RE-BROADCAST – A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens w/Tom Libby

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So I just wanted to let you know that what you’re listening here today is

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a rebroadcast of a previously posted

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episode of the Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast.

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No new episode today, but enjoy this rebroadcast

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because listening to a rebroadcast of the Leadership

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Lessons from the Great Books podcast is still better

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than reading and trying to understand yet another business

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book. Hello, my name is

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Jesan Sorrells, and this is the Leadership Lessons from the Great Books

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podcast with our book today,

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the penultimate Christmas classic, just in time for

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the holidays. And you’ll be able to see it as I hold up the book

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on the YouTube of this, which will probably be coming out

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after the Christmas holidays. I mean, let’s be real here. A

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Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens. And of course, we’re

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welcoming back to the podcast Tom Libby. Hello, Tom.

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How are you doing? I’m doing fantastic, Hasan, thank you very much. And

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awesome having coming back. I’m super excited to be back. Yeah, it’s going to

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be great. We’re going to. Normally, I don’t have good timing

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when it comes to things like this, so normally I’m

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terrible. I’m usually scrambling kind of like most people

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scramble five days before the holidays. I’m kind of scrambling together a podcast

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episode before the Christmas holidays or before any

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major holiday. Fortunately, I was on it this year. And so

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we will be talking about A Christmas Carol, a book

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that has, as I was saying before we hit the record button, a book that

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has stood the test of time in many, many ways,

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and that has set the foundation for what

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we think of as Christmas. When we think of that in our heads,

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whether we are Christian or not, kind of in irrelevancy. Right.

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It’s actually gone beyond religion. And now we’re into the

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space of myth, and we’re into the space of something that

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everybody can appreciate increasingly from a global

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perspective. So our concepts of tinsel,

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sleigh bells ringing, the food, and

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of course, the spirits of Christmas. And we’ll talk about the

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spirits of Christmas in just a minute. And the tensions between

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capitalism and, well,

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morality are all evidenced in

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Charles Dickens’s A Christmas Carol. So we’re

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going to start off a little bit talking about

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Charles Dickens and A Christmas Carol. And so I’m going to read

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from A Christmas Carol. Now. The version that I have is the

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Bantam classic version. I always usually talk about this, usually later on the

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podcast, but I’ll bring it up early now just to get it out of the

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way. This is the Bantam classic version of a Christmas Carol. So it has

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the original, original story in it, talks a little bit about

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the reception that Dickens’s classic

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had back in the Victorian era. And then we also get

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into the literary life. A brief biographical sketch

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of Charles Dickens. And so I want to introduce you to him in case

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you have not met him. The new office boy

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who reported for work in the London law firm of Ellis and Blackmore one

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May Day in 1827 was small for his 15 years but

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he seemed sure enough of himself. He arrived neatly dressed,

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handsome of face and sporting a big black eye which he got on the way

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to the office after he had hit a bigger boy who had knocked off his

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cab. The boy in this incident was Charles Dickens.

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Destined to become a giant in literature. Dickens was born in Landport, about

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75 miles southwest of London on February 7th, 1812

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to John and Elizabeth Dickens. The years with his parents between then and

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his new job at Ellis in Blackmore were important in shaping the ideas of Dickens

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the writer. Dickens father was a clerk in a naval pay

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office but pretended to a place in society he could not

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rightfully claim. This pretension led him to spend more than he earned and

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plunged him into financial troubles which affected the life of his firstborn son. He

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piled up debts which required him to pawn the family possessions and to move his

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household from one place to another, each time to a neighborhood less desirable than

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the last. He found it impossible or inconvenient to

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keep Charles in school and made arrangements for his son to go to work. Not

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an unusual fate for a 12-year-old boy in the 1820s. In a blacking

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warehouse, Charles earned 6 shillings a week

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pasting labels on bottles of boot polish from 8 o’clock in the

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morning until 8 at night with an hour off for lunch and half an hour

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for tea in the afternoon, Monday through Saturday.

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The boy hated this job because he thought he should be in school and also

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because he found his work humiliating. Evidently some of his father’s desire

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to better his social status rubbed off on his son. Charles was often seized with

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fits of fever and spasms during his months at the blacking warehouse, a malady that

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afflicted him throughout his childhood. Whenever things were going badly,

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by the way, pause we would call this psychosomatic. These days

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his humiliation was deepened when his father, along with the rest of the family

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was sent to debtors prison. His

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deliverance came when his grandmother died and left enough money for his father to obtain

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a release from prison. Finally his father took him out of the warehouse, but not

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without protest from his mother. And sent him back to school. The whole term

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of working could not have been six months long. If the experience left a mark

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on Dickens which a life of immense popularity and great wealth could not

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erase. He could not bring himself to tell either his wife or his children about

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it, or his family’s term in prison. And his later writings bear

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witness to his interest in the economic and social factors which made such

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childhood agony possible.

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Charles spent two and a half years at Wellington House Academy, a private boys’ school

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where he impressed people with his quick wit, his habit of laughing boisterously for no

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apparent reason, and his interest in staging plays in the toy

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theatres. He was happy in school, but it was inevitable that his schooling

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should come to an end when his father’s financial condition took the now familiar turn

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for the worse. So Charles found himself at the end of his formal schooling and

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in the law firm of Ellison Blackmore as an office boy.

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There he found his work dull and his mind turned towards journalism. Learning

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that he could not succeed in newspaper reporting without a knowledge of shorthand, he set

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to work to learn and became very proficient. Dickens did so well at

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it that he became a reporter in Parliament, distinguishing himself by the speed

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and accuracy of his reporting the long debates. Although he had by then

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barely turned 20. Such success led him

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to being given editorial responsibilities on the newspaper Mirror of Parliament,

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which reported parliamentary proceedings. In his reporting job, he observed closely the people

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about him, something he had been doing since he was a small boy. And many

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of those people were destined to appear as characters in the novels yet

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unwritten. Dickens career in writing began with the

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publication of a fictional sketch in the December 1833 issue of the monthly magazine.

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This led to sketches by boys and a lifetime of creative outbursts which only a

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genius and a man of inexhaustible energy could produce. The serial story in

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newspaper and magazine was then in high fashion, and Dickens founded a splendid outlet for

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his flowing descriptions of scene and character, which were always amazingly

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accurate reports of the author’s sharp observations.

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The Pickwick Papers was his first novel and it appeared in 20 monthly

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installments. Although Dickens literary career was surging forward, he took on these new

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writing jobs but continued his newspaper work. Dickens still

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found time to fall in love and marry Catherine Hogarth. She was not his first

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love, nor his last. Indeed, women were a part of Dickens exhilarating and expansive

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personality, causing him joy and trouble through much of his life.

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For example, he began married life in 1836 with a young, beautiful and

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admiring sister in law, Mary Hogarth, sharing his household

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after 20 years, two years of marriage and 10 children,

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Charles and Catherine Dickens separated. No small scandal in Victorian England.

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Georgina Hogarth, another sister in law, continued to live in the author’s home, caring for

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the children. In addition, Dickens name was linked with the names of many

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women during his life. A man of prodigious

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energies, his life was filled with writing, traveling. He sailed to America twice, a

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considerable journey in those times, acting and giving public readings of

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his works.

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Thus

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we

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have

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as

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the setting, the background for A Christmas Carol,

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the literary life of Charles Dickens,

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probably the most popular writer of the Victorian era.

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I was just saying to Tom, before we came on,

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the guy would probably have been one of those authors with a podcast and he

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probably would have loved Twitter, actually. He would have loved it insanely.

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Jane Austen would have loved Facebook. We mentioned this in an earlier. But

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Twitter, my boy Dickens would have been on Twitter and he’d have been tweeting

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all day.

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Being born when he was in the 19th century,

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he witnessed the transition of humanity in England

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from farms and factory factories and villages to the beginning of the

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Industrial Revolution. I mean, when you’re getting paid $8

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or not $8, you’re working 812 hours a day and getting paid a

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few bucks to put labels on bottles of boot

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black and boot polish. You’re at the beginning of something.

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And the Industrial Revolution would bring more

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prosperity to more people than anything else that human beings had done

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up to that point. But it would also bring a lot of

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pathologies with it. It would also bring a lot of challenges with it, many of

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which we are still working through today. As a matter of

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fact, infamously enough, Karl Marx

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said that about Dickinson’s writing in a book called Hard Times,

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which appeared, I believe, right after Pickwick Papers. And in between that one and Oliver

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Twist, he said about Hard Times, and I quote directly,

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that book converted more people than Das Kapital did, from

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capitalism to more communistic

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ideas.

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One other thing you have to know about Dickens and we

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moderns underestimate the power of religion. We really do,

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because every man can pick his own God now. That’s the world

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we live in today. But back then you didn’t have a lot of options.

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You picked one or you didn’t pick any. And that was It. Those are your

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two options.

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Now,

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he used his talent for writing books and for observation and

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for having that prodigious energy that was mentioned there at the beginning

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to publish one book which we are going to talk about today, A

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Christmas Carol. It was published in 1843 and it has never

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been out of print. We are in the 179th year as of

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this recording of A Christmas Carol, and I anticipate we will get

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right to 200 years and we’ll go right past that. A

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Christmas Carol set the tone in the west and increasingly around the

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world for what Christmas actually means. Whether you’re

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secular or not, whether you bow at the altar of

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commercialization or whether you’re a person who really believes that it’s all

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about Jesus either way. Right. You

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have this image in your head of what Christmas is. And that

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image was created by Charles Dickens, just observing

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what he was seeing and writing it down.

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And so after all of that, I’m going to open

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up the door to Tom a little bit here because he’s listening to me patiently.

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So what are your memories? Let’s start with this. What do you. What do you

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know about the Christmas Carol and its core themes? And by the way, this has

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been turned into movies, theater shows, television. My

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God, it’s been everywhere. So, yeah, that was actually going to be my first statement,

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which one of the things I find fascinating. The. The most. Probably

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the most fascinating thing that I found about the book was no matter

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what media we’ve come out with, the book has some sort of

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interpretation based on that media, meaning it was on. It was on

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Broadway or some sort of stage version. And then movies came out,

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it came out, or radio came out. They did it on the radio. The movies

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come out. They did on the movies. Now we have all this technology, you know,

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you know, available to us, and it’s been interpreted by just about

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everybody from, from, you know, network

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televisions to Disney. Yes. Like, Disney has a

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version of it with, like. I think it. I think that that is probably the.

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One of the Most fascinating things to me that such a simplistic. And if you.

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And I don’t mean to downplay Dickens by any stretch of the imagination. The theme

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is simplistic, right? Like, yeah, you think of, like, what the theory is, what the

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theme is here. It’s. It’s capitalism over your family

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or wealth over relationships or however you want to word

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it. But that theme. And by the way, that theme has still not changed.

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Right. So anyway, I think the book is fascinating. I think it’s

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been amazing to see the journey

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that it’s been

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on, you know, and just

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through

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historic value,

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because obviously I wasn’t alive in 1843,

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but, you know, nor you. But, but, but as

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students of humanities, the two of us have been

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able to go back and see how this simplistic idea has morphed into something that

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is just bigger than itself. It really is

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just bigger than itself at this point.

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And I’m not going to name names, but even, but you’ll know what I’m talking

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about as soon as I say it. Even the big companies that are

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100% trying to sell you something are using the

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drips and memes of, like, it’s about family, it’s

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about relationships, but come buy this product because we want you to buy it.

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Like, that’s right. Like they’re even. They’re even coveting this, this

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battle, internal battle that we use. So anyway, I think the book is fascinating.

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I think it’s been amazing to see the journey that it’s been on,

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you know, and just through historic value, because obviously I wasn’t alive in

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1843, but, you know, nor you. But, but, but

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as students of history, the two of us have been able to go back and

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see how this simplistic

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idea has morphed into something that

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is just bigger than itself. It really is just bigger than itself at this point.

