Leadership Lessons From The Great Books – The Republic of Plato w/Tom Libby

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Hello. My name is Jesan Sorrells, and this is the Leadership

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Lessons from the Great Books podcast, episode number

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90. In regular counting, you’re 10 episodes

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away from our big, big one-hundredth

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show with our no

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longer a semi regular co host. Now he’s just the co host

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Tom Libby. How are you doing Tom? I’m

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doing fantastic, Jesan, thank you, I love the new introduction, it’s so much

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better. Well, you’re no longer semi regular, you’re no

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longer just wandering in off the street.

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I’m just a fixture now. Now you’re just a fixture. You’re now just a picture.

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Yeah. You’re just in a picture on the wall. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like, like the,

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Like the posters behind me in the video, spot gas, which you can’t

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see if you’re listening to the audio and you should be watching the video on

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YouTube, by the way. So today,

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we are going to open up. This is now January of 2024,

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so I’m gonna time stamp date this podcast right here.

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This is January 8, 2024, and we’re going to open our

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big election year and everything else that’s going to be going

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on during 2024,

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with a book that focuses,

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us as listeners and as readers and as leaders

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on the platonic roots of the democratic ideals

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about justice, leadership, character, and society

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that have built the west and that have heavily influenced,

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America, so heavily influenced America and so

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heavily influenced, thinking about America that we

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don’t even think about this book anymore. It’s

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one of those books kind of like Shakespeare or the Bible that

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we just sort of accept as being

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part of the general conversation.

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Those ideals and their impact on Writers leaders’ conceptions of

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themselves and their place in the chaotic now

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of algorithms, public distrust of leadership and the

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growing sense that the, quote unquote high watermark of the

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destructive fourth turning in America. And I’ll Explain more about that as we

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go along, maybe behind us in the United States

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also are going to be the focus of our conversation today.

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So today we will be reading selections

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from the Republic of Plato.

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Now I’m not going to go into the authorship

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of the book because I don’t really need to, it

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actually stands alone, and you can find many, many open

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source versions of the Republic of Plato,

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online. It has been studied and read for

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the last 2,500 years ever since it was published

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by Plato, who was a student of the philosopher Sorrells.

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And it is a Socratic, perspective

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on a whole lot of things. And we’re gonna cover a lot of those or

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many of those today. Now we will not be reading the whole book because

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we can’t, there’s just no

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possible way to do that. And so we will be reading selections from that, and

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we will be getting Tom’s insights on The Republic of Plato, a book that,

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a book that he did not read in college, I believe. Is that correct? That

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is correct. I’ve read excerpts of it throughout my

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My, you know, you know, expanded life, but it’s

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expansive. I don’t know whether I’m ready for it. But,

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I have read excerpts of it, but I’ve not read a cover to cover. No.

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Okay. Well, fortunately for Tom, I read a cover to

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cover in college, and, and, the book,

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I won’t say it deeply influenced me, but it did definitely helped me make

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sense of many things that I saw. In the culture

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and in society. And some of the chaos that,

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Well, some of the chaos that I was observing when I was in college 20

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years ago. And, it is also a book and this is going

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to be part of the focus of our podcast this year. It is a book

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that lays the foundation for us to be able to begin to talk

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about solutions rather than constantly noodling and

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philosophizing on the nature of problems.

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Which I do believe we’ve done quite enough that.

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So I’m going to go ahead and open from the Republic of Plato.

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The translation that I have, and again, you can go pick up any translation

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floating around out there. All of them will be basically the same. And of

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course, there are open source translations all over the Internet, that you

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can go and get. And so I’m going to open up with,

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chapter 6 in the Republic, where

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Socrates is laying out his perspective on the

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rudiments of social organization. So we’re going to start there

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today. Now, the

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way that this book is structured. And I was explaining this to Tom when,

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Well, before we started, before I hit the record button is this book is

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structured as a conversation, Writers? So, 1 person is

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talking to another Jesan, and you know,

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traditionally the way a philosophical Argument is constructed when 1 person’s

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talking to another. There are no quotations. It’s not

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drama dramatized. You know, it’s not Shakespeare. It’s a it’s

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a philosophical or a Socratic conversation between 2 folks.

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So I want you to imagine as you listen to this in the theater of

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your mind, I want you to imagine 2 individuals in

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great ancient Greek robes, sitting on top of hill.

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I was talking to each other. Was it Was it supposed to be assumed that

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Plato himself was talking to Socrates in this? I I I I saw

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that somewhere that it was supposed to be, Mhmm. Like that that that you were

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supposed to make that assumption as you read it. Is that something that you’ve got

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us the same? Okay. Alright. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And, or, or the

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very minimum that Plato was was sitting at Socrates’ feet

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as he was going back and forth with all these folks, eavesdropping

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on the conversation. Right? Got it. Yeah. And so

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the way in which this book is structured is structured like that.

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And so the excerpts are going to are going to reflect that as we go

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today. Alright. So I’m gonna open up with, with

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Socrates speaking, to a, to a fellow named

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Glaucon, right, in, in chapter 6 on the rudiments

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of social organization. I will tell

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you, we think of justice as a quality that may exist in a whole community,

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as well as in an individual. And the community is the bigger of the 2.

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Possibly then we may find justice there in larger proportions easier

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to make out. So I suggest that we should begin by inquiring

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what justice means in a state, then we can

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go to look for its counterpart on a smaller scale in the individual.

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That seems like a good plan. He agreed. Well, then I

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continued the, I meaning Socrates. Suppose we

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imagine a state coming into being before our eyes. We might then be

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in be able to watch the growth of justice or of injustice

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within it. When that is done, we may hope it will be easier to find

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what we are looking for much easier. Shall we try then to

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carry out this scheme? I fancy it will be no light undertaking, so you would

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better think twice. No need for that, said Ade Montes. Don’t waste

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any more time. My notion is said I,

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that a state comes into existence because no individual is self sufficing.

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We all have many needs, but perhaps you can suggest a different origin for the

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foundation of a community. No, I agree with you. So

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having all these needs, we call into, We call in one another’s help to satisfy

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our various requirements. And when we have collected a number of helpers and associates

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to live together in one place, we call that settlement estate.

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Yes. So if 1 man gives another, what he has to give an exchange for

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what he can get, it is because each finds that to do so is for

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his own advantage. Certainly by the way, pause, this is

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exactly how sales books. Even 2,500 years ago,

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back to the book. Certainly very well said I. Now let us build upon our

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imaginary state from the beginning. Apparently it will always exist just to

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our needs. The first and greatest need being the provision of food to keep

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us alive. Next, we’ll want a house, and thirdly, such a

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things as clothing. True. How will our state be able

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to supply all of these demands? We shall need at least 1 man to be

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a farmer, another a builder, and a third a weaver. Will that do or shall

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we add a shoemaker and 1 or 2 more to provide for our personal

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wants? By all means. The minimum state then

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will consist of 4 or 5 men. Apparently

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now here’s the further point is each one of them to bring the product of

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his work into a common Tom. Should our 1 farmer, for example, provide food

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enough for 4 people and spend the whole of his working time in producing corn

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so as to share with the rest? Or should he take no notice of them

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and spend only a quarter of his time on growing just enough corn for himself

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and dividing the other 3 quarters between building his house, We think his

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clothes and making his shoes so as to save the trouble of sharing with others

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and attend himself to all his own concerns.

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The first plan might be easier, replied AdeMantis. That may

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very well be so, said I, for as you spoke, it occurred to me for

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one thing that no 2 people are born Accly Alike. There are innate

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differences which fit them for different occupations. I

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agree. And will a man do better working at many trades or

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keeping to 1 only keeping to 1. And there

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is another point, obviously work may be ruined If you let the right time go

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by the workman must wait upon the work. It will not wait upon his leisure

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and allow itself to be done in a spare moment. So the conclusion is that

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More things will be produced so the work will be more easily and better done

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when every man is set free from all of their occupations to do at the

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right Tom. The one thing for which he is naturally fitted.

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That is certainly true. So, we shall need more than 4 citizens

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then Tom supply all those necessities we mentioned. You see, Enomantus,

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if the farmer is to have a good plow and spade and other tools, he

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will not make them himself. No more will the builder and weaver and

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shoemaker make all the implements They need so quite a number of carpenters

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and Smiths and other crafts who must be listed. Our miniature state is beginning to

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grow. It is Still, it would

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not be very large even when we have added cowherds and shepherds to provide

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for the farmers with oxen for the plow and the builders leaders well as the

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farmers with the drawed animals and the weavers and shoemakers with wool and leather.

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No, but it will not be very small either. And

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yet, again, it will be next to impossible to plant

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our city in a territory where it will Libby no imports. So there

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will have to be still another set of people to fetch what it needs from

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other countries. There will. Moreover, if these

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agents take with them nothing than those other countries acquire, They will return as empty

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handed as they went. So besides everything wanted for consumption at home, we

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must produce enough goods of the right kind for the foreigners whom we depend on

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to supply us. That will mean increasing the number of farmers and craftsmen.

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Yes. And then there are these agents who are to import and

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export all kinds of books. Merchants, We call

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them, we must have them. And if they are to do business overseas, we shall

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need quite a number of ship owners and others who know about that branch of

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trading. We shall again in the

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city itself, how are the various sets of producers to exchange their products? That was

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our object. You will remember informing community And so laying the foundation

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of our state, obviously they must buy and

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sell That will mean having a marketplace

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and a currency to serve as token for purposes of exchange. Certainly.

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Now suppose a farmer or an artisan brings some of his produce to market,

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at a time when no one is there who wants to exchange with him. Is

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he there to sit idle when he might be at work? No, he

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replied. There are people who have been We’ve seen it opening here for their services.

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In well ordered communities, they are generally men not strong enough to be of

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use in any other occupation. They have to stay where they are in the

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marketplace and take goods for money from those who want to sell

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and money for goods from those who want to buy.

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That then is the reason why our city must include a class of shopkeepers.

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So we call these people who sit still in the marketplace to buy and sell

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in contrast with merchants who travel to other countries. Quite

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so. There are also the services of yet another class

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who have the physical strength for heavy work, Though on intellectual

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grounds, they are hardly worth including in our society. Hired

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laborers, as we call them, because they sell the use of their strength for

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wages. They will go to make up our population.

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Yes. Well, Adi Montes, how is our state now grown to its

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full size? Perhaps. Then where shall it find

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then where in it shall we find justice or injustice?

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If they have come in with one of the elements we have been considering, Can

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you say which one? I have no idea

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Writers, unless it be somewhere in their dealings with one another.

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You may be right, I answered. Anyhow, it is a

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question which we shall have Tom face.

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And it’s a question we’ve been facing for the last 25 100 years ever

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since Socrates ran that thought experiment on Anemantis

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and, and Glaucon sitting outside underneath the tree.

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We haven’t gotten any better books, and this is the irony of

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the Republic of Plato. The

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arguments that Royal our society and Royal our culture

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arguments around. And this is why I started with justice or injustice,

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but really begin with the formation of the state, really

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begin with our human

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struggle on what does justice actually mean, which is why

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the republic starts with this concept of justice, moves backward to the state,

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and then moves forward as we are going to move forward today towards what of

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man, and it was all men. Sorry, ladies. What

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type of man will be in charge of the state? We’re gonna

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talk about that because those ideas, what

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type of man, who’s going to be in charge of the state, what is the

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state comprised of, And of course, what is justice and

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injustice have been be doubling us as human

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beings, but most notoriously been be doubling us in the

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west for the last 2,500 years.

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And of course, Albert Einstein said upon the creation, notoriously

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upon the creation of the atomic bomb, that the solution to this

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problem lies not in the atom and not in technology or

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science, but in the human heart,

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which is something that Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle

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were all groping towards, but couldn’t

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quite grasp. Not until somebody else came along a

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little bit later, but I’ll leave that aside for just a

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moment. So, Tom, I’m

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going to open up the election year of 2024

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with what is the state? What is justice? What

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is injustice? What is virtue and knowledge? How do we

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locate this in people? And so I’m gonna go all

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Socratic on you here, and I’m going to

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propose that we, on the podcast today, We Develop A

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State. But, of course, it will have old human

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problems with new technological chaos in it.

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I think I think one of my I think one of my favorite, the one

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one of the few excerpts and one of the favorites I read, like, so

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when Sorrells was asking, I forget who it was asked, but it, like

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actually, I think he asked several people. I don’t think this was 1 conversation with

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1 person, but, Like, before you do all of that, can you,

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like because essentially, this this is

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predicated on on justice or injustice, right? Most of this is all predicated

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on So he and and he asks people to

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define it, right, so define justice. And there was every time

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somebody came to him with an answer that they thought was sufficient, He would

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rip it apart. Right? Like, he would rip it and say, that can’t be defined

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as justice because of this and this and you have that and that. And and,

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again, I I don’t I can’t quote it, so I I don’t know the verbatims,

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but I will tell you they’re there. They’re in there, and I I can’t remember.

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But but so So how

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do we how do we go forward with even having this conversation if we don’t

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even know what that definition is first. Right? So Right? One of the one of

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the things that that, I I think back to

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a statement that a that a lawyer, an attorney said to me one

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time Going through, we’ll just call

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it a a a a negative state in in in the legal field,

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right? And he said he said to me,

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There’s only 2 outcomes you can ask for. Anything else

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anything else is unfair. Right? So he said either Book

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parties are unhappy or both parties are

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very happy. Anything else means that it didn’t work.

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Right. Right. So I’m trying to I I try to think of that in the

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same, like, cadence as what Socrates was talking about

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justice. And so if you think about, It’s

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essentially agreed upon fairness, right? Like, so something

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justice is basically A predetermined

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set of fairnessness, so to speak, right? So,

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you know, I I I bring if you think about what he was talking

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about with, the start start of his state where I’m gonna be a

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farmer. I have all these crops. Have enough crops to feed my family, and I

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have this leftover. I can trade them away. And as long as I’m

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happy with what I get in return, That’s fair and just. Right? Mhmm.

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But it’s not for it’s not for you to decide what’s fair and just,

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it’s for the 2 parties involved to decide what’s fair and just. Mhmm. So

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it’s all very individualistic. It is. Which, by the way,

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is is one of the knocks that I hear When people start

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talking about socialism in our in our current government and world,

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in in in in country, right? Like, we want all this we want all

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this socialism, but If just if

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justice and fairness is determined between the 2 parties at hand,

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then how can you expect the entire village or the entire state to be

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okay With the same justice that you’re okay with. That’s why

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it doesn’t work. Right? That’s that’s why we haven’t been able to figure

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this out yet. And and and by the way, the same rule

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applies if you’re talking about the 2 parties

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being myself And the state government or myself and the local

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government or myself and the police officer that just pulled me

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over. It it’s the 2, Whatever the 2 parties are defined

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as, but that doesn’t go outside of that conversation and

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that those 2 parties. Mhmm. So my my

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the way that I interact with our government and the way that you interact with

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our government are two different things. Right. So how do you your

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definition of justice and mine that’s why Socrates could never get the real answer from

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anybody. Right. Well, and that’s why also he was notorious to

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everybody. He was notorious for walking around

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saying that well, not notorious, but, you know,

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claiming that he knew nothing. Yeah.

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Yeah. Which, you know, Plato and subsequently Aristotle,

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mostly Plato, latest at the feet of Plato. Plato,

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you know, defined that as

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a species of wisdom, which we’re gonna talk about today also on the podcast. Right?

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How do you get to wisdom? Because

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the the idea that there was a

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definitive answer to these questions,

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doesn’t exist, and yet and this

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is the old the other irony.

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Socrates was put on trial

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and and and took the hemlock, by the way,

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volunteered to take the hemlock because he was considered to be a

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gadfly among the young who was disrupting the state.

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By walking around claiming he didn’t know and asking a bunch of prodding

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questions that drove people crazy. And you could, and by the way, you pick up

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some of that tension in the Republic, you know, you pick up some of that

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tension where people, particularly Glaucon, at the beginning of the

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first 2 chapters, is very frustrated

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with Socrates constantly poking

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him and asking him basically variations of the same

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question in order to get to clarity.

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This reminds me if if anybody has ever raised a kid, this

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is this is the this is the 3 year old. This is 3 year old.

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Hey. Hey. Don’t touch that. Why? Well, because you’re gonna hurt if you touch

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that. Well, why? Well, because the knife is sharp. Well, why? Because we need

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sharp knives. Why? Like, they just It’s infuriating. Right?

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This is this is Sorrells was a 3 year old.

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And he’d probably be okay with that, actually. You’re right, like, that’s it, Steve, like,

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yeah, you’re exactly right.

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Well, and when you think about sort

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of his dialogic way of talking. It’s the

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the Socratic method. Right? His way of teaching, teaching through questioning.

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That is something that quite frankly a lot of people struggle

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with. I think there was a rare moment in the west, And I

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would maybe put it in the era of Victorian England,

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maybe, where that was actually sort of accepted

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and sort of viewed as a as a as an erudite way

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of learning or an erudite way of thinking, but that’s

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all gone. This is dead as gone as dead as dead

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and as gone as the Victorians are. And

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We are we are back Tom, not back to, we have returned

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to the Jesan. And the mean is don’t ask me questions,

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just accept the answer. When I give you the answer for what justice is, don’t

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ask me any questions. Yeah. Or or when

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or you or on the opposite, When I Defined What Injustice is, Don’t You

357
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Dare Question Me. Yeah. It’s

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that, I just had the the,

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Like, I’ll you know, your opinion is what I is what I say it is,

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like, that kind of scenario. That that’s that’s like, I

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I I I remember with my uncle, it was

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it was basically my uncle’s definition of the military. Right? When we went into the

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military, he goes, I said, what was what’s it like being in the military? He

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00:23:07.005 –> 00:23:10.445
goes, my my what’s it like being in the military? It’s very simple. They tell

365
00:23:10.445 –> 00:23:13.985
you your opinion and you agree to it. That that’s it.

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Well, it is, it is the whole, it’s the whole

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idea of, I’m even just doing, and

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it is the thing that befuddles folks sometimes about this podcast. It’s

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the whole thing about thinking,

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right? And and, you know, I

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kinda opened up with saying, you know, we’re not going to continue to

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philosophize about the nature of problems and we’re not.

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Because I do think that at a certain point Tom paraphrase

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from Billy and Murphy as Robert Oppenheimer in Christopher

375
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Nolan’s great film, Oppenheimer. At a certain point, you do have to move from theory

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to practice. Who just won a Golden Globe, by the way. Yes. I

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00:23:55.480 –> 00:23:59.195
did see that. I that does but that doesn’t bode well for the

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future. I don’t think he’s gonna win an Oscar because people win Golden Globe. When

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we lose the Golden Globe, they don’t win Oscars. They don’t they don’t win Oscars.

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It’s gonna be the Barbie movie or some nonsense anyway.

381
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Yeah. Anyway,

382
00:24:15.305 –> 00:24:19.145
so I, but I, but I, I, so I think that while you

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have a lot of words, we have a modern, I actually said this today

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in a different context to a bunch of different people. We’ve

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00:24:26.710 –> 00:24:29.530
had 30 years of an explosion of words

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digitally, Just the word number of words that have

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been thrust into the cultural zeitgeist, not just in America, but

388
00:24:37.445 –> 00:24:39.625
globally has exploded. It’s been ridiculous.

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But I’m not sure that those words mean anything.

390
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And that’s the thing you kind of get to when you read Socrates

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because at a certain point, and by the way, you also get there when you

392
00:24:56.375 –> 00:25:00.140
read the vibe or when you read Shakespeare, right? When you read these, these,

393
00:25:00.200 –> 00:25:03.880
these cornerstone books of Western

394
00:25:03.880 –> 00:25:07.265
thinking, You get to this idea

395
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that maybe all the talking that’s going

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00:25:10.845 –> 00:25:13.025
on is meaningless noise.

397
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And maybe that would have been something that Socrates would have been frustrated with as

398
00:25:17.600 –> 00:25:21.040
well. Because are you truly getting to any insights here or you just

399
00:25:21.040 –> 00:25:22.660
blabbing to to blab?

400
00:25:28.205 –> 00:25:31.565
I mean, we as a species just enjoy to hear ourselves talk, so I think

401
00:25:31.565 –> 00:25:35.090
you’re just blabbing the blab. Like, I think that that you’re right, but that’s but

402
00:25:35.090 –> 00:25:38.930
that’s par for the course when it comes to humanity. Like, but Tom

403
00:25:38.930 –> 00:25:42.565
most people just like Like like right now, I’m not

404
00:25:42.565 –> 00:25:45.705
letting you interrupt me because I just like here no, I’m just kidding. I’m kidding.

405
00:25:45.845 –> 00:25:49.605
Like, but but in reality, it is like a human thing, right?

406
00:25:49.605 –> 00:25:53.260
Like, do you like Even people, I I introverts, people who

407
00:25:53.260 –> 00:25:56.299
don’t like to interact with other people, but if you are 1 on 1 with

408
00:25:56.299 –> 00:25:59.394
them and you ask them a question, they’ll run off For quite a while talking

409
00:25:59.394 –> 00:26:00.934
about whatever they wanna talk about.

410
00:26:03.315 –> 00:26:07.130
I picked up a book, over the holidays, And we’ll go back

411
00:26:07.130 –> 00:26:09.130
to the book here in a minute. We’ll go back to the republic in a

412
00:26:09.130 –> 00:26:12.670
minute here, but, picked up a book over the holidays called The Art of Listening.

