When the Man Comes Around by Douglas Wilson and The Book of Revelation w/Brian Bagley

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Hello. My name is Jesan Sorrells,

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and this is the Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast,

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episode number 133.

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With our book today

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that well, well, let me talk a

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little bit about this book. We’re gonna sort of lay the foundation for what we’re

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about to experience with our guests today.

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There is one book in the course of human history that has

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influenced more people than any other book in human

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history. This book, that is part of a

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collection of books, it’s a part of a larger bibliotheca

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such as it were, has inspired songs, plays,

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other books, movies, and even poetry. As a matter

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of fact, it’s the only book or one of the only books

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that we in the west have been masticating

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over, arguing over, and thinking about

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for the last 2000 years. By the

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way, if you include the older parts of

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the book, it’s actually for about the last 5000

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years, By the way, I’ve got a sample

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of some of the poetry that comes from this book. These are not my

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words. I’m just going to go ahead and quote them. And I quote,

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and I heard as it were the noise of thunder. 1

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of the 4 beasts saying, come and see, and I saw,

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and behold, a white horse. There’s

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a man going round taking names,

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and he decides who to free and who to blame.

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Everybody won’t be treated all the same. There’ll

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be a golden ladder reaching down

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when the man comes around. The

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hairs on your arm will stand up at

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the terror in each sip and in each sup.

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Will you partake of that last offered cup

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or disappear into the potter’s ground

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when the man comes around. Here are the

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trumpets. Here are the pipers. 100,000,000

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angels singing. Multitudes are marching

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to the big kettle drum.

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Voices, calling voices, crying,

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summer born and summer die. It’s

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alpha and omegas kingdom come.

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And if you know that song, or if you know that poetry,

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you know exactly what I just said.

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Of course, there have been commentaries on this famous book that we are going to

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talk about today. And the commentaries have been written

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by theologians from, Augustine and

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Aquinas all the way to the theologian or the

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pastor who is the author of the commentary that we are going to be talking

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about today. These commentaries on this much

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larger book are almost as famous as the book

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itself. I don’t know what the term is. I couldn’t figure it out when I

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was putting together the script today. I couldn’t figure out what the term is for

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something that gets fame from just standing next to something else.

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But the power of this book

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allows it to imbue fame, import

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fame, impute fame to other things that

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stand next to it. That’s the power of

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this book and the commentaries about this book.

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So today on the podcast, we will be extracting leadership lessons

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from the most unlikely book of all, a

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commentary on the book of revelations by the

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pastor, the social commentator, a YouTube and

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Twitter gadfly, Douglas Wilson,

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and his book on the book of revelations, when

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the man comes around.

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Leaders, keep in mind, even if you don’t believe

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in an almighty being, the kingdom

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of God is at hand.

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And today on the show, as is our want this is the

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last show of 2024. That’s when you will be

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listening to this. We are going to be joined

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by our guest and cohost,

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pastor, a writer, and a podcaster in his own

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right. We’ve had him on for a couple of episodes this year, and we had

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him on for an episode last year. And I thought it was fitting that he’d

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come in and join us for the commentary run.

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Right here. Hello, Brian. How are you doing today? Man,

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I am blessed to be here. Excited to wrap up the year.

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Yeah. And I couldn’t think of like I said, I couldn’t think of a better

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person to kinda have this conversation with, based

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on your background, your knowledge, not only of this

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book, the book of revelations, but also the book

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that we are covering that talks about the book of revelations.

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You and I have had multiple conversations

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offline, really, not really online. This is gonna be our 1st conversation online about

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Douglas Wilson. We could talk a little bit about about who he is and why

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it’s important that we’re covering this particular commentary from this particular

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guy. Most of our listeners probably

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don’t know what a reformed theologian actually is.

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Right. And so we’re gonna talk about a lot of things on this

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podcast. They were gonna cover a lot of territory. We’re also going to

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talk about the end of the year here on the podcast and what we have

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to look forward to in 2025.

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So normally on the show, I would have the book in my

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hand and I’d be reading clips through the book, and then we’d be talking

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about it. The book begins Doug Wilson’s book, when the man

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comes around, opens up with, well, the book of revelation

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and his, attempt to place the

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book of revelation in a larger context. And so let’s talk a little

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bit about the structure of, when the man comes around. You’ve read the

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book. You know Doug Wilson. Your background as a pastor makes

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you uniquely capable of speaking about this. So why don’t you go ahead? Why don’t

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you open up with how’s this book structured? What should readers who

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have no clue what a reformed theologian is? No clue what reformation

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what reformed theology actually is. No clue who Doug Wilson is or where

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he sits in the pantheon with RC Sproul and maybe even

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CS Lewis, although there are those who are gonna yell at me now and see

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that CS Lewis wasn’t reformed. Yeah. Okay. Calm all of you chorus

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and chaos people, calm down. Just chill out.

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And, yes, I know John MacArthur isn’t reformed either. Okay. Calm

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down. So who’s reformed? Who’s not?

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What does it mean? Who’s Doug Wilson? Why should we care about this book? Let’s

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go into let’s start off with a a basic question. What is the structure?

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What is an overview of When the Man Comes Around? Go ahead. Yeah.

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So so the the book When the Man Comes Around is is

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just a commentary on the book of

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Revelation itself. In fact, when Douglas

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Wilson, when he writes this book, he just reads

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through each, each passage of

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the book of Revelation. He reads that passage, and then he just comments

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on it. He talks about it. Now, and and and it’s it’s

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very well written. So it’s a it’s a great you know, if you don’t

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know anything about the book of Revelation, you don’t even have to have a copy

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of the Bible with you because Doug reads from a

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passage of that of of the Bible, and he just goes straight through it. It’s

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just just from front to back, just a straight reading

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of of the book of Revelation. And then in that commentary, he

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provides historical insights into, you know, what’s

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what’s really happening here in this passage. Because in the book of

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Revelation, there’s a lot of metaphor and a lot of

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allegory. There’s a lot of there’s a lot of pictures that

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are presented in that text, and Doug

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helps you kind of understand what what’s really being said. What

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like, when or, like, a great example is, the

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the dragon with with 7 heads. Well, that’s you know, he he helps

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you understand that that that’s a a clear alliteration,

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or a picture, I guess, of of Rome and the

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Roman government. And then he talks through, like, the 7 the 7,

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heads on that on that dragon were the 7,

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emperors of the Roman Empire, I believe starting with Augustus

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and end ending with, Vespasian. Or, actually,

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maybe there was one after Vespasian. I can’t remember. But, anyway but there is you

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know? And and so what Doug does in this book is he helps he

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helps put a a historical underpinning just to kinda

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help you know what’s happening in the book as you read it. So it

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it’s a really straightforward reading of the text. And

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now you mentioned Haysan, you mentioned,

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you know, that, you know, he’s reformed and he is reformed.

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But what I would say what’s probably,

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just as important, maybe maybe more important, but just as important

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is he in addition to being reformed, he’s also,

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takes a particular view of a certain passage

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in here called the millennium, and that really informs,

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in addition to his his reformed background. But but the the view of

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the millennium is what really informs his whole view of

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this book. And he’s a postmillennialist, and and we can get into

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what that means later. But Yeah. But that is, that’s kind of what

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informs now as as a reformed, as a

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reformed guy, you know, he has he takes a particular view of

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how God applies salvation to

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his people. That’s called the the the technical the theological term

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for that is called soteriology. So he he

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takes a a a soteriology that’s, that says that god,

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chose who would be saved before the end of the world.

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And, you know, people can debate on, is that right? Is that wrong?

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You know, that’s been going on for centuries. It’s not gonna be resolved anytime soon.

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But that, that does definitely work its way

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into his understanding of of this particular book.

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Now for someone who is not a

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reformed evangelical, for someone who maybe comes

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from a different branch of evangelicalism, maybe,

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let’s say, the episcopalian branch

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or the Anglican branch or, I’m

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gonna go away for out on the left, and I’m gonna say the Unitarian

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branch. Right? Or for someone who is from now

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let me go further to the right that even reformed. Someone who comes to this

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from a orthodox background. We have a lot of listeners in

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Eastern Europe. They don’t I won’t say they don’t

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understand. I would say it’s esoteric to the point of,

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being obfuscated the the level of,

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shall we say, dismembering or dysfunction

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that is in Protestant theology. Most people don’t

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understand what number 1, why Protestant theology is so

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fractured. That’s number 1. But number 2, they also don’t understand

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why and I’m gonna ask you a core question here. Why is it when everyone

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can read the bible, no one can come to a correct and not a correct,

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a clean, united understanding when the

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words are clearly here. And I have my bible in front of me, but the

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words are clearly here, so why can’t we just all, to paraphrase

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from the 19 nineties, why can’t we all just get along? So so

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so for those for those who are outside of the reform

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tradition, maybe in other evangelical traditions or more orthodox traditions that

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don’t get any of this and are listening to this and going, why are we

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talking about this? Explain why we’re talking about this. Why does

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this matter? Why should we care? Yeah. Okay.

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So so, obviously, there’s there’s the, you know,

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you have protestant tradition, and and the protestant tradition is,

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like you said, fractured into many, many different branches

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and and streams. If you were theological streams, we can call them

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that. And then you’ve got a, like, more of a Catholic stream or maybe an

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Eastern Orthodox stream of faith. What what

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separated the Protestants from those other

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streams of faith was, the the Protestants

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insisted on the supremacy of the word of God.

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And that’s not to say that Catholics don’t value God’s word. That’s not what

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I’m saying. The the the where the rub came

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was let’s say you had, you had

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the church, like, when when the church first began, right after

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the the day of Pentecost, the Christ dies on the cross.

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He’s resurrected. He appears to his disciples,

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you know, on the 3rd day after, you know, after he arose and

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appeared to the disciples, and then he was with them for another 40 days before

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he ascended into heaven. At at that

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began, at his ascension, okay, there was, just a a

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few days later, they had something called the day of Pentecost. And the day

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of Pentecost ushered in the age of the church,

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which was the beginning of church history.

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And at that time, there were,

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there wasn’t a lot of church tradition. There were just churches that were coming around.

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They were they were, very young churches. And

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they, and so they’re really all there was was just

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the Old Testament. The the New Testament hadn’t been written yet by the apostles. It

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was just really the the word of God, and and even that was just the

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Old Testament. As the word of god developed through the

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letters and writings of the apostles that, that would

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ultimately be included in the canon of scripture.

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That became god’s holy word. And that that

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canon, we believe, was closed around a 100 AD with the

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book of Revelation, which we think was written around,

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well, actually, we think it was written sometime around just before

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the fall of Rome or the the fall of Jerusalem, which would have put it,

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like, 68, maybe 69 AD, something like that. The fall

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of Jerusalem was 70 AD. So it was not long after

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that. Well, that that’s the last well, that closes the canon

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of scripture at that point. And so so there were

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many debates and heresies that came from

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interpreting scripture because people would misinterpret

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things in the text that would lead to heresies.

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And so from those heresies, we got the apostles’ creed. We

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got the Nicene creed. We got the Athanasian creed. And so

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all of these these, these church councils were called

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to develop creeds that would help us understand the

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text so that we could eliminate heresy,

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things that actually undermine the word of God, the the

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actual teaching of God’s word. So one famous one was,

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that Christ did not come in the flesh, that that Jesus was it

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wasn’t actually you know, yeah, he was here, but it wasn’t really in

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bodily form. It was, it it

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was just kind of an apparition, and and that kinda took

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off in a lot of sectors, and it and it began to lead people astray.

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So these church councils met over time to develop

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creeds, and and and what happened was

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after the 3rd, 4th let’s say let’s call it the 5th church council,

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there they began to take on other topics,

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okay, that were that were outside of the realm of scripture.

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But yet these these councils continued their words

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continued to be binding upon the church. And so you

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have the Catholic church, and to a to an extent, the Eastern

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Orthodox Church at the same time, the the the Eastern Roman Empire out

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of Constantinople, you know, they were constantly

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updating their doctrine in there. And what happened was the traditions,

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the religious traditions, began to

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overshadow the word of God. And many Christians in

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Europe felt that, hey. Well, you know, we the

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church says that we have to do penance. We have to pay,

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indulgences to the church to cover our sins, but that’s not

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anywhere in scripture. We don’t find that in in the holy word anywhere.

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And so so there was a a push to say, hey. All of

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these things actually undermine the teaching of god’s grace.

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And and so there was a reformation to actually get

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to reform the church to get back to what the

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Bible actually taught. And so so there was a pushing

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aside of tradition and embracing the the word of god. So

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so I would say that’s that’s and broadly, that’s what separates

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Protestantism from Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox.

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And I would say that there’s a great book out here that will help you

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that think about all of what Brian just laid out there

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kinda succinctly in about 5 minutes. It’s called

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The History of Christianity by Paul Johnson. Paul Johnson was a

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historian, wrote many, many books, including Modern

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Times and many others that are great historical books. I put them up there with,

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like, Will and Ariel Durant. Paul Johnson was

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British. He had access to

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documents and artifacts and historical

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understanding, being out of England

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and being out of the British Empire. And he wrote the history of

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Christianity late in his career as a devout Catholic

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seeking to understand Catholicism more. And that book

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starts off with and Brian will like this. It starts off with the

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argument in the book of Galatians that Peter references

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or that Paul references where he argued with Peter and got in his face.

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And Paul starts he he basically says, this is the beginning of

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historical Christianity. When Paul and

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Peter, to to your point about creeds, right,

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are gathered at a council to decide what the

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future is going to be, which which way Christianity to to

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paraphrase from that, to do the word the verbal version of that meme that floats

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around all over the area, which way western man. Right? And it

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was it the the the choice or the fork in the road that

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was hit at that time because the disciples were still alive. People with direct understanding

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of Jesus were still alive. Paul who had no direct understanding of

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Jesus was making inroads with people who were not Jewish.

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And the church had to decide, are we going to be

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Jerusalem focused, or are we going to be

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gentile focused? And Paul’s argument with Peter,

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which ostensibly we don’t because we don’t understand it almost 25100

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well, 2000 years later. We really don’t understand this argument, why the issue of circumcision

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was such a big deal. We don’t get that. They got it. Peter got

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it. Paul got it. Paul got in Peter’s face. And the way

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Paul Johnson frames it is Paul gets in Peter’s face. And then

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from there, we now tumble out of biblical Christianity into

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historical Christianity. We literally tumble out of the cradle, and now we’re in the

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world. And he traces the growth of the history of Christianity

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all the way through from that moment all the way down through 2000

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years of Christian history to the beginning of the 20th

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century and the struggles that Christianity had, against scientific

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materialism, evolution, and, of course,

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the postmodern giants of deconstructionism, French deconstructionism that

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came out of World War 2. And it is a it is it’s it’s one

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volume. It’s a massive book, but it’s hugely interesting

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because what you do is you get insights into particularly the deep

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history of Christianity, that first, like, 500 years after Paul,

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when, to Brian’s point, traditions were being built

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off of something raw that had no traditions. The Jews were

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being vilified relentlessly and ruthlessly, and this gets back to the book

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of revelations, which we’re gonna talk about here in just a second. And it

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sets up all of the particularly with Augustine

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who laid the laid the cornerstone for a lot of,

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well, Augustine laid a cornerstone for a lot of things that then Thomas Aquinas

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built on top of. Those are the 2 I mean, Protestants can yell and scream

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all they want, but, like, Aquinas and Augustine, I mean, that’s it. Like, if you’re

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not reading those as a Protestant believer, I’m sorry. You only know, like, a

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third of the tale with Luther. Like, you just you just show me know a

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third of the tale. And even Luther would say that, by the way.

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So you get a clear sense of what historical,

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not non theological, but what historical Christianity looks like. And

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and for me, as a person of faith, as a person who is a Christian,

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I look at going back even further than Johnson, I

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look at the beginning of historical Christianity from

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what happened in acts, the book of acts,

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the 3rd book of acts when the holy spirit fell on the, the

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3,000 folks, and then they scattered.

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I I think and I’m gonna offer up a and I may talk about this,

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like, next year some more, but I’m gonna offer up an esoteric theory here. I

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think you had God who created the world in Genesis 1.

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You have Jesus that comes into the world after 400 years of silence

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in, in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. That’s that’s what

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Christmas is all about. Jesus comes into the world. That’s the embodiment of

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Christ, the embodiment of the word as John said in,

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in his gospel, the word made flesh. But then you have

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the the the spirit falling on everyone. That was the 3rd

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great interaction of the spirit of God with humanity.

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And I don’t think we as Christians forget non Christians for just a minute.

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We as Christians appreciate that nearly as much as we probably should.

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I don’t think the Roman Empire would have fallen over

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without that spirit being imbued in everybody. Mhmm.

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Not just the Jews. And I think the book of revelations points to some

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of that. I think it proves some of my thinking and some of my

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theory. Alright. So we’ve kind of laid the foundation here. This

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is this seems very theological. This seems very

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topical. I wish I could have gotten Doug on. Maybe we’ll get Doug on next

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year. We can talk about his own book here. Reach out to him. That would

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be awesome. I’ll just see him well a while for that

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one. Yeah. That would be great. Yeah. I have a couple of questions I wanna

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ask Doug here. Okay. So we’ve got we’ve got when

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a man comes around when the man comes around, we’ve got Doug Wilson. Doug comes

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out of that historical, tradition of theology and

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of reformed theology. How why is Doug different, and why does he

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cause so much let’s just talk a little bit about a

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little bit about him as an author. The literary life of Doug Wilson. Why

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does he cause so much consternation among people

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in religious circles? There’s a whole Facebook group that’s devoted to, like,

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hating on him and what he’s doing in Idaho. It’s just kind of

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amazing how many hackles he raises. Like, currently, the man is in a

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contra Trump about something on Twitter. Like, I watched a 20

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minute video of him the other day, and I’m just like, why are you

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why are we having reformed on reformed violence?

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Stop. But, you know, I often have said and and and Brian

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Bagley laughs at this because we used to both go to attend the the same

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church, the church where he served at, and the church where I went. That’s how

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we sort of met. Never let it be said that there’s not church

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discipline. There is church discipline. It comes in a lot of different

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ways. There’s always church discipline. Believers and non believers alike think

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that that they they are faulty. They’re thinking if they think that that is not

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true. So why does Doug Wilson cause so many

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people bits? Why does he drive so

387
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many people crazy? Well, first off, to kinda go back

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to your, your your talk there on on fights within the church. I

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I I was in Paris one time teaching at a a

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biblical institute there in Paris, and I remember I taught on so I can’t remember

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what we were talking about. Okay? It was overview of the New Testament. And

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this this French theologian comes up to me after the class, and

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we were we exchanged some thought. You know, he gave me some thoughts, and I

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gave him some counter thoughts. And he said he said, you know what? That’s

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okay. No worries. Every man is entitled to his own mistakes.

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I’m very I’m very French of you, sir. I I I love you, brother.

