Animal Farm by George Orwell w/Tom Libby and Jesan Sorrells

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Hello, my name is Jesan Sorrells, and this

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is the Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast. Episode

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number 155.

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The technology of movable type invented by Johannes

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Gutenberg 570 years ago

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this year launched a revolution in the spread of

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ideas, the growth of literacy, the discovery of new worlds, and

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even the fomenting of revolutions.

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Without such technology, storytelling in the Western world would have remained a matter of people

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passing along an oral tradition.

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Tradition and the bad ideas actually did.

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But technology cannot defend itself successfully against

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committed ideologues and the principles of free speech, free

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assembly, free freedom of worship. These have all become part and

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parcel of the conversations that are around,

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that are around the revolution that Gutenberg and

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Gutenberg’s invention wrought. By the way, they’re

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still part and parcel of all the conversations we have today in

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the children of the revolution that Gutenberg

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wrought through the computer, mass distribution of

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books, and of course, our current obsession with

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large language models. Today,

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on this episode of the podcast,

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we will be recommending and we will

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be talking about a book and its themes that leaders

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can use during times of change

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that may seem cynical, during times of fatal opportunism, and

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even during times of cultural slop. We’re going to talk about a small book that

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kind of cuts through all of that and that most. A book most

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people have read in high school, but wasn’t really taught really well to

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them. It’s a book that’s so deceptively simple

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that most of us just miss it.

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So we’re going to cover and we are going to talk about the

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themes inherent in George Orwell’s

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Animal Farm leaders.

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We have looked at society that is messed up and we have found

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ourselves wanting, so now it’s up to us to

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fix it. And Animal Farm and Orwell somewhat

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show the way. And of course, today, as usual,

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we are joined by my usual co host, my usual

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partner in crime, I believe I could say that. Now on the show,

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my usual partner in crime, Tom Libby. How you doing, Tom?

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Living my best life. Hey, son, you’re always living your best life. You’re never

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not living your best life. When does that not happen? When are you gonna. When

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are you gonna open up the kimono and let the listeners in? Well,

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because I can’t live anybody else’s life and nobody else can live mine, so I

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can only live my best life. I don’t know how else to say it. You

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know, it’s. It’s one of those things that, you know,

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there’s whether my. Whether my best life is

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good or bad from somebody else’s perspective. Now, that’s not for me to judge, but

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I’m just saying, you know, it’s my best life, so. Okay, well, you know what?

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I guess that goes along with your truth as well. Whatever that may.

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Whatever that may mean. Your truth, my truth. The truth. Right.

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Exactly. God, if my wife were here, she’d be like, shut up, Jesan. That’s a

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new thought. Get out of here. We wouldn’t, you know, tolerate any of that nonsense

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here. There’s principles.

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Oh, my Lord. All right, well, today, as I said,

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we are going to be reading. We’re going to be reading excerpts from a

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book that I don’t think Orwell thought would make that much of an impact. I

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think he was probably shocked and surprised how much impact it actually

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made. I think he would continue to be shocked and surprised that,

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just like F. Scott Fitzgerald and Ernest Hemingway, it is a book that high

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school students read, and just barely. I’m actually going to tell a

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story about this book. I think

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my. My kids read it in middle school, actually. Okay, this the

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story I have to tell. And I’ll wait until we. We hit our sort of

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our third section there. But someone who I do jiu jitsu with, he was telling

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me, and he’s, like, in his mid-30s. He told me an entire story about how

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he never actually got the book because something

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else happened in the teaching of it.

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All right, well, picking up from Animal Farm, I’m going to go ahead and

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pick up from right here at the beginning, and we’re going to talk about

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a. A pig named Major who

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had a dream.

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All the animals are now present except Moses, the tame raven, who slept on a

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perch behind the back door. When Major saw that they had all

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made themselves comfortable and were waiting attentively, he cleared his throat and

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began. Comrades, you have heard

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already about the strange dream I had last night, but I will come to the

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dream later. I have something else to say first. I do not think,

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comrades, that I shall be with you for many months longer. And before I die,

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I feel it my duty to pass to you such wisdom as I have acquired.

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I have had a long life. I have had much time for thought as I

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lay alone in my stall. And I think I may say that I understand the

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nature of life on this earth as well as any animal now living.

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It is about this that I wish to speak to you now,

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comrades, what is the nature of this life of ours? Let us face it. Our

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lives are miserable, laborious and short. We are

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born we are given just so much food as will keep the breath in our

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bodies. And those of us who are capable of it are forced to work to

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the last atom of our strength. And the very instant that our usefulness has come

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to an end. We are slaughtered with hideous cruelty. No animal in

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England knows the meaning of happiness or leisure after he is a year old. No

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animal in England is free. The life of an animal is misery and slavery.

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That is the plain truth.

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But is this simply part of the natural order? Is it because this land

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of ours is so poor that it cannot afford a decent life to those who

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dwell upon it? No, comrades. A thousand times no. The soil of

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England is fertile. Its climate is good. It is capable of affording food and

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abundance. To an enormously greater number of animals than now inhabit it. This single farm

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of ours would support a dozen horses, 20 cows, hundreds of sheep. And all of

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them living in comfort and dignity that are now almost beyond our imagining.

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Why, then, do we continue in this miserable condition? Because

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nearly the whole of the produce of our labor Is stolen from us

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by human beings. Their comrades Is the answer

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to all of our problems. It is summed up in a single word. Men.

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Man is the only real enemy we have. Remove man from the scene,

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and the root cause of hunger and overwork is abolished forever.

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Man is the only creature that consumes without producing. He does not give milk. He

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does not lay eggs. He is too weak to pull the plow. He cannot run

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fast enough to catch rabbits. Yet he is the lord of all the animals.

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He sets them to work. He gives back to them the bare minimum that will

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prevent them from starving. And the rest he keeps for himself.

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Our labor tills the soil. Our dung fertilizes it. And yet there is

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not one of us that owns more than his bare skin. You cows that I

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see before me. How many thousands of gallons of milk have you given during this

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last year? And what has happened to that milk which should have been breeding up

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sturdy calves? Every drop of it has gone down the throats of our enemies.

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And you hens, how many eggs have you laid in this year? And how many

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of those eggs ever hatched into chickens? The rest have all gone to market to

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bring in money for Jones and his men. And you, Clover, where are those

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four foals you bore. Who should have been the support and pleasure of your old

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age? Each was sold at a year old. And when you will never see them

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again, return for your four confinements.

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All your labor in the fields. What have you ever had except your

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bare Rations

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and a stall and myself. I do not grumble. I’m one of the lucky ones.

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I am 12 years old and I’ve had over 400 children, such as the natural

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life of a pig.

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But no animal escapes. Every one of you will scream your lives out of the

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block within a year. To that horror, we must all come. Cows, pigs, hens, sheep.

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Everyone. Even the horses and the dogs have no better fate. You boxer. The

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very day that those great muscles of yours lose their power, Jones will send you

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to the knacker, who will cut your throat and boil you down for the hounds

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and for the dogs when they grow old and toothless. Jones ties bricks around their

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necks and drowns them in the nearest pond.

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Is it not crystal clear then, comrades, that all the evils of this life of

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ours spring from the tyranny of human beings? Only get rid of man and the

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produce of our labor will be our own. Almost overnight we could become rich and

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free. What then must we do? Why, work

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night and day, foreign

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soul, for the overthrow of the human race. That might be in a weaker and

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100 years. But I know as surely as I see this straw beneath my feet

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that sooner or later, justice will be done. Fix your eyes on that, comrades, throughout

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the short remainder of your lives. And above all, pass on this message of mine

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to those who come after you, so that future generations shall carry on the struggle

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until it is victorious. And remember, comrades, your resolution must never

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falter. No argument must lead you

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astray. Never listen when they tell you that lies. Man serves the interests

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of no creature except himself. And among us animals, let there be perfect

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unity, perfect comradeship. In the struggle, all men are enemies.

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All animals are comrades.

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At this moment, there was tremendous uproar While Major was speaking. Four large rats had

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crept out of their holes and were sitting in the hindquarters listening to him, the

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dogs. And suddenly,

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for silence. Comrades, he said, here is the point that must be

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settled. The wild creatures such as rats and rabbits, are they our

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friends or our enemies? Let me put it to a vote. I propose this question

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in the meeting. Are rats

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comrades?

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God, I love that. I love that opening so much.

