The Earth is all That Lasts by Mark Lee Gardner (Introduction) w/Jesan Sorrells

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Because understanding great literature is better than trying to read and understand

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yet another business book on the Leadership Lessons from the Great Books

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Podcast, we commit to reading, dissecting, and analyzing the great

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books of the Western canon. You know, those

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books from Jane Austen to Shakespeare and everything else in

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between that you might have fallen asleep trying to read in high

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school. We do this for our listeners, the owner, the

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entrepreneur, the manager, or the civic leader who doesn’t have the time

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to read, dissect, analyze, and leverage insights from

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literature to execute leadership best practices in

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the confusing and chaotic postmodern world. We all now

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inhabit. Welcome to the rescuing of Western

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Civilization at the intersection of literature

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and leadership. Welcome to the Leadership Lessons from

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the Great Books Podcast. Hello,

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my name is Jesan Sorrells and this is the Leadership Lessons

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from the Great Books podcast, episode number

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172.

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From the poet Nancy Wood comes this poem,

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Many winters, published in

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1974

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and I the earth is all that lasts.

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The earth is what I speak to when I do not understand my life,

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nor why I am not heard. The earth answers me with the

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same song that it sang from my fathers when their tears

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covered up the sun. The earth sings a song of

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gladness, the earth sings a song of praise. The

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earth rises up and laughs at me each time that I

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forget how Spring begins with winter and

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death begins with birth.

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The themes of birth, death,

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tears, praise, gladness,

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life, and being heard or not

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being heard buried within this poem from

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Nancy Wood lie directly below, around

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and cut through the history of the book

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that we are going to introduce today.

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History as we have covered it on this podcast is the long human

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story of beginnings and, inevitably,

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endings. And there are no more bitter endings in

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the history of the settling of the North American continent than

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the ending of the great Sioux nation that once ruled the Great Plains

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of the United States until the early part of the

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20th century. This history

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has been documented more extensively over the last 50 years than

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in the previous 100 years. As a result, we can learn

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some. Important lessons from studying this history

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about leadership and unveiling the

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challenges that can arise as the inevitable

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close of a civilization

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today. On this episode of the podcast, this

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introductory episode of the podcast, we will be

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introducing and discussing multiple themes from

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the Earth Is all that Lasts by Mark

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Lee Gardner, Leaders

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the earth indeed is all that lasts.

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You and I and every great civilization you know

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will one day pass into.

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The halls of history.

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Foreign.

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So, as usual, when we introduce a

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book and its themes, I want to talk about the Earth Is all

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that Lasts by Mark Lee Gardner, and then I’m going

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to discuss. We’re going to get into the literary life

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of Mark Lee Garner in our second section, and we

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will go into some dominant themes that I see

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in the third and fourth section

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of our podcast today, and then we’ll talk

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about some conclusions towards the back end of the show.

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So when you open up and I have the paperback version of the Earth is

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All that Lasts, it was published in.

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In 2022 and

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was. The version that I have was published by Harper Collins

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Books. So of course it’s. It is a.

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It is a copyrighted work. So we won’t be reading directly from. From

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the book, but Mark Lee Gardner has a

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long publishing history, writing

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about the history of the American

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West. Now, when you open the book, you see a map

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that shows all of the homeland

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of Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull. By the way, the

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subtitle of this book, the Earth is All that Lasts.

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The subtitle is Crazy Horse, Sitting Bull in the Last Stand of the

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Great Sioux Nation. When you open up the book,

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you do see a map of the territories that are

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covered in this book and the battles that extend from

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Montana and down into Kansas and then of

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course, east into. Into Minnesota, um, and

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even as far as far southeast as

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Missouri at Fort Leavenworth. This was

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the contested territory, the Dakota Territory, the Montana Territory,

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the Wyoming Territory, particularly the Montana Tour Territory,

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where massive battles occurred that Sitting Bull

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and Crazy Horse and the Lakota and the Sioux were involved

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in the. The Battle of, of the Yellowstone in

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1872, the Battle of the Tongue river in

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1873, the Battle of the Powder river in

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1876. Let’s see the.

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The Grattan fight in 1854.

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Massacre. Massacre Canyon that occurred in

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1818. And of course,

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probably the most famous battle that the

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Lakota and the Sioux were involved in in the Montana

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Territory against General George Armstrong Custer.

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The Battle of the Bighorn. I’m sorry,

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not the Battle of Horn, but. Well, yes, the Battle of the Bighorn, but then

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also the Battle of Little Bighorn in

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1876. The forts

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are also noted on this map. Fort Abraham Lincoln, Fort Rice,

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Fort Yates, Fort Randall, Fort Leavenworth, as I already mentioned, Fort

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Laramie, Fort Phil Kearny Fort

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Fort Reno. And of course, a lot of the

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battles focused around the. The area

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in the western Montana Territory

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and going into the Dakota Territory of the Black

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Hills, which were considered to be a sacred area

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by the Lakota. The table of contents is

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organized into 14 chapters with an extensive epilogue

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as well as an extensive set of acknowledgments

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around the American Indian informants, the folks that he talked to in

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the history that he gathered, Notes, resources, and an extensive index.

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Matter of fact, the supporting information for

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this book numbers at probably 200

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pages. Each chapter covers different.

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Covers different aspects of the interactions between the

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Lakota, the Sioux and other

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native American tribes, including the Oglalas, the hunk

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papas, and so on and so on. The Pawnee, the

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Cherokee, the Cheyenne,

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though, all those folks are all covered in this. In

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this book. And, and like I said, There’s 14 chapters, each

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one starting with a particular quote that frames the

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chapter. And we open with

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the idea of who Sitting bull

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was, how he led the. The Lakota.

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And the lakota consisted of seven

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western Sioux tribes. So I already mentioned the

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ogalalas and the Hunkpapas. There were the. The mini

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conjos, the siya sapas, the two kettle,

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sans arc and brulee. There were also

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yanktonais and Santees who were a middle and

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eastern sioux, and then there were the northern and southern cheyennes

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who were the friends and the allies of the Lakotas.

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The war chief of the

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oglala was, of course, crazy horse.