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It has not only has it morphed into something that is bigger than itself, but

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it’s also created. And I loved how you mentioned core themes. It’s

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created this. This tension that

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probably didn’t exist before and could only have existed under industrialization

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between, like you said, wealth and relationships. And

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Dickens was the first one to sort of see that at the beginning of the

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Industrial Revolution and really hit on something human inside of that.

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And of course, what makes it timeless is it doesn’t matter

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what the, what the externalities of the people are. When it

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comes to a celebration of relationships over something

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else, you’re going to have that tension. Right. People talk about the

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Christmas spirit all the time. Well, the Christmas spirit is more than just about giving

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and gratitude. It’s. It’s about. Which I think Thanksgiving is

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much more about that. But it’s also, but it’s about this idea of

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how do you resolve that tension between the material

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and the spiritual, you know, to put it quite frankly. Well,

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and the other thing like you mentioned a few minutes ago, and I

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again find it fascinating how he used.

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You mentioned his faith. Right. His. And a lot of

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his writings come from that, but he doesn’t put it in your face.

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I think that part is also extraordinarily

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brilliant, like coming from somebody who was raised

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Catholic. And it was like, not just put in my face, it was like shove

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down your throat. Right. Like so it was,

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you know, but he did it so subtly. Right. There was, there are, there are

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little nuances to this that make you understand and realize that he’s

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Christian. You can see it in there. But it’s not so blatantly

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obvious that you feel like it’s a religious story. Exactly,

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exactly. It’s, it’s, it’s really brilliant how he

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balances that, that pen or pencil. Well. And it’s not,

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it’s not long. It’s only an 87 page story. Like you can

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bang through this in an afternoon and you can get that.

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And so it’s that economy of language, it’s the economy

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of image, but it’s also this idea

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that something exists. And this is the

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amazing thing about it. And by the way, I will be honest, like before this

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podcast, I had probably not actually gone. I know, not

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probably. I had not actually read the book, the

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story, the Christmas Carol. Right. Because why do I need to read that? Like, I,

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I mean, I see the movie. Like, I got it. Like,

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I’ve seen the 18 movies. I’ve seen the 18 movies. I got it. Like

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I’m sad. I don’t need help. 27 television

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specials. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I personally like the Jim the Nudge,

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the, the Bill Murray version, scrooge from like

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1980 something, which I can’t show my kids because it’s a PG13 movie from the

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80s, which is actually an R rated movie today.

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But like I, because I’m. And I’m a huge Bill Murray guy. So like him,

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you know, kind of flopping around as Ebenezer Scrooge as a media

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mogul is just kind of amazing to me. Yeah, yeah. And I’m waiting for the

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AI version, the Open Chat GPT version

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of the Christmas Carol because even the robots are going to want to wrap their

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arms around this. I suspect even the robots are going to want this one.

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But in reading it and actually going back and looking at the source material, which

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is what we do on this podcast for leaders, in looking at the source material

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and going, okay, what can we pull out of this for leaders? What do

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they have to understand? Right. You realize

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just how brilliant

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and influential something small can be

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and just how much it can tip over a whole bunch

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of other different kinds of concepts in your head

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and make them easy for you to understand in a

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really meaningful way. And Dickens, that was Dickens’s talent.

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I mean, you know, the guy would have been

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a leader. Regardless of what era he would have been born in, that talent was

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going to come out. There are just some people that you realize you could pick

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up and move throughout the eons of history, and they would be successful

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regardless of where they were. Right. And I think he’s one of them. I think

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you’re right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, back to the book.

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Let’s. Let’s talk a little bit about this. This guy,

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this. This fellow. Talk a little about Scrooge.

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Going to meet Ebenezer Scrooge, right? Gonna

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get into the Christmas Carol. Let’s. Let’s go meet this

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fellow who’s been portrayed by, well, by all kinds of different

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actors. Again, my. My personal favorite is Bill Murray. You

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may have a different. You may have a different favorite. I do know, again, there’s

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been animated versions of this Disney. The Disney version of A

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Christmas Carol. I mean, my gosh, like, it’s. It’s been all over the place.

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So back to A Christmas Carol.

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The same face, the very same Marley in his

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pigtail. This is Jacob Marley, his former partner. Now

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passed usual waistcoat, tights and boots, the tassels on the ladder

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bristling like his pigtail in his coat skirts and the hair upon his head. The

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chain he drew was clasped about his middle. This is the ghost of

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Marley visiting Scrooge. It was long and wound about like

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a tail, and it was made for Scrooge observed it closely. Of

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cash boxes, keys, padlocks, ledgers, deeds and heavy purses wrought

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in steel. His body was transparent, so that Scrooge, observing him and

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looking through his waistcoat, could see the two buttons on his coat behind.

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Scrooge had often heard it said that Marley had no bowels, but he had never

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believed it until now.

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Nor did he believe it even now, though he looked.

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Though he looked the phantom threw and through, and saw it standing before him. Though

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he felt the chilling influence of its death cold eyes and marked the very texture

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of the folded kerchief bound about its head and chin, which wrapper he had not

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observed before, he was still incredulous, and he fought against his senses.

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How now? Said Scrooge, caustic and cold as ever. What do you want with me?

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Much. Marley’s voice, no doubt about it. Who

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were you? Ask me who I was. Who

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were you, then? Said Scrooge, raising his voice. You’re particular

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for a shade. He was going to say to a shade, but

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substituted this as more appropriate in life. I was your

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partner, Jacob Marley. Can you sit down?

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Asked Scrooge, looking doubtfully at him. I can do it.

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Then. Scrooge asked the question because he didn’t know whether a ghost so transparent

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might find himself in a condition to take a chair, and felt that in the

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event of its being impossible, it might involve the necessity of an embarrassing explanation.

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But the ghost sat down on the opposite side of the fireplace, as if he

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were quite used to it. You don’t believe in me, observed the

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ghost. I don’t, said Scrooge.

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What evidence would you have of my reality beyond that of your

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senses? I don’t know, said Scrooge.

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Why do you doubt your senses? Because, said

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Scrooge, a little thing affects them. A slight disorder of the stomach makes them

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cheat. You may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a

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crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato. There’s more of

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gravy than of grave about you, whatever you are.

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Scrooge was not much in the habit of cracking jokes, nor did he feel in

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his heart by any means waggish. Then the truth is that he tried to be

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smart as a means of distracting his own attention and keeping down

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his terror. For the specter’s voice disturbed the very marrow in

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his bones. To sit staring at those fixed

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glazed eyes in silence for a moment would play. Scrooge felt the very deuce with

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him. There was something very awful, too. And the specter is being provided with an

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infernal atmosphere of its own. Scrooge cannot feel it himself, but this is

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clearly the case, for though the ghost sat perfectly motionless, its hair and skirts and

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tassels were so agitated as by the hot vapor from an oven.

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You see this toothpick? Said Scrooge, returning quickly to the charge for the reason just

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assigned, and wishing, though it were only for a second to divert the

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vision’s stony gaze from himself. I do, replied the

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ghost. You are not looking at it, said Scrooge. But I see it, said the

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ghost notwithstanding. Well, returned Scrooge, I have to

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but swallow this and be for the rest of my days persecuted by a legion

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of goblins all of my own creation. Humbug, I tell you. Humbug.

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At this the spirit raised a frightful cry and shook its chain with such a

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dismal and appalling noise that Scrooge held on tight to his

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chair to save himself from falling in a swoon. But how much

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greater was his horror when the phantom, taking off the bandage round

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its head, as if it were too warm to wear it indoors, its lower

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jaw dropped down on its breast.

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Scrooge fell upon his knees and clasped his hands before his

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face. Mercy, he said. Dreadful apparition, why do you trouble me?

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Man of the worldly mind, replied the ghost. Do you believe in

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me or not? I do, said Scrooge. I

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must. But why do spirits walk the earth? Why do they come to me?

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It is required of every man, the ghost returned, that the spirit within him

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should walk abroad among his fellow men and travel far and wide.

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Scrooge

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stands in. He’s an avatar, right? As

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Tom was just saying, even in our time, for greed,

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avarice and vanity and selfishness and a

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callow lack of understanding.

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So

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turns

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out,

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as

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Tom

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was saying before, and again, not to steal Tom’s thunder, but it is something that

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00:25:41,650 –> 00:25:45,170
you can observe yourself. Seems like not a lot has changed

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in the last 39 years.

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What is remarkable about Scrooge in this little story is that

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Dickens wrote him as a critique of capitalism from the left, the political

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left, in spite of the fact that he is redeemed by

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engaging in the same capitalism that Dickens just critiqued

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from the right at the end of the story. It’s this neat little

400
00:26:10,890 –> 00:26:13,650
turning that makes this story

401
00:26:14,780 –> 00:26:18,460
political and apolitical all at the same

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00:26:18,460 –> 00:26:18,860
time.

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00:26:35,980 –> 00:26:39,740
Spiritualism is the idea that you could

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00:26:39,740 –> 00:26:43,580
raise ghosts from the dead and that you could speak to people

405
00:26:43,580 –> 00:26:45,820
who had already died. Right?

406
00:26:47,980 –> 00:26:51,620
Now, most of this was scams. The

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00:26:51,620 –> 00:26:55,060
magician and illusionist of the

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19th century, of the Victorian era, what is

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00:26:58,620 –> 00:27:01,500
his name? I’m going to remember his name in just a minute as I continue

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00:27:01,500 –> 00:27:05,260
to talk. But very famous magician and illusionist in the

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00:27:05,260 –> 00:27:09,070
19th century basically claimed he made a bet that if

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anybody could raise him from the dead, they would win a bunch of money.

413
00:27:24,070 –> 00:27:27,750
Right. And yet as a literary device,

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00:27:27,750 –> 00:27:31,310
it works because spiritualism wasn’t really about the raising of the

415
00:27:31,310 –> 00:27:35,000
dead. That’s not really what it was about. It was about condemnation. It was

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00:27:35,000 –> 00:27:36,480
about judgment. It was about.

417
00:27:38,640 –> 00:27:40,480
Well, it was about.

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00:27:42,720 –> 00:27:46,400
I read. I read something found by your measure and being found wanting. Right?

419
00:27:46,480 –> 00:27:50,160
Yeah. Well, as I say, I read. I read somewhere, too, that, that exact, that

420
00:27:50,160 –> 00:27:53,520
exact piece that you’re talking about right now was, was the.

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That strive for immortality. Right. It had more to

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00:27:57,680 –> 00:28:01,470
do with the fact that. That you’re going to, you

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00:28:01,470 –> 00:28:05,310
know, once you pass on to the next life, that you can remain in this

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00:28:05,310 –> 00:28:08,910
life. So there was like an immortality feature to it. So there was this

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00:28:08,910 –> 00:28:12,750
constant barragement of, it’s real, it’s real, it’s real. Let me

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00:28:12,750 –> 00:28:16,470
prove it. Let me prove. Let me prove it. So. Right. You know, and I

427
00:28:16,470 –> 00:28:20,190
guess I never really put that two and two together, that Dickens was like,

428
00:28:20,190 –> 00:28:23,910
I got this. Exactly. Well, and that’s

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00:28:23,910 –> 00:28:27,290
the, that’s the great thing, because he was. He was sitting around

430
00:28:28,730 –> 00:28:32,010
watching all of this happen

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00:28:32,410 –> 00:28:35,850
in real time. He was also

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00:28:36,410 –> 00:28:40,250
in the space of. And the book was published

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in 1843. He was in the space of

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00:28:44,410 –> 00:28:48,130
having conversations or conversations were beginning to be had in the public

435
00:28:48,130 –> 00:28:51,330
on a scientific level, on a very material level, because

436
00:28:51,330 –> 00:28:55,170
Darwin would publish on the Origin of the species in 1859, and that

437
00:28:55,170 –> 00:28:58,970
would turn Victorian society and the rest of society for the

438
00:28:58,970 –> 00:29:02,690
fourth on to now inside out, basically. Once Darwin

439
00:29:02,690 –> 00:29:06,010
published his theory of evolution, that was it, we’re off to the races. And you

440
00:29:06,570 –> 00:29:09,570
know, you combine that with Nietzsche and existentialism, which we talk a lot about on

441
00:29:09,570 –> 00:29:13,250
this podcast, and then you have man’s meaning. Crisis in the

442
00:29:13,250 –> 00:29:17,010
west anyway, you know, just full on, right? Because if we

443
00:29:17,010 –> 00:29:20,330
evolved from apes, if we came from nothing, Big Bang Theory,

444
00:29:20,810 –> 00:29:24,040
if there is no God in the machine, then what is the meaning, right?