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Matter of fact, that opening right there is the entire book. I mean, that’s the

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whole thing. Yeah, for sure.

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And it’s. It’s Orwell’s now.

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1984 was not a brilliant book, and we covered that on the podcast. You

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should go back and listen to that episode. We’re actually doing these books in reverse

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because normally people read Animal Farm first and then they go into

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1984. And they expect the same level of

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literary elon, such as it were in 1984.

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And you don’t really get that. It’s like he ran out of. We talked about

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this on the episode with, with Claire

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Chandler and David. David Bombrucker. It’s almost as if

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he runs out of energy, literary energy. But Animal Farm is so

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short, it’s barely. What, like it’s

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125 pages. It’s so short.

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And he doesn’t run out of energy and he establishes the whole

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thing and everything follows from the

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old Pig Major speech right there at the beginning.

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So, Tom Libby, I’m going to go off script a little bit here are

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rats, Comrades.

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I mean, are we still talking metaphorically or

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talking in the. The actual animal kingdom? I don’t know, it’s.

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Guess it depends on the way you look at it. Oh, okay. All right, let’s

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start off something simpler. What did you think of Animal Farm? Talk to us about

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your experiences with this book and when you first read it. Well,

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okay, so let’s, let’s. I mean I didn’t reread it, but

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let’s just be realistic here. I read it, you know, 35

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years ago. The,

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the things that I remember. And, and again, you know, as, as you read

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stuff like this, it’s very easy to have a vision

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in your head of, of like,

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like that, that, that, let’s say commercialized vision in

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your head. So whether it’s animation or whether. Whatever, like. But you.

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This book is very easy to actually envision how you’re

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like, what is actually happening as you’re. So when Major’s giving that speech,

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I’m thinking of like. I’m thinking of a pig standing at a podium or

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maybe not, I don’t know, whatever, but like almost very

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Hitler like, or, or you know,

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Mus…Mussolini-like, or something like that. And he’s supposed to be,

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he’s supposed to be a, an avatar for Lenin. For Vladimir

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Lenin. Yeah. Vladimir Lenin, yeah. And Lenin would give fiery speeches in

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particular from the back of train cars after Germany sent him. Sent

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him back through, sent him back to Russia through Finland

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to, to get the Russians out of World War I and to start off the

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Russian Revolution back in the day. So Orwell would have been familiar with all that.

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Sorry, go ahead. Right. No, no, I was gonna say. Exactly. And, and if you’re,

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if there’s any mistake of, of what he’s referring to,

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though just the use of the term comrade should tell you right up front

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like that this is Some sort of, like, you know, mirror.

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Some sort of animalistic version of, of what was

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happening at Russia at the time of his life. Right. Like, this is, that’s the

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whole, you know, the whole point of it. I, I guess, I mean, that was

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his intention from what I understand anyway. But,

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but like, as the book goes on, and I’m sure you’re going to talk

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about it, you know, going, going forward, but as the book goes on, I think,

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you know, watching that dynamic change and the position of power

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and like, how that, how it all kind of evolves and is very interesting

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to me. I, I, I’ve always found the book very interesting, but

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very basic. Like, like it’s, it’s almost like, it’s

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almost like the, you know, he’s using animals to depict

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the natural order of human beings. Actually, not animals.

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Like, you know, it, it’s

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us as human beings if we were treated the way the animals,

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the way he described. But let me rephrase this. When

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we are treated, when human beings are treated the way that the animals are

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described in this, in this book, which is we’re basically pieces of meat that

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move, you know, I pick things up, I put things down, you know, whatever, and

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you’re, you’re only, you’re only, you’re only as good to them until you’re as

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long as you’re productive. And then once you’re not productive, they get rid of you.

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I mean, we have had uprise over, uprise over,

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uprise over this, like from a human perspective. So he’s just

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depicting it in an animal state. It’s, it’s literally the same story we’ve seen a,

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a hundred times through, through human history. So. Right.

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And he, and he, he seems to. One of the things that jumps

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out to you about Animal Farm number one is of course, it’s a short book,

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which I already mentioned. But then the second thing that jumps out to you about

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it, and it is something that’s kind of interesting, is

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the fact that the

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animal

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pursuing a use of utopia,

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and they are, and they’re doing it, they’re doing it ruthlessly. Hold on a second.

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Let me do this. Hold on. Pause for just a second.

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All right. Picking up where we broke. You’re gonna, you’re

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gonna edit everything after this, all right? Or before this. Three, two,

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one. Okay, so it’s an allegory, right? Like, that’s the

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thing with, with Animal Farm, and you’re right, he’s describing.

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Or where, where, where, or where this rises to a level of art

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is because he’s describing the human condition in terms of a fairy tale. And it’s

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easier for us to accept this as a fairy tale.

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And it’s a fairy tale about Marxism, right, Which

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it’s. It would be really hard to. For us to kind of swallow, particularly for

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people. Back when this book was published in. Let’s see,

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1940,

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was it 46. It was like 43 was when

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he started coming up with the idea, if I remember correctly. And then he published

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it in 45, if I remember correctly. Although you’re probably

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gonna. I’m probably gonna get corrected on those numbers, and that’s fine.

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But he, He. He wanted to

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put together a book that would be critical of the. Critical

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of Marxism, which, as a socialist, an English socialist,

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he thought that that was. That communism was a bridge too

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far, basically. And so he was critiquing the left from

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the left, right? And, you know, at the

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time, the, The. The. The victory

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of. And you’ll see this later on in Animal Farm when they start doing production

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and they, they start tracking production and the pigs start running everything,

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which is interesting, by the way. But

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he, He. He was beginning to see the cracks by the time the 40s

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came around in the system, particularly under. Particularly under

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Stalin with the. With the concentration camps and the gulags.

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So second question. Is Animal farm better than 1984? I know you

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read it 30 years ago, but is. Would you say the Animal Farm is a

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00:17:20,239 –> 00:17:23,999
better book than 1984? The only reason I say

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yes is because I probably remember more of animal farm than

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1984. So obviously it made some sort of more impactful.

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Something more impactful to me than the 1984. The. I don’t, I

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don’t necessarily dissect it the way that you do from a literary art perspective. I

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mean, obviously you do that for a reason, because that was at one point your

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labor of love. Being a journalist, you know, being able. Being an

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art major and, you know, our art has been very important to you. For me,

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it’s more about. It’s more about

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practicality. Like, what can I actually use in. In.

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In. And convert into my practical living? So. Right again.

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Back in High School, 1980, Animal

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Farm. This is gonna sound so stupid, but think about

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it, like, think about it from like a. Like a sports perspective, right? Like, so

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you played sports, I played sports. You got this hierarchy that happens.

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And, and by the way, back in the day, when we played sports, there was

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no such thing as hazing. That was just the way things were. So.

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Right. Like, it’s true this is true. We didn’t.

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We didn’t even have a word for it. We just. It was like a rite

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of passage. Right. Like you. It was a day ending in why and get out

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there and run. Exactly. I was a freshman. I was a. I was on

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a varsity team as a freshman, which meant I was treated worse than everybody

295
00:18:39,360 –> 00:18:43,050
else. So, again. But when I read Animal Farm, I’m looking at it going, okay,

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so at some point, I can grow into this. I can do that. You know

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what I mean? Like, it was like, I was. It was a direct relation to

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what I was coping with at the time of, like, power and power struggles

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and power hierarchies and who’s in charge and who dictates what.

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So 1984 kind of wasn’t right. Like, really. I didn’t

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really interpret it that way when I was reading it. I. I felt there was.

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You know, and again, I’m reading this in the late 80s, by the

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way. So 1984, again, my

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generation, there was a slight confusion. Like, we had to be reminded that this was

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written 45 years earlier. We’re like, no, this isn’t about four years

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00:19:17,890 –> 00:19:21,570
ago, guys. This is about, like, you know, 1950. Right?

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Yeah. Whereas Animal Farm didn’t have that

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confusion. We. We. Like I said, when you read it, you could picture what was

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happening. Like, you like, okay, this is a farm. Animals are revolting. This is kind

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of like, you know, students rebelling against teachers. Or Right

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00:19:36,230 –> 00:19:40,070
at the time when we had the Iran Contra affairs and we watched. Oh, yeah,

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we’re watching things on TV about revolutions over in the

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Middle east and all this other. It was very. It was much more relatable to

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00:19:46,870 –> 00:19:49,950
me, I guess, is the. The point. Which is why, for me, if I had

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to, like, literally put my finger down and say, yes, one book was better than

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the other. I’d pick Animal Farm just because it was more impactful at the time.