413
00:26:12.970 –> 00:26:16.515
It’s a sales book. Okay? And,

414
00:26:16.575 –> 00:26:20.255
and the structure of the book it’s

415
00:26:20.255 –> 00:26:23.960
written from the perspective of an automotive essays Jesan.

416
00:26:24.097 –> 00:26:27.880
Writers? Who’s a car dealer, basically. And it’s teaching it’s a book that teach teaching

417
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car dealers how to listen rather than talk. And weirdly enough, it was

418
00:26:31.639 –> 00:26:35.265
written, a couple years ago, but it seems like it was written for an

419
00:26:35.265 –> 00:26:39.025
audience in the 19 fifties. Yeah. So I

420
00:26:39.025 –> 00:26:42.669
don’t know what’s going on there, but The

421
00:26:42.690 –> 00:26:46.169
author emphasizes that if you listen to

422
00:26:46.169 –> 00:26:49.929
people, you will be able to figure out what they want and give it to

423
00:26:49.929 –> 00:26:53.585
them. And that that is the most

424
00:26:53.585 –> 00:26:56.805
important part of selling, not constantly talking.

425
00:26:59.390 –> 00:27:03.070
You’re a sales guy. What do you think of that theory? I

426
00:27:03.070 –> 00:27:06.830
actually teach it all the time, like, almost almost verbatim, and I’m I I

427
00:27:06.830 –> 00:27:10.655
don’t I I’ve I know the book now, but I’ve been training

428
00:27:10.655 –> 00:27:14.435
salespeople for almost 20 years and that book wasn’t around when I first started,

429
00:27:15.470 –> 00:27:18.930
But but the philosophy was, and we were always told, you know,

430
00:27:19.390 –> 00:27:22.510
you know, the, you know, you have 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason.

431
00:27:22.510 –> 00:27:25.915
You’re supposed to listen twice as much as you talk. Like, that’s a

432
00:27:26.315 –> 00:27:29.975
essays, like, 101 kinda thing. So the

433
00:27:29.975 –> 00:27:33.495
problem lies in where the, like, where the magic

434
00:27:33.495 –> 00:27:37.029
happens is Knowing when or

435
00:27:37.029 –> 00:27:40.710
or knowing what you’re listening to, making making sure that

436
00:27:40.710 –> 00:27:44.495
you’re actually Paying attention to it. See, that’s

437
00:27:44.495 –> 00:27:48.015
the thing. Most people think of listening as just not talking and that’s not the

438
00:27:48.015 –> 00:27:51.800
same thing. Like, actually listening, Listening to understand,

439
00:27:52.100 –> 00:27:55.700
listening to have, an

440
00:27:55.700 –> 00:27:59.320
actual, like, gifted response

441
00:27:59.700 –> 00:28:03.445
rather than Listening to simply respond,

442
00:28:03.541 –> 00:28:07.285
writers? Like, there’s a big difference behind that, and you you

443
00:28:07.285 –> 00:28:11.010
you can’t sell anything without Talking, like that just doesn’t happen. So you have to

444
00:28:11.010 –> 00:28:14.770
be able to speak to people and and and understand and be able Tom

445
00:28:14.770 –> 00:28:18.405
to Tom express to them that you’re giving them what they

446
00:28:18.405 –> 00:28:21.924
want, there’s an art to that. But I do think you definitely need to

447
00:28:21.924 –> 00:28:25.740
listen a lot more than you speak in essays, for sure. That’s That’s that’s

448
00:28:25.740 –> 00:28:27.360
been around for a very long time.

449
00:28:30.460 –> 00:28:32.400
Wonder what Socrates would think of that.

450
00:28:34.745 –> 00:28:38.185
I think you would like it only from one perspective. The here’s here’s here’s the

451
00:28:38.425 –> 00:28:42.049
because, again, in in sales, when you’re you’re taught to You’re

452
00:28:42.049 –> 00:28:45.429
taught to you’re taught to you’re taught to jab. Right? Like, so

453
00:28:45.809 –> 00:28:49.490
meaning, you ask a question, the customer gives you the answer rather

454
00:28:49.490 –> 00:28:53.154
than responding with, Oh, you wanted this is what you

455
00:28:53.154 –> 00:28:56.514
want, this is what we got. Right? Like, instead of you jab, you ask

456
00:28:56.514 –> 00:29:00.260
them a follow-up question and more in-depth, Well, you asked, like,

457
00:29:00.260 –> 00:29:04.020
you just continue on a path of these short questions to just try

458
00:29:04.020 –> 00:29:07.860
to get them to explain more and more of themselves and their thinking

459
00:29:07.860 –> 00:29:11.225
to you. I think Socrates I think this is what he did anyway.

460
00:29:11.285 –> 00:29:15.125
Socrates was the 1st salesperson on planet. Yes. He

461
00:29:15.125 –> 00:29:18.880
just he did the same thing. He needled And jabbed and stuck it in

462
00:29:18.880 –> 00:29:22.480
there and just wanted to pull out more and more and more and more data

463
00:29:22.480 –> 00:29:25.460
from people. He was that’s all he was looking for. He was looking for fodder.

464
00:29:25.635 –> 00:29:29.415
Like, he was just looking for that that just whatever

465
00:29:29.475 –> 00:29:33.315
he could put down on paper to to get people to to get fired

466
00:29:33.315 –> 00:29:36.570
up. So so, Okay. So was

467
00:29:36.710 –> 00:29:40.250
Socrates’ death the ultimate death of a salesman? Probably,

468
00:29:40.390 –> 00:29:43.544
yes. Like,

469
00:29:44.424 –> 00:29:48.105
well, it’s hard to use the death of a Sandler salesperson in my opinion. No.

470
00:29:48.105 –> 00:29:51.544
I’m just Wow. Wow. It’s all of our it’s all of our Sandler sales are

471
00:29:51.544 –> 00:29:54.880
out there. We love you. No, no, because like I I had this conversation with,

472
00:29:54.880 –> 00:29:58.580
like, there’s a, the methodology behind, Sandler is to,

473
00:29:58.640 –> 00:30:02.315
it it is, that is the methodology is to keep prodding and, but but But

474
00:30:02.315 –> 00:30:05.835
here’s the here’s the clear the clear difference from what I teach and what Sandler

475
00:30:05.835 –> 00:30:09.595
teaches. If somebody clearly tells you a a

476
00:30:09.595 –> 00:30:13.210
definitive Yes or no state like, something that, like

477
00:30:13.370 –> 00:30:16.810
or or a question that you should have a clear answer Tom. Like, for

478
00:30:16.810 –> 00:30:20.625
example, Jesan. How much does it cost?

479
00:30:20.924 –> 00:30:24.605
And Sandler would say, tell me why that’s important to

480
00:30:24.605 –> 00:30:27.860
you Or why why, you know, what no no no. I’m asking you a very

481
00:30:27.940 –> 00:30:30.820
just tell me what it costs. I’m asking you a quest just asking you a

482
00:30:30.820 –> 00:30:34.665
direct question. I don’t need I don’t need that’s the problem. That’s

483
00:30:34.665 –> 00:30:38.184
what Socrates’ problem was. Right? Because if somebody asked you a direct

484
00:30:38.184 –> 00:30:41.805
question, answer it and then, like, I would in that same scenario,

485
00:30:42.390 –> 00:30:46.150
So, Tom, what does it cost? Well, it costs this, but why does

486
00:30:46.150 –> 00:30:49.510
that matter to you? What are you looking to gain out of either reducing podcast

487
00:30:49.510 –> 00:30:53.315
or, like, what is what What does that matter to you? Tom explain

488
00:30:53.315 –> 00:30:57.155
to me why you’re asking that question. I would still answer their question though, which

489
00:30:57.155 –> 00:31:00.355
is what I think Sark Tom your point, why Sarkar Readers the death of a

490
00:31:00.355 –> 00:31:04.070
Sandler salesperson, he just decided never to answer the actual question. He

491
00:31:04.070 –> 00:31:07.190
just, kept, you know, beating around the bush. Anyway

492
00:31:07.909 –> 00:31:11.605
And he and he drank the hemlock. So, I mean, you know, that’s that’s the

493
00:31:11.605 –> 00:31:15.365
other that’s the other challenge there. Alright. Now for all you Sandler training people

494
00:31:15.365 –> 00:31:18.800
out there, I’m I’m not assuming that Sandler training is bad, so please don’t

495
00:31:18.960 –> 00:31:22.640
Rip the comments apart about his sidebar. I was

496
00:31:22.640 –> 00:31:26.320
just just making an observation here. We love Sandler training

497
00:31:26.320 –> 00:31:30.135
systems. We love all training Sorrells from Zig Ziglar to

498
00:31:30.135 –> 00:31:33.895
whoever with Sandler. Yeah. We have no problem with anybody with

499
00:31:33.895 –> 00:31:36.615
sales. Please, you gotta get out there and sell yourself. You gotta you gotta get

500
00:31:36.615 –> 00:31:39.799
out there and do something. And if it works for you, it works. Just put

501
00:31:39.799 –> 00:31:43.559
it on. Exactly. That’s right. Now we’re

502
00:31:43.559 –> 00:31:47.335
going to move ahead here a little bit in,

503
00:31:47.735 –> 00:31:51.415
in the in, the Republic. And, we’re

504
00:31:51.415 –> 00:31:55.130
going to we’re gonna skip past, Socrates’

505
00:31:55.270 –> 00:31:59.030
description of the luxurious state, which creates

506
00:31:59.190 –> 00:32:02.870
which is the which is the and this is sort of where the republics meet

507
00:32:02.870 –> 00:32:05.675
really really exists, which is This idea of,

508
00:32:07.175 –> 00:32:10.555
the state as a place where,

509
00:32:12.740 –> 00:32:16.200
where children can be born, who have a prudent

510
00:32:16.420 –> 00:32:20.174
fear of, poverty or war, and

511
00:32:20.174 –> 00:32:24.014
they do not act or, or, or behave beyond

512
00:32:24.014 –> 00:32:27.615
their means. And then Socrates gets into the

513
00:32:27.615 –> 00:32:31.340
idea. And, and, and some of this people

514
00:32:31.340 –> 00:32:34.940
believe is, is Plato putting his ideas in Socrates mouth,

515
00:32:34.940 –> 00:32:38.684
less Socrates himself. But either way, both men have sort of

516
00:32:38.684 –> 00:32:40.465
merged together on this.

517
00:32:42.684 –> 00:32:46.044
The idea of how do you tame a spirit, how do you create a

518
00:32:46.044 –> 00:32:49.650
leader, in a luxurious state where

519
00:32:49.789 –> 00:32:53.549
everything is provided for other than, and

520
00:32:53.549 –> 00:32:57.015
well, not everything. Yes. Where everything, every material, where every

521
00:32:57.015 –> 00:32:59.595
material need is provided for.

522
00:33:00.615 –> 00:33:04.075
And now we have to be concerned about moral laxity,

523
00:33:05.270 –> 00:33:08.790
which we don’t talk a lot about that on this podcast, but it does

524
00:33:08.790 –> 00:33:12.070
undergird some of the conversations that we do have. And so we’re gonna talk about

525
00:33:12.070 –> 00:33:15.625
it a little bit directly here as we

526
00:33:15.625 –> 00:33:19.305
read about the guardian’s temperament in chapter

527
00:33:19.305 –> 00:33:23.065
8 of the Republic of Plato. So back to the

528
00:33:23.065 –> 00:33:26.690
book. Don’t you think then said

529
00:33:26.690 –> 00:33:30.530
I, that for the purpose of keeping guard and by the way,

530
00:33:30.530 –> 00:33:34.355
keeping guard is how they’re describing leadership For the purpose of keeping guard,

531
00:33:34.355 –> 00:33:37.955
a young man should have much the same temperament and qualities as a well

532
00:33:37.955 –> 00:33:41.740
bred watch. I mean, for instance,

533
00:33:41.960 –> 00:33:45.480
that both must have quick senses to detect an enemy, swiftness in

534
00:33:45.480 –> 00:33:49.020
pursuing him, and strength if they have to fight when they have caught him.

535
00:33:49.615 –> 00:33:53.375
Yes, they will need all those humanities and also courage if they are to fight

536
00:33:53.375 –> 00:33:57.215
well, of course, and courage in dog or horse or

537
00:33:57.215 –> 00:34:01.059
any other creature implies a spirited disposition. You must have

538
00:34:01.059 –> 00:34:04.840
noticed that a high spirit is unconquerable. Every soul

539
00:34:05.140 –> 00:34:08.355
possessed to up. It is fearless and indomitable in the face of danger.

540
00:34:09.215 –> 00:34:13.054
Yes. I’ve noticed that. So now we know what physical

541
00:34:13.054 –> 00:34:16.800
qualities our guardian must have, and also that he must be of a spirited

542
00:34:16.800 –> 00:34:20.640
temper. Yes. Then Glaucon, how

543
00:34:20.640 –> 00:34:24.260
are men of that natural disposition to be kept from behaving pugnaciously

544
00:34:24.784 –> 00:34:27.364
to one another and to the rest of their countrymen.

545
00:34:28.545 –> 00:34:31.905
It is not at all easy to see. And

546
00:34:31.905 –> 00:34:35.580
yet They must be gentle to their own people and dangerous only to

547
00:34:35.580 –> 00:34:39.339
enemies. Otherwise they will destroy themselves without waiting till others

548
00:34:39.339 –> 00:34:43.185
destroy them. True. What

549
00:34:43.185 –> 00:34:47.025
are we to do then? If gentleness and a high temper are contraries, where

550
00:34:47.025 –> 00:34:50.739
should we find a character to combine them? Both are necessary to make a

551
00:34:50.739 –> 00:34:54.580
good guardian, but it seems they are incompatible, so we shall never have

552
00:34:54.580 –> 00:34:57.560
a good guardian. That looks like it.

553
00:34:58.825 –> 00:35:02.025
Here, I was perplexed when I’m thinking over what we have been saying. I remarked

554
00:35:02.025 –> 00:35:05.465
that we deserve to be puzzled because we had not followed up on the comparison

555
00:35:05.465 –> 00:35:09.210
we had just drawn. What do you Jesan? He asked. We never

556
00:35:09.210 –> 00:35:12.810
noticed that after all, there are natures in which these contraries are

557
00:35:12.810 –> 00:35:15.315
combined. They are to be found in animals and not the bulls and not the

558
00:35:15.315 –> 00:35:18.355
least in the kind we compare it to our guardian. Well bred dogs, as you

559
00:35:18.355 –> 00:35:21.955
know, are by instinct, perfectly gentle to people who they know and are accustomed to

560
00:35:21.955 –> 00:35:25.500
and fierce to strangers. So the combination of qualities we require for our

561
00:35:25.500 –> 00:35:28.560
guardian is after all possible and not against nature.

562
00:35:29.740 –> 00:35:33.265
Evidently, Do you further agree that besides

563
00:35:33.405 –> 00:35:36.625
this spirited temper, he must have a philosophical

564
00:35:37.005 –> 00:35:40.625
element to his nature. I don’t see what you mean.

565
00:35:41.350 –> 00:35:45.190
This is another trait you will see in a dog. It is remarkable how

566
00:35:45.190 –> 00:35:48.150
the creature gets angry at the mere sight of a stranger and welcomes anyone he

567
00:35:48.150 –> 00:35:51.785
knows Though he may never have been treated unkindly by the 1 or kindly by

568
00:35:51.785 –> 00:35:55.625
the other, did that ever strike you as curious? I had not

569
00:35:55.625 –> 00:35:58.550
thought of it before, but that is certainly how a dog behaves.

570
00:35:59.330 –> 00:36:02.710
Well, but that shows a fine instinct, which is philosophic in a true sense.

571
00:36:03.170 –> 00:36:06.565
How so? Because the only mark by which he

572
00:36:06.565 –> 00:36:09.605
distinguishes a friendly and an unfriendly face is that he knows the one and does

573
00:36:09.605 –> 00:36:13.180
not know the other. And if a creature makes that the test of what it

574
00:36:13.180 –> 00:36:16.860
finds congenial or otherwise, how can you deny that it has a passion for knowledge

575
00:36:16.860 –> 00:36:20.234
and understanding? Of course I cannot.

576
00:36:21.095 –> 00:36:24.615
And that passion is the same thing as philosophy, the

577
00:36:24.615 –> 00:36:27.900
love of wisdom. Yes.

578
00:36:29.000 –> 00:36:32.520
Shall we boldly say then that the same is true of human beings? If a

579
00:36:32.520 –> 00:36:35.335
man is to be gentle towards his own people, whom he knows, He must have

580
00:36:35.335 –> 00:36:38.555
an instinctive love of wisdom and understanding agreed.

581
00:36:39.175 –> 00:36:42.790
So the nature required to make a really noble guardian of our

582
00:36:42.870 –> 00:36:46.170
Common wealth will be a swift and strong spirited and philosophic,

583
00:36:46.950 –> 00:36:50.710
quite so. Given those natural qualities then, how are these guardians

584
00:36:50.710 –> 00:36:54.505
to be brought up and educated? First, will the answer to

585
00:36:54.505 –> 00:36:57.785
that question help the purpose of our whole inquiry, which is how to make out

586
00:36:57.785 –> 00:37:01.310
justice and injustice grow in a state? We want to be

587
00:37:01.310 –> 00:37:04.370
thorough, but not Tom write off this discussion to a needless length.

588
00:37:05.230 –> 00:37:08.965
Alaucon’s brother answered, I certainly think it will help. If so, I

589
00:37:08.965 –> 00:37:11.525
said, we must not think of dropping it, though it may be a rather long

590
00:37:11.525 –> 00:37:15.365
business. I agree. Tell them then. We will take our time and educate our

591
00:37:15.365 –> 00:37:19.069
imaginary citizens. Yes. Let

592
00:37:19.069 –> 00:37:20.049
us do so.

593
00:37:26.975 –> 00:37:30.115
How are we to educate

594
00:37:30.735 –> 00:37:31.635
our guardians?

595
00:37:34.380 –> 00:37:37.980
Or to paraphrase from Whitney Houston back in the day, I

596
00:37:37.980 –> 00:37:41.580
believe the children are the future. Teach them well and let

597
00:37:41.580 –> 00:37:45.295
them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they possess inside.

598
00:37:45.915 –> 00:37:47.615
Yeah. How’s that working out for us?

599
00:37:53.020 –> 00:37:56.620
Sorry. I just, no, no, no, no, no. This is the core. This is what

600
00:37:56.620 –> 00:38:00.380
it again, 2,500 years of us arguing in the west over

601
00:38:00.380 –> 00:38:03.975
2 questions. And and we’re gonna, we’re gonna tussle a little bit over these 2

602
00:38:03.975 –> 00:38:07.815
questions right now. What sort of men or women should

603
00:38:07.815 –> 00:38:11.540
a society have? And then

604
00:38:11.540 –> 00:38:15.140
the 2nd question, which no one wants to talk about

605
00:38:15.140 –> 00:38:18.965
these days, because this is a touchy one, but it is the only, it is

606
00:38:18.965 –> 00:38:22.805
one of the only 2 questions really we’re talking about. What kind of

607
00:38:22.805 –> 00:38:26.025
worldview do we want those people to have?

608
00:38:26.710 –> 00:38:29.290
Do we want them to have a secular

609
00:38:30.230 –> 00:38:33.910
scientific rationalist worldview? Do we want them to have

610
00:38:33.910 –> 00:38:37.535
a religious, a religious theocratic,

611
00:38:38.395 –> 00:38:42.155
theological minded worldview, or, or do

612
00:38:42.155 –> 00:38:45.930
we want to Find the mystical third way. Remember when bill Clinton talked about the

613
00:38:45.930 –> 00:38:49.690
3rd way back in the day? Remember that? Yeah. We’re gonna find a 3rd

614
00:38:49.690 –> 00:38:52.510
way between those 2, except there is no 3rd way.

615
00:38:55.035 –> 00:38:58.315
But this is the argument we’ve been having in the West for 2,500 readers, and

616
00:38:58.315 –> 00:39:01.880
it’s sharp at America because Tom your point about individualism, There’s

617
00:39:01.880 –> 00:39:05.400
315,000,000 individuals in this country and they all have an

618
00:39:05.400 –> 00:39:09.180
opinion about what sort of person should be

619
00:39:09.855 –> 00:39:13.535
not just an American, but what sort of person should be produced

620
00:39:13.535 –> 00:39:17.375
by an American society? And this is of course why the Greeks

621
00:39:17.375 –> 00:39:21.099
hated democracy, not hated, but they were, They, they looked at a side eye

622
00:39:21.099 –> 00:39:24.859
at democracy. And that’s also why we

623
00:39:24.859 –> 00:39:28.705
don’t live in a democracy. We actually live under a Republican small R Form

624
00:39:28.705 –> 00:39:31.045
of Government. We don’t actually live in a democracy.

625
00:39:32.705 –> 00:39:36.440
Because, well, anyway, There’s a whole lot of practical reasons,

626
00:39:36.440 –> 00:39:40.119
which we’ll get into in July, when we discuss our 4th, our 3rd

627
00:39:40.119 –> 00:39:43.595
round of going through the declaration of independence and the constitution. Now we discuss all

628
00:39:43.595 –> 00:39:46.975
the more, all this recent Supreme court decisions that will be coming out in July.

629
00:39:47.035 –> 00:39:49.615
We’ll get into all that down there. Point is.

630
00:39:51.190 –> 00:39:55.029
These are the 2 core questions. What sort of men or women should

631
00:39:55.029 –> 00:39:58.710
a society have? And from immigration to education, this has been

632
00:39:58.710 –> 00:40:02.365
the struggle of America. You and I both have

633
00:40:02.365 –> 00:40:05.964
backgrounds of people that didn’t, that I won’t say that didn’t come from here, but

634
00:40:05.964 –> 00:40:09.184
like didn’t come from here and then came here and mixed with everybody else.

