
00:38:38,162 –> 00:38:39,746
of spectacles marked by lewd

1231
00:38:39,778 –> 00:38:41,078
utterances and gestures on the

1232
00:38:41,084 –> 00:38:42,786
part of actors with a free reign

1233
00:38:42,818 –> 00:38:44,246
to every kind of depravity. Not

1234
00:38:44,268 –> 00:38:45,490
the celebration of the flight of

1235
00:38:45,500 –> 00:38:47,226
kings, which is really the

1236
00:38:47,248 –> 00:38:47,786
flight of.

1237
00:38:47,808 –> 00:38:50,826
All decency and morality, but

1238
00:38:50,848 –> 00:38:51,146
where the.

1239
00:38:51,168 –> 00:38:52,506
Assembled people can hear the

1240
00:38:52,528 –> 00:38:54,026
commands of the gods about the

1241
00:38:54,048 –> 00:38:55,786
needs to restrain avarice, to

1242
00:38:55,808 –> 00:38:57,546
curb ambition, to put a check on

1243
00:38:57,568 –> 00:38:59,646
lust, and where wretched men may

1244
00:38:59,668 –> 00:39:01,354
learn the lesson that perseus

1245
00:39:01,402 –> 00:39:02,666
teaches in a voice of sharp

1246
00:39:02,698 –> 00:39:05,082
reproach. Quote ye wretches,

1247
00:39:05,146 –> 00:39:06,974
learn what we men are and for

1248
00:39:07,012 –> 00:39:08,606
what life were born. Find out

1249
00:39:08,628 –> 00:39:10,030
your station in the race of life

1250
00:39:10,100 –> 00:39:12,218
and how to turn your corners.

1251
00:39:12,314 –> 00:39:13,746
Learn the limit to be placed on

1252
00:39:13,768 –> 00:39:14,946
wealth and learn how much to

1253
00:39:14,968 –> 00:39:15,166
pray.

1254
00:39:15,198 –> 00:39:16,946
For the good that can be done.

1255
00:39:16,968 –> 00:39:18,466
With the crude coin how much to

1256
00:39:18,488 –> 00:39:20,180
give to country and to friends.

1257
00:39:20,790 –> 00:39:22,322
Find out the role that God

1258
00:39:22,376 –> 00:39:22,546
would.

1259
00:39:22,568 –> 00:39:24,386
Have you play the part assigned

1260
00:39:24,418 –> 00:39:25,862
you in the scheme of things.

1261
00:39:25,996 –> 00:39:29,158
Close quote let us be told in.

1262
00:39:29,164 –> 00:39:30,354
What places those divine

1263
00:39:30,402 –> 00:39:31,586
precepts are regularly

1264
00:39:31,618 –> 00:39:33,238
proclaimed in the hearing of the

1265
00:39:33,244 –> 00:39:35,354
people assembled for worship. We

1266
00:39:35,392 –> 00:39:36,586
on our part can point to

1267
00:39:36,608 –> 00:39:37,834
churches set up for this very

1268
00:39:37,872 –> 00:39:38,502
purpose.

1269
00:39:38,646 –> 00:39:40,726
Wherever the Christian religion

1270
00:39:40,918 –> 00:39:51,126
is spread. There’s a reason I

1271
00:39:51,148 –> 00:39:52,742
like Augustine, like.

1272
00:39:52,796 –> 00:39:55,122
Reading that kind of rhetoric

1273
00:39:55,186 –> 00:39:57,622
because Augustine follows a very

1274
00:39:57,676 –> 00:40:02,614
simple mode of argumentation and

1275
00:40:02,652 –> 00:40:03,874
it is a mode of argumentation

1276
00:40:03,922 –> 00:40:05,270
that I think needs to come back

1277
00:40:05,340 –> 00:40:08,038
into our discourse in the west.

1278
00:40:08,214 –> 00:40:10,618
To Tom’s point in my own point a

1279
00:40:10,624 –> 00:40:12,618
little bit earlier here and it.

1280
00:40:12,624 –> 00:40:14,474
Could be summed up just sort of.

1281
00:40:14,512 –> 00:40:17,098
In this way you, meaning the

1282
00:40:17,104 –> 00:40:17,966
person on the other side of an

1283
00:40:17,988 –> 00:40:19,806
argument, have a worldview. Here

1284
00:40:19,828 –> 00:40:21,214
are the examples that I can.

1285
00:40:21,252 –> 00:40:23,086
Provide on how that worldview is

1286
00:40:23,108 –> 00:40:23,850
failing.

1287
00:40:24,010 –> 00:40:25,326
Tell me why that worldview is

1288
00:40:25,348 –> 00:40:26,674
better than what I have to offer

1289
00:40:26,712 –> 00:40:26,914
from.

1290
00:40:26,952 –> 00:40:30,914
My worldview and don’t use my

1291
00:40:30,952 –> 00:40:33,762
worldview to justify yours. Use

1292
00:40:33,816 –> 00:40:34,660
your own.

1293
00:40:35,590 –> 00:40:37,266
You believe in a certain set of

1294
00:40:37,288 –> 00:40:40,258
things. Cool. Don’t reference

1295
00:40:40,354 –> 00:40:42,514
what I believe to justify

1296
00:40:42,642 –> 00:40:45,894
yourself. This is an interesting

1297
00:40:46,092 –> 00:40:49,526
discourse approach, right. It

1298
00:40:49,548 –> 00:40:51,174
becomes the basis later on, many

1299
00:40:51,212 –> 00:40:53,074
years later for classical debate

1300
00:40:53,202 –> 00:40:54,562
and debate among classical

1301
00:40:54,626 –> 00:40:57,194
scholars. We live in a different

1302
00:40:57,232 –> 00:40:59,322
kind of time, though, where that

1303
00:40:59,376 –> 00:41:01,354
sort of classical discourse is

1304
00:41:01,392 –> 00:41:03,966
seen to be intellectual and

1305
00:41:03,988 –> 00:41:05,374
maybe during its own time. It

1306
00:41:05,412 –> 00:41:05,950
was.

1307
00:41:06,100 –> 00:41:09,614
But in our times, it is seen.

1308
00:41:09,652 –> 00:41:11,886
As being stifling or being a

1309
00:41:11,908 –> 00:41:14,714
sign of supremacy of either race

1310
00:41:14,762 –> 00:41:17,300
or intellect. Take your pick,

1311
00:41:18,230 –> 00:41:19,954
because of the ability to even

1312
00:41:19,992 –> 00:41:21,506
think through it all the way to

1313
00:41:21,528 –> 00:41:22,820
its logical end.

1314
00:41:25,030 –> 00:41:26,594
However, there is something

1315
00:41:26,632 –> 00:41:27,746
valuable in this mode of

1316
00:41:27,768 –> 00:41:28,610
rhetoric.

1317
00:41:29,110 –> 00:41:30,774
Leaders can learn from this

1318
00:41:30,812 –> 00:41:33,560
mode. Leaders can learn how to

1319
00:41:34,010 –> 00:41:35,494
set up an argument, how to

1320
00:41:35,532 –> 00:41:38,230
persuade, how to defend from

1321
00:41:38,380 –> 00:41:40,438
this mode of argumentation. As a

1322
00:41:40,444 –> 00:41:41,706
matter of fact, I would.

1323
00:41:41,728 –> 00:41:42,826
Encourage leaders to think about

1324
00:41:42,848 –> 00:41:43,900
this this way.

1325
00:41:44,670 –> 00:41:46,282
If you are faced with a person.

1326
00:41:46,336 –> 00:41:49,050
Who is opposing you in a debate.

1327
00:41:50,270 –> 00:41:54,202
Ask them how and where their

1328
00:41:54,256 –> 00:41:54,474
thought.

1329
00:41:54,512 –> 00:41:57,040
Process will ultimately end up.

1330
00:41:58,450 –> 00:42:00,202
See if they’ve done the logical

1331
00:42:00,266 –> 00:42:01,470
conclusion thing.

1332
00:42:01,620 –> 00:42:02,746
And by the way, if they haven’t.

1333
00:42:02,778 –> 00:42:04,558
If they get all upset, if they

1334
00:42:04,724 –> 00:42:06,826
if they revert to emotional

1335
00:42:06,858 –> 00:42:09,154
appeals, or if they blow up, or

1336
00:42:09,272 –> 00:42:11,218
like Myra Burlow back in the

1337
00:42:11,224 –> 00:42:14,366
day, threatened to stab Jeff

1338
00:42:14,398 –> 00:42:16,994
Bezos once in a meeting way back

1339
00:42:17,032 –> 00:42:18,954
in, like, 2003, if they resort

1340
00:42:19,022 –> 00:42:20,978
to intimidation into violence.

1341
00:42:21,074 –> 00:42:22,454
And by the way, not words, is

1342
00:42:22,492 –> 00:42:24,390
violence, actual violence?

1343
00:42:26,890 –> 00:42:28,146
And I hate to tell you leaders,

1344
00:42:28,178 –> 00:42:29,830
you’ve probably won the debate.

1345
00:42:33,650 –> 00:42:35,678
But what have you won, exactly?

1346
00:42:35,844 –> 00:42:37,054
Have you convinced the other

1347
00:42:37,092 –> 00:42:38,458
person, or have you merely

1348
00:42:38,554 –> 00:42:42,654
created a stalemate? This way of

1349
00:42:42,692 –> 00:42:45,674
arguing, this way of demanding

1350
00:42:45,722 –> 00:42:47,554
that other folks justify their

1351
00:42:47,592 –> 00:42:49,106
thoughts, justify their

1352
00:42:49,128 –> 00:42:50,546
existence, without resorting to

1353
00:42:50,568 –> 00:42:52,066
referencing my beliefs or my

1354
00:42:52,088 –> 00:42:53,586
worldview is really very

1355
00:42:53,608 –> 00:42:54,258
interesting when you have

1356
00:42:54,264 –> 00:42:57,250
competing ideologies at a 50,000

1357
00:42:57,320 –> 00:42:58,806
foot level, but it’s also really

1358
00:42:58,828 –> 00:42:59,478
interesting when you have

1359
00:42:59,484 –> 00:42:59,826
competing.

1360
00:42:59,858 –> 00:43:02,520
Opinions at a 50,000 foot level.

1361
00:43:03,130 –> 00:43:06,166
So Tom question is, have you

1362
00:43:06,188 –> 00:43:06,374
ever.

1363
00:43:06,412 –> 00:43:11,046
Tried that with your kids? I

1364
00:43:11,068 –> 00:43:12,342
think every parent has at least

1365
00:43:12,396 –> 00:43:13,000
once.

1366
00:43:14,090 –> 00:43:15,226
Well, yeah, I mean, that’s that

1367
00:43:15,248 –> 00:43:16,970
whole argument. Go do this. Why?

1368
00:43:17,040 –> 00:43:18,378
Because I said so. You know what

1369
00:43:18,384 –> 00:43:19,100
I mean?

1370
00:43:19,790 –> 00:43:21,270
It’s a little more complicated.

1371
00:43:21,430 –> 00:43:23,078
It’s more like when they’re

1372
00:43:23,094 –> 00:43:24,746
like, 15 to 17 and they go,

1373
00:43:24,768 –> 00:43:26,742
well, I want to do because of

1374
00:43:26,896 –> 00:43:27,166
you.

1375
00:43:27,188 –> 00:43:28,960
Go, okay, go ahead and try that.

1376
00:43:29,650 –> 00:43:31,374
Yeah, right.

1377
00:43:31,412 –> 00:43:32,286
And you make that face right

1378
00:43:32,308 –> 00:43:32,734
there.

1379
00:43:32,852 –> 00:43:34,174
Well, here’s the thing, though.

1380
00:43:34,292 –> 00:43:35,390
Here’s the thing with my kids,

1381
00:43:35,460 –> 00:43:37,486
right? Again, you find this

1382
00:43:37,508 –> 00:43:40,014
funny. You’ll find this one if I

1383
00:43:40,052 –> 00:43:41,426
ever said that to my kids on the

1384
00:43:41,448 –> 00:43:42,466
first shot, like, if they said,

1385
00:43:42,488 –> 00:43:43,570
dad, I’m going to do this,

1386
00:43:43,720 –> 00:43:44,978
because I.

1387
00:43:44,984 –> 00:43:46,370
Went, you go right in.

1388
00:43:46,440 –> 00:43:48,194
You go try that. They’d be like,

1389
00:43:48,392 –> 00:43:50,754
Why? My kids would come right

1390
00:43:50,792 –> 00:43:52,238
back at me and go, why are you

1391
00:43:52,264 –> 00:43:53,126
not fighting this? Because

1392
00:43:53,148 –> 00:43:54,358
there’s something am I going to

1393
00:43:54,364 –> 00:43:55,718
do something stupid? Am I going

1394
00:43:55,724 –> 00:43:57,320
to hurt myself when I do this?

1395
00:43:59,370 –> 00:44:00,706
Is there a trap door somewhere

1396
00:44:00,738 –> 00:44:01,142
back there?

1397
00:44:01,196 –> 00:44:04,918
Yeah. And maybe it’s because

1398
00:44:05,004 –> 00:44:07,974
when they were younger, I did

1399
00:44:08,012 –> 00:44:09,578
similar things like, dad, can I

1400
00:44:09,584 –> 00:44:10,826
go climb that tree? And I’d be

1401
00:44:10,848 –> 00:44:12,918
like, sure, if you want to climb

1402
00:44:12,934 –> 00:44:13,910
the tree, if you fall, you’re

1403
00:44:13,910 –> 00:44:14,906
going to hurt yourself. You

1404
00:44:14,928 –> 00:44:16,026
break an arm, break a leg. Then

1405
00:44:16,048 –> 00:44:16,846
you have the whole summer where

1406
00:44:16,868 –> 00:44:17,934
you can’t do anything else.

1407
00:44:18,052 –> 00:44:21,438
Whatever I’d give them and they

1408
00:44:21,444 –> 00:44:22,718
go, you know what? I guess I

1409
00:44:22,724 –> 00:44:24,926
don’t want to climb that tree. I

1410
00:44:24,948 –> 00:44:26,766
did that to them even with the

1411
00:44:26,788 –> 00:44:28,686
simplest of stuff, like as they

1412
00:44:28,708 –> 00:44:30,786
were younger. So maybe when they

1413
00:44:30,808 –> 00:44:33,122
got to that 15, 1617 year old

1414
00:44:33,256 –> 00:44:35,518
brain and it was just embedded

1415
00:44:35,534 –> 00:44:36,594
in them at that point to go,

1416
00:44:36,632 –> 00:44:38,114
wait, if dad is okay with this

1417
00:44:38,152 –> 00:44:39,454
right out the gate, there’s

1418
00:44:39,502 –> 00:44:41,766
probably a problem. And

1419
00:44:41,788 –> 00:44:42,998
sometimes, by the way, by the

1420
00:44:43,004 –> 00:44:45,094
way, sometimes it was not a

1421
00:44:45,132 –> 00:44:47,126
problem of I might get in

1422
00:44:47,148 –> 00:44:48,406
trouble or hurt myself or

1423
00:44:48,428 –> 00:44:50,534
whatever. Occasionally it was,

1424
00:44:50,652 –> 00:44:51,958
I’m going to make a fool out of

1425
00:44:51,964 –> 00:44:53,106
myself and Dad’s going to laugh

1426
00:44:53,138 –> 00:44:55,706
at me. So it was even simple

1427
00:44:55,888 –> 00:44:57,066
stuff like that, where I’d be

1428
00:44:57,088 –> 00:44:58,746
like, you go right ahead and do

1429
00:44:58,768 –> 00:44:59,914
that. I’ll be standing right

1430
00:44:59,952 –> 00:45:01,866
here to watch. So, yes,

1431
00:45:01,968 –> 00:45:03,806
absolutely. I’d done that with

1432
00:45:03,828 –> 00:45:05,200
my children, for sure.

1433
00:45:06,850 –> 00:45:09,246
Okay, now, have you ever done

1434
00:45:09,268 –> 00:45:09,454
that.

1435
00:45:09,492 –> 00:45:13,358
With strangers or people who are

1436
00:45:13,364 –> 00:45:13,870
not your children?

1437
00:45:13,940 –> 00:45:14,702
Those second level

1438
00:45:14,756 –> 00:45:16,980
relationships, like at work or

1439
00:45:17,590 –> 00:45:19,262
in a larger sort of leadership,

1440
00:45:19,326 –> 00:45:20,910
maybe leadership context?

1441
00:45:21,070 –> 00:45:22,034
Because I’ve done that,

1442
00:45:22,072 –> 00:45:23,246
actually, with folks that I’ve

1443
00:45:23,278 –> 00:45:24,580
led where.

1444
00:45:26,390 –> 00:45:27,326
I don’t lose.

1445
00:45:27,358 –> 00:45:28,602
Any, and this is my perspective,

1446
00:45:28,686 –> 00:45:28,838
I.

1447
00:45:28,844 –> 00:45:30,550
Don’T lose anything if you fail,

1448
00:45:32,170 –> 00:45:32,486
and.

1449
00:45:32,508 –> 00:45:34,114
If you succeed, I might gain

1450
00:45:34,162 –> 00:45:34,710
something.

1451
00:45:34,860 –> 00:45:36,630
But it’s a 50 50 shot.

1452
00:45:39,610 –> 00:45:41,606
Yeah, I agree with you. I would

1453
00:45:41,708 –> 00:45:44,658
add one caveat to that in my

1454
00:45:44,684 –> 00:45:46,154
brain. I would try to run

1455
00:45:46,192 –> 00:45:47,386
through as many scenarios as I

1456
00:45:47,408 –> 00:45:48,874
can of outcomes to make sure

1457
00:45:48,912 –> 00:45:50,460
that it didn’t hurt the company.

1458
00:45:51,790 –> 00:45:52,746
It wasn’t a matter of

1459
00:45:52,768 –> 00:45:54,026
necessarily me being right or

1460
00:45:54,048 –> 00:45:55,226
wrong or the other person being

1461
00:45:55,248 –> 00:45:56,886
right or wrong, but this debate

1462
00:45:56,918 –> 00:45:58,494
and this trial and error type

1463
00:45:58,532 –> 00:45:59,246
thing that we’re going to go

1464
00:45:59,268 –> 00:46:00,798
back and forth on. If there’s a

1465
00:46:00,804 –> 00:46:01,966
possibility that it hurt the

1466
00:46:01,988 –> 00:46:04,266
company, I probably wouldn’t

1467
00:46:04,298 –> 00:46:05,390
have allowed it to happen. But

1468
00:46:05,460 –> 00:46:06,866
if there was no risk of the

1469
00:46:06,888 –> 00:46:09,540
company losing ground, money,

1470
00:46:10,070 –> 00:46:11,186
whatever the loss would have

1471
00:46:11,208 –> 00:46:14,034
been, then, yeah, absolutely. I

1472
00:46:14,072 –> 00:46:15,486
have done that as well. I’ve

1473
00:46:15,518 –> 00:46:17,730
done it in certain circumstances

1474
00:46:18,150 –> 00:46:20,786
at work, in leadership roles

1475
00:46:20,818 –> 00:46:23,826
like that, but I wasn’t as eager

1476
00:46:23,858 –> 00:46:25,334
to do that if I felt like the

1477
00:46:25,372 –> 00:46:27,122
outcome could potentially hurt

1478
00:46:27,266 –> 00:46:29,382
the company. Yeah, the company.

1479
00:46:29,516 –> 00:46:31,398
Okay, now, here’s something that

1480
00:46:31,404 –> 00:46:32,450
I’ve struggled with often. Well,

1481
00:46:32,460 –> 00:46:33,974
not struggled with, but I’ve

1482
00:46:34,022 –> 00:46:35,286
watched other people struggle

1483
00:46:35,318 –> 00:46:38,714
with when I would tell them what

1484
00:46:38,752 –> 00:46:40,186
the thing was to do as a

1485
00:46:40,208 –> 00:46:42,266
consultant. So I’m going at a

1486
00:46:42,288 –> 00:46:42,860
company.

1487
00:46:43,390 –> 00:46:44,838
We’ll say ace company. We’ll

1488
00:46:44,854 –> 00:46:47,178
just pick actually, no, I’ll

1489
00:46:47,194 –> 00:46:48,506
pick a company from Looney

1490
00:46:48,538 –> 00:46:49,882
Tunes, acme.

1491
00:46:49,946 –> 00:46:50,670
Acme.

1492
00:46:51,170 –> 00:46:52,638
Worst company on the planet, by

1493
00:46:52,644 –> 00:46:53,582
the way. Worst company.

1494
00:46:53,636 –> 00:46:54,782
Roadrunner should stop working

1495
00:46:54,836 –> 00:46:55,982
with them and cancel his entire

1496
00:46:56,036 –> 00:47:00,618
account. Terrible company.

1497
00:47:00,804 –> 00:47:01,666
That’s why I tell my kids,

1498
00:47:01,688 –> 00:47:02,258
actually, I’m going to do a

1499
00:47:02,264 –> 00:47:03,378
whole shorts episode on the

1500
00:47:03,384 –> 00:47:04,446
leadership lessons from Looney.

1501
00:47:04,478 –> 00:47:07,090
Tunes coming up here shortly,

1502
00:47:07,430 –> 00:47:07,986
and one.

1503
00:47:08,008 –> 00:47:09,442
Of those is don’t ever order

1504
00:47:09,496 –> 00:47:10,994
anything from Acme, worst

1505
00:47:11,042 –> 00:47:11,958
company on the planet. I tell my

1506
00:47:11,964 –> 00:47:15,234
kids that all the time. Whoever

1507
00:47:15,282 –> 00:47:16,406
the sales rep is for Acme needs

1508
00:47:16,428 –> 00:47:20,818
to be fired. Or it might be the

1509
00:47:20,844 –> 00:47:21,914
CEO, actually. The sales rep

1510
00:47:21,952 –> 00:47:23,994
might be the CEO, actually.

1511
00:47:24,192 –> 00:47:26,790
They got one account, and it’s

1512
00:47:26,950 –> 00:47:28,278
well, it’s Wiley Coyote.

1513
00:47:28,374 –> 00:47:31,974
Anyway, so I’m head of the Acme

1514
00:47:32,022 –> 00:47:35,246
company, right? Or not head. I’m

1515
00:47:35,268 –> 00:47:36,474
invited in as a consultant,

1516
00:47:36,522 –> 00:47:39,774
right? And they say, well, this

1517
00:47:39,812 –> 00:47:40,894
person’s doing this, this

1518
00:47:40,932 –> 00:47:44,080
person’s doing that, and.

1519
00:47:46,130 –> 00:47:46,874
ABC.

1520
00:47:46,922 –> 00:47:48,574
Thing happened, or XYZ thing

1521
00:47:48,612 –> 00:47:51,434
happened. And I love this line.

1522
00:47:51,492 –> 00:47:52,594
There were enough people around

1523
00:47:52,632 –> 00:47:54,690
him or her usually it’s a him,

1524
00:47:54,760 –> 00:47:55,506
but there were enough people

1525
00:47:55,528 –> 00:47:57,058
around him or her to buffer the

1526
00:47:57,144 –> 00:47:57,826
results of this.

1527
00:47:57,848 –> 00:47:58,818
And so we just sort of let him

1528
00:47:58,824 –> 00:47:59,620
keep going.

1529
00:48:02,250 –> 00:48:03,670
And one of the first questions

1530
00:48:03,740 –> 00:48:05,574
that I ask is, why don’t you let

1531
00:48:05,612 –> 00:48:06,678
him or her experience the

1532
00:48:06,684 –> 00:48:08,230
consequences of their actions?

1533
00:48:10,090 –> 00:48:12,346
And the second line out of that

1534
00:48:12,368 –> 00:48:13,994
is, well, he makes sales every

1535
00:48:14,032 –> 00:48:14,326
quarter.

1536
00:48:14,358 –> 00:48:15,946
So we can’t do that. Like, he

1537
00:48:15,968 –> 00:48:19,498
hits his quota. Right.

1538
00:48:19,664 –> 00:48:24,218
And so that’s a practical

1539
00:48:24,314 –> 00:48:25,054
example for.