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It was more impactful at time, yeah. Okay, back to the book. Back

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to Animal Farm here. So we’re going to pick up

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after the old Major Diesel, and

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this is Squealer.

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And. And then Napoleon.

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Napoleon, Snowball and.

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And. And a small fat pig named Squealer. They get

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together. I know this is gonna be a short episode, but we could have went

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00:20:26,480 –> 00:20:29,800
to at least a half an hour dissertation. Why did he pick the name Napoleon

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for this? Like, that part was fascinating to me, too, but

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00:20:33,590 –> 00:20:37,070
go ahead, read the book. Napoleon. So Napoleon was supposed to be a standard for

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Stalin? I know, but. I know, I know, I know. I know, I know. Yeah,

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00:20:40,670 –> 00:20:43,470
yeah. Oh, I know. Oh, I know. Yeah. Oh, it struck me, too. I have

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all kinds of notes in the margins. There’s all kinds of blood in the gutters

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in this book for me. And then Snowball was Trotsky,

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and then Squealer was supposed to stand in for Pravda, which

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Pravda was the newspaper that was put out in the

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Soviet Union that was the official mouth of the Russian revolution. And

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Pravda in Russia or in Russian, sorry,

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means–you’re gonna love this–TRUTH.

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Back to the book. These three had elaborated old Major’s

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teachings into a complete system of thought, which they gave the name

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of animalism. Love that. Several nights a week

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after Mr. Jones was asleep, they held secret meetings in the barn and

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expounded the principles of animalism to the others. At the beginning they met with much

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stupidity and apathy. Some of the animals talked of

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the duty of loyalty to Mr. Jones, whom they referred to as master,

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or made the elementary remarks such as, Mr. Jones feeds us. If he were gone,

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we should starve to death. Others ask such questions as why should we care what

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happens after we are dead? Or if this rebellion is to happen anyway, what difference

347
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does it make whether we work for it or not?

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Pause. Still questions that are asked today

349
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anyway. And the pigs had great difficulty in making them see that this

350
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was contrary to the spirit of animalism. The

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stupidest questions of all were asked by Molly, the white

352
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mare. The very first question she

353
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asked Snowball was, will there still be sugar after the rebellion?

354
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No, said Snowball firmly. We have no means of making sugar on this farm.

355
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Besides, you do not need sugar. You will have all the oats and hay you

356
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want. And shall I still be allowed to wear ribbons in my mane?

357
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Asked Molly. Comrade,

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then, Snowball, those ribbons that you are so devoted to are a badge of

359
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slavery. Can you not understand that liberty is worth more than ribbons?

360
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Molly agreed, but she did not sound very convinced.

361
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The pigs have an even artist struggle to counteract the lies

362
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put about by Moses, the tame raven, by the way. Pause.

363
00:22:49,190 –> 00:22:50,550
Moses represents religion.

364
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Back to the book. Moses, who was Mr. Jones special pet, was a spy and

365
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a tale bearer. But he was also a clever talker. He claimed

366
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to know of the existence of a mysterious country called Sugar Candy Mountain,

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to which all animals went when they died. It was situated somewhere up in the

368
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sky, a little distance beyond the clouds. Moses said, in Sugar Candy Mountain. It was

369
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Sunday, seven days a week. Clover was all in season all year round, and lump

370
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sugar and linseed Cake grew on the hedges. The animals hated

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Moses because he told tales and did no work. But some of them believed in

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Sugar Candy Mountain. And the pigs had to argue very hard to persuade them that

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there was no such place. Now,

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I’m pausing there, not because we’re doing a short episode, but

375
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because that’s the whole thing right there. I mean, that’s

376
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the whole nugget of like, Marxism, right? I’m sorry, cannibalism

377
00:23:41,520 –> 00:23:45,320
right there. There is no sugar Cany Mountain. Religion is the opiate

378
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of the masses and you need rebellion right now. You even see in

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that setup the different people who were involved in the

380
00:23:52,520 –> 00:23:55,880
revolution. So you’ve got Molly, who doesn’t really care about

381
00:23:55,880 –> 00:23:58,040
revolution, God bless her. She cares about

382
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bows in her main and in vanity, right? Bows. And can she still

383
00:24:03,120 –> 00:24:06,880
have bows and sugar after the revolution? Then you have the hardcore

384
00:24:06,880 –> 00:24:10,280
people who were all the way in. That’s snowball, you know. No

385
00:24:10,280 –> 00:24:13,420
comrade going to go hardcore for the revolution.

386
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We’re bringing this right now. They want the fight because they want the fight.

387
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And then you have folks like Boxer and Clover,

388
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who. Those are the two draw horses who. And I’ll pick up on this

389
00:24:25,820 –> 00:24:29,460
part. Their most faithful

390
00:24:29,460 –> 00:24:33,300
disciples were the two cart horses, Boxer and Clover. The two had great difficulty in

391
00:24:33,300 –> 00:24:36,980
thinking anything out for themselves. But having once accepted the pigs as their

392
00:24:36,980 –> 00:24:40,770
teachers, they absorbed everything they were told and passed it on to the

393
00:24:40,770 –> 00:24:44,450
other animals by simple arguments. They were unfailing in their

394
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attendance at the secret meetings in the barn and led the singing of Beasts of

395
00:24:47,970 –> 00:24:50,970
England, in which the meetings always ended.

396
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Now, as it turned out, the rebellion was achieved much earlier and more easily than

397
00:24:56,130 –> 00:24:59,650
anyone could have expected. In past years, Mr. Jones, although a hard

398
00:24:59,650 –> 00:25:03,250
master, had been a capable farmer, but of late he had fallen on

399
00:25:03,250 –> 00:25:06,850
evil days. He had become much disheartened after losing money in a lawsuit and had

400
00:25:06,850 –> 00:25:09,940
taken to drinking more than was good for him. For whole days at a time.

401
00:25:09,940 –> 00:25:13,340
He would lounge in his Windsor chair in the kitchen, reading the newspapers, drinking, and

402
00:25:13,340 –> 00:25:17,060
occasionally feeding Moses on crusts of bread soaked in beer. His men

403
00:25:17,060 –> 00:25:20,740
were idle and dishonest. The fields were full of weeds, the buildings wanted

404
00:25:20,740 –> 00:25:24,220
roofing, the hedges were neglected and the animals were under

405
00:25:24,619 –> 00:25:25,100
bed.

406
00:25:29,180 –> 00:25:32,060
There’s something there, by the way, for corporate leaders

407
00:25:33,020 –> 00:25:36,700
that I want to point out just early in the

408
00:25:36,700 –> 00:25:40,380
episode. If you’re not

409
00:25:40,380 –> 00:25:43,780
paying attention to your people, if you’re fat and lazy,

410
00:25:44,420 –> 00:25:48,220
if you’re stupid and yes, I did use that word. If you’re not

411
00:25:48,220 –> 00:25:51,220
up on industry trends, if you’re not up on trends outside of your industry.

412
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If you have fallen on hard times through no fault of your own.

413
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I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it doesn’t

414
00:26:00,350 –> 00:26:04,070
matter. You’ve got to be active and you got to remain

415
00:26:04,070 –> 00:26:07,630
competent. Otherwise. Otherwise the rebellion will come as

416
00:26:07,630 –> 00:26:11,310
surely as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

417
00:26:11,470 –> 00:26:14,310
Go ahead, Tom. Tom has a thought there. I, I can see it on his

418
00:26:14,310 –> 00:26:17,750
face. Yeah, all I was going to say is so, so the, like the, the,

419
00:26:17,750 –> 00:26:21,310
the key to me and the, the more direct translation here is again,

420
00:26:21,470 –> 00:26:25,110
let’s just stay with the theme of the book where the farmer basically

421
00:26:25,110 –> 00:26:28,790
fell on hard times with no. Of. No fault of his own.

422
00:26:28,790 –> 00:26:32,270
So let’s. Right, for today’s leaders, just fixate on that. So,

423
00:26:32,430 –> 00:26:36,270
yeah, to your point though, falling on hard times,

424
00:26:36,830 –> 00:26:40,630
no fault of your own does not give you permission to treat

425
00:26:40,630 –> 00:26:43,790
people poorly. To neglect your responsibilities as a leader

426
00:26:44,110 –> 00:26:47,790
to. It doesn’t give you the right or permission to do that.