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And the way that the leadership was set up, and

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we’ll talk a little bit more about this later on today, but. But the way

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that the leadership was set up was. It was basically

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sitting bull was sort of the. The. The chief or the, the

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head general, such as it were, of the lakota. And

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crazy horse was a trusted lieutenant. Of course,

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the immigrants, the white settlers coming west in

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search of gold or just a new place to live

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that wasn’t in the east. The newspapers that report

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reported on these two men and their tribes and even the

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u. S. Cavalry and the u. S. Government didn’t really

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recognize or acknowledge the distinction between these

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two men until much too late.

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And that would, of course, set the table or.

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Or continue. If you look at the long history of

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native tribes and their interactions with the United States government,

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that would either continue or set the table for future

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interactions, particularly after the war

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drums had stopped beating.

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So let’s move on and talk about the literary life of Mark Lee

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Gardner, the author of the Earth is all that

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lasts. A native of Missouri, Mark Lee gardner

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has researched and written about the American west since he was in

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high school. During his college years, he spent summers as a

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seasonal park ranger at bentz old fort national historic

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site, Colorado, and Harpers ferry national historical park, west

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Virginia. He also spent one summer as a Mary moody

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northern graduate fellow at the stonewall Jackson House in

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Lexington, Virginia. Mark has

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written a number of critically acclaimed and award winning books from material

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culture studies such as Wagons for the Santa Fe Trade, from the University

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of New Mexico Press in the year 2000 to his best selling nonfiction

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titles for HarperCollins including as are listed

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in the Earth Is all that Lasts to Hell on a Fast Horse the

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Untold Story of Billy the Kid and Pat Garrett

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Rough Riders, Theodore Roosevelt, His Cowboy Regiment and the Immortal Charge Up

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San Juan Hill Wagons for the Santa Fe Trade, which we

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already talked about the Mexican War Correspondence of Richard

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Smith Elliot which he co wrote with Mark Simons

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and brothers on the Santa Fe and Chihuahua

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Trails, Edward James Glasgow and William Henry Glasgow,

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1846-1840. So clearly he’s written

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a lot about again the American west and has a passion

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for writing what fundamentally

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are journalistic takes on the history

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of the American West.

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As an authority on the American West, Mark has frequently been

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an on air expert for national broadcasts and cable

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networks, public radio and of course for numerous podcasts.

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No, we did not get him on the podcast for

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this episode today. We just didn’t have

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the time. Mark’s books and articles have earned him multiple

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awards and recognition not only

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nationally but increasingly internationally.

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And in addition to his research and writing, Mark is an award winning musician

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and performer specializing in the historic music of the

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American West. And there’s going to be more books coming from from

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this man. If the Earth Is all that Lasts is any

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indication of where he is going in the future and his

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passion for writing, I would strongly

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recommend that you pick up this book if you want to

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if you want to understand and you want to get

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a deeper appreciation for the history of the American

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west, particularly the history of the battles between the

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Native American tribes and the tribal peoples of the American west and

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the US Cavalry. And if you want to get a rounder

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sense of exactly what was going on during

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this time historically from from a

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journalistic perspective. By the way, Mark Lee

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Gardner’s writing follows on from the writing that we covered in

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a previous episode around Sebastian Younger and his

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reportage in his book War.

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But he’s not quite a historian. He’s not quite full John

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Keegan First World War, who we also covered.

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Nor is he an individual who directly experienced

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obviously the wars and battles and fights about which he is

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passionate about writing about and I said about a lot

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there in the in the late 19th century.

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He’s not an Ernest Hemingway who’s writing A Farewell to

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Arms as a veteran, you know, of the the war

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that he is that he is writing about. So he,

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he is a journalist in the. In the realm of

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that, or he writes in a journalistic style in the realm of that. That

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Sebastian Younger space. But he’s chasing a

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deeper truth, I believe. And that is reflected reflected in some of the

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themes that are in. In this book.

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So the, the major chapter themes in the Earth is All

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that Lasts really focus around three

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sort of central areas. So the first area is

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the ways in which the

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Lakota were organized, right?

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The. The Western Sioux tribes, how they organized, how they fought,

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how they engaged with the 7th Cavalry, the ways in which they

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learned from battling not only the 7th Cavalry,

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but battling the other cavalry that were sent against them, how they

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perceived their American

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their American counterparts, and also

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how they perceived the flow of immigrants

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westward. The various tribes perceive this very

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differently. There’s an idea in one of the

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themes inside of the Earth is All that Lasts that Gardner explores

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beautifully, is this idea that even among the tribes,

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there were those who wanted to create treaties

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with the government, the United States

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government, and there were those who did not. And Sitting Bull

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00:16:20,800 –> 00:16:24,520
and Crazy Horse represented those who did not want to, who were

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anti treaty. And folks like Red

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Cloud and others were folks who were

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pro treaty who believed, as Red Cloud says

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deep into the book, that the white men were going to be coming anyway,

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so it would be a good idea to do some kind of deal with

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them. The other

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kind of theme that jumps out from,

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00:16:51,690 –> 00:16:55,370
from the Earth is All that Lasts is the theme of a

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00:16:55,370 –> 00:16:58,690
warrior culture among the. The Lakota particular,

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particularly among young male Lakotas.

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And many young male Lakotas

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desired yes to. To trade with.

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With the. The forts that were placed on the

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frontier in the west by the US Government to

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protect immigrant trades and westward settlement and westward

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movement. Gold prospectors, miners,

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00:17:24,690 –> 00:17:27,970
eventually later on, folks who were surveying for.

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For the railroads that were going to be going through the Dakota,

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Montana and Wyoming territories. But also

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there were, among the young men, there were Lakotas

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who sought the prestige and

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00:17:44,690 –> 00:17:48,130
the status of engaging in

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warfare. And this is a major theme

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00:17:51,550 –> 00:17:54,910
throughout all of the Earth is All that Lasts.

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And there’s a quote at the start of chapter

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seven, too Many Tongues, that sort of exemplifies this right.

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That was delivered from an interpreter named Mitch Boyer,

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00:18:07,870 –> 00:18:11,686
who was a mixed blood. Santee, July 27,

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00:18:11,894 –> 00:18:15,630
1867. And I quote, he said this.