1540
00:48:25,092 –> 00:48:29,034
Leaders of you’ve got to engage

1541
00:48:29,082 –> 00:48:29,246
in.

1542
00:48:29,268 –> 00:48:31,150
Some consequentialist thinking,

1543
00:48:31,300 –> 00:48:32,558
right? Like, people have to be

1544
00:48:32,564 –> 00:48:34,062
able to experience the

1545
00:48:34,116 –> 00:48:35,038
consequences of their own

1546
00:48:35,044 –> 00:48:36,362
actions, particularly adults.

1547
00:48:36,506 –> 00:48:38,690
And yet we spend a lot of time

1548
00:48:38,760 –> 00:48:40,066
in our culture and I think.

1549
00:48:40,088 –> 00:48:40,882
This is, again, something

1550
00:48:40,936 –> 00:48:43,374
relatively recent, protecting.

1551
00:48:43,422 –> 00:48:45,346
People, protecting adults from

1552
00:48:45,368 –> 00:48:46,434
the consequences of their

1553
00:48:46,472 –> 00:48:52,266
decisions. And I got a bone to

1554
00:48:52,288 –> 00:48:53,306
pick with that. Like, I really

1555
00:48:53,328 –> 00:48:54,378
do. I got a bone to pick with

1556
00:48:54,384 –> 00:48:55,260
that, because.

1557
00:48:59,230 –> 00:49:00,298
I wonder if there’s something to

1558
00:49:00,304 –> 00:49:03,370
be said about the whole that is

1559
00:49:03,440 –> 00:49:06,470
a product of the PC environment.

1560
00:49:06,550 –> 00:49:10,174
Right. So you can’t do this

1561
00:49:10,212 –> 00:49:12,174
because it’s a it’s a woman or

1562
00:49:12,212 –> 00:49:13,774
because it’s a minority or

1563
00:49:13,812 –> 00:49:15,234
because it’s like we have to

1564
00:49:15,272 –> 00:49:16,418
stay away from these kinds of

1565
00:49:16,424 –> 00:49:18,114
conversations. Because I wonder

1566
00:49:18,152 –> 00:49:23,234
if part of it is because of the

1567
00:49:23,272 –> 00:49:27,406
recent push to really what’s the

1568
00:49:27,448 –> 00:49:33,574
word I’m looking for? I’m not

1569
00:49:33,612 –> 00:49:34,246
thinking of the word.

1570
00:49:34,268 –> 00:49:36,082
There’s a word operationalize

1571
00:49:36,146 –> 00:49:37,030
equality.

1572
00:49:37,610 –> 00:49:40,458
Yeah, which you can’t, by the

1573
00:49:40,464 –> 00:49:40,634
way.

1574
00:49:40,672 –> 00:49:42,554
You can’t get to from here

1575
00:49:42,752 –> 00:49:43,546
because.

1576
00:49:43,728 –> 00:49:45,802
Nobody is equal to anybody else.

1577
00:49:45,856 –> 00:49:49,418
And equity let me be real here.

1578
00:49:49,584 –> 00:49:51,562
Equity is always about the

1579
00:49:51,616 –> 00:49:52,406
outcomes.

1580
00:49:52,518 –> 00:49:53,934
It’s about the outputs, never

1581
00:49:53,972 –> 00:49:54,922
the inputs.

1582
00:49:55,066 –> 00:49:55,838
Yeah. Right.

1583
00:49:55,924 –> 00:49:57,326
Never about the inputs. When

1584
00:49:57,348 –> 00:49:58,414
you’re trying to get equity on

1585
00:49:58,452 –> 00:50:02,846
inputs, everybody knows that you

1586
00:50:02,868 –> 00:50:04,526
cannot get there from here, even

1587
00:50:04,548 –> 00:50:05,406
though we don’t want to say it

1588
00:50:05,428 –> 00:50:07,166
out loud, because there’s

1589
00:50:07,198 –> 00:50:08,434
different competencies. People

1590
00:50:08,472 –> 00:50:09,154
look for different things.

1591
00:50:09,192 –> 00:50:10,094
There’s different personalities,

1592
00:50:10,142 –> 00:50:11,406
there’s different behaviors,

1593
00:50:11,518 –> 00:50:12,706
there’s different responses to

1594
00:50:12,728 –> 00:50:14,082
consequences. There’s different

1595
00:50:14,136 –> 00:50:15,474
reactions, there’s different

1596
00:50:15,512 –> 00:50:18,580
thought processes. It is so.

1597
00:50:20,790 –> 00:50:22,374
No offering this way, no matter

1598
00:50:22,412 –> 00:50:25,254
how good Google is, even they

1599
00:50:25,292 –> 00:50:27,654
know they can’t arrange for

1600
00:50:27,692 –> 00:50:29,846
equity. You can hope, you can

1601
00:50:29,868 –> 00:50:30,438
pray, you.

1602
00:50:30,444 –> 00:50:32,298
Can have it as a goal, but on

1603
00:50:32,304 –> 00:50:33,782
the input end, you can’t.

1604
00:50:33,846 –> 00:50:36,906
But on the output end, the

1605
00:50:36,928 –> 00:50:37,238
output.

1606
00:50:37,254 –> 00:50:39,434
End, there you can you can

1607
00:50:39,472 –> 00:50:41,146
output for equity. You can put

1608
00:50:41,168 –> 00:50:43,066
in rules and regulations and you

1609
00:50:43,088 –> 00:50:45,146
can say, well, this thing can’t

1610
00:50:45,178 –> 00:50:46,446
be said or this thing can be

1611
00:50:46,468 –> 00:50:50,846
said. This number of people has

1612
00:50:50,868 –> 00:50:52,206
to be hired and this number of

1613
00:50:52,228 –> 00:50:53,694
people has to be fired in order

1614
00:50:53,732 –> 00:51:00,830
to reach some mythical balance

1615
00:51:00,910 –> 00:51:02,580
somewhere. And by the way,

1616
00:51:03,510 –> 00:51:04,434
before you all.

1617
00:51:04,472 –> 00:51:07,218
Come for me, yeah, I happen to.

1618
00:51:07,224 –> 00:51:08,674
Have brown skin but that has

1619
00:51:08,712 –> 00:51:10,002
absolutely nothing to do with

1620
00:51:10,056 –> 00:51:10,806
and don’t talk to me about

1621
00:51:10,828 –> 00:51:11,926
internalized racism or

1622
00:51:11,948 –> 00:51:13,298
internalized white supremacy.

1623
00:51:13,394 –> 00:51:14,706
Please tell your story walking

1624
00:51:14,738 –> 00:51:16,082
go listen to another podcast.

1625
00:51:16,226 –> 00:51:17,958
Please tell your story walk in.

1626
00:51:18,124 –> 00:51:19,526
I don’t want to hear it.

1627
00:51:19,708 –> 00:51:21,702
I’m a rationally thinking human

1628
00:51:21,756 –> 00:51:22,986
being, right? And if you’re a

1629
00:51:23,008 –> 00:51:24,218
rationally thinking human being,

1630
00:51:24,304 –> 00:51:25,670
there has to be consequences

1631
00:51:25,750 –> 00:51:25,994
because.

1632
00:51:26,032 –> 00:51:28,374
Equity can’t equity of outcome

1633
00:51:28,422 –> 00:51:28,794
does not.

1634
00:51:28,832 –> 00:51:31,274
Work because the inputs always

1635
00:51:31,392 –> 00:51:33,774
drive the outcome. They just do.

1636
00:51:33,972 –> 00:51:37,098
And at a certain point we seem

1637
00:51:37,114 –> 00:51:39,646
to have lost that ability to

1638
00:51:39,668 –> 00:51:41,246
view human nature through that

1639
00:51:41,268 –> 00:51:44,654
lens. And it is a tragic view

1640
00:51:44,692 –> 00:51:44,798
of.

1641
00:51:44,804 –> 00:51:45,930
Human nature, which by the way

1642
00:51:45,940 –> 00:51:47,298
does come from Augustine, by the

1643
00:51:47,304 –> 00:51:52,050
way. The original Judaic

1644
00:51:52,470 –> 00:51:54,754
converts to Christianity did not

1645
00:51:54,792 –> 00:51:56,194
have a tragic view of human

1646
00:51:56,232 –> 00:51:57,386
nature. They had a very Jewish

1647
00:51:57,438 –> 00:51:59,000
view of human nature, which is

1648
00:51:59,610 –> 00:52:00,918
different. I’ll just frame it

1649
00:52:00,924 –> 00:52:05,074
that way right now. But Paul,

1650
00:52:05,122 –> 00:52:07,254
first the apostle Paul and then

1651
00:52:07,292 –> 00:52:09,494
Augustine later on really came

1652
00:52:09,532 –> 00:52:10,854
on and really put that whole

1653
00:52:10,892 –> 00:52:12,566
like original sin, tragic view

1654
00:52:12,588 –> 00:52:14,114
of human nature thing onto

1655
00:52:14,162 –> 00:52:15,330
Christianity which lasts here

1656
00:52:15,340 –> 00:52:16,886
for 2000 years. And now we’re

1657
00:52:16,918 –> 00:52:18,058
here where we don’t have a

1658
00:52:18,064 –> 00:52:19,530
tragic view of human nature.

1659
00:52:20,350 –> 00:52:23,674
And we’re going to do the equity

1660
00:52:23,722 –> 00:52:26,394
dance, which isn’t necessarily

1661
00:52:26,442 –> 00:52:27,280
going to work.

1662
00:52:33,860 –> 00:52:35,888
That’s an example, by the way,

1663
00:52:36,054 –> 00:52:37,810
if you’ve lasted through that

1664
00:52:38,600 –> 00:52:41,220
example, by the way, of

1665
00:52:41,290 –> 00:52:43,124
demanding that a worldview live.

1666
00:52:43,162 –> 00:52:50,552
Up to its own structure. Because

1667
00:52:50,606 –> 00:52:53,768
if we organize for a particular.

1668
00:52:53,854 –> 00:52:55,416
Outcome, there’s going to be

1669
00:52:55,438 –> 00:52:58,376
consequences from that. Are we

1670
00:52:58,398 –> 00:52:59,416
willing to accept those

1671
00:52:59,438 –> 00:53:00,360
consequences?

1672
00:53:01,020 –> 00:53:04,956
I don’t know that we are. And I

1673
00:53:04,978 –> 00:53:05,724
always go back to the.

1674
00:53:05,762 –> 00:53:08,236
Example of the plumber right in

1675
00:53:08,258 –> 00:53:10,908
my house. I recently had to get

1676
00:53:10,914 –> 00:53:11,288
some plumbing.

1677
00:53:11,304 –> 00:53:12,510
Done around my house.

1678
00:53:16,640 –> 00:53:18,428
Honestly. I mean, I live in

1679
00:53:18,434 –> 00:53:19,456
Texas. I don’t need to go into

1680
00:53:19,478 –> 00:53:20,496
where I live just like Tom does

1681
00:53:20,518 –> 00:53:21,424
need to go into where he lives.

1682
00:53:21,462 –> 00:53:23,600
But I live in Texas and it was,

1683
00:53:23,670 –> 00:53:25,788
you know, it was four gap.

1684
00:53:25,804 –> 00:53:27,476
Tooth Caucasian fellows who

1685
00:53:27,498 –> 00:53:31,972
showed up and fixed my pipes. I

1686
00:53:32,026 –> 00:53:33,892
wouldn’t have cared if they had.

1687
00:53:33,946 –> 00:53:35,044
Shown up in any other

1688
00:53:35,082 –> 00:53:37,648
conflagration or pick. I don’t

1689
00:53:37,664 –> 00:53:41,604
care. Fix the pipe, right? I

1690
00:53:41,642 –> 00:53:43,016
want the pipe fixed. That’s the

1691
00:53:43,038 –> 00:53:44,250
outcome that I want.

1692
00:53:44,620 –> 00:53:46,088
If a machine can come along and

1693
00:53:46,094 –> 00:53:47,610
do it, fine, I’ll take that too.

1694
00:53:49,580 –> 00:53:50,616
The outcome that I want is that

1695
00:53:50,638 –> 00:53:52,536
the pipe is fixed and that raw

1696
00:53:52,568 –> 00:53:53,868
sewage stops flowing into my

1697
00:53:53,874 –> 00:53:54,700
front lawn.

1698
00:53:57,040 –> 00:53:58,940
Every time I flush the toilet.

1699
00:54:00,800 –> 00:54:02,056
It was always a terrible

1700
00:54:02,088 –> 00:54:02,428
situation.

1701
00:54:02,514 –> 00:54:03,950
It’s a terrible situation.

1702
00:54:04,720 –> 00:54:06,544
And by the way, it got there.

1703
00:54:06,582 –> 00:54:08,784
Because of the incompetency of

1704
00:54:08,822 –> 00:54:09,516
another agency.

1705
00:54:09,548 –> 00:54:10,688
Which shall remain nameless on

1706
00:54:10,694 –> 00:54:11,756
this podcast.

1707
00:54:11,948 –> 00:54:14,784
Damaging the pipe and not

1708
00:54:14,822 –> 00:54:16,624
repairing it because of their

1709
00:54:16,662 –> 00:54:17,244
incompetency.

1710
00:54:17,292 –> 00:54:18,128
And then I found out from the

1711
00:54:18,134 –> 00:54:19,164
plumber guys that apparently

1712
00:54:19,212 –> 00:54:20,228
this happens all the time with

1713
00:54:20,234 –> 00:54:21,236
that particular agency, that

1714
00:54:21,258 –> 00:54:22,804
particular organization, and

1715
00:54:22,842 –> 00:54:23,924
they’re running around all over

1716
00:54:23,962 –> 00:54:25,604
town fixing the problems that

1717
00:54:25,642 –> 00:54:27,124
these incompetent folks have

1718
00:54:27,162 –> 00:54:28,500
created all over town.

1719
00:54:29,160 –> 00:54:30,360
And it’s a big company.

1720
00:54:30,430 –> 00:54:31,336
And if I said the name of.

1721
00:54:31,358 –> 00:54:34,424
It, you know, I can only

1722
00:54:34,462 –> 00:54:41,890
imagine. Back to the book

1723
00:54:46,660 –> 00:54:47,410
because.

1724
00:54:50,420 –> 00:54:51,852
Augustine is going to argue

1725
00:54:51,916 –> 00:54:53,296
against something that will.

1726
00:54:53,318 –> 00:54:55,250
Be very familiar talk about

1727
00:54:55,620 –> 00:54:56,256
living in.

1728
00:54:56,278 –> 00:54:57,936
Our own time or referencing our

1729
00:54:57,958 –> 00:54:59,056
own time, something that’s very

1730
00:54:59,078 –> 00:55:00,864
familiar to us in in our own

1731
00:55:00,902 –> 00:55:03,424
time. So we’re gonna skip ahead

1732
00:55:03,462 –> 00:55:04,228
a little bit. We’re gonna go to

1733
00:55:04,234 –> 00:55:06,132
book three, chapter ten of

1734
00:55:06,186 –> 00:55:08,070
Augustine’s City of God.

1735
00:55:09,800 –> 00:55:11,776
Are our opponents going to reply

1736
00:55:11,808 –> 00:55:11,956
that.

1737
00:55:11,978 –> 00:55:13,384
The Roman empire could not have

1738
00:55:13,422 –> 00:55:15,416
increased so far and so wide and

1739
00:55:15,438 –> 00:55:16,776
the Roman glory could not have

1740
00:55:16,798 –> 00:55:18,692
spread except by continual wars

1741
00:55:18,756 –> 00:55:20,410
followed one upon another?

1742
00:55:21,100 –> 00:55:23,000
What a satisfying explanation.

1743
00:55:23,420 –> 00:55:25,076
Why must an empire be deprived

1744
00:55:25,108 –> 00:55:25,476
of peace?

1745
00:55:25,508 –> 00:55:27,576
In order that it may be great in

1746
00:55:27,598 –> 00:55:28,876
regard to men’s bodies, it is.

1747
00:55:28,898 –> 00:55:30,216
Surely better to be of moderate

1748
00:55:30,248 –> 00:55:30,492
size.

1749
00:55:30,546 –> 00:55:33,644
And to be healthy than to reach.

1750
00:55:33,682 –> 00:55:35,016
The immense stature of a giant

1751
00:55:35,048 –> 00:55:36,136
at the cost of unending

1752
00:55:36,168 –> 00:55:38,236
disorders. Not to rest when that

1753
00:55:38,258 –> 00:55:39,528
stature is reached, but to be

1754
00:55:39,554 –> 00:55:40,876
troubled with greater disorders

1755
00:55:40,908 –> 00:55:42,448
with the increasing size of the

1756
00:55:42,454 –> 00:55:43,200
limbs.

1757
00:55:44,020 –> 00:55:45,436
Would any evil have resulted?

1758
00:55:45,468 –> 00:55:46,464
Would not, in fact, the result

1759
00:55:46,502 –> 00:55:47,936
have been wholly good if that

1760
00:55:47,958 –> 00:55:50,464
first era had persisted? Here

1761
00:55:50,502 –> 00:55:52,272
are Salas’s brief description of

1762
00:55:52,326 –> 00:55:54,276
those times. At the beginning of

1763
00:55:54,298 –> 00:55:55,428
history, the name of kings was

1764
00:55:55,434 –> 00:55:56,676
given to the first wielders of

1765
00:55:56,698 –> 00:55:58,148
power. Those kings differed in

1766
00:55:58,154 –> 00:55:59,456
their inclinations some exercise

1767
00:55:59,488 –> 00:56:00,484
their mental powers, others

1768
00:56:00,522 –> 00:56:02,196
their physical abilities. At

1769
00:56:02,218 –> 00:56:03,808
that time, men’s life was lived

1770
00:56:03,824 –> 00:56:05,256
without greed and each man was

1771
00:56:05,278 –> 00:56:05,512
content.

1772
00:56:05,566 –> 00:56:06,730
With what he had.

1773
00:56:07,740 –> 00:56:09,448
Was it necessary that for the

1774
00:56:09,454 –> 00:56:11,336
angrandizement of empire we

1775
00:56:11,358 –> 00:56:12,756
should have the process deployed

1776
00:56:12,788 –> 00:56:14,836
by Virgil when he says, by slow

1777
00:56:14,868 –> 00:56:16,748
degrees his age succeeded? Age

1778
00:56:16,834 –> 00:56:18,652
life lost its beauty and its.

1779
00:56:18,706 –> 00:56:22,744
Worth declined as wars, fierce

1780
00:56:22,792 –> 00:56:23,356
madness and.

1781
00:56:23,378 –> 00:56:24,936
Lust for gain possessed men’s

1782
00:56:24,968 –> 00:56:28,716
hearts. Now, obviously, the

1783
00:56:28,738 –> 00:56:30,920
Romans had a just excuse for

1784
00:56:30,930 –> 00:56:32,016
undertaking and carrying on

1785
00:56:32,038 –> 00:56:33,036
these great wars.

1786
00:56:33,148 –> 00:56:34,336
When they were subject to

1787
00:56:34,358 –> 00:56:35,068
unprovoked attacks.

1788
00:56:35,084 –> 00:56:35,936
By their enemies, they were

1789
00:56:35,958 –> 00:56:37,456
forced to resist not by lust for

1790
00:56:37,478 –> 00:56:39,328
glory in men’s eyes but by the

1791
00:56:39,334 –> 00:56:40,496
necessity to defend their life

1792
00:56:40,518 –> 00:56:42,512
and liberty. We grant that for,

1793
00:56:42,566 –> 00:56:44,596
as Salas says, as soon as their

1794
00:56:44,618 –> 00:56:45,796
power advanced, thanks to their

1795
00:56:45,818 –> 00:56:47,428
laws, their moral standards and

1796
00:56:47,434 –> 00:56:48,800
the increase of their territory,

1797
00:56:48,880 –> 00:56:49,908
and they were observed to be

1798
00:56:49,914 –> 00:56:50,836
very flourishing and very

1799
00:56:50,858 –> 00:56:52,096
powerful then, as generally

1800
00:56:52,128 –> 00:56:52,980
happens in human history,

1801
00:56:53,050 –> 00:56:55,060
prosperity gave rise to envy.

1802
00:56:55,480 –> 00:56:57,104
Neighboring kings and people

1803
00:56:57,242 –> 00:56:58,696
therefore, made trial of them at

1804
00:56:58,718 –> 00:57:00,184
war. Only a few of their friends

1805
00:57:00,222 –> 00:57:01,144
came to their help. The rest,

1806
00:57:01,182 –> 00:57:02,376
paralyzed with fear, kept well

1807
00:57:02,398 –> 00:57:03,092
out of danger.

1808
00:57:03,156 –> 00:57:04,888
But the Romans, alert both in

1809
00:57:04,894 –> 00:57:06,024
peace and war, acted with

1810
00:57:06,062 –> 00:57:07,016
energy, made their.

1811
00:57:07,038 –> 00:57:08,048
Preparations, gave mutual

1812
00:57:08,084 –> 00:57:09,276
encouragement, advanced to meet

1813
00:57:09,298 –> 00:57:10,504
the enemy, and with their arms

1814
00:57:10,552 –> 00:57:11,516
defended their liberty, their

1815
00:57:11,538 –> 00:57:12,728
country, their parents.

1816
00:57:12,824 –> 00:57:14,396
Then when they had by their

1817
00:57:14,418 –> 00:57:14,744
courage.

1818
00:57:14,792 –> 00:57:15,916
Dispersed those perils, they

1819
00:57:15,938 –> 00:57:16,844
brought help to their friends

1820
00:57:16,882 –> 00:57:18,076
and won friendship rather than

1821
00:57:18,098 –> 00:57:19,736
by rendering rather by rendering

1822
00:57:19,768 –> 00:57:22,210
services than by receiving them.

1823
00:57:23,620 –> 00:57:25,104
That Rome grew great by such

1824
00:57:25,142 –> 00:57:26,048
conduct was nothing to be

1825
00:57:26,054 –> 00:57:27,088
ashamed of. But what was the

1826
00:57:27,094 –> 00:57:28,256
cause of that long period of

1827
00:57:28,278 –> 00:57:30,364
peace in Numa’s reign? Was Rome

1828
00:57:30,412 –> 00:57:31,596
being assailed by hostile

1829
00:57:31,628 –> 00:57:32,876
attacks on her malignant enemies

1830
00:57:32,908 –> 00:57:34,208
when Numa came to the throne?

1831
00:57:34,304 –> 00:57:35,492
Or was nothing of this kind

1832
00:57:35,546 –> 00:57:35,860
happening.

1833
00:57:35,930 –> 00:57:37,268
So that a long continuance of

1834
00:57:37,274 –> 00:57:39,444
peace was possible? If Rome was

1835
00:57:39,482 –> 00:57:40,756
at the time being harassed by

1836
00:57:40,778 –> 00:57:41,828
invasions and did not rush to

1837
00:57:41,834 –> 00:57:42,976
oppose them by force of arms,

1838
00:57:43,008 –> 00:57:44,096
the policy by which her foes

1839
00:57:44,128 –> 00:57:45,656
were pacified without being

1840
00:57:45,678 –> 00:57:47,156
defeated in battle or overawed

1841
00:57:47,188 –> 00:57:48,904
by any warlike initiative should

1842
00:57:48,942 –> 00:57:50,052
have been Rome’s perpetual

1843
00:57:50,116 –> 00:57:50,680
policy.

1844
00:57:50,830 –> 00:57:52,068
And then she would have reigned

1845
00:57:52,084 –> 00:57:52,168
in.

1846
00:57:52,174 –> 00:57:53,448
Unbroken peace, and the gates of

1847
00:57:53,454 –> 00:57:54,132
Janus.

1848
00:57:54,276 –> 00:57:57,144
Would have remained closed. If

1849
00:57:57,182 –> 00:57:58,216
that was not possible for her.

1850
00:57:58,238 –> 00:57:59,464
It means that Rome enjoyed peace

1851
00:57:59,512 –> 00:58:01,256
not for so long as her god’s

1852
00:58:01,288 –> 00:58:02,428
wish, but for so long as the

1853
00:58:02,434 –> 00:58:03,436
neighboring people’s wish, who

1854
00:58:03,458 –> 00:58:04,764
surrounded her on all sides and

1855
00:58:04,802 –> 00:58:06,556
granted peace to Rome when they

1856
00:58:06,578 –> 00:58:07,564
did not provoke her by

1857
00:58:07,602 –> 00:58:08,344
attacking.