427
00:26:48,110 –> 00:26:51,950
You can, you can fall on hard times, Your company can have a downturn,

428
00:26:52,830 –> 00:26:56,610
and guess what helps you figure it out. Like

429
00:26:56,610 –> 00:27:00,090
your people, it’s your best asset. It’s your number one

430
00:27:00,330 –> 00:27:03,610
asset. So if you treat them right, treat them fairly,

431
00:27:03,850 –> 00:27:07,690
inform them, keep them up to date as what’s going on, a little transparency goes

432
00:27:07,690 –> 00:27:11,210
a long way. I’m not suggesting you open your books and show them everything, but

433
00:27:11,610 –> 00:27:14,650
a little transparency goes a long way and being able to

434
00:27:15,610 –> 00:27:19,410
kind of at least share your vision of

435
00:27:19,410 –> 00:27:23,000
what you. What should be coming out on the other side of it could

436
00:27:23,000 –> 00:27:25,840
potentially, could potentially

437
00:27:28,160 –> 00:27:31,880
stave off something, an animal like, like that, that revolt, that rebellion,

438
00:27:31,880 –> 00:27:35,560
that massive exodus of employees, that, that ends up happening on these

439
00:27:35,560 –> 00:27:38,359
cases. But if you just bury your head in the sand and you don’t deal

440
00:27:38,359 –> 00:27:42,200
with it up front like, yeah, you’re right, they’re going. You’re gonna go. They’re

441
00:27:42,200 –> 00:27:45,600
gonna go. So, so to, to the point that you’re making here in the book,

442
00:27:45,920 –> 00:27:49,720
it’s his fault. It’s his own. It’s his own damn fault, right? Like it’s his

443
00:27:49,720 –> 00:27:53,230
own fault. Because falling on hard times or not, you still control

444
00:27:53,310 –> 00:27:56,390
you. You can still go out and plow the field. You can still do the

445
00:27:56,390 –> 00:28:00,030
things that you have to do that cost you no money and

446
00:28:00,110 –> 00:28:03,830
probably would have kept your animals happy and feeling like you cared about

447
00:28:03,830 –> 00:28:05,870
them, I. E. Employees.

448
00:28:08,590 –> 00:28:12,270
There’s a direct relation here, like direct correlation here, right? Like

449
00:28:12,270 –> 00:28:15,790
that’s, it’s well, well and otherwise. I mean, I think of the.

450
00:28:16,920 –> 00:28:20,000
Oh God. There was a Whole joke in Seinfeld in one of those episodes of

451
00:28:20,000 –> 00:28:23,520
that show which I loved. I used to know that show back and forth inside

452
00:28:23,520 –> 00:28:26,360
and out. But there’s one episode where

453
00:28:27,800 –> 00:28:31,640
Kramer and the character. Kramer and the

454
00:28:31,640 –> 00:28:35,440
character, the postman, Newman. Oh, Newman. Yeah, yeah. Got together

455
00:28:35,440 –> 00:28:39,000
about some nonsense. No, no, I

456
00:28:39,000 –> 00:28:41,880
remember. And I remember I knew in the encyclopedia of my mind it would come

457
00:28:41,880 –> 00:28:44,760
back. Kramer decided that he was going to import.

458
00:28:46,920 –> 00:28:50,600
He was going to pick up Cubans from the airport. Not

459
00:28:50,600 –> 00:28:54,000
cigars people. And he was going to have them roll cigars in his

460
00:28:54,000 –> 00:28:57,080
apartment because he didn’t want to pay for Cuban cigars.

461
00:28:59,080 –> 00:29:02,800
And so his sort of wound

462
00:29:02,800 –> 00:29:06,600
up in a weird kind of Animal Farm sort of thing

463
00:29:06,760 –> 00:29:09,640
where he was the leader of these Cubans and he was taking them around town

464
00:29:09,640 –> 00:29:13,160
to showing them around. And. And the.

465
00:29:13,640 –> 00:29:17,440
What’s her name? Elaine was dating a Marxist, one of those

466
00:29:17,440 –> 00:29:20,680
academic Marxists who refused to name names,

467
00:29:21,160 –> 00:29:24,960
whose father refused to name names. And so

468
00:29:24,960 –> 00:29:28,400
he was very much. He was like snowball. He was very much into the revolution,

469
00:29:28,400 –> 00:29:31,960
right? And I can’t remember all the vicissitudes of the particular

470
00:29:31,960 –> 00:29:35,800
episode listeners can find this episode. But somehow he wound up

471
00:29:35,800 –> 00:29:39,160
talking to the Cubans. And then the Cubans rebelled

472
00:29:39,640 –> 00:29:43,160
and they had no work. That was it. They had no work

473
00:29:43,160 –> 00:29:46,760
because Kramer has no work in that apartment. And

474
00:29:46,760 –> 00:29:50,200
Kramer went to Jerry and he said to him, you know, when there’s a

475
00:29:50,200 –> 00:29:53,320
revolution, you know who they come for first? El presidente.

476
00:29:55,400 –> 00:29:59,240
Exactly. Exactly. And so.

477
00:29:59,560 –> 00:30:03,120
And so Jerry was like, are we still talking about people? Are we talking about

478
00:30:03,120 –> 00:30:05,400
cigars? Like, what are we talking about here?

479
00:30:06,860 –> 00:30:10,500
And it was just one of those goofy things. But it. I don’t know why

480
00:30:10,500 –> 00:30:13,740
that suddenly unbidden came into. Well, because my brain is a

481
00:30:14,140 –> 00:30:17,100
font of pop cult 90s pop culture. That’s what it is.

482
00:30:17,820 –> 00:30:21,020
And so that. That unbidden came to my. Came to my mind,

483
00:30:22,620 –> 00:30:26,380
okay, so going back to high school for just a minute, I

484
00:30:26,380 –> 00:30:29,500
was talking with a friend of mine who I roll. I roll Jiu Jitsu with.

485
00:30:29,500 –> 00:30:32,540
This is my one obligatory Jiu Jitsu story per episode

486
00:30:33,120 –> 00:30:36,520
here, who I rolling Jiu Jitsu with. And he was telling me, because he saw

487
00:30:36,520 –> 00:30:39,880
me reading the book at the. At the Jiu Jitsu gym in preparation for this.

488
00:30:39,880 –> 00:30:43,680
For this episode. And the first question he asked me is, are you actually

489
00:30:43,680 –> 00:30:47,040
reading that book to teach other people or are you reading that book for yourself?

490
00:30:47,840 –> 00:30:51,000
I said, I’m reading this book to give it to other folks. Right? And he

491
00:30:51,000 –> 00:30:53,880
said, oh, that’s interesting, because he Said, when I was 16, he went to a

492
00:30:53,880 –> 00:30:57,440
military high school. When I was 16, we all rebelled against our

493
00:30:57,440 –> 00:31:01,090
instructor because we couldn’t see the point. And this is the whole point of the

494
00:31:01,090 –> 00:31:04,850
story. We couldn’t understand the point of the book. And he

495
00:31:04,850 –> 00:31:08,410
was like 16 in like 2008, right? He’s like, we

496
00:31:08,410 –> 00:31:12,050
couldn’t see the point of the book and he wouldn’t explain it to

497
00:31:12,050 –> 00:31:15,650
us. And so he just was just like, oh, you don’t have to read it,

498
00:31:15,650 –> 00:31:18,970
and just walked away from the book, right? And I said to him,

499
00:31:19,690 –> 00:31:23,290
well, you know, this book is an allegory for Marxism and communism, right?