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I love you so much. That’s amazing. No. But, no. I

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think I think with Doug so,

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Doug is such a strong writer and a strong

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thinker that he’s ahead of a lot of people in a

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lot of ways. Mhmm. And anyone who is a first

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mover disrupts things. And and so

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so Doug is constantly disrupting,

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kind of the old order, if you will. And whether

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they wanna admit it or not, the old order actually benefits a lot from having

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Douglas around. But, you know,

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Doug is kind of like, he’s kinda like

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Winston Churchill in some ways. He has a lot of courage

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to say things Mhmm. That that otherwise

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would not be said in very dangerous times.

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And, and and so I first kind of, I knew of

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Doug Wilson. I just knew him kind of out there on the periphery.

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But to me, I really kinda got to know Doug and and

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appreciate Doug during the whole COVID pandemic, all the shenanigans going

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on with government shutdowns and how that was affecting our church

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there in Texas, and and just how there was how

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very few people were willing to voice an opinion on that.

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And Doug was not only willing to voice an opinion, but he was actually willing

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to contemplate, you know, a

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proper a a good biblical church response

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for people whose consciences were being trampled by by

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government. And so so I really appreciated what

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he said there and what he did. And the thing that I’ve noticed

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about Doug is, you know, he will admit mistakes. When he

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makes a mistake, he admits it. In fact, he has a website that lists all

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of the controversies, all the ways he’s been misrepresented, mistakes that

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he’s admitted that he made, and, and then how he’s

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changed his views on those things. Mhmm. And, and so and

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and so I appreciate someone who’s willing to be so open and

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honest that I’m gonna put it out here on the Internet for anybody who’s willing

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to go spend 10 minutes and read it. Mhmm. And, and so I I

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feel like the other day, I was listening to somebody talk about a book on

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that Doug Wilson wrote. And what was so funny is they won’t mention him by

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name. Right? They’re the the the the controversial pastor who shall not be

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named. But but they say, oh, but he was involved in federalism.

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Okay? Yes. Which one which was one of those things that he

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disavowed and he wrote a lengthy thing about, but

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it’s sort of a way for people to just sort of write him off and

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they don’t have to address anything by just saying, oh, he he believed in federalism.

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That’s terrible. And, anyway, so it’s it’s

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don’t evangelicalism has its own cancel culture. You know?

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Don’t, don’t think it doesn’t. You know? They’re they have everybody has

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their own opinions and their own, you know, lines that they don’t wanna

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cross. But but to your point, Doug Doug is

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he gets in, he gets in a lot of arguments with folks, and I say

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arguments. 200 years ago,

447
00:28:11.414 –> 00:28:15.014
this would not be controversial. Like, the the the way that we the

448
00:28:15.174 –> 00:28:18.779
this type of banter and talking back and forth, that was the way

449
00:28:18.779 –> 00:28:22.620
people talked to each other because they were thinking, and they had

450
00:28:22.620 –> 00:28:26.220
to defend their thoughts, against other

451
00:28:26.220 –> 00:28:28.480
people who were it was it was, like, literally

452
00:28:29.740 –> 00:28:33.535
intellectual warfare, intellectual and I and I and I don’t mean,

453
00:28:33.535 –> 00:28:37.235
like, people were gonna die, but but ideas have consequences.

454
00:28:37.855 –> 00:28:41.535
Right. And some ideas need to die. They need to die,

455
00:28:41.535 –> 00:28:44.995
and others need to live. And the strong ideas

456
00:28:45.520 –> 00:28:49.200
that contribute to human flourishing, they deserve a fight. They

457
00:28:49.200 –> 00:28:52.580
deserve to be fought over, and and the the good ideas

458
00:28:52.640 –> 00:28:56.400
deserve to triumph. And so so we it’s

459
00:28:56.400 –> 00:28:59.865
it’s the feminist society that we live in that gets its

460
00:28:59.865 –> 00:29:03.705
feelings hurt all the time that, you know, kinda gets wound up about this.

461
00:29:03.705 –> 00:29:06.445
But, anyway, I I think that answers your question.

462
00:29:08.024 –> 00:29:11.544
Yes. And so you’re gonna have a guy like that look at a

463
00:29:11.544 –> 00:29:15.000
book that’s part of the book of books, which is the bible.

464
00:29:16.420 –> 00:29:20.120
Look at the book of Revelation, and he is going to make certain

465
00:29:20.420 –> 00:29:24.260
assertions about that book. And I read when

466
00:29:24.260 –> 00:29:27.845
the man comes around, gosh, probably earlier this

467
00:29:27.845 –> 00:29:31.625
year and I’ve, I’ve been through it twice and I have,

468
00:29:32.164 –> 00:29:35.605
I’ve never really talked about my journey or my personal, my

469
00:29:35.605 –> 00:29:38.184
personal, my personal journey with the book of revelation.

470
00:29:39.284 –> 00:29:40.424
But it is a.

471
00:29:44.610 –> 00:29:48.130
Well, it’s a book that if you interpret it through a lens of

472
00:29:48.130 –> 00:29:51.410
dispensationalism, and I’m going to say something else about this as we get into the

473
00:29:51.410 –> 00:29:55.164
book of revelation here a little bit. If you interpret it

474
00:29:55.164 –> 00:29:58.384
through a certain lens, it can wind up your life.

475
00:29:59.965 –> 00:30:03.644
And there are many Christians in particular I think

476
00:30:03.644 –> 00:30:07.404
Christians in the United States, in particular, evangelical Christians in the

477
00:30:07.404 –> 00:30:11.110
United States who are not doing the work they need to be

478
00:30:11.110 –> 00:30:14.790
doing in the world of leading, and they are

479
00:30:14.790 –> 00:30:18.410
allowing the secular materialist atheists to rule the day

480
00:30:19.110 –> 00:30:22.730
because they have misinterpreted the reading the book of revelations.

481
00:30:23.430 –> 00:30:26.965
Right. And they have bought too many

482
00:30:27.585 –> 00:30:31.265
copies of the late great planet Earth and have

483
00:30:31.265 –> 00:30:34.885
allowed that to become their theology. And it

484
00:30:35.025 –> 00:30:38.625
drives me once I started seeing this probably about 5 or 6 years

485
00:30:38.625 –> 00:30:41.690
ago, it has it’s been sort of like a like

486
00:30:42.790 –> 00:30:45.830
a like a piece of, like a nail that’s just been driven slowly into my

487
00:30:45.830 –> 00:30:48.550
brain, like, deeper and deeper and deeper, and it’s got a hot end on it.

488
00:30:48.550 –> 00:30:52.250
It just keeps searing and dry and it dry my wife will tell you. And

489
00:30:52.835 –> 00:30:55.955
Brian knows my wife. It’ll I I start yelling. And it it it and my

490
00:30:55.955 –> 00:30:59.075
wife’s like, you gotta you gotta she doesn’t get as nearly as excited about this

491
00:30:59.075 –> 00:31:02.855
as I do. And I’m like, you because I can see where

492
00:31:03.875 –> 00:31:07.015
if your theological underpinnings are faulty,

493
00:31:07.540 –> 00:31:11.300
your philosophical underpinnings will be faulty, and thus your actions will

494
00:31:11.300 –> 00:31:14.900
be faulty. And there will be things that you will allow other people of the

495
00:31:14.900 –> 00:31:18.420
world to get away with because your default and I’ve had many

496
00:31:18.420 –> 00:31:22.180
good god fearing sal they’re going to heaven Christians say

497
00:31:22.180 –> 00:31:25.795
this. Well, I don’t need to worry about

498
00:31:25.795 –> 00:31:29.554
getting involved in all that stuff over there, like with voting or

499
00:31:29.554 –> 00:31:32.695
politics or policy or their neighborhoods or whatever

500
00:31:33.315 –> 00:31:37.155
because Jesus is just gonna come back tomorrow. Mhmm. And the

501
00:31:37.155 –> 00:31:40.990
question I have, the counter I always

502
00:31:41.049 –> 00:31:44.890
have to that is, what will you do if

503
00:31:44.890 –> 00:31:46.990
Jesus doesn’t show up tomorrow?

504
00:31:48.730 –> 00:31:52.535
What will you have built on the off chance that you

505
00:31:52.535 –> 00:31:56.135
live another 30 or 40 or 50 years and

506
00:31:56.135 –> 00:31:59.895
Jesus doesn’t show up? What bold thing will

507
00:31:59.895 –> 00:32:03.575
you have done and put forth if when the man

508
00:32:03.575 –> 00:32:07.320
comes around, but it ain’t in your time and it ain’t in

509
00:32:07.320 –> 00:32:11.080
your children’s time, and it ain’t in your and there’s no answer to

510
00:32:11.080 –> 00:32:14.520
that for American Christians. I

511
00:32:14.520 –> 00:32:18.280
fundamentally believe that Americans care far more about the book

512
00:32:18.280 –> 00:32:22.075
of revelations than other evangelical Christians in other parts

513
00:32:22.075 –> 00:32:25.915
of the world. I don’t think evangelical Christians in China care very

514
00:32:25.915 –> 00:32:27.775
much about the book of revelation,

515
00:32:31.915 –> 00:32:35.730
but don’t believe me. We’re gonna talk about the

516
00:32:35.730 –> 00:32:39.490
Scofield bible too here in a bit. Let me read directly from the

517
00:32:39.490 –> 00:32:42.950
book of revelation, though, which because we always try to read directly from the book.

518
00:32:43.410 –> 00:32:47.090
So to the book. Right? To the book

519
00:32:47.090 –> 00:32:50.825
of revelation. Now the version that I have, of course, is the

520
00:32:50.825 –> 00:32:54.044
King James version because as I have said

521
00:32:55.144 –> 00:32:58.684
on the podcast, the King James version of the bible

522
00:32:59.384 –> 00:33:02.985
is the version of the bible that stands as a bulwark of purity of

523
00:33:02.985 –> 00:33:06.700
language against the degradation of language and the degradation of the

524
00:33:06.700 –> 00:33:10.380
English language. Now there are going to be those of you, my wife

525
00:33:10.380 –> 00:33:13.760
included, that, like, the, ESV version or the NKV

526
00:33:14.860 –> 00:33:18.404
version or the new American version or whatever. Please read

527
00:33:18.404 –> 00:33:22.164
whatever version you may read. The message bible is fine too,

528
00:33:22.164 –> 00:33:26.005
I suppose. But I stand. This is this is my

529
00:33:26.005 –> 00:33:29.365
thing. I I stand on the I stand on the, on the

530
00:33:29.365 –> 00:33:31.789
granite of the King James version.

531
00:33:33.130 –> 00:33:36.090
Good thing. And, yes, I know. And, yes, I know King James was a was

532
00:33:36.090 –> 00:33:39.690
a challenging man who was writing this I get all that. And I

533
00:33:39.690 –> 00:33:42.190
stand on the granite of the King James Bible.

534
00:33:44.090 –> 00:33:47.725
Alright. Thanks, sir. Shakespeare liked

535
00:33:47.725 –> 00:33:50.385
it. Yes. He did. And it was good enough for Shakespeare.

536
00:33:53.885 –> 00:33:57.325
It’s good enough for me. Alright. Back to the

537
00:33:57.325 –> 00:34:00.840
book. The revelation of Jesus Christ.

538
00:34:00.900 –> 00:34:04.740
Greetings to the 7 churches. The revelation of Jesus Christ, which god

539
00:34:04.740 –> 00:34:08.260
gave unto him to show unto his servants things which would shortly come to

540
00:34:08.260 –> 00:34:11.860
pass, and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his

541
00:34:11.860 –> 00:34:15.674
servant, John, who bear record of the word of God and of the testimony

542
00:34:15.674 –> 00:34:19.355
of Jesus Christ and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that

543
00:34:19.355 –> 00:34:23.194
readeth and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things

544
00:34:23.194 –> 00:34:26.414
which are written therein for the time is at hand.

545
00:34:27.449 –> 00:34:31.050
John, to the 7 churches which are in Asia, grace be unto you and

546
00:34:31.050 –> 00:34:34.409
peace. From him which is and which was and which is to

547
00:34:34.409 –> 00:34:38.190
come, from the 7 spirits which are before his

548
00:34:38.250 –> 00:34:41.984
throne. And from Jesus Christ, who

549
00:34:41.984 –> 00:34:45.265
is the faithful witness and the first begotten of the dead and the prince of

550
00:34:45.265 –> 00:34:48.065
the kings of the earth, unto him that loved us and washed us from our

551
00:34:48.065 –> 00:34:51.824
sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God his

552
00:34:51.824 –> 00:34:54.804
father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever.

553
00:34:55.230 –> 00:34:58.990
Amen. Behold, he cometh with clouds,

554
00:34:58.990 –> 00:35:02.830
and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him,

555
00:35:02.830 –> 00:35:06.530
and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so,

556
00:35:06.830 –> 00:35:10.625
amen. I am alpha and omega, the beginning

557
00:35:10.765 –> 00:35:14.205
and the ending, saith the lord, which is and which

558
00:35:14.205 –> 00:35:17.665
was and which is to come, the almighty.

559
00:35:18.285 –> 00:35:21.985
Now that’s just the first eight verses of the book of Revelation

560
00:35:22.260 –> 00:35:26.100
right there, the greeting right there. Most people will read that, and

561
00:35:26.100 –> 00:35:29.480
they will stop because they’ll go, I don’t know what any of this means.

562
00:35:29.860 –> 00:35:31.400
This seems weird and esoteric.

563
00:35:34.865 –> 00:35:38.325
What does the book of Revelation actually

564
00:35:39.184 –> 00:35:42.704
mean? And it’s interesting because right now in my bible in a year, I’m actually

565
00:35:42.704 –> 00:35:46.305
reading, Ezekiel 36, 37, 38, 39, and

566
00:35:46.305 –> 00:35:49.650
40, which weirdly enough, I I just recognized it the other day,

567
00:35:49.809 –> 00:35:53.410
overlaps with, John’s prophecies in the book of

568
00:35:53.410 –> 00:35:57.250
Revelation about the measurement of the temple and the inside of the

569
00:35:57.250 –> 00:36:01.089
court and where the, where the unbelievers will be and where the believers will

570
00:36:01.089 –> 00:36:03.730
be and so on and so on. It’s kind of interesting. I finally like, that

571
00:36:03.730 –> 00:36:06.995
finally clicked over in my head, but I don’t wanna get that esoteric. I wanna

572
00:36:06.995 –> 00:36:10.675
keep this very broad and accessible. Just from the

573
00:36:10.675 –> 00:36:14.435
first book, just from that first eight verses, what should

574
00:36:14.435 –> 00:36:18.210
people take from this? What is John setting up? And, why

575
00:36:18.210 –> 00:36:22.050
is I am the alpha and omega the beginning and the ending? Why

576
00:36:22.050 –> 00:36:25.410
is that in red in the King James version? Why are those words in

577
00:36:25.410 –> 00:36:29.170
red? Yeah. So so the answer to that to

578
00:36:29.170 –> 00:36:32.785
that question is what is this book about? I mean, he says, right there

579
00:36:32.785 –> 00:36:36.545
in verse 1, he says, it’s about things that must shortly take

580
00:36:36.545 –> 00:36:39.925
place. Like, things that are gonna take place in the very near future.

581
00:36:40.145 –> 00:36:43.985
So we know this book was written, you know, late sixties, AD. Nobody can

582
00:36:43.985 –> 00:36:47.540
put a, you know, a nail a date on it, but it’s late sixties.

583
00:36:47.680 –> 00:36:51.140
And the the things as as you get into the book and you read,

584
00:36:51.440 –> 00:36:55.280
when you begin to understand the symbolism and you understand that this book

585
00:36:55.280 –> 00:36:58.580
really is about the fall of

586
00:36:58.640 –> 00:37:02.245
Babylon, which is a, which

587
00:37:02.245 –> 00:37:06.025
is the city of Jerusalem, it’s a it’s imagery

588
00:37:06.085 –> 00:37:09.845
for Jerusalem, then then you understand,

589
00:37:09.845 –> 00:37:13.065
like, well, that’s that’s this book is it’s detailing

590
00:37:13.940 –> 00:37:17.620
how the the the, the end

591
00:37:17.620 –> 00:37:21.460
of the Judaic age will come about, which will

592
00:37:21.460 –> 00:37:25.220
come with the destruction of the temple. And then what will the new age

593
00:37:25.380 –> 00:37:29.225
what will the church age be like? And then what will

594
00:37:29.305 –> 00:37:32.605
and, you know, the end, what will how how will it all ultimately culminate?

595
00:37:33.625 –> 00:37:37.465
But, yeah. And then, you know, what’s the the

596
00:37:37.465 –> 00:37:40.825
thing about that that verse 8, I’m the alpha and omega, the beginning and the

597
00:37:40.825 –> 00:37:44.520
end, one who is and who is to come the almighty, that that is

598
00:37:45.540 –> 00:37:49.300
that’s God declaring his authorship over history. So he’s

599
00:37:49.300 –> 00:37:52.920
he’s saying, hey. I’m I’m uniquely qualified to talk about this

600
00:37:53.140 –> 00:37:56.625
because I’m writing the story. I’m literally the one writing and

601
00:37:56.625 –> 00:38:00.145
executing the story. The I was at the beginning. I’ll be at the

602
00:38:00.145 –> 00:38:03.365
end, and I’m the one who’s, who’s to come.

603
00:38:03.745 –> 00:38:07.500
And, and so I

604
00:38:07.500 –> 00:38:10.960
I think, those words are in red because

605
00:38:11.100 –> 00:38:14.700
Christ, in particular versions of the Bible, a lot

606
00:38:14.700 –> 00:38:18.460
of, Protestant versions of the Bible, you’ll see the

607
00:38:18.460 –> 00:38:21.915
words of Christ in red. And so that

608
00:38:22.075 –> 00:38:25.515
those the that text, I am the alpha and omega, that’s that’s

609
00:38:25.515 –> 00:38:29.275
attributed to Christ. Like, he is the beginning and the

610
00:38:29.275 –> 00:38:32.815
end. Alright. Now let’s pick up

611
00:38:33.400 –> 00:38:36.860
back to the book of Revelation. Let’s pick up with verse 9.