445
00:29:25,000 –> 00:29:28,560
Dickens was having those, was seeing those things happen in the

446
00:29:28,560 –> 00:29:32,240
Zeitgeist in 1843. And when Origin of the

447
00:29:32,240 –> 00:29:35,640
Species came along and people forget he died in 1870, he had 20 years of

448
00:29:35,640 –> 00:29:38,640
those conversations happening around him. And so he was kind of giving a preview of

449
00:29:38,640 –> 00:29:40,760
coming attractions, I think. Yeah, yeah.

450
00:29:43,800 –> 00:29:46,200
What can leaders learn from Ebenezer Scrooge?

451
00:29:48,760 –> 00:29:52,240
It’s so weird that you were thinking like that. You just like, you just kind

452
00:29:52,240 –> 00:29:56,040
of like went there, right? Like I went right there. So. Because I was, you

453
00:29:56,040 –> 00:29:59,400
know, the funny part was when, when you, when you had sent me the information

454
00:29:59,480 –> 00:30:03,160
about this podcast, that was really my first thought, like

455
00:30:03,160 –> 00:30:06,680
before I even read the information and all the outline and all that stuff, and

456
00:30:06,680 –> 00:30:10,480
I was like, wait a minute, this is a leadership podcast. What on God’s green

457
00:30:10,480 –> 00:30:14,280
Earth am I supposed to take from leadership from Ebenezer Cruise? Well, you

458
00:30:14,280 –> 00:30:17,680
know what? I figured something out. Go ahead, go ahead. Because there’s got to be

459
00:30:17,680 –> 00:30:21,300
something. There has to be something, right? And I think one of the things

460
00:30:21,300 –> 00:30:24,540
from a leadership perspective I thought was an interesting

461
00:30:24,700 –> 00:30:28,420
concept that again, if you watch this movie

462
00:30:28,420 –> 00:30:31,420
or read this book from that perspective, I think

463
00:30:32,220 –> 00:30:35,979
the message here is crystal clear that it’s never too

464
00:30:35,979 –> 00:30:39,260
late to become a good leader, right? So it’s never too late

465
00:30:39,580 –> 00:30:43,420
to change your world around. It’s never too late to fix the wrongs,

466
00:30:43,420 –> 00:30:47,140
that you could be the world’s worst CEO and treat your people

467
00:30:47,140 –> 00:30:50,820
like crap. I can almost promise you that,

468
00:30:51,060 –> 00:30:54,700
that if you spun it a complete 180 for the next 10

469
00:30:54,700 –> 00:30:58,100
years, that’s what people are going to remember about you, right?

470
00:30:58,500 –> 00:31:01,380
So I’m sure you’ve heard the stories too.

471
00:31:02,100 –> 00:31:04,980
I’ve heard stories of very popular

472
00:31:07,220 –> 00:31:09,940
big name leaders. And again, I’m not going to throw names out there because I

473
00:31:09,940 –> 00:31:13,140
don’t want to. I don’t want to cause any kind of like debate or

474
00:31:13,810 –> 00:31:17,410
problem with your audience. But there’s been some very big leaders out there in the

475
00:31:17,410 –> 00:31:20,770
past, in our past, especially coming up in the 90s and the early

476
00:31:20,770 –> 00:31:24,570
2000s that, prior to that they were considered

477
00:31:24,570 –> 00:31:28,370
terrible. And all of a sudden the tech boom happens and

478
00:31:28,690 –> 00:31:32,370
they just really flipped the script on their own story, right?

479
00:31:32,450 –> 00:31:36,090
And they were able to become some of the all time what we would

480
00:31:36,090 –> 00:31:39,930
consider greats of leadership. And we still quote them today. But if you look

481
00:31:39,930 –> 00:31:43,610
at their early careers, they were not very good people

482
00:31:43,610 –> 00:31:47,370
and they were not very. No. What’s the

483
00:31:47,370 –> 00:31:50,970
word I’m looking for? Scrupulous. There you go. So,

484
00:31:50,970 –> 00:31:54,410
like, they did a lot of wrongs and they treated people a lot really

485
00:31:54,410 –> 00:31:58,050
poorly, but they, they caught it, they caught it at a

486
00:31:58,050 –> 00:32:01,650
point in their life where it was not too late to turn it around. And

487
00:32:01,650 –> 00:32:05,410
then, and then in turn be considered one of the better

488
00:32:05,410 –> 00:32:09,170
leaders of the 20th century, early 21st century. So I think

489
00:32:09,170 –> 00:32:12,790
for me, that jumped out at me when I, when I. Again, looking at the

490
00:32:12,950 –> 00:32:16,710
information you sent and the outline and all this stuff from

491
00:32:16,710 –> 00:32:20,070
leadership, what does this teach me about leadership and all?

492
00:32:20,550 –> 00:32:24,230
Then it turns into, then it turns into what

493
00:32:24,230 –> 00:32:27,910
is leadership other than you as a human being treating other

494
00:32:27,910 –> 00:32:31,710
people like human beings amongst all of the techniques

495
00:32:31,710 –> 00:32:32,150
and the.

496
00:32:40,620 –> 00:32:44,420
He didn’t treat people as if they were human beings until he realized that

497
00:32:44,420 –> 00:32:48,180
he needs to do that. And then once he did, his life changed for the

498
00:32:48,180 –> 00:32:51,860
better. Right. So again, I go back to like that. To me, that was the

499
00:32:51,860 –> 00:32:55,460
foundational piece of it. I’m sure there are other minor things here and there.

500
00:32:55,460 –> 00:32:58,620
And if you think of, like there’s some

501
00:32:58,620 –> 00:33:02,460
observational skills that you can take out of it. If you think about when

502
00:33:02,460 –> 00:33:06,260
he’s looking back in the past retrospective, you should always be

503
00:33:06,260 –> 00:33:10,000
gauging your past to present your future. Things like that. I

504
00:33:10,000 –> 00:33:13,680
mean, sure, there’s, I’m sure there’s tiny little nuances there that if you

505
00:33:13,680 –> 00:33:17,400
are a very analytical person, you could take out 100 of

506
00:33:17,400 –> 00:33:21,200
those things out of that. Right. And then, of course, the, the predictability

507
00:33:21,200 –> 00:33:24,920
of the future, you know, ghost of future. Right. So the ghost of

508
00:33:24,920 –> 00:33:28,200
Christmas future. Sorry, but the ghost of. And then, so you start thinking

509
00:33:28,920 –> 00:33:32,600
from. I’m a firm believer in Stephen Covey,

510
00:33:32,600 –> 00:33:36,360
right. So you look at Stephen Covey’s, you know, work, you know,

511
00:33:36,360 –> 00:33:40,200
start with the end in mind. So you’re. If you’re trying to become predictive in

512
00:33:40,200 –> 00:33:43,240
what you’re, you’re looking for from a leadership perspective, well, then you got to work

513
00:33:43,240 –> 00:33:46,560
backwards. Start with what you’re looking for, what you’re shooting for what you want to

514
00:33:46,560 –> 00:33:49,880
be judged by, and then go backwards from that. So if you’re looking at the

515
00:33:49,880 –> 00:33:53,640
Ghost of Christmas Future going, that’s what I really want, or that’s

516
00:33:53,640 –> 00:33:57,440
what’s a possibility, then what do I have to do right now in order

517
00:33:57,440 –> 00:34:01,030
to make that possibility a reality? So I do think there are a lot.

518
00:34:01,030 –> 00:34:04,790
There was way more leadership stuff in there than I expected. When I.

519
00:34:05,270 –> 00:34:09,070
When you first sent me the information, I was like, this is

520
00:34:09,070 –> 00:34:12,550
a Christmas story. What are we doing here? But the more I dissected it, the

521
00:34:12,550 –> 00:34:16,310
more I found a lot of. There’s a lot of little nuances in there.

522
00:34:16,710 –> 00:34:20,310
Right. And that’s. I am a firm believer that

523
00:34:21,590 –> 00:34:24,590
this is this. And this is why we do literature. I say this repeatedly on

524
00:34:24,590 –> 00:34:28,129
this podcast, and I’ll say it again. This is why we do literature.

525
00:34:28,289 –> 00:34:32,129
Because if you wrote the story

526
00:34:32,129 –> 00:34:35,409
of Ebenezer Scrooge and his experiences,

527
00:34:35,969 –> 00:34:39,769
if Jack Welch. I’ll name a name. If Jack Welch wrote.

528
00:34:39,769 –> 00:34:42,129
And I know it’s not the name you’re thinking of, but I’ll name a name.

529
00:34:42,289 –> 00:34:45,489
If Jack Welch wrote this kind of story,

530
00:34:50,369 –> 00:34:54,070
No one would believe it. Yeah, no one would

531
00:34:54,070 –> 00:34:57,910
believe that. That. Number one. No one to believe that

532
00:34:57,910 –> 00:35:01,070
a ghost visited you and shook you out of your. You know, that you were

533
00:35:01,070 –> 00:35:04,750
shook, as the kids say these days. No one. No,

534
00:35:04,750 –> 00:35:08,550
no one would believe that. That’s number one. But even if they did believe

535
00:35:08,550 –> 00:35:11,190
that, the level to which

536
00:35:11,910 –> 00:35:15,510
Scrooge shifts is.

537
00:35:16,710 –> 00:35:20,530
Can only happen in literature. Right. Because the writers have the ability to push the

538
00:35:20,530 –> 00:35:24,090
character wherever it is he wants the character, but quickly. That quickly,

539
00:35:24,090 –> 00:35:27,490
maybe. Yeah, I think that shift can happen, but it can’t happen as quickly as.

540
00:35:27,490 –> 00:35:30,850
It does in literature. Right, right, right, right, right. You know, he had 12. Well,

541
00:35:31,570 –> 00:35:33,730
and the book is. By the way, the book is. The book is squishy with

542
00:35:33,730 –> 00:35:37,530
the time frame. Right? So, you know, the chimes

543
00:35:37,530 –> 00:35:41,370
bell for. What is it, 12 o’ clock in the chimes bell for 1 o’.

544
00:35:41,370 –> 00:35:44,360
Clock. But then he doesn’t hear the chimes again. Right.

545
00:35:45,000 –> 00:35:48,760
Or, you know, he’s traveling through time and through space. And, of

546
00:35:48,760 –> 00:35:52,200
course, because it’s literature, you can do that, and

547
00:35:52,360 –> 00:35:54,120
it comes off as this very.

548
00:35:57,080 –> 00:36:00,760
I can easily see a modern version of the Christmas

549
00:36:00,760 –> 00:36:04,520
story or the modern version of Christmas Carol with.

550
00:36:05,240 –> 00:36:08,440
Not to be confused with the Christmas Story with Ralphie and all of that.