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00:18:15,870 –> 00:18:19,610
There are a number of chiefs who I believe would make peace, but

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00:18:19,610 –> 00:18:23,050
the young men won’t let them. In place of chiefs

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00:18:23,050 –> 00:18:25,970
controlling the young men, the young men control

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00:18:26,610 –> 00:18:30,290
them. And this is, this is the thing

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00:18:30,290 –> 00:18:33,090
that you begin to see and this is one of the major themes, like I

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00:18:33,090 –> 00:18:36,770
said, that Garner focuses on in his, in his book

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00:18:37,090 –> 00:18:40,930
and it dominates. Oh gosh. A good, a good

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00:18:41,170 –> 00:18:44,900
two thirds of the. Of the narrative. Then

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the back end of the book talks about what happens after the war is over,

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00:18:48,860 –> 00:18:52,700
right? What happened to Sitting Bull, what

291
00:18:52,700 –> 00:18:56,540
happened to Crazy Horse, what, what happened

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00:18:56,540 –> 00:19:00,300
to not only the Lakota but the Cheyenne,

293
00:19:00,300 –> 00:19:03,740
the Arapaho and of course as the white

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00:19:03,820 –> 00:19:07,500
soldiers were referred to, the, the blue coats, right.

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And the turn of events

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00:19:12,060 –> 00:19:15,620
that occurred in order at the end of the

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00:19:15,620 –> 00:19:19,460
tribal wars that, that encouraged or not encouraged,

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00:19:19,460 –> 00:19:23,300
but that motivated Sitting Bull to go over the border into

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00:19:23,300 –> 00:19:26,140
Canada, right, And then to come back across the border

300
00:19:27,100 –> 00:19:30,860
that, that caused Crazy Horse to,

301
00:19:32,780 –> 00:19:36,220
to lose his life,

302
00:19:36,300 –> 00:19:39,980
Right. These sort of events were precipitated

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00:19:41,090 –> 00:19:44,850
by the nature of the close of the

304
00:19:44,850 –> 00:19:48,210
American west and the nature of the

305
00:19:48,930 –> 00:19:52,650
acts that were created by the, the government that

306
00:19:52,650 –> 00:19:56,130
created reservations and then how those acts were

307
00:19:56,130 –> 00:19:59,730
gone back on and were reneged on by the US

308
00:19:59,730 –> 00:20:03,450
Government. So

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00:20:03,450 –> 00:20:07,170
the Earth is All that last. Contains a lot of history about not only

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00:20:07,170 –> 00:20:10,700
the native tribes and how they interacted with each other, but, but also

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00:20:10,780 –> 00:20:14,060
how they were perceived by others, including

312
00:20:14,620 –> 00:20:17,980
the general public as well as the U.S. government.

313
00:20:19,100 –> 00:20:21,820
And then of course the demands that were made on them

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00:20:23,020 –> 00:20:26,300
to move from being free roaming Plains

315
00:20:26,300 –> 00:20:28,540
Indians to being,

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00:20:30,380 –> 00:20:33,500
to being individuals who were bound by civilization

317
00:20:35,020 –> 00:20:38,460
and being threatened, thrust into becoming

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00:20:38,540 –> 00:20:42,380
part of this newly expanding and

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00:20:42,620 –> 00:20:44,780
confident country.

320
00:20:57,180 –> 00:21:01,020
So in thinking about the Earth is All that

321
00:21:01,020 –> 00:21:04,630
lasts, one of the early

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00:21:04,790 –> 00:21:08,390
dominant themes that penetrates

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00:21:08,870 –> 00:21:12,390
the entire book is this idea that can be

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00:21:12,390 –> 00:21:15,830
encapsulated by a line from,

325
00:21:16,070 –> 00:21:17,110
interestingly enough,

326
00:21:19,430 –> 00:21:22,070
Patrick Stewart playing playing

327
00:21:23,030 –> 00:21:26,550
Captain Picard in Star Trek the Next Generation.

328
00:21:27,880 –> 00:21:31,480
Everything good must come to an end.

329
00:21:33,400 –> 00:21:37,120
The line that separates tragedy from triumph runs

330
00:21:37,120 –> 00:21:40,920
throughout human history. And I talked a little bit about this in my opening

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00:21:41,880 –> 00:21:45,440
Civilizational end is. Is always a terrible thing.

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00:21:45,440 –> 00:21:49,200
And the native tribes in the. On the

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00:21:49,200 –> 00:21:52,920
North American continent and on the South American continent had

334
00:21:52,920 –> 00:21:55,880
been for better or worse tribal

335
00:21:55,880 –> 00:21:59,640
civilizations at one height or another. From the

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00:21:59,640 –> 00:22:03,320
Aztecs, the Mayas and the Incas in Mexico, Central America and

337
00:22:03,320 –> 00:22:07,120
South America all the way to the

338
00:22:07,200 –> 00:22:10,920
Cherokee and even the well name

339
00:22:10,920 –> 00:22:14,560
of the Cherokee sorry, the. All the way to

340
00:22:14,560 –> 00:22:18,080
the, the tribes that were in north

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00:22:18,240 –> 00:22:21,860
eastern, the northeastern part of the United States when the,

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00:22:22,180 –> 00:22:25,860
the, the Pilgrims and the, the Puritans showed up

343
00:22:25,860 –> 00:22:29,540
at Plymouth Rock or and Virginia way back

344
00:22:29,540 –> 00:22:32,660
in the early part of the

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00:22:33,300 –> 00:22:36,860
17th century. Up until that

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00:22:36,860 –> 00:22:40,660
point, native peoples had been on the North American and South American

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00:22:40,740 –> 00:22:44,460
continents for about a thousand years. And they had

348
00:22:44,460 –> 00:22:48,030
built civilizations such as where they had built

349
00:22:48,110 –> 00:22:51,310
societies, they had built cultures with their own

350
00:22:51,790 –> 00:22:55,550
customs, their own languages, and of

351
00:22:55,550 –> 00:22:58,670
course their own differences, which of course led to

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00:22:58,750 –> 00:23:00,990
warfare between them

353
00:23:02,350 –> 00:23:05,790
and led to other types of

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00:23:05,870 –> 00:23:09,630
problems. But when civilizations collide, and we’ve

355
00:23:09,630 –> 00:23:13,440
talked about this before on this podcast, one civilization

356
00:23:13,520 –> 00:23:17,200
is going to inevitably triumph over the

357
00:23:17,200 –> 00:23:20,960
other for a whole variety of different reasons. And

358
00:23:20,960 –> 00:23:24,400
you see the final triumph of European

359
00:23:24,720 –> 00:23:28,480
civilization over the native tribes

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00:23:28,480 –> 00:23:31,120
in the Earth is all that lasts.