612
00:38:37.480 –> 00:38:40.860
I, John, who also am your brother and companion in tribulation

613
00:38:41.640 –> 00:38:45.240
and in kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is

614
00:38:45.240 –> 00:38:48.600
called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus

615
00:38:48.600 –> 00:38:52.415
Christ. I was in the spirit on the Lord’s day

616
00:38:52.415 –> 00:38:55.795
and heard behind me a great voice of a trumpet saying,

617
00:38:56.255 –> 00:39:00.015
again in red, I am alpha and omega, the first

618
00:39:00.015 –> 00:39:03.820
and the last, and what thou seest, write in a book and send

619
00:39:03.820 –> 00:39:07.500
it unto the 7 churches which are in Asia, unto Ephesus, and unto

620
00:39:07.500 –> 00:39:11.180
Smyrna, unto Pergamos, and unto Thateria, and unto Sardis, and

621
00:39:11.180 –> 00:39:15.005
unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. And

622
00:39:15.005 –> 00:39:18.045
I turned to see a voice that spoke with me, and being turned, I saw

623
00:39:18.045 –> 00:39:21.885
7 golden candlesticks. And in the midst of the 7 candlesticks, one like

624
00:39:21.885 –> 00:39:25.645
unto the son of man, clothed with garment, down on down to the

625
00:39:25.645 –> 00:39:29.185
foot and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

626
00:39:29.730 –> 00:39:32.930
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow, and his

627
00:39:32.930 –> 00:39:36.530
eyes were as a flame of fire, and his feet like unto

628
00:39:36.530 –> 00:39:40.130
fine brass as if they burned in a furnace, and his voice as the sound

629
00:39:40.130 –> 00:39:43.825
of many waters. And he had in his right hand 7 stars, and out of

630
00:39:43.825 –> 00:39:47.184
his mouth went a sharp two edged sword, and his countenance was as the sun

631
00:39:47.184 –> 00:39:50.865
shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet

632
00:39:50.865 –> 00:39:54.224
as dead, and he laid his right hand upon me saying, unto

633
00:39:54.224 –> 00:39:57.630
me, fear not. I am the 1st and the

634
00:39:57.630 –> 00:40:01.310
last I am he that liveth and was dead and behold, I am alive

635
00:40:01.310 –> 00:40:04.990
forevermore. Amen. And have the keys of

636
00:40:04.990 –> 00:40:08.605
hell and of death. Write the

637
00:40:08.605 –> 00:40:11.565
things which thou hast seen and the things which are, the things which shall be

638
00:40:11.565 –> 00:40:15.405
hereafter. The mystery of the 7 stars, which thou sawest in my right hand,

639
00:40:15.405 –> 00:40:19.005
and the 7 golden candlesticks. The 7 stars are the angels of the 7

640
00:40:19.005 –> 00:40:22.225
churches, and the 7 candlesticks, which thou sawest are

641
00:40:22.630 –> 00:40:26.390
the 7 churches. That’s look

642
00:40:26.390 –> 00:40:29.849
of revelations chapter 9

643
00:40:30.150 –> 00:40:33.910
all the way through 20 verse 1 or or chapter

644
00:40:33.910 –> 00:40:37.430
1, versus a 9 through, through

645
00:40:37.430 –> 00:40:41.085
20. Okay. Now there’s a lot

646
00:40:41.085 –> 00:40:44.765
going on there. Let

647
00:40:44.765 –> 00:40:48.465
me ask you this because we do have a lot of listeners who are Jewish,

648
00:40:48.605 –> 00:40:52.285
and you said something very interesting that I’ve marked. You said the end of the

649
00:40:52.285 –> 00:40:56.020
Judaic age. There will be Jews who will

650
00:40:56.020 –> 00:40:59.780
stop listening to this podcast right now today. They will just stop. They will just

651
00:40:59.780 –> 00:41:03.540
be done because they they they have no

652
00:41:03.540 –> 00:41:07.300
dog of the fight. The first thing that they think of is anti

653
00:41:07.300 –> 00:41:10.905
semitism. To paraphrase on the comedian Marc Maron,

654
00:41:11.204 –> 00:41:15.045
who is Jewish, ethnically Jewish, not practicing. But

655
00:41:15.045 –> 00:41:18.724
Jesus isn’t my guy. Like, he’s you guys’ guy. Like, good luck

656
00:41:18.724 –> 00:41:22.530
with all that. He’s just I’ve heard of him. It’s not

657
00:41:22.530 –> 00:41:26.050
my guy. Larry David would say the same thing. It’s not my guy. I’m talking

658
00:41:26.050 –> 00:41:29.810
about those guys are pretty funny. Funny Jewish guys. But but

659
00:41:29.810 –> 00:41:33.174
you you see in particularly in modern Judaism, Dennis

660
00:41:33.174 –> 00:41:36.234
Prager, the Prager you, often will say this.

661
00:41:37.335 –> 00:41:40.635
He would rather live under Christianity than under Islam.

662
00:41:41.414 –> 00:41:44.875
Mhmm. But he’s not gonna get into the depths of,

663
00:41:45.849 –> 00:41:48.570
is Jesus the son of God? Like, you saw this with John MacArthur went on

664
00:41:48.570 –> 00:41:52.329
daily wire with Ben Shapiro one time. Right. Like, he was trying to convince

665
00:41:52.329 –> 00:41:55.630
Ben Shapiro that Jesus was the son of God, and Ben Shapiro wasn’t moving.

666
00:41:57.369 –> 00:42:01.025
So this idea of the end of the Judaic

667
00:42:01.025 –> 00:42:04.145
age, there are Jews walking around right now who will say that is an excuse

668
00:42:04.145 –> 00:42:07.825
for antisemitism and pogroms and holocausts. So

669
00:42:07.825 –> 00:42:11.585
what do you mean when you say the book of revelations is

670
00:42:11.585 –> 00:42:15.329
a is a sort of an announcement of the

671
00:42:15.329 –> 00:42:18.770
fall of Babylon and the end of the Judaic age? Because a Jewish person will

672
00:42:18.770 –> 00:42:21.890
hear that and will immediately shut this off because to them, that just sounds like

673
00:42:21.890 –> 00:42:25.190
an excuse to pogrom them or shove them into concentration camps

674
00:42:25.730 –> 00:42:28.395
or or destroy them with a nuclear weapon if you’re the Iranians.

675
00:42:29.415 –> 00:42:32.214
So how do you respond to that? Because modern Christians do have to deal with

676
00:42:32.295 –> 00:42:36.135
postmodern Christians do have to deal with that. Yeah. So

677
00:42:36.135 –> 00:42:39.895
all I would respond to that with is, Jesus is the

678
00:42:39.895 –> 00:42:43.369
fulfillment of all of the Old Testament prophecy. So

679
00:42:43.430 –> 00:42:47.270
so Jesus, carries

680
00:42:47.270 –> 00:42:50.570
on carries on the the the covenant,

681
00:42:51.510 –> 00:42:54.570
given to Moses in Genesis chapter 15,

682
00:42:55.275 –> 00:42:58.875
or sorry, to Abraham in Genesis chapter 15. And

683
00:42:58.875 –> 00:43:02.315
then, the the covenants, that were made with

684
00:43:02.315 –> 00:43:05.994
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and, with David. So so

685
00:43:05.994 –> 00:43:09.355
all those covenants are fulfilled in Christ. And so,

686
00:43:10.960 –> 00:43:14.420
so there’s there there’s not

687
00:43:14.960 –> 00:43:18.720
it it’s it’s not an excuse to beat up anybody. It’s

688
00:43:18.720 –> 00:43:22.480
an invitation for everyone to come

689
00:43:22.480 –> 00:43:25.895
into the kingdom of God, not just the Jews. Right?

690
00:43:25.895 –> 00:43:29.355
So remember, this is what the battle of

691
00:43:29.734 –> 00:43:33.515
Paul and Peter in Galatians was about. Right? So

692
00:43:33.655 –> 00:43:37.494
so Peter says, no. Everyone must be circumcised. You

693
00:43:37.494 –> 00:43:41.270
must become a you must remember the Jewish traditions. You must

694
00:43:41.270 –> 00:43:45.050
become a Jew. And Paul says, that is anathema.

695
00:43:45.750 –> 00:43:49.590
Mhmm. Right? Let like he says, let him if if if I

696
00:43:49.590 –> 00:43:53.270
or an angel come preaching to you this doctrine, let us be

697
00:43:53.270 –> 00:43:57.075
accursed. That is not true. And so so I would

698
00:43:57.075 –> 00:44:00.755
say it’s not an excuse, to to to

699
00:44:00.755 –> 00:44:04.455
beat anyone. It’s it’s an invitation to the whole world,

700
00:44:05.395 –> 00:44:08.935
to come and to be and to know Yahweh,

701
00:44:09.235 –> 00:44:12.809
to know him as God, the the father, the the God the

702
00:44:12.809 –> 00:44:16.569
father, God the son in Jesus, and then the spirit that that

703
00:44:16.569 –> 00:44:20.410
proceeds from the love of God and the father,

704
00:44:20.410 –> 00:44:24.185
that the spirit that proceeds from that is the Holy Spirit. So so

705
00:44:24.185 –> 00:44:27.805
to know those 3, that to know that trinity, to know God

706
00:44:27.945 –> 00:44:31.705
in his truest sense requires that one

707
00:44:31.705 –> 00:44:35.545
come to know Christ as the Messiah. That’s the

708
00:44:35.705 –> 00:44:38.960
that doesn’t preclude Jews. It fulfills

709
00:44:39.420 –> 00:44:43.100
Judaism. And that’s why the end of the Judaic age

710
00:44:43.260 –> 00:44:46.940
that’s what we talk about. When we say the end of Judaic age and the

711
00:44:46.940 –> 00:44:50.675
beginning of the church age, the church age is when now

712
00:44:50.675 –> 00:44:54.135
the kingdom of god expands to all the world, including the gentiles.

713
00:44:54.755 –> 00:44:58.195
Okay. Now tie in or

714
00:44:58.195 –> 00:45:01.335
or explain a little bit, if you don’t mind,

715
00:45:04.770 –> 00:45:08.450
what Babylon has to do with any of this. Because when when when when modern

716
00:45:08.450 –> 00:45:11.190
ear hears Babylon, if they’re educated,

717
00:45:13.810 –> 00:45:17.205
Jewish, Christian, secular, whatever, The

718
00:45:17.205 –> 00:45:20.505
modern ear hears Babylon and immediately thinks of Persia,

719
00:45:20.565 –> 00:45:24.025
maybe, Iraq, Iran

720
00:45:25.925 –> 00:45:29.609
maybe thinks of Islam, maybe. But

721
00:45:29.609 –> 00:45:33.369
most of the time, most people when they think of Babylon, they think of gardens,

722
00:45:33.369 –> 00:45:37.130
maybe, of the 7 wonders of the world. So why was Babylon so horrible, and

723
00:45:37.130 –> 00:45:40.569
why did Babylon have to fall? What does Babylon mean in the context of the

724
00:45:40.569 –> 00:45:43.335
book of revelations? Right. So when you go back and you look through the old

725
00:45:43.335 –> 00:45:47.175
testament and and you look at all of these civilizations that were

726
00:45:47.175 –> 00:45:50.855
judged by God for their tremendous evil, whether it’s

727
00:45:50.855 –> 00:45:54.155
Tyre, Sidon, Sodom and Gomorrah, Jericho, Babylon,

728
00:45:55.280 –> 00:45:58.980
Each one of these cities, the the the evil

729
00:45:59.280 –> 00:46:02.099
that occurred within them was so great

730
00:46:02.800 –> 00:46:06.339
that they were they were, in league

731
00:46:06.960 –> 00:46:10.595
with Satan or or the kings of the world

732
00:46:10.595 –> 00:46:14.355
as the as the scripture may call them. We’re we’re talking about

733
00:46:14.355 –> 00:46:17.875
demonic forces is what we’re talking about. Right. And so

734
00:46:17.875 –> 00:46:21.175
these these people had aligned themselves,

735
00:46:22.270 –> 00:46:25.410
prostituted themselves, or themselves, if you will,

736
00:46:25.790 –> 00:46:29.010
away from the one true God and given their allegiance,

737
00:46:29.710 –> 00:46:33.250
the desires of their heart, of their minds.

738
00:46:33.710 –> 00:46:37.244
They’ve given them to to other gods, to deep to

739
00:46:37.244 –> 00:46:40.785
demonic, influences. And these these

740
00:46:41.165 –> 00:46:44.765
kings, these human kings and and their kingdoms were in league with

741
00:46:44.765 –> 00:46:48.525
demonic forces that perpetuated all kinds of

742
00:46:48.525 –> 00:46:52.309
terrible evil, the worst kinds of evil that you could imagine,

743
00:46:52.769 –> 00:46:55.269
human sacrifice, prostitution,

744
00:46:56.609 –> 00:47:00.130
all kinds of debauchery, and just and and terrible

745
00:47:00.130 –> 00:47:03.815
things that that

746
00:47:03.954 –> 00:47:07.635
Babylon sort of came to represent and and if you go

747
00:47:07.635 –> 00:47:11.315
back to the Tower of Babel, right, you you know, that you have there’s

748
00:47:11.315 –> 00:47:12.535
this there’s this

749
00:47:16.410 –> 00:47:20.170
sort of man’s chronic problem is that he

750
00:47:20.170 –> 00:47:23.070
wants to be God. He wants to

751
00:47:23.530 –> 00:47:27.130
to put God, on his level or

752
00:47:27.130 –> 00:47:30.855
lower, and and he wants to be God. That’s

753
00:47:30.855 –> 00:47:34.455
man’s chronic problem. So remember what what the serpent said to Adam and Eve in

754
00:47:34.455 –> 00:47:38.075
the Garden of Genesis chapter 3. Mhmm.

755
00:47:38.615 –> 00:47:42.390
Did God say? Right. Did god say that?

756
00:47:42.390 –> 00:47:44.950
Did he really say that? And when he said it, did he really what did

757
00:47:44.950 –> 00:47:48.330
he really mean? Right. And and so so

758
00:47:49.830 –> 00:47:53.655
any any confusion that can be sown in in in

759
00:47:53.655 –> 00:47:57.335
any understanding of of who God is, what he is, what man

760
00:47:57.335 –> 00:48:00.795
is for, and and why we were created,

761
00:48:01.415 –> 00:48:05.175
anything that can get into that is gonna is going to and pervert. And

762
00:48:05.175 –> 00:48:08.570
so so Babylon so in essence, what what

763
00:48:08.650 –> 00:48:11.630
what’s being done here in the in Revelation is

764
00:48:12.490 –> 00:48:16.170
they’re saying, hey. All the things that that

765
00:48:16.170 –> 00:48:19.785
Israel was supposed to stand against And, you

766
00:48:19.785 –> 00:48:23.405
know, everything that it was supposed to represent as the people of God,

767
00:48:23.944 –> 00:48:27.704
it became what it hated. It it became those

768
00:48:27.704 –> 00:48:31.305
things. And so and even in here, there’s I can’t remember where in the in

769
00:48:31.305 –> 00:48:35.010
the chapter. I didn’t I didn’t mark it, but but he says that

770
00:48:35.010 –> 00:48:38.550
Jerusalem was guilty of the blood of the prophets, the apostles,

771
00:48:38.930 –> 00:48:42.450
and of the lamb. And so so all of these

772
00:48:42.450 –> 00:48:46.070
wicked places throughout human history wanted to destroy

773
00:48:47.090 –> 00:48:50.744
the work of God, and they opposed the work of God.

774
00:48:50.744 –> 00:48:54.585
And they that’s why they were judged. Well, Jerusalem killed its

775
00:48:54.585 –> 00:48:58.425
prophets. It killed its it it killed the apostles. It killed Christ. It

776
00:48:58.425 –> 00:49:01.545
it you know, Christ was put to he he came to his own people. His

777
00:49:01.545 –> 00:49:05.300
own people received him not. He was put to death. Right?

778
00:49:05.300 –> 00:49:08.840
And so so this was this was Christ saying, hey.

779
00:49:10.100 –> 00:49:13.860
The Judaic age is over, and I’m opening up the door

780
00:49:13.860 –> 00:49:17.480
not only to faithful to faithful Jews, to faithful

781
00:49:17.940 –> 00:49:21.575
Israelites, but I’m opening it up to the whole world. And

782
00:49:21.575 –> 00:49:25.415
anyone who wants to come to me can come to me, and and we’re

783
00:49:25.415 –> 00:49:27.915
ending we’re ending we’re ending Jerusalem.

784
00:49:28.935 –> 00:49:32.635
Jesus says in, or he’s quoted as saying in Matthew 23,

785
00:49:34.040 –> 00:49:37.720
where he’s yelling at the well, yelling. He’s having a

786
00:49:37.720 –> 00:49:41.480
vigorous intellectual warfare with the scribes and the

787
00:49:41.480 –> 00:49:44.220
Pharisees, in Matthew 23

788
00:49:45.000 –> 00:49:48.735
verse 34, Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets

789
00:49:48.795 –> 00:49:52.155
and wise men and scribes, and some of them you shall kill and

790
00:49:52.155 –> 00:49:55.835
crucify, and some of them you shall scourge in your synagogues and

791
00:49:55.835 –> 00:49:59.675
persecute them from city to city. That upon you may come all the righteous

792
00:49:59.675 –> 00:50:03.500
bloodshed upon the earth from the blood of the righteous Abel unto the blood of

793
00:50:03.500 –> 00:50:07.260
Zacharias, son of Barachias, whom you slew between the

794
00:50:07.260 –> 00:50:09.040
temple and the altar.

795
00:50:11.020 –> 00:50:14.555
That’s that okay. So that then leads into

796
00:50:14.555 –> 00:50:18.315
Matthew 24, which is signs of the end, which

797
00:50:18.315 –> 00:50:21.375
is always sort of particularly dispensational circles

798
00:50:21.755 –> 00:50:25.535
collapsed into, the, the book of revelation

799
00:50:25.994 –> 00:50:29.490
along with Thessalonians and some other some other

800
00:50:29.490 –> 00:50:32.850
references, including weirdly enough, I’ve seen in the last 30

801
00:50:32.850 –> 00:50:36.530
years. Oh, Daniel being pulled

802
00:50:36.530 –> 00:50:39.830
in, and some other things which I find to be very

803
00:50:40.450 –> 00:50:43.490
I I think it makes it more confusing, not less, but we’ll leave that aside

804
00:50:43.490 –> 00:50:47.335
for just a second. But it’s an attempt to sort of understand what you’re

805
00:50:47.335 –> 00:50:51.015
talking about here in this end of the Judaic age, which, again, I

806
00:50:51.015 –> 00:50:54.234
don’t think modern Christians understand very well.

807
00:50:55.575 –> 00:50:58.855
And I don’t think there’s an understand well, no. I think the I think the

808
00:50:58.855 –> 00:51:02.590
challenge comes in where we look

809
00:51:02.590 –> 00:51:06.050
around and even Jews will ask me this. Well, if Jesus came

810
00:51:06.350 –> 00:51:09.890
and everything, the kingdom of heaven is here, why is there still murder

811
00:51:10.270 –> 00:51:14.095
and and and death and sin? And you can’t

812
00:51:14.095 –> 00:51:17.055
tell me that the kingdom of heaven is here because people poor people are still

813
00:51:17.055 –> 00:51:20.895
here. Right? And if I go back and look at some of these prophecies, the

814
00:51:20.895 –> 00:51:24.595
prophecies that state, particularly in Isaiah,

815
00:51:25.055 –> 00:51:27.875
that state that all of these things will be

816
00:51:29.440 –> 00:51:32.960
made right. If I could just I could just look around with my eyes and

817
00:51:32.960 –> 00:51:35.360
see that for the last 2000 years, none of this has been made right. As

818
00:51:35.360 –> 00:51:38.740
a matter of fact, we just came out of a century where we actually

819
00:51:39.280 –> 00:51:43.095
forget doubling down, forget even quadrupling down. We quintuple

820
00:51:43.315 –> 00:51:46.755
fold down on the killing of people and making it less

821
00:51:46.755 –> 00:51:50.595
right. So how can you tell me that Jesus was the son of God?