551
00:36:10,700 –> 00:36:14,420
Just watched that the other day with my kids. They were like, why is this

552
00:36:14,420 –> 00:36:17,700
so popular? I had to explain to them about the

553
00:36:17,700 –> 00:36:21,420
1940s and you know, the baby boomers and like, childhood

554
00:36:21,420 –> 00:36:24,860
underneath, like, not having as much as we have now. And they still kind of

555
00:36:24,860 –> 00:36:28,580
sort of rolled their eyes, like, whatever, dad, it’s fine. Okay. All

556
00:36:28,580 –> 00:36:32,060
right, it’s fine. But Ralphie is a penultimate character. Interesting.

557
00:36:32,220 –> 00:36:35,900
We will cover a Christmas story maybe next Christmas, because there are things you

558
00:36:35,900 –> 00:36:38,780
can. There are things you can learn from Ralphie, actually, interestingly enough.

559
00:36:39,980 –> 00:36:43,240
But. But leadership is everywhere. And

560
00:36:45,160 –> 00:36:48,840
that hero’s journey, again, without the psychology, right?

561
00:36:51,720 –> 00:36:55,040
Dickens is writing at a time before Jungian psychology. He’s writing at a time before

562
00:36:55,040 –> 00:36:57,680
Freud. He’s writing at a time before all of this stuff that we now frame

563
00:36:57,680 –> 00:37:00,760
A Christmas Carol or any other book around. But it was

564
00:37:01,560 –> 00:37:05,400
a hero’s journey. Except Scrooge is the villain, right? Scrooge is

565
00:37:05,560 –> 00:37:08,800
the unlikable, terrible villain. As a

566
00:37:09,120 –> 00:37:12,840
matter of fact, when he goes. Well, when the ghosts go and show

567
00:37:12,840 –> 00:37:16,000
him what other people are saying about him, none of it is positive.

568
00:37:16,320 –> 00:37:19,840
No. They’re all crapping on the guy. And so,

569
00:37:20,720 –> 00:37:24,480
so, yeah, it’s. You’re right. It is. It is this idea that a leader

570
00:37:24,480 –> 00:37:28,320
can change, but there’s. There has to be. And

571
00:37:28,320 –> 00:37:32,080
I think this is a very enlightenment idea that Dickens is holding on to.

572
00:37:32,480 –> 00:37:36,060
There has to be a. A push or a force from the outside

573
00:37:36,380 –> 00:37:40,220
that makes that happen, you know. Or in the case of leadership

574
00:37:40,220 –> 00:37:43,940
in organizational leadership from the inside, right? It has to be a force from

575
00:37:43,940 –> 00:37:47,100
outside of yourself. But you’re right in like

576
00:37:47,100 –> 00:37:50,620
anonymous surveys that are truly

577
00:37:50,620 –> 00:37:54,460
anonymous, by the way. So anonymous surveys, things like that. You know,

578
00:37:54,460 –> 00:37:58,220
that stuff. When you really get to the heart of what your employees are thinking,

579
00:37:58,860 –> 00:38:02,390
only that’s the only way you’re going to get to that paradigm shift. You’re not

580
00:38:02,390 –> 00:38:06,110
going to have an epiphany all by your lonesome when you’re sitting in

581
00:38:06,110 –> 00:38:09,630
your bed on Christmas Eve, right? It’s not. That’s not going to happen with one.

582
00:38:09,630 –> 00:38:13,350
Piece of coal and some port wine that you ripped off from some clerk.

583
00:38:14,230 –> 00:38:16,950
But. But over the course of time and really

584
00:38:17,910 –> 00:38:21,470
striving for understanding of the mentality of your workforce and of the

585
00:38:21,470 –> 00:38:24,830
mentality of your. Even of your customer base or however you want to look at

586
00:38:24,830 –> 00:38:27,620
it, that you can start to.

587
00:38:28,820 –> 00:38:32,620
To. To shift that paradigm, right? Like you can. It just. You

588
00:38:32,620 –> 00:38:36,060
have. First of all, though, here’s the biggest problem and what, again, what something that

589
00:38:36,060 –> 00:38:39,820
we can learn from, from this story is willingness, right? Are

590
00:38:39,820 –> 00:38:43,059
you really willing? Are you really willing to listen? Are you really willing to change?

591
00:38:43,059 –> 00:38:45,940
Because if you’re not, then it’s all a moot point. You can take all the

592
00:38:45,940 –> 00:38:48,700
surveys you want, you can take all the understanding. You get all the understanding from

593
00:38:48,700 –> 00:38:52,100
your readers, your clients, your customers, your friends, your family. None of that

594
00:38:52,100 –> 00:38:55,950
matters if you don’t have the willingness to listen,

595
00:38:55,950 –> 00:38:59,510
to learn to change. Exactly. It’s. Exactly.

596
00:38:59,750 –> 00:39:03,030
And some people say they are or think they are, and they’re really not. They’re

597
00:39:03,030 –> 00:39:06,630
really not. Yes. Well, well. And that gets to,

598
00:39:06,870 –> 00:39:10,150
that gets us to this idea of. I just did a whole.

599
00:39:10,550 –> 00:39:14,390
I just did a whole class this year, the last half of this year, on

600
00:39:14,390 –> 00:39:17,830
ethics. And we know we separate ethics from

601
00:39:18,070 –> 00:39:21,870
morality for a whole variety of different reasons that we don’t

602
00:39:21,870 –> 00:39:24,550
have the space to get into on the podcast on this episode anyway, of the

603
00:39:24,550 –> 00:39:27,650
podcast. And we’ll explore some of those next year with some of the books that

604
00:39:27,650 –> 00:39:31,490
we’re reading because this is a fascinating separation that leaders need to pay attention to.

605
00:39:32,770 –> 00:39:36,170
I will also say at the outset, I don’t think you can uncouple ethics or

606
00:39:36,170 –> 00:39:39,770
morality, but that’s my own bias. Let’s put that aside for just a

607
00:39:39,770 –> 00:39:43,170
second. In looking at

608
00:39:43,650 –> 00:39:47,290
how you care about people and in looking at what those forces are from the

609
00:39:47,290 –> 00:39:51,070
outside, well, how does a

610
00:39:51,070 –> 00:39:54,510
leader become ethical in paying attention and going in the right direction? Right.

611
00:39:55,470 –> 00:39:58,990
Dickens has some thoughts for us. So back to the book, back to

612
00:39:59,150 –> 00:40:02,430
the story of Christmas Carol. So

613
00:40:05,390 –> 00:40:08,750
the ghost of

614
00:40:09,950 –> 00:40:13,150
Christmas Present grabs a hold of,

615
00:40:16,920 –> 00:40:20,360
of Scrooge here and

616
00:40:20,360 –> 00:40:23,720
starts taking him around, starts showing him some things,

617
00:40:24,040 –> 00:40:27,800
right? And the ghost of Christmas Present in this

618
00:40:27,800 –> 00:40:31,640
part of the story really does set the tone for,

619
00:40:31,640 –> 00:40:35,000
again, what we think of as Christmas. Holly, mistletoe,

620
00:40:35,960 –> 00:40:39,720
food, people getting together, all this. And then. And by the way,

621
00:40:39,720 –> 00:40:43,370
these ghosts communicate with, with, with Scrooge. So there’s

622
00:40:43,370 –> 00:40:46,810
communication that goes back to that spiritualism idea and that idea. I loved how you

623
00:40:46,810 –> 00:40:50,410
brought this up about Mora. Immortality. Right. Going back and forth

624
00:40:50,410 –> 00:40:53,090
across the veil and being able to gain knowledge.

625
00:40:54,370 –> 00:40:57,970
So we picked this up at this point in the book. But soon the steeples

626
00:40:57,970 –> 00:41:01,490
called good people all to church and chapel. And away they came

627
00:41:01,570 –> 00:41:04,770
flocking through the streets in their best clothes with their gayest faces.

628
00:41:05,410 –> 00:41:08,850
And at the same time, there emerged from scores of by streets, lanes and nameless

629
00:41:08,850 –> 00:41:12,460
turnings, innumerable people carrying their dinners to the baker

630
00:41:12,460 –> 00:41:15,980
shops. The sight of these poor revelers appeared to interest the

631
00:41:15,980 –> 00:41:19,580
spirit very much, for he stood with Scrooge beside him in a baker’s doorway and

632
00:41:19,580 –> 00:41:23,340
taking off the covers as their bearers passed, sprinkled incense on their dinners from his

633
00:41:23,340 –> 00:41:26,980
torch. And it was very uncommon. It was a very uncommon kind of torch. For

634
00:41:26,980 –> 00:41:30,780
once or twice when he. When they were angry, when there were angry words

635
00:41:30,780 –> 00:41:34,500
between some dinner carriers who had jostled each other, he shed a few

636
00:41:34,500 –> 00:41:38,160
drops of water on them, and their good humor was restored directly,

637
00:41:38,320 –> 00:41:42,120
for they said it was a shame to quarrel upon Christmas Day. And so it

638
00:41:42,120 –> 00:41:45,760
was, God love it, so it was. In time the bell

639
00:41:45,760 –> 00:41:49,160
ceased, and the bakers were shut up. And yet there was a genial shadowing forth

640
00:41:49,160 –> 00:41:53,000
of these dinners and the progress of their cooking in the

641
00:41:53,000 –> 00:41:56,560
thawed blotch of wet above each baker’s oven, where the pavement

642
00:41:56,560 –> 00:42:00,080
smoked as if its stones were cooking too. Is there a

643
00:42:00,080 –> 00:42:03,770
peculiar flavor in what you sprinkle from your torch? Asks Scrooge. There

644
00:42:03,770 –> 00:42:07,450
is my own. Would it apply to any kind of

645
00:42:07,450 –> 00:42:10,970
dinner on this day? Asked Scrooge. To any kindly given

646
00:42:11,370 –> 00:42:14,810
To a poor one most. Why to a poor one most?

647
00:42:15,130 –> 00:42:17,930
Asked Scrooge. Because it needs it most.

648
00:42:19,049 –> 00:42:22,770
Spirit, said Scrooge, after a moment’s thought, I wonder you, of all

649
00:42:22,770 –> 00:42:26,290
the beings in the many worlds about us, should desire to cramp these people’s

650
00:42:26,290 –> 00:42:29,830
opportunities of innocent enjoyment. I. Cried the spirit,

651
00:42:30,140 –> 00:42:33,780
you would deprive them of their means of dining every seventh day, Often the only

652
00:42:33,780 –> 00:42:36,700
day on which they can be said to dine at all? Said Scrooge. Wouldn’t you?

653
00:42:36,860 –> 00:42:40,660
I. Cried the spirit. You seek to close these places on the

654
00:42:40,660 –> 00:42:44,060
seventh day, Said Scrooge. And it comes to the same thing

655
00:42:44,380 –> 00:42:47,900
I seek. Exclaimed the spirit. Forgive me if I am

656
00:42:47,900 –> 00:42:51,020
wrong. It has been done in your name, or at least that of your family,

657
00:42:51,500 –> 00:42:55,340
said Scrooge. There are some upon this earth of

658
00:42:55,340 –> 00:42:59,180
yours, returned spirit, who lay claim to know us, and who do

659
00:42:59,180 –> 00:43:03,020
their deeds of passion, pride, ill will, hatred, envy,

660
00:43:03,020 –> 00:43:06,660
bigotry, and selfishness in our name, who are as strange to

661
00:43:06,660 –> 00:43:10,060
us all and all our kith and kin as if they had never

662
00:43:10,060 –> 00:43:13,620
lived. Remember that, and charge their doings on

663
00:43:13,620 –> 00:43:15,860
themselves, not on us.