1858
00:58:08,472 –> 00:58:09,996
Unless, perhaps, such gods will

1859
00:58:10,018 –> 00:58:10,236
have the.

1860
00:58:10,258 –> 00:58:12,064
Effuntry to offer for sale to

1861
00:58:12,102 –> 00:58:13,344
men something that depends on

1862
00:58:13,382 –> 00:58:15,200
other men’s choice or refusal.

1863
00:58:15,780 –> 00:58:17,116
The concern of their natural

1864
00:58:17,148 –> 00:58:19,248
malignity is indeed to work on

1865
00:58:19,254 –> 00:58:20,768
the evil dispositions of men as

1866
00:58:20,774 –> 00:58:22,276
far as scope is given them by

1867
00:58:22,298 –> 00:58:24,164
means of fair, of fear or of

1868
00:58:24,202 –> 00:58:26,516
encouragement. But if they could

1869
00:58:26,538 –> 00:58:28,116
always achieve their purpose and

1870
00:58:28,138 –> 00:58:29,764
were never thwarted by a more

1871
00:58:29,802 –> 00:58:30,932
secret and superior power

1872
00:58:30,986 –> 00:58:32,096
working against their designs,

1873
00:58:32,128 –> 00:58:33,444
then peace and victory and war

1874
00:58:33,482 –> 00:58:34,424
would always be under their

1875
00:58:34,462 –> 00:58:35,096
control.

1876
00:58:35,278 –> 00:58:36,568
Though the immediate cause of

1877
00:58:36,574 –> 00:58:37,112
them almost.

1878
00:58:37,166 –> 00:58:38,404
Always rests with the passions

1879
00:58:38,452 –> 00:58:40,376
of human beings. Yet these

1880
00:58:40,398 –> 00:58:41,592
things generally happen against

1881
00:58:41,646 –> 00:58:41,768
the.

1882
00:58:41,774 –> 00:58:43,808
Will of gods, as is witnessed

1883
00:58:43,844 –> 00:58:43,996
not.

1884
00:58:44,018 –> 00:58:45,404
Only by legends which are full

1885
00:58:45,442 –> 00:58:47,116
of lies and give scarcely any

1886
00:58:47,138 –> 00:58:47,676
information or.

1887
00:58:47,698 –> 00:58:49,564
Hint of the truth, but by the

1888
00:58:49,602 –> 00:58:58,448
actual history of Rome. What do

1889
00:58:58,454 –> 00:58:59,248
we want?

1890
00:58:59,414 –> 00:59:01,650
More? When do we want it?

1891
00:59:06,050 –> 00:59:08,378
That was the cry of the pagans.

1892
00:59:08,394 –> 00:59:09,934
In the ancient Roman Empire. And

1893
00:59:09,972 –> 00:59:11,714
it is the cry all the way down

1894
00:59:11,752 –> 00:59:13,940
to the west to now.

1895
00:59:16,230 –> 00:59:17,906
Augustine was critiquing the

1896
00:59:17,928 –> 00:59:20,034
past in order to arrange the

1897
00:59:20,072 –> 00:59:22,290
future as we do now.

1898
00:59:22,360 –> 00:59:24,806
He was judging the past of the

1899
00:59:24,828 –> 00:59:27,254
Roman Empire going back to its

1900
00:59:27,292 –> 00:59:30,006
original founding in the BCS all

1901
00:59:30,028 –> 00:59:31,574
the way up to his time in the

1902
00:59:31,612 –> 00:59:35,190
Ads. And he was judging the

1903
00:59:35,340 –> 00:59:37,446
pagans for believing in gods

1904
00:59:37,478 –> 00:59:40,346
that would allow bloodletting in

1905
00:59:40,368 –> 00:59:43,322
peace. That would be just as

1906
00:59:43,376 –> 00:59:44,986
justified as bloodletting in

1907
00:59:45,008 –> 00:59:45,580
war.

1908
00:59:46,190 –> 00:59:47,498
Augustine was opposed to the

1909
00:59:47,504 –> 00:59:48,598
bloodletting period.

1910
00:59:48,694 –> 00:59:50,426
He’s very Bernie Sanders like in

1911
00:59:50,448 –> 00:59:52,046
that little piece there. I could

1912
00:59:52,068 –> 00:59:53,566
even see Bernie saying pretty

1913
00:59:53,588 –> 00:59:55,280
much the exact same things

1914
00:59:55,730 –> 00:59:57,374
except he would replace it with

1915
00:59:57,412 –> 00:59:58,398
endless wars and.

1916
00:59:58,404 –> 00:59:59,726
He would replace references to

1917
00:59:59,748 –> 01:00:01,410
Rome, to America.

1918
01:00:04,640 –> 01:00:06,060
Augustine didn’t understand

1919
01:00:06,130 –> 01:00:07,116
something, though, that C. S.

1920
01:00:07,138 –> 01:00:10,508
Lewis, a Christian writer much,

1921
01:00:10,594 –> 01:00:13,996
much later would eventually say,

1922
01:00:14,098 –> 01:00:15,624
and we cover this in Abolition

1923
01:00:15,672 –> 01:00:19,116
of man recently, and I quote

1924
01:00:19,148 –> 01:00:20,368
directly from C. S. Lewis, he

1925
01:00:20,374 –> 01:00:21,696
says in reality of course, if

1926
01:00:21,718 –> 01:00:24,064
any one age really attains by

1927
01:00:24,102 –> 01:00:25,324
eugenics and scientific

1928
01:00:25,372 –> 01:00:26,768
education which we both have in

1929
01:00:26,774 –> 01:00:28,864
our time and Augustine did not

1930
01:00:28,902 –> 01:00:30,628
in his by eugenics and

1931
01:00:30,634 –> 01:00:32,052
scientific education the power

1932
01:00:32,106 –> 01:00:33,716
to make its descendants what.

1933
01:00:33,738 –> 01:00:35,764
It pleases all men who live

1934
01:00:35,802 –> 01:00:36,052
after.

1935
01:00:36,106 –> 01:00:37,572
It are the patients of that

1936
01:00:37,626 –> 01:00:38,230
power.

1937
01:00:39,320 –> 01:00:41,384
We are the patients of the power

1938
01:00:41,582 –> 01:00:43,848
that was wielded by the people

1939
01:00:43,934 –> 01:00:48,024
before us and we are also the

1940
01:00:48,062 –> 01:00:48,404
patience.

1941
01:00:48,452 –> 01:00:49,784
Of the tradition that was

1942
01:00:49,822 –> 01:00:52,084
wielded before us. And we rub

1943
01:00:52,132 –> 01:00:53,196
against that tradition and.

1944
01:00:53,218 –> 01:00:55,324
We reject it and we judge it.

1945
01:00:55,522 –> 01:00:57,096
Not, of course, understanding

1946
01:00:57,128 –> 01:00:58,984
that we will be judged by folks

1947
01:00:59,032 –> 01:01:00,760
in the future and found wanting

1948
01:01:00,840 –> 01:01:04,990
as well. The thing that

1949
01:01:05,360 –> 01:01:07,404
collapses us as human beings is

1950
01:01:07,442 –> 01:01:08,030
time.

1951
01:01:08,400 –> 01:01:10,744
So Augustine lived in his time

1952
01:01:10,802 –> 01:01:12,464
and he was done. And this

1953
01:01:12,502 –> 01:01:13,488
references back by the way.

1954
01:01:13,494 –> 01:01:14,736
To Tom’s initial example of

1955
01:01:14,758 –> 01:01:16,060
being in the room with no clock.

1956
01:01:16,140 –> 01:01:17,388
The thing that and I glad, I’m

1957
01:01:17,404 –> 01:01:18,292
glad you brought that example

1958
01:01:18,346 –> 01:01:19,428
because this is exactly where I

1959
01:01:19,434 –> 01:01:23,044
was going. The room with no

1960
01:01:23,082 –> 01:01:27,284
clock is still bound by time. We

1961
01:01:27,322 –> 01:01:30,084
are bound by time. I can

1962
01:01:30,122 –> 01:01:31,704
remember a time when I did not

1963
01:01:31,742 –> 01:01:35,464
have gray hairs in my beard. I

1964
01:01:35,502 –> 01:01:37,290
can remember a time when.

1965
01:01:39,020 –> 01:01:39,384
Sir.

1966
01:01:39,422 –> 01:01:40,536
Tom can remember a time when he

1967
01:01:40,558 –> 01:01:42,104
did not have gray hairs in his

1968
01:01:42,142 –> 01:01:44,356
beard. When I look in the mirror

1969
01:01:44,388 –> 01:01:45,980
I still see a 25 year old.

1970
01:01:46,050 –> 01:01:47,196
But when other people look at me

1971
01:01:47,218 –> 01:01:50,460
they don’t see that the body

1972
01:01:50,530 –> 01:01:51,340
betrays us.

1973
01:01:51,410 –> 01:01:51,884
Right?

1974
01:01:52,002 –> 01:01:54,732
Time continues to go on and time

1975
01:01:54,786 –> 01:01:58,796
defeats us. But we are trapped

1976
01:01:58,828 –> 01:01:59,472
in this thing.

1977
01:01:59,526 –> 01:02:01,232
Right? We have to negotiate with

1978
01:02:01,286 –> 01:02:01,890
time.

1979
01:02:03,860 –> 01:02:05,772
And wars can seem to be endless.

1980
01:02:05,836 –> 01:02:07,052
I mean the ones that Augustine

1981
01:02:07,116 –> 01:02:10,916
talks about in book three of the

1982
01:02:10,938 –> 01:02:13,124
City of God he relays out almost

1983
01:02:13,162 –> 01:02:14,644
the entire history of the

1984
01:02:14,682 –> 01:02:17,984
second, first and second Punic

1985
01:02:18,032 –> 01:02:20,404
Wars. The civil wars that

1986
01:02:20,442 –> 01:02:22,660
occurred in Rome, the social

1987
01:02:22,730 –> 01:02:24,056
wars by the way, the War of

1988
01:02:24,078 –> 01:02:25,688
Spartacus, the Gladiator War. He

1989
01:02:25,694 –> 01:02:27,624
talks extensively about that and

1990
01:02:27,662 –> 01:02:29,064
about the degradations that were

1991
01:02:29,102 –> 01:02:31,336
committed during that time. And

1992
01:02:31,358 –> 01:02:32,296
this was something that for him

1993
01:02:32,318 –> 01:02:37,016
was recent history. He wrote

1994
01:02:37,048 –> 01:02:38,316
City of God, I believe it was in

1995
01:02:38,338 –> 01:02:40,424
three something in the fourth

1996
01:02:40,472 –> 01:02:42,684
century. And so this was like

1997
01:02:42,802 –> 01:02:44,772
literally right on his doorstep.

1998
01:02:44,936 –> 01:02:46,656
It was as if we would be.

1999
01:02:46,678 –> 01:02:48,400
Writing about American history

2000
01:02:48,550 –> 01:02:50,770
for people 1000 years from now.

2001
01:02:54,740 –> 01:02:56,256
Which leads to the question how

2002
01:02:56,278 –> 01:02:56,416
can.

2003
01:02:56,438 –> 01:02:58,210
Leaders negotiate with time?

2004
01:02:59,860 –> 01:03:01,004
How do we negotiate?

2005
01:03:01,052 –> 01:03:02,820
Yeah, I know this is a big one.

2006
01:03:02,970 –> 01:03:03,968
Not like we haven’t been hitting

2007
01:03:03,984 –> 01:03:05,844
on big ones all this entire time

2008
01:03:05,882 –> 01:03:07,556
but this is a big one. How do

2009
01:03:07,578 –> 01:03:08,996
leaders negotiate with time?

2010
01:03:09,098 –> 01:03:10,264
Because it’s going to chew up.

2011
01:03:10,302 –> 01:03:11,530
Everybody at the end.

2012
01:03:11,900 –> 01:03:14,216
I think it’s funny that you say

2013
01:03:14,318 –> 01:03:16,970
as you were talking, not to be

2014
01:03:17,500 –> 01:03:27,676
argumentative, it’s hard to

2015
01:03:27,698 –> 01:03:28,844
explain. So when you were saying

2016
01:03:28,882 –> 01:03:30,110
when you’re talking about

2017
01:03:31,040 –> 01:03:33,644
physical gifts, like, or like,

2018
01:03:33,682 –> 01:03:34,988
you know what you look like when

2019
01:03:34,994 –> 01:03:35,756
you look in the mirror, you see

2020
01:03:35,778 –> 01:03:37,068
a 25 year old. I look in the

2021
01:03:37,074 –> 01:03:38,976
mirror. I don’t honestly, I look

2022
01:03:38,998 –> 01:03:40,832
in the mirror and I am very

2023
01:03:40,886 –> 01:03:42,864
realistic on my view of myself.

2024
01:03:42,982 –> 01:03:44,752
The difference. So I look at

2025
01:03:44,806 –> 01:03:45,964
again, let’s just take my yard

2026
01:03:46,012 –> 01:03:47,696
work, for example. When I was

2027
01:03:47,718 –> 01:03:49,856
25, it was brute force, right? I

2028
01:03:49,878 –> 01:03:51,488
was 25, I had all the energy in

2029
01:03:51,494 –> 01:03:52,668
the world. I was much stronger

2030
01:03:52,684 –> 01:03:53,996
than I am now. I could just blow

2031
01:03:54,028 –> 01:03:54,976
through a bunch of things and

2032
01:03:54,998 –> 01:03:56,208
call it a day and then go out

2033
01:03:56,214 –> 01:03:57,296
and party with my friends on a

2034
01:03:57,318 –> 01:03:58,640
Friday night. It didn’t matter.

2035
01:03:58,790 –> 01:04:00,516
Whereas now I look at my yard

2036
01:04:00,548 –> 01:04:01,876
work more strategically.

2037
01:04:01,988 –> 01:04:02,904
Can I get this done?

2038
01:04:02,942 –> 01:04:05,384
Versus this is my time better

2039
01:04:05,422 –> 01:04:06,808
served doing this versus that?

2040
01:04:06,894 –> 01:04:08,264
And I don’t think it’s all that

2041
01:04:08,302 –> 01:04:09,832
different in the work

2042
01:04:09,886 –> 01:04:11,384
environment, right? So again,

2043
01:04:11,422 –> 01:04:13,576
when I was 25, I just threw more

2044
01:04:13,598 –> 01:04:15,880
hours at it. I would work longer

2045
01:04:15,950 –> 01:04:17,644
days. I would work more because

2046
01:04:17,682 –> 01:04:19,324
I didn’t know any better. As my

2047
01:04:19,362 –> 01:04:21,164
knowledge got better and I

2048
01:04:21,202 –> 01:04:22,156
figured out that there was

2049
01:04:22,178 –> 01:04:23,884
better ways to do things, I

2050
01:04:23,922 –> 01:04:27,292
didn’t have the strength to work

2051
01:04:27,346 –> 01:04:28,876
longer hours. Like right now, I

2052
01:04:28,898 –> 01:04:30,972
can’t work a 1415 hours day,

2053
01:04:31,026 –> 01:04:32,208
three, four or five days in a

2054
01:04:32,214 –> 01:04:33,776
row like I could when I was 25.

2055
01:04:33,878 –> 01:04:35,136
Now I look at it and go, how do

2056
01:04:35,158 –> 01:04:37,072
I make that 14 hours day six?

2057
01:04:37,206 –> 01:04:39,584
Because I’m much better off

2058
01:04:39,702 –> 01:04:41,136
mentally than I was when I was

2059
01:04:41,158 –> 01:04:43,540
25. I think part of the problem

2060
01:04:43,610 –> 01:04:45,044
we have is kind of to your

2061
01:04:45,082 –> 01:04:47,124
point. Do we have leaders that

2062
01:04:47,162 –> 01:04:49,332
look in the mirror and see a 25

2063
01:04:49,386 –> 01:04:51,184
year old or do we have leaders

2064
01:04:51,232 –> 01:04:52,276
that look in the mirror and are

2065
01:04:52,298 –> 01:04:53,296
realistic with what they’re

2066
01:04:53,328 –> 01:04:57,256
looking at? Because I do think

2067
01:04:57,278 –> 01:04:58,984
there are we do have some

2068
01:04:59,022 –> 01:05:00,196
leaders that look in the mirror

2069
01:05:00,228 –> 01:05:01,384
and they know who they are and

2070
01:05:01,422 –> 01:05:02,356
where they are in their stages

2071
01:05:02,388 –> 01:05:03,864
in their life. And they go back

2072
01:05:03,902 –> 01:05:04,888
and they go into work and

2073
01:05:04,894 –> 01:05:05,708
they’re going to say, I’m going

2074
01:05:05,714 –> 01:05:08,350
to approach this from the whole

2075
01:05:08,800 –> 01:05:10,556
work smarter, not harder kind of

2076
01:05:10,578 –> 01:05:13,004
philosophy. Now, if anybody has

2077
01:05:13,042 –> 01:05:14,364
ever known me in the past and is

2078
01:05:14,402 –> 01:05:15,728
watching this, they’re going to

2079
01:05:15,734 –> 01:05:18,236
know that I’m just full of crap

2080
01:05:18,268 –> 01:05:20,524
right now. Because my philosophy

2081
01:05:20,572 –> 01:05:23,664
my entire life is that I have

2082
01:05:23,702 –> 01:05:25,596
always hated, with the passion

2083
01:05:25,628 –> 01:05:28,112
of 1000 sons, that statement of

2084
01:05:28,166 –> 01:05:29,500
work harder, not smarter,

2085
01:05:29,580 –> 01:05:31,216
because I think we should be

2086
01:05:31,238 –> 01:05:34,436
working harder and smarter. I

2087
01:05:34,458 –> 01:05:35,904
don’t need to go do physical

2088
01:05:35,952 –> 01:05:37,476
labor 10 hours a day, but that

2089
01:05:37,498 –> 01:05:38,756
doesn’t mean that I can’t use my

2090
01:05:38,778 –> 01:05:40,688
brain for 10 hours a day. I’m

2091
01:05:40,704 –> 01:05:41,972
going to continue to work hard

2092
01:05:42,026 –> 01:05:43,648
at getting myself better. I’m

2093
01:05:43,664 –> 01:05:45,156
going to work hard at educating

2094
01:05:45,188 –> 01:05:46,504
myself. I’m going to work hard

2095
01:05:46,542 –> 01:05:47,832
at getting better at certain

2096
01:05:47,886 –> 01:05:49,624
things, but I’m also going to be

2097
01:05:49,662 –> 01:05:51,528
smart about how I do it. Right?

2098
01:05:51,614 –> 01:05:53,390
So again, I go back to.

2099
01:05:55,440 –> 01:05:55,804
I.

2100
01:05:55,842 –> 01:05:57,116
Don’T think this should be a

2101
01:05:57,138 –> 01:06:01,452
debate on how do we get more

2102
01:06:01,506 –> 01:06:03,228
time, or it’s really how do we

2103
01:06:03,234 –> 01:06:04,844
get more out of time. It’s not

2104
01:06:04,882 –> 01:06:07,916
how do we gain that’s.

2105
01:06:07,948 –> 01:06:09,650
The negotiation, though.

2106
01:06:12,100 –> 01:06:12,736
I got to bring.

2107
01:06:12,758 –> 01:06:14,064
Up jiu jitsu at least once every

2108
01:06:14,102 –> 01:06:17,848
podcast when I do Jiu jitsu,

2109
01:06:17,964 –> 01:06:18,244
and.

2110
01:06:18,282 –> 01:06:22,820
I am, I mean, I’m eventually

2111
01:06:23,160 –> 01:06:27,472
going to cleave my courage.

2112
01:06:27,616 –> 01:06:29,124
Actually not cleave, I’m going

2113
01:06:29,162 –> 01:06:33,316
to nail my courage to a post and

2114
01:06:33,498 –> 01:06:34,428
I’m going to go to a tournament

2115
01:06:34,464 –> 01:06:35,368
competition, and it’s going to

2116
01:06:35,374 –> 01:06:36,088
be a mess.

2117
01:06:36,254 –> 01:06:37,176
I already know it’s going to be

2118
01:06:37,198 –> 01:06:40,024
a mess. However you talk about

2119
01:06:40,062 –> 01:06:41,556
working smarter, not harder, I’m

2120
01:06:41,588 –> 01:06:43,108
going to be tactical, right? I’m

2121
01:06:43,124 –> 01:06:44,980
going to build a plan. I’m going

2122
01:06:44,990 –> 01:06:45,644
to work on that plan.

2123
01:06:45,682 –> 01:06:47,356
With my jiu jitsu coach. And one

2124
01:06:47,378 –> 01:06:48,556
of the parts of that plan will

2125
01:06:48,578 –> 01:06:52,684
be live rolling sparring with

2126
01:06:52,722 –> 01:06:56,096
tough opponents who are 25 at

2127
01:06:56,118 –> 01:06:56,640
least.

2128
01:06:56,790 –> 01:06:58,770
Two, three days a week. Right?

2129
01:06:59,620 –> 01:07:03,696
Well, I’m in my forty s, I.

2130
01:07:03,718 –> 01:07:05,152
Go three minutes with a live

2131
01:07:05,206 –> 01:07:07,056
opponent, and I’m gassed because

2132
01:07:07,078 –> 01:07:08,432
they’re actually trying to stop

2133
01:07:08,486 –> 01:07:08,848
me.

2134
01:07:08,934 –> 01:07:09,856
And by the way, they’re using

2135
01:07:09,878 –> 01:07:10,108
brute.

2136
01:07:10,124 –> 01:07:10,928
Force, to your point, because

2137
01:07:10,934 –> 01:07:12,176
they’re 25, they’re using brute

2138
01:07:12,208 –> 01:07:13,444
force. Meanwhile, I’m not using

2139
01:07:13,482 –> 01:07:15,188
brute force. I’m trying not to

2140
01:07:15,194 –> 01:07:17,236
get injured. And I’m also not

2141
01:07:17,258 –> 01:07:19,980
25. So like, I’m aware that I’m

2142
01:07:20,000 –> 01:07:20,136
not.

2143
01:07:20,158 –> 01:07:25,016
25, but at the same time, but at

2144
01:07:25,038 –> 01:07:28,490
the same time, my brain goes,

2145
01:07:28,940 –> 01:07:30,810
you can do that, it’s fine.

2146
01:07:33,740 –> 01:07:35,256
The battle between the brain and

2147
01:07:35,278 –> 01:07:38,180
the body is the battle.

2148
01:07:38,260 –> 01:07:40,696
And as work, we see this in.

2149
01:07:40,718 –> 01:07:43,112
The decline of relevancy of men

2150
01:07:43,166 –> 01:07:45,264
in the west, or maybe should say

2151
01:07:45,302 –> 01:07:51,712
decline that’s alarmist the

2152
01:07:51,766 –> 01:07:54,128
shifting of relevancy of men in

2153
01:07:54,134 –> 01:07:58,196
the west. The things that you

2154
01:07:58,218 –> 01:07:58,676
would do with.

2155
01:07:58,698 –> 01:08:01,924
Brute force at 25, you better be

2156
01:08:01,962 –> 01:08:07,524
doing smarter at 30 because the

2157
01:08:07,562 –> 01:08:08,320
preservation.

2158
01:08:08,400 –> 01:08:11,796
Of your body across time is a

2159
01:08:11,818 –> 01:08:12,900
negotiation.

2160
01:08:14,040 –> 01:08:15,368
And I don’t think we’ve done a.

2161
01:08:15,374 –> 01:08:16,436
Really good job of explaining

2162
01:08:16,468 –> 01:08:18,036
that to people. So I wouldn’t

2163
01:08:18,068 –> 01:08:19,096
disagree with you. I would

2164
01:08:19,118 –> 01:08:20,564
merely say I think you’re

2165
01:08:20,612 –> 01:08:21,576
negotiating in two different

2166
01:08:21,598 –> 01:08:21,976
realms there.

2167
01:08:21,998 –> 01:08:23,096
You negotiate with the body and

2168
01:08:23,118 –> 01:08:23,770
the mind.