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And that is the line that separates

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00:23:35,680 –> 00:23:39,370
tragedy from triumph. The fact is,

363
00:23:39,370 –> 00:23:43,050
the adaptations that make some societies, cultures and peoples leap

364
00:23:43,050 –> 00:23:46,850
forward and the adaptations that make some societies and cultures and

365
00:23:46,850 –> 00:23:50,570
peoples fail to leap, this is all part of the tragic

366
00:23:50,570 –> 00:23:54,410
nature of humanity and the tragic nature, the tragic

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00:23:54,410 –> 00:23:58,170
reading of history. This fact of history,

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00:23:58,250 –> 00:24:02,090
of course, reads as deeply unfair to our wealthy

369
00:24:02,890 –> 00:24:06,040
post modern middle class ears

370
00:24:06,600 –> 00:24:10,400
listening as they do from a place of post industrial material

371
00:24:10,400 –> 00:24:13,480
abundance and yet deep spiritual

372
00:24:13,800 –> 00:24:17,160
hollowness. As the character

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00:24:17,160 –> 00:24:20,840
Alejandro portrayed by Benicio del Toro intoned in the movie

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00:24:20,840 –> 00:24:23,960
Sicario, another movie about

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00:24:23,960 –> 00:24:27,680
apocalyptic cultural endings and their knock on effects. And I

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00:24:27,680 –> 00:24:31,160
quote, nothing will make sense to your American ears

377
00:24:31,480 –> 00:24:35,320
and you will doubt everything that we do, but in the end you will understand,

378
00:24:36,040 –> 00:24:39,160
close quote. Nothing about

379
00:24:39,640 –> 00:24:42,840
the removal of the native

380
00:24:42,920 –> 00:24:46,600
tribes, nothing about the battles between the cavalry and

381
00:24:46,600 –> 00:24:49,320
the native tribes, nothing about the

382
00:24:50,040 –> 00:24:53,560
reneging of Washington on,

383
00:24:54,520 –> 00:24:58,160
on treaties, nothing about the treatment

384
00:24:58,160 –> 00:25:01,120
of those tribes from the

385
00:25:01,600 –> 00:25:05,360
17th century all the way for 300 years,

386
00:25:05,680 –> 00:25:09,200
all the way to the beginning of the 20th century,

387
00:25:09,440 –> 00:25:13,120
nothing about that rings as fair or

388
00:25:13,120 –> 00:25:16,880
reasonable or makes any sense to our ears

389
00:25:17,200 –> 00:25:20,800
now. And we

390
00:25:20,800 –> 00:25:24,000
doubt everything that our predecessors did.

391
00:25:25,610 –> 00:25:29,370
And even with all that doubt and lack of understanding, we still

392
00:25:29,850 –> 00:25:33,570
feel guilty. And that guilt in and of

393
00:25:33,570 –> 00:25:35,210
itself is tragic.

394
00:25:37,130 –> 00:25:40,970
It’s all tragedy at the bottom of it. And this is something

395
00:25:41,050 –> 00:25:44,810
that is reflected in the Earth is all

396
00:25:45,050 –> 00:25:48,650
that lasts. The warrior

397
00:25:48,650 –> 00:25:52,490
culture of the tribal peoples of the North American Great Plains came

398
00:25:52,490 –> 00:25:56,250
to a warrior’s end. And a warrior’s end

399
00:25:56,250 –> 00:25:59,890
always involves violence. And this is something else

400
00:25:59,890 –> 00:26:03,570
that we struggle to wrap our arms around because we

401
00:26:03,570 –> 00:26:07,210
struggle to wrap our arms around the mere fact of violence

402
00:26:07,530 –> 00:26:11,050
and how that is a tool that is used in order

403
00:26:11,050 –> 00:26:14,850
to, well, quite frankly make people do things that

404
00:26:14,850 –> 00:26:18,490
they don’t want to do. As leaders,

405
00:26:18,810 –> 00:26:21,830
we can little afford to to

406
00:26:22,470 –> 00:26:26,270
wallow in guilt or wallow in lack

407
00:26:26,270 –> 00:26:29,670
of understanding, or even turn our eyes

408
00:26:29,750 –> 00:26:32,470
away from the things that we need to see in history.

409
00:26:33,270 –> 00:26:37,030
Instead, we must embrace those Things

410
00:26:37,270 –> 00:26:40,950
embrace the tragic view of human nature and the tragic view of

411
00:26:40,950 –> 00:26:44,630
human history and figure out how to integrate that tragic

412
00:26:44,630 –> 00:26:48,410
view into the realities we see in front of us, in

413
00:26:48,410 –> 00:26:51,930
our families, in our communities, and even in our

414
00:26:51,930 –> 00:26:53,490
workplaces today.

415
00:27:11,010 –> 00:27:14,730
One of the things that you see in the Earth is All that Lasts

416
00:27:14,730 –> 00:27:18,420
by Mark Lee Gardner is the

417
00:27:18,580 –> 00:27:22,340
a couple of different ideas that run parallel to each other and

418
00:27:22,340 –> 00:27:26,020
actually inform each other. So

419
00:27:26,100 –> 00:27:29,620
Sitting Bull as a leader, was

420
00:27:30,020 –> 00:27:33,540
a careful and judicious person

421
00:27:34,100 –> 00:27:37,380
who, while he did act when he

422
00:27:37,700 –> 00:27:41,340
was motivated to act, actually thought about his

423
00:27:41,340 –> 00:27:45,020
actions and seemed to have put. Seemed to have placed a lot of

424
00:27:45,020 –> 00:27:48,780
consideration and deliberation behind his actions. Whereas Crazy

425
00:27:48,780 –> 00:27:52,060
Horse was much more impulsive, much more freewheeling,

426
00:27:53,180 –> 00:27:56,900
and much more likely to inspire people, particularly

427
00:27:56,900 –> 00:27:59,940
young Lakota warriors, to action through his

428
00:27:59,940 –> 00:28:00,940
impulsivity.