664
00:43:17,700 –> 00:43:41,650
And

665
00:43:41,650 –> 00:43:44,650
perhaps it was the pleasure the good spirit had in showing off this power of

666
00:43:44,650 –> 00:43:48,410
his, or else it was his own kind, generous, hearty nature, and his sympathy with

667
00:43:48,410 –> 00:43:52,150
all poor men, that led him straight to Scrooge’s clerk. For there

668
00:43:52,150 –> 00:43:54,950
he went and took Scrooge with him, holding his robe. And on the threshold of

669
00:43:54,950 –> 00:43:58,750
the door the spirit smiled and stopped to bless

670
00:43:58,750 –> 00:44:01,270
Bob Cratchit’s dwelling with the sprinkling of his torch.

671
00:44:02,390 –> 00:44:05,950
Think of that. Bob had but 15 books a week himself. He

672
00:44:05,950 –> 00:44:09,390
pocketed on Saturdays but 15 copies of his Christian name. And yet the ghost of

673
00:44:09,390 –> 00:44:13,070
Christmas present blessed his four-roomed house. Then rose up

674
00:44:13,070 –> 00:44:16,820
Mrs. Cratchit, Cratchit’s wife, dressed out but portly in a

675
00:44:16,820 –> 00:44:20,580
twice-turned gown, but brave in ribbons, which are cheap and make a goodly show

676
00:44:20,580 –> 00:44:24,300
for sixpence. And she laid the cloth, assisted by Belinda Cratchit, second of

677
00:44:24,300 –> 00:44:28,100
her daughters, also brave in ribbons, while Master Peter Cratchit plunged a fork into the

678
00:44:28,100 –> 00:44:31,579
saucepan of potatoes, and getting in the corners of his monstrous shirt

679
00:44:31,579 –> 00:44:35,340
collar, Bob’s private property conferred upon his son in heir honour, in

680
00:44:35,340 –> 00:44:38,860
of the day unto his mouth, rejoiced to find himself so

681
00:44:38,860 –> 00:44:41,740
gallantly attired and yearned to show his linen in the fashionable park.

682
00:44:42,690 –> 00:44:46,450
And now two smaller Cratchits, boy and girl, came tearing in screaming that outside

683
00:44:46,450 –> 00:44:49,610
the bakers they had smelt the goose and known it for their own. And basking

684
00:44:49,610 –> 00:44:53,330
in luxurious thoughts of sage and onion, these young Cratchits

685
00:44:53,330 –> 00:44:57,090
danced about the table and exalted Master Peter Cratchit to the skies, while

686
00:44:57,090 –> 00:45:00,770
he, not proud, although his collars nearly choked him, blew the fire

687
00:45:00,770 –> 00:45:04,490
until the slow potatoes bubbled up, knocked loudly at the saucepan

688
00:45:04,490 –> 00:45:08,090
lid to be let out and peeled. What has ever gotten into your precious father

689
00:45:08,090 –> 00:45:11,610
then? Said Mrs. Cratchit. And your brother Tiny Tim and Martha, weren’t as late last

690
00:45:11,610 –> 00:45:15,360
Christmas Day by a half hour. Here’s Martha, Mother. Said a girl,

691
00:45:15,360 –> 00:45:19,000
appearing as she spoke. Here’s Martha, Mother. Cried the two young Cratchits. Hurrah.

692
00:45:19,000 –> 00:45:22,760
There’s such a goose. Martha, I bless your heart alive, my dear. How

693
00:45:22,760 –> 00:45:26,320
late you are. Said Mrs. Cratchit, kissing her a dozen times, taking off her shawl

694
00:45:26,320 –> 00:45:28,800
and bonnet for her with officious zeal.

695
00:45:30,240 –> 00:45:33,280
We’d a deal of work to finish up last night, replied the girl. I had

696
00:45:33,280 –> 00:45:36,960
to clear away this morning, Mother. Well, never mind, so long as you’re

697
00:45:36,960 –> 00:45:39,600
come, said Mrs. Cratchit. Cratchit. Sit ye down before the fire, my dear, and have

698
00:45:39,600 –> 00:45:43,450
a warm Lord bless ye. No, no. There’s father coming. Cried

699
00:45:43,450 –> 00:45:47,250
the two young Cratchits, who were everywhere at once. Hide, Martha, hide. So

700
00:45:47,250 –> 00:45:50,490
Martha hid herself, and in came Little Bob the father, with at least three feet

701
00:45:50,490 –> 00:45:54,290
of comforter, exclusive of the fringe hanging down before him, and his

702
00:45:54,290 –> 00:45:57,850
threadbare clothes darned up and brushed to look seasonable, and

703
00:45:57,850 –> 00:46:01,690
Tiny Tim upon his shoulder. Alas for Tiny Tim,

704
00:46:02,170 –> 00:46:05,770
he bore a little crutch and had his limbs supported

705
00:46:06,650 –> 00:46:10,410
by an iron frame. We get

706
00:46:10,410 –> 00:46:13,370
a glimpse into Victorian morality here, a little bit

707
00:46:14,410 –> 00:46:17,930
between the Ghost of Christmas Present critiquing Scrooge and

708
00:46:18,330 –> 00:46:21,450
setting him sharply, a right

709
00:46:21,850 –> 00:46:25,530
about vanity and avarice

710
00:46:26,490 –> 00:46:30,170
and what gets placed on the spirit world and what is the responsibility of human

711
00:46:30,170 –> 00:46:33,970
beings? Everything cannot be blamed on God. Some things are just human

712
00:46:33,970 –> 00:46:37,760
beings. And knowing where

713
00:46:37,760 –> 00:46:41,400
that line is is really, really hard, even in the best of times.

714
00:46:41,560 –> 00:46:45,240
The fault of men abound. I can’t remember where it comes from, but there’s a

715
00:46:45,240 –> 00:46:48,440
sign. There’s a fault of men abound.

716
00:46:51,319 –> 00:46:54,720
You know, many times, you know, we’re blaming the devil and we’re blaming God. In

717
00:46:54,720 –> 00:46:58,000
reality, we should just be blaming ourselves. Sometimes we’re just at fault. So, you know,

718
00:46:58,000 –> 00:47:00,600
most of the time, it’s your fault. Exactly, exactly.

719
00:47:03,810 –> 00:47:07,650
Dickens writes at the beginning of. And this is something that really struck me

720
00:47:07,650 –> 00:47:11,490
in reading about the Ghost of Christmas Present in particular. Not so much future and

721
00:47:11,490 –> 00:47:15,210
past, but in the Ghost of Christmas Present. Dickens

722
00:47:15,210 –> 00:47:19,010
is writing at this. At this space of modern men seeking to separate

723
00:47:19,010 –> 00:47:22,570
religion from morality because of everything going on around them and the massive changes they

724
00:47:22,570 –> 00:47:25,970
were going through in the Industrial Revolution. And even in that description of their clothes

725
00:47:25,970 –> 00:47:29,660
and the food, you are at the beginning of

726
00:47:29,980 –> 00:47:33,780
what we in our day would consider extreme poverty. Like,

727
00:47:33,780 –> 00:47:37,380
we would look at that and we would go, those people are poor. But

728
00:47:37,380 –> 00:47:40,940
Dickens is saying they have dignity. And by the way, they were poor back

729
00:47:40,940 –> 00:47:44,700
then, too. But here’s the thing, and this is something that

730
00:47:44,700 –> 00:47:48,540
people who went through the Great Depression. My grandma went through the

731
00:47:48,540 –> 00:47:52,260
Great Depression and she would often talk about this. Everybody

732
00:47:52,260 –> 00:47:56,070
was poor, so nobody knew any different, right? There was

733
00:47:56,070 –> 00:47:59,710
no. Everybody was broke. You know, any rich

734
00:47:59,710 –> 00:48:03,350
people in our day,

735
00:48:05,270 –> 00:48:08,830
we have the same phenomenon. But the

736
00:48:08,830 –> 00:48:12,470
challenge we have is we can now see other people’s

737
00:48:12,470 –> 00:48:16,230
stuff because of social media or because

738
00:48:16,230 –> 00:48:19,940
of people just showing their highlight reels or whatever. And when people have the

739
00:48:19,940 –> 00:48:22,900
opportunity to curate their lives, like if the Cratchits had the opportunity to curate their

740
00:48:22,900 –> 00:48:25,780
lives, they would have done so. They wouldn’t have been any different than any other

741
00:48:25,780 –> 00:48:29,180
human beings. It’s not the tool, it’s the people, right?

742
00:48:33,500 –> 00:48:37,340
And then. And then scrooge was judged. Right. And Scrooge is being judged

743
00:48:37,340 –> 00:48:39,180
by the Ghost of Christmas Present here.

744
00:48:41,900 –> 00:48:45,580
And, and in that judgment he’s being judged in moral

745
00:48:45,580 –> 00:48:49,420
and religious terms. And there’s something about that language that Dickens gets

746
00:48:49,420 –> 00:48:53,160
on you and to. You picked up on this. Exactly. And I

747
00:48:53,160 –> 00:48:56,880
love it that you mentioned this. He doesn’t actually use the biblical, he doesn’t

748
00:48:56,880 –> 00:49:00,440
use biblical language but you know, he’s writing from a Christian context.

749
00:49:01,000 –> 00:49:04,280
And you know, and it’s so subtle that

750
00:49:04,760 –> 00:49:08,600
if you know, you know and if you don’t, it doesn’t matter. The

751
00:49:08,600 –> 00:49:11,560
story still has the impact. And so

752
00:49:13,240 –> 00:49:16,790
the question I have is in the times at which we live now,

753
00:49:19,260 –> 00:49:21,660
the year, the year of whoever,

754
00:49:22,060 –> 00:49:23,580
2022,

755
00:49:26,060 –> 00:49:29,660
could this story get written now like we never had had the

756
00:49:29,660 –> 00:49:33,460
Christmas Carol? Could this story have been written now? Would someone have popped

757
00:49:33,460 –> 00:49:37,060
up with this? As odd as it sounds, I don’t think

758
00:49:37,060 –> 00:49:40,820
so. And I don’t, I go

759
00:49:40,820 –> 00:49:44,620
back. Like if you think about it, the mid-1800s, late 1800s is really where

760
00:49:45,300 –> 00:49:48,580
they started recognizing that 80/20 rule, that

761
00:49:48,580 –> 00:49:52,340
80%, that 80% of the wealth is controlled by 20% of the people.

762
00:49:52,820 –> 00:49:56,580
And today we talk about the 1 percenters, right? Yeah.

763
00:49:56,980 –> 00:50:00,660
So that ratio has been so skewed that I don’t think the

764
00:50:00,660 –> 00:50:04,340
1 percenters truly understand and know. I think that gap has gotten

765
00:50:04,340 –> 00:50:07,900
so much further apart that the 1 percenters look at the

766
00:50:07,900 –> 00:50:11,420
poverty line as, as not

767
00:50:12,060 –> 00:50:15,900
something in which they can impact for the greater good, but they look at

768
00:50:15,900 –> 00:50:19,340
it as something they, if they, if they keep it a status quo, then they

769
00:50:19,340 –> 00:50:22,380
don’t change their status. Right. Whereas back then

770
00:50:23,500 –> 00:50:26,980
of the 80/20 rule, there could have been a solid

771
00:50:26,980 –> 00:50:30,460
50% of those 20 percenters that could have

772
00:50:30,620 –> 00:50:34,220
felt like Scrooge and they, they could change the world, right? Oh yeah, yeah.

773
00:50:34,620 –> 00:50:38,340
So I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t think, I really don’t think so.