2169
01:08:24,700 –> 01:08:26,076
And it’s not that I like I agree

2170
01:08:26,098 –> 01:08:27,884
with you. Well, I would say

2171
01:08:27,922 –> 01:08:29,804
this. I can work a 14 hours day.

2172
01:08:29,922 –> 01:08:32,092
But I’m going to be bored like 4

2173
01:08:32,146 –> 01:08:35,036
hours in. I’m like, this is

2174
01:08:35,058 –> 01:08:36,912
ridiculous, why am I doing this?

2175
01:08:37,046 –> 01:08:37,488
Right?

2176
01:08:37,574 –> 01:08:38,604
I could just get up tomorrow

2177
01:08:38,652 –> 01:08:39,264
because there’ll be work

2178
01:08:39,302 –> 01:08:42,176
tomorrow. That’s a brain thing,

2179
01:08:42,278 –> 01:08:43,724
not a butt.

2180
01:08:43,772 –> 01:08:46,050
Sitting in chair thing, right?

2181
01:08:52,100 –> 01:08:53,716
Is your brain 25? Have you taken

2182
01:08:53,738 –> 01:08:54,416
one of those, like, brain

2183
01:08:54,448 –> 01:08:55,728
quizzes where like, your brain

2184
01:08:55,744 –> 01:08:58,276
is 25 or your brain is 39?

2185
01:08:58,378 –> 01:08:59,588
Actually did do one of those and

2186
01:08:59,594 –> 01:09:02,468
it said my brain was 33.

2187
01:09:02,634 –> 01:09:03,512
Oh, look at that.

2188
01:09:03,566 –> 01:09:04,120
Okay.

2189
01:09:04,270 –> 01:09:06,136
Which, by the way, I would love

2190
01:09:06,158 –> 01:09:07,336
to be 33 again. I don’t know

2191
01:09:07,358 –> 01:09:08,356
what anybody is complaining

2192
01:09:08,388 –> 01:09:14,264
about. At 33 years old, we could

2193
01:09:14,302 –> 01:09:16,844
say 25 all we want. I think the

2194
01:09:16,882 –> 01:09:19,068
early 30s is the perfect match

2195
01:09:19,154 –> 01:09:21,116
of that brain and brawn, right

2196
01:09:21,138 –> 01:09:22,972
like that early the early 30s,

2197
01:09:23,026 –> 01:09:24,924
once you get past the early 30s,

2198
01:09:24,962 –> 01:09:26,384
is when the brain should start

2199
01:09:26,422 –> 01:09:27,330
taking over.

2200
01:09:32,900 –> 01:09:34,188
The number one cause of injury

2201
01:09:34,204 –> 01:09:35,136
in old men, I’m sure you’ve seen

2202
01:09:35,158 –> 01:09:36,496
this meme before. The number one

2203
01:09:36,518 –> 01:09:37,984
cause of injury in old men is

2204
01:09:38,022 –> 01:09:39,204
them believe that they are young

2205
01:09:39,242 –> 01:09:40,324
men. Like, I’m sure you’ve seen

2206
01:09:40,362 –> 01:09:44,436
this meme before. I think that

2207
01:09:44,458 –> 01:09:46,452
temporal negotiation is also

2208
01:09:46,506 –> 01:09:48,036
complicated by and we talked

2209
01:09:48,058 –> 01:09:49,876
about this on a short episode a

2210
01:09:49,898 –> 01:09:51,288
few episodes back. I think it

2211
01:09:51,294 –> 01:09:56,024
was like 77 or 75, one of those

2212
01:09:56,062 –> 01:09:57,064
up in there. You can go listen

2213
01:09:57,102 –> 01:09:58,776
to it, but it’s this idea of the

2214
01:09:58,798 –> 01:09:59,960
cult of youth.

2215
01:10:09,940 –> 01:10:11,468
Now mind you, I do think there’s

2216
01:10:11,484 –> 01:10:12,816
a tipping point. By the way.

2217
01:10:12,918 –> 01:10:14,036
That’s what I was going to say.

2218
01:10:14,058 –> 01:10:15,316
So you and I are a little bit

2219
01:10:15,338 –> 01:10:17,476
different in age. I’m a little

2220
01:10:17,498 –> 01:10:18,996
bit older than you are. And I

2221
01:10:19,018 –> 01:10:20,420
think that I hit that at about

2222
01:10:20,490 –> 01:10:23,128
45. When I was 45 is when I

2223
01:10:23,214 –> 01:10:24,664
really started thinking I

2224
01:10:24,702 –> 01:10:26,600
shouldn’t be doing that anymore.

2225
01:10:27,100 –> 01:10:29,156
I didn’t allow my brain to cheat

2226
01:10:29,188 –> 01:10:31,448
me into thinking that I could be

2227
01:10:31,614 –> 01:10:33,496
that brute force. It was right

2228
01:10:33,518 –> 01:10:35,480
around 45 or so that I started

2229
01:10:35,550 –> 01:10:37,484
feeling like because even to

2230
01:10:37,522 –> 01:10:38,524
your point, even in my early

2231
01:10:38,562 –> 01:10:40,284
forty s forty one forty, forty

2232
01:10:40,322 –> 01:10:42,604
one forty two, I was like, I got

2233
01:10:42,642 –> 01:10:44,828
this, whatever, I can pick up

2234
01:10:44,834 –> 01:10:46,828
that 100 pound whatever, just

2235
01:10:46,914 –> 01:10:48,348
throw it on my shoulder and

2236
01:10:48,434 –> 01:10:50,430
whatever, right? But by the time

2237
01:10:50,980 –> 01:10:52,384
I think there is a tipping point

2238
01:10:52,422 –> 01:10:53,616
now bring it back to the

2239
01:10:53,638 –> 01:10:55,584
leadership part of it, I still

2240
01:10:55,622 –> 01:10:56,704
believe that. I still believe

2241
01:10:56,742 –> 01:10:57,820
that there’s a tipping point

2242
01:10:57,910 –> 01:11:03,108
where we’re talking about the

2243
01:11:03,114 –> 01:11:03,956
difference between mind and

2244
01:11:03,978 –> 01:11:06,164
body. And I think in the

2245
01:11:06,202 –> 01:11:09,924
workforce it’s mind and mind.

2246
01:11:10,042 –> 01:11:12,724
But I think it’s your strategic

2247
01:11:12,772 –> 01:11:14,632
mind versus your tactical mind,

2248
01:11:14,686 –> 01:11:15,816
right? Your tactical mind being

2249
01:11:15,838 –> 01:11:17,076
brute force and your strategic

2250
01:11:17,108 –> 01:11:20,008
mind being in our analogy about

2251
01:11:20,094 –> 01:11:22,296
mind versus body, I think the

2252
01:11:22,318 –> 01:11:24,664
mind part is your strategy part

2253
01:11:24,702 –> 01:11:25,916
and your tactical part is your

2254
01:11:25,938 –> 01:11:28,956
body part. And I think that the

2255
01:11:28,978 –> 01:11:30,156
same thing happens. There’s a

2256
01:11:30,178 –> 01:11:31,740
tipping point in your work life

2257
01:11:31,810 –> 01:11:34,284
where you realize to your point,

2258
01:11:34,402 –> 01:11:36,476
if I really put 100% effort in

2259
01:11:36,498 –> 01:11:38,524
for the next 6 hours, I should

2260
01:11:38,562 –> 01:11:40,768
not have to work the rest of

2261
01:11:40,774 –> 01:11:42,176
that 14 hours day. Like I should

2262
01:11:42,198 –> 01:11:43,664
be able to put all other stuff

2263
01:11:43,702 –> 01:11:46,176
until tomorrow. And I’m not sure

2264
01:11:46,198 –> 01:11:47,904
if it’s 45. I just think that

2265
01:11:48,022 –> 01:11:49,872
the same rule applies that

2266
01:11:50,006 –> 01:11:52,128
you’re going to work 100 hours a

2267
01:11:52,134 –> 01:11:53,428
week if you have to, until you

2268
01:11:53,434 –> 01:11:54,596
hit a tipping point where you

2269
01:11:54,618 –> 01:11:55,716
realize you shouldn’t have to do

2270
01:11:55,738 –> 01:11:57,092
that anymore. And you start

2271
01:11:57,146 –> 01:12:01,864
thinking more strategy and you

2272
01:12:01,902 –> 01:12:03,144
start employing more thought

2273
01:12:03,182 –> 01:12:05,512
process that allow you to think

2274
01:12:05,566 –> 01:12:09,044
big picture and move objects

2275
01:12:09,172 –> 01:12:11,752
with a unified force versus one

2276
01:12:11,806 –> 01:12:15,016
person. Again, I don’t know what

2277
01:12:15,038 –> 01:12:16,744
the age is. Maybe it’s less than

2278
01:12:16,782 –> 01:12:18,876
45, because I do think that, to

2279
01:12:18,898 –> 01:12:19,996
your point, I do think we do

2280
01:12:20,018 –> 01:12:20,968
physically think we’re younger

2281
01:12:20,984 –> 01:12:22,252
than we are for a lot longer.

2282
01:12:22,386 –> 01:12:24,444
Maybe it’s the mid 30s in the

2283
01:12:24,482 –> 01:12:26,172
workforce where you start

2284
01:12:26,226 –> 01:12:27,724
thinking, all right, I’m at an

2285
01:12:27,762 –> 01:12:29,084
age now where the younger people

2286
01:12:29,122 –> 01:12:30,216
think I’m old and the older

2287
01:12:30,248 –> 01:12:31,648
people still don’t know what I’m

2288
01:12:31,734 –> 01:12:32,928
the older people still think I

2289
01:12:32,934 –> 01:12:33,664
don’t know what I’m talking

2290
01:12:33,702 –> 01:12:35,296
about. But I do, and I need to

2291
01:12:35,318 –> 01:12:36,496
kind of start shifting my

2292
01:12:36,518 –> 01:12:40,416
mindset to really getting the

2293
01:12:40,438 –> 01:12:41,876
older people to buy in and the

2294
01:12:41,898 –> 01:12:43,316
younger people to realize that I

2295
01:12:43,338 –> 01:12:44,804
am now the one to turn to for

2296
01:12:44,842 –> 01:12:45,584
answers.

2297
01:12:45,712 –> 01:12:47,956
Okay? So that goes directly to

2298
01:12:47,978 –> 01:12:50,516
that whole cult of youth. We

2299
01:12:50,538 –> 01:12:52,416
have this whole thing, and it’s

2300
01:12:52,448 –> 01:12:53,576
so deeply embedded in our

2301
01:12:53,598 –> 01:12:54,088
culture that.

2302
01:12:54,094 –> 01:12:55,832
When you call it out, people

2303
01:12:55,886 –> 01:12:57,220
think you’re a weirdo.

2304
01:12:57,380 –> 01:12:58,090
Right.

2305
01:12:58,620 –> 01:13:00,264
And the thing to call out is.

2306
01:13:00,302 –> 01:13:02,484
This we have now fully bought

2307
01:13:02,532 –> 01:13:03,880
into the never trust anybody

2308
01:13:03,950 –> 01:13:06,056
over 30 kind of idea. We fully

2309
01:13:06,088 –> 01:13:07,884
bought into that. Like, we were

2310
01:13:07,922 –> 01:13:09,116
fully bought in probably in

2311
01:13:09,138 –> 01:13:10,648
1985. We were, like, fully

2312
01:13:10,664 –> 01:13:11,870
bought in. Right.

2313
01:13:12,320 –> 01:13:15,608
The problem is, we know at a

2314
01:13:15,634 –> 01:13:19,200
practical level that the best

2315
01:13:19,270 –> 01:13:22,256
people to be in charge are the

2316
01:13:22,278 –> 01:13:23,650
most mature people.

2317
01:13:24,100 –> 01:13:26,530
And quite frankly, I’m sorry.

2318
01:13:27,060 –> 01:13:28,876
I’m glad you’re 35 and you’ve

2319
01:13:28,908 –> 01:13:30,416
had some experiences. And by the

2320
01:13:30,438 –> 01:13:31,616
way by the way, I was saying

2321
01:13:31,638 –> 01:13:33,376
this when I was 35. Like, I went

2322
01:13:33,398 –> 01:13:34,656
out as a consultant. I started

2323
01:13:34,678 –> 01:13:35,488
out as a consultant when I was

2324
01:13:35,494 –> 01:13:36,768
33 years old, and one of the

2325
01:13:36,774 –> 01:13:37,720
first things I said out of my

2326
01:13:37,730 –> 01:13:39,436
mouth was, I’m stupid.

2327
01:13:39,628 –> 01:13:41,130
I’m 30 free.

2328
01:13:42,220 –> 01:13:43,624
I just haven’t lived long

2329
01:13:43,662 –> 01:13:44,250
enough.

2330
01:13:45,500 –> 01:13:47,240
Never trust anybody over 30. Yet

2331
01:13:47,310 –> 01:13:50,664
every world leader is, like, 60

2332
01:13:50,782 –> 01:13:53,672
in their 60s. Never trust

2333
01:13:53,726 –> 01:13:54,824
anybody over 30. But yet we

2334
01:13:54,862 –> 01:13:57,976
continue to vote in 70 year olds

2335
01:13:58,008 –> 01:13:59,992
as president and 80.

2336
01:14:00,056 –> 01:14:02,856
Year olds, 70 year olds and 80

2337
01:14:02,888 –> 01:14:03,708
year olds. We can’t even get a

2338
01:14:03,714 –> 01:14:04,812
50 year old in there.

2339
01:14:04,946 –> 01:14:05,948
Exactly right.

2340
01:14:06,034 –> 01:14:08,256
50 is too young. So on the one

2341
01:14:08,278 –> 01:14:09,552
hand, we have this never trust

2342
01:14:09,606 –> 01:14:11,024
anybody over 30 kind.

2343
01:14:11,062 –> 01:14:12,976
Of thing, but then on the other.

2344
01:14:12,998 –> 01:14:14,428
Hand, we have the schizophrenia

2345
01:14:14,524 –> 01:14:25,582
where we know are tied inmically

2346
01:14:25,666 –> 01:14:29,018
together and that they are both

2347
01:14:29,104 –> 01:14:31,302
valuable things that interlock.

2348
01:14:31,366 –> 01:14:32,902
And it is this negotiation

2349
01:14:32,966 –> 01:14:34,010
across time.

2350
01:14:34,160 –> 01:14:37,786
That we don’t do well.

2351
01:14:37,968 –> 01:14:39,454
And maybe it’s just a thing in

2352
01:14:39,492 –> 01:14:42,494
America that we don’t do well. I

2353
01:14:42,532 –> 01:14:44,686
suspect it probably is for my

2354
01:14:44,708 –> 01:14:45,726
international listeners who are

2355
01:14:45,748 –> 01:14:47,326
in places like India and in

2356
01:14:47,348 –> 01:14:50,090
South Africa and in Turkey and

2357
01:14:50,180 –> 01:14:52,034
other places, your mileage will

2358
01:14:52,072 –> 01:14:53,330
probably vary.

2359
01:14:54,230 –> 01:14:55,758
But in America, if you’re

2360
01:14:55,774 –> 01:14:56,798
listening internationally.

2361
01:14:56,894 –> 01:15:03,606
In America, for sure, we are

2362
01:15:03,628 –> 01:15:06,422
trapped on the two horns right.

2363
01:15:06,476 –> 01:15:08,040
Of that dilemma. Right.

2364
01:15:10,090 –> 01:15:11,494
Why do 30 year olds still listen

2365
01:15:11,532 –> 01:15:12,710
to Warren Buffett?

2366
01:15:13,870 –> 01:15:14,886
Because he knows what he’s

2367
01:15:14,918 –> 01:15:15,722
talking about.

2368
01:15:15,856 –> 01:15:17,526
Right. And how come he knows

2369
01:15:17,558 –> 01:15:21,866
what he’s talking about? How

2370
01:15:21,888 –> 01:15:23,734
come is it that my Instagram

2371
01:15:23,782 –> 01:15:25,690
feed on business? Instagram is

2372
01:15:25,760 –> 01:15:28,330
full of like thirty s and forty

2373
01:15:28,400 –> 01:15:31,578
year olds who are chasing clicks

2374
01:15:31,594 –> 01:15:32,654
and clout and every other

2375
01:15:32,692 –> 01:15:32,986
friggin.

2376
01:15:33,018 –> 01:15:35,086
Thing, but if you put them up.

2377
01:15:35,108 –> 01:15:36,078
Against Warren Buffett I’m going

2378
01:15:36,084 –> 01:15:36,958
to take Warren Buffett every day

2379
01:15:36,964 –> 01:15:38,234
and twice on Sundays.

2380
01:15:38,362 –> 01:15:42,754
Yeah, for sure, right? At some

2381
01:15:42,792 –> 01:15:45,262
point we’ve got to publicly.

2382
01:15:45,326 –> 01:15:46,738
Say, yeah, we’re trusting the

2383
01:15:46,744 –> 01:15:47,460
old people.

2384
01:15:48,950 –> 01:15:50,306
I think that’s hilarious the way

2385
01:15:50,328 –> 01:15:52,098
that you phrased it, too. It’s

2386
01:15:52,114 –> 01:15:54,534
like we’re fighting against what

2387
01:15:54,572 –> 01:15:57,174
we project as our thought

2388
01:15:57,212 –> 01:15:58,614
processes versus what is really

2389
01:15:58,652 –> 01:15:59,634
our thought processes.

2390
01:15:59,682 –> 01:16:00,280
Right.

2391
01:16:01,770 –> 01:16:03,798
We hide behind that social norm

2392
01:16:03,884 –> 01:16:06,566
of never trust anybody under

2393
01:16:06,668 –> 01:16:09,958
over 30. Right? Because if you

2394
01:16:09,964 –> 01:16:11,626
think about it, in 1985 might be

2395
01:16:11,648 –> 01:16:13,162
a little early. I was thinking

2396
01:16:13,216 –> 01:16:16,186
like the late 90s is really when

2397
01:16:16,208 –> 01:16:18,774
this right when the.com boom

2398
01:16:18,822 –> 01:16:20,378
started and the tech companies

2399
01:16:20,464 –> 01:16:22,734
really started because us old

2400
01:16:22,772 –> 01:16:23,866
folks have no idea what we’re

2401
01:16:23,898 –> 01:16:24,986
doing in tech. Right. You can’t

2402
01:16:25,018 –> 01:16:26,606
hire somebody in their 40s or

2403
01:16:26,628 –> 01:16:27,818
early 50s because they don’t

2404
01:16:27,834 –> 01:16:29,294
know how to use a computer. You

2405
01:16:29,332 –> 01:16:30,846
have to get somebody under 30

2406
01:16:30,948 –> 01:16:32,146
because now it’s all about the

2407
01:16:32,168 –> 01:16:33,074
under. That was a whole

2408
01:16:33,112 –> 01:16:34,386
millennial movement, which, by

2409
01:16:34,408 –> 01:16:35,646
the way, millennials are turning

2410
01:16:35,678 –> 01:16:39,826
40. So your own philosophy is

2411
01:16:39,848 –> 01:16:40,994
going to come back to bite you

2412
01:16:41,032 –> 01:16:42,600
in the very near future.

2413
01:16:43,610 –> 01:16:45,126
You will be judged by the

2414
01:16:45,148 –> 01:16:46,434
measure that you have judged

2415
01:16:46,482 –> 01:16:50,310
others, and you will be found

2416
01:16:50,380 –> 01:16:51,846
wanting by the standard that you

2417
01:16:51,868 –> 01:16:53,494
have established for others. So

2418
01:16:53,532 –> 01:16:54,470
be careful.

2419
01:16:55,690 –> 01:16:56,594
Tread lightly.

2420
01:16:56,642 –> 01:16:58,246
I believe that Augustine would

2421
01:16:58,268 –> 01:16:59,560
say the same thing.

2422
01:17:00,010 –> 01:17:01,370
Tread lightly.

2423
01:17:01,710 –> 01:17:03,754
Back to the book, back to the

2424
01:17:03,792 –> 01:17:04,682
City of God.

2425
01:17:04,816 –> 01:17:05,954
We’re going to turn the corner

2426
01:17:06,022 –> 01:17:06,640
here.

2427
01:17:11,090 –> 01:17:12,734
Augustine has something to say

2428
01:17:12,772 –> 01:17:15,200
here in book Two, Chapter 25

2429
01:17:15,570 –> 01:17:16,494
that I think.

2430
01:17:16,612 –> 01:17:21,114
Shed some light on morals and

2431
01:17:21,172 –> 01:17:21,394
the.

2432
01:17:21,432 –> 01:17:23,714
Enlightenment project, in

2433
01:17:23,752 –> 01:17:25,538
addition to as we turn the

2434
01:17:25,544 –> 01:17:26,706
corner here, the value of

2435
01:17:26,728 –> 01:17:27,858
classical discourse, which is

2436
01:17:27,864 –> 01:17:28,978
something we’ve been sort of

2437
01:17:29,064 –> 01:17:30,306
talking about throughout this

2438
01:17:30,328 –> 01:17:32,038
entire podcast. So back to the

2439
01:17:32,044 –> 01:17:33,974
book. Back to City of God. Book

2440
01:17:34,012 –> 01:17:37,314
two, chapter 25 by St. Augustine

2441
01:17:37,362 –> 01:17:39,202
of Hippo. The Penguin Classics

2442
01:17:39,266 –> 01:17:40,070
edition.

2443
01:17:41,050 –> 01:17:42,406
Can anyone fail to see and

2444
01:17:42,428 –> 01:17:42,806
understand.

2445
01:17:42,908 –> 01:17:43,958
Unless he is one of those who

2446
01:17:43,964 –> 01:17:45,258
prefer to copy such gods and to

2447
01:17:45,264 –> 01:17:46,454
be kept free from their society

2448
01:17:46,502 –> 01:17:48,794
by the grace of God? What

2449
01:17:48,832 –> 01:17:50,134
efforts these malignant spirits

2450
01:17:50,182 –> 01:17:52,266
use to give by their example a

2451
01:17:52,288 –> 01:17:53,802
presumed divine authority to

2452
01:17:53,856 –> 01:17:57,286
criminal acts. They were indeed

2453
01:17:57,318 –> 01:17:58,406
seen joining battle among

2454
01:17:58,438 –> 01:17:59,706
themselves in a wide plain and

2455
01:17:59,728 –> 01:18:01,358
Campagno shortly before the

2456
01:18:01,364 –> 01:18:02,286
citizen armies fought their

2457
01:18:02,308 –> 01:18:03,422
shameful battle in that very

2458
01:18:03,476 –> 01:18:04,080
place.

2459
01:18:04,610 –> 01:18:06,126
For first a terrible din was

2460
01:18:06,148 –> 01:18:06,382
heard.

2461
01:18:06,436 –> 01:18:07,566
And before long, many people

2462
01:18:07,588 –> 01:18:08,606
reported that they had seen two

2463
01:18:08,628 –> 01:18:09,626
armies fighting for several

2464
01:18:09,658 –> 01:18:10,858
days. And when the fighting

2465
01:18:10,874 –> 01:18:12,094
stopped, men found what looked

2466
01:18:12,132 –> 01:18:13,166
like the tracks of men and

2467
01:18:13,188 –> 01:18:14,546
forces such as could have been

2468
01:18:14,568 –> 01:18:15,634
left on the ground as a result

2469
01:18:15,672 –> 01:18:17,298
of that encounter. Thus, a

2470
01:18:17,304 –> 01:18:18,658
battle among divinities, if it

2471
01:18:18,664 –> 01:18:20,254
really happened, gives excuse

2472
01:18:20,302 –> 01:18:21,086
for civil wars.

2473
01:18:21,118 –> 01:18:23,086
Between men and 1 may notice

2474
01:18:23,118 –> 01:18:23,266
the.

2475
01:18:23,288 –> 01:18:24,698
Malice or the misery of gods

2476
01:18:24,734 –> 01:18:27,606
like these. While if it was a

2477
01:18:27,628 –> 01:18:29,286
mere pretense of a battle, the

2478
01:18:29,308 –> 01:18:30,534
only purpose was to gloss over

2479
01:18:30,572 –> 01:18:31,846
the crime of civil war by giving

2480
01:18:31,868 –> 01:18:33,330
it a divine precedent.