429
00:28:03,420 –> 00:28:07,260
These two different types of leadership obviously combined together

430
00:28:07,940 –> 00:28:10,740
and made the Western Sioux

431
00:28:11,780 –> 00:28:15,180
a nightmare for folks like Phil

432
00:28:15,180 –> 00:28:18,620
Sheridan, William

433
00:28:18,620 –> 00:28:22,460
Tecumseh Sherman, and, of course, George

434
00:28:22,460 –> 00:28:25,860
Armstrong Custer. Now,

435
00:28:26,100 –> 00:28:29,380
in warfare, there is an idea, and

436
00:28:30,020 –> 00:28:33,540
it is an idea that does matter. And we saw this idea reflected also

437
00:28:33,860 –> 00:28:37,050
in. In Sebastian Junger’s book War,

438
00:28:37,530 –> 00:28:41,130
also in John Keegan’s book the First World

439
00:28:41,130 –> 00:28:44,330
War, and any other book that we’ve read about War. I mean, even about Face.

440
00:28:44,330 –> 00:28:48,170
We see this reflected when writing about war

441
00:28:48,410 –> 00:28:52,170
and when writing about the quote, unquote, sides

442
00:28:52,170 –> 00:28:54,170
in a war, there’s always

443
00:28:55,850 –> 00:28:59,690
more information, right? More documentation of the motives,

444
00:28:59,850 –> 00:29:03,530
the thought process and the results of those

445
00:29:03,530 –> 00:29:07,190
motives and thought processes on the battlefield from one side than

446
00:29:07,190 –> 00:29:10,910
from another. So if we are writing about, or if we’re

447
00:29:10,910 –> 00:29:14,350
thinking about what happened in the Corn Valley, Coringal

448
00:29:14,350 –> 00:29:17,630
Valley In Afghanistan between 2007 and

449
00:29:17,630 –> 00:29:20,310
2009, the first person

450
00:29:21,670 –> 00:29:25,230
reporting that Sebastian Younger did on

451
00:29:25,230 –> 00:29:28,470
that is going to be reflective of him being embedded with

452
00:29:29,030 –> 00:29:32,640
the US Military there, right? Is not going to be

453
00:29:32,640 –> 00:29:36,280
reflective of him being embedded with the Taliban or Taliban fighters.

454
00:29:36,280 –> 00:29:39,440
Thus, we will not know or we will have very little information on the ground

455
00:29:40,080 –> 00:29:43,880
about what the Taliban fighters are thinking, what their motives are, or any of

456
00:29:43,880 –> 00:29:47,400
that kind of information. Same thing with the Earth is all the last same thing.

457
00:29:47,400 –> 00:29:51,000
When we talk about the battles between the tribal peoples of the

458
00:29:51,000 –> 00:29:54,800
American west and the U.S. government, the representatives and the military

459
00:29:54,800 –> 00:29:58,010
of the U.S. government, except

460
00:29:59,130 –> 00:30:02,010
in this case in the Earth is all that lasts, one of the major themes

461
00:30:02,010 –> 00:30:05,690
that comes out is Gardner’s attempt to gather

462
00:30:05,690 –> 00:30:09,050
both sides, right? To gather as much data and information

463
00:30:09,450 –> 00:30:13,210
as he can and to present it in as orderly a fashion as

464
00:30:13,210 –> 00:30:16,890
he can about what both sides were thinking during the course

465
00:30:16,890 –> 00:30:20,730
of this war. The deeper idea

466
00:30:20,730 –> 00:30:24,490
that he is seeking to expound upon, the deeper idea

467
00:30:24,490 –> 00:30:28,300
that he is seeking to expound, explore, is an idea I think, that

468
00:30:28,300 –> 00:30:31,340
we don’t talk too much about on this show, but it is a theme that

469
00:30:31,340 –> 00:30:35,140
definitely jumps out. And the theme is that the enemy

470
00:30:35,220 –> 00:30:38,660
gets a vote. Too often

471
00:30:39,060 –> 00:30:42,860
in warfare, when we only look at one

472
00:30:42,860 –> 00:30:46,100
side, we look at the side of those that won the war

473
00:30:46,340 –> 00:30:50,140
and we forget that there are people on the other

474
00:30:50,140 –> 00:30:53,540
side, whatever that side may be, who also

475
00:30:53,700 –> 00:30:57,440
have their own perspective on winning and

476
00:30:57,760 –> 00:31:01,240
losing. And in the Earth is all that Lasts. From the

477
00:31:01,240 –> 00:31:05,000
invasion of Good Horse Grass country, the chapter focused on that all the

478
00:31:05,000 –> 00:31:08,680
way to the chapter focused on the acts of Thieves, Land of

479
00:31:08,680 –> 00:31:12,160
Uncertainty, Soldiers coming with their heads down, which

480
00:31:12,160 –> 00:31:15,800
tells about the battle of Little Bighorn and the absolute decimation

481
00:31:15,800 –> 00:31:19,480
of the arrogant George Armstrong Custer, A Winter

482
00:31:19,480 –> 00:31:22,920
War all the way to the end of Freedom and Ghosts.

483
00:31:23,480 –> 00:31:26,520
Gardner attempts, as a main theme in his book

484
00:31:27,480 –> 00:31:31,080
to weave in multiple perspectives. That way we get a more

485
00:31:31,080 –> 00:31:34,880
global understanding of exactly what was

486
00:31:34,880 –> 00:31:38,120
happening during this period of time in American

487
00:31:38,520 –> 00:31:38,920
history.