635
00:40:09.405 –> 00:40:12.440
Right. You have a background of people who were here

636
00:40:13.619 –> 00:40:17.240
and then mixed with other folks who showed up for other places. What

637
00:40:17.684 –> 00:40:21.525
sort of men or women should a society have. What

638
00:40:21.525 –> 00:40:23.145
kind of people do we want to create?

639
00:40:25.910 –> 00:40:29.589
Well, I think it’s hilarious actually in the way in the in the

640
00:40:29.589 –> 00:40:33.435
first, in the first Excerpt that you read

641
00:40:33.575 –> 00:40:37.415
where he describes who the society will quote unquote need, right? Right. Oh,

642
00:40:37.415 –> 00:40:41.210
yeah. Because he’s not wrong. Like, you need farmers and Be like, you need

643
00:40:41.210 –> 00:40:44.970
those people that are gonna produce food. You also need people

644
00:40:44.970 –> 00:40:48.435
that are gonna, you know, facilitate those relationships with

645
00:40:48.515 –> 00:40:51.955
Foreign entities to get the stuff that you can’t I mean, there’s no place on

646
00:40:51.955 –> 00:40:55.635
the planet that will produce everything a society needs. It just doesn’t

647
00:40:55.635 –> 00:40:59.380
exist. That does not exist. Back, you know,

648
00:40:59.380 –> 00:41:02.846
back into the, like, essays,

649
00:41:03.780 –> 00:41:07.380
you know, before governments even existed, we had

650
00:41:07.380 –> 00:41:11.045
trade, Like, right? So, like, in in in when it when we were all

651
00:41:11.045 –> 00:41:14.805
tribespeople, never mind the the Americas or, like, there were at one point,

652
00:41:14.805 –> 00:41:18.329
the entire world was covered with tribespeople, And they’ve still had trade and

653
00:41:18.329 –> 00:41:22.170
barter with because of things that they couldn’t produce themselves. So I’ll do you

654
00:41:22.170 –> 00:41:25.795
one better. If the entire Internet goes down, because World

655
00:41:25.795 –> 00:41:29.315
War 3 breaks out, which I think we gotta talk knock off all that talk,

656
00:41:29.315 –> 00:41:32.835
but okay, fine. Let’s walk down that road a little bit. If that

657
00:41:32.835 –> 00:41:36.630
actually breaks out and we’re all nuclear Armageddon into wherever.

658
00:41:37.569 –> 00:41:41.250
It’ll take us about 5 minutes to get back to trading things. Oh,

659
00:41:41.250 –> 00:41:44.894
absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, you see it. It’s depicted

660
00:41:44.894 –> 00:41:47.954
in every apocalyptic movie ever, ever.

661
00:41:48.414 –> 00:41:52.180
Like, they’re they’re they’re giving us The road map right there.

662
00:41:52.180 –> 00:41:55.880
When this world goes to kapalooey, guess what?

663
00:41:56.260 –> 00:41:59.734
The, you know, the the idea, the idea of paper

664
00:41:59.734 –> 00:42:03.515
money or coins is gonna be irrelevant. Nobody’s gonna care.

665
00:42:03.575 –> 00:42:05.974
They’re gonna care about the clothes on their back and the food in their stomach,

666
00:42:05.974 –> 00:42:09.640
the house over their head. How do I get those Mad

667
00:42:09.640 –> 00:42:12.940
Max. They’re having wars over gas. Exactly.

668
00:42:13.960 –> 00:42:17.785
They’re having wars over they’re having wars over the simplest stuff because that’s That’s what’s

669
00:42:17.785 –> 00:42:21.305
left. Right? Like Gas and water. Yep. Anyway, like,

670
00:42:21.305 –> 00:42:25.145
there’s there’s a lot trading for gas and writers. We will be. Like, that’s just

671
00:42:25.224 –> 00:42:28.880
that’s what will happen. There’s a lot of depictions of that.

672
00:42:29.020 –> 00:42:32.540
Yeah. Because because that writers. Because that exists outside the

673
00:42:32.540 –> 00:42:36.355
state. But, again, even in those societies, you see this in the

674
00:42:36.355 –> 00:42:39.795
the one of the the show is on. We don’t need we don’t need an

675
00:42:39.795 –> 00:42:43.235
over an overseeing government to tell us what to do or how to do that

676
00:42:43.235 –> 00:42:47.012
either, the way. Yep. Like, that’s the other part of it. Because that over that

677
00:42:47.012 –> 00:42:50.637
overstating, that goes away. Let’s see. Right. We don’t need you. We’re just we’re

678
00:42:50.637 –> 00:42:51.845
gonna do our own thing.

679
00:42:54.405 –> 00:42:57.365
It’ll be it’ll be a bunch of people and the survivors all left just screaming

680
00:42:57.365 –> 00:43:00.885
who? And then just walking away. I know exactly. Well, I don’t I don’t

681
00:43:00.885 –> 00:43:04.579
understand. But when you see this in The Walking Dead,

682
00:43:04.640 –> 00:43:08.160
so I I didn’t I watched the 1st season of that show and I made

683
00:43:08.160 –> 00:43:11.315
it through about halfway through the 2nd season before I was just done. I was

684
00:43:11.315 –> 00:43:14.515
finished because there was too much caterwauling about, like, we gotta get back to the

685
00:43:14.515 –> 00:43:17.795
world as it was. I was like, come on, give me a break. I I

686
00:43:17.795 –> 00:43:21.520
couldn’t I couldn’t buy into that. But fundamentally in The Walking

687
00:43:21.520 –> 00:43:25.280
Dead, I mean, you see this, you know, there’s a disaster

688
00:43:25.280 –> 00:43:28.020
that shows up, and

689
00:43:29.525 –> 00:43:33.305
The, the, the societies, the many societies

690
00:43:33.365 –> 00:43:37.125
that are set up. And I found this out after readers, you know, stuff from

691
00:43:37.125 –> 00:43:40.970
other people, but the many societies that are set up inside of

692
00:43:40.970 –> 00:43:43.630
that, or, or subsequent to that apocalypse

693
00:43:45.025 –> 00:43:47.765
are of course consumed with the idea of

694
00:43:48.945 –> 00:43:52.625
what sort of men or women should our society have, who is in and who’s

695
00:43:52.625 –> 00:43:56.360
out. And this is what Socrates is

696
00:43:56.360 –> 00:44:00.200
talking about, who’s in and who’s out. How do we educate them once we’ve

697
00:44:00.200 –> 00:44:04.001
decided that they’re in? Now that’s a 2nd order question, but the 1st order question

698
00:44:04.001 –> 00:44:07.085
Jesan, what kind of people will we have?

699
00:44:09.110 –> 00:44:12.710
I think I think the easiest the simplest version of this,

700
00:44:12.710 –> 00:44:16.310
right, is as long as it’s

701
00:44:16.310 –> 00:44:19.975
a variety, you’ll be okay. If you have 5

702
00:44:19.975 –> 00:44:23.755
people that are all doing and saying the same thing, you’re not gonna be okay.

703
00:44:23.815 –> 00:44:27.255
Right? Like, I I I just book again, let’s let’s take

704
00:44:27.255 –> 00:44:30.780
this Tom one step Further. Right?

705
00:44:30.840 –> 00:44:34.360
Sure. You society’s gone. We’re an

706
00:44:34.360 –> 00:44:38.075
apocalyptic state. All I have is

707
00:44:38.075 –> 00:44:41.755
my family with me. Mhmm. Right? I feel like we’re

708
00:44:41.755 –> 00:44:45.035
gonna be okay. My son and I know how to hunt. We can know how

709
00:44:45.035 –> 00:44:48.850
to we know how to, We we can get food out of whatever animal we

710
00:44:48.850 –> 00:44:51.750
get. We can get clothing out of the animals. We know how to tan hides.

711
00:44:51.810 –> 00:44:55.505
Certain things about that, we we know how to do. We have You know, there

712
00:44:55.505 –> 00:44:58.485
are other people in our family that know how to sew, they know how to,

713
00:44:58.785 –> 00:45:02.244
like, how to create things out of, like, we we will be okay

714
00:45:02.530 –> 00:45:06.290
Because of our family unit has a diverse level of

715
00:45:06.290 –> 00:45:08.950
knowledge when it comes to survival outside of

716
00:45:09.765 –> 00:45:13.605
Societal Norms. Sure. Now part of that, again, Haysan has led,

717
00:45:13.605 –> 00:45:17.125
you know, as as alluded to, for those of you first listeners to the

718
00:45:17.125 –> 00:45:20.900
podcast, My, you know, my background and culture, my family is Native

719
00:45:20.900 –> 00:45:24.740
American. We have, and we still to this day teach some of

720
00:45:24.740 –> 00:45:27.560
those old ways. So we, now,

721
00:45:28.775 –> 00:45:32.295
We have people that can drive, we have good negotiators, we have

722
00:45:32.295 –> 00:45:35.335
people in our family that have been, you know, they’ve been doing they’ve owned their

723
00:45:35.335 –> 00:45:39.150
own businesses, like, so again, As long as you have a variety,

724
00:45:39.150 –> 00:45:42.910
I don’t honestly, I don’t even care what the variety is. You have a

725
00:45:42.910 –> 00:45:46.474
better you have a better shot at survival If you have a

726
00:45:46.474 –> 00:45:49.835
variety of personnel and personalities, then if you do if you

727
00:45:49.835 –> 00:45:53.535
have 5 auto mechanics or 5 plumbers

728
00:45:53.595 –> 00:45:57.260
or 5 or 25, You know, you

729
00:45:57.260 –> 00:46:01.100
know, carpenters. I it doesn’t make sense. Dara, say

730
00:46:01.100 –> 00:46:04.935
you’re talking about a diversity of skill sets. Yes. So it’s a diversity

731
00:46:04.935 –> 00:46:08.695
of skill sets. I think personalities matter too though, because

732
00:46:08.695 –> 00:46:11.975
I’m I’m just saying, if you if you don’t have somebody that can challenge the

733
00:46:11.975 –> 00:46:15.290
status Cool. Even within your own, you know, group. I mean,

734
00:46:15.430 –> 00:46:19.190
again, go back and watch the rest of the 842 seasons

735
00:46:19.190 –> 00:46:22.845
of The Walking Dead. Sorry. I’m sorry. I know. You’re right.

736
00:46:22.845 –> 00:46:26.165
Yeah. And all the spin offs. Good lord. All spin offs. Right? I I want

737
00:46:26.285 –> 00:46:29.609
I watched the 1st 4 seasons. I couldn’t get past the 4th, You know, after

738
00:46:29.609 –> 00:46:32.730
the 4th season, to me it just became very repetitive. It was the same thing

739
00:46:32.730 –> 00:46:36.410
over and over, same story lines over and over. But anyway, but

740
00:46:36.410 –> 00:46:40.244
but If you have all if everybody thinks alike,

741
00:46:41.025 –> 00:46:44.785
you tend to be very stagnant in your in your in your

742
00:46:44.785 –> 00:46:48.490
ability to, to to to plan, to

743
00:46:48.490 –> 00:46:52.030
project, to alter course, to you’re very limited.

744
00:46:52.170 –> 00:46:55.950
If you have a diverse personality group and a diverse skill set,

745
00:46:56.454 –> 00:46:59.895
It’s easier to start making adjustments as you

746
00:46:59.895 –> 00:47:03.734
go because you get input from different people, you get input from different

747
00:47:03.734 –> 00:47:07.569
philosophies, different thinking, different, like, And then you can make the best group decision

748
00:47:07.569 –> 00:47:11.190
you can make based on all of the information presented to you.

749
00:47:11.490 –> 00:47:15.170
Now let me push back on this because this is the pushback on

750
00:47:15.170 –> 00:47:19.015
that. And this is pushback that I hear from,

751
00:47:19.315 –> 00:47:22.915
interestingly enough, because what you’re describing fundamentally at a small

752
00:47:22.915 –> 00:47:26.740
level is the American experience. That’s a or

753
00:47:26.740 –> 00:47:30.579
the American experiment. That’s that’s fundamentally what you’re describing, but at a at a very

754
00:47:30.579 –> 00:47:34.415
micro or macro level. Yeah. You you are. You don’t think

755
00:47:34.495 –> 00:47:37.935
oh, you’re okay. You don’t okay. Doesn’t work that way. It doesn’t work that way

756
00:47:37.935 –> 00:47:40.930
in the news. Well okay. Go ahead. Go ahead. Well, okay. Okay. This this is

757
00:47:40.930 –> 00:47:43.829
where the pushback books. So so so if I’m observing

758
00:47:44.690 –> 00:47:46.390
your small group from the outside

759
00:47:48.875 –> 00:47:52.635
And for a time, there’s some things that are getting

760
00:47:52.635 –> 00:47:55.935
done, like decisions are getting made, things are moving forward books great.

761
00:47:57.880 –> 00:48:01.559
And at an indefinable time in the future, you’re going to

762
00:48:01.559 –> 00:48:05.365
hit something that your group cannot overcome. I might

763
00:48:05.365 –> 00:48:08.964
be something material, it might be something psychological, it might be something, dare I say,

764
00:48:08.964 –> 00:48:12.405
spiritual, whatever. Right? It’s gonna be those one of those big 3.

765
00:48:12.405 –> 00:48:16.060
Right? And your group, and this is what someone

766
00:48:16.060 –> 00:48:19.820
from the outside would say observing, who

767
00:48:19.820 –> 00:48:23.205
maybe comes from a group that’s more, Shall we say

768
00:48:23.205 –> 00:48:26.185
homogeneous in your group?

769
00:48:27.365 –> 00:48:30.585
They’re going to look at that moment where you hit that chaotic

770
00:48:31.285 –> 00:48:34.869
disruptive piece. And

771
00:48:34.869 –> 00:48:37.910
they’re going to predict, I’m not gonna say they’re correct, but they’re going to predict

772
00:48:37.910 –> 00:48:41.325
that you’re gonna fall apart because you have too many divergent

773
00:48:41.325 –> 00:48:44.785
voices with too many divergent skill sets, and then

774
00:48:44.845 –> 00:48:48.385
splitting and breaking fracturing, dare I say, will occur

775
00:48:49.290 –> 00:48:52.970
and then the whole experiment falls apart. And that

776
00:48:52.970 –> 00:48:56.563
is one of the major knocks against America these

777
00:48:56.563 –> 00:49:00.295
essays, that we’ve been yelling at each other with chaos

778
00:49:00.515 –> 00:49:04.115
for the last 20 years and that we are rattling and

779
00:49:04.115 –> 00:49:07.730
almost falling apart. And in some

780
00:49:07.730 –> 00:49:10.530
cases, some folks would go so far. And by the way, this is for much

781
00:49:10.530 –> 00:49:14.290
more homogenous societies than others. China will knock us this

782
00:49:14.290 –> 00:49:18.005
way. Scandinavia, Finland will knock us this way, Russia

783
00:49:18.005 –> 00:49:20.585
will knock us this way. And yet

784
00:49:21.845 –> 00:49:25.620
and yet, There are other folks

785
00:49:25.840 –> 00:49:29.460
who will say, don’t mistake

786
00:49:29.600 –> 00:49:33.325
the chaos and the argumentation for

787
00:49:34.265 –> 00:49:38.025
the thing falling apart. Because when the decision gets

788
00:49:38.025 –> 00:49:41.650
made, click, they’re gonna go in that direction. They

789
00:49:41.650 –> 00:49:42.869
always have. Right?

790
00:49:45.329 –> 00:49:49.089
But when you’re going through that chaotic moment, it doesn’t feel like you’re going to

791
00:49:49.089 –> 00:49:52.905
click. True. Now again, I I I think there

792
00:49:52.984 –> 00:49:56.605
there’s also there’s reasons why on a on

793
00:49:57.224 –> 00:50:00.780
a bigger scale, you have way more hurdles In my opinion that you do on

794
00:50:00.780 –> 00:50:04.240
a smaller scale, right, of course. So because societies

795
00:50:04.540 –> 00:50:08.255
in general have survived that way for

796
00:50:08.255 –> 00:50:11.935
1000 of years before the formation of real governments. Right.

797
00:50:11.935 –> 00:50:15.395
Yep. Again, I go back to tribal people whether it was, you know,

798
00:50:15.615 –> 00:50:19.030
across Asia or, you know, for Australia,

799
00:50:19.170 –> 00:50:22.850
Africa, United States, when they were tribal people. They you

800
00:50:22.850 –> 00:50:26.665
know, to your point, It it could be it it becomes chaotic

801
00:50:26.665 –> 00:50:29.945
when it becomes when it gets to the point of, now I need to bring

802
00:50:29.945 –> 00:50:33.789
people together to make a decision. Let’s have a discussion about it. I need everyone’s

803
00:50:33.849 –> 00:50:37.049
counsel, so you’re gonna tell me all the pros and cons. You see you tell

804
00:50:37.049 –> 00:50:40.250
me all the pros and cons. You see, and we’re gonna make a decision based

805
00:50:40.250 –> 00:50:43.285
on all of this collectiveness, but once we make the Decision we go.

806
00:50:43.905 –> 00:50:47.585
There now that being said, you still did have that occasionally

807
00:50:47.585 –> 00:50:51.430
where again, I I rather than think of 1 family unit, of it

808
00:50:51.430 –> 00:50:54.870
more of a tribal unit. Let’s say there’s a 1000 a 1000 people, right?

809
00:50:54.870 –> 00:50:58.250
Mhmm. You might have somebody so butthurt

810
00:50:58.790 –> 00:51:02.605
that they take their 2 or 3 family units

811
00:51:02.605 –> 00:51:06.445
that that encompasses 50 people out of the 1,000, and

812
00:51:06.445 –> 00:51:10.020
they go, we’re just gonna go this way anyway. Mhmm. And you say, Good luck

813
00:51:10.020 –> 00:51:13.060
to you so long. And that’s it. That’s the end of it. That Tom me

814
00:51:13.060 –> 00:51:16.420
is not fractioning and falling apart. That’s a single piece

815
00:51:16.420 –> 00:51:20.125
of of your of your body that that goes a

816
00:51:20.125 –> 00:51:23.665
different direction because they feel strongly about that. And then

817
00:51:24.525 –> 00:51:27.730
if their success and failure is now on their own, like, they

818
00:51:28.530 –> 00:51:32.130
They get to decide on their own success and failure, but their decision making process

819
00:51:32.130 –> 00:51:35.915
is gonna be the same because they they just saw They just saw and

820
00:51:35.915 –> 00:51:39.515
learned what all of this they’re they’re gonna try to make whatever their

821
00:51:39.515 –> 00:51:43.215
50 person unit. They’re gonna they they think it’s gonna be better,

822
00:51:43.340 –> 00:51:46.860
But it ends up being the same. And they grow their

823
00:51:46.860 –> 00:51:49.820
50 to to a1000, and they have the same thing that happens. Right. And then

824
00:51:49.820 –> 00:51:53.525
there’s a fracturing again and so on and so on. Right? Right. But with, like,

825
00:51:53.525 –> 00:51:57.225
with the United States and and and our government, there’s

826
00:51:57.285 –> 00:52:01.049
actual, you know, documentation that says that that’s not, quote, unquote supposed

827
00:52:01.049 –> 00:52:04.490
to happen. Now that’s not suggesting that at some point in the to

828
00:52:04.490 –> 00:52:08.329
your, your, your barometer earlier

829
00:52:08.329 –> 00:52:12.145
in indefinite A time in the future, the United

830
00:52:12.145 –> 00:52:14.625
States could look at this and go, hey. Listen. We’re gonna be, you know, we’re

831
00:52:14.625 –> 00:52:17.744
gonna we’re gonna separate the 4 different countries because we just can’t get our shit

832
00:52:17.744 –> 00:52:21.460
together anymore. Excuse my language. Can’t get on the same page. You know, this,

833
00:52:21.460 –> 00:52:25.080
you know, this northeastern part of the country is gonna be 1 country.

834
00:52:25.220 –> 00:52:29.055
Southeast, northwest, and southwest. We’re gonna divide it into 4 countries. You

835
00:52:29.055 –> 00:52:32.595
guys go do your own thing and and and be done with it.

836
00:52:33.295 –> 00:52:36.815
I I’m not suggesting that I could never see that happening. I just I mean,

837
00:52:36.815 –> 00:52:40.559
I don’t In my lifetime, but I’m saying if if

838
00:52:40.559 –> 00:52:44.180
the if the feces were to really hit the fan, I could see that

839
00:52:44.400 –> 00:52:47.605
happening to some degree with the, you know, the northeast,

840
00:52:48.705 –> 00:52:52.305
southeast, northwest, like, just Well, fortunately for you in the next

841
00:52:52.305 –> 00:52:55.440
segment, I’ve got a I’ve got a balm for that that Gilead,

842
00:52:56.300 –> 00:53:00.020
I got Book from Gilead for that wound. That’s because

843
00:53:00.020 –> 00:53:02.860
I because I think we’re at the I think we’re I think the feces has

844
00:53:02.860 –> 00:53:06.305
already hit the fan. I think we’re out of the feces fan hitting moment. I

845
00:53:06.305 –> 00:53:09.825
think, I think we are, we are, we are. We are

846
00:53:09.825 –> 00:53:13.450
just on the other side of past that, and don’t get me wrong. There

847
00:53:13.450 –> 00:53:16.250
still might be more in incidents of that. I mean, back, we have an entire

848
00:53:16.250 –> 00:53:18.990
year to go through here. This is why we’re starting off with the republic.