2481
01:18:33,490 –> 01:18:34,946
Civil war was already underway,

2482
01:18:34,978 –> 01:18:35,286
and a.

2483
01:18:35,308 –> 01:18:36,546
Number of other loathsome

2484
01:18:36,578 –> 01:18:37,586
battles had already been fought

2485
01:18:37,618 –> 01:18:39,274
with frightful bloodshed. Many

2486
01:18:39,312 –> 01:18:40,538
had been touched by the tale of

2487
01:18:40,544 –> 01:18:41,546
a soldier who stripped the

2488
01:18:41,568 –> 01:18:41,958
spoils.

2489
01:18:41,974 –> 01:18:43,434
From one of the slain and

2490
01:18:43,472 –> 01:18:45,194
recognized his own brother. When

2491
01:18:45,232 –> 01:18:47,306
the corpse was bare, moved to.

2492
01:18:47,328 –> 01:18:48,614
Abhorrent to such civil strife,

2493
01:18:48,662 –> 01:18:49,010
he killed.

2494
01:18:49,030 –> 01:18:50,878
Himself on the spot and fell on

2495
01:18:50,884 –> 01:18:53,326
his brother’s lifeless body. To

2496
01:18:53,348 –> 01:18:54,814
mitigate the disgust caused by

2497
01:18:54,852 –> 01:18:55,054
such.

2498
01:18:55,092 –> 01:18:56,238
Tragedies, and to inflame the

2499
01:18:56,244 –> 01:18:57,306
ardor for this abominable

2500
01:18:57,338 –> 01:18:58,842
warfare, the maligned devils,

2501
01:18:58,906 –> 01:19:00,126
whom the Romans thought of as

2502
01:19:00,148 –> 01:19:01,486
gods and the proper objects of

2503
01:19:01,508 –> 01:19:03,134
worship and veneration, decided

2504
01:19:03,182 –> 01:19:04,306
to show themselves to men as.

2505
01:19:04,328 –> 01:19:05,874
Fighting among themselves, so

2506
01:19:05,912 –> 01:19:06,526
that the natural.

2507
01:19:06,558 –> 01:19:07,806
Affection between citizens

2508
01:19:07,838 –> 01:19:08,846
should not shrink to imitate

2509
01:19:08,878 –> 01:19:10,446
such battles. But the gods

2510
01:19:10,478 –> 01:19:11,966
example might rather excuse.

2511
01:19:11,998 –> 01:19:16,326
The crimes of men with the same.

2512
01:19:16,348 –> 01:19:17,686
Astuteness the evil spirits also

2513
01:19:17,708 –> 01:19:19,138
commanded theatrical shows. I’ve

2514
01:19:19,154 –> 01:19:20,086
already said a good deal about

2515
01:19:20,108 –> 01:19:21,126
this to be dedicated and

2516
01:19:21,148 –> 01:19:22,774
consecrated to them, in which

2517
01:19:22,812 –> 01:19:23,926
the enormities of the gods were

2518
01:19:23,948 –> 01:19:25,218
celebrated on the stage, in song

2519
01:19:25,234 –> 01:19:26,562
and enacted narrative.

2520
01:19:26,706 –> 01:19:27,786
A man might believe or

2521
01:19:27,808 –> 01:19:28,298
disbelieve the.

2522
01:19:28,304 –> 01:19:29,386
Actual stories, but he could see

2523
01:19:29,408 –> 01:19:30,378
that the gods were delighted to

2524
01:19:30,384 –> 01:19:32,026
have such acts represented, and

2525
01:19:32,048 –> 01:19:33,340
thus he would feel.

2526
01:19:34,110 –> 01:19:36,060
Free to imitate them.

2527
01:19:36,990 –> 01:19:39,174
And so to prevent the idea that

2528
01:19:39,232 –> 01:19:40,954
wherever, whenever the poets

2529
01:19:41,002 –> 01:19:42,218
record fighting among the gods,

2530
01:19:42,234 –> 01:19:43,166
they are libeling them by

2531
01:19:43,188 –> 01:19:44,474
inventing discreditable stories,

2532
01:19:44,522 –> 01:19:45,774
the gods have themselves given

2533
01:19:45,812 –> 01:19:47,546
confirmation to the poet’s songs

2534
01:19:47,578 –> 01:19:49,066
to deceive mankind by displaying

2535
01:19:49,098 –> 01:19:49,822
their battles before.

2536
01:19:49,876 –> 01:19:51,706
Men’S eyes not only in stage

2537
01:19:51,738 –> 01:19:54,386
plays, but even by enacting them

2538
01:19:54,408 –> 01:19:55,458
in person on the field of

2539
01:19:55,464 –> 01:19:58,178
battle. I have been forced to

2540
01:19:58,184 –> 01:19:58,466
say this.

2541
01:19:58,488 –> 01:19:59,506
Because the Roman writers have

2542
01:19:59,528 –> 01:20:00,578
no hesitation in saying that the

2543
01:20:00,584 –> 01:20:01,586
Roman Commonwealth had been

2544
01:20:01,608 –> 01:20:03,714
ruined by moral degradation and

2545
01:20:03,752 –> 01:20:05,138
had in fact ceased to exist at

2546
01:20:05,144 –> 01:20:06,166
all long before the coming of

2547
01:20:06,188 –> 01:20:08,726
our Lord Christ Jesus. They did

2548
01:20:08,748 –> 01:20:09,926
not blame their own gods for

2549
01:20:09,948 –> 01:20:11,126
this ruin, yet they blame our

2550
01:20:11,148 –> 01:20:12,114
Lord for the transitory

2551
01:20:12,162 –> 01:20:13,638
disasters which cannot bring a

2552
01:20:13,644 –> 01:20:15,174
good man to extinction, whether

2553
01:20:15,212 –> 01:20:16,706
he lives or dies.

2554
01:20:16,898 –> 01:20:18,426
Yet Christ’s teaching is full of

2555
01:20:18,448 –> 01:20:18,854
instructions.

2556
01:20:18,902 –> 01:20:20,006
For the promotion of the highest

2557
01:20:20,038 –> 01:20:21,258
morality and the reproof of

2558
01:20:21,264 –> 01:20:22,906
wickedness. While those gods of

2559
01:20:22,928 –> 01:20:24,346
theirs never took the trouble to

2560
01:20:24,368 –> 01:20:25,386
impress such commands on their

2561
01:20:25,408 –> 01:20:26,826
worshippers so as to save that

2562
01:20:26,848 –> 01:20:28,266
Commonwealth from utter ruin. In

2563
01:20:28,288 –> 01:20:29,978
fact, they were more concerned

2564
01:20:29,994 –> 01:20:31,006
to ensure its ruined by

2565
01:20:31,028 –> 01:20:32,078
corrupting morality through the

2566
01:20:32,084 –> 01:20:33,502
baneful authority of their

2567
01:20:33,556 –> 01:20:34,160
example.

2568
01:20:35,490 –> 01:20:36,814
I do not suppose that anyone

2569
01:20:36,852 –> 01:20:37,054
will.

2570
01:20:37,092 –> 01:20:38,286
After this have the face to

2571
01:20:38,308 –> 01:20:39,546
assert that the commonwealth

2572
01:20:39,578 –> 01:20:40,846
perished because the gods then

2573
01:20:40,868 –> 01:20:41,906
deserted all the shrines and

2574
01:20:41,928 –> 01:20:42,770
altars.

2575
01:20:43,190 –> 01:20:45,406
Like friends of virtue disgusted

2576
01:20:45,438 –> 01:20:47,186
at the vices of men since they

2577
01:20:47,208 –> 01:20:47,714
used their.

2578
01:20:47,752 –> 01:20:49,138
Efforts by all those signs in

2579
01:20:49,144 –> 01:20:50,526
the shape of entrails, augeries

2580
01:20:50,558 –> 01:20:52,274
and prophecies to boast and

2581
01:20:52,312 –> 01:20:53,898
commend themselves as foreseers

2582
01:20:53,934 –> 01:20:55,234
of the future and as assistants

2583
01:20:55,282 –> 01:20:57,286
in battle and thus are proved to

2584
01:20:57,308 –> 01:20:58,200
have been present.

2585
01:20:58,890 –> 01:21:00,678
If they had absented themselves,

2586
01:21:00,764 –> 01:21:01,474
the Romans.

2587
01:21:01,522 –> 01:21:03,266
Own ambitions would have fired

2588
01:21:03,298 –> 01:21:04,154
them with.

2589
01:21:04,192 –> 01:21:06,746
Less ardor for civil war that

2590
01:21:06,768 –> 01:21:10,410
did the prompting of the gods.

2591
01:21:18,820 –> 01:21:21,164
I’m going to quote, as a backup.

2592
01:21:21,212 –> 01:21:23,744
To Augustine a study that was

2593
01:21:23,782 –> 01:21:25,168
recently released and we’re

2594
01:21:25,174 –> 01:21:26,164
going to have the link to that

2595
01:21:26,202 –> 01:21:26,788
study.

2596
01:21:26,954 –> 01:21:29,156
From the journal Nature saw this

2597
01:21:29,178 –> 01:21:30,964
a couple of days ago and it

2598
01:21:31,002 –> 01:21:31,344
struck.

2599
01:21:31,392 –> 01:21:33,124
Me because Augustine is talking

2600
01:21:33,162 –> 01:21:36,376
about moral degradation in the

2601
01:21:36,398 –> 01:21:40,072
year, in the year of 300

2602
01:21:40,126 –> 01:21:41,304
something when this book was

2603
01:21:41,342 –> 01:21:42,040
written.

2604
01:21:43,660 –> 01:21:47,416
And well, we are 1700 years.

2605
01:21:47,598 –> 01:21:48,744
Have I mentioned the more things

2606
01:21:48,782 –> 01:21:49,608
change, more things are the

2607
01:21:49,614 –> 01:21:51,772
same? Have I used that line yet?

2608
01:21:51,906 –> 01:21:53,196
You have, and I’m about to give

2609
01:21:53,218 –> 01:21:54,428
you some scientific proof to

2610
01:21:54,434 –> 01:21:55,468
back this up.

2611
01:21:55,634 –> 01:21:58,616
So, from the Journal Nature, I’m

2612
01:21:58,648 –> 01:21:58,748
going.

2613
01:21:58,754 –> 01:22:00,252
To quote extensively or read

2614
01:22:00,306 –> 01:22:02,844
extensively from the abstract to

2615
01:22:02,882 –> 01:22:04,112
the study and you can go Google

2616
01:22:04,166 –> 01:22:05,696
it when you click on the link in

2617
01:22:05,718 –> 01:22:07,276
the show notes below the player

2618
01:22:07,308 –> 01:22:10,316
on the podcast. And I quote

2619
01:22:10,348 –> 01:22:11,580
directly from the journal Nature

2620
01:22:11,660 –> 01:22:13,084
anecdotal evidence indicates

2621
01:22:13,132 –> 01:22:13,824
that people believe.

2622
01:22:13,862 –> 01:22:15,676
That morality is declining.

2623
01:22:15,868 –> 01:22:17,444
In a series of studies using

2624
01:22:17,482 –> 01:22:19,364
both archival and original data,

2625
01:22:19,482 –> 01:22:20,836
we show that people in at least

2626
01:22:20,858 –> 01:22:22,132
60 nations around the world

2627
01:22:22,186 –> 01:22:23,156
believe that morality is

2628
01:22:23,178 –> 01:22:24,276
declining, that they have

2629
01:22:24,298 –> 01:22:25,700
believed this for at least 70

2630
01:22:25,770 –> 01:22:27,076
years, and that they attribute

2631
01:22:27,108 –> 01:22:28,696
this decline both to the

2632
01:22:28,718 –> 01:22:29,576
decreasing morality of

2633
01:22:29,598 –> 01:22:31,176
individuals as they age and to

2634
01:22:31,198 –> 01:22:32,824
the decreasing morality of

2635
01:22:32,862 –> 01:22:35,736
successive generations. Next, we

2636
01:22:35,758 –> 01:22:37,032
show that people’s reports of

2637
01:22:37,086 –> 01:22:37,996
the morality of their

2638
01:22:38,018 –> 01:22:39,416
contemporaries have not declined

2639
01:22:39,448 –> 01:22:40,956
over time, suggesting that the

2640
01:22:40,978 –> 01:22:41,288
perception.

2641
01:22:41,304 –> 01:22:44,380
Of moral decline is an illusion.

2642
01:22:45,280 –> 01:22:48,572
Finally, we show how a simple

2643
01:22:48,626 –> 01:22:49,112
mechanism.

2644
01:22:49,176 –> 01:22:50,216
Based on two well established

2645
01:22:50,248 –> 01:22:52,104
psychological phenomena biased

2646
01:22:52,152 –> 01:22:53,228
exposure to information and

2647
01:22:53,234 –> 01:22:54,544
biased memory for information

2648
01:22:54,662 –> 01:22:56,556
can produce an illusion of moral

2649
01:22:56,588 –> 01:22:57,916
decline. And we report studies

2650
01:22:57,948 –> 01:22:58,896
that confirm two of its

2651
01:22:58,918 –> 01:22:59,808
predictions about the

2652
01:22:59,814 –> 01:23:00,896
circumstances under which the

2653
01:23:00,918 –> 01:23:02,016
perception of moral decline is

2654
01:23:02,038 –> 01:23:03,664
attenuated eliminated or

2655
01:23:03,702 –> 01:23:05,024
reversed. That is, when

2656
01:23:05,062 –> 01:23:06,068
respondents are asked about the

2657
01:23:06,074 –> 01:23:07,124
morality of people they know

2658
01:23:07,162 –> 01:23:07,364
well.

2659
01:23:07,402 –> 01:23:09,844
Or people who lived before the

2660
01:23:09,882 –> 01:23:12,340
respondent was born together.

2661
01:23:12,410 –> 01:23:13,428
Our studies show that the

2662
01:23:13,434 –> 01:23:14,596
perception of moral decline is

2663
01:23:14,618 –> 01:23:17,672
pervasive, produl, unfounded and

2664
01:23:17,726 –> 01:23:20,564
easily produced. This illusion

2665
01:23:20,612 –> 01:23:22,456
has implications for research on

2666
01:23:22,478 –> 01:23:24,116
the misallocation of scarce

2667
01:23:24,148 –> 01:23:26,056
resources, the underuse of

2668
01:23:26,078 –> 01:23:28,092
social support and social

2669
01:23:28,226 –> 01:23:29,416
influence.

2670
01:23:29,608 –> 01:23:37,164
Close quote. So you’ll be happy

2671
01:23:37,202 –> 01:23:38,396
to know, Tom, moral decline is

2672
01:23:38,418 –> 01:23:40,524
an illusion. It’s just something

2673
01:23:40,562 –> 01:23:41,484
that you believe based.

2674
01:23:41,522 –> 01:23:42,672
Off of the things you’re seeing

2675
01:23:42,726 –> 01:23:42,848
in.

2676
01:23:42,854 –> 01:23:45,330
Your time and it’s based off of

2677
01:23:45,860 –> 01:23:46,640
what is it?

2678
01:23:46,710 –> 01:23:48,540
Biased psychological phenomenon,

2679
01:23:48,620 –> 01:23:49,760
biased exposure to information,

2680
01:23:49,830 –> 01:23:50,896
and biased memory for

2681
01:23:50,918 –> 01:23:52,192
information. So you only

2682
01:23:52,246 –> 01:23:54,608
remember the negative things of

2683
01:23:54,774 –> 01:23:57,088
the generation you’re in. And I

2684
01:23:57,094 –> 01:23:58,004
haven’t read the whole study.

2685
01:23:58,042 –> 01:23:59,748
But I’m going to suppose that

2686
01:23:59,754 –> 01:23:59,876
this.

2687
01:23:59,898 –> 01:24:00,950
Is where they’re going.

2688
01:24:01,640 –> 01:24:02,816
You only remember the negative

2689
01:24:02,848 –> 01:24:03,188
things of.

2690
01:24:03,194 –> 01:24:04,884
The time in which you live, but

2691
01:24:04,922 –> 01:24:05,876
unfortunately you only have

2692
01:24:05,898 –> 01:24:06,996
access to a limited amount of

2693
01:24:07,018 –> 01:24:07,876
information, although you do

2694
01:24:07,898 –> 01:24:08,788
have Google, but we’ll leave

2695
01:24:08,794 –> 01:24:09,956
that aside for just a second.

2696
01:24:10,058 –> 01:24:11,296
You have access to a limited

2697
01:24:11,328 –> 01:24:12,676
amount of information that is

2698
01:24:12,698 –> 01:24:14,004
only based on your time in your

2699
01:24:14,042 –> 01:24:15,696
narrow neighborhood. And thus

2700
01:24:15,728 –> 01:24:16,656
the people in your narrow

2701
01:24:16,688 –> 01:24:17,996
neighborhood and the folks and

2702
01:24:18,018 –> 01:24:18,764
your neighborhood is your

2703
01:24:18,802 –> 01:24:20,316
generation. The people in your

2704
01:24:20,338 –> 01:24:21,436
generation are always worse than

2705
01:24:21,458 –> 01:24:22,524
the generations that came before

2706
01:24:22,562 –> 01:24:22,716
you.

2707
01:24:22,738 –> 01:24:24,060
But this is an illusion.

2708
01:24:25,120 –> 01:24:26,604
So you’ll be happy to know that

2709
01:24:26,722 –> 01:24:27,948
you’re under a delusion and you

2710
01:24:27,954 –> 01:24:28,028
could.

2711
01:24:28,034 –> 01:24:29,230
Just get rid of that.

2712
01:24:31,360 –> 01:24:33,164
It kind of reminds me so I read

2713
01:24:33,202 –> 01:24:35,580
this study once about

2714
01:24:35,650 –> 01:24:37,244
intelligence levels, right, that

2715
01:24:37,282 –> 01:24:38,716
every generation thinks the

2716
01:24:38,738 –> 01:24:40,284
generation behind them is less

2717
01:24:40,322 –> 01:24:42,204
intelligent because of something

2718
01:24:42,242 –> 01:24:43,284
they’re doing, right? Some

2719
01:24:43,322 –> 01:24:45,524
stupid thing, some fad, whether

2720
01:24:45,562 –> 01:24:48,230
it’s clothing or dance styles or

2721
01:24:48,600 –> 01:24:51,844
whatever, when the reality is

2722
01:24:51,882 –> 01:24:53,236
actually quite the opposite. The

2723
01:24:53,258 –> 01:24:55,212
reality is our intelligence

2724
01:24:55,296 –> 01:24:57,060
levels are actually increasing

2725
01:24:57,140 –> 01:24:58,504
exponentially as we move

2726
01:24:58,542 –> 01:25:02,170
forward. It just changes, and

2727
01:25:03,340 –> 01:25:05,960
it’s noticeable in certain

2728
01:25:06,030 –> 01:25:07,836
subject matter, right? For

2729
01:25:07,858 –> 01:25:11,084
example, geography, right? I

2730
01:25:11,122 –> 01:25:13,384
watched this guy this is TikTok.

2731
01:25:13,432 –> 01:25:17,036
All right, here we go. But the

2732
01:25:17,058 –> 01:25:18,492
guy was like, this is just

2733
01:25:18,546 –> 01:25:19,836
interviewing random people on

2734
01:25:19,858 –> 01:25:21,036
the streets of Times Square in

2735
01:25:21,058 –> 01:25:22,900
New York City. And he said he’s

2736
01:25:22,920 –> 01:25:24,496
asking questions like, how many

2737
01:25:24,518 –> 01:25:25,552
states are there in the United

2738
01:25:25,606 –> 01:25:28,604
States? And the range of answers

2739
01:25:28,652 –> 01:25:30,832
were just dumbfounding to me

2740
01:25:30,886 –> 01:25:32,016
because to me that seems like

2741
01:25:32,038 –> 01:25:35,110
such an idiotic question, right?

2742
01:25:37,000 –> 01:25:38,196
What’s? The capital of the

2743
01:25:38,218 –> 01:25:41,008
United States. One person I’m

2744
01:25:41,024 –> 01:25:41,936
not going to say male or female,

2745
01:25:41,968 –> 01:25:44,884
but one person said, A. The

2746
01:25:44,922 –> 01:25:46,324
capital A in the United States

2747
01:25:46,362 –> 01:25:47,908
of America, that should be the

2748
01:25:47,914 –> 01:25:48,368
capital.

2749
01:25:48,464 –> 01:25:49,448
You know? And I’m thinking to

2750
01:25:49,454 –> 01:25:51,096
myself, how have.

2751
01:25:51,118 –> 01:25:53,768
We gone this far? But those same

2752
01:25:53,854 –> 01:25:56,250
people are the ones that are

2753
01:25:57,820 –> 01:25:59,288
purposefully tweaking the

2754
01:25:59,374 –> 01:26:02,024
algorithms on YouTube or TikTok

2755
01:26:02,072 –> 01:26:04,300
or they know how to manipulate

2756
01:26:04,640 –> 01:26:06,696
product placement, so they’re

2757
01:26:06,728 –> 01:26:08,316
not less intelligent, but I

2758
01:26:08,338 –> 01:26:09,308
think it’s just changed. So to

2759
01:26:09,314 –> 01:26:10,260
your point about the moral

2760
01:26:10,280 –> 01:26:14,204
degradation, I have this weird

2761
01:26:14,252 –> 01:26:15,788
suspicion that it’s literally

2762
01:26:15,884 –> 01:26:17,904
identical, that it’s the same no

2763
01:26:17,942 –> 01:26:19,536
matter what time or error that

2764
01:26:19,558 –> 01:26:21,056
you’re standing in. It’s just a

2765
01:26:21,078 –> 01:26:24,276
matter of how you interpret the

2766
01:26:24,298 –> 01:26:27,476
information pouring into you and

2767
01:26:27,658 –> 01:26:29,556
how valuable that information is

2768
01:26:29,578 –> 01:26:31,030
to you personally. Right.

2769
01:26:32,120 –> 01:26:35,184
By the way, I do think that.

2770
01:26:35,242 –> 01:26:40,708
There are some foundational

2771
01:26:40,804 –> 01:26:42,792
pieces that aren’t really

2772
01:26:42,846 –> 01:26:44,264
degradating as much as we think

2773
01:26:44,302 –> 01:26:46,696
they are. I think it’s the

2774
01:26:46,718 –> 01:26:48,856
layered moralities that we’re

2775
01:26:48,888 –> 01:26:51,036
talking about versus the for

2776
01:26:51,058 –> 01:26:54,332
example, that whole treat

2777
01:26:54,386 –> 01:26:58,088
somebody with respect. You’re

2778
01:26:58,104 –> 01:26:58,956
going to treat somebody as a

2779
01:26:58,978 –> 01:26:59,916
human being when you meet them

2780
01:26:59,938 –> 01:27:01,260
as a human being. That’s just

2781
01:27:01,330 –> 01:27:03,468
natural for you to do that, to

2782
01:27:03,474 –> 01:27:05,208
me is a moral compass like,

2783
01:27:05,234 –> 01:27:07,008
that’s your moral foundation is

2784
01:27:07,094 –> 01:27:08,930
being treated as a human being.

2785
01:27:10,820 –> 01:27:12,172
When you get a couple of layers

2786
01:27:12,236 –> 01:27:14,260
after that, that’s where I think

2787
01:27:14,330 –> 01:27:16,708
it becomes argumented. Like, you

2788
01:27:16,714 –> 01:27:18,196
can argue that whether it is or

2789
01:27:18,218 –> 01:27:20,624
it isn’t or whether the illusion

2790
01:27:20,672 –> 01:27:21,830
exists or not.

2791
01:27:23,320 –> 01:27:25,428
So Stephen pinker, the writer of

2792
01:27:25,434 –> 01:27:27,360
Steven Pinker, who has written a

2793
01:27:27,370 –> 01:27:28,728
ton of different books about a

2794
01:27:28,734 –> 01:27:29,432
ton of different things,

2795
01:27:29,486 –> 01:27:31,144
everything from linguistics to

2796
01:27:31,262 –> 01:27:33,688
social anthropology, wrote a

2797
01:27:33,694 –> 01:27:35,592
book a few years ago called

2798
01:27:35,646 –> 01:27:37,016
enlightenment now the case for

2799
01:27:37,038 –> 01:27:39,164
Reason, Science, Humanism, and

2800
01:27:39,202 –> 01:27:39,900
Progress.