822
00:51:50.595 –> 00:51:54.435
Which is, by the way, the objection. Because then all this would be made

823
00:51:54.435 –> 00:51:58.080
right. How can you tell me the the Judaic the Judaic age has ended? How

824
00:51:58.080 –> 00:52:01.440
can you tell me the Gentiles have learned anything? They’ve learned

825
00:52:01.440 –> 00:52:04.820
nothing. They’ve just continued down the same path of evil.

826
00:52:05.440 –> 00:52:08.960
And so people, particularly good evangelical Christians, look at the book of

827
00:52:08.960 –> 00:52:12.445
Revelation, and they will and they are looking for, I believe,

828
00:52:12.445 –> 00:52:15.585
fundamentally, the answer to that question of

829
00:52:16.285 –> 00:52:19.885
how do we make right no. Not even how do we make

830
00:52:19.885 –> 00:52:23.530
right. What does the end of the age look like? What does the end of

831
00:52:23.530 –> 00:52:27.369
all of this actually look like? Which, by the way, I wanna talk about

832
00:52:27.369 –> 00:52:31.130
the beast too. But which, by the way, is answered in, a little

833
00:52:31.130 –> 00:52:34.890
bit in revelations 21 about a new heaven and a new

834
00:52:34.890 –> 00:52:38.435
earth, which we’ll talk about that in just a minute. I wanna talk about

835
00:52:38.815 –> 00:52:40.515
being 75% predatorist.

836
00:52:42.735 –> 00:52:46.495
90 is good. 90. 990 is good. Okay. Well, Brian Bagley already warned me that

837
00:52:46.495 –> 00:52:47.555
you never go full predatorist.

838
00:52:50.339 –> 00:52:54.099
Never to go full predatorist. Although, the temptation, once you begin to

839
00:52:54.099 –> 00:52:57.859
see the impact of things like the Scofield bible and dispensationalism on how this

840
00:52:57.859 –> 00:53:01.220
book is interpreted, the strong temptation is is to go hard to the hoop in

841
00:53:01.220 –> 00:53:04.975
the other direction. Yeah. So let

842
00:53:04.975 –> 00:53:07.455
me let me let me go back to the book for just a second here.

843
00:53:07.455 –> 00:53:11.295
Go back to the book of revelations. I’m going to skip past a whole bunch

844
00:53:11.295 –> 00:53:14.975
of fun imagery and some interesting letters, including

845
00:53:14.975 –> 00:53:18.570
letters to the church in Ephesus and the church in Sardis, Laodicea,

846
00:53:19.430 –> 00:53:23.109
Philadelphia. I’m going to skip past the throne in heaven. I’m going to

847
00:53:23.109 –> 00:53:26.630
skip past the seals, which are very important, and the

848
00:53:26.630 –> 00:53:29.910
trumpets. I’m going to skip past all of that because you can go read that

849
00:53:29.910 –> 00:53:33.345
yourself, and And I would recommend going to your local church if you’ve never visited

850
00:53:33.345 –> 00:53:36.965
1. Take this to your pastor or to a pastor there

851
00:53:37.265 –> 00:53:40.865
and see what he or depending upon which area of the

852
00:53:40.865 –> 00:53:44.625
country or the world you live in, she may say, about

853
00:53:44.625 –> 00:53:48.400
this. And I’m going to go again past the prophecy of the 2

854
00:53:48.400 –> 00:53:51.860
witnesses and the woman with the child. I’m going to directly to Revelation 13.

855
00:53:53.520 –> 00:53:57.040
So we’re gonna start with the beast. I wanna you

856
00:53:57.040 –> 00:54:00.825
mentioned something about Satan there. I wanna come back to

857
00:54:00.825 –> 00:54:01.645
this idea.

858
00:54:04.585 –> 00:54:06.125
So revelation 13

859
00:54:08.105 –> 00:54:11.945
1. And I stood upon the sand of the sea and

860
00:54:11.945 –> 00:54:15.490
saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having 7 heads and 10 horns,

861
00:54:15.490 –> 00:54:19.170
and upon his head upon his horns, 10 crowns, and upon his

862
00:54:19.170 –> 00:54:22.930
heads, the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like

863
00:54:22.930 –> 00:54:25.170
like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and

864
00:54:25.170 –> 00:54:28.695
his mouth is the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his

865
00:54:28.695 –> 00:54:32.455
power and his seat and great authority. And I saw one of his

866
00:54:32.455 –> 00:54:35.495
heads as it were wounded to death, and his deadly wound was healed, and all

867
00:54:35.495 –> 00:54:39.255
the world wondered after the beast. And they

868
00:54:39.255 –> 00:54:42.875
worshiped the dragon, which gave power unto the beast, and they worshiped the beast saying,

869
00:54:43.080 –> 00:54:46.920
who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him? And

870
00:54:46.920 –> 00:54:50.680
there was given unto him a mouth to speak a mouth speaking great things and

871
00:54:50.680 –> 00:54:54.460
blasphemies, and power was given unto him to continue for 42 months.

872
00:54:55.665 –> 00:54:58.865
And he opened his mouth and blasphemy against God to blaspheme his name and his

873
00:54:58.865 –> 00:55:02.545
tabernacle and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto

874
00:55:02.545 –> 00:55:06.005
him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and power was given,

875
00:55:06.465 –> 00:55:10.210
him over all kindreds and tongues and nations. And all that

876
00:55:10.210 –> 00:55:13.330
dwell upon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the book

877
00:55:13.330 –> 00:55:16.550
of the life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

878
00:55:17.330 –> 00:55:20.150
If any man have an ear, let him hear.

879
00:55:21.410 –> 00:55:24.930
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity. He that

880
00:55:24.930 –> 00:55:28.485
killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the

881
00:55:28.485 –> 00:55:30.744
patience and the faith of the saints.

882
00:55:32.485 –> 00:55:35.685
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had 2

883
00:55:35.685 –> 00:55:38.484
horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exercised with all

884
00:55:38.484 –> 00:55:41.440
the power of the first beast before him and causeth the earth, and then which

885
00:55:41.440 –> 00:55:45.280
dwell therein to worship the first beast whose deadly wound was healed. And

886
00:55:45.280 –> 00:55:49.040
he doeth great wonders so that he make a fire come down from heaven and

887
00:55:49.040 –> 00:55:52.660
on earth in the sight of men, and deceiveth them

888
00:55:53.325 –> 00:55:57.085
that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles as which he

889
00:55:57.085 –> 00:56:00.525
had power to do in the sight of the beast, saying to them that dwell

890
00:56:00.525 –> 00:56:04.125
on the earth, they should make an image to the beast, which had the

891
00:56:04.125 –> 00:56:07.960
wound by a sword and did live. And he

892
00:56:07.960 –> 00:56:11.480
had the power to give life into unto the image of the beast

893
00:56:11.480 –> 00:56:15.160
and that the image of the beast should both speak

894
00:56:15.160 –> 00:56:19.000
and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast

895
00:56:19.000 –> 00:56:22.694
should be killed. And he causeth all, both small

896
00:56:22.694 –> 00:56:26.075
and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark

897
00:56:26.454 –> 00:56:30.295
in their right hand or in their foreheads. And

898
00:56:30.295 –> 00:56:33.674
that no man might buy or sell, save he that

899
00:56:34.260 –> 00:56:37.780
had the mark or the name of the beast or the number of his

900
00:56:37.780 –> 00:56:41.540
name. Here is wisdom. Let

901
00:56:41.540 –> 00:56:45.060
him that hath understanding count the number of the beast, or it is the

902
00:56:45.060 –> 00:56:48.005
number of a man, and his number is

903
00:56:48.704 –> 00:56:51.605
603 score and 6.

904
00:56:55.505 –> 00:56:58.805
This is one that people have been looking for

905
00:56:59.360 –> 00:57:01.780
since literally this was written down.

906
00:57:03.760 –> 00:57:07.140
Napoleon was supposed to be the beast or the antichrist.

907
00:57:08.160 –> 00:57:11.955
Hitler was a candidate. Name. Your

908
00:57:11.955 –> 00:57:14.375
favorite orange man here is now a candidate.

909
00:57:16.595 –> 00:57:19.895
There’s always been a search

910
00:57:20.435 –> 00:57:23.870
for this beast. Doug

911
00:57:23.870 –> 00:57:27.470
Wilson in his book, when the man comes

912
00:57:27.470 –> 00:57:31.010
around, makes the point as do many predatorists slash reformed

913
00:57:31.470 –> 00:57:35.150
thinkers around this book that the beast already came and went, and the

914
00:57:35.150 –> 00:57:38.765
beast was not necessarily a man, but a system. The

915
00:57:38.765 –> 00:57:42.285
beast is the economic system. Gary DeMar makes this point. The beast is an economic

916
00:57:42.285 –> 00:57:46.045
system. That’s where the buying and the selling in the market, all this stuff

917
00:57:46.045 –> 00:57:49.820
comes into play. But if we’re looking for an actual

918
00:57:49.820 –> 00:57:52.320
physical person, it was probably a Roman emperor,

919
00:57:53.500 –> 00:57:57.100
probably one of the one of the descendants of Caesar Augustus who was killing

920
00:57:57.100 –> 00:57:59.760
Christians, and that was the end of that.

921
00:58:01.194 –> 00:58:04.555
And yet there are Christians, to get into

922
00:58:04.555 –> 00:58:08.234
deep the deep exegesis of

923
00:58:08.234 –> 00:58:11.994
this book, who are still searching. I I mean,

924
00:58:11.994 –> 00:58:15.460
even today, in the Internet, www. Right?

925
00:58:17.040 –> 00:58:20.640
That happens to match up, in letters to 66

926
00:58:20.800 –> 00:58:24.500
or numbers, sorry, to 666. AI and robotics

927
00:58:25.085 –> 00:58:28.845
are now being, or particularly AI, are

928
00:58:28.845 –> 00:58:32.684
now being claimed

929
00:58:32.684 –> 00:58:35.825
as a precursor to a mark. Right?

930
00:58:37.325 –> 00:58:41.040
There was times during the COVID crisis that we just went through

931
00:58:41.040 –> 00:58:44.560
that if you took the COVID virus, I heard this in some Christian circles, you

932
00:58:44.560 –> 00:58:46.100
were accepting the mark.

933
00:58:49.440 –> 00:58:52.240
What do we do with what do we do with this piece of revelations? What

934
00:58:52.240 –> 00:58:55.855
do we do with the mark and the beast? Yeah. So, you said

935
00:58:55.855 –> 00:58:59.154
something a minute ago I wanna just go back and touch on real quick. Absolutely.

936
00:58:59.295 –> 00:59:03.135
You you asked you asked the question, and and we we got

937
00:59:03.135 –> 00:59:05.535
talking about something else, then we blew past it, but it was such a good

938
00:59:05.535 –> 00:59:08.890
question. I just wanna go back and just talk about it real briefly. You were

939
00:59:08.890 –> 00:59:12.330
talking about, hey. You know? And you were saying there are there may be Jewish

940
00:59:12.330 –> 00:59:16.010
people who are like, how could Jesus be the Messiah? Yes. The the world

941
00:59:16.010 –> 00:59:19.610
is so still terrible. How could the kingdom of God be coming? And so

942
00:59:19.610 –> 00:59:23.175
what the the what I would encourage modern readers to

943
00:59:23.175 –> 00:59:27.015
do, whether you’re Jewish or whatever, it doesn’t matter, but

944
00:59:27.015 –> 00:59:30.715
to look at the fruit of of Christianity,

945
00:59:32.135 –> 00:59:35.579
in in over the course of the last 2000

946
00:59:35.960 –> 00:59:39.800
years. Okay? So let me ask you this question. Ask

947
00:59:39.800 –> 00:59:43.640
yourself, would you rather be alive in the year 0 or

948
00:59:43.640 –> 00:59:47.319
the year 500? Which would it be? You would take 500.

949
00:59:47.319 –> 00:59:51.025
Okay? Oh, I’d take 500. Yeah. 500 or a1000. Right? Or take

950
00:59:51.025 –> 00:59:54.625
a little 1,000. Oh, yeah. Every every 5 so when you when you zoom

951
00:59:54.625 –> 00:59:57.985
out of history Mhmm. You you see a

952
00:59:57.985 –> 01:00:01.685
pattern that has favored Christendom

953
01:00:01.905 –> 01:00:05.700
in the West. K? So there have been certain things that

954
01:00:05.700 –> 01:00:09.540
have happened in the Christian west that have not happened

955
01:00:09.540 –> 01:00:13.240
in the Islamic world. In fact, that’s one of the greatest challenges

956
01:00:13.460 –> 01:00:17.125
to the Islamic theologian is, hey. If we’re

957
01:00:17.185 –> 01:00:20.865
supposedly the last word from the Messiah, if we’re the if

958
01:00:20.865 –> 01:00:24.464
we’re supposedly the the final word, Mohammed was the final

959
01:00:24.464 –> 01:00:27.605
prophet, well, why is

960
01:00:28.359 –> 01:00:32.200
the 3rd why are we why why do our nations occupy the

961
01:00:32.200 –> 01:00:36.040
3rd world? Why are we in the lowest strata in every

962
01:00:36.040 –> 01:00:39.640
category across the across the world? And

963
01:00:39.640 –> 01:00:43.075
so so I so

964
01:00:43.375 –> 01:00:47.055
I I would just encourage readers to to take to

965
01:00:47.055 –> 01:00:50.595
to to zoom back and and think about it this way. Anytime

966
01:00:50.655 –> 01:00:54.175
you’re in a war, which is what this is, when when we’re

967
01:00:54.175 –> 01:00:57.910
talking about the the coming of the kingdom of god, Jesus says the kingdom

968
01:00:57.910 –> 01:01:01.670
of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. So Right. So

969
01:01:01.670 –> 01:01:05.510
there is literally combat, spiritual combat, and

970
01:01:05.510 –> 01:01:09.005
sometimes even physical combat that takes place

971
01:01:09.625 –> 01:01:13.464
over, over the kingdom of God and the the correct

972
01:01:13.464 –> 01:01:16.924
transmission of of the faith once for all delivered for the saints,

973
01:01:17.385 –> 01:01:21.224
as the scripture calls it in the book of Jude, that that that

974
01:01:21.224 –> 01:01:24.990
this this violence is is something

975
01:01:24.990 –> 01:01:28.210
that, that just like in a war,

976
01:01:28.430 –> 01:01:32.110
it’s it’s not always clear in a

977
01:01:32.110 –> 01:01:35.730
local place what’s happening across a theater.

978
01:01:35.870 –> 01:01:39.505
Okay? So let me give you an example. In in June 19 or,

979
01:01:39.745 –> 01:01:43.585
no. Let’s see. It would have been, probably, December

980
01:01:43.585 –> 01:01:47.025
1944, I think. Late late 1944, the Battle of the

981
01:01:47.025 –> 01:01:50.785
Bulge. Yeah. So you had the Western allies who were sweeping

982
01:01:50.785 –> 01:01:54.440
across Europe. But in this one pocket, right, it looked really

983
01:01:54.440 –> 01:01:58.200
bad. It looked like the Germans might break through and be able

984
01:01:58.200 –> 01:02:01.640
to flank the Americans or the Allied forces. And

985
01:02:01.640 –> 01:02:05.400
so so even though, yeah, the the Allies had been winning the

986
01:02:05.400 –> 01:02:08.984
war, in that one place, it looked like

987
01:02:08.984 –> 01:02:12.665
hell. Okay? And so so it’s the same thing

988
01:02:12.665 –> 01:02:16.505
here. Like, in in America, in 21st century America or maybe

989
01:02:16.505 –> 01:02:20.210
in Europe, it looks bleak. It looks very bad. But

990
01:02:20.210 –> 01:02:23.730
in other parts of the world, on other parts of the front, if you will,

991
01:02:23.730 –> 01:02:27.570
the the where the war is being fought, it’s way more positive.

992
01:02:27.570 –> 01:02:31.185
It’s more positive than it’s been in centuries. And Well, when it’s

993
01:02:31.425 –> 01:02:34.705
So and so go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting not to interrupt,

994
01:02:34.705 –> 01:02:38.225
but it’s interesting that you mentioned this because Vodie Bachman was

995
01:02:38.225 –> 01:02:41.985
interviewed by Doug Wilson, earlier this year. And Vodie

996
01:02:41.985 –> 01:02:45.510
Bachman, if you don’t know who that is, you can Google him. But, you know,

997
01:02:45.510 –> 01:02:48.970
he’s running a bunch of basically, a bunch of churches in Nigeria,

998
01:02:50.070 –> 01:02:53.750
who have and the and the Nigerian the country of Nigeria has made a

999
01:02:53.750 –> 01:02:57.270
commitment to being a country that is run on

1000
01:02:57.270 –> 01:03:00.935
Christian principles. Right? And so he’s come over from America as an

1001
01:03:00.935 –> 01:03:04.635
American theologian, African American American theologian coming over,

1002
01:03:05.735 –> 01:03:09.255
take his family to Nigeria, building churches in Nigeria, schools, building a whole

1003
01:03:09.255 –> 01:03:13.070
infrastructure out to support this. Right? He came back, was talking to

1004
01:03:13.070 –> 01:03:15.790
Doug Wilson. And one of the things he said to Doug that was very interesting

1005
01:03:15.790 –> 01:03:19.230
and caught my attention was this. He said, it’s

1006
01:03:19.230 –> 01:03:22.750
interesting observing, and I’m paraphrasing, observing the

1007
01:03:22.750 –> 01:03:26.475
American church from outside America. Because

1008
01:03:26.475 –> 01:03:30.155
when I come here from a country like Nigeria, where there are almost no

1009
01:03:30.155 –> 01:03:33.755
Christian resources, and we’re just building everything from the ground

1010
01:03:33.755 –> 01:03:37.455
up, the level of how far ahead you all are here

1011
01:03:37.835 –> 01:03:41.540
is astounding, and you all don’t appreciate it.

1012
01:03:41.680 –> 01:03:44.580
And he’s saying this as an African American

1013
01:03:45.680 –> 01:03:49.280
pastor, teacher, writer, theologian who

1014
01:03:49.280 –> 01:03:52.720
worked in America for literally decades before

1015
01:03:52.720 –> 01:03:56.315
saying, as my mother would say, bump this and

1016
01:03:56.315 –> 01:04:00.075
moved on moved on to moved on to Nigeria. Right? Because he was

1017
01:04:00.075 –> 01:04:03.855
so frustrated with the lack of forward motion in America.

1018
01:04:04.075 –> 01:04:07.900
And so I think particularly for and and by the way, this also

1019
01:04:07.900 –> 01:04:11.740
is a counterpoint to my point earlier that I made about American Christians not doing

1020
01:04:11.740 –> 01:04:14.880
the necessary work they need to do. This is the counterpoint to that.