849
00:53:21.315 –> 00:53:24.835
But I don’t think I do think we’ve reached, we reached the high watermark of

850
00:53:24.835 –> 00:53:28.675
all that nonsense in 2020. I actually do. I’m sorry. I know that

851
00:53:28.675 –> 00:53:31.319
some people disagree with me on that and I think that I’m Pollyanna ish.

852
00:53:32.740 –> 00:53:36.500
You’ve been with me, you know, well over 2 years now in

853
00:53:36.500 –> 00:53:40.275
various projects and a year on the podcast. I don’t think, I

854
00:53:40.275 –> 00:53:43.415
don’t think I strike you as being a Pollyanna. Doctor. No.

855
00:53:43.955 –> 00:53:47.715
So I’m cautiously optimistic. Let me, I’ll frame it

856
00:53:47.715 –> 00:53:51.360
that way that we’re crossing the other, we’re

857
00:53:51.360 –> 00:53:54.800
crossing the other side of the river on something. I think a decision has been

858
00:53:54.800 –> 00:53:57.944
made. There is a click that has occurred. And I’ve said it on before on

859
00:53:57.944 –> 00:54:01.065
the podcast, and I’m gonna keep saying it because I do think it’s happened. But

860
00:54:01.065 –> 00:54:04.820
I think the the manifest station of that in the

861
00:54:04.820 –> 00:54:08.420
body politic and in decisions. It’s,

862
00:54:08.740 –> 00:54:12.339
it’s gonna be the lag. It’s the lag part that we’re going through right now.

863
00:54:12.339 –> 00:54:15.555
Yeah. Yeah. And so the, the lag always includes

864
00:54:15.855 –> 00:54:19.694
whatever the hell chaos was, was that you just came out of and

865
00:54:19.694 –> 00:54:23.069
all of your memories of that. And then you gotta, You guys snap

866
00:54:23.130 –> 00:54:26.970
to wherever the, wherever the next decision is, but

867
00:54:26.970 –> 00:54:30.785
we’re still consumed with the idea or we’re assuming the idea. We’re

868
00:54:30.785 –> 00:54:33.745
still sort of dancing around the question. What sort of men or women should a

869
00:54:33.745 –> 00:54:37.185
society have? What sort of character or temperament should they have? And, and

870
00:54:37.185 –> 00:54:40.940
Socrates, you know, leans into wisdom. And we’re going to

871
00:54:40.940 –> 00:54:43.840
read another section in here, which talks about what the specific,

872
00:54:44.940 –> 00:54:48.765
what the specific pieces are like wisdom and, and, And,

873
00:54:49.244 –> 00:54:52.765
specific character temperaments, which we never talk about character anymore, either, which is a

874
00:54:52.765 –> 00:54:56.440
shame, but what kind of character do we want to want,

875
00:54:56.520 –> 00:55:00.359
Want those people in that little tribe to have, do we want them to have

876
00:55:00.359 –> 00:55:03.160
a character that is conformist or do we want them to have a character that’s

877
00:55:03.160 –> 00:55:06.535
nonconformist? Do we want them to have a character that’s patient

878
00:55:07.075 –> 00:55:10.515
and, and, and full of, what do you call it?

879
00:55:11.075 –> 00:55:14.690
Gentleness and meekness and kindness to, to, go to the the book of

880
00:55:14.690 –> 00:55:18.289
Galatians in the bible, or do we want them to have a

881
00:55:18.289 –> 00:55:21.645
character that is more war like an authoritarian

882
00:55:22.425 –> 00:55:24.205
and, and competitive.

883
00:55:27.465 –> 00:55:31.060
Who makes that decision about what kind of people we’re going to have

884
00:55:31.060 –> 00:55:33.720
because Socrates would, would imply.

885
00:55:35.460 –> 00:55:39.215
And Plato supports this, But Socrates would

886
00:55:39.215 –> 00:55:42.975
imply that the state is the one that creates the guardians

887
00:55:42.975 –> 00:55:45.695
and is responsible for the education of the young. As a matter of fact, he

888
00:55:45.695 –> 00:55:49.280
goes on about this for quite some time in talking about sort of

889
00:55:49.280 –> 00:55:53.119
what comedies, what plays the young should watch, and that there should be

890
00:55:53.119 –> 00:55:56.055
censorship in the arts. He wasn’t a big Fan of the artists, by the way,

891
00:55:56.055 –> 00:55:59.815
and the creatives because they got away with too much. So

892
00:56:00.215 –> 00:56:03.839
and and he and he also believed that creativity in the arts was way

893
00:56:03.839 –> 00:56:07.280
more influential than formal education on shaping the character of the

894
00:56:07.280 –> 00:56:10.500
young, which is another thing we don’t like to talk about.

895
00:56:11.404 –> 00:56:14.944
Could you imagine Socrates today watching movies and and cinemas?

896
00:56:17.244 –> 00:56:20.850
They’re like, oh, the apocalypse is already here. Look at that. Yep. It’s already here.

897
00:56:25.505 –> 00:56:28.545
God, that would be, he would yell in Greek, what the hell, and then he

898
00:56:28.545 –> 00:56:31.905
just walked out. He’d he’d be he’d be searching for a hemlock shop somewhere,

899
00:56:31.905 –> 00:56:35.450
anywhere. It’s gotta be something. You know, it’s

900
00:56:35.450 –> 00:56:39.130
funny that you say it, like, it’s so hard to to

901
00:56:39.130 –> 00:56:42.810
picture yourself, like, being like, agreeing with somebody who was alive 25

902
00:56:42.810 –> 00:56:46.385
100 years ago. Like, thinking that, like, there’s

903
00:56:46.385 –> 00:56:50.085
just certain pieces of it that I can see, like,

904
00:56:50.145 –> 00:56:53.710
how his fear came to fruition. Right? Like like when he talks about

905
00:56:53.910 –> 00:56:57.750
to your point, like, when he talks about, you know, the the arts being

906
00:56:57.750 –> 00:57:01.515
more influential than formal education, think about that for a second. We start

907
00:57:01.515 –> 00:57:04.955
watching television shows at 2, 3 years

908
00:57:04.955 –> 00:57:08.175
old. Our formal education doesn’t start till 5 or 6.

909
00:57:09.140 –> 00:57:12.740
He’s right. Like, we’re being influenced now. Great. If you have

910
00:57:12.740 –> 00:57:16.339
awesome parents and they have you watching educational shows at a very young

911
00:57:16.339 –> 00:57:19.585
age Or at least shows that are supposed to be

912
00:57:20.605 –> 00:57:23.665
educationally entertaining or whatever. I don’t know. Mhmm.

913
00:57:24.079 –> 00:57:27.839
Sesame Street comes to mind, you know, like, 123’s ABCs. Like, they’re teaching

914
00:57:27.839 –> 00:57:31.619
you that stuff. Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood. Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood. Yeah. Stuff like that.

915
00:57:32.125 –> 00:57:35.885
Great. Where or as if you’re off watching, like, some random cartoon that’s

916
00:57:35.885 –> 00:57:39.645
just some mind numbing Mickey Mouse thing or whatever. I don’t know.

917
00:57:39.645 –> 00:57:43.070
Sorry, Disney. I’m I don’t mean that, but you know what Tom But it’s like

918
00:57:43.230 –> 00:57:46.750
but, like, he so he’s he’s right to that respect. So, like, should there

919
00:57:46.910 –> 00:57:50.530
should we, as a society, have more censorship over that programming,

920
00:57:51.835 –> 00:57:55.355
which, by the way, was the whole point of PBS in the 1st

921
00:57:55.355 –> 00:57:58.715
place. Like, if you think if you go back to, like I forget. Was it

922
00:57:58.715 –> 00:58:02.109
Nixon or, no, No. It wasn’t Nixon.

923
00:58:03.289 –> 00:58:05.849
Carter. I think it was Carter. Carter. I think it was Carter. I think you’re

924
00:58:05.849 –> 00:58:07.849
right. I think it was Carter. I know it was around that era. It was,

925
00:58:07.849 –> 00:58:11.595
like, seventies where somebody went, Oh, we should spin up a TV

926
00:58:11.595 –> 00:58:15.355
a TV channel that is really for educational purposes, and we said everyone said, oh,

927
00:58:15.355 –> 00:58:18.670
great idea. And now look at it. Book

928
00:58:19.150 –> 00:58:22.589
watches it by the way. Like, you know, it’s like and it still has quality

929
00:58:22.589 –> 00:58:26.190
of TV, but I I still find myself watching some of the

930
00:58:26.190 –> 00:58:30.015
documentaries on PBS Thinking to myself, I wish everybody

931
00:58:30.015 –> 00:58:33.855
watched this. Like, there’s certain just there’s just good it’s good television, people. I’m

932
00:58:33.855 –> 00:58:37.349
just saying PBS Does some book, some good stuff, but- Well,

933
00:58:37.349 –> 00:58:41.190
that- but that- but that rubs up with- that rubs up against the idea

934
00:58:41.190 –> 00:58:43.770
of autonomy and independence.

935
00:58:44.605 –> 00:58:46.705
True. Does the state

936
00:58:48.685 –> 00:58:52.305
this is the whole point of the first amendment. Does the state

937
00:58:52.365 –> 00:58:53.505
make a law

938
00:58:55.930 –> 00:58:59.230
requiring certain things around speech,

939
00:59:00.490 –> 00:59:03.950
which goes directly to education, goes directly to entertainment, goes directly to everything,

940
00:59:04.475 –> 00:59:08.315
or or or does the state and this is what the founding

941
00:59:08.315 –> 00:59:11.855
fathers would say, is the state agnostic on that?

942
00:59:12.210 –> 00:59:15.970
Matter of fact, they’re agnostic. No. Right. They’re they’re not, but but, again, we’re

943
00:59:15.970 –> 00:59:19.170
going to what the we’re going to we’re going to what the principle is. Right?

944
00:59:19.170 –> 00:59:22.855
Is the state agnostic and you’re

945
00:59:22.855 –> 00:59:26.454
gonna let, to paraphrase from chairman Mao, a

946
00:59:26.454 –> 00:59:29.090
1,000 poppies bloom. I

947
00:59:30.350 –> 00:59:33.090
think they tried their damndest to get

948
00:59:34.990 –> 00:59:38.050
the happy medium, writers? The best of both worlds, which is why now

949
00:59:38.895 –> 00:59:42.575
Everything you turn on has a rating on it. Right. You know,

950
00:59:42.575 –> 00:59:46.175
it’ll say why, you know, why 7 or whatever. Mhmm. They’re they’re at

951
00:59:46.175 –> 00:59:49.570
least trying to inform parents. They still give the the

952
00:59:49.570 –> 00:59:53.250
developers of those programs the freedom of speech, and they can do whatever they want

953
00:59:53.250 –> 00:59:57.010
as long as you list it and label it as to what it is. And

954
00:59:57.010 –> 00:59:59.415
then parents have the, have the,

955
01:00:01.095 –> 01:00:04.855
the wherewithal to either elect or not elect and let their kids watch

956
01:00:04.855 –> 01:00:08.250
it. So In in a

957
01:00:08.630 –> 01:00:12.390
way, the state is responsible for doing just that, what Socrates

958
01:00:12.390 –> 01:00:15.850
is talking about, and saying, this is what you should be watching.

959
01:00:16.070 –> 01:00:19.894
Now if the parents Throw caution to the wind and say, I’m gonna

960
01:00:19.894 –> 01:00:23.255
let my 5 year old watch Freddy Krueger or whatever, like, whatever r

961
01:00:23.255 –> 01:00:27.000
rated horror movie. Let’s not do let’s let’s not give it to Freddy Krueger,

962
01:00:27.000 –> 01:00:30.600
forget that, forget that. That that’s okay. That’s Freddy Krueger,

963
01:00:30.600 –> 01:00:34.325
sure, forget that. We had in the

964
01:00:34.325 –> 01:00:37.545
1880s, 1890s, 1900s, 1910s,

965
01:00:37.765 –> 01:00:38.984
1920s, 1930s

966
01:00:41.119 –> 01:00:44.799
1930s, a mere 90

967
01:00:44.799 –> 01:00:46.740
years ago. Now.

968
01:00:48.259 –> 01:00:51.655
Leaders. I know. Right? I did that math in my head just by

969
01:00:51.655 –> 01:00:52.155
myself.

970
01:00:55.175 –> 01:00:58.535
We had children as young as 2 3 years

971
01:00:58.535 –> 01:01:02.150
old Attending Hangings and Lynchings.

972
01:01:06.905 –> 01:01:10.345
Don’t talk about Freddy Krueger. Don’t talk to me about art over

973
01:01:10.345 –> 01:01:14.185
there. Like, people wanna talk about the good old days as if there was

974
01:01:14.185 –> 01:01:16.125
some, like, magical halcyon place.

975
01:01:18.329 –> 01:01:22.010
Let’s have a real honest conversation about the good old days. Do you want

976
01:01:22.010 –> 01:01:25.690
your kid attending a hanging or do you want your kid watching cuties

977
01:01:25.690 –> 01:01:29.215
on. Or do you want your kid picking up a stone

978
01:01:29.515 –> 01:01:31.455
because that’s they’re part of the community?

979
01:01:33.520 –> 01:01:37.200
Like, like, do you really do? Yeah. Yeah. But this is, but this is, this

980
01:01:37.200 –> 01:01:40.875
is creating this, but this is the, this is the, This is the

981
01:01:40.875 –> 01:01:44.555
can of worms that Socrates opens by

982
01:01:44.555 –> 01:01:47.615
talking about what kind of people we want to have as guardians,

983
01:01:48.430 –> 01:01:51.550
What kind of people do we want to have in the state? And by the

984
01:01:51.550 –> 01:01:55.390
way, you’re writers. There are only certain levels of people that he believed were capable

985
01:01:55.390 –> 01:01:58.875
of handling education. So

986
01:01:59.095 –> 01:02:02.935
men, okay, landowners, okay, and

987
01:02:02.935 –> 01:02:06.490
then the Romans took it a step further and said, who served in war? Women

988
01:02:06.490 –> 01:02:09.550
were out. They weren’t part of the franchise. Okay?

989
01:02:10.650 –> 01:02:13.630
Children were literal property.

990
01:02:14.484 –> 01:02:17.924
Literal property. Matter of fact, in ancient Greek

991
01:02:17.924 –> 01:02:21.365
culture, they did not have a conception of homosexuality or

992
01:02:21.365 –> 01:02:25.120
pedophilia in the way that we conceive of that sort of thing.

993
01:02:25.440 –> 01:02:29.040
The the the philosophy or the theology that gave us that

994
01:02:29.040 –> 01:02:32.174
idea that that might be a Not a great thing,

995
01:02:32.714 –> 01:02:36.255
that child’s not maybe property, was Christianity.

996
01:02:37.674 –> 01:02:41.250
They were really the precursors of that and

997
01:02:41.250 –> 01:02:45.010
Judaism, like Jerusalem met Athens and all of a sudden Athens

998
01:02:45.010 –> 01:02:47.750
went, oh, particularly Athenian women,

999
01:02:48.585 –> 01:02:52.265
went oh, oh, oh,

1000
01:02:52.265 –> 01:02:55.705
oh, that means we have to protect our kids. Oh, and that also means we

1001
01:02:55.705 –> 01:02:59.160
have writers. And then Athenian Men went and jumped off a cliff somewhere.

1002
01:03:04.395 –> 01:03:07.994
Someone said, release the kraken and they just all fell. Yeah. I was just fell

1003
01:03:07.994 –> 01:03:11.755
in the water. I I I kid,

1004
01:03:11.755 –> 01:03:15.420
ladies. I kid. But it’s taken a

1005
01:03:15.420 –> 01:03:19.100
long time in the West for us to work through these ideas of who

1006
01:03:19.100 –> 01:03:22.815
has franchise and who doesn’t. And the most radical I still

1007
01:03:22.815 –> 01:03:26.435
will say those radical country on the planet that has taken this idea of franchise.

1008
01:03:27.215 –> 01:03:30.690
We’re even doing it with gender now. We’re the most radical

1009
01:03:30.690 –> 01:03:34.150
country on the planet because we’ve taken this idea of franchise

1010
01:03:34.770 –> 01:03:37.109
and we’ve blown the doors off of it,

1011
01:03:38.545 –> 01:03:42.144
which I believe would shock Socrates. It would shock you talk about

1012
01:03:42.144 –> 01:03:45.765
television, I don’t think he’d be shocked so much by that

1013
01:03:46.500 –> 01:03:50.100
as by the idea that all of these folks get to

1014
01:03:50.100 –> 01:03:53.815
vote and get to have a say in the demos. They get to

1015
01:03:53.815 –> 01:03:57.494
have a say in the democracy. To him, that would be

1016
01:03:57.494 –> 01:04:00.935
outrageous because what sort of person has a

1017
01:04:00.935 –> 01:04:04.760
society produced who goes

1018
01:04:04.760 –> 01:04:07.160
and attends and takes their kid and goes and attend to, I’m gonna go to

1019
01:04:07.160 –> 01:04:10.760
the least controversial one in my example list there, takes their kid to go see

1020
01:04:10.760 –> 01:04:14.204
a hanging. What sort of society is producing that kind of person who doesn’t

1021
01:04:14.204 –> 01:04:17.984
know morally that they shouldn’t not not religiously,

1022
01:04:18.285 –> 01:04:21.849
not based on Jesus, based on Greek philosophy knows they probably

1023
01:04:21.849 –> 01:04:25.630
shouldn’t probably not a good idea to take that kid to go see, by hanging.

1024
01:04:28.525 –> 01:04:32.285
What kind of society produces that, that, that essays that’s okay. That

1025
01:04:32.285 –> 01:04:36.000
would bake his gourd. Yeah. True. I I

1026
01:04:36.000 –> 01:04:39.680
got no rebuttal. I I I think that would I think that would really

1027
01:04:39.760 –> 01:04:43.440
but but well, it’s making the noodle of people who are around now. So

1028
01:04:45.265 –> 01:04:47.684
Okay. Worldview.

1029
01:04:49.505 –> 01:04:53.265
We can make this short. What kind of worldview should a

1030
01:04:53.265 –> 01:04:54.085
leader have?

1031
01:04:59.190 –> 01:05:01.510
And by the way, I’ve been holding on to this question for you since we

1032
01:05:01.510 –> 01:05:05.195
started talking about Shakespeare last year. I’ve been holding my powder

1033
01:05:05.195 –> 01:05:08.795
on this question for you because I have an idea of the

1034
01:05:08.795 –> 01:05:10.815
answer to it, but I wanna hear what your ideas.

1035
01:05:13.270 –> 01:05:17.030
You know, it’s so it’s so weird. Like, I never really gave

1036
01:05:17.190 –> 01:05:20.170
and I I don’t I don’t give much thought to that because

1037
01:05:20.585 –> 01:05:21.565
I’m so,

1038
01:05:25.224 –> 01:05:29.065
I book, my kids and I have this conversation a lot because my

1039
01:05:29.065 –> 01:05:32.309
son will come home and be like, Dad, did you read the latest thing that

1040
01:05:32.309 –> 01:05:35.930
somebody said over in China or Ukraine or whatever? And I’ll go,

1041
01:05:35.990 –> 01:05:39.515
and how’s that impacting you right now? Like like, what what exactly

1042
01:05:39.595 –> 01:05:43.375
what changes in your life if that really happens?

1043
01:05:43.595 –> 01:05:47.290
Whatever that is. Again, whether, you You know, whether Russia drops a

1044
01:05:47.290 –> 01:05:51.130
nuke on Ukraine or China decides to, you

1045
01:05:51.130 –> 01:05:54.645
know, blow up Taiwan, whatever. Right? Like, whatever the whatever the

1046
01:05:55.045 –> 01:05:58.425
The or, you know, I think one of his latest ones was something about,

1047
01:05:59.525 –> 01:06:03.305
like, a Chinese war vessel coming too close to an American

1048
01:06:03.480 –> 01:06:07.240
or some I don’t something like that, and I was like, and? They do that

1049
01:06:07.240 –> 01:06:10.760
stuff all the Tom. You just don’t know about it because it’s not, like, but

1050
01:06:10.760 –> 01:06:14.185
the fact that it’s being published today is now impacting your day like, you’re allowing

1051
01:06:14.185 –> 01:06:17.785
this to rent space in your head. Why don’t you let people that know a

1052
01:06:17.785 –> 01:06:21.325
little bit more about what’s going on worry about that instead of you? Right? Like,

1053
01:06:21.465 –> 01:06:25.289
so And and Sorrells like, well, don’t aren’t you worried about

1054
01:06:25.289 –> 01:06:28.670
this starting a a a world war blow? And I’m like, nope.

1055
01:06:28.970 –> 01:06:32.075
Nope. Here here’s my I I I I don’t think there’s a country on the

1056
01:06:32.075 –> 01:06:35.835
planet that wants to see the entire world blown to smithereens, so they’re

1057
01:06:35.835 –> 01:06:39.530
gonna do all do anything in in their power To not have World

1058
01:06:39.530 –> 01:06:43.370
War 3 happen. Like, they’ve already seen this twice.