488
00:31:56,770 –> 00:32:00,410
So what are we to take as leaders from the Earth is all that

489
00:32:00,410 –> 00:32:03,890
Lasts, Crazy Horse, Sitting Bull, and the last stand of the Great

490
00:32:03,890 –> 00:32:07,690
Sioux Nation? What are we to take from this book that

491
00:32:07,690 –> 00:32:11,330
is extensively researched, lovingly written, with,

492
00:32:11,840 –> 00:32:15,440
with a high attention to detail, and a fidelity

493
00:32:15,520 –> 00:32:19,200
to not only the facts, but also a fidelity

494
00:32:19,200 –> 00:32:23,000
to getting all the facts correct? What

495
00:32:23,000 –> 00:32:26,240
are we to take if we read this book, from

496
00:32:27,359 –> 00:32:31,000
that we can apply to challenges that we may be

497
00:32:31,000 –> 00:32:33,760
having in our own present time? What can history

498
00:32:34,480 –> 00:32:38,100
teach us? Well, I think one

499
00:32:38,180 –> 00:32:41,780
of the major pieces from this book

500
00:32:42,340 –> 00:32:45,860
goes back to this idea that I explored a little bit previously

501
00:32:46,580 –> 00:32:49,780
about taking a tragic view of history.

502
00:32:50,100 –> 00:32:53,060
Right. Everything good must come to an end.

503
00:32:53,860 –> 00:32:57,300
But there also is an idea in here that

504
00:32:57,700 –> 00:33:01,140
as leaders, we must not make

505
00:33:01,220 –> 00:33:04,020
the mistake that a lot of leaders make

506
00:33:04,960 –> 00:33:08,000
in reading the correct books,

507
00:33:08,800 –> 00:33:12,480
reading the right books, but learning the wrong lessons.

508
00:33:13,920 –> 00:33:17,280
So for instance, we kind of explored this a little bit when we were reading

509
00:33:17,280 –> 00:33:21,120
our science fiction books. Everything from Robert Heinlein

510
00:33:21,120 –> 00:33:24,320
to Philip K. Dick, Ray Bradbury to Isaac

511
00:33:24,320 –> 00:33:28,040
Asimov, and one of the things that we realized, one of the things that

512
00:33:28,040 –> 00:33:31,600
we explored with our co hosts when reading those books, was that

513
00:33:33,720 –> 00:33:37,240
these books, the science fiction books that I mentioned in the science fiction authors,

514
00:33:38,360 –> 00:33:42,080
had influenced a lot of the thinking, the

515
00:33:42,080 –> 00:33:45,560
current thinking of our tech elite

516
00:33:45,720 –> 00:33:49,520
in Silicon Valley, the ways in which tech bros,

517
00:33:49,520 –> 00:33:53,000
quote unquote, think about artificial intelligence,

518
00:33:53,320 –> 00:33:56,680
or the simulacra of social media,

519
00:33:57,400 –> 00:34:01,240
the ways in which they are building our cyber driven

520
00:34:01,240 –> 00:34:04,800
future and the ways in which robotics and algorithms

521
00:34:05,600 –> 00:34:09,280
may show up, are currently showing up and may show up in the future

522
00:34:09,440 –> 00:34:13,160
to impact our lives. The tech bros are reading these books. They

523
00:34:13,160 –> 00:34:16,000
are inspired by these ideas of the future,

524
00:34:17,200 –> 00:34:20,480
shiny, metallic and clean future.

525
00:34:21,840 –> 00:34:25,440
But they are learning, or they have learned the wrong lessons.

526
00:34:26,270 –> 00:34:30,030
From Sam Altman to Mark Andreessen, from

527
00:34:30,110 –> 00:34:33,310
Mark Zuckerberg to Elon Musk.

528
00:34:35,550 –> 00:34:39,270
And when they learn these wrong lessons and head out

529
00:34:39,270 –> 00:34:42,670
into the world to bring to fruition, to bring to

530
00:34:42,670 –> 00:34:46,110
reality the technological wizardry they read about when they were

531
00:34:46,110 –> 00:34:49,950
powerless and perhaps even potentially picked upon teenagers,

532
00:34:50,910 –> 00:34:54,510
they incorporate all of that

533
00:34:54,510 –> 00:34:57,949
emotional nonsense into their

534
00:34:57,949 –> 00:35:01,509
reading of these books and miss the larger

535
00:35:01,509 –> 00:35:05,189
lessons. And so, as leaders, we don’t want to fall into

536
00:35:05,429 –> 00:35:08,469
that same trap when we read history.

537
00:35:11,669 –> 00:35:15,189
We must learn all the correct, hard, and even

538
00:35:15,189 –> 00:35:18,309
deeply unpleasant lessons that

539
00:35:19,029 –> 00:35:22,869
violate our deeply held shibboleths

540
00:35:23,210 –> 00:35:26,730
about how things should be or how they ought to be.

541
00:35:27,370 –> 00:35:30,650
And then we must decide to accept or reject those lessons,

542
00:35:30,970 –> 00:35:34,650
knowing, of course, realizing as mature

543
00:35:34,650 –> 00:35:38,370
leaders, as adult leaders, as serious leaders, that

544
00:35:38,370 –> 00:35:41,970
there will always be consequences for such acceptance or

545
00:35:41,970 –> 00:35:45,650
rejection. And of course, understanding that

546
00:35:45,650 –> 00:35:49,450
as leaders we cannot, we should not, and we will not

547
00:35:49,450 –> 00:35:52,160
be able to avoid accountability.

548
00:35:54,400 –> 00:35:57,680
The facts of history. And this is why we read historical books on this

549
00:35:57,680 –> 00:36:01,040
podcast. The facts of history are hard taskmasters

550
00:36:01,040 –> 00:36:04,640
indeed, which is why many people avoid reading history.

551
00:36:05,440 –> 00:36:09,040
Not because they don’t want to know information about the past that may

552
00:36:09,600 –> 00:36:12,320
disrupt a myth that they may have in their head

553
00:36:13,280 –> 00:36:16,480
that’s too easy and too dismissive

554
00:36:17,080 –> 00:36:20,680
a a prescription. I think the reason people

555
00:36:20,760 –> 00:36:24,440
don’t read history and the reason people struggle with

556
00:36:24,520 –> 00:36:28,040
historical understanding is because it’s really,

557
00:36:28,040 –> 00:36:31,880
really hard to deal with

558
00:36:31,880 –> 00:36:34,920
the facts of history as they were.