500
00:31:23,450 –> 00:31:26,570
And like, things happening in the 1930s. And it’s sort of a warning to watch

501
00:31:26,570 –> 00:31:30,340
out for these kinds of things. And it’s just all written with animals. And

502
00:31:30,340 –> 00:31:33,980
he said to me, he said to me, we all couldn’t figure out

503
00:31:33,980 –> 00:31:37,740
why the animals were there and what the fairy tale was. And we were like,

504
00:31:37,740 –> 00:31:41,380
this is, it was an all male military school. Say, this is garbage. We’re throwing

505
00:31:41,380 –> 00:31:43,900
this thing out. Like, we don’t, we don’t care. And he said, if they had

506
00:31:43,900 –> 00:31:47,540
just explained to us that it was about Marxism, we probably would have been really

507
00:31:47,540 –> 00:31:51,140
interested in that. And that’s,

508
00:31:51,140 –> 00:31:54,990
I think, one of the things that’s

509
00:31:54,990 –> 00:31:58,750
allowed this book to stick. So if you get people who actually know how

510
00:31:58,750 –> 00:32:02,430
to teach it about the pursuit

511
00:32:02,430 –> 00:32:06,070
of like, Marxist utopia, you can actually teach this

512
00:32:06,070 –> 00:32:09,829
book. You can actually get people to accept it. I mean, my, my daughter read

513
00:32:09,829 –> 00:32:13,310
it when she was in high school and she’s in, she’s in

514
00:32:13,310 –> 00:32:17,070
college now, and my youngest

515
00:32:17,070 –> 00:32:20,910
daughter is going to be reading it this year. She just turned 15, so she’s

516
00:32:20,910 –> 00:32:24,470
going to be reading it this year as part of her, part of her, her

517
00:32:24,470 –> 00:32:28,070
reading curriculum for, for, for her education.

518
00:32:30,150 –> 00:32:33,710
And I think it’s important to get this book across to folks because we do

519
00:32:33,710 –> 00:32:37,230
have many folks in the younger generation who are

520
00:32:37,230 –> 00:32:40,870
attracted to the tenants of animalism.

521
00:32:42,070 –> 00:32:45,750
They are, I mean, just in our time, just recently, I mean, we had

522
00:32:47,760 –> 00:32:51,040
a Muslim out and out communist

523
00:32:51,760 –> 00:32:54,720
win the primary race for New York City mayor.

524
00:32:57,680 –> 00:33:01,400
Like, there’s no way that the promises that that guy has made, whether we think

525
00:33:01,400 –> 00:33:04,840
they’re politically feasible or not, is another thing altogether. The nature of the way in

526
00:33:04,840 –> 00:33:08,240
which he makes the promises are literally what the pigs say

527
00:33:08,480 –> 00:33:09,600
in Animal Farm.

528
00:33:12,650 –> 00:33:16,450
Literally the same promises, almost even the same language. And I would

529
00:33:16,450 –> 00:33:20,210
laugh if it weren’t so tragic. And there

530
00:33:20,210 –> 00:33:24,050
are people who have gone to Columbia University who think that

531
00:33:24,050 –> 00:33:26,490
this is a good idea. And they voted for him.

532
00:33:28,650 –> 00:33:32,090
There is a failure somewhere in American high school education.

533
00:33:33,850 –> 00:33:37,530
Well, I, I think, I think part of it. I think part of

534
00:33:37,530 –> 00:33:39,610
it. And by the way, by the way, I don’t care if you want it.

535
00:33:39,610 –> 00:33:42,900
I don’t care if you want it. Great. You want socialism, you want Marxism, fine,

536
00:33:42,900 –> 00:33:46,300
cool. Vote for that. Vote for the guy who. Cool. But don’t say we didn’t

537
00:33:46,300 –> 00:33:50,100
warn you because we educated you. Yeah, well. So I, I

538
00:33:50,100 –> 00:33:53,500
had a recent conversation with my youngest son, who by the way is

539
00:33:54,220 –> 00:33:57,980
going to turn 26 in, in about two weeks. So not young

540
00:33:57,980 –> 00:34:01,340
young, but he’s my youngest of the four sons, right? And.

541
00:34:03,260 –> 00:34:07,060
It seems like every time he sees an article in the

542
00:34:07,060 –> 00:34:10,880
news, left article, right. Article, doesn’t matter. Just any

543
00:34:10,880 –> 00:34:12,720
kind of article in the news that is like

544
00:34:14,560 –> 00:34:18,240
somebody takes journalistic and integrity and throws it out the

545
00:34:18,240 –> 00:34:22,080
window and just, you know, romanticizes this or, or

546
00:34:22,080 –> 00:34:25,200
over exaggerates that or whatever, Right, sure, yeah.

547
00:34:26,480 –> 00:34:30,280
And he reacts to it, like viscerally reacts

548
00:34:30,280 –> 00:34:33,760
to it and I don’t. And he always gets confused by why. Like,

549
00:34:34,209 –> 00:34:37,329
aren’t you reading this? Aren’t you looking at this? Aren’t you? And I said, yeah,

550
00:34:37,329 –> 00:34:41,089
but I’m twice your age and been through a hell of a

551
00:34:41,089 –> 00:34:44,849
lot more than you. I’ve seen this before. I’ve read this book before. Like,

552
00:34:45,249 –> 00:34:48,969
what you’re experiencing is not new to me. And I think that to your

553
00:34:48,969 –> 00:34:52,489
point, like, I, when, when people talk to me about utopias and

554
00:34:52,489 –> 00:34:55,929
socialism and all this stuff that they think is going to fix the world, and

555
00:34:55,929 –> 00:34:59,689
I say, yeah, we’ve seen this story. Like, we’ve seen

556
00:34:59,689 –> 00:35:03,200
this before. Like, we’ve seen this happen throughout history

557
00:35:03,280 –> 00:35:06,480
over and over and over again, and not a lot changes. You know why? Because

558
00:35:06,480 –> 00:35:09,920
if you take whatever the magic number is,

559
00:35:11,120 –> 00:35:14,560
20 people, and you throw them in a compound and you call it a utopia

560
00:35:14,560 –> 00:35:18,160
and they’re all happy, probably, okay, you take 20,000,

561
00:35:18,640 –> 00:35:22,320
probably not going to happen, right? Like, because there’s always

562
00:35:23,200 –> 00:35:27,040
leadership roles that take over. Like, people look to people for answers. People

563
00:35:27,200 –> 00:35:31,030
and those that this is exactly what happens in Animal Farm. Nobody

564
00:35:31,030 –> 00:35:34,350
knows what to do. So the pigs take over, right? Like, the pigs basically say

565
00:35:34,350 –> 00:35:37,310
we’re smarter than everybody else, so we’re going to take over. And

566
00:35:37,870 –> 00:35:41,630
initially seems like it’s not the worst idea in the world until they

567
00:35:41,630 –> 00:35:45,070
realize the hunger of the power and then they just

568
00:35:45,230 –> 00:35:48,230
like dive into it head first, right? Like, oh yeah. Then all of a sudden

569
00:35:48,230 –> 00:35:51,710
it’s. It’s power. Power. And, and we saw that happen

570
00:35:51,870 –> 00:35:55,540
even, even back in the day in the communist, like, we saw the

571
00:35:55,540 –> 00:35:59,260
world look at Russia and say, oh, this could potentially be a

572
00:35:59,260 –> 00:36:03,060
decent thing, this communism thing, where everyone’s considered equal, blah, blah,

573
00:36:03,060 –> 00:36:06,740
blah. Well, guess what, folks? That didn’t happen that way. Nope. Like,

574
00:36:06,820 –> 00:36:10,460
it didn’t end up that way. You know why? Because it doesn’t work like it

575
00:36:10,460 –> 00:36:14,140
does. It just doesn’t. It doesn’t work. So, so

576
00:36:14,140 –> 00:36:17,540
like, so when it’s really

577
00:36:17,780 –> 00:36:21,470
hard for, like, okay, you’re going to revolt, go for it. And who’s

578
00:36:21,470 –> 00:36:24,590
gonna take the lead in that revolt? Are you going to be the leader after?

579
00:36:24,670 –> 00:36:27,510
Are you going to take charge? Or are you going to step down? Because now

580
00:36:27,510 –> 00:36:31,230
you want to be equal with everybody else. I hate to tell

581
00:36:31,230 –> 00:36:35,030
people, but as much as we want to, there. As much as

582
00:36:35,030 –> 00:36:38,870
we. There are people out there that despise capitalism.

583
00:36:38,870 –> 00:36:42,470
Right. And despise the way capitalism works. But if

584
00:36:42,470 –> 00:36:45,870
it’s, if it’s. If you look at the two systems side by side

585
00:36:46,290 –> 00:36:50,130
and you look at all of their theologies, sure, socialism

586
00:36:50,130 –> 00:36:53,170
and all that, that looks better. It looks better on paper.