1059
01:06:43.370 –> 01:06:46.570
They’ve read that book. They don’t like the outcome. They’re not gonna do it all

1060
01:06:46.570 –> 01:06:50.395
over again. Now that being said, Not suggesting that everything is copacetic and everybody’s,

1061
01:06:50.395 –> 01:06:53.755
you know, singing Kumbaya around the campfire. I I get I’m not I’m you know,

1062
01:06:53.755 –> 01:06:57.035
I’m realistic. I know that the United States and China are never gonna have a

1063
01:06:57.035 –> 01:07:00.860
great relationship. The United States and Russia are never gonna be best

1064
01:07:00.860 –> 01:07:04.300
buds. Like, it’s not like it’s not like the bullying in the in the

1065
01:07:04.300 –> 01:07:07.954
the the coming of age movie where The bully picks on the kid, the

1066
01:07:07.954 –> 01:07:11.714
kid fights back, and now they’re best friends, like, that’s not gonna happen, writers? Like,

1067
01:07:11.714 –> 01:07:15.500
we know that. But what we do know is that, Here’s

1068
01:07:15.500 –> 01:07:19.099
my, I’ll move on. I’ll try to answer your question in a second,

1069
01:07:19.099 –> 01:07:22.880
but I also feel like

1070
01:07:23.055 –> 01:07:26.495
It’s gonna stay like this for

1071
01:07:26.495 –> 01:07:29.715
all time until we have some sort of

1072
01:07:29.855 –> 01:07:33.630
external existential crisis that Forces the

1073
01:07:33.630 –> 01:07:37.310
human race to think of each other as a human race and not as Russian

1074
01:07:37.310 –> 01:07:40.210
or Chinese or American or like,

1075
01:07:41.085 –> 01:07:44.925
We all bleed red when we bleed. So what, like, I think it’s

1076
01:07:44.925 –> 01:07:48.765
gonna be like, again, go back to the movies. It’s gonna be some alien

1077
01:07:48.765 –> 01:07:52.400
invasion or Some Tom hitting the earth that wakes us

1078
01:07:52.400 –> 01:07:56.180
up to realize that we should be thinking of this as

1079
01:07:56.800 –> 01:08:00.224
a a worldly unit instead of individual countries. And if we

1080
01:08:00.224 –> 01:08:03.905
solve this, whatever problem is coming at us, then we’re

1081
01:08:03.905 –> 01:08:06.545
gonna be better off for it. Then we’re gonna be better off as a, as

1082
01:08:06.545 –> 01:08:09.320
a world for it. Right. You do know that there will still be you do

1083
01:08:09.320 –> 01:08:12.060
know there will still be those people though that will claim it’s all a conspiracy

1084
01:08:12.280 –> 01:08:16.025
from the new world order and and and and that the reptilian

1085
01:08:16.725 –> 01:08:20.325
aimed leaders are, like, nonsense from Klaus

1086
01:08:20.325 –> 01:08:22.965
Schwab. You know that you know that. Right? There aren’t going to be that commodore

1087
01:08:22.965 –> 01:08:26.520
people who are going to be like, I don’t wanna go along with your new

1088
01:08:26.520 –> 01:08:30.120
glorious utopia. Yes. I get it.

1089
01:08:30.120 –> 01:08:33.864
Alright. Yeah. Yeah. But Answer the question. But, again, so so

1090
01:08:33.864 –> 01:08:37.705
so in that so in that case in that case, right, so you asked me,

1091
01:08:37.705 –> 01:08:40.780
what kind of leader do I want? Right? Like, what kind of world Yeah. What

1092
01:08:40.780 –> 01:08:44.000
kind of world view do you want your leader to have? So

1093
01:08:44.140 –> 01:08:47.965
so I essentially And And by the

1094
01:08:47.965 –> 01:08:50.205
way, world doesn’t have to be in the global world. It could just be the

1095
01:08:50.205 –> 01:08:54.045
world of, like, their backyard. Well, no. No. No. No.

1096
01:08:54.045 –> 01:08:57.819
I I I was thinking there’s a first. Right? Because Okay. Because if you think

1097
01:08:57.819 –> 01:09:01.340
about it, like, everything else can work backwards because when it comes to my

1098
01:09:01.340 –> 01:09:04.700
home, I can be a little selfish, but I don’t wanna be selfish when it

1099
01:09:04.700 –> 01:09:08.274
comes to My city Mhmm. I could be a little

1100
01:09:08.274 –> 01:09:11.975
selfish with the city, but not selfish. Mhmm. When it comes to the state,

1101
01:09:12.194 –> 01:09:15.380
the selfishness should go even further away and and so on and so

1102
01:09:15.859 –> 01:09:19.000
So it becomes it becomes to a point where, like,

1103
01:09:20.100 –> 01:09:23.935
it’s it’s almost like I want them to put I want

1104
01:09:23.935 –> 01:09:27.075
their worldview to be humanity first,

1105
01:09:28.814 –> 01:09:32.560
our country second. You know what I

1106
01:09:32.560 –> 01:09:36.080
mean? Like, it like it’s like it’s like it’s almost like a hierarchy of of

1107
01:09:36.080 –> 01:09:39.300
thinking as opposed to just a linear view of thinking.

1108
01:09:39.520 –> 01:09:43.035
Because, Again, the best way I can describe it is

1109
01:09:43.495 –> 01:09:47.335
the local politicians in my city, they’re my neighbors, I

1110
01:09:47.335 –> 01:09:50.470
know them. I can walk, I can pick up the phone and call them and

1111
01:09:50.470 –> 01:09:53.910
say, Hey, I don’t like the way you voted on this, I need, like, what’s

1112
01:09:53.910 –> 01:09:57.705
going on with this? They can talk me through it 1 on 1, You’re when

1113
01:09:57.705 –> 01:10:01.545
you talk about so so I can I can get I have a much firmer

1114
01:10:01.545 –> 01:10:05.145
grasp on our local government and how it impacts me on a day to day

1115
01:10:05.145 –> 01:10:08.720
basis? Again, go back to my conversation with my son. Mhmm.

1116
01:10:08.720 –> 01:10:12.480
China sending a destroyer or whatever

1117
01:10:12.480 –> 01:10:15.875
their warships are called Buzzing by a

1118
01:10:15.875 –> 01:10:19.475
US fleet does not change what my

1119
01:10:19.475 –> 01:10:23.230
grocery prices are at the grocery store Tomorrow. No. But the

1120
01:10:23.230 –> 01:10:26.830
tax hike that my local government pushes or

1121
01:10:26.830 –> 01:10:30.575
whatever Mhmm. Book. Good. That impacts me immediately. Writers?

1122
01:10:30.575 –> 01:10:34.335
So something that impacts me immediately, I expect them to

1123
01:10:34.335 –> 01:10:38.094
have more or I expect to be able to be worried

1124
01:10:38.094 –> 01:10:41.160
about more. How does it impact me? How do I work on this? It doesn’t

1125
01:10:41.160 –> 01:10:44.680
impact all of humanity. It impacts me personally, 1 on 1. It

1126
01:10:44.680 –> 01:10:48.220
impacts me. As I go up the ladder on

1127
01:10:48.665 –> 01:10:52.264
Governmental Sorrells, I’m

1128
01:10:52.264 –> 01:10:55.804
more worried about how it impacts the selection of me’s

1129
01:10:56.260 –> 01:10:59.880
And not necessarily me personally because more times than not,

1130
01:10:59.940 –> 01:11:03.460
it a decision they make, again, would it go from

1131
01:11:03.460 –> 01:11:07.015
local to state? It’s still there. Mhmm. Like, our state

1132
01:11:07.015 –> 01:11:10.775
government impacts me a little bit. They change, they change a tax

1133
01:11:10.775 –> 01:11:14.250
law or they change some sort of, You know,

1134
01:11:15.429 –> 01:11:18.710
speed limit on the on a on a on my favorite road or whatever. Like,

1135
01:11:18.710 –> 01:11:22.545
yeah, that can impact me a little bit, but it impacts More of our gen

1136
01:11:22.704 –> 01:11:26.145
localized society. So our localized society should

1137
01:11:26.145 –> 01:11:29.764
be should be your thought process when you’re trying to make that law.

1138
01:11:29.950 –> 01:11:33.790
Our federal government essays the more removed you are from the government

1139
01:11:33.790 –> 01:11:37.550
level, the more I want them thinking about the whole and

1140
01:11:37.550 –> 01:11:41.275
not the individual person. Right? Like Okay. So that and so

1141
01:11:41.275 –> 01:11:44.955
to your to your question about the worldview, I I really think that our world

1142
01:11:44.955 –> 01:11:47.915
leaders in general, all of them, not just the United States, I think all of

1143
01:11:47.915 –> 01:11:51.630
our world leaders Should be thinking about humanity first. What

1144
01:11:51.630 –> 01:11:54.990
is good for humanity as a whole and then what is good for my

1145
01:11:54.990 –> 01:11:58.130
country? But that’s definitely not the way they think. Right?

1146
01:11:59.805 –> 01:12:03.085
But if they did if they did, I think we would I think the world

1147
01:12:03.085 –> 01:12:06.845
would be a better place. I think we’d well, and I think I think

1148
01:12:06.845 –> 01:12:10.369
some of the bedeviling problems that we consistently

1149
01:12:10.670 –> 01:12:12.050
yell and scream about.

1150
01:12:14.350 –> 01:12:17.785
For instance, this idea of,

1151
01:12:18.885 –> 01:12:22.505
social justice, right? Which is, which is an all consuming

1152
01:12:22.645 –> 01:12:26.170
idea, now in our in our particular

1153
01:12:26.230 –> 01:12:30.070
cultural moment, and

1154
01:12:30.070 –> 01:12:33.764
diversity, equity, and inclusion, and, you know, know, who gets to be the president of

1155
01:12:33.764 –> 01:12:37.605
Harvard and whatever. Okay. Well, you know, I had

1156
01:12:37.605 –> 01:12:41.045
to drop that in there because Like, I was waiting, I was waiting for

1157
01:12:41.045 –> 01:12:44.890
it. I have some thoughts on that,

1158
01:12:45.110 –> 01:12:48.950
but that’s neither here nor there. Well well, actually, no. You

1159
01:12:48.950 –> 01:12:52.415
know what? No. What kind of person do we want to

1160
01:12:52.415 –> 01:12:56.094
lead Harvard? What kind

1161
01:12:56.094 –> 01:12:58.994
of person do we want to lead IBM?

1162
01:13:00.800 –> 01:13:04.480
What kind of person do we want to lead any of these

1163
01:13:04.480 –> 01:13:07.380
multinational corporations and or,

1164
01:13:08.745 –> 01:13:12.105
public private entities like Harvard that have

1165
01:13:12.105 –> 01:13:15.840
endowments of over $1,000,000,000 or that

1166
01:13:15.840 –> 01:13:19.440
where the CEO is making $50,000 a

1167
01:13:19.440 –> 01:13:21.780
month and runs a small country.

1168
01:13:23.255 –> 01:13:26.875
Yeah. What kind of worldview do we want those folks to have? Because

1169
01:13:27.175 –> 01:13:30.775
those books. Pache politicians to your

1170
01:13:30.775 –> 01:13:34.540
point, politicians having a worldview that focuses on humanity the higher up

1171
01:13:34.540 –> 01:13:38.300
they go. Okay. I I I I I might push back and

1172
01:13:38.300 –> 01:13:41.715
poke a little bit on that, but in general, Okay. I can go along with

1173
01:13:41.715 –> 01:13:44.695
that, but when we talk about a multinational

1174
01:13:45.074 –> 01:13:48.780
fortune 500 company where the

1175
01:13:48.780 –> 01:13:52.460
person is is Jesan behaving as if they are a

1176
01:13:52.460 –> 01:13:54.960
politician or a president of a small country,

1177
01:13:56.365 –> 01:14:00.045
but they do not have the posture of being oriented towards

1178
01:14:00.045 –> 01:14:03.645
humanity even though they may say they do. To

1179
01:14:03.645 –> 01:14:07.130
paraphrase from Elon Musk, I am also tired of people

1180
01:14:07.270 –> 01:14:10.730
who want to look good, but do evil. Mhmm.

1181
01:14:11.190 –> 01:14:14.284
I’ve also had enough of that. Yeah.

1182
01:14:16.025 –> 01:14:19.784
So, you know, I don’t have the power to change

1183
01:14:19.784 –> 01:14:23.170
that just as as we do in politics, Stop buying their products.

1184
01:14:23.390 –> 01:14:26.930
Right. Exactly. But we don’t. You know, we don’t because,

1185
01:14:27.310 –> 01:14:30.989
you know, whatever. Samsung has the best technology on the phones or iPhone

1186
01:14:30.989 –> 01:14:34.385
or Apple has the best music selection. Whatever that whatever

1187
01:14:34.385 –> 01:14:37.605
your whatever your justification is because

1188
01:14:38.224 –> 01:14:42.010
that impacts you Personally. Right. Right?

1189
01:14:42.010 –> 01:14:45.610
Like, so Right. Right. Right. And so what kind of people do we we we

1190
01:14:45.610 –> 01:14:49.435
we cannot get away from this these these 2 questions being locked together. What

1191
01:14:49.435 –> 01:14:52.715
kind of worldview do we want people to have and what sort of society do

1192
01:14:52.715 –> 01:14:56.395
we want to, to have produce these kinds of

1193
01:14:56.395 –> 01:14:59.540
folks? And by the way, This is why people keep reading the republic,

1194
01:15:00.639 –> 01:15:04.400
and this is why it is so influential because these questions run

1195
01:15:04.400 –> 01:15:08.045
through everything from politics economics, to warfare. I mean, we’ve talked about

1196
01:15:08.045 –> 01:15:11.505
all of this. Cultural entertainment, all of it. It’s it’s all

1197
01:15:11.805 –> 01:15:15.590
impacted here, which means it’s, of course, what

1198
01:15:15.590 –> 01:15:19.429
is not discourse? These 2 questions locked together are

1199
01:15:19.429 –> 01:15:23.130
of course part of a human problem.

1200
01:15:25.065 –> 01:15:28.344
Regardless, by the way, even of time and climb. You know, they’re reading the Republic

1201
01:15:28.344 –> 01:15:32.030
of Plato, you know, in in the

1202
01:15:32.030 –> 01:15:35.710
Muslim world. They’re reading the Republic of Plato in Argentina. They’re

1203
01:15:35.710 –> 01:15:39.070
reading the Republic of Plato when it’s not censored by the

1204
01:15:39.070 –> 01:15:41.570
state in China.

1205
01:15:42.545 –> 01:15:45.905
So, you know, I mean, it’s it’s these

1206
01:15:45.905 –> 01:15:49.585
dialogues, these kinds of conversations, and and by the way, there is

1207
01:15:49.585 –> 01:15:53.180
no right answer. Socrates would say the

1208
01:15:53.180 –> 01:15:56.940
the conversation itself is the answer to the question because we have

1209
01:15:56.940 –> 01:15:59.360
to talk these things out. Otherwise,

1210
01:16:00.405 –> 01:16:04.085
authoritarian guardians will come in, authoritarian leaders will come in,

1211
01:16:04.085 –> 01:16:07.925
and just set up a leadership. Yeah. Which, by the way, the Romans

1212
01:16:07.925 –> 01:16:11.710
really liked. By the way, by the way, there

1213
01:16:11.710 –> 01:16:15.363
are there are companies, and and you can you can there’s plenty of other

1214
01:16:15.363 –> 01:16:18.835
podcast that talk about this, but and you hear our Our

1215
01:16:18.835 –> 01:16:22.435
mutual, our mutual colleague, JP, talk about conscious capitalism all the

1216
01:16:22.435 –> 01:16:25.875
time. That’s the the Patagonias of the world that are really

1217
01:16:25.875 –> 01:16:29.590
trying to put humanity first. They don’t always succeed, and they’re

1218
01:16:29.590 –> 01:16:33.030
not perfect at it. So I’m not suggesting that go go, you know, go buy

1219
01:16:33.030 –> 01:16:36.710
all Patagonia products because they’re the best company in the world. I’m not suggesting that.

1220
01:16:36.710 –> 01:16:40.045
I’m just saying that companies like Patagonia are at least

1221
01:16:40.585 –> 01:16:44.025
putting forth the effort where to to your point

1222
01:16:44.025 –> 01:16:47.610
where you’re done you’re not just trying to make it look good. You’re actually physically

1223
01:16:48.010 –> 01:16:51.770
trying to do the right thing. And and For sure. Whether you succeed or

1224
01:16:51.770 –> 01:16:55.469
fail, sometimes is not the most important thing to a consumer.

1225
01:16:55.610 –> 01:16:59.015
But the fact that you are Doing that, you’re trying. I think if more

1226
01:16:59.015 –> 01:17:02.775
companies kinda bought into this Patagonia style of of

1227
01:17:02.775 –> 01:17:06.449
thinking, we might make some impact. But again, it it’s the

1228
01:17:06.449 –> 01:17:10.050
consumer that forces that issue, by the way. So we as consumers have the

1229
01:17:10.050 –> 01:17:13.555
power to look at a company like IBM, PepsiCo,

1230
01:17:13.615 –> 01:17:17.215
Coca Cola, any one of these giant companies and

1231
01:17:17.215 –> 01:17:20.895
say, we’re just not gonna buy your products anymore until you until you start

1232
01:17:20.895 –> 01:17:24.490
looking at this From a global perspective and and a and a humanities

1233
01:17:24.490 –> 01:17:27.290
perspective. Well, and I think that is already starting to happen. A matter of fact,

1234
01:17:27.290 –> 01:17:30.625
I think that’s been happening for the last 10 because what you’re long in that,

1235
01:17:30.625 –> 01:17:34.385
the very first instance of conscious capitalism brought to the attention was

1236
01:17:34.385 –> 01:17:38.100
1984. Okay. 1984. Okay. Going back to 1984,

1237
01:17:38.400 –> 01:17:42.000
but I don’t think it really hit, hit, It

1238
01:17:42.000 –> 01:17:44.480
hasn’t hit it hasn’t hit it. It hasn’t hit it. It hasn’t hit the launching

1239
01:17:44.480 –> 01:17:48.105
pad till about 5 years ago. Right. Writers, and I and I think

1240
01:17:48.105 –> 01:17:51.085
that that the the thing that was missing in 1984

1241
01:17:53.225 –> 01:17:57.010
that really got ramped up probably about 5 or

1242
01:17:57.010 –> 01:17:59.830
6 years ago, is the ability

1243
01:18:00.690 –> 01:18:04.130
of individual people to understand how social media works

1244
01:18:04.795 –> 01:18:08.635
Yeah. And to socially connect with each other in smaller and smaller

1245
01:18:08.635 –> 01:18:12.460
groups further and further away from the dominant center.

1246
01:18:12.460 –> 01:18:16.239
So you’re seeing this all over the place. You talk about conscious capitalism.

1247
01:18:16.380 –> 01:18:19.360
Okay? It’s also happening in,

1248
01:18:20.765 –> 01:18:24.445
various Christian sects in the United States. They’re falling apart

1249
01:18:24.445 –> 01:18:28.290
left and right. Yeah. But you’ve got Pastors

1250
01:18:29.070 –> 01:18:32.530
who draw no more than a 100 bodies to their church,

1251
01:18:33.550 –> 01:18:37.285
who are publishing their sermons on YouTube and are generating

1252
01:18:37.285 –> 01:18:41.045
millions and millions of views, and people are

1253
01:18:41.045 –> 01:18:44.745
connecting to them who never would go to that church.

1254
01:18:45.290 –> 01:18:48.889
Right. Yeah. Right. So the

1255
01:18:48.889 –> 01:18:51.469
majority report may say

1256
01:18:53.055 –> 01:18:56.575
Or no, the majority report may include large

1257
01:18:56.575 –> 01:19:00.340
organizations like Patagonia that’s been doing what they’ve

1258
01:19:00.340 –> 01:19:04.100
been doing since they were since they were first founded, right, back in

1259
01:19:04.100 –> 01:19:07.880
the 19 eighties. But that report also has to include

1260
01:19:08.395 –> 01:19:12.074
All of these other smaller entities that have popped up because of the

1261
01:19:12.074 –> 01:19:15.835
nature of connection with social connection. Now people actually understand how

1262
01:19:15.835 –> 01:19:19.300
social connection works online, and we have to

1263
01:19:19.300 –> 01:19:23.140
acknowledge, the fracturing and disruptive

1264
01:19:23.140 –> 01:19:26.935
power of the Internet and its ability to

1265
01:19:26.935 –> 01:19:30.475
connect people of like mind. So

1266
01:19:30.695 –> 01:19:34.100
if I really don’t want to buy

1267
01:19:34.100 –> 01:19:37.780
guns. Not not I’m gonna say buy guns. If I really,

1268
01:19:37.780 –> 01:19:41.380
really don’t like, I’m gonna pick a really hot button topic here. If I really,

1269
01:19:41.380 –> 01:19:44.864
really don’t like abortion, I can connect with a bunch of people online that really,

1270
01:19:45.025 –> 01:19:48.625
really, really don’t like abortion, and I don’t really care how you feel about

1271
01:19:48.625 –> 01:19:51.869
it. I don’t like abortion. I connected with a bunch of people who don’t like

1272
01:19:51.869 –> 01:19:54.590
abortion. Now we’re all gonna get together and we’re gonna do whatever it is we’re

1273
01:19:54.590 –> 01:19:58.290
gonna do. Or on the opposite side of that, I really, really like abortion.