559
00:36:36,040 –> 00:36:39,040
Because you can’t go back and change them, right? You can’t go back and get

560
00:36:39,040 –> 00:36:42,440
a redo. For all of our human power,

561
00:36:43,450 –> 00:36:47,250
for all of our technological wizardry, we still can’t travel back

562
00:36:47,250 –> 00:36:51,050
to the past and remake it into our vision of the current

563
00:36:51,130 –> 00:36:54,970
world, which of course in the past would be a vision of the future.

564
00:36:56,170 –> 00:36:59,770
We merely have to live with the idea

565
00:36:59,850 –> 00:37:03,450
that people in the past made different decisions than we made

566
00:37:03,610 –> 00:37:07,370
with the limited information which they thought was maximal at the time

567
00:37:07,370 –> 00:37:10,650
that they had. And those decisions had

568
00:37:10,650 –> 00:37:13,210
consequences. And there was accountability.

569
00:37:15,770 –> 00:37:19,370
And this, this is what makes the facts of

570
00:37:19,370 –> 00:37:22,970
history hard. And we can’t

571
00:37:22,970 –> 00:37:26,810
dismiss it. We can’t refuse to incorporate the lessons from history.

572
00:37:27,930 –> 00:37:31,730
Instead, we have to learn, we have to ignore. We have

573
00:37:31,730 –> 00:37:34,650
to. We have to harden our minds

574
00:37:36,100 –> 00:37:39,860
to embrace those hard lessons and embrace

575
00:37:39,860 –> 00:37:43,700
those hard facts. That way we

576
00:37:43,700 –> 00:37:46,980
can continue to make mature decisions

577
00:37:47,380 –> 00:37:50,100
into a future where other people

578
00:37:50,979 –> 00:37:52,100
will judge us.

579
00:38:01,550 –> 00:38:05,110
Finally, as we wrap up our

580
00:38:05,110 –> 00:38:08,510
podcast here today, our episode here today, our introductory episode

581
00:38:08,590 –> 00:38:12,430
to to the Earth is all that Lasts by

582
00:38:12,510 –> 00:38:15,950
Mark Lee Gardner. By the way, I would encourage you to check out

583
00:38:16,349 –> 00:38:20,070
the next episode, episode number 173, where we talk with

584
00:38:20,070 –> 00:38:23,790
my co host Tom Libby about one

585
00:38:23,790 –> 00:38:26,830
of the dominant themes that is in this book,

586
00:38:27,750 –> 00:38:31,510
the dominant theme of young men and what you do with their energies

587
00:38:31,670 –> 00:38:33,910
in a warrior culture,

588
00:38:34,470 –> 00:38:37,870
particularly when that

589
00:38:37,870 –> 00:38:41,630
warrior culture is on the decline, and then how

590
00:38:41,630 –> 00:38:45,070
that translates into our current postmodern

591
00:38:45,070 –> 00:38:47,670
era where we have trouble

592
00:38:48,230 –> 00:38:50,870
incorporating the energies of young men

593
00:38:52,230 –> 00:38:55,710
into modern world, where glory,

594
00:38:56,190 –> 00:38:59,950
particularly martial glory, is hard to come by. So check out

595
00:38:59,950 –> 00:39:03,790
episode number 173 after

596
00:39:03,790 –> 00:39:07,470
you listen to this episode. So my final thought

597
00:39:07,470 –> 00:39:10,950
today is on this idea of the

598
00:39:10,950 –> 00:39:14,750
Apocalypse, the

599
00:39:14,750 –> 00:39:18,390
apocalypse which many of us who still

600
00:39:18,390 –> 00:39:21,870
carry around the residue of the Christian worldview

601
00:39:22,270 –> 00:39:25,310
that used to permeate the west through and through.

602
00:39:26,670 –> 00:39:30,270
Many of us associate the word apocalypse with the book of Revelation

603
00:39:30,590 –> 00:39:34,110
in that horry old book that I always talk about on this show,

604
00:39:34,590 –> 00:39:38,150
the Bible, that last wild book with the

605
00:39:38,150 –> 00:39:40,270
visions of John in it.

606
00:39:41,470 –> 00:39:44,710
Apocalypse, though that word that

607
00:39:44,710 –> 00:39:48,110
sometimes that last book of the Bible is entitled

608
00:39:48,830 –> 00:39:52,520
comes from the ancient Greek word apocalypsis.

609
00:39:52,920 –> 00:39:56,680
And the ancient Greek word means revelation or a

610
00:39:56,680 –> 00:40:00,080
revealing. The

611
00:40:00,080 –> 00:40:03,400
idea that no one really tells people

612
00:40:04,040 –> 00:40:07,640
is that revelations or disclosures or revealings

613
00:40:08,120 –> 00:40:11,960
are always happening. New information is

614
00:40:11,960 –> 00:40:15,520
always coming to the forefront. Either new information about a

615
00:40:15,520 –> 00:40:19,320
historical past or new information about a current

616
00:40:19,400 –> 00:40:23,070
era, or new information that will influence decisions that are to be made

617
00:40:23,220 –> 00:40:26,900
made in the future. So here’s some new

618
00:40:27,940 –> 00:40:31,700
information. The lessons that

619
00:40:31,700 –> 00:40:35,100
leaders can glean, or one of the lessons that leaders can glean from the end

620
00:40:35,100 –> 00:40:38,700
of the Sioux Nation are lessons

621
00:40:38,700 –> 00:40:42,260
that reveal or disclose just how

622
00:40:42,260 –> 00:40:45,140
majestic and doomed the Sioux Nation

623
00:40:45,780 –> 00:40:49,470
was as a people. On

624
00:40:49,470 –> 00:40:53,270
this show. I have asked the question previously with our

625
00:40:53,270 –> 00:40:56,990
conversation that we also had with Tom Levy around Ernie Lapointe’s book

626
00:40:57,630 –> 00:41:01,390
that was basically a biography, a sourced

627
00:41:01,390 –> 00:41:05,110
biography of Sitting Bull. I asked this question in this episode, in that

628
00:41:05,110 –> 00:41:08,510
episode, and you should go listen. I believe it’s episode number 157

629
00:41:09,390 –> 00:41:13,110
about not only the Sioux Nation, but about all the tribal peoples of the

630
00:41:13,110 –> 00:41:16,840
Great Plains, the upper Great Plains Plains in America. I asked

631
00:41:16,840 –> 00:41:19,960
this question, could the United States have become what it is now

632
00:41:20,840 –> 00:41:24,520
without the destruction of the various Native American nations and peoples in the

633
00:41:24,520 –> 00:41:28,360
Midwest, and we

634
00:41:28,440 –> 00:41:31,800
battered. Tom and I batted that question around in episode number

635
00:41:31,800 –> 00:41:35,160
157, and we never really got to an answer to that question.