2801
01:27:40,560 –> 01:27:43,612
And he asserted in that book

2802
01:27:43,666 –> 01:27:43,884
that.

2803
01:27:43,922 –> 01:27:44,844
Everything is actually getting

2804
01:27:44,882 –> 01:27:46,236
demonstrably better.

2805
01:27:46,418 –> 01:27:47,596
And he went back and looked at.

2806
01:27:47,618 –> 01:27:49,436
Data, data on things like

2807
01:27:49,458 –> 01:27:51,608
violence and murders, data on

2808
01:27:51,634 –> 01:27:53,072
things like the number of state

2809
01:27:53,126 –> 01:27:54,896
sponsored wars that have

2810
01:27:54,918 –> 01:27:55,968
occurred over the course of

2811
01:27:55,974 –> 01:27:56,496
time, the number.

2812
01:27:56,518 –> 01:27:57,952
Of deaths in those state

2813
01:27:58,006 –> 01:28:00,080
sponsored shorts.

2814
01:28:00,500 –> 01:28:04,244
He looked at economic data and

2815
01:28:04,362 –> 01:28:06,790
who was living on a dollar a day

2816
01:28:07,800 –> 01:28:08,788
or not who was living on a.

2817
01:28:08,794 –> 01:28:10,790
Dollar a day, but how much

2818
01:28:11,400 –> 01:28:11,764
based.

2819
01:28:11,802 –> 01:28:14,784
On our equivalency, how poor

2820
01:28:14,832 –> 01:28:16,512
people were in the past versus

2821
01:28:16,576 –> 01:28:17,972
where they are where they are

2822
01:28:18,026 –> 01:28:19,864
now. And by the way, there are

2823
01:28:19,902 –> 01:28:21,076
massive leaps that have occurred

2824
01:28:21,108 –> 01:28:22,490
in the course of human history

2825
01:28:23,100 –> 01:28:25,336
at a massive talk about time at

2826
01:28:25,358 –> 01:28:27,496
a massive temporal scale. So one

2827
01:28:27,518 –> 01:28:29,436
of those great leaps was the

2828
01:28:29,458 –> 01:28:32,108
industrial revolution. Another

2829
01:28:32,194 –> 01:28:36,670
great leap was the move from

2830
01:28:37,360 –> 01:28:41,756
feudalism to medieval feudalism

2831
01:28:41,868 –> 01:28:45,424
to a more renaissance, middle

2832
01:28:45,462 –> 01:28:47,504
ages type mercantileism. Right.

2833
01:28:47,622 –> 01:28:48,956
That was another massive leap.

2834
01:28:48,988 –> 01:28:49,280
Right.

2835
01:28:49,350 –> 01:28:50,704
And by the way, he traces this

2836
01:28:50,742 –> 01:28:52,530
not just in the west, but also.

2837
01:28:53,080 –> 01:28:56,644
Globally, and he does, of

2838
01:28:56,682 –> 01:28:57,572
course, talk.

2839
01:28:57,626 –> 01:28:59,876
About how and this is one of the

2840
01:28:59,898 –> 01:29:01,780
challenges of writing a piece

2841
01:29:01,850 –> 01:29:02,470
of.

2842
01:29:03,240 –> 01:29:05,776
Writing a book that defends the

2843
01:29:05,818 –> 01:29:08,344
enlightenment, typically against

2844
01:29:08,382 –> 01:29:09,508
postmodernism.

2845
01:29:09,684 –> 01:29:10,836
And by the way, the postmodern

2846
01:29:10,868 –> 01:29:12,184
belief is that there is no

2847
01:29:12,222 –> 01:29:13,204
meaning, everything has gotten

2848
01:29:13,252 –> 01:29:16,056
worse, and we should tear the

2849
01:29:16,078 –> 01:29:17,604
whole thing down, deconstruct

2850
01:29:17,732 –> 01:29:19,788
the entire thing and have it

2851
01:29:19,794 –> 01:29:21,176
fall to the ground because we’re

2852
01:29:21,208 –> 01:29:23,116
stupid and we’re patriarchal and

2853
01:29:23,138 –> 01:29:24,780
we’re racist and we’re bigoted,

2854
01:29:25,200 –> 01:29:28,840
the usual things. And Pinker

2855
01:29:29,000 –> 01:29:30,428
stands in opposition to all of

2856
01:29:30,434 –> 01:29:31,704
that and says the Enlightenment

2857
01:29:31,752 –> 01:29:33,396
project is the best. And by the

2858
01:29:33,398 –> 01:29:34,384
way, the Enlightenment project,

2859
01:29:34,502 –> 01:29:36,480
he surmises or he puts together

2860
01:29:36,550 –> 01:29:39,648
as the project of rehuman reason

2861
01:29:39,734 –> 01:29:41,244
being used to make human beings

2862
01:29:41,292 –> 01:29:43,632
lives incrementally better. Did

2863
01:29:43,686 –> 01:29:45,068
climate change come along with

2864
01:29:45,094 –> 01:29:46,768
that? And the melting of ice

2865
01:29:46,784 –> 01:29:48,916
caps? Yeah, but now we have more

2866
01:29:48,938 –> 01:29:50,116
people out of poverty, so we can

2867
01:29:50,138 –> 01:29:50,964
actually do something about

2868
01:29:51,002 –> 01:29:55,476
that. Or did the ability for us

2869
01:29:55,498 –> 01:29:57,284
to industrialize at scale allow

2870
01:29:57,322 –> 01:29:58,356
World War II to be the most

2871
01:29:58,378 –> 01:29:59,476
horrific war that we’ve ever

2872
01:29:59,498 –> 01:30:01,236
fought in human history? Yeah,

2873
01:30:01,338 –> 01:30:02,996
but it also allowed us to have

2874
01:30:03,018 –> 01:30:04,084
babies, to go off and fight.

2875
01:30:04,122 –> 01:30:05,028
That war so we wouldn’t have to

2876
01:30:05,034 –> 01:30:08,830
have tyranny you. It.

2877
01:30:10,960 –> 01:30:12,204
Also gave way to more

2878
01:30:12,242 –> 01:30:12,856
democratic.

2879
01:30:12,888 –> 01:30:15,052
Countries in the world, along

2880
01:30:15,106 –> 01:30:15,976
with penicillin.

2881
01:30:16,008 –> 01:30:18,044
And a few other things that were

2882
01:30:18,082 –> 01:30:19,356
kind of important that I kind of

2883
01:30:19,378 –> 01:30:21,768
like, oh, by the way, I’m a fan

2884
01:30:21,784 –> 01:30:22,796
of enlightenment. I mean, I’m

2885
01:30:22,818 –> 01:30:24,208
necessarily a fan of man all the

2886
01:30:24,214 –> 01:30:25,904
time, but I am a fan of the

2887
01:30:25,942 –> 01:30:27,792
enlightenment. I do think that

2888
01:30:27,846 –> 01:30:29,984
collective human reason does

2889
01:30:30,022 –> 01:30:32,044
need to be need to be pushed.

2890
01:30:32,092 –> 01:30:33,776
And I do think that the

2891
01:30:33,798 –> 01:30:34,836
collective defense of the

2892
01:30:34,858 –> 01:30:35,828
Enlightenment is one of the

2893
01:30:35,834 –> 01:30:36,804
things that we’re doing on this

2894
01:30:36,842 –> 01:30:39,028
podcast. I am not a

2895
01:30:39,034 –> 01:30:41,124
postmodernist. I don’t believe

2896
01:30:41,162 –> 01:30:43,508
that the theories of

2897
01:30:43,514 –> 01:30:45,028
postmodernism have any hold. As

2898
01:30:45,034 –> 01:30:45,956
a matter of fact, I believe they

2899
01:30:45,978 –> 01:30:47,172
believe, I believe they lead to

2900
01:30:47,226 –> 01:30:49,228
a discourse in a meaning

2901
01:30:49,264 –> 01:30:53,176
discourse problem. But this

2902
01:30:53,198 –> 01:30:55,816
thing in Nature, right, the

2903
01:30:55,838 –> 01:30:57,316
journal Nature and again we’ll

2904
01:30:57,348 –> 01:30:58,824
have that link both to Steven

2905
01:30:58,872 –> 01:31:01,016
Pinker’s book and to the journal

2906
01:31:01,128 –> 01:31:02,300
in the show notes.

2907
01:31:02,640 –> 01:31:06,156
This idea that we believe that

2908
01:31:06,178 –> 01:31:06,664
morality.

2909
01:31:06,712 –> 01:31:09,868
Is declining for the last 70

2910
01:31:09,954 –> 01:31:10,590
years.

2911
01:31:10,960 –> 01:31:12,256
The question that I would have

2912
01:31:12,278 –> 01:31:12,416
for.

2913
01:31:12,438 –> 01:31:14,192
The journal Nature and maybe

2914
01:31:14,326 –> 01:31:15,824
it’s exposed in the study is why

2915
01:31:15,862 –> 01:31:17,680
do human beings believe this?

2916
01:31:17,830 –> 01:31:20,620
And beyond just the bias factor,

2917
01:31:20,700 –> 01:31:21,964
although that’s hugely

2918
01:31:22,012 –> 01:31:25,040
important, but why is that so

2919
01:31:25,110 –> 01:31:26,556
pervasive? And I think it’s

2920
01:31:26,588 –> 01:31:27,776
because I’m going to answer my

2921
01:31:27,798 –> 01:31:29,168
own question. I think it’s

2922
01:31:29,184 –> 01:31:30,624
pervasive because it’s easier

2923
01:31:30,672 –> 01:31:31,668
for human beings to believe a

2924
01:31:31,674 –> 01:31:32,676
negative than it is for them to

2925
01:31:32,698 –> 01:31:33,924
believe a positive. And this

2926
01:31:33,962 –> 01:31:35,204
gets back to the whole like,

2927
01:31:35,242 –> 01:31:36,676
nature of fallen man and all

2928
01:31:36,698 –> 01:31:37,396
that kind of stuff that

2929
01:31:37,418 –> 01:31:38,708
Augustine sort of laid the

2930
01:31:38,714 –> 01:31:39,984
groundwork for, laid the helm

2931
01:31:40,032 –> 01:31:42,612
for 1700 years ago.

2932
01:31:42,666 –> 01:31:43,270
Now.

2933
01:31:46,040 –> 01:31:47,612
There’S another piece that goes

2934
01:31:47,706 –> 01:31:49,356
with this. And like I said, we

2935
01:31:49,378 –> 01:31:50,268
were turning the corner. We want

2936
01:31:50,274 –> 01:31:51,564
to wrap up here. There’s another

2937
01:31:51,602 –> 01:31:52,636
piece that goes along with this.

2938
01:31:52,658 –> 01:31:53,696
And so I want to read I’m going

2939
01:31:53,698 –> 01:31:54,588
to go back to City of God. I

2940
01:31:54,594 –> 01:31:55,608
want to read our final selection

2941
01:31:55,624 –> 01:31:56,524
here because there’s another

2942
01:31:56,562 –> 01:31:57,036
piece that goes.

2943
01:31:57,058 –> 01:31:58,636
Along with this that I want to

2944
01:31:58,658 –> 01:31:59,470
touch on.

2945
01:32:00,100 –> 01:32:01,456
I think it’s very valuable for

2946
01:32:01,478 –> 01:32:03,216
us to understand when we think

2947
01:32:03,238 –> 01:32:06,096
about discourse around the

2948
01:32:06,118 –> 01:32:07,472
Enlightenment and around

2949
01:32:07,606 –> 01:32:09,984
postmodernism and even around

2950
01:32:10,102 –> 01:32:11,648
argumentation. So back to the

2951
01:32:11,654 –> 01:32:13,564
book, finally, the last section,

2952
01:32:13,612 –> 01:32:15,304
City of God, book four, chapter

2953
01:32:15,372 –> 01:32:17,268
ten. We’re going to read a

2954
01:32:17,274 –> 01:32:17,476
couple of.

2955
01:32:17,498 –> 01:32:21,108
Pages in this and then I’m

2956
01:32:21,114 –> 01:32:21,188
going.

2957
01:32:21,194 –> 01:32:22,612
To read a long section about

2958
01:32:22,666 –> 01:32:23,648
debate because I think there’s

2959
01:32:23,664 –> 01:32:24,436
some ideas in.

2960
01:32:24,458 –> 01:32:28,100
Here that need to be explored.

2961
01:32:28,600 –> 01:32:30,608
So book four, chapter ten, City

2962
01:32:30,634 –> 01:32:31,320
of God.

2963
01:32:31,470 –> 01:32:33,128
Why do the pagans give Juno to

2964
01:32:33,134 –> 01:32:34,216
Jupiter for wife to be called

2965
01:32:34,238 –> 01:32:35,816
sister and spouse? The reason is

2966
01:32:35,838 –> 01:32:36,936
they say that by tradition we

2967
01:32:36,958 –> 01:32:38,308
assume Jupiter to be the ether,

2968
01:32:38,404 –> 01:32:39,848
the upper air and Juno in the

2969
01:32:39,854 –> 01:32:40,648
lower air. And these two

2970
01:32:40,654 –> 01:32:42,090
elements are joined together.

2971
01:32:42,700 –> 01:32:44,236
The one above the other.

2972
01:32:44,418 –> 01:32:45,436
Then it follows that this

2973
01:32:45,458 –> 01:32:46,556
Jupiter is not the subject of

2974
01:32:46,578 –> 01:32:47,516
the statement, the whole

2975
01:32:47,538 –> 01:32:48,876
universe is full of Jupiter if.

2976
01:32:48,898 –> 01:32:50,604
Juno also fills some part of it,

2977
01:32:50,722 –> 01:32:52,056
or is it that each of them fills

2978
01:32:52,088 –> 01:32:52,284
both?

2979
01:32:52,322 –> 01:32:53,496
Elements in this married pair

2980
01:32:53,528 –> 01:32:54,956
are at the same time both in

2981
01:32:54,978 –> 01:32:55,404
both and.

2982
01:32:55,442 –> 01:32:57,324
In each, then why is the ether.

2983
01:32:57,372 –> 01:32:58,428
Assigned to Jupiter and the heir

2984
01:32:58,444 –> 01:32:59,148
to Juno?

2985
01:32:59,244 –> 01:33:00,496
And in any case the two of them

2986
01:33:00,518 –> 01:33:01,904
would be enough why?

2987
01:33:01,942 –> 01:33:03,168
A lot to see to Neptune and.

2988
01:33:03,174 –> 01:33:04,976
The Earth to Pluto, and they

2989
01:33:04,998 –> 01:33:05,136
must.

2990
01:33:05,158 –> 01:33:06,924
Not be left wifeless. So Salacia

2991
01:33:06,972 –> 01:33:08,220
is provided for Neptune,

2992
01:33:08,300 –> 01:33:10,300
prospenia for. Pluto, for it is

2993
01:33:10,310 –> 01:33:11,428
the lower part of the sky. The

2994
01:33:11,434 –> 01:33:13,236
air is, they say, occupied by

2995
01:33:13,258 –> 01:33:15,172
Juno. So Salacia has the lower

2996
01:33:15,226 –> 01:33:16,960
part of the sea and pro Serpina

2997
01:33:17,040 –> 01:33:17,444
the lower.

2998
01:33:17,482 –> 01:33:20,056
Parts of the earth. They try to

2999
01:33:20,078 –> 01:33:20,996
find ways to botch.

3000
01:33:21,028 –> 01:33:21,896
Together their fables, but

3001
01:33:21,918 –> 01:33:22,856
without success.

3002
01:33:23,038 –> 01:33:24,472
For if their account were true,

3003
01:33:24,526 –> 01:33:24,696
their.

3004
01:33:24,718 –> 01:33:26,216
Teachers of old time would have

3005
01:33:26,238 –> 01:33:27,544
spoken three elements, not four,

3006
01:33:27,582 –> 01:33:28,728
so as to distribute each of the

3007
01:33:28,734 –> 01:33:29,544
married pairs to their

3008
01:33:29,582 –> 01:33:30,788
particular element.

3009
01:33:30,964 –> 01:33:32,036
As it is, those teachers

3010
01:33:32,068 –> 01:33:32,936
undoubtedly asserted.

3011
01:33:32,968 –> 01:33:34,092
That Ether and air were

3012
01:33:34,146 –> 01:33:35,452
different elements. But water,

3013
01:33:35,506 –> 01:33:36,844
whether upper or lower, is still

3014
01:33:36,882 –> 01:33:38,584
just water. You may conceive

3015
01:33:38,632 –> 01:33:39,596
some difference, but not enough

3016
01:33:39,618 –> 01:33:41,070
to make it anything but water.

3017
01:33:41,920 –> 01:33:42,956
And in spite of all the

3018
01:33:42,978 –> 01:33:43,916
imaginable differences and

3019
01:33:43,938 –> 01:33:45,256
distinctions, lower earth cannot

3020
01:33:45,288 –> 01:33:48,184
be anything but earth. Observe

3021
01:33:48,232 –> 01:33:49,352
further that the whole material

3022
01:33:49,416 –> 01:33:50,524
universe is made up of the four

3023
01:33:50,562 –> 01:33:52,168
elements. Then when will Minerva

3024
01:33:52,184 –> 01:33:52,644
come in?

3025
01:33:52,722 –> 01:33:53,776
What will be her sphere?

3026
01:33:53,808 –> 01:33:54,628
What will she fill?

3027
01:33:54,714 –> 01:33:55,952
She was sent in the capital

3028
01:33:56,016 –> 01:33:56,196
with.

3029
01:33:56,218 –> 01:33:57,856
Both Jupiter and Juno, although

3030
01:33:57,888 –> 01:33:58,996
she was not the daughter of

3031
01:33:59,018 –> 01:34:00,528
both. If they say that Minerva

3032
01:34:00,544 –> 01:34:01,588
holds sway in the upper part of

3033
01:34:01,594 –> 01:34:02,176
the Ether.

3034
01:34:02,288 –> 01:34:03,504
And that this gave the poets

3035
01:34:03,552 –> 01:34:03,808
occasion.

3036
01:34:03,824 –> 01:34:04,928
To admit the story of her birth

3037
01:34:04,944 –> 01:34:06,308
from the head of Jupiter, why is

3038
01:34:06,314 –> 01:34:07,508
she not reputed the queen of the

3039
01:34:07,514 –> 01:34:08,536
gods on the ground, that she is

3040
01:34:08,558 –> 01:34:09,524
higher than Jupiter?

3041
01:34:09,652 –> 01:34:11,412
Is it because it was improper

3042
01:34:11,556 –> 01:34:11,816
to.

3043
01:34:11,838 –> 01:34:13,016
Place a daughter above her

3044
01:34:13,038 –> 01:34:13,716
father?

3045
01:34:13,908 –> 01:34:15,304
Then why was that equity not

3046
01:34:15,342 –> 01:34:15,636
observed.

3047
01:34:15,668 –> 01:34:17,112
In the relationship between

3048
01:34:17,166 –> 01:34:18,328
Jupiter and Saturn? Is it

3049
01:34:18,334 –> 01:34:19,684
because Saturn was conquered?

3050
01:34:19,812 –> 01:34:20,972
Then they fought, did they?

3051
01:34:21,026 –> 01:34:22,556
Certainly not. All that is

3052
01:34:22,578 –> 01:34:23,656
legendary gossip.

3053
01:34:23,768 –> 01:34:24,476
Very well.

3054
01:34:24,578 –> 01:34:25,816
Let us not believe the fables.

3055
01:34:25,848 –> 01:34:27,244
Let us have better ideas about

3056
01:34:27,282 –> 01:34:29,848
the gods. Then why is Jupiter’s

3057
01:34:29,864 –> 01:34:30,956
father not given at least an

3058
01:34:30,978 –> 01:34:32,076
equal place of honor, if not

3059
01:34:32,098 –> 01:34:33,224
higher? Because Saturn

3060
01:34:33,272 –> 01:34:35,164
represents duration of time. So

3061
01:34:35,202 –> 01:34:36,288
they worship time when they

3062
01:34:36,294 –> 01:34:37,488
worship Saturn. And the

3063
01:34:37,494 –> 01:34:38,524
implication is that Jupiter,

3064
01:34:38,572 –> 01:34:39,776
king of the gods, is a child of

3065
01:34:39,798 –> 01:34:40,320
time.

3066
01:34:40,470 –> 01:34:41,696
Is there anything improper in

3067
01:34:41,718 –> 01:34:42,236
calling Juno.

3068
01:34:42,268 –> 01:34:43,424
And Jupiter the children of time

3069
01:34:43,462 –> 01:34:44,688
if he is the sky and she is of

3070
01:34:44,694 –> 01:34:46,656
the earth? For undoubtedly sky

3071
01:34:46,688 –> 01:34:47,684
and earth are created things.

3072
01:34:47,722 –> 01:34:49,604
And Virgil is basing himself not

3073
01:34:49,642 –> 01:34:50,948
on poetical fictions but on the

3074
01:34:50,954 –> 01:34:52,516
writings of philosophers when he

3075
01:34:52,538 –> 01:34:54,832
says the omnipotent father Ether

3076
01:34:54,896 –> 01:34:56,436
all supreme, descends with

3077
01:34:56,458 –> 01:34:57,856
Fekken to showers upon the lap

3078
01:34:57,888 –> 01:34:58,464
of his glad.

3079
01:34:58,512 –> 01:35:01,716
Consort, upon the lap, that is,

3080
01:35:01,738 –> 01:35:01,828
of.

3081
01:35:01,834 –> 01:35:03,384
Tell US, or Terra. For here also

3082
01:35:03,422 –> 01:35:04,456
they are determined to have some

3083
01:35:04,478 –> 01:35:05,636
difference. And in the earth

3084
01:35:05,668 –> 01:35:06,916
itself they distinguish Terra,

3085
01:35:06,948 –> 01:35:08,856
Tellus and Telemo. And all these

3086
01:35:08,878 –> 01:35:10,024
gods are called by their special

3087
01:35:10,062 –> 01:35:11,236
names, assign their own separate

3088
01:35:11,268 –> 01:35:12,296
functions and worship at their

3089
01:35:12,318 –> 01:35:14,060
own rights, at their own altars.

3090
01:35:14,800 –> 01:35:16,188
The earth is also called the

3091
01:35:16,194 –> 01:35:16,984
mother of gods.

3092
01:35:17,032 –> 01:35:18,268
So the fictions of the poets are

3093
01:35:18,274 –> 01:35:19,516
more tolerable since it is not

3094
01:35:19,538 –> 01:35:20,636
in the poetry of the Romans but

3095
01:35:20,658 –> 01:35:21,896
in their sacred books that Juno

3096
01:35:21,928 –> 01:35:23,676
was found not only as sister and

3097
01:35:23,698 –> 01:35:24,156
spouse of.

3098
01:35:24,178 –> 01:35:25,948
Jupiter, but also as his mother.

3099
01:35:26,124 –> 01:35:27,488
They make out the same earth to.

3100
01:35:27,494 –> 01:35:28,924
Be Ceres and also Vesta,

3101
01:35:28,972 –> 01:35:30,108
although more often they claim

3102
01:35:30,124 –> 01:35:31,712
that Vesta is simply fire, fire

3103
01:35:31,766 –> 01:35:33,344
in the hearth without which

3104
01:35:33,382 –> 01:35:34,976
community cannot exist. And the

3105
01:35:34,998 –> 01:35:36,560
reason why virgins are by custom

3106
01:35:36,630 –> 01:35:37,956
consecrated to her service is

3107
01:35:37,978 –> 01:35:39,828
that fire, like virgin, like a

3108
01:35:39,834 –> 01:35:41,956
virgin, does not give birth. All

3109
01:35:41,978 –> 01:35:43,108
this inanity deserve to be

3110
01:35:43,114 –> 01:35:44,532
abolished and swept away by him

3111
01:35:44,586 –> 01:35:44,916
who was.

3112
01:35:44,938 –> 01:35:46,020
Born of a virgin.