774
00:50:38,340 –> 00:50:41,750
I don’t think that we, I don’t think now we, we’ve already talked about on

775
00:50:41,750 –> 00:50:44,190
this particular conversation that,

776
00:50:45,550 –> 00:50:49,150
that there’s a lot of similarities, right? That there’s a lot of things that there’s

777
00:50:49,150 –> 00:50:52,990
a lot of impact similarities. There’s a lot of socio economic

778
00:50:53,310 –> 00:50:57,110
similarities. There’s a lot of those similarities. But I do

779
00:50:57,110 –> 00:51:00,630
think that, and again we’re talking so hypothetical

780
00:51:00,630 –> 00:51:04,430
because the book was in fact written and we are, you know, we

781
00:51:04,430 –> 00:51:07,360
see the impact that the book has had over the last 180 years. You know,

782
00:51:07,360 –> 00:51:10,840
179 years. So if we eliminate that

783
00:51:11,240 –> 00:51:15,040
could somebody have at this point said, oh, I think I can see a

784
00:51:15,040 –> 00:51:18,880
storyline here. I mean, maybe, maybe, but. But knowing what

785
00:51:18,880 –> 00:51:21,520
we know about how it was written, when it was written, and why it was

786
00:51:21,520 –> 00:51:24,840
written, I don’t think that we have the same.

787
00:51:26,440 –> 00:51:29,320
I don’t think we have the same dynamics in, in social

788
00:51:29,640 –> 00:51:33,400
aspects, in, in, even in religious aspects. Like

789
00:51:33,400 –> 00:51:37,200
we talked about earlier. He’s writing from a Christian perspective. In today’s world,

790
00:51:37,760 –> 00:51:40,640
you have people abandoning religion like the Titanic

791
00:51:41,760 –> 00:51:45,480
and just about every organized religion. I’m not suggesting it’s just

792
00:51:45,480 –> 00:51:48,880
a Catholic or a Christian. Oh, no, no, no. This is. Yeah, but just about

793
00:51:48,880 –> 00:51:52,440
every organized religion has people leaving it by the by in

794
00:51:52,440 –> 00:51:56,200
droves. So I think that there’s some dynamics

795
00:51:56,200 –> 00:51:59,800
that we have today that, that, that wouldn’t make for the same

796
00:51:59,800 –> 00:52:03,320
impact that Dickens had in the, in the mid-1800s. Yeah,

797
00:52:03,400 –> 00:52:06,880
I, I just, I, I would think it would be much more difficult to have

798
00:52:06,880 –> 00:52:10,200
that kind of impact now. Can I. Let me just say there was one.

799
00:52:11,320 –> 00:52:14,520
And we don’t have, I don’t, we don’t have to talk about it deeply, but.

800
00:52:15,320 –> 00:52:19,120
Did you ever see the movie the Book of Eli? Oh, yeah.

801
00:52:19,120 –> 00:52:22,960
Huh? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I have this weird association with

802
00:52:22,960 –> 00:52:26,760
that book of how literature could, like, because I think that

803
00:52:27,000 –> 00:52:30,730
that would not have been able to be written 100 years ago. Right. Like. So,

804
00:52:30,730 –> 00:52:34,330
yeah. There’s, like, there’s certain ways in which we can tell these stories

805
00:52:34,330 –> 00:52:38,090
that. Because of what we have available to us and the way that

806
00:52:38,090 –> 00:52:41,290
we view the world and as it changes. But the same

807
00:52:41,290 –> 00:52:44,850
morality, the same principles apply or the same morals apply.

808
00:52:45,090 –> 00:52:48,330
And there’s some, there’s some things there that I think that could have come out

809
00:52:48,330 –> 00:52:51,810
of it if it was written today, but not exactly the same way. I’m not

810
00:52:51,810 –> 00:52:55,580
sure it would have had the longevity that it had. So what do you

811
00:52:55,580 –> 00:52:57,180
think? Do you think it could have been written today?

812
00:53:01,900 –> 00:53:04,140
I think the impulse still is there.

813
00:53:05,980 –> 00:53:09,820
I think the impulse to write it is still there. And by

814
00:53:09,820 –> 00:53:13,300
impulse, I mean you made the observation about the

815
00:53:13,300 –> 00:53:15,340
1% versus the 99%. Okay,

816
00:53:16,860 –> 00:53:20,580
I may quibble with that framing, but let’s use that for the time

817
00:53:20,580 –> 00:53:22,620
being because this sets my idea.

818
00:53:25,220 –> 00:53:28,980
Underneath that framing, you’re going to get certain types of art

819
00:53:29,060 –> 00:53:32,740
and certain types of cultural critiques produced. So

820
00:53:33,060 –> 00:53:36,820
you’re going to get Marvel

821
00:53:36,820 –> 00:53:40,620
movies with Iron Man. That’s what you’re going

822
00:53:40,620 –> 00:53:44,460
to get. And I’m not objecting to Marvel movies. I was a

823
00:53:44,460 –> 00:53:48,260
comic book guy for many, many years. I have a geek streak.

824
00:53:48,970 –> 00:53:52,730
10 miles wide. I’m not objecting to any of those movies. Well, actually I

825
00:53:52,730 –> 00:53:56,170
object to many of them, but it doesn’t matter. Point is, point is

826
00:53:56,730 –> 00:53:59,570
not for this purpose, for the purpose of this thing. I accept all of them.

827
00:53:59,570 –> 00:54:00,410
Wakanda forever.

828
00:54:00,410 –> 00:54:37,720
But

829
00:54:37,720 –> 00:54:41,320
the Woody Allen type films that are small and introspective and

830
00:54:41,320 –> 00:54:44,900
adult, about adult people having adult problems and dealing with them in an adult

831
00:54:44,900 –> 00:54:48,700
way. That

832
00:54:48,700 –> 00:54:53,300
construct

833
00:54:53,300 –> 00:54:58,100
produces

834
00:54:58,100 –> 00:55:01,660
very specific types of entertainment and very specific types of cultural

835
00:55:01,660 –> 00:55:02,100
critiques.

836
00:55:20,030 –> 00:55:23,830
Does the arc of justice, does the arc of morality really bend towards or the

837
00:55:23,830 –> 00:55:27,350
arc of history really bend towards justice? Or are we just

838
00:55:27,350 –> 00:55:30,870
delusional? Right. And I don’t know where, I don’t, I don’t have a good answer

839
00:55:30,870 –> 00:55:34,670
for that. I don’t know. But I think that’s part of this answer. Right.

840
00:55:37,230 –> 00:55:41,030
With those two things combined together, the arc idea, do we

841
00:55:41,030 –> 00:55:44,830
become better morally? And there are certain things that are made during certain times.

842
00:55:48,110 –> 00:55:51,870
I am on the fence because I think that impulse is

843
00:55:51,870 –> 00:55:53,710
still there. Like my immediate gut.

844
00:55:53,870 –> 00:55:58,270
Like

845
00:55:58,430 –> 00:55:59,350
that’s my knee jerk

846
00:55:59,350 –> 00:56:12,860
leadership.

847
00:56:13,100 –> 00:56:15,420
So I think you would get the Christmas literature, but the beats would be different.

848
00:56:16,460 –> 00:56:19,940
That’s true. But to your point, I think part of it, because it might the

849
00:56:19,940 –> 00:56:23,180
same. I understand exactly what you’re saying, because I’m thinking,

850
00:56:24,700 –> 00:56:28,420
not to answer your question, because I think it’s a much longer conversation than we

851
00:56:28,420 –> 00:56:32,070
have time for today. But whether the morals ebb and

852
00:56:32,310 –> 00:56:35,550
whether the morals grow with us or go back, I think there’s an ebb and

853
00:56:35,550 –> 00:56:39,350
flow to it. I really think that circumstances pending

854
00:56:39,990 –> 00:56:43,750
impact the morals of tomorrow. Right. So what I mean by that

855
00:56:43,990 –> 00:56:47,830
is, you know, like you could have a, you know, something on the worldwide

856
00:56:47,830 –> 00:56:51,630
stage that, that you don’t like that happens, changes the morality of the

857
00:56:51,630 –> 00:56:55,360
American people. And then in the very next month, the

858
00:56:55,360 –> 00:56:58,760
president could do something or say something that goes right back, that swings it right

859
00:56:58,760 –> 00:56:59,440
back the other way.

860
00:56:59,440 –> 00:57:08,080
The.

861
00:57:08,480 –> 00:57:12,280
So I think to your point, maybe it could be written if the

862
00:57:12,280 –> 00:57:14,320
right. If the right.

863
00:57:16,560 –> 00:57:20,120
What is the. If the right solutions happened at the right time, so to speak.

864
00:57:20,120 –> 00:57:23,790
Yeah, right. Yeah. But. But literally a year later,

865
00:57:24,110 –> 00:57:27,110
then the answer would be no because of X, Y and Z. That had just.

866
00:57:27,110 –> 00:57:29,550
You know what I mean? So I do think, and I don’t think they had

867
00:57:29,550 –> 00:57:33,190
that back in the mid-1800s. I think that there was some. That, that slow and

868
00:57:33,190 –> 00:57:36,590
steady cog of machinery, of society was

869
00:57:36,830 –> 00:57:40,350
very like. It wasn’t quite as, as

870
00:57:40,430 –> 00:57:44,150
spiked as we have it today. The ebb and flow. The ebb and flow happened

871
00:57:44,150 –> 00:57:47,750
over longer time frames than. Than we have today, I would

872
00:57:47,750 –> 00:57:51,440
agree with. But I think from their perspective, they thought it was spiky.

873
00:57:52,560 –> 00:57:56,160
It may have. Yeah, sure. I mean, I don’t even, I don’t know anybody that

874
00:57:56,160 –> 00:57:59,800
wasn’t alive back then, but. Right. My oldest relative, when I.

875
00:57:59,800 –> 00:58:03,040
That I remember having a conversation with, was born in like

876
00:58:03,200 –> 00:58:06,960
1907. Right. Yeah. Okay. So. Yeah, it was before. It

877
00:58:06,960 –> 00:58:10,560
was way. It was way after that. Even in talking to them and the

878
00:58:10,560 –> 00:58:14,320
stuff that they’ve seen in their lifetime we’ll never experience ever again.

879
00:58:14,620 –> 00:58:18,460
Right. Yeah. So. So there’s, there’s that too. Right. Like the

880
00:58:18,460 –> 00:58:22,060
stuff that, that, that hockey stick effect that we had in technology

881
00:58:22,540 –> 00:58:26,380
is now no longer. It doesn’t exist anymore. So I

882
00:58:26,380 –> 00:58:29,780
think that also plays a role in some of that. So, you know, the

883
00:58:29,780 –> 00:58:33,580
Industrial Revolution was a hockey stick in mechanical engineering, and then technology

884
00:58:33,740 –> 00:58:37,580
came around with the hockey stick and technology and the technology part of it.

885
00:58:37,580 –> 00:58:41,270
But I don’t think we’re ever going to see that again in either leadership, I

886
00:58:41,270 –> 00:58:43,750
don’t know. I would push back on that. I think we are. I think we’re

887
00:58:43,750 –> 00:58:47,230
in the middle of a hockey stick. I think we’re in the middle. Now, let

888
00:58:47,230 –> 00:58:50,710
me be clear. I don’t know if the hockey stick is going down and going

889
00:58:50,710 –> 00:58:53,510
down into the left or going up into the right. We are.

890
00:58:55,430 –> 00:58:58,710
So I’ll, I’ll quantify with that. But I think,

891
00:58:59,670 –> 00:59:02,830
I think, and I’ve been saying this to folks about the Internet, I think we

892
00:59:02,830 –> 00:59:06,590
are at the beginning, all of us right now who were born between, I would

893
00:59:06,590 –> 00:59:10,330
say, 46

894
00:59:10,330 –> 00:59:13,010
or 48, and like

895
00:59:13,650 –> 00:59:15,810
2017, 2018,

896
00:59:17,170 –> 00:59:20,490
we’re all in the middle of a revolution. We’re all at the beginning of, like

897
00:59:20,490 –> 00:59:24,130
a Gutenbergian level revolution with the

898
00:59:24,130 –> 00:59:27,890
Internet, not social media, not the applications built on top of

899
00:59:27,890 –> 00:59:31,730
it. All that stuff doesn’t. Put all that aside, the fact

900
00:59:31,810 –> 00:59:35,440
of being able to have this conversation,

901
00:59:35,680 –> 00:59:39,520
publish it to the world and have people listen to

902
00:59:39,520 –> 00:59:43,320
it multiple times over and get something out

903
00:59:43,320 –> 00:59:46,960
of it and be able to do that with almost zero

904
00:59:46,960 –> 00:59:47,360
cost.