636
00:41:36,440 –> 00:41:39,640
And I think that

637
00:41:40,200 –> 00:41:43,960
the answer to that question is, of course, a

638
00:41:43,960 –> 00:41:47,340
revealing one, a a

639
00:41:47,660 –> 00:41:50,900
disclosing one, a dare I say,

640
00:41:50,900 –> 00:41:52,860
apocalyptic answer

641
00:41:55,260 –> 00:41:58,860
from the arrival of the first European in the

642
00:41:59,340 –> 00:42:03,020
early six. Or not the early this, the later, well,

643
00:42:03,020 –> 00:42:06,620
the middle part of the 16th century, all the way

644
00:42:06,620 –> 00:42:09,820
to the bitter end of the

645
00:42:10,140 –> 00:42:13,340
tribal wars in the 1890s,

646
00:42:14,280 –> 00:42:18,040
the final depositing of the remnants of

647
00:42:18,600 –> 00:42:21,320
Native American peoples onto reservations.

648
00:42:23,640 –> 00:42:27,320
The bitter end of civilization to make space for

649
00:42:28,040 –> 00:42:31,720
the next civilization was probably almost fait

650
00:42:31,720 –> 00:42:35,480
accompli. That apocalypse,

651
00:42:35,800 –> 00:42:39,440
that ending is one that should give us

652
00:42:39,440 –> 00:42:42,840
pause, because leaders

653
00:42:42,920 –> 00:42:46,560
understand that there are wise. Leaders

654
00:42:46,560 –> 00:42:50,400
understand that there are always three parts to

655
00:42:50,400 –> 00:42:54,000
every life, just like there are three parts to

656
00:42:54,000 –> 00:42:57,720
a story. And civilizations follow along with these three

657
00:42:57,720 –> 00:43:01,080
parts as well. There’s a beginning, a birth,

658
00:43:01,720 –> 00:43:04,360
a middle, and an end.

659
00:43:06,210 –> 00:43:09,930
And we struggle in our society and culture

660
00:43:09,930 –> 00:43:13,490
with a fear of death. We fear endings,

661
00:43:14,370 –> 00:43:18,130
both secular and Christian. We

662
00:43:18,290 –> 00:43:22,050
fear a climate change apocalypse in the same way that

663
00:43:22,050 –> 00:43:25,770
we fear an apocalypse of Jesus

664
00:43:25,770 –> 00:43:29,450
returning. And maybe this is not unique to the

665
00:43:29,450 –> 00:43:33,010
West. Matter of fact, I don’t think it probably is. I think that all

666
00:43:33,560 –> 00:43:37,160
civilizations on the planet, all peoples at the individual

667
00:43:37,160 –> 00:43:40,440
level, to some degree or another, fear death,

668
00:43:40,760 –> 00:43:44,400
which is what drives us to maximize

669
00:43:44,400 –> 00:43:48,200
our lives in various socially

670
00:43:48,600 –> 00:43:51,240
normed and culturally bounded ways.

671
00:43:52,520 –> 00:43:55,320
And leaders, leaders have to understand

672
00:43:56,920 –> 00:43:59,400
that everything comes to an end.

673
00:44:02,830 –> 00:44:06,350
But the end can be a revealing for a new beginning,

674
00:44:07,470 –> 00:44:11,310
an apocalypse, such as it were, that will open

675
00:44:11,310 –> 00:44:14,590
up new doors and create new opportunities

676
00:44:15,549 –> 00:44:19,070
for the next people who follow on

677
00:44:19,630 –> 00:44:21,230
when we are gone.

678
00:44:24,510 –> 00:44:28,180
And well, that’s it for

679
00:44:28,180 –> 00:44:31,700
me for. Listening to the Leadership Lessons from the Great Books

680
00:44:31,700 –> 00:44:35,420
podcast today. And now that you’ve made it this far,

681
00:44:35,980 –> 00:44:39,300
you should subscribe to the audio version of this show on all the major

682
00:44:39,300 –> 00:44:42,940
podcast players, including Apple, iTunes, Spotify,

683
00:44:43,180 –> 00:44:47,020
YouTube Music and everywhere else where podcasts are available.

684
00:44:48,140 –> 00:44:51,910
There’s also a video version of our podcast on our YouTube

685
00:44:51,910 –> 00:44:55,670
channel like and subscribe to the video version of this podcast on

686
00:44:55,670 –> 00:44:59,390
the Leadership toolbox channel on YouTube. Just search for Leadership

687
00:44:59,390 –> 00:45:02,630
Toolbox and hit the subscribe button there on YouTube.

688
00:45:03,350 –> 00:45:07,069
And while you’re doing that, leave a five star review. If you

689
00:45:07,069 –> 00:45:10,630
like what we’re doing here on Apple, Spotify and

690
00:45:10,630 –> 00:45:14,470
YouTube, just go below the player and hit five stars.

691
00:45:14,870 –> 00:45:18,610
We need those reviews to grow and it’s the easiest way to help grow this

692
00:45:18,610 –> 00:45:22,130
show and tell all your friends. Of course, in

693
00:45:22,130 –> 00:45:25,850
leadership. By the way, if you don’t like what we’re doing here,

694
00:45:25,850 –> 00:45:29,210
well, you can always listen to another leadership show. There are several

695
00:45:29,450 –> 00:45:33,250
other good ones out there. At least that’s

696
00:45:33,250 –> 00:45:36,570
what I’ve heard. All right, well,

697
00:45:37,290 –> 00:45:38,490
that’s it for me.