3113
01:35:47,480 –> 01:35:48,836
Is it not insupportable that

3114
01:35:48,858 –> 01:35:50,216
while they ascribe to fire so

3115
01:35:50,238 –> 01:35:51,384
much honor and 1 may say,

3116
01:35:51,422 –> 01:35:53,156
purity, they are not ashamed

3117
01:35:53,188 –> 01:35:54,616
sometimes to identify Vesta with

3118
01:35:54,638 –> 01:35:56,248
Venus, thus making nonsense of

3119
01:35:56,254 –> 01:35:56,936
the virginity which.

3120
01:35:56,958 –> 01:35:59,272
Is honored in her attendance for

3121
01:35:59,326 –> 01:36:00,244
Vesta is Venus.

3122
01:36:00,292 –> 01:36:01,796
How could the virgins do her due

3123
01:36:01,828 –> 01:36:03,148
service by abstaining from the

3124
01:36:03,154 –> 01:36:05,084
works of Venus? Or are there two

3125
01:36:05,122 –> 01:36:06,588
Venuses, one a virgin and the

3126
01:36:06,594 –> 01:36:08,444
other a wife? Or rather three or

3127
01:36:08,562 –> 01:36:09,916
one for virgins, who is the same

3128
01:36:09,938 –> 01:36:11,164
as Vesta, one for married women,

3129
01:36:11,202 –> 01:36:12,380
one for harlots.

3130
01:36:12,960 –> 01:36:14,440
The last was the goddess to

3131
01:36:14,450 –> 01:36:14,636
whom.

3132
01:36:14,668 –> 01:36:15,888
The Phoenicians used to give a

3133
01:36:15,894 –> 01:36:16,976
present earned by the

3134
01:36:16,998 –> 01:36:18,764
prostitution of their daughters

3135
01:36:18,812 –> 01:36:19,776
before they gave them a

3136
01:36:19,798 –> 01:36:20,460
marriage.

3137
01:36:20,620 –> 01:36:22,156
Which of these is the lady wife

3138
01:36:22,188 –> 01:36:23,276
of Vulcan?

3139
01:36:23,468 –> 01:36:24,848
Certainly not the virgins, as

3140
01:36:24,854 –> 01:36:26,336
she is a husband. Not the

3141
01:36:26,358 –> 01:36:28,356
harlot. Perish the thought, we

3142
01:36:28,378 –> 01:36:29,796
must not seem to insult the son

3143
01:36:29,818 –> 01:36:31,104
of Juno and murderous fellow

3144
01:36:31,152 –> 01:36:31,728
worker.

3145
01:36:31,824 –> 01:36:33,376
Then we infer that Vulcan’s wife

3146
01:36:33,408 –> 01:36:33,556
was.

3147
01:36:33,578 –> 01:36:34,628
Concerned with married women.

3148
01:36:34,714 –> 01:36:35,956
I hope they will not imitate her

3149
01:36:35,978 –> 01:36:37,220
behavior with Mars.

3150
01:36:38,040 –> 01:36:39,456
There you go, back to fables

3151
01:36:39,488 –> 01:36:41,156
again. But what kind of justice

3152
01:36:41,188 –> 01:36:41,960
is this.

3153
01:36:42,110 –> 01:36:43,704
To be angry with us for talking.

3154
01:36:43,742 –> 01:36:45,316
Like this about their own gods

3155
01:36:45,348 –> 01:36:46,296
and not to be angry with

3156
01:36:46,318 –> 01:36:47,588
themselves for taking pleasure

3157
01:36:47,684 –> 01:36:48,776
in watching the god’s

3158
01:36:48,808 –> 01:36:50,424
depravities in the theaters.

3159
01:36:50,552 –> 01:36:52,524
And remember, incredible though

3160
01:36:52,562 –> 01:36:53,004
it would be.

3161
01:36:53,042 –> 01:36:54,172
Were it not proved quite

3162
01:36:54,226 –> 01:36:55,932
incontestably that those

3163
01:36:55,986 –> 01:36:57,176
representations of the god’s

3164
01:36:57,208 –> 01:36:58,412
disgrace were.

3165
01:36:58,466 –> 01:37:01,680
Instituted in honor of the gods.

3166
01:37:05,710 –> 01:37:07,946
That’s how you upend somebody

3167
01:37:08,048 –> 01:37:09,702
else. So let me quote

3168
01:37:09,766 –> 01:37:12,954
extensively from a substat I

3169
01:37:12,992 –> 01:37:14,746
follow occasionally, called the

3170
01:37:14,768 –> 01:37:16,566
Rational Male by a guy named

3171
01:37:16,598 –> 01:37:18,954
Rolo tomasi, by the way, not his

3172
01:37:18,992 –> 01:37:19,820
real name.

3173
01:37:20,750 –> 01:37:22,206
And I quote from him, and this.

3174
01:37:22,228 –> 01:37:23,338
May be helpful in understanding

3175
01:37:23,354 –> 01:37:24,526
what I just read there from

3176
01:37:24,548 –> 01:37:25,966
Augustine and understanding our

3177
01:37:25,988 –> 01:37:27,230
entire podcast.

3178
01:37:27,970 –> 01:37:29,502
This is from a recent blog post

3179
01:37:29,556 –> 01:37:32,366
he wrote, and I quote, think

3180
01:37:32,388 –> 01:37:32,574
about.

3181
01:37:32,612 –> 01:37:33,954
What a debate is and what it has

3182
01:37:33,992 –> 01:37:35,778
meant in the past. The nature of

3183
01:37:35,784 –> 01:37:36,898
the argument has changed a lot

3184
01:37:36,904 –> 01:37:38,286
over time. In the past, argument

3185
01:37:38,318 –> 01:37:39,342
took the form of classical

3186
01:37:39,406 –> 01:37:41,186
discourse. This wasn’t the back

3187
01:37:41,208 –> 01:37:42,694
and forth process we know today.

3188
01:37:42,812 –> 01:37:44,306
It was a rhetorical speech

3189
01:37:44,338 –> 01:37:46,118
intended to persuade it would be

3190
01:37:46,124 –> 01:37:47,126
for a single person. But

3191
01:37:47,148 –> 01:37:48,166
primarily the speech was

3192
01:37:48,188 –> 01:37:50,774
directed at an audience. After

3193
01:37:50,812 –> 01:37:52,146
classical discourse came modern

3194
01:37:52,178 –> 01:37:53,286
discourse. This was back and

3195
01:37:53,308 –> 01:37:54,346
forth process between two

3196
01:37:54,368 –> 01:37:55,098
debaters who took the

3197
01:37:55,104 –> 01:37:56,394
oppositional roles but

3198
01:37:56,432 –> 01:37:57,418
essentially engaged in a

3199
01:37:57,424 –> 01:37:58,042
cooperative process.

3200
01:37:58,096 –> 01:37:59,174
Whose goal was to establish

3201
01:37:59,222 –> 01:38:00,314
truth by.

3202
01:38:00,352 –> 01:38:01,882
Determining which cause, which

3203
01:38:01,936 –> 01:38:05,194
case was more persuasive. Then

3204
01:38:05,232 –> 01:38:06,954
came postmodern discourse. This

3205
01:38:06,992 –> 01:38:08,218
takes the form of a no holds

3206
01:38:08,234 –> 01:38:09,598
barred struggle to discredit not

3207
01:38:09,604 –> 01:38:09,774
only.

3208
01:38:09,812 –> 01:38:11,118
The other speaker’s position,

3209
01:38:11,284 –> 01:38:13,246
but the speaker himself. The

3210
01:38:13,268 –> 01:38:14,286
goal is not to prove the.

3211
01:38:14,308 –> 01:38:15,946
Opposition wrong, but to silence

3212
01:38:15,978 –> 01:38:17,490
it so that one’s own position

3213
01:38:17,560 –> 01:38:21,966
will dominate conversation. Thus

3214
01:38:22,158 –> 01:38:23,746
classical discourse intended to

3215
01:38:23,768 –> 01:38:25,026
persuade an audience. This is

3216
01:38:25,048 –> 01:38:27,134
important because modern

3217
01:38:27,182 –> 01:38:28,526
discourse intended to establish

3218
01:38:28,558 –> 01:38:30,210
a truth. By playing an advocate,

3219
01:38:30,290 –> 01:38:31,474
you have committed a logical

3220
01:38:31,522 –> 01:38:33,714
fallacy. Postmodern discourse

3221
01:38:33,762 –> 01:38:35,106
intended to establish your views

3222
01:38:35,138 –> 01:38:37,474
as a social standard via sheer

3223
01:38:37,522 –> 01:38:42,410
dominance. You are a liar. Most

3224
01:38:42,480 –> 01:38:43,626
arguments nowadays are

3225
01:38:43,648 –> 01:38:45,398
postmodern. What goes unnoticed

3226
01:38:45,414 –> 01:38:46,122
in the social media.

3227
01:38:46,176 –> 01:38:48,726
Age we’ve entered is we’ve

3228
01:38:48,758 –> 01:38:51,034
entered a post discourse age.

3229
01:38:51,232 –> 01:38:53,814
Argument itself is obsolete.

3230
01:38:53,942 –> 01:38:55,226
Arguments are no longer meant to

3231
01:38:55,248 –> 01:38:56,154
persuade. They no longer

3232
01:38:56,192 –> 01:38:57,246
establish truth, nor do they

3233
01:38:57,268 –> 01:38:58,126
determine whose views will

3234
01:38:58,148 –> 01:38:59,626
dominate the social discourse.

3235
01:38:59,738 –> 01:39:01,306
Persuasion requires a receptive

3236
01:39:01,338 –> 01:39:02,666
audience. Postmodern discourse

3237
01:39:02,698 –> 01:39:03,966
in the social media age has made

3238
01:39:03,988 –> 01:39:05,390
this largely impossible.

3239
01:39:06,050 –> 01:39:08,494
To establish truth is to test.

3240
01:39:08,692 –> 01:39:09,778
It’s not a contest of

3241
01:39:09,784 –> 01:39:11,246
theoretical constructs of logic

3242
01:39:11,278 –> 01:39:13,006
based upon belief sets whose

3243
01:39:13,038 –> 01:39:14,046
worldview will influence

3244
01:39:14,078 –> 01:39:14,866
thinking and language is

3245
01:39:14,888 –> 01:39:16,046
determined by how those ideas

3246
01:39:16,078 –> 01:39:16,980
spread themselves.

3247
01:39:17,350 –> 01:39:19,122
And whose repetition they

3248
01:39:19,176 –> 01:39:19,970
require.

3249
01:39:21,190 –> 01:39:22,818
Debate is no longer relevant

3250
01:39:22,834 –> 01:39:24,534
either as a method, as a means

3251
01:39:24,572 –> 01:39:26,470
of discovery or dominance.

3252
01:39:26,810 –> 01:39:27,426
Who wins?

3253
01:39:27,458 –> 01:39:28,854
The debate is not determined by

3254
01:39:28,892 –> 01:39:30,406
debating. It is determined for

3255
01:39:30,428 –> 01:39:31,946
forces entirely external to the

3256
01:39:31,968 –> 01:39:32,486
debate.

3257
01:39:32,598 –> 01:39:34,106
This means that arguing is no

3258
01:39:34,128 –> 01:39:36,374
longer empowering. It is merely

3259
01:39:36,422 –> 01:39:40,186
a means of entertainment. They

3260
01:39:40,208 –> 01:39:41,834
don’t want a definition of

3261
01:39:41,872 –> 01:39:44,206
objective truth. They want an

3262
01:39:44,228 –> 01:39:45,486
archetype they could agree with

3263
01:39:45,508 –> 01:39:48,846
or hate on to determine if.

3264
01:39:48,868 –> 01:39:50,446
You’Re their ideological team,

3265
01:39:50,548 –> 01:39:51,134
if you’re on.

3266
01:39:51,172 –> 01:39:53,614
Their ideological team or the

3267
01:39:53,652 –> 01:39:59,826
opposition. And I would add to

3268
01:39:59,848 –> 01:40:00,322
that close.

3269
01:40:00,376 –> 01:40:01,714
Quote, and I would add to that

3270
01:40:01,752 –> 01:40:03,442
in order to gain clout or

3271
01:40:03,496 –> 01:40:04,290
clicks.

3272
01:40:05,990 –> 01:40:10,142
It reminds me I had a teacher

3273
01:40:10,206 –> 01:40:11,918
when I was still in I think I’m

3274
01:40:11,934 –> 01:40:12,614
pretty sure it was still

3275
01:40:12,652 –> 01:40:13,798
elementary school when I was a

3276
01:40:13,804 –> 01:40:15,302
kid, that told me the difference

3277
01:40:15,356 –> 01:40:16,646
between right and wrong was the

3278
01:40:16,668 –> 01:40:19,302
majority. And social media has

3279
01:40:19,356 –> 01:40:21,786
really made that come to

3280
01:40:21,808 –> 01:40:26,298
fruition, right? I don’t know if

3281
01:40:26,304 –> 01:40:28,486
you’ve ever done that. I tend

3282
01:40:28,518 –> 01:40:30,186
not to actually get engaged on

3283
01:40:30,208 –> 01:40:34,406
social media with what’s

3284
01:40:34,438 –> 01:40:35,626
supposed to be debate, right?

3285
01:40:35,648 –> 01:40:36,954
But it ends up becoming

3286
01:40:37,082 –> 01:40:38,878
vilification, right? You make a

3287
01:40:38,884 –> 01:40:40,974
comment on somebody’s post and

3288
01:40:41,012 –> 01:40:43,038
all of a sudden 500 people go on

3289
01:40:43,044 –> 01:40:45,646
there and rip you apart. So now,

3290
01:40:45,828 –> 01:40:47,474
regardless of whether or not

3291
01:40:47,592 –> 01:40:49,266
your statement was right or

3292
01:40:49,288 –> 01:40:51,986
wrong or truthful or factful, if

3293
01:40:52,008 –> 01:40:53,794
you just don’t agree with these

3294
01:40:53,832 –> 01:40:55,646
500 people, you get vilified.

3295
01:40:55,758 –> 01:40:59,054
And now that post becomes some

3296
01:40:59,112 –> 01:41:01,654
sort of enshrinement of why the

3297
01:41:01,692 –> 01:41:03,400
person who posted it was right.

3298
01:41:05,530 –> 01:41:07,720
I just find it fascinating that

3299
01:41:08,250 –> 01:41:09,622
something that was said before

3300
01:41:09,676 –> 01:41:11,394
the Internet was even a thing,

3301
01:41:11,532 –> 01:41:17,514
because that’s how old I am. The

3302
01:41:17,552 –> 01:41:18,586
difference between right and

3303
01:41:18,608 –> 01:41:20,506
wrong is the majority. So if you

3304
01:41:20,528 –> 01:41:21,706
are part of the majority, then

3305
01:41:21,728 –> 01:41:23,094
you become right. That’s

3306
01:41:23,142 –> 01:41:24,646
basically because the minority

3307
01:41:24,678 –> 01:41:27,742
can be bullied into just going

3308
01:41:27,796 –> 01:41:32,366
away. And I think that’s I never

3309
01:41:32,388 –> 01:41:33,326
really put those two and two

3310
01:41:33,348 –> 01:41:34,174
together until you started

3311
01:41:34,212 –> 01:41:34,974
reading that. And I started

3312
01:41:35,012 –> 01:41:36,026
thinking about that statement

3313
01:41:36,058 –> 01:41:37,066
and that comment that she made,

3314
01:41:37,108 –> 01:41:38,386
that teacher made. And I was

3315
01:41:38,408 –> 01:41:40,514
like, Goddamn, we just

3316
01:41:40,552 –> 01:41:43,202
manifested this. We went from it

3317
01:41:43,256 –> 01:41:45,714
being a debate in Congress of

3318
01:41:45,752 –> 01:41:48,526
like, again, the Senate 51 votes

3319
01:41:48,558 –> 01:41:54,546
to 49 that could make create a

3320
01:41:54,568 –> 01:41:56,066
law and put it on the

3321
01:41:56,088 –> 01:41:57,654
President’s just to sign. And

3322
01:41:57,692 –> 01:41:58,934
whether it’s right or wrong is

3323
01:41:58,972 –> 01:42:00,498
just because it’s the majority.

3324
01:42:00,594 –> 01:42:02,262
And we went from that to social

3325
01:42:02,316 –> 01:42:04,358
media vilifying. Any individual

3326
01:42:04,524 –> 01:42:05,730
person that doesn’t believe what

3327
01:42:05,740 –> 01:42:07,450
these 500 people believe. And

3328
01:42:07,600 –> 01:42:09,466
it’s strange to me that she said

3329
01:42:09,488 –> 01:42:10,666
that with no such thing as the

3330
01:42:10,688 –> 01:42:12,234
internet, now all of a sudden we

3331
01:42:12,272 –> 01:42:15,318
have put that into some sort of

3332
01:42:15,424 –> 01:42:19,520
actuality in real life, not just

3333
01:42:20,210 –> 01:42:22,480
in a legal sense or in making

3334
01:42:23,410 –> 01:42:25,534
policy or whatever, but now with

3335
01:42:25,572 –> 01:42:27,106
anything we do, we can have the

3336
01:42:27,128 –> 01:42:28,786
same outcome. It’s kind of

3337
01:42:28,808 –> 01:42:30,100
insanity to me.

3338
01:42:32,630 –> 01:42:36,142
I wonder, are we at a structural

3339
01:42:36,206 –> 01:42:36,820
moment?

3340
01:42:38,470 –> 01:42:40,302
What I mean by structural moment

3341
01:42:40,456 –> 01:42:42,214
not pivotal. What I mean by

3342
01:42:42,252 –> 01:42:43,846
structural moment is this.

3343
01:42:44,028 –> 01:42:47,574
So on the one hand, you have

3344
01:42:47,612 –> 01:42:50,040
people like myself, right, who

3345
01:42:51,470 –> 01:42:54,970
still are Pache, Rolo, Tomasi,

3346
01:42:55,310 –> 01:42:57,290
and even Augustine.

3347
01:42:57,630 –> 01:43:00,582
I still believe in classical

3348
01:43:00,646 –> 01:43:02,746
discourse of a speech as he

3349
01:43:02,768 –> 01:43:05,134
framed it here. I also still

3350
01:43:05,172 –> 01:43:06,686
believe in modern discourse. I

3351
01:43:06,708 –> 01:43:07,982
still believe in that. I believe

3352
01:43:08,036 –> 01:43:10,366
in the Gore Vidal, william F.

3353
01:43:10,388 –> 01:43:13,822
Buckley debate idea. I still

3354
01:43:13,876 –> 01:43:16,446
believe in the City of God,

3355
01:43:16,548 –> 01:43:18,830
augustinian, I’m going to write

3356
01:43:18,900 –> 01:43:20,306
this thing and you’re going to

3357
01:43:20,328 –> 01:43:20,754
deal with.

3358
01:43:20,792 –> 01:43:24,514
It kind of idea. I still believe

3359
01:43:24,552 –> 01:43:24,866
in that.

3360
01:43:24,888 –> 01:43:26,338
That’s why we do this podcast in

3361
01:43:26,344 –> 01:43:27,940
the way that we do it, right?

3362
01:43:28,890 –> 01:43:30,166
I’m putting my money where my

3363
01:43:30,188 –> 01:43:33,926
mouth is. I don’t engage in

3364
01:43:33,948 –> 01:43:35,878
postmodern discourse. If you

3365
01:43:35,884 –> 01:43:37,686
have something to say to me on

3366
01:43:37,708 –> 01:43:41,474
the internet about some episode

3367
01:43:41,522 –> 01:43:43,146
that I did where you found a

3368
01:43:43,168 –> 01:43:44,954
fence, you better send me an

3369
01:43:44,992 –> 01:43:45,626
email.

3370
01:43:45,808 –> 01:43:47,798
And it better be well written.

3371
01:43:47,974 –> 01:43:49,786
Otherwise I don’t respond to

3372
01:43:49,808 –> 01:43:51,770
flames. I block and report

3373
01:43:51,840 –> 01:43:55,686
people or accounts. I just don’t

3374
01:43:55,718 –> 01:43:57,034
do it. And part of that goes

3375
01:43:57,072 –> 01:43:57,366
back to.

3376
01:43:57,408 –> 01:43:59,354
Just sort of like when I began.

3377
01:43:59,402 –> 01:44:00,638
Really putting stuff out on the

3378
01:44:00,644 –> 01:44:01,598
Internet, putting content out on

3379
01:44:01,604 –> 01:44:03,840
the internet, I had to decide if

3380
01:44:04,610 –> 01:44:07,166
Rollerguys 60 4@yahoo.com was

3381
01:44:07,188 –> 01:44:07,918
really somebody that I was

3382
01:44:07,924 –> 01:44:08,046
going.

3383
01:44:08,068 –> 01:44:09,874
To be listening to. Do I really

3384
01:44:09,912 –> 01:44:11,746
care about your opinion? And the

3385
01:44:11,768 –> 01:44:14,382
answer was no, actually I don’t.

3386
01:44:14,526 –> 01:44:16,958
But I do really care about Tom’s

3387
01:44:16,974 –> 01:44:19,026
opinion. So if Tom sends me an

3388
01:44:19,048 –> 01:44:20,066
email that says, hey, dude, you

3389
01:44:20,088 –> 01:44:21,186
missed the mark and here’s the

3390
01:44:21,208 –> 01:44:21,770
ways you missed.

3391
01:44:21,790 –> 01:44:23,766
The mark, I’m going to take that

3392
01:44:23,788 –> 01:44:24,594
seriously.

3393
01:44:24,722 –> 01:44:28,059
I would call you just going to

3394
01:44:28,059 –> 01:44:28,726
call me or you’re going to text

3395
01:44:28,748 –> 01:44:31,190
me or whatever. Yeah, okay. Or

3396
01:44:31,340 –> 01:44:32,406
anybody else that we know

3397
01:44:32,428 –> 01:44:33,526
mutually, right? Like I could

3398
01:44:33,548 –> 01:44:35,174
name any of any of those people.

3399
01:44:35,292 –> 01:44:35,670
Fine.

3400
01:44:35,740 –> 01:44:36,826
Send me an email. Send me a text

3401
01:44:36,848 –> 01:44:37,498
message. We will have a

3402
01:44:37,504 –> 01:44:38,186
conversation, we’ll have a

3403
01:44:38,208 –> 01:44:39,478
nuanced conversation and we’ll

3404
01:44:39,494 –> 01:44:40,778
get to the bottom of it, right?

3405
01:44:40,864 –> 01:44:41,162
Sure.

3406
01:44:41,216 –> 01:44:44,426
And I think that’s what we’re

3407
01:44:44,458 –> 01:44:46,106
missing in a social clout driven

3408
01:44:46,138 –> 01:44:47,982
age is the nuance. And that

3409
01:44:48,036 –> 01:44:49,546
drives me absolutely nuts

3410
01:44:49,578 –> 01:44:51,200
because most problems.

3411
01:44:53,090 –> 01:44:54,554
Have simple solutions.

3412
01:44:54,602 –> 01:44:55,822
I fundamentally believe this.

3413
01:44:55,876 –> 01:44:56,802
Most problems have simple

3414
01:44:56,856 –> 01:44:58,594
solutions, but the.

3415
01:44:58,632 –> 01:45:01,966
Problem itself has to be nuanced

3416
01:45:01,998 –> 01:45:05,250
has to be believed and clarified

3417
01:45:06,390 –> 01:45:06,946
so that.

3418
01:45:06,968 –> 01:45:08,162
We can know what we’re actually

3419
01:45:08,216 –> 01:45:09,346
talking about. But if we’re not

3420
01:45:09,368 –> 01:45:10,318
interested in that, if we’re

3421
01:45:10,334 –> 01:45:11,922
just chasing clout and clicks.

3422
01:45:12,066 –> 01:45:12,982
That’S a real problem.

3423
01:45:13,036 –> 01:45:14,486
And I wonder if we are at.

3424
01:45:14,508 –> 01:45:17,734
A structural tipping point where

3425
01:45:17,772 –> 01:45:18,258
we’re tipping.