905
00:59:51,760 –> 00:59:55,440
Like, we stare flatly at that because, like,

906
00:59:55,600 –> 00:59:59,040
yeah, okay. We’re like, okay, whatever. But I do,

907
00:59:59,280 –> 01:00:03,010
I think of Gutenberg’s printing press. Like, it was a good.

908
01:00:03,570 –> 01:00:07,210
And you’ll probably all correct me as listeners if I missed this number, but I

909
01:00:07,210 –> 01:00:10,250
want to say it was a good 30 years between the time that the printing

910
01:00:10,250 –> 01:00:14,050
press got really solid and up off of its legs, and then Martin

911
01:00:14,050 –> 01:00:17,329
Luther came along, and then the doors just got blown open off of Europe. And

912
01:00:17,329 –> 01:00:21,010
then it was 500 years of war after that, because everything shifted around.

913
01:00:21,090 –> 01:00:24,770
Right? I’m not saying that we’re on the cusp of 500 years of

914
01:00:24,770 –> 01:00:28,250
war, but I am saying we are on a hockey stick and

915
01:00:28,570 –> 01:00:31,890
we don’t understand. To

916
01:00:31,890 –> 01:00:35,290
paraphrase from the trailer for the new movie Oppenheimer, which I’m going to go see

917
01:00:35,290 –> 01:00:38,650
next year that’s coming out in July. I love Christopher Nolan’s films.

918
01:00:38,890 –> 01:00:42,730
We don’t understand the technology, and we won’t understand it until we use it.

919
01:00:42,730 –> 01:00:46,570
And that’s the same with every freaking technological advantage, of course,

920
01:00:46,570 –> 01:00:50,290
that we’ve ever created. We like, like, we’re met, we’re mucking around with this thing

921
01:00:50,290 –> 01:00:54,020
we call artificial intelligence right now. So we

922
01:00:54,020 –> 01:00:54,420
don’t understand.

923
01:00:54,580 –> 01:01:12,700
Yeah,

924
01:01:12,700 –> 01:01:15,700
but you’re talking about, again, the printing press literally took

925
01:01:16,500 –> 01:01:20,330
the production of literature and just went, whoops, right up the, right up

926
01:01:20,330 –> 01:01:23,970
the scale. Yeah. Now instead of, And I think what you’re talking about

927
01:01:23,970 –> 01:01:27,490
is foundational change, meaning we have this

928
01:01:27,490 –> 01:01:31,330
foundational technology. Okay. We’re going to manipulate it as we go to

929
01:01:31,330 –> 01:01:35,010
make it better or to make it worse, depending on what, you know, whatever. But,

930
01:01:35,010 –> 01:01:38,810
but the, the, the stuff that we saw in the, in the Industrial Revolution

931
01:01:38,810 –> 01:01:42,610
and the tech boom, that true hockey stick effect of

932
01:01:42,610 –> 01:01:46,250
impact to society, I don’t see, I don’t think we’re going to see that

933
01:01:46,790 –> 01:01:50,550
in, in any way, shape or form unless it’s some sort of, I mean,

934
01:01:50,550 –> 01:01:54,190
unless it’s the reverse. Unless it’s a downward hockey stick that I can foresee

935
01:01:54,190 –> 01:01:57,830
some apocalyptic thing that happens there where technology

936
01:01:57,910 –> 01:02:01,430
is wiped off the face of the planet. We don’t have it any longer overnight.

937
01:02:01,590 –> 01:02:04,950
Yeah, right. Like some apocalypse like that.

938
01:02:05,190 –> 01:02:09,030
Sure. Then you’re talking a different kind of hockey stick. Yeah, yeah. Then it goes

939
01:02:09,030 –> 01:02:12,020
down into the left. Yeah, but I, I, but I really do. And I think,

940
01:02:12,250 –> 01:02:15,210
I think that, I think that some of the stuff that you’re talking about with,

941
01:02:15,690 –> 01:02:19,450
you know, in this back to the storyline here, back to the story of

942
01:02:19,450 –> 01:02:23,210
the Christmas Carol is I think that they

943
01:02:23,290 –> 01:02:27,010
had that ability to see that hockey stick. He was living that

944
01:02:27,010 –> 01:02:30,530
hockey stick through the Industrial Revolution. Right. So

945
01:02:30,530 –> 01:02:34,250
somebody today, maybe that book could have been written during the tech boom

946
01:02:34,570 –> 01:02:38,090
because that’s the same hockey stick effect and seeing the differences in

947
01:02:38,090 –> 01:02:41,860
society and morality happening right in their, Right in front of

948
01:02:41,860 –> 01:02:44,460
their eyes. Yeah, I see where you’re going. Okay. On a day to day basis

949
01:02:44,460 –> 01:02:47,380
like this today that we’re with the stuff that we’re seeing on a day to

950
01:02:47,380 –> 01:02:49,540
day. I don’t think, I just don’t think the book could have been written. I

951
01:02:49,540 –> 01:02:52,740
don’t think it could have been written on today’s

952
01:02:52,820 –> 01:02:56,620
platforms. Okay. All right, well, let me. Weirdly enough, normally

953
01:02:56,620 –> 01:02:59,580
I don’t come off as an optimist on my own podcast. Normally I’m taking the

954
01:02:59,580 –> 01:03:02,500
pessimistic spot. But now we’re going to flip it. I’m going to come off as

955
01:03:02,500 –> 01:03:05,940
optimistic. I’m going to say, in 500 years, the hockey stick

956
01:03:06,020 –> 01:03:09,410
will be up and to the right. I’m going to take the optimistic tone.

957
01:03:09,960 –> 01:03:11,480
I’m going to have faith in humanities.

958
01:03:14,200 –> 01:03:16,760
I’m going. I’m going to do this because I think. And the reason why I’m

959
01:03:16,760 –> 01:03:20,440
going to do this is very simple. Remember I said the impulse is still there.

960
01:03:22,200 –> 01:03:25,480
I think the. I think the human impulse

961
01:03:25,720 –> 01:03:29,480
towards productive

962
01:03:30,920 –> 01:03:34,720
growth that improves humanities, I think that impulse

963
01:03:34,720 –> 01:03:38,470
is still there. Now, the strength of it, we can argue

964
01:03:38,470 –> 01:03:41,950
about that. The. Where that is, where that’s actually

965
01:03:41,950 –> 01:03:45,790
postulated and we’re focusing a lot on technology. I think it might be

966
01:03:45,790 –> 01:03:49,430
more in the. In the quote, unquote, in the real world with real people

967
01:03:49,430 –> 01:03:52,470
doing real things. I think it might be more in there and solving really hard

968
01:03:52,470 –> 01:03:56,190
problems, which is why sort

969
01:03:56,190 –> 01:03:59,830
of building in the physical world is very interesting to me.

970
01:03:59,830 –> 01:04:03,310
Because you’re solving. You’re solving for real things like the power grid. I’ll use that

971
01:04:03,310 –> 01:04:05,990
as an example. If you want to solve for the power grid, that’s a real

972
01:04:05,990 –> 01:04:09,670
problem that, like, has to be solved by real human beings. And nothing on

973
01:04:09,670 –> 01:04:12,950
Twitter is going to help you solve the power grid problems. Right. You know, you

974
01:04:12,950 –> 01:04:15,790
actually have to, like, figure out a different way to pour concrete and a different

975
01:04:15,790 –> 01:04:19,630
metal to put in electrical generators. And you have to figure out real hard problems.

976
01:04:19,630 –> 01:04:22,910
Right. That will move humanity forward.

977
01:04:24,830 –> 01:04:28,390
And I still think human beings are capable of that. I do. I fundamentally think

978
01:04:28,390 –> 01:04:32,070
they are. I’m not disagreeing with you. All I’m saying is the story as

979
01:04:32,070 –> 01:04:35,600
it’s written now. Yeah. It just wouldn’t look the same. It just wouldn’t look the

980
01:04:35,600 –> 01:04:38,720
same. Even like I said earlier. And you can rewind this and listen to it.

981
01:04:38,720 –> 01:04:42,160
Like I said earlier, I think they could still get the same messages across. I

982
01:04:42,160 –> 01:04:45,120
think there’d be some underlying. But I don’t think they’d be able to do it

983
01:04:45,120 –> 01:04:47,880
the same way. Yeah. I don’t think that you’re going to have this vision of

984
01:04:47,880 –> 01:04:51,720
somebody petrified of some spirit visiting them to change

985
01:04:51,720 –> 01:04:55,520
their way of thinking. Yeah. Okay. The way that we know

986
01:04:55,600 –> 01:04:59,270
the things that we know today and how driven we are now, if you, if

987
01:04:59,270 –> 01:05:02,910
you, if you come to me and say, you know, my computer comes

988
01:05:02,910 –> 01:05:06,350
alive and the AI and my computer starts dictating my life

989
01:05:06,830 –> 01:05:10,030
again. Like, if you want to go back to a movie that I think is,

990
01:05:10,350 –> 01:05:13,950
this movie was so underrated, nobody even knows about

991
01:05:13,950 –> 01:05:17,710
it. It’s a movie called Jacksy. Oh. And. And it’s

992
01:05:17,710 –> 01:05:21,310
about. It’s about a guy’s phone and I ruining his life.

993
01:05:22,110 –> 01:05:25,710
So if we want to take it from that perspective, but

994
01:05:25,710 –> 01:05:29,320
still try to get the underlying morality behind it, I then, sure,

995
01:05:29,320 –> 01:05:32,280
maybe it could be written, but it would. It would look different, is all I

996
01:05:32,280 –> 01:05:36,000
was saying. Yeah, no, I. I do agree. Would

997
01:05:36,000 –> 01:05:38,720
look different. That I absolutely agree with. I do. I do agree that it would

998
01:05:38,720 –> 01:05:42,200
look. Different, but I also think that it would need to come from a.

999
01:05:42,680 –> 01:05:46,040
Like, I still stand by what I said. I still think it need. He was

1000
01:05:46,040 –> 01:05:49,680
right dead smack in the middle of the Industrial revolution and that 80/20

1001
01:05:49,680 –> 01:05:53,360
rule being built that was right around that timeframe, that, that 80/20

1002
01:05:53,360 –> 01:05:57,130
rule, I think it was 1896 or something like that was the first mention of

1003
01:05:57,130 –> 01:06:00,930
the 80/20 rule, if I remember correctly. So it was just shortly

1004
01:06:00,930 –> 01:06:04,770
after, you know, Dickens’s death that. That they started thinking like

1005
01:06:04,770 –> 01:06:08,570
this. So I still think there has to be something like that that would

1006
01:06:08,570 –> 01:06:12,370
drive. It is getting at. Okay, all right. No, I think

1007
01:06:12,370 –> 01:06:16,130
that. I think that thesis has weight. Absolutely. I think

1008
01:06:16,130 –> 01:06:18,970
that thesis has weight. It is. I’ve never got a chance to be positive on

1009
01:06:18,970 –> 01:06:19,770
my own podcast.

1010
01:06:23,000 –> 01:06:24,600
I never get a chance to take the positive side.