1021
01:04:15.420 –> 01:04:17.200
We do have such a large

1022
01:04:20.085 –> 01:04:23.925
pillar of work that has built in a con that

1023
01:04:23.925 –> 01:04:27.065
we have built in a country that was nakedly

1024
01:04:27.285 –> 01:04:30.805
publicly Christian for the

1025
01:04:30.805 –> 01:04:33.945
first, what, a 150, 200 years of its existence.

1026
01:04:35.750 –> 01:04:38.550
Now Doug Wilson would say that we were eating through our seed corn, and we’re

1027
01:04:38.550 –> 01:04:42.230
already at the end of it. And that’s why he’s ringing the bell. But Vodie

1028
01:04:42.230 –> 01:04:45.750
Bachman from a Nigerian spot would look

1029
01:04:45.750 –> 01:04:49.369
and say, no. We haven’t eaten through all the seed corn yet. Not even close.

1030
01:04:50.875 –> 01:04:53.115
So do you so I just wanted to back up that point with what you

1031
01:04:53.115 –> 01:04:56.875
were saying about looking at the fruits of Christianity, rather

1032
01:04:56.875 –> 01:05:00.095
than looking at the form rather than only looking at exclusively

1033
01:05:00.795 –> 01:05:03.915
the the presence of the messiah, the presence of Jesus Christ. So go ahead. I’m

1034
01:05:03.915 –> 01:05:07.120
sorry. Yeah. Well and then I would just say, just to just to kind of

1035
01:05:07.120 –> 01:05:10.960
continue on that vein, is, you know and it it’s

1036
01:05:10.960 –> 01:05:14.660
important to remember that the the work of God

1037
01:05:15.040 –> 01:05:18.655
is accomplished through the saints of God. Right.

1038
01:05:18.655 –> 01:05:22.015
And I think this gets back to one of the things that you were you

1039
01:05:22.015 –> 01:05:25.155
were talking about earlier about, you know,

1040
01:05:26.175 –> 01:05:29.935
a lot of people sidelining themselves and getting out of certain

1041
01:05:30.175 –> 01:05:33.970
avoiding conflicts or or just, saying, you know, I’m

1042
01:05:33.970 –> 01:05:37.410
just waiting for the rapture any day now. Like, no. Like

1043
01:05:37.410 –> 01:05:41.170
like, if if if a society is going

1044
01:05:41.170 –> 01:05:44.529
to be built around, the

1045
01:05:44.529 –> 01:05:47.924
pursuit not of social justice but of actual

1046
01:05:48.704 –> 01:05:52.545
justice described in the old testament, not described

1047
01:05:52.545 –> 01:05:56.224
by Marx that we syncretize then with some version of of

1048
01:05:56.224 –> 01:05:58.885
the scripture that we then just turned it into

1049
01:06:00.240 –> 01:06:03.760
Mark’s light, I guess, or whatever. You know, but

1050
01:06:03.760 –> 01:06:07.440
actual, like like, we we really are trying to bring about

1051
01:06:07.440 –> 01:06:11.280
a society that that of human flourishing under

1052
01:06:11.280 –> 01:06:14.420
the rule of God. That takes courage,

1053
01:06:15.065 –> 01:06:18.845
and it also takes a willingness to confront evil.

1054
01:06:19.545 –> 01:06:23.325
And in many cases, that the ancient world understood that we

1055
01:06:23.385 –> 01:06:26.905
in the west, I think, have largely forgotten. We

1056
01:06:27.385 –> 01:06:31.100
are we willing to die? Are we willing to spill our

1057
01:06:31.100 –> 01:06:34.940
blood, for the advancement of the kingdom of

1058
01:06:34.940 –> 01:06:38.640
god? For and and and and I say that, you know

1059
01:06:39.020 –> 01:06:42.795
you know, and and I I wanna be real clear here because I

1060
01:06:42.795 –> 01:06:46.635
think in to a lot of evangelicals, the only thing

1061
01:06:46.635 –> 01:06:50.474
that really matters is, do people give their souls to

1062
01:06:50.474 –> 01:06:53.994
Christ? In other words, when I preach, if I give an

1063
01:06:53.994 –> 01:06:57.800
altar call, will everyone in here, acknowledge that they’re

1064
01:06:57.800 –> 01:07:01.560
gonna pray this prayer and receive Christ as their savior, and then and then

1065
01:07:01.560 –> 01:07:05.240
their eternal future is secured? Yes or no, and then

1066
01:07:05.240 –> 01:07:08.935
my job is done. Okay? And then I’m just gonna wash my hands of

1067
01:07:08.935 –> 01:07:12.615
the people that haven’t that haven’t prayed the prayer, or maybe I don’t wash my

1068
01:07:12.615 –> 01:07:16.375
hands. Maybe I say, well, I’m gonna double down. Well, that’s fine. But

1069
01:07:16.375 –> 01:07:19.815
it and I call it like a it’s almost like a worship of Billy

1070
01:07:19.815 –> 01:07:23.599
Graham. It’s right. Right. So Billy Graham was the great evangelist who did crusades

1071
01:07:23.599 –> 01:07:26.740
all over the world, and and, you know, I I had a tremendous

1072
01:07:27.119 –> 01:07:30.799
wonderful impact in the world. But but what I

1073
01:07:30.799 –> 01:07:34.559
think Billy did, unfortunately, and I to no fault

1074
01:07:34.559 –> 01:07:37.915
of his own, I think it was people who idolized him

1075
01:07:38.295 –> 01:07:41.595
incorrectly, but they they became obsessed

1076
01:07:42.375 –> 01:07:46.135
with this pray the prayer evangelism, receive

1077
01:07:46.135 –> 01:07:49.575
Jesus into your heart, and then you’re good. You don’t have to do anything

1078
01:07:49.575 –> 01:07:53.290
else. Just hang out until Christ shows up again. Who knows when

1079
01:07:53.290 –> 01:07:57.050
that’ll be, but it’s gonna be really soon. Just trust us. And then and

1080
01:07:57.050 –> 01:08:00.890
then now we wonder, well, why are our institutions terrible? Oh, it’s

1081
01:08:00.890 –> 01:08:04.365
because all the Christians are just they just checked out because, you know, it’s

1082
01:08:04.365 –> 01:08:08.045
it’s all we just have things are gonna get bad enough anyway, and

1083
01:08:08.045 –> 01:08:11.585
then Christ is gonna return. It’s almost like we’ve said,

1084
01:08:12.205 –> 01:08:15.885
instead of Christ coming in glory and

1085
01:08:15.885 –> 01:08:19.649
making his enemies a footstool under his feet, which is what first Corinthians

1086
01:08:19.789 –> 01:08:23.469
15 says. K? Christ will not return until his

1087
01:08:23.469 –> 01:08:27.229
enemies are a footstool under his feet. We’ve said, you know what? No. No.

1088
01:08:27.229 –> 01:08:31.069
No. No. We don’t like that picture. We we prefer the picture

1089
01:08:31.069 –> 01:08:34.585
of the American Embassy in Vietnam. Okay? Get

1090
01:08:34.585 –> 01:08:38.425
everybody up on the rooftop, and we’ll just cling to the helicopters as

1091
01:08:38.425 –> 01:08:42.265
as Jesus comes in with the rapture and just sucks us out and takes us,

1092
01:08:42.265 –> 01:08:45.385
you know, back to heaven and then, you know, then the rest of this world

1093
01:08:45.385 –> 01:08:49.200
can just go to hell and tribulation and all this other mess. That’s not

1094
01:08:49.200 –> 01:08:52.500
the picture that that that the New Testament

1095
01:08:52.800 –> 01:08:56.420
gives. And and I don’t think it’s a hopeful

1096
01:08:56.480 –> 01:09:00.160
picture for people who care about the world in

1097
01:09:00.160 –> 01:09:03.915
which they live and care about what god asked us to do in

1098
01:09:03.915 –> 01:09:07.534
Matthew 28, which was to make disciples of all nations,

1099
01:09:07.995 –> 01:09:11.274
baptizing them in the name of the father, the son, and the holy ghost, teaching

1100
01:09:11.274 –> 01:09:15.120
them to observe all that he commanded. When

1101
01:09:15.120 –> 01:09:18.899
that’s done when that is done, when everyone understands

1102
01:09:19.360 –> 01:09:23.120
what it means to obey god, then the work is done, then Christ

1103
01:09:23.120 –> 01:09:26.500
will return. And we’re not close, so get busy.

1104
01:09:28.255 –> 01:09:31.795
By the way, I am going to go to,

1105
01:09:35.455 –> 01:09:35.955
the

1106
01:09:41.250 –> 01:09:44.790
Gonna reference the passage in Thessalonians

1107
01:09:46.210 –> 01:09:50.050
that, because I don’t wanna I don’t wanna get caught

1108
01:09:50.050 –> 01:09:52.570
up with the rapture. It’s too easy to get caught up with the rapture. No.

1109
01:09:52.689 –> 01:09:56.085
Book of revelations, but I’m going to, I’m gonna reference, 2nd

1110
01:09:56.085 –> 01:09:59.765
Thessalonians chapter 2. Yeah. Read 2nd Thessalonians

1111
01:09:59.765 –> 01:10:03.525
chapter 2, 1 through 12. And you

1112
01:10:03.525 –> 01:10:07.045
will see what he is, talking about with the mystery of

1113
01:10:07.045 –> 01:10:10.590
inequity and, the temple and the day of Christ

1114
01:10:10.730 –> 01:10:13.389
and the falling away and the man of sin.

1115
01:10:17.929 –> 01:10:20.809
I want let’s let’s talk a little bit because we didn’t answer the question. You

1116
01:10:20.809 –> 01:10:24.114
answered my previous question. Now I’m gonna ask, like, another question again. The mark of

1117
01:10:24.114 –> 01:10:27.235
the beast. Right? So the beast is referred to a interpolation. So let’s talk a

1118
01:10:27.235 –> 01:10:29.795
little bit about the beast. Let’s do a couple minutes on that. And then I

1119
01:10:29.795 –> 01:10:33.235
wanna talk about the Scofield bible of dispensationalism and the power of

1120
01:10:33.235 –> 01:10:36.915
dispensationalists in the state department in the 19 forties after World

1121
01:10:36.915 –> 01:10:40.560
War 2. So oh oh, yes. Oh, I wanna get you on a oh, I

1122
01:10:40.560 –> 01:10:44.080
wanna I wanna get us on record talking about that because if there’s anything that’s

1123
01:10:44.080 –> 01:10:47.920
guaranteed to get us banned hammered from somewhere, it’s gonna be that. So let’s just

1124
01:10:47.920 –> 01:10:50.800
go full. Let’s just go, hey. We already talked about the book of relations. We’re

1125
01:10:50.800 –> 01:10:53.199
talking about the bible. We said the name of Jesus several times. I’m ready to

1126
01:10:53.199 –> 01:10:57.015
go get banned hammered. It’s fine. This is why we don’t have sponsors

1127
01:10:57.015 –> 01:10:58.955
on this show. I can do what I want.

1128
01:11:00.455 –> 01:11:03.995
Alright. So, revelation,

1129
01:11:04.455 –> 01:11:07.255
revelation 13. Right? You know, the beast, the,

1130
01:11:08.150 –> 01:11:11.829
the mark, the number that is his name, not buying, not

1131
01:11:11.829 –> 01:11:15.590
selling. I mean, people read this Christian and non Christian

1132
01:11:15.590 –> 01:11:19.349
alike, and, their blood runs cold. Right? You know,

1133
01:11:19.349 –> 01:11:21.670
the ability to buy and sell is the,

1134
01:11:23.364 –> 01:11:27.205
well, we saw this with COVID, the ability to buy and sell, the ability to

1135
01:11:27.205 –> 01:11:30.824
have free, free movement,

1136
01:11:31.844 –> 01:11:35.605
across boundaries and borders, the ability to

1137
01:11:35.605 –> 01:11:39.230
basically and you and I talked about this in a previous episode, put Caesar

1138
01:11:39.230 –> 01:11:42.989
back in the box, right, and tell Caesar no, which by the way we uniquely

1139
01:11:42.989 –> 01:11:46.510
have. You made this point on that episode. We uniquely have that in the United

1140
01:11:46.510 –> 01:11:49.090
States versus other countries because we live under a republic,

1141
01:11:50.935 –> 01:11:54.235
ostensibly or should be a biblical republic, but we live under a republic

1142
01:11:54.375 –> 01:11:57.895
nonetheless. So we

1143
01:11:57.895 –> 01:12:01.435
have certain benefits that other people in other countries don’t have.

1144
01:12:01.575 –> 01:12:03.435
When American Christians read

1145
01:12:05.160 –> 01:12:08.680
chapter 13 of the book of Revelation, their blood runs cold, and then they’re running

1146
01:12:08.680 –> 01:12:12.040
around looking for the beast everywhere. Mhmm. What was John talking

1147
01:12:12.040 –> 01:12:15.800
about here? Who is the beast? What does

1148
01:12:15.800 –> 01:12:19.465
this mean? And, again, this book was written in 80, you know, 66 to 80

1149
01:12:19.465 –> 01:12:23.225
70, so we’re talking about the fall of Jerusalem as well during a time

1150
01:12:23.225 –> 01:12:27.065
of Roman persecution. So go go ahead. So this was one of

1151
01:12:27.065 –> 01:12:30.665
the parts that I love when, help it really helped me

1152
01:12:30.665 –> 01:12:33.065
understand some things that that

1153
01:12:34.290 –> 01:12:37.809
Doug just explained it very well, I I thought. So,

1154
01:12:37.809 –> 01:12:40.949
again, Doug is not coming at it from a premillennial

1155
01:12:41.570 –> 01:12:45.409
dispensationalist understanding. So that if you’re coming

1156
01:12:45.409 –> 01:12:49.255
at it from that perspective, what I’m about to say is

1157
01:12:49.255 –> 01:12:53.035
you’re just gonna be like, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Okay? So

1158
01:12:53.495 –> 01:12:56.855
so that being said, the beast is the

1159
01:12:56.855 –> 01:13:00.615
Roman Empire. So, again, as as a as a

1160
01:13:00.615 –> 01:13:04.210
predatorist, as a postmillennial predatorist, we’re reading this book.

1161
01:13:04.210 –> 01:13:07.830
These events took place in the writer’s future,

1162
01:13:09.250 –> 01:13:12.310
but in our past. Okay?

1163
01:13:12.610 –> 01:13:16.305
So so and it’s so he wrote it about things

1164
01:13:16.305 –> 01:13:19.765
that must happen in the near future, not in the distant future.

1165
01:13:20.225 –> 01:13:24.065
We we take the writer of of of Revelation at his word. He

1166
01:13:24.065 –> 01:13:27.585
said it was the near future. So he’s he’s talking about the

1167
01:13:27.585 –> 01:13:31.400
fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. So so when he’s talking

1168
01:13:31.400 –> 01:13:34.840
about the beast with 7 heads, the 7

1169
01:13:34.840 –> 01:13:37.740
hills, right, I mean, that that that would have been like

1170
01:13:38.280 –> 01:13:41.340
us saying, the big easy.

1171
01:13:41.960 –> 01:13:45.415
Right? We all know we’re talking about New Orleans.

1172
01:13:45.715 –> 01:13:49.395
That if we’re talking about the the city of brotherly love,

1173
01:13:49.395 –> 01:13:53.155
everybody knows we’re talking about Philadelphia. Okay? The big b. We’re talking about Dallas.

1174
01:13:53.155 –> 01:13:56.995
Right? So so when he says 7 Hills, well, he’s talking about

1175
01:13:56.995 –> 01:14:00.215
the beast and and he’s everybody knows he’s talking about Rome.

1176
01:14:00.660 –> 01:14:04.100
So and that would have just been common understanding. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He was talking

1177
01:14:04.100 –> 01:14:07.640
about Rome. So so Rome was the beast, the 7 heads,

1178
01:14:07.940 –> 01:14:11.160
the 7 emperors. I believe is this the passage,

1179
01:14:12.100 –> 01:14:15.355
let me see if I can get back to it, where he says he’s talking

1180
01:14:15.355 –> 01:14:18.815
about the the kings or the the heads of the beast.

1181
01:14:19.114 –> 01:14:22.875
Yes. And he says I can’t remember if it’s here

1182
01:14:22.875 –> 01:14:26.715
or later in the book where he says, 5 of

1183
01:14:26.715 –> 01:14:30.430
them were, one is, one is now, and one will

1184
01:14:30.430 –> 01:14:34.110
be. So that the 6th he’s

1185
01:14:34.110 –> 01:14:37.790
talking about the 6th ahead in the iteration is

1186
01:14:37.950 –> 01:14:41.390
it is is who’s in charge when this book is being written?

1187
01:14:41.390 –> 01:14:45.035
Well, that is Nero. K? That’s Nero

1188
01:14:45.975 –> 01:14:49.415
who caused a great persecution to come upon the

1189
01:14:49.415 –> 01:14:52.074
Christians, to come upon the,

1190
01:14:53.574 –> 01:14:57.360
the the the the woman who had the child.

1191
01:14:57.360 –> 01:15:01.040
Right? So that’s the church, represents the church. Right?

1192
01:15:01.040 –> 01:15:04.400
Not that she had Christ, but but that’s the the the

1193
01:15:04.400 –> 01:15:08.240
pure, the pure followers of God, the

1194
01:15:08.240 –> 01:15:11.935
ones who didn’t defile themselves with, with

1195
01:15:11.935 –> 01:15:15.615
idolatry and and and debauchery and all those false idol

1196
01:15:15.615 –> 01:15:18.915
worship. But the true the true line of Christ,

1197
01:15:19.535 –> 01:15:22.975
that those faithful Jews, they are the ones who gave birth to the

1198
01:15:22.975 –> 01:15:26.420
Messiah and and then and the church begins from there.

1199
01:15:26.420 –> 01:15:30.020
Now the the mark of the beast the thing that I loved about what

1200
01:15:30.020 –> 01:15:33.480
what how Doug described the mark of the beast was he said it’s a numeric

1201
01:15:33.540 –> 01:15:37.320
play on words to help you to that basically

1202
01:15:37.540 –> 01:15:41.105
would hide the fact that he was talking about Nero.

1203
01:15:41.485 –> 01:15:44.865
And there’s some and I didn’t I didn’t, quite I don’t quite remember

1204
01:15:44.925 –> 01:15:48.605
how, but there’s some mnemonic and and the way

1205
01:15:48.605 –> 01:15:52.285
that they that Mhmm. That Jews would understand and and I

1206
01:15:52.285 –> 01:15:54.065
say it’s Jews. It’s not Jews. It’s,

1207
01:15:56.290 –> 01:15:59.570
I can’t remember if it’s Hebrew or Latin or no. It wouldn’t have been Latin.

1208
01:15:59.570 –> 01:16:03.010
Maybe Hebrew or Greek or something. I can’t remember which one Yeah.