587
00:36:54,930 –> 00:36:58,730
But in practicality, again, like I said, 20 people

588
00:36:58,730 –> 00:37:02,450
on a farm, sure. 20,000 people in a small city,

589
00:37:02,690 –> 00:37:06,410
probably not going to work. So, so anyway, like my whole point to that,

590
00:37:06,410 –> 00:37:10,090
whole that into your body, like it’s. How do

591
00:37:10,090 –> 00:37:13,880
you, like, this is more of the same. Think about this. He wrote

592
00:37:13,880 –> 00:37:17,680
about this in 1945. This book was published in 1945, by

593
00:37:17,680 –> 00:37:20,440
the way. I don’t know why that just popped into my head, but I remember

594
00:37:20,440 –> 00:37:24,280
it was 1945. Go ahead. Yeah, go back and forth between 43 and 46 or

595
00:37:24,280 –> 00:37:27,240
whatever. So book written in 1945, it.

596
00:37:27,880 –> 00:37:31,720
And nothing has changed in 50 years. Like

597
00:37:31,720 –> 00:37:35,480
60, I don’t know, 60. It’s been 60. 60, 60, 70, 80

598
00:37:35,480 –> 00:37:39,210
years almost. Whatever. Right. Like 80 years almost. And, and we’re now we’re

599
00:37:39,210 –> 00:37:42,850
still talking about trying to strive for that utopia and push

600
00:37:42,850 –> 00:37:45,650
toward that equal everything. Like

601
00:37:47,250 –> 00:37:51,090
there are things that should be equal regardless of race, creed, color,

602
00:37:51,090 –> 00:37:54,210
whatever. Absolutely. Human rights. Sure.

603
00:37:55,090 –> 00:37:58,930
You know things like being treated like a person. Yes, sure. Great. But

604
00:37:58,930 –> 00:38:02,050
if I work harder than you and we make the same amount of money because

605
00:38:02,050 –> 00:38:05,770
of it, like that’s going to piss me off. Right? Like that’s right. Like I’m

606
00:38:05,770 –> 00:38:08,970
not gonna. Then one of the things is gonna happen, either I’m gonna work less

607
00:38:09,130 –> 00:38:11,690
and you’re gonna get mad at me because I’m working less now all of a

608
00:38:11,690 –> 00:38:15,370
sudden, and we, we see this small Dynamics and in very

609
00:38:15,370 –> 00:38:19,050
like blue collar environments like, like my, I spent

610
00:38:19,050 –> 00:38:22,850
good portion of my early career in restaurants. You always

611
00:38:22,850 –> 00:38:26,410
get that kid that’s killing himself like really busting his ass and

612
00:38:26,490 –> 00:38:30,270
somebody else not doing much. And as a leader, it’s my responsibility not to part

613
00:38:30,340 –> 00:38:33,740
punish the guy who’s working his ass off and tell the guy who’s not working

614
00:38:33,740 –> 00:38:37,380
to go get, let’s go move right and get going. Like, you know what I

615
00:38:37,380 –> 00:38:41,060
mean? Like. Well, the fundamental, the fundamental problem that I’ve had

616
00:38:41,300 –> 00:38:45,060
with, with ideas of,

617
00:38:47,540 –> 00:38:51,140
let me use a modern term, equity is,

618
00:38:51,380 –> 00:38:55,140
is there’s, there’s two fundamental things that are wrong underneath there

619
00:38:55,140 –> 00:38:58,180
that are never addressed. The first thing is,

620
00:38:59,220 –> 00:39:03,060
and I’m going to address it as a negative first, if you fundamentally

621
00:39:03,060 –> 00:39:06,020
believe that a meritocracy is a rigged game,

622
00:39:07,700 –> 00:39:10,020
you’re just not competent enough to win that game.

623
00:39:12,100 –> 00:39:15,220
And it may be that you’re not competent enough because you didn’t develop the skills,

624
00:39:15,540 –> 00:39:19,220
you don’t have the interest, you don’t have the education. Your parents

625
00:39:19,220 –> 00:39:22,900
never, never told you, you didn’t have the right pedigree,

626
00:39:23,630 –> 00:39:26,830
you didn’t get the right degree, the right credentialing, whatever the

627
00:39:26,830 –> 00:39:30,630
material reasons are. You think meritocracy is

628
00:39:30,630 –> 00:39:34,390
a rigged, and I’m putting that in air quotes system because the

629
00:39:34,390 –> 00:39:37,470
people with merit were competent enough to play that game and get to the top

630
00:39:37,470 –> 00:39:41,310
of it and you weren’t. I don’t know

631
00:39:41,310 –> 00:39:45,150
what to tell you. Pick a different game. There’s mult. One of

632
00:39:45,150 –> 00:39:48,310
the great things about the United States is we don’t live in a country with

633
00:39:48,310 –> 00:39:52,040
limited number of games to play. There are multiple

634
00:39:52,040 –> 00:39:55,880
games to play. So if I want to play the, I

635
00:39:55,880 –> 00:39:58,400
don’t know, I’m going to pick up something random here. If I want to pick,

636
00:39:58,400 –> 00:40:02,200
if I want to play the exterminator game, I can go

637
00:40:02,200 –> 00:40:05,840
be an exterminator. It doesn’t require a whole lot of education to be an exterminator.

638
00:40:05,840 –> 00:40:09,640
And I’m spraying around chemicals and I could probably win that game.

639
00:40:09,640 –> 00:40:12,800
I could probably become really competent at being an exterminator.

640
00:40:15,280 –> 00:40:19,040
And yet maybe I don’t want to win that game. And we

641
00:40:19,040 –> 00:40:22,280
don’t ever talk about that, by the way, out loud. We don’t talk about the

642
00:40:22,280 –> 00:40:25,440
idea that there are people with different temperaments and different ideas and different

643
00:40:25,440 –> 00:40:29,120
interests. And we need enough freedom for everybody to explore

644
00:40:29,120 –> 00:40:32,519
their interests without bumping into too much, into

645
00:40:32,519 –> 00:40:36,080
barriers and whatever. And even inside the exterminator

646
00:40:36,080 –> 00:40:39,760
game, there are people who never get past the spraying for

647
00:40:39,760 –> 00:40:43,570
bugs around your house level. And then there are people that go all

648
00:40:43,570 –> 00:40:47,290
the way to the top of the exterminator game and become multibillion dollar owners of

649
00:40:47,290 –> 00:40:51,130
exterminator companies. Okay? And that’s just one game.

650
00:40:51,690 –> 00:40:55,530
One game. There’s millions of games you could pick. And this is what we

651
00:40:55,530 –> 00:40:58,010
don’t tell kids. What we tell kids is you could be anything you want to

652
00:40:58,010 –> 00:41:01,130
be. And what we really mean is you could pick any game you want to

653
00:41:01,130 –> 00:41:04,930
play, but you have to be willing to get to the top of, or

654
00:41:04,930 –> 00:41:06,970
work to get to the top of the middle or stay at the bottom of

655
00:41:06,970 –> 00:41:10,820
whatever that game is. And that’s on you. That’s your decision. And my

656
00:41:10,820 –> 00:41:14,500
job as a parent and jobs of family and community is

657
00:41:14,500 –> 00:41:17,900
to prepare you to play whatever game you pick

658
00:41:18,140 –> 00:41:21,900
in the best possible way you can play it. That’s our job. So this is

659
00:41:21,900 –> 00:41:25,700
the first thing that those utopian ideas ignore is it confuses

660
00:41:25,700 –> 00:41:28,780
meritocracy with equal within, with

661
00:41:28,780 –> 00:41:32,460
inequality. That’s the first thing. And then the second

662
00:41:32,540 –> 00:41:36,270
thing that all these systems, even capitalism does this, but not to

663
00:41:36,270 –> 00:41:39,670
the egregious level that socialism and communism do.

664
00:41:39,910 –> 00:41:43,710
And even fascism, which is a whole other conversation. I’ll leave that aside for just

665
00:41:43,710 –> 00:41:47,510
a minute because that’s a term that’s been over overused for the last 10

666
00:41:47,510 –> 00:41:50,790
years. My God, you don’t even wouldn’t know what fascist was ever.

667
00:41:51,830 –> 00:41:55,590
Walked up and slapped him in handcuffs. Oh

668
00:41:55,590 –> 00:41:58,630
my God. It drives me crazy because words mean things.

669
00:42:00,110 –> 00:42:03,710
But in, in these isms,

670
00:42:03,710 –> 00:42:07,390
in these systems, the

671
00:42:07,470 –> 00:42:11,230
fact of the matter is human

672
00:42:11,310 –> 00:42:14,590
nature has to be taken into account. Right?

673
00:42:15,550 –> 00:42:18,990
And the closer you get to the pursuit of utopia,

674
00:42:20,190 –> 00:42:23,830
the less understanding your theory or ism has

675
00:42:23,830 –> 00:42:27,640
about human nature. Agreed.