1274
01:19:58.295 –> 01:20:01.574
I’m gonna find a whole bunch of people who support that and we’re gonna connect

1275
01:20:01.574 –> 01:20:05.094
together, and I don’t really care what you feel about that either. Right. And

1276
01:20:05.094 –> 01:20:08.930
this creates Remember that idea of chaos I was talking about when you look

1277
01:20:08.930 –> 01:20:12.690
at it from the outside? This creates more chaos. This creates more

1278
01:20:12.690 –> 01:20:16.165
fracturing because what the Internet does as a

1279
01:20:16.165 –> 01:20:19.385
connection machine, but also as a broadcast machine,

1280
01:20:20.085 –> 01:20:23.845
is it podcast solve these fracturing Tom to the world,

1281
01:20:23.845 –> 01:20:27.469
by the way. Now that could be interesting for connection

1282
01:20:27.469 –> 01:20:30.830
because, to go back to the hot button topic, if I don’t really really like

1283
01:20:30.830 –> 01:20:34.415
abortion in Iowa, but no one in my neighborhood cares

1284
01:20:34.715 –> 01:20:38.335
and never has. I could connect with somebody in

1285
01:20:38.795 –> 01:20:42.489
Germany that cares, and now it’s a

1286
01:20:42.489 –> 01:20:46.250
global thing. You talk about humanity. Now it’s a global thing. Now I’m connected with

1287
01:20:46.250 –> 01:20:49.050
someone in Jesan. I’m connected with someone in Russia. I’m connected with a group in

1288
01:20:49.050 –> 01:20:52.855
Argentina who all really really don’t like abortion, and now we’re all working

1289
01:20:52.855 –> 01:20:55.034
together to stop abortions.

1290
01:20:57.290 –> 01:20:59.390
And I’m not working with people who are in my backyard.

1291
01:21:00.890 –> 01:21:04.270
That looks chaotic. That’s the chaotic power of the Internet,

1292
01:21:07.455 –> 01:21:11.295
and I don’t think we know how to handle that at all. No. I I

1293
01:21:11.295 –> 01:21:15.100
I agree. I don’t think we do either, And and but, well, again, this I

1294
01:21:15.100 –> 01:21:18.639
think this is I think this whole this part could potentially be a conversation

1295
01:21:18.699 –> 01:21:22.405
for all by itself because Oh, yeah. Because it’s, You

1296
01:21:22.405 –> 01:21:26.245
know, it Tom might actually it might be more of an illusion of

1297
01:21:26.245 –> 01:21:29.945
chaos versus actual chaos be be because

1298
01:21:30.380 –> 01:21:33.820
Because, again, so think about it, what you just said, person in Iowa connects with

1299
01:21:33.820 –> 01:21:37.100
a person in Germany, now it’s a global thing, blah blah blah. But does that

1300
01:21:37.100 –> 01:21:40.494
does that global thing, Is that able to

1301
01:21:40.494 –> 01:21:43.635
impact the the Ios state government?

1302
01:21:43.855 –> 01:21:47.610
Probably not. So it’s an illusion of chaos. It’s an illusion of

1303
01:21:47.610 –> 01:21:51.449
chaos versus actual chaos. But with climate change, to go to something that’s

1304
01:21:51.449 –> 01:21:54.945
very popular, with climate change, Okay.

1305
01:21:55.325 –> 01:21:58.925
I can connect if I’m a small group of activists in

1306
01:21:58.925 –> 01:22:02.205
Nebraska, not to pick on Iowa, not gonna go to Nebraska. Yeah. If I’m a

1307
01:22:02.205 –> 01:22:05.810
small group of activists in Nebraska, I connect with

1308
01:22:06.030 –> 01:22:09.710
globally every NGO on the planet that’s battling climate

1309
01:22:09.710 –> 01:22:13.070
change. And by the way, those NGOs have had

1310
01:22:13.070 –> 01:22:16.895
success in changing governmental policies in

1311
01:22:16.895 –> 01:22:20.434
these various countries at a at a supranational

1312
01:22:21.215 –> 01:22:24.909
level. That’s insane. That’s the power of the Internet. That

1313
01:22:24.909 –> 01:22:28.510
would not have happened in 1984. That’s the fundamental difference between

1314
01:22:28.510 –> 01:22:32.005
1984 and now. Right? And so I don’t think

1315
01:22:32.005 –> 01:22:35.605
we’ve really gotten our arms around the

1316
01:22:35.605 –> 01:22:38.310
disruptive power of the Internet as a communication tool,

1317
01:22:39.330 –> 01:22:43.010
much less the disruptive power of social media as a connection

1318
01:22:43.010 –> 01:22:46.150
tool. Not so much in a communication as an organization

1319
01:22:46.370 –> 01:22:50.215
tool. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Organization

1320
01:22:50.275 –> 01:22:53.955
tool. Okay. You’re gonna organize and mobilize a bunch of people. I

1321
01:22:53.955 –> 01:22:57.010
mean, think about it. A 100 years ago, we were putting Flyers on people’s doors

1322
01:22:57.010 –> 01:23:00.690
saying come back to city hall on Tuesday. Right? Like Right. Now we

1323
01:23:00.690 –> 01:23:04.530
have the we can expand that be well beyond our reach, of of our

1324
01:23:04.530 –> 01:23:08.325
physical reach, but Oh, yeah. But that doesn’t mean we can’t mobilize them to

1325
01:23:08.325 –> 01:23:12.165
to start like, you can you can actually mobilize protests on a

1326
01:23:12.165 –> 01:23:15.860
national level and synchronize them. Writers? Tom

1327
01:23:15.860 –> 01:23:18.900
your point, we haven’t done this yet, but I think I don’t think it’s far

1328
01:23:18.900 –> 01:23:22.740
away. Well, occupy occupy Wall Street was the first sort of beta

1329
01:23:22.740 –> 01:23:26.435
example of that. I would I would assert we have. Occupy Wall

1330
01:23:26.435 –> 01:23:30.135
Street was the 1st beta example. I think the

1331
01:23:30.195 –> 01:23:33.175
the black lives matter riots of 2020,

1332
01:23:34.260 –> 01:23:37.380
whether you think That to me was probably a closer example of what I was

1333
01:23:37.380 –> 01:23:40.820
talking about. Right. That’s a closer example. So you could actually organize those to

1334
01:23:40.820 –> 01:23:44.635
happen simultaneously. Right? Versus versus

1335
01:23:44.635 –> 01:23:48.395
in pockets, like Yep. Because we were reading about them as they were happening,

1336
01:23:48.395 –> 01:23:51.890
you know, Tuesday and then Friday and then Saturday and then 2 weeks from

1337
01:23:51.890 –> 01:23:55.730
now, another 1 in 2 week. I’m talking about globalizing your

1338
01:23:55.730 –> 01:23:59.490
mobilization through that org through that organized communication. Right?

1339
01:23:59.490 –> 01:24:02.765
Like, so you’re gonna be able to You’re I think you’re gonna see that sometime

1340
01:24:02.765 –> 01:24:05.485
in the very near future. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think people think Think of

1341
01:24:05.485 –> 01:24:08.765
it like flat think of it like flash mobs on a global scale. Oh, it’s

1342
01:24:08.765 –> 01:24:12.580
going on a global scale. Yeah. Well, the Canadian truckers are an example,

1343
01:24:13.760 –> 01:24:17.440
where that happened in real time. That’s true. I didn’t think of

1344
01:24:17.440 –> 01:24:20.995
them. Although it wasn’t I mean, it really wasn’t world news, but, you know, whatever.

1345
01:24:20.995 –> 01:24:23.635
It’s Yeah. Well, it was well, it was important for the people of the world

1346
01:24:23.635 –> 01:24:27.175
of Canada, you know, and, of course, in the world of Washington DC,

1347
01:24:27.630 –> 01:24:31.090
January 6th was an important thing for the people in Washington, DC.

1348
01:24:31.630 –> 01:24:35.310
Right. I’m gonna leave that aside. That’s it’s I’ve already talked touched on

1349
01:24:35.310 –> 01:24:38.415
abortion today. I already Said a word, I don’t need to go into any of

1350
01:24:38.415 –> 01:24:42.014
Russ’ fat over there. I’ll say it, I

1351
01:24:42.014 –> 01:24:45.850
agree. I think that the

1352
01:24:45.910 –> 01:24:49.510
concentric circles of connection and and

1353
01:24:49.510 –> 01:24:51.850
coordination. You talk about organization, coordination

1354
01:24:53.195 –> 01:24:56.335
are getting tighter and tighter. Yeah. Yeah.

1355
01:24:57.115 –> 01:25:00.415
Now what Tom what end and what impact that will have?

1356
01:25:02.170 –> 01:25:05.930
That remains to be seen, but I do, I do, I do hold to my

1357
01:25:05.930 –> 01:25:09.450
original thesis that we actually have no clue what we’ve

1358
01:25:09.450 –> 01:25:12.844
unleashed. I I think we’re at the beginning of that particular

1359
01:25:12.844 –> 01:25:16.284
revolution. We’re nowhere near the middle or the nowhere near the middle, much less the

1360
01:25:16.284 –> 01:25:20.090
end. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Back to the book. We gotta round the

1361
01:25:20.090 –> 01:25:23.050
corner. Back to the book. Books was a long segment. Back to the book. Back

1362
01:25:23.050 –> 01:25:26.755
to the Republic of Plato. The, the edition that I have

1363
01:25:26.835 –> 01:25:30.675
is is translated directly from the Greek with extensive notes. And and by

1364
01:25:30.675 –> 01:25:33.415
the way, the the version that I’ve got also had,

1365
01:25:34.730 –> 01:25:38.010
notes that were in it from a philosophy professor actually owned the book before me.

1366
01:25:38.010 –> 01:25:40.490
So it’s it’s kind of interesting to read those notes. If you could find an

1367
01:25:40.490 –> 01:25:44.175
annotated version with notes written in it by other people, you can

1368
01:25:44.175 –> 01:25:47.935
also get all of that extra information, as well and those

1369
01:25:47.935 –> 01:25:51.455
extra insights as well. Alright. Cool. So we’re gonna move to

1370
01:25:51.455 –> 01:25:55.099
chapter 12 here. We’re gonna read a little bit of a session here section

1371
01:25:55.099 –> 01:25:58.639
here on what should the virtues be of the state?

1372
01:25:58.699 –> 01:26:02.465
What should the the virtues be

1373
01:26:02.465 –> 01:26:05.845
that are the primary drivers for the guardians. What sort of people

1374
01:26:06.225 –> 01:26:09.940
should we have? And in particular, I like to frame this conversation

1375
01:26:10.160 –> 01:26:13.920
or or this this excerpt. In light of the idea, and

1376
01:26:13.920 –> 01:26:17.600
I’ve already said a couple Tom on this podcast, that I think America is coming

1377
01:26:17.600 –> 01:26:21.185
out of a, a chaotic cycle, and we’re about to go

1378
01:26:21.185 –> 01:26:25.025
into what I think is going to be a cultural, technological, and

1379
01:26:25.025 –> 01:26:28.800
potentially even economic high. And I think

1380
01:26:28.800 –> 01:26:32.640
that that is that is on the horizon. I could feel

1381
01:26:32.640 –> 01:26:36.260
it on the horizon. And again, I’m not a pollyanna.

1382
01:26:36.800 –> 01:26:40.145
If history tells us anything, though, I don’t think you’re being a Pollyanna because if

1383
01:26:40.145 –> 01:26:43.685
history tells us anything, that that is a very real probability.

1384
01:26:44.280 –> 01:26:47.960
Absolutely. Out of the great depression came some of the best

1385
01:26:47.960 –> 01:26:51.679
years of of economics in the United States. Out of the Vietnam War came some

1386
01:26:51.679 –> 01:26:54.775
of the best, out of the cold war came some of the best. Out of

1387
01:26:54.775 –> 01:26:58.615
9/11 came some of the like, so all these tragic events in human history

1388
01:26:58.615 –> 01:27:02.215
and and I’m sorry, in US history have had some way of turning the

1389
01:27:02.215 –> 01:27:05.880
economic corner for Jesan, And COVID is probably not

1390
01:27:05.880 –> 01:27:09.480
gonna be very different. I don’t think I I don’t think you’re, I don’t think

1391
01:27:09.480 –> 01:27:13.080
you’re so far off the the the the ledge here that

1392
01:27:13.080 –> 01:27:16.824
that I wouldn’t call you Paul Hannan because of that. Just knowing the

1393
01:27:16.824 –> 01:27:19.784
history the way I do, I think that I think people who are calling you

1394
01:27:19.784 –> 01:27:23.610
Paul Hannan probably aren’t, They’re not thinking back far enough to

1395
01:27:23.610 –> 01:27:26.489
realize that a lot of the stuff has already happened. We’ve seen this a couple

1396
01:27:26.730 –> 01:27:30.355
and and by the way, not even that far not that long ago, The the

1397
01:27:30.355 –> 01:27:34.195
banking collapse of 2008. Yep. Right? Right outside of

1398
01:27:34.195 –> 01:27:36.835
that, we had a couple of really rocky years, and then we had some of

1399
01:27:36.835 –> 01:27:40.500
our Lowest mortgage rates possible. Houses were going off the shelf like

1400
01:27:40.500 –> 01:27:44.315
crazy. People were are were getting people were quitting jobs without

1401
01:27:44.395 –> 01:27:47.755
Having a job lined up because they weren’t worried about their their employment. They thought

1402
01:27:47.755 –> 01:27:51.295
they could get a job tomorrow. Like, all that stuff happened after 08.

1403
01:27:51.730 –> 01:27:55.490
Mhmm. So I think I think you’re on to something about with

1404
01:27:55.490 –> 01:27:58.784
it. I don’t I don’t think you’re being at all. I think it’s Well, and

1405
01:27:58.784 –> 01:28:02.625
I think People are just forgetting their history. I and I think the I I

1406
01:28:02.705 –> 01:28:06.341
yeah. I agree with that. I also think these things go in 20 year Sorrells.

1407
01:28:06.465 –> 01:28:10.290
And so from 2001 to 2020. That’s in your

1408
01:28:10.290 –> 01:28:14.050
your I mean, we’re at the end of a 20 year cycle. Yeah. Will

1409
01:28:14.050 –> 01:28:17.830
there be some blowback and some shutoff and and some other yes. Absolutely.

1410
01:28:18.145 –> 01:28:21.505
But I think we’re at the end of a 20 year cycle. I also believe

1411
01:28:21.505 –> 01:28:24.864
that, fundamentally, we have to be looking at what we require of our

1412
01:28:24.864 –> 01:28:28.700
leaders because the leaders who The leaders who

1413
01:28:28.700 –> 01:28:32.140
were positioned to lead in chaos cannot be the same people who

1414
01:28:32.140 –> 01:28:35.675
lead in the position of a high. I agree with that

1415
01:28:35.675 –> 01:28:39.195
too. So chapter

1416
01:28:39.195 –> 01:28:42.255
12, virtues in the state, wisdom.

1417
01:28:43.480 –> 01:28:46.920
To begin then, the 1st quality to come into view in our state seems to

1418
01:28:46.920 –> 01:28:50.619
be its wisdom, and there appears to be something odd about this quality.

1419
01:28:51.344 –> 01:28:55.185
What is their ought about it? I think the state we have described

1420
01:28:55.185 –> 01:28:58.885
really, has wisdom for it will be prudent in counsel,

1421
01:28:58.945 –> 01:29:02.670
won’t it? Yes. And prudence and counsel is

1422
01:29:02.670 –> 01:29:06.270
clearly a form of knowledge. Good counsel cannot be due to ignorance and

1423
01:29:06.270 –> 01:29:09.994
stupidity. Clearly. But there are many and various kinds of

1424
01:29:09.994 –> 01:29:13.195
knowledge in our commonwealth. There is the knowledge possessed by the carpenters or the smiths

1425
01:29:13.195 –> 01:29:16.235
and the knowledge of how to raise crops. Are we to call the state wise

1426
01:29:16.235 –> 01:29:20.080
and prudent on the strength of these forms of skill. No. They

1427
01:29:20.080 –> 01:29:23.460
would only make it good at furniture making or working in copper or agriculture.

1428
01:29:24.245 –> 01:29:28.005
Well, then is there any form of knowledge possessed by by some among

1429
01:29:28.005 –> 01:29:31.525
the citizens of our newfound commonwealth, which will enable it to take

1430
01:29:31.525 –> 01:29:35.070
thought, not for some particular interest, but for the best possible conduct of the state

1431
01:29:35.070 –> 01:29:38.670
as a whole in its internal and external relations. Yes, there

1432
01:29:38.670 –> 01:29:41.505
is. Where is it and where does it reside?

1433
01:29:42.605 –> 01:29:46.285
It is precisely that art of guardianship which resides in those rulers whom we just

1434
01:29:46.285 –> 01:29:49.930
now call guardians in the full sense. And what would you call the state on

1435
01:29:49.930 –> 01:29:53.550
the strength of that knowledge, prudent and truly wise?

1436
01:29:54.650 –> 01:29:57.770
And do you think there will be more or fewer of these genuine guardians in

1437
01:29:57.770 –> 01:30:00.895
our state there will be Smith’s far fewer,

1438
01:30:01.835 –> 01:30:05.275
fewer in fact than any of those other groups who are called after the kinds

1439
01:30:05.275 –> 01:30:09.100
of skills they possess much fewer. So if a state is

1440
01:30:09.100 –> 01:30:12.940
constituted on natural principles, the wisdom it possesses as a whole will

1441
01:30:12.940 –> 01:30:15.659
be due to the knowledge residing in the smallest part, the one which takes the

1442
01:30:15.659 –> 01:30:19.445
lead and governs the rest. Such knowledge is the only kind that deserves the name

1443
01:30:19.445 –> 01:30:23.125
of wisdom and it appears to be ordained by nature that the class privileged to

1444
01:30:23.125 –> 01:30:26.505
possess it should be the smallest of all. Quite true.

1445
01:30:27.450 –> 01:30:31.210
Here then, we have more or less made out of our 1 made out one

1446
01:30:31.210 –> 01:30:35.025
of our 4 qualities and its seat in the structure of our commonwealth, to my

1447
01:30:35.025 –> 01:30:38.545
satisfaction at any rate. Next, there is

1448
01:30:38.545 –> 01:30:42.065
courage. It is not hard to discern that quality or the part of the community

1449
01:30:42.065 –> 01:30:45.750
in which it resides as to a title, the whole to be called brave. Why

1450
01:30:45.750 –> 01:30:49.030
do you say so? Because anyone who speaks of a state is either brave or

1451
01:30:49.030 –> 01:30:51.750
cowardly can only be thinking of that part of it, which takes the field and

1452
01:30:51.750 –> 01:30:55.094
fights in its defense. The reason being, I imagine that the character of the state

1453
01:30:55.094 –> 01:30:58.875
is not determined by the bravery or cowards of the other parts. No.

1454
01:30:59.790 –> 01:31:03.630
Charge that is another quality which a community owes to a certain part of

1455
01:31:03.630 –> 01:31:07.445
itself. And it’s being brave will mean that In

1456
01:31:07.445 –> 01:31:11.285
this part, it possesses the power of preserving in all circumstances, a

1457
01:31:11.285 –> 01:31:14.760
conviction about the sort of things that it is right to be afraid of, the

1458
01:31:14.920 –> 01:31:18.760
Conviction Implanted by the Education which the Lawgiver Has Established. Is that not what you

1459
01:31:18.760 –> 01:31:22.519
mean by courage? I I do not quite understand. Will will you

1460
01:31:22.519 –> 01:31:26.054
say it again? I am saying that courage means

1461
01:31:26.054 –> 01:31:29.594
preserving something. Yes, but what?

1462
01:31:30.535 –> 01:31:34.120
The conviction incultated by lawfully established education

1463
01:31:34.500 –> 01:31:38.180
about the sorts of things which may be rightly be feared. When I

1464
01:31:38.180 –> 01:31:41.915
add in all circumstances, is, I mean, preserving it always and never abandoning

1465
01:31:41.915 –> 01:31:45.755
it, whether under the influence of pain or of pleasure, of desire

1466
01:31:45.755 –> 01:31:46.495
or fear.

1467
01:31:49.840 –> 01:31:52.100
And then we’re gonna move forward a little bit.

1468
01:31:54.240 –> 01:31:57.540
2 qualities I went on still remain to be made out in our state, temperance

1469
01:31:57.665 –> 01:32:01.345
and the object of our whole inquiry, justice. Can we

1470
01:32:01.345 –> 01:32:05.060
discover justice without troubling ourselves further about temperance? I do

1471
01:32:05.060 –> 01:32:07.780
not know. And I would rather not have justice come into light first, if that

1472
01:32:07.780 –> 01:32:10.740
means we should not go on to consider temperance. So if you please, take me

1473
01:32:10.740 –> 01:32:14.475
to temperance first. Of course, I have every wish to please you. Do go on

1474
01:32:14.475 –> 01:32:18.235
then. I will. At first sight, temperament seems

1475
01:32:18.235 –> 01:32:21.614
more like some sort of concord or harmony than the other qualities

1476
01:32:21.675 –> 01:32:25.340
did. How so? Temperament surely means a kind of

1477
01:32:25.340 –> 01:32:28.560
orderliness, a control of certain pleasures and appetites.

1478
01:32:29.180 –> 01:32:32.655
People use the expression master of oneself, whatever that

1479
01:32:32.655 –> 01:32:35.715
means, and various other phrases that point the same way.

1480
01:32:36.335 –> 01:32:40.179
Quite true. Is not master of oneself, an absurd expression,

1481
01:32:40.480 –> 01:32:44.000
a man who was master of himself would presumably also be subject to

1482
01:32:44.000 –> 01:32:47.435
himself and the subject would be the master where all these terms apply to the

1483
01:32:47.435 –> 01:32:51.135
same Jesan, no doubt. I think, however,

1484
01:32:51.355 –> 01:32:54.735
the phrase means that within the man himself in his soul,

1485
01:32:55.080 –> 01:32:58.520
there is a better part and a worse, and that he is his own master

1486
01:32:58.520 –> 01:33:02.300
when the part which is better by nature has the worse under its control.