1209
01:16:03.090 –> 01:16:06.930
Where each value each the letter of each person’s name

1210
01:16:06.930 –> 01:16:10.755
would be assigned a numeric value. And so

1211
01:16:10.755 –> 01:16:14.135
every word so, like, let’s take my name for instance,

1212
01:16:14.195 –> 01:16:18.035
Brian. So okay. A b. B is numb

1213
01:16:18.195 –> 01:16:21.955
is given 2. Okay? So b r is 2. B

1214
01:16:21.955 –> 01:16:25.561
b r I no. I’m saying, a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, h,

1215
01:16:25.561 –> 01:16:25.587
h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h,

1216
01:16:25.587 –> 01:16:25.612
h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h,

1217
01:16:25.612 –> 01:16:25.636
h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h, h,

1218
01:16:25.636 –> 01:16:27.100
h, h, h, h, h, h, h

1219
01:16:38.715 –> 01:16:42.554
Well, that’s Nero’s full name, his his his long his

1220
01:16:42.554 –> 01:16:45.295
long name. So it was a way of saying,

1221
01:16:46.315 –> 01:16:50.155
it it’s a way of giving the reader clues as to where we are on

1222
01:16:50.155 –> 01:16:53.940
the time line of history. What’s also interesting about this

1223
01:16:53.940 –> 01:16:57.160
is, you know, it talks about on your forehead or on your hand.

1224
01:16:58.100 –> 01:17:01.080
It later on in the book, in the in the commentary,

1225
01:17:02.100 –> 01:17:05.400
you’ll read where the saints of God

1226
01:17:06.065 –> 01:17:09.765
have their heavenly father’s name written on their head.

1227
01:17:09.905 –> 01:17:13.425
Mhmm. Okay? So instead of the mark of the beast, they have the mark of

1228
01:17:13.425 –> 01:17:17.265
their father. Mhmm. K? And so so everyone is gonna

1229
01:17:17.265 –> 01:17:20.970
have a mark on their forehead. Everyone’s gonna have a mark on their hand.

1230
01:17:21.050 –> 01:17:24.570
The question is whose. Is it going to be,

1231
01:17:24.810 –> 01:17:28.090
the the one you worship? It it it and, well, it’s gonna be the person

1232
01:17:28.090 –> 01:17:31.630
you worship, either either a false idol or the one true and living god.

1233
01:17:31.930 –> 01:17:35.715
And so so when when we get into this

1234
01:17:35.715 –> 01:17:39.555
this premillennial dispensationalism and we I feel like

1235
01:17:39.555 –> 01:17:43.335
we’re working too hard to understand the scriptures.

1236
01:17:43.555 –> 01:17:47.235
We’re we’re we’re reading things into them that

1237
01:17:47.235 –> 01:17:50.850
ought not be there. And and when we do that, our

1238
01:17:50.850 –> 01:17:54.690
imaginations run wild. It’s like I mean, we’re looking around,

1239
01:17:54.690 –> 01:17:58.370
you know, every quarter, like, what’s going on? And

1240
01:17:58.370 –> 01:18:01.995
and the truth of the matter is that as a as

1241
01:18:01.995 –> 01:18:05.215
a believer, you don’t have to worry about the mark of the beast.

1242
01:18:05.594 –> 01:18:09.355
You already have the mark of of your your heavenly father on

1243
01:18:09.355 –> 01:18:12.875
your head. You have the mark of your father on your heart, right,

1244
01:18:12.875 –> 01:18:16.690
because because he dwells within you. And that’s the great hope,

1245
01:18:16.690 –> 01:18:20.530
I think, that that we find in in in this scripture and the

1246
01:18:20.530 –> 01:18:24.150
way that that the the postmillennialists understand

1247
01:18:25.010 –> 01:18:28.690
this reading of the text. Okay? So so I would just say

1248
01:18:29.625 –> 01:18:33.465
I would say put the fear aside when it comes to the mark of the

1249
01:18:33.465 –> 01:18:37.305
beast. If you know Christ, you don’t have to worry about that. There there may

1250
01:18:37.305 –> 01:18:40.985
be other marks. Right? There may be there may come a day when when a

1251
01:18:40.985 –> 01:18:44.130
when a state tries to put a mark on you or tries to, you know,

1252
01:18:44.130 –> 01:18:47.170
like the Nazis tried to mark the Jews or who knows what. I mean, that’s

1253
01:18:47.170 –> 01:18:50.690
happened before. But but for the the true

1254
01:18:50.690 –> 01:18:54.210
believer, the the one who who knows Christ, you’re already

1255
01:18:54.210 –> 01:18:55.590
sealed. You’re already marked.

1256
01:18:58.175 –> 01:19:01.695
So we’ve said it several times here. This is a good time to open the

1257
01:19:01.695 –> 01:19:05.375
door to this. I’m just I’m going full I’m going

1258
01:19:05.375 –> 01:19:08.495
full hog today, end of the year. I’m going I’m going all the way into

1259
01:19:08.495 –> 01:19:11.670
it. So now I’m gonna have the state department. I’m gonna have Victoria Newland chasing

1260
01:19:11.670 –> 01:19:14.330
me around the block along with Robert Kagan. That’s gonna be great.

1261
01:19:16.310 –> 01:19:19.990
Hey. Look. If any feds are listening, may you be blessed by, the

1262
01:19:19.990 –> 01:19:23.130
belief in Jesus Christ, and, be sure to spell my name correctly.

1263
01:19:24.790 –> 01:19:26.250
I want you to come looking for me.

1264
01:19:28.605 –> 01:19:32.445
Okay. So we’ve said this several times. Let’s start

1265
01:19:32.445 –> 01:19:35.645
backwards. So the the version of the bible that I’ve got is the new king

1266
01:19:35.645 –> 01:19:39.405
James version. It’s a bible that my my wife gave me, or not the

1267
01:19:39.405 –> 01:19:42.660
new king James version. I’m sorry. The king James version of the bible. The King

1268
01:19:42.660 –> 01:19:46.360
James version, this version was published by Thomas Nelson.

1269
01:19:47.220 –> 01:19:50.840
I I do like the King James version, primarily

1270
01:19:51.060 –> 01:19:54.200
because one of the main reasons I like it is because, yes, of the language,

1271
01:19:54.340 –> 01:19:57.935
but also because it has the, the

1272
01:19:57.935 –> 01:20:01.775
epistle the epistle dedicatory at the beginning of it that

1273
01:20:01.775 –> 01:20:05.614
opens up, for the King James version, to the most high and mighty

1274
01:20:05.614 –> 01:20:09.074
prince James, by the grace of God, king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland,

1275
01:20:09.215 –> 01:20:12.790
defender of the faith, the translators of the Bible wish grace, mercy, and

1276
01:20:12.790 –> 01:20:16.310
peace through Jesus Christ, our lord, and then they just go into why they

1277
01:20:16.310 –> 01:20:18.890
created this Bible. I love that. I love that opening. Right?

1278
01:20:21.190 –> 01:20:25.035
1611, by the way, I believe was when the King James bible

1279
01:20:25.035 –> 01:20:28.875
was, was finally published. And, yes, was King James using it to do

1280
01:20:28.875 –> 01:20:32.395
some shady things that were very much, temporal and

1281
01:20:32.395 –> 01:20:35.695
probably sinful? Sharp. Just like every other

1282
01:20:38.160 –> 01:20:41.620
prince that you have ever met in your life.

1283
01:20:42.000 –> 01:20:44.900
Alright. So I’ve got the king James Bible. Right?

1284
01:20:45.680 –> 01:20:49.440
Fast forward a few centuries, maybe a couple

1285
01:20:49.440 –> 01:20:53.185
millennia, and you run across something called the Scofield Bible.

1286
01:20:53.485 –> 01:20:57.105
So let’s start with this. The Scofield

1287
01:20:57.324 –> 01:21:01.005
Bible walk me

1288
01:21:01.005 –> 01:21:04.784
through why that Bible was so popular, why it gained

1289
01:21:04.844 –> 01:21:08.470
such popularity among folks, and

1290
01:21:08.470 –> 01:21:12.230
then walk me through these terms that we’ve been using sort of

1291
01:21:12.230 –> 01:21:15.130
as if people just know what they are, premillennial,

1292
01:21:15.910 –> 01:21:19.450
millennial, postmillennial, predatorist, and then finally,

1293
01:21:19.510 –> 01:21:23.125
dispensationalist. So walk walk us through those terms and and

1294
01:21:23.125 –> 01:21:26.645
how they tie into the Scofield Bible. So let’s start with the Scofield

1295
01:21:26.645 –> 01:21:30.405
Bible. Why did it gain such popularity? Who created it? What was the

1296
01:21:30.405 –> 01:21:34.250
point of it? And, and sort of how has it embedded

1297
01:21:34.250 –> 01:21:37.950
itself into, American Christian evangelical

1298
01:21:38.170 –> 01:21:41.930
culture to such a degree? Yeah. Well, the the

1299
01:21:41.930 –> 01:21:45.450
Scofield Bible was not a,

1300
01:21:46.010 –> 01:21:49.735
it was a Bible that in

1301
01:21:49.974 –> 01:21:52.715
it was a Bible that was published in which

1302
01:21:53.735 –> 01:21:56.554
was also written a commentary

1303
01:21:57.494 –> 01:22:01.175
by a gentleman, I can’t remember his first name, by the last name of

1304
01:22:01.175 –> 01:22:04.370
Scofield. And and mister Scofield

1305
01:22:04.830 –> 01:22:07.090
was had

1306
01:22:08.830 –> 01:22:11.970
imbibed, I guess, is a a a good term,

1307
01:22:12.430 –> 01:22:15.330
this this dispensationalist understanding

1308
01:22:15.790 –> 01:22:19.535
of the end times, or of of the rev of

1309
01:22:19.535 –> 01:22:23.295
understanding eschatology or the revelation, the the study of

1310
01:22:23.295 –> 01:22:26.895
of the end times, the study of the end of the world. And so so

1311
01:22:26.895 –> 01:22:30.390
as he had kinda taken this in, he wrote a

1312
01:22:30.390 –> 01:22:33.990
commentary based on the principles that he learned about this

1313
01:22:33.990 –> 01:22:37.750
dispensationalist theology. By the way, his his first name

1314
01:22:37.750 –> 01:22:41.510
was Cyrus. It was Cyrus Ingersoll Schofield. Right. According

1315
01:22:41.510 –> 01:22:45.295
to Wikipedia. Yep. Born 18 43 in Clinton, Michigan,

1316
01:22:45.835 –> 01:22:49.515
died July 24, 1921 in New York, New

1317
01:22:49.515 –> 01:22:52.795
York. He, was a,

1318
01:22:53.035 –> 01:22:56.790
American according to Wikipedia, an American theologian, minister, and writer

1319
01:22:56.790 –> 01:23:00.570
whose best selling annotated bible popularized futurism and dispensationalism

1320
01:23:00.949 –> 01:23:04.550
among fundamentalist Christians. Go ahead. Keep going. Yep. Well

1321
01:23:04.710 –> 01:23:08.515
and and you gotta kinda understand what was also happening at this point in

1322
01:23:08.515 –> 01:23:11.975
American Christianity that sort of allowed dispensationalism

1323
01:23:12.515 –> 01:23:16.275
to sort of catch fire here. So you you had all

1324
01:23:16.275 –> 01:23:18.775
of the the German deconstructionists.

1325
01:23:20.195 –> 01:23:24.040
All of their work was starting to make its way through the universities

1326
01:23:24.500 –> 01:23:28.340
here in America. And so and that all happened right around the

1327
01:23:28.340 –> 01:23:31.940
turn of of the century. So you had, you

1328
01:23:31.940 –> 01:23:35.635
had what, Jay Gresham Machen Machen

1329
01:23:35.635 –> 01:23:39.235
called a a downgrade. Right? There were lots of there there were

1330
01:23:39.235 –> 01:23:43.075
lots of theological at at our at all our seminaries, our

1331
01:23:43.075 –> 01:23:45.975
our our prestige our prestigious,

1332
01:23:46.515 –> 01:23:50.150
flagship seminaries, Princeton, Harvard, all these places where that have

1333
01:23:50.150 –> 01:23:52.890
been stalwarts of protestant

1334
01:23:53.830 –> 01:23:57.430
evangelicalism and and orthodoxy were now

1335
01:23:57.430 –> 01:24:01.270
calling into question very basic things about very, very,

1336
01:24:01.270 –> 01:24:04.625
very fundamental things about the Christian

1337
01:24:04.684 –> 01:24:08.525
faith. And so so you had a a

1338
01:24:08.525 –> 01:24:12.284
lot of people who were reacting to that. A lot

1339
01:24:12.284 –> 01:24:15.824
of people, and they became called fundamentalist. They wanted to get back to the fundamentals.

1340
01:24:16.280 –> 01:24:19.720
And and then there was this sort of, well, man, things are they’re getting worse

1341
01:24:19.720 –> 01:24:23.100
all of a sudden. They’re not getting better. Well, that’s what dispensationalism

1342
01:24:23.560 –> 01:24:27.160
teaches. Dispensationalism must it it it it it

1343
01:24:27.160 –> 01:24:30.300
must be true or it must be right. And so there was this,

1344
01:24:31.075 –> 01:24:34.915
whereas before, the vast majority of Christendom had been postmillennial and had

1345
01:24:34.915 –> 01:24:38.595
an understanding much like the one Doug Wilson describes in his

1346
01:24:38.595 –> 01:24:42.295
book, under that type of understanding of Revelation, then

1347
01:24:42.530 –> 01:24:46.070
then this the door was opened to this alternate understanding,

1348
01:24:46.210 –> 01:24:49.970
this dispensationalist understanding. And and, oh,

1349
01:24:49.970 –> 01:24:53.810
by the way, a a major publishing house in Chicago, I think it

1350
01:24:53.810 –> 01:24:57.255
was I can’t remember who published the book, or maybe it was Booty Press. I’m

1351
01:24:57.255 –> 01:25:01.095
not sure. But I believe it came out of Chicago. All of a sudden,

1352
01:25:01.095 –> 01:25:04.855
this this this Bible gets published. It’s sold in lots of different

1353
01:25:04.855 –> 01:25:08.455
bookstores, and people the average American is sitting here

1354
01:25:08.455 –> 01:25:12.300
reading their Schofield Bible, and they’re like, well, look. The Bible says

1355
01:25:12.380 –> 01:25:16.220
well, it’s not the Bible. It’s the commentary that’s embedded in your

1356
01:25:16.220 –> 01:25:19.900
Bible, but but it’s just it’s right there. It’s and it’s an

1357
01:25:19.900 –> 01:25:23.565
easy way to understand the the scripture. And

1358
01:25:23.565 –> 01:25:27.325
so people just they just start believing it, and it and it takes hold.

1359
01:25:27.325 –> 01:25:31.085
It takes root in in the culture. Well, this

1360
01:25:31.085 –> 01:25:34.445
bible was also published right around or at least had at least a little bit

1361
01:25:34.445 –> 01:25:38.205
of weight during the time when the Scopes monkey trial was taking place in

1362
01:25:38.205 –> 01:25:41.559
1925. Absolutely. So Scofield died in 21.

1363
01:25:42.099 –> 01:25:45.780
The Scopes monkey trial took place, which was if you don’t know what that is,

1364
01:25:45.780 –> 01:25:49.300
it was basically the trial that put the

1365
01:25:49.300 –> 01:25:53.059
kibosh on teaching any alternatives to the theories of Charles

1366
01:25:53.059 –> 01:25:56.505
Darwin in the public school system. And

1367
01:25:56.505 –> 01:25:58.905
so the battle at a

1368
01:26:01.305 –> 01:26:03.645
the battle moved the battle between

1369
01:26:04.905 –> 01:26:08.090
European you talk about the Germans. European

1370
01:26:08.869 –> 01:26:12.250
not even postmodern. European Nietzsche nihilistic thinking

1371
01:26:13.190 –> 01:26:16.650
had versus versus Christian

1372
01:26:16.790 –> 01:26:20.469
worldview thinking with the Scopes monkey trial had

1373
01:26:20.469 –> 01:26:24.275
finally descended into middle class American consciousness.

1374
01:26:25.135 –> 01:26:27.795
Yep. And the most middle class Americans

1375
01:26:28.575 –> 01:26:32.335
probably, particularly those and people will always nail the

1376
01:26:32.335 –> 01:26:35.800
south for this, but it was all over the United States, would

1377
01:26:35.800 –> 01:26:38.940
probably have had a copy of the Schofield

1378
01:26:39.160 –> 01:26:42.840
reference bible in their house or had access to

1379
01:26:42.840 –> 01:26:46.380
it or had pastors in their church that had been taught

1380
01:26:47.364 –> 01:26:50.965
in or no. Well well, yeah, who had been taught in

1381
01:26:50.965 –> 01:26:54.585
seminary or at least had heard because, you

1382
01:26:55.925 –> 01:26:59.670
know, you’re talking about these seminaries being in opposition to this this

1383
01:26:59.670 –> 01:27:02.969
Nietzschean worldview that’s coming down from these German Europeans.

1384
01:27:03.830 –> 01:27:07.670
Or I’m sorry, not German Europeans, for these Germans. This battle is happening

1385
01:27:07.670 –> 01:27:11.290
out at a middle class level in America. Right? And so

1386
01:27:12.125 –> 01:27:15.725
the thought I would think would be not to throw you off your point, but

1387
01:27:15.725 –> 01:27:19.245
I would think the thought would be around the Scofield Bible. If we can just

1388
01:27:19.245 –> 01:27:22.685
embed this thought about the book of

1389
01:27:22.685 –> 01:27:26.500
revelations or this interpretation of dispensational is around the book

1390
01:27:26.500 –> 01:27:29.880
of revelations so that we can somehow counter this modernist

1391
01:27:30.179 –> 01:27:33.540
move towards believing that we all came from monkeys and that everything’s a 1000000 year

1392
01:27:33.699 –> 01:27:37.380
1,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 of years old and that we are no more than dust in

1393
01:27:37.380 –> 01:27:41.025
the universe. Right? That was sort of the larger theological slash

1394
01:27:41.025 –> 01:27:44.865
philosophical battle, the spiritual battle probably that was really going on, right, during that

1395
01:27:44.865 –> 01:27:48.625
time. Because it’s interesting to me how Schofield Schofield’s death and then

1396
01:27:48.625 –> 01:27:52.179
the Scopes monkey trial all occur within, like, 4 years of each other. Yeah. I

1397
01:27:52.179 –> 01:27:55.940
don’t think that’s accidental. They I don’t I don’t think that’s accidental at all. Right.

1398
01:27:55.940 –> 01:27:59.139
Yeah. And you had Clarence Darrow with winning William Jennings Brian. And by the way,

1399
01:27:59.139 –> 01:28:02.679
I didn’t know this about Scofield. I was just looking him up on Wikipedia. Apparently,

1400
01:28:03.539 –> 01:28:07.095
he also served in the civil war, as did

1401
01:28:07.095 –> 01:28:10.875
many men of his generation. I mean, he was born in 18 43. So,

1402
01:28:11.255 –> 01:28:14.615
that that that tracks, you know, he would have been, like, 16 or 17 when

1403
01:28:14.615 –> 01:28:17.835
the when the civil war started. Okay.