3426
01:45:18,274 –> 01:45:19,766
Into something else, or if this

3427
01:45:19,788 –> 01:45:25,846
is just a moment where all of us

3428
01:45:25,868 –> 01:45:27,480
who remember the old way.

3429
01:45:30,010 –> 01:45:30,838
Are just.

3430
01:45:30,924 –> 01:45:33,334
Sort of being put back on our

3431
01:45:33,372 –> 01:45:34,886
heels kind of a little bit for a

3432
01:45:34,908 –> 01:45:35,480
moment.

3433
01:45:36,030 –> 01:45:37,450
And don’t worry.

3434
01:45:39,950 –> 01:45:41,606
I remember watching Mike Tyson

3435
01:45:41,638 –> 01:45:44,858
fight back in the day, and it

3436
01:45:44,864 –> 01:45:45,766
wasn’t the Evander Holyfield

3437
01:45:45,798 –> 01:45:45,898
fight.

3438
01:45:45,904 –> 01:45:47,126
I believe he fought he fought

3439
01:45:47,158 –> 01:45:48,634
Riddick Bow, right? Yeah.

3440
01:45:48,672 –> 01:45:50,538
Ridic bow fight. Yeah. And I

3441
01:45:50,544 –> 01:45:51,386
remember watching it with my.

3442
01:45:51,408 –> 01:45:54,590
Father and Ridic Bo rocked him

3443
01:45:54,660 –> 01:45:54,846
and.

3444
01:45:54,868 –> 01:45:56,046
He went back on his heels a

3445
01:45:56,068 –> 01:45:56,750
little bit.

3446
01:45:56,900 –> 01:46:01,214
But I mean, he’s Mike Tyson, so.

3447
01:46:01,332 –> 01:46:02,818
Like, there you go. And most of

3448
01:46:02,824 –> 01:46:04,018
postmodernism, most of

3449
01:46:04,024 –> 01:46:04,194
everything.

3450
01:46:04,232 –> 01:46:05,410
That goes on in social media,

3451
01:46:05,480 –> 01:46:08,686
it’s Ridic Bow. I mean, that’s

3452
01:46:08,718 –> 01:46:11,890
okay, but I’m Mike Tyson.

3453
01:46:14,790 –> 01:46:16,274
I’ve got the weight of 1100

3454
01:46:16,312 –> 01:46:18,438
pages and 1700 years behind me.

3455
01:46:18,444 –> 01:46:19,638
How are you going to beat that?

3456
01:46:19,804 –> 01:46:20,518
Right?

3457
01:46:20,684 –> 01:46:22,486
I wonder, as you said, that, I

3458
01:46:22,508 –> 01:46:23,878
started wondering in my brain. I

3459
01:46:23,884 –> 01:46:25,286
wonder if every generation has

3460
01:46:25,308 –> 01:46:29,066
had that moment because as we

3461
01:46:29,088 –> 01:46:31,754
talked about before, I read the

3462
01:46:31,792 –> 01:46:33,174
study where every generation

3463
01:46:33,222 –> 01:46:34,394
thinks the generation behind

3464
01:46:34,432 –> 01:46:35,882
them is less intelligent, when

3465
01:46:35,936 –> 01:46:37,338
in fact they’re not. But I

3466
01:46:37,344 –> 01:46:39,542
wonder if that intelligence

3467
01:46:39,606 –> 01:46:41,946
level hits a point where it puts

3468
01:46:41,978 –> 01:46:43,294
that generation back on its

3469
01:46:43,332 –> 01:46:45,726
heels. I’m kind of curious about

3470
01:46:45,748 –> 01:46:46,814
this. I think somebody should

3471
01:46:46,852 –> 01:46:48,446
check in. Somebody smarter than

3472
01:46:48,468 –> 01:46:50,542
me should really look into this

3473
01:46:50,676 –> 01:46:52,240
and try to figure that out

3474
01:46:52,850 –> 01:46:54,974
again. If there’s a rinse and

3475
01:46:55,012 –> 01:46:56,386
repeat here, if this is

3476
01:46:56,408 –> 01:46:58,770
happening pretty consistently,

3477
01:46:59,110 –> 01:47:00,274
like I said to you a few minutes

3478
01:47:00,312 –> 01:47:02,910
ago, millennials are turning 40.

3479
01:47:03,080 –> 01:47:05,446
We have millennials turning 40.

3480
01:47:05,628 –> 01:47:08,406
They can no longer subscribe to

3481
01:47:08,428 –> 01:47:10,022
the don’t trust anybody over 30

3482
01:47:10,076 –> 01:47:11,266
thing because that includes

3483
01:47:11,298 –> 01:47:13,202
themselves. So that generation,

3484
01:47:13,266 –> 01:47:16,054
that kind of I won’t say they

3485
01:47:16,092 –> 01:47:17,994
started it, but they really put

3486
01:47:18,032 –> 01:47:20,394
the power behind it and now on

3487
01:47:20,432 –> 01:47:23,386
their heels, right, because of

3488
01:47:23,408 –> 01:47:24,746
something. So I wonder I don’t

3489
01:47:24,768 –> 01:47:27,146
know when you said that, putting

3490
01:47:27,248 –> 01:47:29,326
our generation on our heels, I

3491
01:47:29,348 –> 01:47:31,194
wonder if there’s some validity

3492
01:47:31,242 –> 01:47:32,926
to that, but more so from a

3493
01:47:32,948 –> 01:47:36,160
structure of a cyclical thing

3494
01:47:37,010 –> 01:47:38,558
that happens pretty much every

3495
01:47:38,644 –> 01:47:40,654
now, then let’s go one level

3496
01:47:40,692 –> 01:47:42,974
deeper to that and say, is that

3497
01:47:43,012 –> 01:47:44,310
tipping point? Has the tipping

3498
01:47:44,330 –> 01:47:46,254
point moved? Did the greatest

3499
01:47:46,302 –> 01:47:48,194
generation of all time hit it at

3500
01:47:48,232 –> 01:47:50,146
60 and then the baby boomers hit

3501
01:47:50,168 –> 01:47:52,066
it at 50? And the Gen Xers hit

3502
01:47:52,088 –> 01:47:53,806
it at 40, and the millennials

3503
01:47:53,838 –> 01:47:54,290
hit it.

3504
01:47:54,360 –> 01:47:55,238
You know what I’m saying?

3505
01:47:55,324 –> 01:47:59,698
I wonder if there’s some there’s

3506
01:47:59,714 –> 01:48:01,160
a research project here.

3507
01:48:02,410 –> 01:48:03,826
I agree. And maybe the journal

3508
01:48:03,858 –> 01:48:04,806
Nature, maybe we should reach

3509
01:48:04,828 –> 01:48:07,080
out to them. We should have them

3510
01:48:08,650 –> 01:48:10,326
on the podcast from them about

3511
01:48:10,348 –> 01:48:11,426
how we’re not immoral to climb.

3512
01:48:11,458 –> 01:48:12,554
Maybe they can sort of answer

3513
01:48:12,672 –> 01:48:14,058
some of that or extrapolate some

3514
01:48:14,064 –> 01:48:16,602
of those ideas out from that

3515
01:48:16,656 –> 01:48:17,938
study, because I think there’s

3516
01:48:17,974 –> 01:48:19,774
something parallel to what they

3517
01:48:19,812 –> 01:48:21,422
did there and what we’re talking

3518
01:48:21,476 –> 01:48:22,560
about. Right.

3519
01:48:24,290 –> 01:48:26,814
I also wonder if and this gets.

3520
01:48:26,852 –> 01:48:28,800
Back to that old idea that

3521
01:48:29,330 –> 01:48:32,106
Augustine and Thomas Aquinas

3522
01:48:32,138 –> 01:48:33,534
with his Suma Theologica, which

3523
01:48:33,572 –> 01:48:34,814
we won’t cover on the podcast

3524
01:48:34,862 –> 01:48:36,338
because it’s 14 volumes. It

3525
01:48:36,344 –> 01:48:38,114
would be three years. It’s not

3526
01:48:38,152 –> 01:48:39,762
going to happen. Thank you,

3527
01:48:39,816 –> 01:48:40,786
everybody, for reaching out to

3528
01:48:40,808 –> 01:48:41,998
me about Suma theologica.

3529
01:48:42,014 –> 01:48:43,218
I’m aware of it.

3530
01:48:43,384 –> 01:48:45,862
Thank you. Man spent an entire

3531
01:48:45,916 –> 01:48:46,978
lifetime writing it. Thomas

3532
01:48:46,994 –> 01:48:49,350
Aquinas did, god bless him, but

3533
01:48:49,500 –> 01:48:50,998
we’re not doing that. I don’t

3534
01:48:51,004 –> 01:48:52,120
have that kind of will.

3535
01:48:53,210 –> 01:48:54,326
But books like that,

3536
01:48:54,348 –> 01:48:55,266
shakespeare, which we’ve.

3537
01:48:55,298 –> 01:48:57,318
Covered on them, we’ve covered

3538
01:48:57,334 –> 01:48:59,386
on the podcast, the Bible, which

3539
01:48:59,408 –> 01:49:00,086
we’ll be covering.

3540
01:49:00,118 –> 01:49:02,374
This month again, those books

3541
01:49:02,422 –> 01:49:03,386
sit at.

3542
01:49:03,408 –> 01:49:04,486
The basement of Western

3543
01:49:04,518 –> 01:49:05,626
civilization. They’re at the

3544
01:49:05,648 –> 01:49:06,646
cornerstone of Western

3545
01:49:06,678 –> 01:49:08,778
civilization, and they do create

3546
01:49:08,864 –> 01:49:10,710
a by their mere existence,

3547
01:49:10,870 –> 01:49:12,266
whether you like the content or

3548
01:49:12,288 –> 01:49:14,234
not, is in irrelevancy. By their

3549
01:49:14,272 –> 01:49:17,770
mere existence, they do create a

3550
01:49:17,840 –> 01:49:19,274
framework of rhetoric and

3551
01:49:19,312 –> 01:49:22,254
argumentation and debate

3552
01:49:22,382 –> 01:49:24,754
discourse right. That people can

3553
01:49:24,792 –> 01:49:29,666
engage in. And maybe we’re at

3554
01:49:29,688 –> 01:49:30,610
the end of.

3555
01:49:30,680 –> 01:49:31,778
And this is where maybe I take a

3556
01:49:31,784 –> 01:49:33,826
little hope. Maybe we’re at the

3557
01:49:33,848 –> 01:49:34,306
end of the.

3558
01:49:34,328 –> 01:49:36,190
Whole Nietzsche and experiment

3559
01:49:36,270 –> 01:49:37,558
where there is no God and there

3560
01:49:37,564 –> 01:49:38,726
is no truth and there is no

3561
01:49:38,748 –> 01:49:39,366
nothing.

3562
01:49:39,548 –> 01:49:41,366
And maybe that rocked us back in

3563
01:49:41,388 –> 01:49:44,054
the west for 100 years, maybe

3564
01:49:44,092 –> 01:49:46,326
120, but I think maybe we’re at

3565
01:49:46,348 –> 01:49:46,438
the.

3566
01:49:46,444 –> 01:49:47,686
End of that because there has to

3567
01:49:47,708 –> 01:49:48,280
be.

3568
01:49:49,150 –> 01:49:50,458
I’ll frame it this way.

3569
01:49:50,544 –> 01:49:52,454
The Empire built by Augustine

3570
01:49:52,502 –> 01:49:54,506
and Shakespeare and Aquinas and

3571
01:49:54,528 –> 01:49:56,666
the Bible and Austin and all of

3572
01:49:56,688 –> 01:49:57,238
these people that we’ve.

3573
01:49:57,254 –> 01:49:59,402
Read on the podcast, the Empire

3574
01:49:59,466 –> 01:50:01,280
built by them will strike back,

3575
01:50:02,370 –> 01:50:02,906
and there’s.

3576
01:50:02,938 –> 01:50:04,126
A lot of weight behind that

3577
01:50:04,148 –> 01:50:04,910
empire.

3578
01:50:05,650 –> 01:50:07,690
They got Galaxy class cruisers,

3579
01:50:07,770 –> 01:50:09,086
and they’re going to show up,

3580
01:50:09,188 –> 01:50:10,154
and the Rebels.

3581
01:50:10,202 –> 01:50:13,426
Lose in this one. That’s where

3582
01:50:13,448 –> 01:50:14,578
the Star Wars analogy stops. The

3583
01:50:14,584 –> 01:50:18,366
Rebels lose, the Empire wins,

3584
01:50:18,558 –> 01:50:24,494
because there’s a lot of weapons

3585
01:50:24,542 –> 01:50:26,694
to bring to bear. And if you

3586
01:50:26,732 –> 01:50:28,760
eliminate that structure, then.

3587
01:50:29,770 –> 01:50:30,886
How do you talk about the

3588
01:50:30,908 –> 01:50:32,550
fundamental nature of reality?

3589
01:50:32,970 –> 01:50:34,386
Or even just how do you socially

3590
01:50:34,418 –> 01:50:35,638
negotiate across time any of the

3591
01:50:35,644 –> 01:50:36,454
things we’ve talked about today

3592
01:50:36,492 –> 01:50:37,722
on the podcast? How do you do

3593
01:50:37,776 –> 01:50:39,434
any of that without having some

3594
01:50:39,472 –> 01:50:41,050
context of shared meaning?

3595
01:50:41,630 –> 01:50:45,994
And you can’t. All right, I

3596
01:50:46,032 –> 01:50:47,146
think we’ve covered a few

3597
01:50:47,168 –> 01:50:47,798
things.

3598
01:50:47,984 –> 01:50:49,406
Anything you’d like to leave for

3599
01:50:49,428 –> 01:50:49,934
leaders about?

3600
01:50:49,972 –> 01:50:51,662
Stand on the path? Any last

3601
01:50:51,716 –> 01:50:52,880
words, Tom?

3602
01:50:54,850 –> 01:50:55,566
We kind of got real

3603
01:50:55,588 –> 01:50:57,614
philosophical today. We really

3604
01:50:57,652 –> 01:50:59,226
did, didn’t deeply

3605
01:50:59,258 –> 01:51:00,270
philosophical.

3606
01:51:00,690 –> 01:51:04,286
No. Again, I’ve been on this

3607
01:51:04,308 –> 01:51:05,906
with you I don’t even know how

3608
01:51:05,928 –> 01:51:07,874
many times at this point. I love

3609
01:51:07,912 –> 01:51:09,154
being on this podcast with you

3610
01:51:09,192 –> 01:51:11,166
because I think it really brings

3611
01:51:11,198 –> 01:51:13,106
out all the old phrases that I

3612
01:51:13,128 –> 01:51:14,626
remember when I was a kid and

3613
01:51:14,648 –> 01:51:15,838
all the things I’ve been told

3614
01:51:15,944 –> 01:51:17,366
that I didn’t even realize that

3615
01:51:17,388 –> 01:51:18,678
I was putting into practice, but

3616
01:51:18,684 –> 01:51:22,040
I was putting into practice. No,

3617
01:51:23,930 –> 01:51:25,720
I think it boils down to

3618
01:51:26,330 –> 01:51:27,706
leadership, boils down to a

3619
01:51:27,728 –> 01:51:30,234
simple thing of if you are true

3620
01:51:30,272 –> 01:51:31,530
to yourself and treat people

3621
01:51:31,600 –> 01:51:34,006
with at the bare minimum

3622
01:51:34,198 –> 01:51:36,266
respect, you’ll figure some

3623
01:51:36,288 –> 01:51:37,930
stuff out even on your own. But

3624
01:51:38,000 –> 01:51:39,498
there are plenty of books out

3625
01:51:39,504 –> 01:51:41,020
there to read, there’s plenty of

3626
01:51:41,490 –> 01:51:43,374
people like yourself to reach

3627
01:51:43,412 –> 01:51:45,374
out to and talk to about fine

3628
01:51:45,412 –> 01:51:47,550
tuning it. You certainly can do

3629
01:51:47,620 –> 01:51:49,086
more work with yourself and fine

3630
01:51:49,108 –> 01:51:50,078
tune yourself and become a

3631
01:51:50,084 –> 01:51:51,054
better leader than you are

3632
01:51:51,092 –> 01:51:52,818
today. And if anybody tells you

3633
01:51:52,904 –> 01:51:54,178
that they’re at the pinnacle of

3634
01:51:54,184 –> 01:51:55,090
their life and they’re perfect,

3635
01:51:55,160 –> 01:51:57,666
they’re lying because you should

3636
01:51:57,688 –> 01:52:00,002
be literally learning this stuff

3637
01:52:00,056 –> 01:52:03,698
till the day you die. But no, I

3638
01:52:03,704 –> 01:52:04,642
think that there’s a starting

3639
01:52:04,696 –> 01:52:05,826
point there that everybody is

3640
01:52:05,848 –> 01:52:08,166
capable of, which is be true to

3641
01:52:08,188 –> 01:52:09,350
yourself and be a good person

3642
01:52:09,420 –> 01:52:10,726
and treat people with that

3643
01:52:10,748 –> 01:52:12,678
minimum respect. And some of

3644
01:52:12,684 –> 01:52:13,846
this stuff you’ll figure out as

3645
01:52:13,868 –> 01:52:16,854
you go. But again, like I said,

3646
01:52:16,892 –> 01:52:18,154
with podcasts like this

3647
01:52:18,192 –> 01:52:19,626
available and books are

3648
01:52:19,648 –> 01:52:21,898
available and people that are

3649
01:52:21,904 –> 01:52:22,938
really good coaches and out

3650
01:52:22,944 –> 01:52:24,474
there, you can certainly fine.

3651
01:52:24,512 –> 01:52:26,106
Tune it a little bit better as

3652
01:52:26,128 –> 01:52:30,814
you go. I agree. And I would add

3653
01:52:30,852 –> 01:52:37,694
that it doesn’t hurt to at least

3654
01:52:37,732 –> 01:52:40,362
have a passing understanding of

3655
01:52:40,436 –> 01:52:44,014
the nature of how persuasion.

3656
01:52:44,062 –> 01:52:45,614
And argumentation and discourse,

3657
01:52:45,662 –> 01:52:47,362
which is just conversation, is

3658
01:52:47,416 –> 01:52:51,182
constructed. I do fundamentally

3659
01:52:51,246 –> 01:52:52,786
believe that the art of

3660
01:52:52,808 –> 01:52:54,286
conversation is being eroded.

3661
01:52:54,318 –> 01:52:55,506
But human beings, it’ll never

3662
01:52:55,528 –> 01:52:56,454
fully go away because human

3663
01:52:56,492 –> 01:52:57,174
beings can’t get away.

3664
01:52:57,212 –> 01:52:58,934
From it because we need it.

3665
01:52:59,132 –> 01:53:01,142
It’s too much embedded in us.

3666
01:53:01,276 –> 01:53:03,046
And 20 to 30 years of

3667
01:53:03,068 –> 01:53:04,486
smartphones are not going to

3668
01:53:04,508 –> 01:53:07,114
overcome millions of years of

3669
01:53:07,152 –> 01:53:09,546
evolution or if you’re not an

3670
01:53:09,568 –> 01:53:11,402
evolutionist, thousands of years

3671
01:53:11,456 –> 01:53:12,970
of human civilization.

3672
01:53:15,390 –> 01:53:17,340
There’s too much there. There

3673
01:53:18,290 –> 01:53:20,606
the foundation. The concrete is

3674
01:53:20,628 –> 01:53:24,046
poured too deep for leaders. You

3675
01:53:24,068 –> 01:53:25,742
have a responsibility to know

3676
01:53:25,796 –> 01:53:27,658
how to construct a conversation,

3677
01:53:27,834 –> 01:53:29,886
how to persuade, how to

3678
01:53:29,908 –> 01:53:31,066
communicate and how to engage.

3679
01:53:31,098 –> 01:53:32,626
In discourse beyond merely just

3680
01:53:32,648 –> 01:53:33,778
telling people what to do,

3681
01:53:33,864 –> 01:53:35,314
barking out a few orders and

3682
01:53:35,352 –> 01:53:36,930
expecting them to be obeyed.

3683
01:53:38,230 –> 01:53:39,534
Sometimes you’ve got to convince

3684
01:53:39,582 –> 01:53:40,180
people.

3685
01:53:41,110 –> 01:53:43,506
Sometimes you have to provide a

3686
01:53:43,528 –> 01:53:44,994
structure so that people’s faith

3687
01:53:45,042 –> 01:53:46,002
can be rewarded.

3688
01:53:46,066 –> 01:53:48,342
To paraphrase from Bad Man

3689
01:53:48,396 –> 01:53:50,674
Begins or maybe it was a dark

3690
01:53:50,722 –> 01:53:53,638
night, it doesn’t matter. It’s a

3691
01:53:53,644 –> 01:53:54,454
really good line.

3692
01:53:54,572 –> 01:53:55,978
I’m a sucker for a good turn of

3693
01:53:55,984 –> 01:53:57,500
phrase, as you all know.

3694
01:53:59,630 –> 01:54:02,826
I also think that morality may

3695
01:54:02,848 –> 01:54:07,194
not be in decline, but there is

3696
01:54:07,232 –> 01:54:07,578
definitely.

3697
01:54:07,664 –> 01:54:09,546
A shift going on. And if you can

3698
01:54:09,568 –> 01:54:10,778
feel it in the zeitgeist, if you

3699
01:54:10,784 –> 01:54:11,226
could feel it.

3700
01:54:11,248 –> 01:54:13,326
In your well, I’m going to use.

3701
01:54:13,348 –> 01:54:14,318
The word that Augustine would

3702
01:54:14,324 –> 01:54:15,246
use. If you could feel it in

3703
01:54:15,268 –> 01:54:15,406
your.

3704
01:54:15,428 –> 01:54:16,926
Soul, that’s something to pay

3705
01:54:16,948 –> 01:54:19,578
attention to. That’s an alarm

3706
01:54:19,594 –> 01:54:20,330
bell.

3707
01:54:20,490 –> 01:54:21,786
It’s indicating that there’s

3708
01:54:21,818 –> 01:54:23,706
something that you have missed

3709
01:54:23,738 –> 01:54:24,974
as a leader that you need to fix

3710
01:54:25,012 –> 01:54:26,146
or some way in which you have

3711
01:54:26,168 –> 01:54:27,502
wandered off the path.

3712
01:54:27,646 –> 01:54:28,946
And now you need to figure out.

3713
01:54:28,968 –> 01:54:30,274
How to get back on it, not just

3714
01:54:30,312 –> 01:54:31,874
for yourself and for your

3715
01:54:31,912 –> 01:54:33,238
community, but also for the

3716
01:54:33,244 –> 01:54:35,826
people that you lead. Hopefully

3717
01:54:35,858 –> 01:54:37,046
this podcast can help you do.

3718
01:54:37,068 –> 01:54:40,470
That during this month of June

3719
01:54:41,450 –> 01:54:41,814
and.

3720
01:54:41,852 –> 01:54:43,494
Every other month that will come

3721
01:54:43,532 –> 01:54:46,726
afterward. I want to thank Tom

3722
01:54:46,748 –> 01:54:48,150
Libby for coming on the podcast.

3723
01:54:48,230 –> 01:54:49,722
Want to thank you for always my.

3724
01:54:49,776 –> 01:54:51,254
Pleasure wrapping his arms

3725
01:54:51,302 –> 01:54:52,662
around this very challenging

3726
01:54:52,726 –> 01:54:53,146
book.

3727
01:54:53,248 –> 01:54:55,994
And there’s there’s like 30 some

3728
01:54:56,032 –> 01:54:56,246
odd.

3729
01:54:56,278 –> 01:54:58,762
Or 40 some odd books in actually

3730
01:54:58,816 –> 01:55:00,506
22 I’m sorry, books in City of

3731
01:55:00,528 –> 01:55:02,726
God divided up into smaller

3732
01:55:02,758 –> 01:55:03,286
chapters.

3733
01:55:03,398 –> 01:55:04,854
Again, it’s 1100 pages.

3734
01:55:04,902 –> 01:55:06,730
So we’ll be revisiting this

3735
01:55:06,880 –> 01:55:08,380
further on down the road.

3736
01:55:09,310 –> 01:55:12,740
But until that time, them well,

3737
01:55:14,230 –> 01:55:15,620
that’s it for me.