1487
01:33:03.125 –> 01:33:06.565
It is certainly a term of praise, whereas it is considered a disgrace when through

1488
01:33:06.565 –> 01:33:10.185
bad readers or bad company, the better part is overwhelmed by the worst,

1489
01:33:10.730 –> 01:33:14.410
like a small force outnumbered by a multitude. A man in that

1490
01:33:14.410 –> 01:33:17.070
condition is called a slave to himself and intemperate.

1491
01:33:18.625 –> 01:33:22.305
Probably that is what is meant. Then now

1492
01:33:22.305 –> 01:33:25.825
look at our newly found state and you will find one of these 2 conditions

1493
01:33:25.825 –> 01:33:29.580
realized there. You will agree that it deserves to be called master of

1494
01:33:29.580 –> 01:33:33.040
itself. If temperance and self mastery exist

1495
01:33:33.420 –> 01:33:36.665
where the better part Rules the Worst.

1496
01:33:43.370 –> 01:33:46.670
Temperance, wisdom, courage,

1497
01:33:47.210 –> 01:33:50.350
and justice. These are the 4 things that,

1498
01:33:52.344 –> 01:33:56.045
Socrates would assert are necessary Tom, for

1499
01:33:58.780 –> 01:34:02.560
necessary for a guardian, for a leader to be

1500
01:34:02.780 –> 01:34:06.300
a good one. Not even great. Just good. Just showing

1501
01:34:06.300 –> 01:34:09.655
up. These are the table stakes, as they say in

1502
01:34:09.655 –> 01:34:13.335
poker, the hardest one

1503
01:34:13.335 –> 01:34:16.960
out of all 4 of those. If we were to rank

1504
01:34:16.960 –> 01:34:20.800
order them, I would say the hardest one probably to obtain because

1505
01:34:20.800 –> 01:34:23.699
it takes the longest to attain is wisdom.

1506
01:34:25.725 –> 01:34:28.785
Now I shave off most of my gray hairs.

1507
01:34:30.445 –> 01:34:34.160
Tom allows them to be proudly displayed. You can

1508
01:34:34.160 –> 01:34:36.420
see them on the video, if you weren’t watching the video,

1509
01:34:39.040 –> 01:34:42.685
And there is this idea of a gray Pilgrim,

1510
01:34:43.145 –> 01:34:46.745
from Lord of the rings or a gray traveler that, I

1511
01:34:46.745 –> 01:34:49.725
believe Longfellow or might’ve been Thoreau talked about,

1512
01:34:50.510 –> 01:34:54.210
that occurred or that shows up an individual, a nomad,

1513
01:34:54.989 –> 01:34:58.829
a person who is a prophet, somewhat who shows up at

1514
01:34:58.829 –> 01:35:01.995
the and of, end of,

1515
01:35:02.715 –> 01:35:06.555
the end of a historical. And this

1516
01:35:06.555 –> 01:35:08.950
individual much like Gandalf and Lord of the rings,

1517
01:35:12.150 –> 01:35:15.830
checks the worst excesses of the past cycle in

1518
01:35:15.830 –> 01:35:19.545
order to make a space for the best things of the

1519
01:35:19.545 –> 01:35:21.405
next cycle to be.

1520
01:35:24.905 –> 01:35:28.640
That’s The ability to do that check comes

1521
01:35:28.640 –> 01:35:32.340
from the quality of wisdom. I think Socrates would agree with that.

1522
01:35:36.965 –> 01:35:40.805
As we exit the 4th turning from William Strauss and

1523
01:35:40.805 –> 01:35:43.285
Neil Howe, have you ever read that book? That’s where I’m getting this language from,

1524
01:35:43.285 –> 01:35:46.560
this idea from. I think we’re exiting the 4th turning. I think we’re at the

1525
01:35:46.560 –> 01:35:50.000
end of the 20 years of chaos that comes that came after the unraveling that

1526
01:35:50.000 –> 01:35:53.815
began in the mid 19 eighties and continued through the end of the 1990s. When

1527
01:35:53.815 –> 01:35:57.655
I graduated high school. I’ve lived most of my adult

1528
01:35:57.655 –> 01:36:01.080
life in chaos in one form or another cultural, social,

1529
01:36:01.080 –> 01:36:03.260
economic, moral, political.

1530
01:36:05.480 –> 01:36:08.554
And I don’t know what people like me and in my generation are going to

1531
01:36:08.554 –> 01:36:12.235
do when there is a high, when there is a spring after

1532
01:36:12.235 –> 01:36:14.815
we exit the cyclical historical winter.

1533
01:36:16.120 –> 01:36:18.620
But we can’t all be cranky about it.

1534
01:36:19.960 –> 01:36:22.140
Nothing worse than a cranky old man in spring.

1535
01:36:23.735 –> 01:36:26.075
And I’ve lived in the Northeast. I know what I’m talking about.

1536
01:36:28.535 –> 01:36:32.235
Yeah. We got 14 inches of snow yesterday, by the way. So, yeah.

1537
01:36:32.700 –> 01:36:36.000
Spring’s gonna be fun. Anyway, great. It’s gonna be a good time.

1538
01:36:39.020 –> 01:36:42.080
What is the leadership pathway using wisdom?

1539
01:36:43.085 –> 01:36:46.525
Because I had something that has been lamented, a lack of appreciation for it is

1540
01:36:46.525 –> 01:36:50.284
something that has been lamented, but I think wisdom’s about to have its

1541
01:36:50.284 –> 01:36:50.784
day.

1542
01:36:58.110 –> 01:37:01.395
I I I feel like I feel like this question is probably the hardest one

1543
01:37:01.395 –> 01:37:04.915
of the whole podcast, honestly. Because, like, when you think

1544
01:37:04.915 –> 01:37:08.615
about I I think the bigger problem, honestly,

1545
01:37:09.199 –> 01:37:13.040
Is recognition of wisdom. Right? Like, I think Yeah. Because I think I think

1546
01:37:13.040 –> 01:37:15.540
there’s some I think there’s some lost in translation

1547
01:37:16.675 –> 01:37:20.435
Things that happen from generation to generation to generation, and I think that

1548
01:37:20.435 –> 01:37:23.495
there that we are in one of the biggest gaps

1549
01:37:24.290 –> 01:37:27.989
In history. And what I mean by that is like, if you think of the

1550
01:37:28.530 –> 01:37:32.210
Great Depression era generation and then the World War II

1551
01:37:32.210 –> 01:37:35.895
era and then the Libby boomer, like There was this, there was

1552
01:37:35.955 –> 01:37:39.715
this, like, transfer of wisdom and and and confidence that

1553
01:37:39.715 –> 01:37:43.369
kinda went with them. Mhmm. Right until about

1554
01:37:43.369 –> 01:37:47.130
our generation, so, like, the generation before us, they’re like, okay,

1555
01:37:47.130 –> 01:37:50.829
we’re pretty confident you guys got this. We’re not a 100%

1556
01:37:50.969 –> 01:37:54.635
sure, but We think we can survive whatever you guys end up

1557
01:37:54.635 –> 01:37:58.475
doing. Our generation right now is looking at the 20 somethings going, we have

1558
01:37:58.475 –> 01:38:02.280
no idea if we’re gonna survive them. And part of the reason

1559
01:38:02.500 –> 01:38:06.100
part of the reason we don’t think part of the

1560
01:38:06.100 –> 01:38:09.800
reason we don’t know if we’re gonna survive them is because we’re not convinced

1561
01:38:10.375 –> 01:38:14.215
in our ability to transfer our confidence of wisdom and

1562
01:38:14.215 –> 01:38:17.974
integrity to them. I think we don’t even think we have

1563
01:38:17.974 –> 01:38:21.340
any wisdom to transfer, which is even worse.

1564
01:38:22.760 –> 01:38:26.280
Maybe, maybe not. Maybe as a collective, but I, if I am speaking

1565
01:38:26.280 –> 01:38:30.085
strictly from myself in our family unit, I look at what

1566
01:38:30.385 –> 01:38:33.905
my elder like, the my my mentor and

1567
01:38:33.905 –> 01:38:37.720
and and and The the person that I would have

1568
01:38:37.720 –> 01:38:41.400
put the world on passed away 2 years ago. Mhmm.

1569
01:38:41.400 –> 01:38:45.025
The informa he passed away Feeling confident

1570
01:38:45.025 –> 01:38:48.465
that what he taught me is going to be taught to the next

1571
01:38:48.465 –> 01:38:52.305
generation. Right? Like, he died feeling confident that

1572
01:38:52.305 –> 01:38:56.040
I was gonna do what I was Supposed to do. I am now in turn

1573
01:38:56.040 –> 01:38:59.660
trying to push that that knowledge

1574
01:39:04.285 –> 01:39:07.745
I don’t know, I’m banging my head against the wall trying to figure out

1575
01:39:08.125 –> 01:39:11.840
how to get them to see That. So

1576
01:39:11.840 –> 01:39:15.600
so to to your point, like, I think part of it is they don’t view

1577
01:39:15.600 –> 01:39:19.200
me the same way they viewed him. Mhmm. So so even

1578
01:39:19.200 –> 01:39:23.025
though he felt He did a good job teaching me to

1579
01:39:23.025 –> 01:39:26.565
the point that I now have the ability to teach the next generation.

1580
01:39:27.185 –> 01:39:30.681
They don’t know if I have the capability. So to your point, It’s not that

1581
01:39:30.681 –> 01:39:34.513
we don’t have the wisdom, it’s just that we they don’t have the

1582
01:39:34.513 –> 01:39:38.345
confidence in us that we’re gonna be able to transfer that wisdom to them.

1583
01:39:38.665 –> 01:39:42.425
So it’s it’s it’s a it’s a bizarre psychological twist, I know,

1584
01:39:42.425 –> 01:39:45.145
but I don’t think the I I think the onus is

1585
01:39:46.730 –> 01:39:50.490
I think the onus is on us not because we don’t have the

1586
01:39:50.490 –> 01:39:53.290
wisdom. I just don’t think we know how to transfer it. I don’t know if

1587
01:39:53.290 –> 01:39:56.445
we know how to present it. I don’t know if we know. We’re not giving

1588
01:39:56.505 –> 01:40:00.264
them reason or cause to believe in our wisdom and

1589
01:40:00.264 –> 01:40:03.945
or our ability to give it to them and to and to push it down

1590
01:40:03.945 –> 01:40:07.680
and and give That’s where I think the disconnect is, and I think

1591
01:40:07.680 –> 01:40:11.360
it’s the biggest gap we’ve seen ever in in that in that

1592
01:40:12.400 –> 01:40:13.940
So part of it is that,

1593
01:40:16.485 –> 01:40:19.445
I was born in 1979, so I’m on the tail end of the Gen X

1594
01:40:19.445 –> 01:40:22.905
generation. I’m in that weird middle ground between Gen X and millennials.

1595
01:40:23.260 –> 01:40:26.300
While we were in the 74, so I’m I feel the same way, by the

1596
01:40:26.300 –> 01:40:28.940
way. I so I think you and I I think you and I are closer

1597
01:40:28.940 –> 01:40:32.539
to thinking and and whatever than than I am to other Gen

1598
01:40:32.539 –> 01:40:35.885
Xers. Yeah. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Libby be, well, yeah. Cause the gen

1599
01:40:35.885 –> 01:40:39.725
X generation, I mean, 64 to

1600
01:40:39.725 –> 01:40:43.460
64 to 80. Right, in general, in demographics is, I mean, that’s

1601
01:40:43.460 –> 01:40:47.060
that’s but the number of people inside of that generation so

1602
01:40:47.060 –> 01:40:50.815
so part of this is also scale. That’s actually the one of the smallest

1603
01:40:50.815 –> 01:40:53.635
generations in American history. There were only, I think,

1604
01:40:54.175 –> 01:40:57.855
12,000,000 people in that generation or 20,000,000 people in that generation

1605
01:40:57.855 –> 01:41:01.639
was how lit it was Small. It was it was tiny. Right? In

1606
01:41:01.639 –> 01:41:05.019
comparison to, what is it, 60, 70,000,000

1607
01:41:05.239 –> 01:41:09.025
baby boomers, who are all our parents, And then our young

1608
01:41:09.265 –> 01:41:13.025
if if if we had came from large families, which I did, our younger

1609
01:41:13.025 –> 01:41:16.840
brothers and sisters were millennials, but

1610
01:41:16.840 –> 01:41:20.520
in some cases, Gen z, but mostly millennials. And the

1611
01:41:20.520 –> 01:41:24.120
millennial generation runs from 84 to 97, and they were

1612
01:41:24.280 –> 01:41:27.625
there’s 90,000,000 of them. 90,000,000.

1613
01:41:28.885 –> 01:41:32.645
So part of it is if your generation is

1614
01:41:32.645 –> 01:41:35.570
is literally four x Less

1615
01:41:36.590 –> 01:41:39.950
than the generate than either 3 x less and 4 x less than either generation

1616
01:41:39.950 –> 01:41:41.090
on either side of you,

1617
01:41:43.625 –> 01:41:47.405
Your best move is just to kinda hang out

1618
01:41:48.185 –> 01:41:51.645
because what are you gonna do? But that’s not in our nature.

1619
01:41:51.970 –> 01:41:55.410
We we are I think about this for a second. The generation that you’re talking

1620
01:41:55.410 –> 01:41:59.090
about is is one of the smallest is is probably the

1621
01:41:59.090 –> 01:42:02.745
most innovative, the most competitive, The like,

1622
01:42:02.965 –> 01:42:06.805
we we check all the boxes that neither of the other 2 aside of us

1623
01:42:06.805 –> 01:42:10.440
wanna check. Right. Like, honestly, if

1624
01:42:10.440 –> 01:42:14.120
you think about No. You’re correct. And so So the the Gen

1625
01:42:14.120 –> 01:42:17.820
z’s of the world, everyone gets a trophy. There’s no competitiveness there.

1626
01:42:17.935 –> 01:42:21.695
There’s no win and lose or die. Like, there’s like a can we just like,

1627
01:42:21.695 –> 01:42:25.470
everyone’s like a happy and it’s like so we anyway, I don’t know.

1628
01:42:25.550 –> 01:42:28.590
We are not the generation that’s gonna just stand idly by and just watch what

1629
01:42:28.590 –> 01:42:32.190
happens. I could tell you that. No. No. But this is what but this is

1630
01:42:32.190 –> 01:42:35.775
why I say it’s hard to be. So so our generation came

1631
01:42:35.775 –> 01:42:39.455
up, and this is why I mentioned I spent 20 years of my the

1632
01:42:39.455 –> 01:42:43.040
first 20 years of my adult life, from 20 to 40,

1633
01:42:43.500 –> 01:42:45.679
and I’m in my you know, I’m 44 now,

1634
01:42:47.179 –> 01:42:50.974
in chaos. Like, there is September 11th literally happened the

1635
01:42:50.974 –> 01:42:54.755
year I turned 21. Yeah. Like, 3 weeks afterward

1636
01:42:54.815 –> 01:42:58.255
was my birthday. Like, yeah, happy birthday. Here we

1637
01:42:58.255 –> 01:43:00.210
go. Off to the races now.

1638
01:43:01.870 –> 01:43:05.710
Uh-huh. So from that historical moment,

1639
01:43:05.710 –> 01:43:09.175
from that historical perspective, The thing that

1640
01:43:09.315 –> 01:43:13.074
binds all of us together is that

1641
01:43:13.074 –> 01:43:15.494
sense of survival through chaos.

1642
01:43:17.610 –> 01:43:21.370
But what we tend to do as a result of that and,

1643
01:43:21.370 –> 01:43:24.330
again, I’m getting a lot of these ideas from, the book, The 4th Turning. I

1644
01:43:24.330 –> 01:43:28.144
would strongly recommend you read that. William Strauss and Neil Howe. Great book.

1645
01:43:28.525 –> 01:43:31.644
You can pick it up on audiobook. We’re gonna be covering that book actually on

1646
01:43:31.644 –> 01:43:35.310
the podcast in February, I believe either February or late

1647
01:43:35.310 –> 01:43:39.150
January with, with our other, guest host, Brian Bagley. So

1648
01:43:39.150 –> 01:43:41.390
you should pick up you should listen to that episode. It’s gonna be a great

1649
01:43:41.390 –> 01:43:44.054
a great bonus So we’re actually gonna break apart this book and get into some

1650
01:43:44.054 –> 01:43:47.675
of these ideas, because they have influenced how I think about this now,

1651
01:43:48.614 –> 01:43:51.355
and how I think about the books and what we’re doing on the podcast too.

1652
01:43:52.620 –> 01:43:55.840
So, we’ve been defined by chaos and this is why I said,

1653
01:43:56.380 –> 01:44:00.000
people who’ve been divided by chaos tend to be survivalists. Well, survivalists,

1654
01:44:01.815 –> 01:44:05.655
When everything switches over and everybody keeps clapping and getting it, those guys are

1655
01:44:05.655 –> 01:44:08.475
out the back smoking a cigarette, grumbling about the kids

1656
01:44:10.055 –> 01:44:13.880
and and the wisdom that we do have your

1657
01:44:13.880 –> 01:44:17.239
correct. Your, your sense of your psychological sense is correct. Your, your,

1658
01:44:17.239 –> 01:44:21.085
your, your instincts are correct. Our wisdom is

1659
01:44:21.085 –> 01:44:24.685
not valued and that’s something that Strauss and Howe talk

1660
01:44:24.685 –> 01:44:28.305
about where like the nomad generation, which is what they call Gen Xers,

1661
01:44:28.420 –> 01:44:32.260
the nomad generation, and this is not unusual throughout cycles

1662
01:44:32.260 –> 01:44:35.699
in American history. There’s been about 4 cycles of nomads throughout American

1663
01:44:35.699 –> 01:44:39.185
history And, usually, when they

1664
01:44:39.185 –> 01:44:42.865
are ill in middle age and elderly and the next generation is

1665
01:44:42.865 –> 01:44:46.150
coming into a high and then into an awakening, Their

1666
01:44:46.690 –> 01:44:50.210
wisdom is basically chucked out the

1667
01:44:50.210 –> 01:44:53.995
door. And I don’t see why it would be

1668
01:44:53.995 –> 01:44:57.835
any different for us, which is why I think

1669
01:44:57.835 –> 01:45:01.650
it is more incumbent upon us as a generation and as individuals

1670
01:45:01.885 –> 01:45:05.630
Tom your point who actually press the case for

1671
01:45:05.630 –> 01:45:09.295
wisdom, to actually press the case for to Plato

1672
01:45:09.415 –> 01:45:13.095
to to Socrates’s point, temperance, to actually press the

1673
01:45:13.095 –> 01:45:16.475
case for, you talked about conscious capitalism,

1674
01:45:17.175 –> 01:45:20.910
ethics and virtue to press this case as strongly as we possibly can

1675
01:45:20.910 –> 01:45:24.690
because my concern

1676
01:45:25.390 –> 01:45:27.730
is that too many of us

1677
01:45:31.885 –> 01:45:35.725
will sort of throw up our hands and let it go because

1678
01:45:35.725 –> 01:45:39.170
you just run out of energy at a certain point. Like, you know, along in

1679
01:45:39.170 –> 01:45:41.909
a timeline, you’re just like, I I just I just wanna be done.

1680
01:45:42.690 –> 01:45:46.449
But that’s not helpful for people to your point who need that

1681
01:45:46.449 –> 01:45:49.795
wisdom transfer. And by the way, the big boomers aren’t doing a good job of

1682
01:45:49.795 –> 01:45:53.475
wisdom transfer anyway because we’ve got an

1683
01:45:53.475 –> 01:45:57.190
entire generation of people who literally had to have power. I I mean,

1684
01:45:57.190 –> 01:45:58.889
we have an 80 year old Joe Biden

1685
01:46:00.969 –> 01:46:04.525
literature had to have power yanked away from them, from,

1686
01:46:04.525 –> 01:46:08.285
from their dying hands. This is, this is

1687
01:46:08.285 –> 01:46:11.425
not good. This is not good. And so

1688
01:46:13.230 –> 01:46:16.590
The Path Through Leadership Through Wisdom, I

1689
01:46:16.590 –> 01:46:17.090
think,

1690
01:46:22.575 –> 01:46:25.695
Well, I think it’s gonna be 20 years before we figure out before we, before

1691
01:46:25.695 –> 01:46:29.500
the, before the, before the, before

1692
01:46:29.500 –> 01:46:32.980
all of the all the bets are in, before everything is is but I but

1693
01:46:32.980 –> 01:46:35.820
I think we better be working for that 20 years. We better be laying the

1694
01:46:35.820 –> 01:46:39.445
foundation. We better be saying the things. You know, we better be offering

1695
01:46:39.445 –> 01:46:43.225
the solutions. We better be leading on them with the wisdom we do have.