676
00:42:27,960 –> 00:42:31,720
And so to Tom’s point about restaurants, I

677
00:42:31,720 –> 00:42:35,160
worked in restaurants for about a spit of a minute. Not as long as Tom,

678
00:42:35,160 –> 00:42:38,600
because I couldn’t handle it. I couldn’t deal with the, I couldn’t deal with the,

679
00:42:38,600 –> 00:42:42,160
with the, with the serving of the people. I couldn’t deal with the nastiness out

680
00:42:42,160 –> 00:42:45,880
front. I couldn’t deal with the low tips. I couldn’t deal with the

681
00:42:45,880 –> 00:42:48,840
people. The people in the back, actually, weirdly enough, were fine, probably if I never,

682
00:42:48,840 –> 00:42:51,120
if I just stayed in the back, I would have been fine because like all

683
00:42:51,120 –> 00:42:54,630
those guys were great. And I worked in like a Greek

684
00:42:54,630 –> 00:42:58,390
restaurant, so it was like fabulous. And I got good Greek food and that’s

685
00:42:58,390 –> 00:43:02,030
the whole reason why I worked there. But I was only there for a spit

686
00:43:02,030 –> 00:43:05,790
of A minute. And I was a dishwasher, too. So, like, I had the suckiest

687
00:43:05,790 –> 00:43:09,230
job possible ever. Right? And this is like before automatic

688
00:43:09,230 –> 00:43:12,590
dishwashers and all that. No, no, they do it by hand. And the old metal

689
00:43:12,590 –> 00:43:14,590
thing that, like, rattled, and then you put it in there and you had to

690
00:43:14,590 –> 00:43:17,350
hold it so it wouldn’t rattle a hole. And when the things came out, they

691
00:43:17,350 –> 00:43:20,990
were so hot you couldn’t touch them. I still have no

692
00:43:20,990 –> 00:43:24,650
feeling in my right finger and my left hand’s fingertips. I. I

693
00:43:24,650 –> 00:43:27,250
grabbed a pan out of the oven the other day without an oven mitt. My

694
00:43:27,250 –> 00:43:30,090
kids thought it was nuts. And I was like, oh, I didn’t realize I was

695
00:43:30,090 –> 00:43:32,850
holding it. I didn’t realize I was holding the hot pan.

696
00:43:35,170 –> 00:43:38,890
No joke, people. I will tell you. I

697
00:43:38,890 –> 00:43:42,130
was playing four different games at that time in my life, in my 20s, without

698
00:43:42,130 –> 00:43:44,690
going to college. College was not one of the games. I was in four different

699
00:43:44,690 –> 00:43:47,810
jobs in four different industries because I decided I wanted to play four different games.

700
00:43:47,970 –> 00:43:51,300
And the restaurant game, I only played for, like, I think nine months.

701
00:43:51,540 –> 00:43:55,340
And I was done. I was done with that game. I was there for

702
00:43:55,340 –> 00:43:59,140
10 years. Right, right. So guess what? Tom has more

703
00:43:59,140 –> 00:44:02,780
merit in that game and earned more money in that game than

704
00:44:02,780 –> 00:44:06,580
I. And you know what? I’m not crying about it. I’m not trying to

705
00:44:06,580 –> 00:44:10,220
make the outcomes between me and Tom the same on the restaurant

706
00:44:10,220 –> 00:44:13,980
game. Right, but that. Yeah, but

707
00:44:13,980 –> 00:44:16,980
okay, we. Again, we could probably have. I think we need to have like an

708
00:44:16,980 –> 00:44:20,820
eight-hour, we do session where we can go really in deep with all

709
00:44:20,820 –> 00:44:24,540
of this stuff because it really. It does blow my mind how, you

710
00:44:24,540 –> 00:44:27,220
know, and again, by the way, I was never one of those people. I was

711
00:44:27,220 –> 00:44:29,460
never one of those parents that looked at my kids and said, you can be

712
00:44:29,460 –> 00:44:32,980
whatever you want to be. I never said that to. To them once. What I

713
00:44:32,980 –> 00:44:36,820
did say, though, is if you. You. If you. You. If you

714
00:44:36,820 –> 00:44:40,180
pick and choose your battles, right, and work your ass off, you can be

715
00:44:40,180 –> 00:44:43,700
successful. That’s basically the way I said it. You can be

716
00:44:43,700 –> 00:44:47,420
successful at anything you choose. But you

717
00:44:47,420 –> 00:44:51,060
have to define what success looks like, too. Right? You can’t

718
00:44:51,060 –> 00:44:54,060
define success based on what somebody else’s definition is.

719
00:44:54,460 –> 00:44:58,220
Correct. Right. Well, and I’m always. I’m always on my kids. My kids

720
00:44:58,220 –> 00:45:01,300
would tell you this if any of them trotted through here. I’m always on them,

721
00:45:01,300 –> 00:45:05,140
on the basics. I think there’s just basics. So one

722
00:45:05,140 –> 00:45:08,700
of the things in our household, you cannot be defeated by basic math. That’s a

723
00:45:08,700 –> 00:45:11,740
mantra in My house. Like addition, subtraction, multiplication, division.

724
00:45:12,170 –> 00:45:15,930
Sorry, just. These are, these are table stakes. I’m currently

725
00:45:16,810 –> 00:45:20,570
in a. And this. And that would dramatize it too much.

726
00:45:20,570 –> 00:45:24,370
I’m currently in a ecumenical struggle with

727
00:45:24,370 –> 00:45:28,169
my 8-year-old about independent reading. Because he’s an 8-year-old and he doesn’t

728
00:45:28,169 –> 00:45:31,290
want to independently read. He’s bored by it because it’s not TV in his head,

729
00:45:31,290 –> 00:45:35,050
right? And I, between my

730
00:45:35,050 –> 00:45:38,830
wife and I were, we’re. We’re the hammer and sickle on this, right? And because

731
00:45:38,830 –> 00:45:41,870
you can’t be defeated by books. I mean, for God’s sakes, I wrote a book

732
00:45:41,870 –> 00:45:45,350
podcast. You can’t be defeated by books, kid. Like, you can’t. This is the

733
00:45:45,350 –> 00:45:48,990
concrete, this is the foundation. Because if you don’t have those

734
00:45:48,990 –> 00:45:52,710
things, in my opinion, if you don’t have basic reading skills

735
00:45:52,710 –> 00:45:56,270
and comprehension, by the way, and you don’t have basic math

736
00:45:56,590 –> 00:46:00,310
skills, because two plus two is always four, no matter

737
00:46:00,310 –> 00:46:03,870
how you feel about it, you will be defeated

738
00:46:05,050 –> 00:46:08,850
in the world. And there will be systems and technologies and

739
00:46:08,850 –> 00:46:12,650
people and processes that will push on you and that will try to

740
00:46:12,650 –> 00:46:15,450
convince you of things and you will be easily fooled.

741
00:46:17,210 –> 00:46:20,770
There’s no room in the world, I don’t think anymore for to go back to

742
00:46:20,770 –> 00:46:24,050
the draw horses from Animal Farm for just a moment for boxers and

743
00:46:24,050 –> 00:46:27,610
clovers. We just, we just don’t have the room in the world for them anymore.

744
00:46:28,650 –> 00:46:32,300
You know, be I will work harder is fine,

745
00:46:33,580 –> 00:46:36,940
but you have to have something underneath to help you also work smarter.

746
00:46:38,220 –> 00:46:41,940
And those are the two things. I always hated that phrase, work smarter, not harder.

747
00:46:41,940 –> 00:46:45,700
I’ve always hated that phrase because I honestly, I’ve always felt

748
00:46:45,700 –> 00:46:49,460
you should work smarter and harder. Like, you should not look for the

749
00:46:49,460 –> 00:46:53,140
easy way out because if you do, in taking shortcuts in any facet of your

750
00:46:53,140 –> 00:46:56,860
life, it doesn’t even matter what it is, you’re not getting the

751
00:46:56,860 –> 00:47:00,140
results that you expect. I need to introduce you to some mechanics that I know

752
00:47:00,140 –> 00:47:03,940
because they say that all the time. Every mechanic I know, every car

753
00:47:03,940 –> 00:47:07,540
mechanic I know, every guy I’ve ever met is a car mechanic. He says

754
00:47:07,540 –> 00:47:11,380
work harder and smarter. No, no, he’s always, they’re always. I went to, I went

755
00:47:11,380 –> 00:47:15,140
to college with a whole ton of car mechanics

756
00:47:15,540 –> 00:47:19,140
because the technical college that the, the state university supported was.