1404
01:28:20.510 –> 01:28:23.969
So you’ve got these dynamics, right, going on.

1405
01:28:25.070 –> 01:28:28.670
You’ve got the Scofield reference bible, which was

1406
01:28:28.670 –> 01:28:32.305
created as an in opposition to

1407
01:28:32.305 –> 01:28:36.145
these other more secular humanistic explanations for how the

1408
01:28:36.145 –> 01:28:38.005
world should work coming down the pike.

1409
01:28:40.065 –> 01:28:42.945
There’s a couple of other terms that I asked you to explain, which we sort

1410
01:28:42.945 –> 01:28:45.970
of skimmed over, but we’re gonna go back and explain now. So what does it

1411
01:28:45.970 –> 01:28:49.810
mean to be a premillennial? What does it mean to be postmillennial? And

1412
01:28:49.810 –> 01:28:53.170
what is actually dispensational? What does that actually mean? Like, we’ve used that term quite

1413
01:28:53.170 –> 01:28:56.930
a lot. What is dispensationalism? So, and and I’m gonna if if

1414
01:28:56.930 –> 01:29:00.105
there’s somebody out here on the the thing that might be, you know, I might

1415
01:29:00.105 –> 01:29:03.405
I might butcher something. Okay? But I’m gonna give it my best shot here. But,

1416
01:29:04.105 –> 01:29:07.405
it it it’s all about how you understand the millennium,

1417
01:29:07.945 –> 01:29:11.545
k, which let let’s go, let’s see. I

1418
01:29:11.545 –> 01:29:15.239
believe it is chapter yeah.

1419
01:29:15.239 –> 01:29:19.000
Yeah. Chapter 20 of Revelation. K? Okay.

1420
01:29:19.000 –> 01:29:22.460
So so that’s the millennium. That’s the millennial reign

1421
01:29:23.000 –> 01:29:25.579
of Christ. So if you believe

1422
01:29:26.920 –> 01:29:30.655
that that Jesus Christ is returning

1423
01:29:30.875 –> 01:29:34.655
before the millennium. K? You believe he will return.

1424
01:29:34.715 –> 01:29:38.315
So in other words, you read this, and and and I say return. What I

1425
01:29:38.315 –> 01:29:41.995
mean is the final coming of Jesus Christ. Okay? I’m not

1426
01:29:41.995 –> 01:29:45.369
talking about, like, because that’s something else we could get into here in a minute.

1427
01:29:45.369 –> 01:29:48.670
But but let’s talk about the final coming of Jesus

1428
01:29:48.730 –> 01:29:52.409
Christ. Right? So he’s coming he’s coming one more time, and he’s gonna end this

1429
01:29:52.409 –> 01:29:56.110
thing, or he’s gonna he’s gonna wrap it up. Right? If you believe that his

1430
01:29:56.250 –> 01:29:59.555
that his coming is sometime in the future,

1431
01:30:00.095 –> 01:30:03.855
k, and you believe it’s before this this this

1432
01:30:03.855 –> 01:30:07.555
millennial period, you’re what’s called a premillennialist. Alright?

1433
01:30:08.335 –> 01:30:11.555
If you believe that his return

1434
01:30:11.935 –> 01:30:15.610
is after the this this millennium that’s

1435
01:30:15.610 –> 01:30:18.190
described in chapter 20, then you’re a postmillennialist.

1436
01:30:19.130 –> 01:30:22.670
And and and and that’s the problem about this millennium

1437
01:30:22.730 –> 01:30:26.235
is this is the one this is the only place that it’s

1438
01:30:26.235 –> 01:30:29.215
actually named in the whole Bible, like all,

1439
01:30:29.995 –> 01:30:33.594
66 books. This is the only place that it’s mentioned. It’s in chapter

1440
01:30:33.594 –> 01:30:37.215
20 of of Revelation, the very last book.

1441
01:30:37.755 –> 01:30:41.390
And if and so if you if you believe that

1442
01:30:41.850 –> 01:30:45.690
that what that what’s described in chapter 19 of Revelation about the

1443
01:30:45.690 –> 01:30:49.210
the Lord coming, Christ on a white horse, and and on his name,

1444
01:30:49.690 –> 01:30:52.170
he has a robe, and on his thigh is written king of kings and lord

1445
01:30:52.170 –> 01:30:55.770
of lords. Here he comes, and he’s coming in judgment. If you believe that’s

1446
01:30:55.770 –> 01:30:58.965
happening, then then

1447
01:31:01.025 –> 01:31:04.805
then you also don’t believe you believe that

1448
01:31:04.945 –> 01:31:08.625
that the that Babylon isn’t Jerusalem. You believe that it’s

1449
01:31:08.625 –> 01:31:12.440
some evil city or an evil system that has to be overcome

1450
01:31:12.500 –> 01:31:15.860
and and judged. It’s gonna do all these crazy things, and then you have to

1451
01:31:15.860 –> 01:31:19.460
decide, okay. Well, if that’s what that is, well, then who are the 2 prophets?

1452
01:31:19.460 –> 01:31:22.420
Well, we don’t really know. Let’s see if we can put something together. Right? Let’s,

1453
01:31:23.235 –> 01:31:26.515
let’s dig around in the Old Testament, see if we can piece something together out

1454
01:31:26.515 –> 01:31:30.195
of, Amos or Daniel or who knows what. And and it

1455
01:31:30.275 –> 01:31:33.255
if you if you just take a much more straightforward reading,

1456
01:31:34.035 –> 01:31:37.880
and apply the the history of that region at

1457
01:31:37.880 –> 01:31:41.480
that time, the fall of Jerusalem and all the events surrounding that, it

1458
01:31:41.480 –> 01:31:45.320
becomes much easier to interpret the Bible, the this this

1459
01:31:45.320 –> 01:31:48.860
particular story, all the different imagery and allegory that you see here.

1460
01:31:49.335 –> 01:31:52.935
So so I I think the premillennial is

1461
01:31:52.935 –> 01:31:56.555
before a 1,000, post is after a 1,000. Dispensationalist

1462
01:31:57.335 –> 01:32:01.035
gets into, the there are certain dispensations

1463
01:32:02.000 –> 01:32:05.780
of the grace of God. And so you would say that that the dispensation

1464
01:32:06.000 –> 01:32:09.760
of grace ends at such and such time, in in

1465
01:32:09.760 –> 01:32:13.600
the scripture. And, so I hope that that kind of

1466
01:32:13.600 –> 01:32:17.275
explains broad broad broad view of these things that there’s

1467
01:32:17.435 –> 01:32:21.215
they’re very nuanced. Oh, yeah. But yeah.

1468
01:32:21.515 –> 01:32:25.355
Oh, and then there’s one other there’s one other area. So how

1469
01:32:25.355 –> 01:32:29.170
does this all relate to Israel? Because you you mentioned to me

1470
01:32:29.170 –> 01:32:32.530
to me before, and you’re a you’re a veteran of, of our armed

1471
01:32:32.530 –> 01:32:36.210
forces. And, you said something very interesting to me probably

1472
01:32:36.210 –> 01:32:39.190
about maybe about a year ago now in a conversation we were having.

1473
01:32:40.369 –> 01:32:43.485
And you said something that stuck with me. You said there were a lot of

1474
01:32:43.485 –> 01:32:47.025
dispensationalists in the state department during the time of the formation of Israel

1475
01:32:47.485 –> 01:32:49.825
between 19 what was it? 4749.

1476
01:32:51.645 –> 01:32:54.925
And they were the ones that pushed for the creation of Israel, which by the

1477
01:32:54.925 –> 01:32:58.130
way, Gary DeMar, I mentioned him now twice on this podcast. You should go listen

1478
01:32:58.130 –> 01:33:00.950
to his podcast, if you can find it

1479
01:33:01.970 –> 01:33:05.410
at American I mean, so I believe it’s American vision dot org is where he

1480
01:33:05.490 –> 01:33:08.775
where he’s at. Free plug for him. Gary needs all the help he can get.

1481
01:33:09.015 –> 01:33:12.695
By the way, after having been deplatformed by Doug Wilson, which is interesting to me.

1482
01:33:12.695 –> 01:33:16.475
But, anyway Because he went full predatorist. That’s what happened.

1483
01:33:18.135 –> 01:33:21.574
I Gary Demar is amazing. And and Doug actually

1484
01:33:21.574 –> 01:33:25.250
cites Gary, in his book. It gives him, like Oh,

1485
01:33:25.250 –> 01:33:28.850
yeah. It’s like, I love Gary Demar. Gary Gary Demar went full

1486
01:33:28.850 –> 01:33:32.690
predatorist. I’m just telling you. Don’t go full predatorist. So Well, well, but the the

1487
01:33:32.770 –> 01:33:36.370
well, the the temptation is is to go hard in the other direction because so

1488
01:33:36.370 –> 01:33:39.765
many people are just like they just won’t stop.

1489
01:33:39.765 –> 01:33:43.385
Say, I I how Lindsay

1490
01:33:43.765 –> 01:33:47.305
recently passed away, the late great planet earth guy. Right? Yes.

1491
01:33:47.364 –> 01:33:51.140
Yes. And I was telling telling somebody about this book, and

1492
01:33:51.140 –> 01:33:53.940
they didn’t even know who Hal Lindsey was. And I said, oh, you know who

1493
01:33:53.940 –> 01:33:57.380
he is. You just don’t know his name. Yes. That’s

1494
01:33:57.380 –> 01:34:00.120
right. And this is the problem with bad ideas.

1495
01:34:02.260 –> 01:34:05.400
This is why I rail against Nietzsche and Nietzsche and philosophy.

1496
01:34:06.125 –> 01:34:09.885
The bad ideas of Nietzsche are so are buried

1497
01:34:09.885 –> 01:34:13.405
so deep in the subbasement of western thought Yep. That they are

1498
01:34:13.405 –> 01:34:16.465
never questioned or dug up or just

1499
01:34:17.165 –> 01:34:20.800
ex excised to the outer darkness. And the

1500
01:34:20.800 –> 01:34:24.580
ideas of how Lindsay have never been dug up and act well, not never.

1501
01:34:25.199 –> 01:34:28.960
Mhmm. The the excavation work that Gary Demar and a few others are doing

1502
01:34:28.960 –> 01:34:32.260
on the ideas of how Lindsay and Tim LeHaye

1503
01:34:32.880 –> 01:34:34.500
and the Jenkins fellow.

1504
01:34:36.575 –> 01:34:39.615
And by the way, I am not opposed to any of these folks on matters

1505
01:34:39.615 –> 01:34:43.295
of salvation. I think we’re all gonna go to heaven. We’re all gonna be walking

1506
01:34:43.295 –> 01:34:46.815
down those pearly gates. We all believe in Jesus as the son of God, and

1507
01:34:46.815 –> 01:34:50.280
it’s gonna be it’s gonna be really interesting showing up and figuring out what we

1508
01:34:50.280 –> 01:34:53.880
all gotta talk about. I think there’s gonna be some vigorous communion going on at

1509
01:34:53.880 –> 01:34:57.400
the pearly gates, between us and MacArthur and

1510
01:34:57.400 –> 01:35:01.159
everybody else. I I think it’s gonna be a surprise. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t break

1511
01:35:01.159 –> 01:35:04.775
fellowship over this. I but I do think it is important because I

1512
01:35:04.775 –> 01:35:08.615
feel like I I to your point a minute ago, I I feel like the

1513
01:35:08.615 –> 01:35:12.375
reason this matters, it’s not not for people going to heaven or not. I

1514
01:35:12.375 –> 01:35:15.415
feel like it affects the work that we do while we’re here. Or the work

1515
01:35:15.415 –> 01:35:19.150
that we do in the earth. That we earn, honestly, or the the

1516
01:35:19.310 –> 01:35:22.190
yeah. Yeah. The yeah. That’s right. So The work that we do here on earth.

1517
01:35:22.190 –> 01:35:25.790
So, so, anyway, the

1518
01:35:25.790 –> 01:35:29.570
the the state department. Right? The US state department and the creation of Israel.

1519
01:35:29.710 –> 01:35:33.150
One of the points that that Gary makes, and I agree with it, is

1520
01:35:33.150 –> 01:35:36.105
that a fully thought out

1521
01:35:38.885 –> 01:35:42.505
postmillennial or even well, not premillennial,

1522
01:35:42.565 –> 01:35:46.245
but millennial or millennial reign or ushering in the millennial reign

1523
01:35:46.245 –> 01:35:49.610
with the philosophy. The thing that it does is it

1524
01:35:49.610 –> 01:35:53.050
allows Christians the permission to

1525
01:35:53.050 –> 01:35:56.730
basically herd Jewish people into one geographic area

1526
01:35:56.730 –> 01:35:59.290
and allow them to be slaughtered because of what it says in the book of

1527
01:35:59.290 –> 01:36:02.855
revelations about, you know, people dying. If you

1528
01:36:02.855 –> 01:36:06.615
interpret the book of revelations through a Scofield bible lens, Scofield

1529
01:36:06.615 –> 01:36:10.295
bible lens plus dispensationalism means there’s a

1530
01:36:10.295 –> 01:36:13.595
pogrom and or a massive holocaust that has to happen

1531
01:36:13.975 –> 01:36:17.700
because the Jews just refuse to be converted. And DeMar rails against this

1532
01:36:17.700 –> 01:36:21.540
all the time. And I don’t see I have yet to see

1533
01:36:21.540 –> 01:36:25.380
a compelling argument in the opposite direction against how he is

1534
01:36:25.380 –> 01:36:29.175
interpreting that line of thinking. Mhmm. And one of

1535
01:36:29.175 –> 01:36:32.054
the things you said to me, like I said, was that there were a lot

1536
01:36:32.054 –> 01:36:35.415
of dispensationalists in the state department who basically pushed for

1537
01:36:35.415 –> 01:36:39.255
Israel’s creation as a state. Now I think Israel would have been created as

1538
01:36:39.255 –> 01:36:43.014
a state anyway. I don’t think that you get away with the

1539
01:36:43.094 –> 01:36:46.910
what happened after the Nuremberg trials without giving Israel a

1540
01:36:46.910 –> 01:36:49.650
state. And, yes, there’s an argument that maybe maybe

1541
01:36:50.910 –> 01:36:54.590
man the man sure not the manchurian. Sorry. Maybe the Japanese should have

1542
01:36:54.590 –> 01:36:58.165
allowed the Chinese to create a larger state because of their war

1543
01:36:58.165 –> 01:37:01.765
crimes after World War 2. But, I mean or during World War

1544
01:37:01.765 –> 01:37:05.285
2, maybe the rape of Nanking, what whatever. You you can make those kinds of

1545
01:37:05.285 –> 01:37:07.765
arguments all over the place. Heck, you can make those kinds of arguments right now

1546
01:37:07.765 –> 01:37:09.385
for the war in the Ukraine with Russia.

1547
01:37:15.400 –> 01:37:19.100
But these ideas have political

1548
01:37:19.880 –> 01:37:23.720
consequences, and you and I have also

1549
01:37:23.720 –> 01:37:26.535
talked about this. Politics is always downstream from theology.

1550
01:37:39.095 –> 01:37:42.330
Revelations, is that gonna be trouble for people politically?

1551
01:37:44.710 –> 01:37:47.690
Well, I I I mean, we’ll see how Providence

1552
01:37:48.390 –> 01:37:51.910
plays this out. But at the, at the end of the

1553
01:37:51.910 –> 01:37:55.645
day, if if you as

1554
01:37:55.645 –> 01:37:59.165
a dispensationalist, you believe that

1555
01:37:59.165 –> 01:38:02.845
Christ cannot come back cannot come

1556
01:38:02.845 –> 01:38:06.685
back until the the nation of Israel

1557
01:38:06.685 –> 01:38:10.500
has been reconstituted. Because there’s all

1558
01:38:10.500 –> 01:38:13.720
of these the way that you’re viewing the imagery

1559
01:38:14.820 –> 01:38:18.420
of the, of the text, you’re

1560
01:38:18.420 –> 01:38:22.040
saying that, you know, that that the this 144,000,

1561
01:38:22.740 –> 01:38:26.434
that this is actually gonna be the next, the reconstituted Israel, and

1562
01:38:26.434 –> 01:38:29.974
it’ll be this generation that has the, you know,

1563
01:38:30.355 –> 01:38:34.034
have all these things come to pass, and and then and then Christ

1564
01:38:34.034 –> 01:38:37.574
will return within that, time frame. I mean,

1565
01:38:37.760 –> 01:38:41.120
there was a book so the nation of Israel was constituted and

1566
01:38:41.120 –> 01:38:44.800
reconstituted in 1948. There the a

1567
01:38:44.800 –> 01:38:48.480
generation, a biblical generation is is 40 years is

1568
01:38:48.480 –> 01:38:52.175
considered 40 years. So I can remember, as a kid,

1569
01:38:52.175 –> 01:38:55.934
there was a book that came out, 88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will

1570
01:38:55.934 –> 01:38:59.614
Be in 1988. K? Now that,

1571
01:38:59.855 –> 01:39:02.594
that book didn’t go over very well for obvious reasons,

1572
01:39:03.330 –> 01:39:06.150
But but there’s this obsession

1573
01:39:07.090 –> 01:39:10.729
that, oh, the rapture is just right around the corner. Mhmm. And and so

1574
01:39:10.849 –> 01:39:14.290
well, now that that that didn’t happen. So they said, oh, maybe it’ll be when

1575
01:39:14.290 –> 01:39:17.994
the last living person, who who was alive

1576
01:39:18.054 –> 01:39:21.815
in 1948 will you know, before they die, then

1577
01:39:21.815 –> 01:39:25.655
that’s when Christ will return. Right? Well, guys, I’m telling you, the clock’s ticking. Okay?

1578
01:39:25.655 –> 01:39:28.695
I don’t know I don’t know when that person maybe they’re gonna die in, you

1579
01:39:28.695 –> 01:39:32.454
know, 19 or 2052 or something. You know?

1580
01:39:32.454 –> 01:39:36.050
But but who knows when it’ll be? But the the point of of

1581
01:39:36.050 –> 01:39:39.730
that is, that

1582
01:39:39.730 –> 01:39:41.910
that the understanding, right, that

1583
01:39:43.970 –> 01:39:47.750
that Israel has to be reconstituted before the coming the same coming of Christ,

1584
01:39:48.205 –> 01:39:52.045
that that’s a very strong theological argument. And and

1585
01:39:52.045 –> 01:39:55.725
I again, I I’m not saying that that the the nation of

1586
01:39:55.725 –> 01:39:59.405
Israel should not have been reconstituted. I think it it should have, but

1587
01:39:59.405 –> 01:40:03.005
not for those reasons. Mhmm. And I think it I I think

1588
01:40:03.005 –> 01:40:06.280
that there were people who were making that call

1589
01:40:07.460 –> 01:40:11.139
who, were thinking in their minds, I’m

1590
01:40:11.139 –> 01:40:14.920
gonna usher in the return of Christ as if we’re in control.