1696
01:46:46.250 –> 01:46:50.010
I think I think it kinda goes back Tom, I mean,

1697
01:46:50.010 –> 01:46:53.850
it kinda goes back to something you said earlier too about, like, we’ve gone

1698
01:46:53.850 –> 01:46:57.415
away from, Like from from building character

1699
01:46:57.555 –> 01:47:01.075
and build like certain certain things that drove people to

1700
01:47:01.075 –> 01:47:04.720
do, like, We don’t hear anybody talking about

1701
01:47:04.720 –> 01:47:08.560
integrity anymore. We don’t hear anybody talking about character, which by

1702
01:47:08.560 –> 01:47:12.364
the way, just so y’all know, in my house, Topic of conversation at least

1703
01:47:12.364 –> 01:47:16.125
once a month. Do you have integrity and what you like, that’s a big thing

1704
01:47:16.125 –> 01:47:19.480
for us. Like, it’s a very big deal for us. What is the measure of

1705
01:47:19.480 –> 01:47:22.520
your character? How do you know you’re being a good person or bad, like, we

1706
01:47:22.520 –> 01:47:26.060
talk about that all the time. Yeah. I don’t think families have those conversations

1707
01:47:26.200 –> 01:47:29.615
anymore. Yep. I I just I just think that they they make

1708
01:47:29.615 –> 01:47:33.295
assumptions based on your actions instead of having

1709
01:47:33.295 –> 01:47:37.130
you talk Through why you did a certain thing, why you acted a certain way,

1710
01:47:37.130 –> 01:47:40.969
how you how you felt that action or that that inaction is going to

1711
01:47:40.969 –> 01:47:44.495
impact the rest of your family. Like, And by the way,

1712
01:47:44.635 –> 01:47:48.395
again, I I I think it goes back to a cultural thing. Like, we we

1713
01:47:48.395 –> 01:47:52.210
we live, breathe, eat, sleep, drink our culture. Sure. Like, our culture’s

1714
01:47:52.210 –> 01:47:55.570
important to us, so we don’t care what the US government is doing when it

1715
01:47:55.570 –> 01:47:59.170
comes to our internal workings of our family. Like, we don’t care what the

1716
01:47:59.170 –> 01:48:03.014
worldview is if, Like, when it comes to the but I think because of the

1717
01:48:03.014 –> 01:48:06.795
inner internal workings of our family, it impacts us all

1718
01:48:07.450 –> 01:48:11.290
Outside of when we’re outside of our family. Like, and that I know.

1719
01:48:11.290 –> 01:48:14.890
I I lay my head at night every day knowing that when my kids are

1720
01:48:14.890 –> 01:48:18.505
outside doing their thing, That they’re good people, like I know they

1721
01:48:18.505 –> 01:48:22.264
are, because we talk, like those are the kind of things we talk about. What,

1722
01:48:22.264 –> 01:48:25.885
you know, my, I just, something so stupid, simple,

1723
01:48:26.390 –> 01:48:30.070
People are gonna think this is the most, the dumbest thing to dwell on, but

1724
01:48:30.070 –> 01:48:33.910
I’m telling you it matters. When my son, who still lives at home, my youngest

1725
01:48:33.910 –> 01:48:37.595
son, when he calls out sick at work And I see him in the kitchen,

1726
01:48:37.815 –> 01:48:41.095
I go, why aren’t you at work? I didn’t feel good. What do you mean

1727
01:48:41.095 –> 01:48:43.975
you didn’t feel good? Did you feel good not not good enough to go to

1728
01:48:43.975 –> 01:48:47.610
work? Like, how what do you mean? You’re like, well, I woke up with a

1729
01:48:47.610 –> 01:48:51.210
with a runny nose, stuffy fever, a head cough, blah blah blah. I didn’t I

1730
01:48:51.210 –> 01:48:53.690
thought going to book, I didn’t wanna get anybody else sick. I don’t know if

1731
01:48:53.690 –> 01:48:56.935
it’s COVID or not. Great. I understand. Go back to bed and have a good

1732
01:48:56.935 –> 01:48:59.735
day. Like, I get that. But if he’s like, oh, I just didn’t feel like

1733
01:48:59.735 –> 01:49:02.775
it, that is not a reason to call in sick, my friend. That is not

1734
01:49:02.775 –> 01:49:06.610
an integrity and Like, that is not an integral part of society.

1735
01:49:06.610 –> 01:49:10.210
That’s not what you do. There are other people that work where you work that

1736
01:49:10.210 –> 01:49:12.770
rely on you to do a certain amount of work and do it a certain

1737
01:49:12.770 –> 01:49:15.974
job. But if you don’t show up, they have to now do more book, then

1738
01:49:15.974 –> 01:49:19.034
that’s not right. Like, that’s, that’s, so

1739
01:49:19.335 –> 01:49:23.040
again, Like, so now I, like, I go back

1740
01:49:23.040 –> 01:49:26.880
to the, like, our family unit is

1741
01:49:26.880 –> 01:49:30.265
more important to me than the global. Right? Like, that’s that goes back to that.

1742
01:49:30.425 –> 01:49:33.465
And I think that there’s not enough of that kind of stuff that happens on

1743
01:49:33.465 –> 01:49:37.005
a regular basis. That that could potentially

1744
01:49:37.145 –> 01:49:40.599
influence what you’re talking about Tenfold versus us

1745
01:49:40.599 –> 01:49:44.440
trying us, you and I, trying to influence the next generation of workers

1746
01:49:44.440 –> 01:49:48.225
that we’ve barely known. Right? Like, I think that there’s Yeah. There’s a lot

1747
01:49:48.225 –> 01:49:52.025
of that that that goes anyway. I I think there are those those

1748
01:49:52.105 –> 01:49:55.065
I think those conversations are happening. I think you should take heart. I think those

1749
01:49:55.065 –> 01:49:58.740
conversations are happening, but I think they are happening in families Tom your

1750
01:49:58.740 –> 01:50:02.440
point that are away from the dominant cultural

1751
01:50:02.580 –> 01:50:06.395
set cultural and media centers. And by a way, I you can mean

1752
01:50:06.395 –> 01:50:10.075
physically away, you can mean psychologically away. Sure. You can

1753
01:50:10.075 –> 01:50:13.810
mean technologically away, you know, whatever.

1754
01:50:13.810 –> 01:50:17.250
Right? So, you know, I think about it I mean, I

1755
01:50:17.250 –> 01:50:20.550
know I know Jewish communities in the United States where

1756
01:50:20.965 –> 01:50:24.345
They have Sabbath I mean, they they celebrate Sabbath religiously,

1757
01:50:24.805 –> 01:50:28.325
and that is a time for families to get together and talk

1758
01:50:28.325 –> 01:50:31.850
about character and integrity and how this relates to da da da da.

1759
01:50:31.850 –> 01:50:35.690
Right? I know, I

1760
01:50:35.690 –> 01:50:39.465
know homeschooling families who, particularly in the last 2 or

1761
01:50:39.465 –> 01:50:42.985
3 years who pull their kids out of out of school people who pull their

1762
01:50:42.985 –> 01:50:45.145
kids out of school because of COVID. I matter of fact, I think of a

1763
01:50:45.145 –> 01:50:48.840
guy right up the street. Not particularly religious, just pull his kids out of out

1764
01:50:48.840 –> 01:50:52.460
of school because of COVID, and him and his wife are now building

1765
01:50:53.614 –> 01:50:57.454
community in their family around these ideas of Tom

1766
01:50:57.454 –> 01:51:01.054
your point, integrity and character and wisdom and temperament, and they’re

1767
01:51:01.054 –> 01:51:04.280
having those conversations in 1 on 1 conversations,

1768
01:51:05.060 –> 01:51:08.900
and in 1 on 1 interactions over Sunday dinners, over Saturday dinners, over

1769
01:51:08.900 –> 01:51:12.615
weeknights dinners. So, you know, these things are happening in subcultures.

1770
01:51:12.915 –> 01:51:14.615
I think of the larger

1771
01:51:16.755 –> 01:51:20.290
society in the United States, but I don’t think

1772
01:51:20.650 –> 01:51:24.490
to your point, I don’t think the revolution’s being televised. The revolution isn’t

1773
01:51:24.490 –> 01:51:28.125
even showing up on TikTok. More importantly, it’s like

1774
01:51:28.365 –> 01:51:31.565
again, so why it’s important to me? I I I’m gonna I’m gonna put this

1775
01:51:31.565 –> 01:51:35.090
right into business for you, into a business sense. I had a client recently,

1776
01:51:35.470 –> 01:51:39.150
a client recently, talking about his sales manager who

1777
01:51:39.390 –> 01:51:43.014
so I I’m doing some sales and marketing, consulting and coaching for

1778
01:51:43.014 –> 01:51:45.574
that for that comp for this company. I’m talking to the owner of the company.

1779
01:51:45.574 –> 01:51:48.715
It’s about 5 or 6, $8,000,000 a year, somewhere around there,

1780
01:51:49.340 –> 01:51:53.019
And he has a sales manager. Now during the during

1781
01:51:53.019 –> 01:51:56.780
the weekend, a bunch of calls came in and on that Monday,

1782
01:51:56.780 –> 01:52:00.365
he asked the sales manager why he didn’t, Why why didn’t you call the

1783
01:52:00.365 –> 01:52:02.925
customers back? And he said, well, because it was the weekend. I was away with

1784
01:52:02.925 –> 01:52:06.305
my family. He goes, that doesn’t fly with us. You’re a salaried

1785
01:52:06.365 –> 01:52:10.190
employee. Your responsibility is to take care of customers, Take care of blah blah blah

1786
01:52:10.190 –> 01:52:14.030
blah blah, whatever. And he said, the sales manager said, well, if

1787
01:52:14.030 –> 01:52:17.715
I do that and I’m on my time with my family, I’m

1788
01:52:17.715 –> 01:52:21.235
gonna take a couple of hours off during the week and either leave early or

1789
01:52:21.235 –> 01:52:24.375
come in late so that I can make up that time with my family. And

1790
01:52:24.840 –> 01:52:28.300
The boss, the owner of the company, was a little offended by this.

1791
01:52:29.400 –> 01:52:33.215
Now, here’s the catch. So I called him on the carpet for it,

1792
01:52:33.215 –> 01:52:36.594
And I said, why are you offended by this? Why isn’t this bothering you?

1793
01:52:36.815 –> 01:52:39.875
You project out

1794
01:52:40.310 –> 01:52:44.010
Family’s important. You’re you’re you’re you’re part of our family now.

1795
01:52:44.070 –> 01:52:47.645
You’re treated like family. We want you Tom, like So

1796
01:52:47.645 –> 01:52:50.625
he’s using your company culture

1797
01:52:52.045 –> 01:52:55.885
to ask you or to tell you that that’s what his expectation is, and you’re

1798
01:52:55.885 –> 01:52:59.570
crapping on it. Your country that there’s

1799
01:52:59.570 –> 01:53:03.350
0 integrity in that. You’re you’re crapping on your own statements.

1800
01:53:03.650 –> 01:53:07.395
And, you know, it it to his to his credit, he went, Oh,

1801
01:53:07.395 –> 01:53:11.155
damn. I it did that did not click to me because I was thinking

1802
01:53:11.155 –> 01:53:14.994
about, like, service to the customer and going beyond, like,

1803
01:53:14.994 –> 01:53:18.760
our Like, are you seeing our customers,

1804
01:53:18.900 –> 01:53:22.739
like, the whole slew of us as one family, so they

1805
01:53:22.739 –> 01:53:26.355
deserve your time and attention As if and he goes, didn’t

1806
01:53:26.355 –> 01:53:30.035
even click to me. So but again, like, to your point about leadership, like,

1807
01:53:30.035 –> 01:53:32.450
this is a guy who leads a company of, I don’t know. It was, like,

1808
01:53:32.450 –> 01:53:36.050
25 employees, and he didn’t even see it. He

1809
01:53:36.050 –> 01:53:39.330
didn’t see it. He didn’t see the problem with it. So to your point about

1810
01:53:39.330 –> 01:53:43.085
wisdom, How can you invoke wisdom if he didn’t if he’s not

1811
01:53:43.085 –> 01:53:46.685
seeing it himself? Right? Like Right. So you need outside

1812
01:53:46.685 –> 01:53:50.510
counsel. You need people you need to you need people to keep you To keep

1813
01:53:50.510 –> 01:53:54.190
you honest, to call you on the carpet, to show you, like, you need because

1814
01:53:54.190 –> 01:53:57.469
that’s what the family unit is doing with each other. Right? They’re Right. They’re talking

1815
01:53:57.469 –> 01:54:00.651
to each other about this stuff. Companies don’t have that. Company leaders,

1816
01:54:01.275 –> 01:54:04.955
who do you have to do that with? You don’t

1817
01:54:04.955 –> 01:54:08.630
have feel like that. Who who backchecks who book who back

1818
01:54:08.630 –> 01:54:11.590
checks you. Writers? Who who is going to who’s going to do that? Who’s gonna

1819
01:54:11.590 –> 01:54:15.210
call you the carpet. Right? Writers. You need a trusted person.

1820
01:54:15.715 –> 01:54:19.434
You need your your, you know, Steve Jobs needs his Wozniak. You know, like,

1821
01:54:19.434 –> 01:54:23.235
that’s Yeah. You need you need somebody. So if you’re trying to run a company

1822
01:54:23.235 –> 01:54:26.822
by yourself, Then you need a you need a business coach. You need some Sorrells

1823
01:54:26.850 –> 01:54:30.610
outside person you can bounce ideas. I don’t care what you pay that

1824
01:54:30.610 –> 01:54:34.235
person. If you don’t think you need them, you are wrong. Yep.

1825
01:54:34.235 –> 01:54:37.835
I’d agree with that. I would absolutely agree with that. I would absolutely agree with

1826
01:54:37.835 –> 01:54:40.975
that. I would I would hold to that. Well, Tom,

1827
01:54:41.880 –> 01:54:45.000
I think we’re about done here. I had another beat in here, but you know

1828
01:54:45.000 –> 01:54:48.760
what? We went long in the 2nd segment and, we shortened up a little bit

1829
01:54:48.760 –> 01:54:52.235
on this third one. Plus, I gotta be,

1830
01:54:53.335 –> 01:54:57.094
cognizant of your time. Plus, the last piece, we were just

1831
01:54:57.094 –> 01:55:00.860
gonna talk about politics. We’ve got all year to talk about that.

1832
01:55:01.320 –> 01:55:04.140
Yes. Yes. We do. No need to rush on that.

1833
01:55:06.520 –> 01:55:07.820
Oh my. Oh my.

1834
01:55:10.745 –> 01:55:13.405
How could leaders stay on the path by reading

1835
01:55:14.185 –> 01:55:17.670
Plato’s? How how can we How can we use this

1836
01:55:17.670 –> 01:55:21.290
book, the Republic of Plato? How can we use the words of Socrates,

1837
01:55:22.630 –> 01:55:26.324
to think more critically, to develop more character, to think about

1838
01:55:26.324 –> 01:55:29.844
our virtues as leaders. What can we take from this

1839
01:55:29.844 –> 01:55:33.500
book today? Well, I think we could take a

1840
01:55:33.500 –> 01:55:37.100
lot from it, honestly, but but the one thing that I would that I’d like

1841
01:55:37.100 –> 01:55:40.780
to probably leave you with is this. I go back to our 1st

1842
01:55:40.780 –> 01:55:44.525
segment when I was talking about While when he was trying to get

1843
01:55:44.525 –> 01:55:48.364
people to define justice. Right? And every time he got a

1844
01:55:48.364 –> 01:55:51.585
definition of justice, he poked a hole in it. Yep.

1845
01:55:52.230 –> 01:55:55.370
So for leadership my I go back to that and say,

1846
01:55:55.670 –> 01:55:59.385
anytime you are in a problem solving scenario And

1847
01:55:59.385 –> 01:56:03.225
somebody gives you a solution to that problem, try your damndest to poke

1848
01:56:03.225 –> 01:56:06.905
all the holes in it you can to get to the point where you don’t

1849
01:56:06.905 –> 01:56:10.679
have any holes left to plug. You’ll know the right answer. Right? So you can

1850
01:56:10.679 –> 01:56:14.440
you can view Socrates’s methods as a as a

1851
01:56:14.440 –> 01:56:17.480
way of kind of vetting out your own way of thinking when it comes to

1852
01:56:17.480 –> 01:56:20.125
your problem solving in your company. And again, it doesn’t matter what you’re trying to

1853
01:56:20.125 –> 01:56:23.745
solve, whether it’s a sales and marketing problem, a leadership problem, or

1854
01:56:23.805 –> 01:56:27.650
operations problem. It Just I would say the

1855
01:56:27.650 –> 01:56:31.490
the the philosophical points that he makes in there are very

1856
01:56:31.490 –> 01:56:34.630
valid even in today’s world, just constantly trying to

1857
01:56:35.245 –> 01:56:38.285
To to poke those holes. I think that that Tom me is how I I

1858
01:56:38.285 –> 01:56:42.045
would like I’d I’d leave this. I would add to that

1859
01:56:42.045 –> 01:56:45.660
only by poking those holes in the problem.

1860
01:56:47.000 –> 01:56:50.440
We’re not giving the problem power. We’re actually Oh, no.

1861
01:56:50.520 –> 01:56:54.344
Taking power away from the problem, and we

1862
01:56:54.344 –> 01:56:58.025
are giving power to the solution. Yep. So I

1863
01:56:58.025 –> 01:57:01.790
think of When the Navy Sorrells are kind of notorious

1864
01:57:01.850 –> 01:57:05.469
for this, after they have a mission that they go on

1865
01:57:05.929 –> 01:57:08.695
and, they come back and they break that mission down.

1866
01:57:09.815 –> 01:57:13.655
And from what I’ve heard, and anyone who is either knows

1867
01:57:13.655 –> 01:57:17.494
more about this than I do or is a Navy SEAL themselves can correct

1868
01:57:17.494 –> 01:57:21.160
me on this. I welcome feedback and checking on this, but what I’ve

1869
01:57:21.160 –> 01:57:24.920
heard is that no seal who was on the

1870
01:57:24.920 –> 01:57:28.704
mission, Whether it went well or badly doesn’t

1871
01:57:28.704 –> 01:57:32.385
matter. No seal who is on the mission gets to come to the

1872
01:57:32.385 –> 01:57:34.965
breakdown of the mission with more problems.

1873
01:57:36.520 –> 01:57:40.119
You could only come with solutions. What are we going to do

1874
01:57:40.119 –> 01:57:43.579
next? How are we going to fix this? What do you propose?

1875
01:57:44.355 –> 01:57:48.114
What is an idea? Look, sometimes this idea

1876
01:57:48.114 –> 01:57:51.875
will get pushed back of coming to your boss, not with

1877
01:57:51.875 –> 01:57:55.450
complaints, But with solutions, I’ve seen this get pushed back on LinkedIn before

1878
01:57:55.750 –> 01:57:58.870
and, and, and the pushback typically comes in the form of, well, people don’t come

1879
01:57:58.870 –> 01:58:02.195
to you with complaints. You never hear them. And then they’re paralyzed because they don’t

1880
01:58:02.195 –> 01:58:05.795
actually know what the solution is. And so it’s a, it’s a, it’s a cul

1881
01:58:05.795 –> 01:58:09.570
de sac of escapism that allows you to think that

1882
01:58:09.570 –> 01:58:13.370
everything is correct as a leadership in reality it’s not. And then the problem gets

1883
01:58:13.370 –> 01:58:15.830
to be big enough, and then finally it blows up your company.

1884
01:58:20.615 –> 01:58:24.375
I don’t buy that, and I don’t

1885
01:58:24.375 –> 01:58:27.870
buy it cause I didn’t run and I don’t run my company that

1886
01:58:27.870 –> 01:58:31.630
way. And I did have 25 people at one point, and I

1887
01:58:31.630 –> 01:58:35.344
did have a lot of people bringing me a lot of problems And we

1888
01:58:35.344 –> 01:58:38.864
took a Socratic approach, to

1889
01:58:38.864 –> 01:58:42.530
solving many of those problems. And by the way, the

1890
01:58:42.530 –> 01:58:46.290
Socratic approach also involved accountability on the part of

1891
01:58:46.290 –> 01:58:49.875
the person poking holes in the problem Yes.

1892
01:58:50.014 –> 01:58:53.454
For executing on the solution, which we

1893
01:58:53.454 –> 01:58:56.890
cannot also dismiss. And

1894
01:58:57.350 –> 01:59:01.190
Socrates placed the responsibility, and this is fundamentally why they

1895
01:59:01.190 –> 01:59:04.170
charged him with with the crime of disrupting the youth.

1896
01:59:05.535 –> 01:59:08.595
He placed the responsibility for solving the problems of Greek society

1897
01:59:09.695 –> 01:59:13.375
on the shoulders of the people who could actually solve the

1898
01:59:13.375 –> 01:59:17.160
problems of Greek society. Yeah. Socrates is great

1899
01:59:17.460 –> 01:59:20.840
problem or great challenge to the state

1900
01:59:21.380 –> 01:59:25.025
was the idea that accountability existed at on the shoulders of the

1901
01:59:25.025 –> 01:59:27.205
individual, not the state

1902
01:59:29.313 –> 01:59:33.105
Tom point. You want to have integrity and character and wisdom in the world.

1903
01:59:33.105 –> 01:59:35.597
You wanna have it in the state? You wanna have it in your elected leaders?

1904
01:59:36.140 –> 01:59:39.600
All of it starts in your own house

1905
01:59:39.980 –> 01:59:43.585
around your own dinner table. For sure. That’s where all that

1906
01:59:43.585 –> 01:59:44.085
begins.

1907
01:59:49.240 –> 01:59:53.080
I’ll close there. Thanks for coming

1908
01:59:53.080 –> 01:59:56.540
on the podcast today, Tom. Always my pleasure.

1909
01:59:57.160 –> 01:59:59.315
And well, That’s it

1910
02:00:02.255 –> 02:00:03.005
for us.