757
00:47:19,300 –> 00:47:22,220
And they would live in the residence halls and the dorms and all that with

758
00:47:22,220 –> 00:47:25,070
us. And so I was talking to these guys all the time and

759
00:47:25,870 –> 00:47:29,510
they were always joking about working smarter, not harder. They

760
00:47:29,510 –> 00:47:31,390
always were and these were,

761
00:47:33,790 –> 00:47:37,390
weirdly enough, all those guys graduated and they all wanted to make

762
00:47:37,390 –> 00:47:38,990
six figures within two years

763
00:47:40,910 –> 00:47:44,670
leading the technical college. I wasn’t surprised. I was like, oh well, looks

764
00:47:44,670 –> 00:47:47,630
like I picked poorly in my degree.

765
00:47:49,390 –> 00:47:53,060
That’s fine, that’s fine. Eventually I got my six figures. It’s

766
00:47:53,060 –> 00:47:56,140
fine. It all worked out in the end. Okay, Edible Farm,

767
00:47:57,980 –> 00:47:59,020
let’s close on this.

768
00:48:05,420 –> 00:48:09,060
So, okay, last question here for leaders. And I think

769
00:48:09,060 –> 00:48:12,740
we’ve kind of talked a little bit about what leaders can learn from, from this,

770
00:48:12,740 –> 00:48:15,340
from a book like this, from, from a small book like this.

771
00:48:18,950 –> 00:48:22,150
And obviously I would encourage you to pick up animal farm. It’s 125 pages. You

772
00:48:22,150 –> 00:48:25,950
can read it to your kids. There’s nothing offensive in it. I mean

773
00:48:25,950 –> 00:48:28,950
the psychological horror of it is probably,

774
00:48:29,350 –> 00:48:33,110
probably more, more interesting than anything else. So your kids won’t

775
00:48:33,110 –> 00:48:36,190
pick up on it. So you can listen to it in the car. Oh, by

776
00:48:36,190 –> 00:48:39,870
the way, Andy Serkis, the guy who played Gollum in

777
00:48:39,870 –> 00:48:43,600
Lord of the Rings and has done a bunch of other different roles in movies,

778
00:48:43,920 –> 00:48:47,520
directed an Animal Farm movie that is now out.

779
00:48:48,000 –> 00:48:51,040
And by the way, the first Animal Farm movie, just so you know, this is

780
00:48:51,040 –> 00:48:54,840
an interesting piece of trivia that I found when, when

781
00:48:54,840 –> 00:48:57,760
putting this together. The first Animal Farm movie

782
00:48:58,400 –> 00:49:02,160
was made in 1954 and it was commissioned by the CIA

783
00:49:02,880 –> 00:49:05,760
as an anti communist animated film

784
00:49:07,450 –> 00:49:10,130
or. Well, would have watched that one, but. I didn’t know it existed. I thought

785
00:49:10,130 –> 00:49:13,850
it was interesting. Did you see the 1999 one that was done

786
00:49:13,850 –> 00:49:17,570
with Kelsey Grammar? Patrick Stewart was in

787
00:49:17,570 –> 00:49:21,330
it. Like, yeah, I didn’t know that existed. Yeah, 1999, there

788
00:49:21,330 –> 00:49:24,370
was another one that I, I watched. It was a little different. They did it,

789
00:49:24,370 –> 00:49:28,210
you know, they took some liberties with it, but it makes the point. It

790
00:49:28,210 –> 00:49:30,930
still makes the point. I’m curious now about the new one that just came out

791
00:49:30,930 –> 00:49:33,330
though, because I’m curious to see how that one came out. I didn’t see it

792
00:49:33,330 –> 00:49:36,700
yet, but I, I will watch it, just so you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

793
00:49:38,460 –> 00:49:41,980
Well I put, I do have a link in the show

794
00:49:41,980 –> 00:49:45,780
notes to the CIA 1954 version, which you can

795
00:49:45,780 –> 00:49:49,300
get on YouTube. So if you want to see what the Central Intelligence

796
00:49:49,300 –> 00:49:52,700
Agency was trying to do back in the day, you might want to check that

797
00:49:52,700 –> 00:49:56,060
out or. Well, by the way, long since passed away by that point and his

798
00:49:56,060 –> 00:49:59,620
widow went ahead and worked with the CIA on that.

799
00:49:59,620 –> 00:50:03,290
Anyway, so final thoughts on Animal Farm. What can leaders take

800
00:50:03,290 –> 00:50:06,650
from, from this book? We only covered, we barely covered a piece of it, but

801
00:50:06,650 –> 00:50:09,970
it’s a short book. So what can leaders take from this book? Tom?

802
00:50:10,610 –> 00:50:14,450
I, I, I think that I’m going to make this really simple. Really, really simple.

803
00:50:14,930 –> 00:50:17,970
Just don’t let power go to your head. Just because you are the owner of

804
00:50:17,970 –> 00:50:21,770
a company, just because you are the leader, the quote unquote leader, doesn’t mean you

805
00:50:21,770 –> 00:50:23,970
can act like Napoleon the pig.

806
00:50:25,900 –> 00:50:29,340
Because, I mean, let’s face it, he was just not a nice pig.

807
00:50:30,300 –> 00:50:33,820
He, he ran Snowball right out of town. Right out of town. Yeah. He

808
00:50:33,900 –> 00:50:37,180
declared him an enemy of the state. Not in those words, but, you know, whatever.

809
00:50:38,140 –> 00:50:41,859
An enemy of the farm. And then eventually, of course, well, anyway,

810
00:50:41,859 –> 00:50:45,500
it doesn’t matter, bro. Workers into the ground killed Boxer.

811
00:50:45,740 –> 00:50:49,580
Like, you know what I mean? Like, just don’t, just don’t be that person.

812
00:50:49,900 –> 00:50:53,660
Like I said, like we talked about earlier in the episode here, just, you

813
00:50:53,660 –> 00:50:57,460
know, listen again. I’ll use the restaurant industry as a, as an example. When I

814
00:50:57,460 –> 00:51:00,420
was, I was a general manager of a restaurant, I ran a restaurant with 65

815
00:51:00,420 –> 00:51:04,180
people that worked for me. And there was never a day that I wouldn’t

816
00:51:04,180 –> 00:51:07,740
pick up a mop and mop the floor or pick up a broom and sweep

817
00:51:07,740 –> 00:51:11,540
the floor, clean, whatever needed to be cleaned. I would

818
00:51:11,540 –> 00:51:15,220
help Hasan do those dishes if it needed to be done because I never

819
00:51:15,220 –> 00:51:18,980
wanted the employees to say anything that I,

820
00:51:19,660 –> 00:51:23,460
I wanted to be able to look somebody in the eye and honestly be able

821
00:51:23,460 –> 00:51:27,300
to say I would do it myself if I had the time, but could

822
00:51:27,300 –> 00:51:29,940
you do me a favor and go wipe that up or clean that up or

823
00:51:29,940 –> 00:51:33,620
mop that up. And they, they knew it for a fact. Like,

824
00:51:33,620 –> 00:51:37,100
they knew it for a fact because they saw me do it. Right? So, and

825
00:51:37,100 –> 00:51:39,940
I’m not suggesting if you own the company, you have to go scrub toilets like,

826
00:51:39,940 –> 00:51:42,580
you know, the micro, you know, you don’t have to be Mike row and go

827
00:51:42,580 –> 00:51:46,340
do dirty jobs. I get that you’ve worked your way up to owning your

828
00:51:46,340 –> 00:51:49,980
company and go do that, but that also doesn’t mean need. It

829
00:51:49,980 –> 00:51:53,540
also means that you don’t need to be Napoleon. Napoleon the pig.

830
00:51:54,180 –> 00:51:57,380
There you go. Not Napoleon Bonaparte. Well,

831
00:51:58,100 –> 00:51:59,700
yeah, not Napoleon Bonaparte.

832
00:52:02,820 –> 00:52:05,940
All right, well, I think that’s a good space to stop. So

833
00:52:07,220 –> 00:52:10,340
thank you for listening to the leadership lessons from the Great Books podcast. And with

834
00:52:10,340 –> 00:52:13,140
that, well, we’re out.