1591
01:40:15.380 –> 01:40:19.165
Right. As if we really we really are calling the shots on

1592
01:40:19.165 –> 01:40:22.765
this thing, and we really can make God do something or not do

1593
01:40:22.765 –> 01:40:26.225
something. Yeah. So, anyway, I just

1594
01:40:27.005 –> 01:40:30.829
I I believe it I believe it’s an unfortunate trap that a lot

1595
01:40:30.829 –> 01:40:34.510
of Christians can find themselves in. And and the latest version of this is

1596
01:40:34.510 –> 01:40:38.270
the red heifer. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So you’ve got oh, well, we’ve

1597
01:40:38.270 –> 01:40:41.809
gotta we’ve gotta bring about we gotta bring the red heifer back. Well,

1598
01:40:41.949 –> 01:40:45.395
okay, if you’re a Christian, okay, if you believe that

1599
01:40:45.395 –> 01:40:49.155
Christ was the last sacrifice, if

1600
01:40:49.155 –> 01:40:52.915
you if you believe Revelation, which which says that the temple

1601
01:40:52.915 –> 01:40:56.595
of God is his people, not not the earthly

1602
01:40:56.595 –> 01:41:00.219
temple, but that you but that as believers, we

1603
01:41:00.219 –> 01:41:03.199
are the temple of god and the sacrifice,

1604
01:41:04.140 –> 01:41:07.900
is no longer required, then why on

1605
01:41:07.900 –> 01:41:11.360
earth would you want to rebuild

1606
01:41:12.140 –> 01:41:14.585
the temple and recreate

1607
01:41:15.845 –> 01:41:19.525
what would be considered an abomination, a a

1608
01:41:19.525 –> 01:41:23.285
a direct assault on what Christ did on the cross and what

1609
01:41:23.285 –> 01:41:27.125
was accomplished in 80, 70 when god said, no. It’s not for

1610
01:41:27.125 –> 01:41:30.969
the Jews. It’s for the whole world, or not only for the Jews. It’s

1611
01:41:30.969 –> 01:41:33.870
not only for the Jews. It’s for the whole world. And here we are,

1612
01:41:34.650 –> 01:41:38.489
coming full circle thinking, oh, we’re gonna usher in the second

1613
01:41:38.489 –> 01:41:42.170
coming of Christ by recreating all these things that were destroyed. And

1614
01:41:42.330 –> 01:41:46.075
Right. It’s just very shortsighted, I think. Well, and you and you get into

1615
01:41:46.235 –> 01:41:49.675
then you get into you talk about Islam already. We have not addressed Islam on

1616
01:41:49.675 –> 01:41:53.515
this podcast, and we will not do so today except

1617
01:41:53.515 –> 01:41:57.030
to say this. The Islam assists,

1618
01:41:57.489 –> 01:42:01.030
particularly the fundamentalist Muslims,

1619
01:42:01.250 –> 01:42:04.929
believe that there will be a 13th imam that will

1620
01:42:04.929 –> 01:42:08.449
show up at the location where the

1621
01:42:08.449 –> 01:42:11.495
current mosque is

1622
01:42:12.195 –> 01:42:16.034
where the old temple was

1623
01:42:16.034 –> 01:42:18.375
rasped to the ground by the Romans.

1624
01:42:20.114 –> 01:42:23.554
And they believe that the coming of such an

1625
01:42:23.554 –> 01:42:25.495
imam will

1626
01:42:27.090 –> 01:42:30.710
set off the conversion or death

1627
01:42:31.650 –> 01:42:35.429
of all the opponents of Allah,

1628
01:42:36.210 –> 01:42:40.025
including not just unbelievers who believe

1629
01:42:40.025 –> 01:42:43.705
in secular materialism, like gays for Gaza, you know,

1630
01:42:43.705 –> 01:42:47.305
those people. Yeah. But also people

1631
01:42:47.305 –> 01:42:50.925
like myself who believe in Jesus. Oh, and the Jews too

1632
01:42:51.230 –> 01:42:54.850
and the and the Buddhists and

1633
01:42:54.909 –> 01:42:58.690
the, the the the the yoga practitioners.

1634
01:42:59.310 –> 01:43:02.989
Anybody who doesn’t believe in Allah and anybody who will

1635
01:43:02.989 –> 01:43:06.715
not convert or die well, no. Anybody who will not convert will die. That’s

1636
01:43:06.715 –> 01:43:10.394
what the 13th imam will do. We’ll eliminate all every single

1637
01:43:10.394 –> 01:43:11.534
last one of the unbelievers.

1638
01:43:14.635 –> 01:43:17.855
Yeah. So they’re looking for

1639
01:43:18.315 –> 01:43:21.590
their own temple to be destroyed

1640
01:43:22.530 –> 01:43:25.510
for the ushering in of their own end of the world

1641
01:43:25.969 –> 01:43:29.810
scenario. And

1642
01:43:29.810 –> 01:43:33.090
this is what you get when you look at a book like the book of

1643
01:43:33.090 –> 01:43:36.935
revelations, whether it’s in the context of, when the man comes around

1644
01:43:36.935 –> 01:43:40.614
by Douglas Wilson or the Scofield reference bible or

1645
01:43:40.614 –> 01:43:44.295
just through the lens of Brian and myself. What you finally

1646
01:43:44.295 –> 01:43:47.494
come to understand, and it’s taken me years to kinda get to this understanding, what

1647
01:43:47.494 –> 01:43:51.320
you finally understand is that everybody, everybody, everybody has

1648
01:43:51.320 –> 01:43:54.699
their own theology. And from the secular material

1649
01:43:54.840 –> 01:43:58.679
atheist, all the way to the person who believes

1650
01:43:58.679 –> 01:44:00.699
in Allah and everything in between,

1651
01:44:02.615 –> 01:44:06.055
Everybody has their own version of an apocalypse. Everybody has their own

1652
01:44:06.055 –> 01:44:09.735
version of the end of all things where all people who

1653
01:44:09.735 –> 01:44:13.335
don’t believe like me will be swept away, and I will

1654
01:44:13.335 –> 01:44:16.989
be, well, taken up to my paradisical

1655
01:44:17.210 –> 01:44:20.830
reward. The only difference is that Christianity

1656
01:44:21.050 –> 01:44:24.590
believes that the paradisical reward is here

1657
01:44:26.410 –> 01:44:30.105
and that we have to work for it here. If you

1658
01:44:30.105 –> 01:44:33.705
read the book of revelations closely, if you read the

1659
01:44:33.705 –> 01:44:37.145
Bible closely, the book of Genesis begins in a garden, but the book of revelations

1660
01:44:37.145 –> 01:44:39.965
ends in a city, a new heaven,

1661
01:44:40.980 –> 01:44:43.560
but also a new earth.

1662
01:44:46.100 –> 01:44:49.480
God, Jesus, and the holy spirit in a Christian

1663
01:44:49.940 –> 01:44:52.760
context cares very much

1664
01:44:53.380 –> 01:44:55.640
about the physical world.

1665
01:44:57.755 –> 01:44:59.375
We would do well to remember that

1666
01:45:01.675 –> 01:45:03.534
as believers in Jesus.

1667
01:45:05.755 –> 01:45:09.195
Alright. Yep. That’s really good. And I one thing I just wanna add to that.

1668
01:45:09.195 –> 01:45:13.030
Like, I love how you stated that. You said, the paradisiacal

1669
01:45:13.650 –> 01:45:17.270
reward. Okay? And we’re not talking about salvation.

1670
01:45:17.730 –> 01:45:20.710
Salvation is accomplished through Christ and his work.

1671
01:45:21.730 –> 01:45:25.170
But there are rewards that are given to the

1672
01:45:25.170 –> 01:45:28.845
faithful for what they do or or, or maybe

1673
01:45:28.845 –> 01:45:32.285
even fail to do as the case may be, with

1674
01:45:32.285 –> 01:45:35.905
the the time, talents, and treasures that god has given them.

1675
01:45:36.205 –> 01:45:39.739
And sometimes working those out,

1676
01:45:40.840 –> 01:45:44.679
requires combat and hard work and

1677
01:45:44.679 –> 01:45:48.199
conflict, and those things are frowned

1678
01:45:48.199 –> 01:45:51.020
upon in in many in most circles, I would say.

1679
01:45:53.085 –> 01:45:56.925
Well, we’re a tiny circle here, me and Brian. So, part of the circle

1680
01:45:56.925 –> 01:45:59.245
here at the end of the year, we’re gonna make the switch because we’re gonna

1681
01:45:59.245 –> 01:46:03.005
close here today. We’re gonna wrap up, this year.

1682
01:46:03.005 –> 01:46:06.765
So this is our last episode of 2024. We covered a lot of books this

1683
01:46:06.765 –> 01:46:10.320
year. We started off with, interestingly enough, the progressive Woodrow

1684
01:46:10.320 –> 01:46:13.920
Wilson, and we talked about his writings. And

1685
01:46:13.920 –> 01:46:16.960
so I I did this book ending on purpose. I wanted to end with the

1686
01:46:16.960 –> 01:46:20.755
book of revelations to kinda counterbalance what we did

1687
01:46:20.755 –> 01:46:24.515
there with Doug with, Doug Wilson, with Woodrow Wilson at the beginning of the year.

1688
01:46:24.515 –> 01:46:28.115
But in between, we also, finally got our arms around,

1689
01:46:28.115 –> 01:46:31.815
particularly with Brian Bagley. We got our arms around what the potential

1690
01:46:31.875 –> 01:46:35.540
geopolitical world could look like, coming up in the next generation

1691
01:46:35.840 –> 01:46:39.520
with The End of the World is Just the Beginning with Peter Zeehan and, The

1692
01:46:39.520 –> 01:46:43.280
Fourth Turning, a book that Brian turned me onto. We also

1693
01:46:43.280 –> 01:46:46.820
talked about later on in the year Huckleberry Finn and the need for

1694
01:46:47.120 –> 01:46:50.905
Mark Twain levels of comedy just to get us through the 4th turning

1695
01:46:50.905 –> 01:46:54.745
because god makes all kinds, including the comedians, because god

1696
01:46:54.745 –> 01:46:58.585
does laugh. God laughs for sure.

1697
01:46:58.585 –> 01:47:01.785
There’s no possible way that I can you, lord, for laughing. There’s no possible way

1698
01:47:01.785 –> 01:47:04.530
that I can laugh and you can laugh and god doesn’t laugh. There’s just no

1699
01:47:04.610 –> 01:47:08.130
possible way that that doesn’t happen. Like, a you know,

1700
01:47:08.130 –> 01:47:11.730
like, you never really hear Jesus about Jesus laughing in the new testament. Like, they

1701
01:47:11.730 –> 01:47:14.770
don’t really record that because they weren’t really looking for that. But you have to

1702
01:47:14.770 –> 01:47:17.969
think that at a certain point, you would’ve just cracked up at something that went

1703
01:47:17.969 –> 01:47:20.905
to the scribes and Pharisees would’ve said before he would’ve, like,

1704
01:47:22.245 –> 01:47:25.605
responded anyway. So I know if I’m given the power to laugh, it has to

1705
01:47:25.605 –> 01:47:26.505
come from somewhere.

1706
01:47:29.685 –> 01:47:33.365
We also covered, with, with with Libby Unger and several

1707
01:47:33.365 –> 01:47:37.060
other special guests, and Brian recorded a piece for that. Our

1708
01:47:37.199 –> 01:47:40.880
100th episode, our 100th episode in regular numbering this year, which is

1709
01:47:40.880 –> 01:47:44.480
kind of an amazing, touchpoint. Most podcasts

1710
01:47:44.719 –> 01:47:48.020
90% of podcasts never get past 100 episodes.

1711
01:47:48.535 –> 01:47:52.135
Once you get past that, then you’re into elite territory regardless of the number of

1712
01:47:52.135 –> 01:47:55.895
downloads you have. And we’re now entering into such

1713
01:47:55.895 –> 01:47:59.115
territory, and you will begin to see some changes around here,

1714
01:48:00.295 –> 01:48:03.930
going into 2025 with the podcast, with the show, not

1715
01:48:04.090 –> 01:48:06.730
not necessarily with our content, but with some of the directions and the setup that

1716
01:48:06.730 –> 01:48:10.410
we’ve got. Interesting things started happening after episode number

1717
01:48:10.410 –> 01:48:14.170
100. We covered lessons from

1718
01:48:14.170 –> 01:48:17.770
leadership by rabbi Jonathan Sacks. We talked with Richard Messing, about

1719
01:48:17.770 –> 01:48:21.495
that, because I do believe that my Jewish brothers and sisters have a lot to

1720
01:48:21.495 –> 01:48:24.375
say about a lot of things, and we are going to do more of that

1721
01:48:24.375 –> 01:48:26.955
next year, including leadership.

1722
01:48:28.135 –> 01:48:31.575
And, of course, we covered a wide variety of different books, all the way from

1723
01:48:31.575 –> 01:48:35.400
the oral history of Sitting Bull, by his great great grandson,

1724
01:48:35.400 –> 01:48:38.940
Ernie Lapointe. We covered that with Tom Libby. All the way to,

1725
01:48:39.240 –> 01:48:42.760
fathers and sons, by Turgenev and the master of the

1726
01:48:42.760 –> 01:48:46.520
margarita, by Bulgakov, a couple of Russian writers who we had

1727
01:48:46.520 –> 01:48:50.135
never touched on before. And, of course, we covered sci fi. We finally

1728
01:48:50.135 –> 01:48:53.675
talked about Philip k Dick and, Isaac Asimov,

1729
01:48:54.535 –> 01:48:57.755
and, the power of books. Right? Asimov

1730
01:48:57.975 –> 01:49:01.495
and, Asimov and Ray Bradbury would love this

1731
01:49:01.495 –> 01:49:05.050
podcast. I think they’d be all over this sucker because it’s

1732
01:49:05.050 –> 01:49:08.830
worthwhile. So that’s the end of our year.

1733
01:49:08.890 –> 01:49:12.190
That’s our wrap up, sort of our summary of books we covered and of topics.

1734
01:49:13.370 –> 01:49:17.210
Brian, what would you like for us to take away? You’ve been

1735
01:49:17.210 –> 01:49:21.005
on this podcast now 3 or 4 times this year, making and you’re gonna

1736
01:49:21.005 –> 01:49:24.284
be on the podcast more. I I sent you the email yesterday with a list

1737
01:49:24.284 –> 01:49:27.005
of books for next year. You’re gonna look through that and poke through that and

1738
01:49:27.005 –> 01:49:30.364
tell them what you’re There’s some good ones on there. There’s some gems. I’ll tell

1739
01:49:30.364 –> 01:49:33.165
you what too. There’s some there’s some gems on there. Gonna tell you what you’re

1740
01:49:33.165 –> 01:49:36.650
interested in. So, as as you approach becoming a semiregular

1741
01:49:36.790 –> 01:49:40.470
guest here, give us some final parting thoughts with the last

1742
01:49:40.470 –> 01:49:44.150
maybe couple of minutes we have on, what we should have taken from this year

1743
01:49:44.150 –> 01:49:47.370
for the books we read and what we should be looking forward to in 2025

1744
01:49:47.910 –> 01:49:51.645
in in your opinion as we close here? Yeah. Well,

1745
01:49:51.645 –> 01:49:55.425
I I think, we have to understand that leadership

1746
01:49:55.485 –> 01:49:59.085
is in great need. It’s in short

1747
01:49:59.085 –> 01:50:02.590
supply, and and it’s a tremendous need for it. But leadership

1748
01:50:02.590 –> 01:50:06.350
requires people who are thinking, people who

1749
01:50:06.350 –> 01:50:10.030
are, applying wisdom to

1750
01:50:10.030 –> 01:50:13.870
their lives and seeking seeking wisdom where it may be found. You

1751
01:50:13.870 –> 01:50:17.295
know, I I will say this. There’s a lot of people who

1752
01:50:17.295 –> 01:50:20.275
are smarter than me on a lot of different things.

1753
01:50:20.895 –> 01:50:24.675
But I was going through this, with with my kids

1754
01:50:24.815 –> 01:50:27.715
the other day. We were reading through the old testament Proverbs,

1755
01:50:28.815 –> 01:50:32.520
and, it says that the the the fear of the lord is

1756
01:50:32.520 –> 01:50:36.139
the beginning of wisdom. And as we are reading through,

1757
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you know, Revelation and, that, you know, particularly towards the end of

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01:50:41.320 –> 01:50:44.380
the the judgment the the idea of judgment and,

1759
01:50:45.275 –> 01:50:49.114
you know, that Christ is the one who holds the keys to judgment.

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01:50:49.114 –> 01:50:52.315
He holds the keys to hell in Hades. He’s the one who is on the

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01:50:52.315 –> 01:50:55.835
throne conducting, you know, the the

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01:50:55.835 –> 01:50:59.430
judgments. He’s the one dishing out justice. That if we wanna

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01:50:59.430 –> 01:51:03.270
be leaders of character, leaders who are impactful, right, we

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01:51:03.270 –> 01:51:06.710
need to be leaders who are humble enough to fear

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01:51:06.710 –> 01:51:10.550
God and trust him. And so, so I think, you know, as as

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01:51:10.550 –> 01:51:13.990
we we’ve covered a lot of different you’ve covered a lot of different topics.

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01:51:13.990 –> 01:51:17.105
I’ve been here for a handful of them. But but,

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01:51:18.605 –> 01:51:22.065
as as we, you know, I would just encourage your listeners

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01:51:22.764 –> 01:51:26.364
to, to continue to, to grow. You’ve you’ve never

1770
01:51:26.364 –> 01:51:29.950
arrived as a leader. You’ve never, you know, been to the gym

1771
01:51:30.330 –> 01:51:34.010
enough times. Like like, if you wanna maintain the strength

1772
01:51:34.010 –> 01:51:37.690
that you have, you’ve gotta continue to go to the gym. You’ve gotta

1773
01:51:37.690 –> 01:51:41.530
continue to to work at it. I would say leadership is the same thing. You’ve

1774
01:51:41.530 –> 01:51:45.195
you’ve got to the pursuit of wisdom, the pursuit of the the the

1775
01:51:45.195 –> 01:51:48.815
qualities that make a good leader require effort and diligence.

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01:51:48.875 –> 01:51:52.555
So I’ll just encourage your your your readers or your listeners in the new in

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01:51:52.555 –> 01:51:54.895
the new year to continue on their journey.

1778
01:51:56.809 –> 01:52:00.030
I think that’s great encouragement. I’m going to take it.

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01:52:01.449 –> 01:52:04.590
And I’m going to say, for the last time in 2024,

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01:52:06.730 –> 01:52:10.170
thank you for listening to the Leadership Lessons from the Great Books

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01:52:10.170 –> 01:52:12.545
podcast. And with that, well,

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01:52:14.045 –> 01:52:14.864
we’re out.