1011
01:06:25,800 –> 01:06:39,240
Speaking

1012
01:06:39,240 –> 01:06:42,840
of the social conditions and the Industrial revolution and the 80/20 rule,

1013
01:06:43,000 –> 01:06:46,680
let’s sort of turn the corner here and read our last portion here

1014
01:06:46,760 –> 01:06:50,080
of A Christmas Carol. And by the way, I would recommend going out and picking

1015
01:06:50,080 –> 01:06:53,860
this up and reading it to your kids and making

1016
01:06:53,860 –> 01:06:56,820
it part of whatever your holiday tradition is,

1017
01:06:57,780 –> 01:07:01,540
because, again, it is, regardless of

1018
01:07:01,540 –> 01:07:04,260
how we think about it or how we’re talking about it here on the podcast,

1019
01:07:04,820 –> 01:07:08,020
it is something that I. It is a document, I believe, that is

1020
01:07:08,100 –> 01:07:11,060
fundamentally foundational to

1021
01:07:12,180 –> 01:07:15,700
understanding who you are as a human being and understanding who you are

1022
01:07:16,020 –> 01:07:19,830
in a much larger context and getting this inside of your kids. It’s

1023
01:07:19,830 –> 01:07:23,590
a really good thing. Also, it definitely makes you kind of

1024
01:07:23,590 –> 01:07:27,270
look inward for sure. It does. Absolutely. Absolutely.

1025
01:07:28,870 –> 01:07:32,710
So our last piece here from A Christmas Carol. This

1026
01:07:32,710 –> 01:07:35,910
is the. This is the

1027
01:07:36,070 –> 01:07:39,750
Phantom. So this is going to be the Ghost of Christmas Future showing,

1028
01:07:40,390 –> 01:07:43,910
showing Scrooge. The next thing,

1029
01:07:44,930 –> 01:07:47,650
Scrooge and the Phantom came to the presence of this man just as the woman

1030
01:07:47,650 –> 01:07:51,210
with a heavy bundle slunk into the shop. But she had

1031
01:07:51,210 –> 01:07:54,850
scarcely entered when another woman, similarly laden, came in, too. And she was closely followed

1032
01:07:54,850 –> 01:07:57,330
by a man in faded black who was no less startled by the sight of

1033
01:07:57,330 –> 01:07:59,970
them, that they had been upon the recognition of each other,

1034
01:08:02,770 –> 01:08:05,730
After a short period of blank astonishment in which the old man with a pipe

1035
01:08:05,730 –> 01:08:09,010
had joined them, they all three burst into laughter. Let the char woman alone to

1036
01:08:09,010 –> 01:08:11,680
be first. Cried she who had entered first. Let the laundress alone to be the

1037
01:08:11,680 –> 01:08:15,280
second, and let the undertaker’s man alone to be third. Look here, Old Joe,

1038
01:08:15,280 –> 01:08:18,680
here’s a chance. If we hadn’t all three met here without meaning it,

1039
01:08:19,160 –> 01:08:22,080
you couldn’t have met in a better place, said Old Joe, removing his pipe from

1040
01:08:22,080 –> 01:08:25,440
his mouth. Come into the parlor. You were made free of it long ago, you

1041
01:08:25,440 –> 01:08:28,560
know, and the other two ain’t strangers. Stop till I shut the door of the

1042
01:08:28,560 –> 01:08:32,400
shop. Ah, how it screaks. There ain’t such a rusty bit of metal in the

1043
01:08:32,400 –> 01:08:36,000
place as its own hinges, I believe, and I’m sure there’s no such old

1044
01:08:36,000 –> 01:08:39,740
bones here as mine. We’re all suitable to our calling.

1045
01:08:39,740 –> 01:08:43,340
We’re all well matched. Come to the parlor. Come to the parlor. The parlor was

1046
01:08:43,340 –> 01:08:47,140
the space. Behind the screen of rags, the old man raked the fire together

1047
01:08:47,140 –> 01:08:50,340
with an old stair rod at having trimmed his smoky lamp, for it was night.

1048
01:08:50,580 –> 01:08:54,340
With the stem of his pipe, he put it in his mouth. While he

1049
01:08:54,340 –> 01:08:56,700
did this, the woman who had already spoken threw her bundle on the floor and

1050
01:08:56,700 –> 01:09:00,340
sat down in a flaunting manner on a stool, crossing her elbows on her knees

1051
01:09:00,420 –> 01:09:03,940
and looking with bold defiance at the other two. What odds, then? What odds, Miss

1052
01:09:03,940 –> 01:09:07,379
Dilber? Said the woman. Every person has a right to take care of themselves. He

1053
01:09:07,779 –> 01:09:11,499
always did. That’s true. Indeed, said the laundress.

1054
01:09:11,499 –> 01:09:14,739
No man more so. Why, then, don’t stand staring as if you were afraid of

1055
01:09:14,739 –> 01:09:17,259
the woman. Who’s the wiser? We’re not going to pick holes in each other’s coats,

1056
01:09:17,259 –> 01:09:21,059
I suppose. No, indeed, says Miss Dilber and the man together. We should hope

1057
01:09:21,059 –> 01:09:24,419
not. Very well, then, cried the woman. That’s enough. Who’s the worst for the loss

1058
01:09:24,419 –> 01:09:28,099
of a few things like these? Not a dead man, I suppose. No,

1059
01:09:28,099 –> 01:09:31,419
indeed, said Miss Dilber, laughing, if you wanted to keep him after he was dead.

1060
01:09:31,419 –> 01:09:35,219
A wicked old screw pursued the woman. Why, wasn’t he natural in his lifetime?

1061
01:09:35,660 –> 01:09:38,260
If he had been, he’d have had somebody to look after when he was struck

1062
01:09:38,260 –> 01:09:41,900
with death, instead of lying gasping out his last

1063
01:09:41,980 –> 01:09:44,460
there alone by himself.

1064
01:09:46,460 –> 01:09:50,060
That’s the truest word that was ever spoke, said Miss Dilbert to judgment on

1065
01:09:50,060 –> 01:09:53,780
him. I wish it was a little heavier, one, replied the woman. And

1066
01:09:53,780 –> 01:09:57,540
it should have been. You may depend on it. If I could have laid

1067
01:09:57,540 –> 01:10:00,380
my hands on anything else. Open that bundle, old Joe, and let me know what

1068
01:10:00,380 –> 01:10:03,060
the value of it is. Speak out plain. I’m not afraid to be the first,

1069
01:10:03,060 –> 01:10:05,740
nor afraid for them to see it. We knew pretty well that we were helping

1070
01:10:05,740 –> 01:10:09,420
ourselves before we met here. I believe so it’s no sin. Open the bundle,

1071
01:10:09,420 –> 01:10:13,180
Joe. But the gallantry of her friends would not allow this. And the man

1072
01:10:13,180 –> 01:10:17,020
in the faded black mounting the breach first produced his plunder. It was not extensive.

1073
01:10:17,020 –> 01:10:19,900
A seal or two, a pencil case, a pair of sleeve buttons, and a brooch

1074
01:10:19,900 –> 01:10:22,900
of no great value were all they were

1075
01:10:23,300 –> 01:10:26,940
severely they were severally examined and appraised by old

1076
01:10:26,940 –> 01:10:30,640
Joe, who chalked the sums he was disposed to give for

1077
01:10:30,640 –> 01:10:33,040
each upon the wall and added them to a total where he found there was

1078
01:10:33,040 –> 01:10:36,800
nothing more to come. That’s your account, Said Joe. And what I wouldn’t give another

1079
01:10:36,800 –> 01:10:40,600
six pence if it was boiled for not doing it. Who’s next? Miss

1080
01:10:40,600 –> 01:10:44,400
Dilbert was next. Sheets and towels, a little wearing apparel, two old fashioned

1081
01:10:44,400 –> 01:10:48,040
silver teaspoons, a pair of sugar tongs and a few boots. Her account was stated

1082
01:10:48,040 –> 01:10:51,560
on the wall in the same manner. I always gives too much to ladies. It’s

1083
01:10:51,560 –> 01:10:54,930
a weakness of mine, and that’s the way I ruin myself, said Old Joe. That’s

1084
01:10:54,930 –> 01:10:57,530
your account. If you ask me for another penny and make it an open question,

1085
01:10:57,530 –> 01:11:01,130
I’ll repent of being so liberal and knock off half a crown. And now

1086
01:11:01,130 –> 01:11:04,890
undo my bundle, Joe, said the first woman. Joe went down on his

1087
01:11:04,890 –> 01:11:07,930
knees for the greater convenience of opening it, and having unfastened a great many knots,

1088
01:11:07,930 –> 01:11:11,570
dragged out large and heavy roll of some dark stuff. What do you call this?

1089
01:11:11,570 –> 01:11:15,290
Said Joe? Bed curtains. Ah, returned the woman, laughing

1090
01:11:15,290 –> 01:11:19,050
and leaning forward on her crossed arms, bed curtains. You don’t mean to say you

1091
01:11:19,050 –> 01:11:22,870
took him down, rings and all, with him lying there? Said Joe. Yes, I do,

1092
01:11:22,870 –> 01:11:26,710
replied the woman. Why not? You were born to make your fortune, said Joe, and

1093
01:11:26,710 –> 01:11:30,110
you’ll certainly do it. I certainly shan’t hold my hand when I get anything in

1094
01:11:30,110 –> 01:11:32,470
it by reaching it out for the sake of such a man as he was,

1095
01:11:32,630 –> 01:11:36,390
I promise you, Joe, returned the woman coolly. Don’t drop the oil upon the

1096
01:11:36,390 –> 01:11:40,190
blankets now. His blankets? Asked Joe. Who else do you think? Replied

1097
01:11:40,190 –> 01:11:42,950
the woman. He isn’t likely to take cold without him, I dare say.

1098
01:11:43,910 –> 01:11:47,390
Hope he didn’t die of anything catching, eh? Said old Joe, stopping at his work

1099
01:11:47,390 –> 01:11:50,900
and looking up. Don’t you be afraid of that, returned the old woman. I ain’t

1100
01:11:50,900 –> 01:11:53,540
so fond of his company that I loiter about him for such things if he

1101
01:11:53,540 –> 01:11:56,540
did. Ugh. You may look through that shirt till your eyes ache, but you won’t

1102
01:11:56,540 –> 01:12:00,340
find a hole in it, nor a threadbare place. It’s the best he had, and

1103
01:12:00,340 –> 01:12:03,900
a fine one, too. They’d have wasted it if it hadn’t been for me.

1104
01:12:04,220 –> 01:12:07,700
What do you call wasting of it? Asked old Joe. Putting it on to be

1105
01:12:07,700 –> 01:12:11,540
buried, to be sure, replied the old woman with a laugh. Somebody was fool

1106
01:12:11,540 –> 01:12:15,110
enough to do it. But I took it off again. If calico ain’t good enough

1107
01:12:15,110 –> 01:12:18,710
for such a purpose, it isn’t good enough for anything. It’s quite as becoming to

1108
01:12:18,710 –> 01:12:21,910
the body. He can’t look uglier than he did

1109
01:12:22,630 –> 01:12:23,510
in that one.

1110
01:12:34,230 –> 01:12:36,230
I laugh with a sense of irony because

1111
01:12:38,630 –> 01:12:41,840
a couple of problems occur to me that are actually not in the script. A

1112
01:12:41,840 –> 01:12:43,040
couple of solutions occur to me in

1113
01:12:46,240 –> 01:12:47,960
my time. I

1114
01:12:47,960 –> 01:12:56,880
don’t

1115
01:12:56,880 –> 01:13:36,340
know

1116
01:13:36,340 –> 01:13:38,580
what Tom’s experience has been with this, but

1117
01:13:40,340 –> 01:13:43,300
it has always struck me as a thing

1118
01:13:44,900 –> 01:13:48,500
that is quite an example

1119
01:13:50,340 –> 01:13:54,100
and stands as parallel to what we just read in that clip

1120
01:13:54,180 –> 01:13:56,420
there, a piece of the book

1121
01:13:58,060 –> 01:14:01,420
they were fighting over, they were trying to make money

1122
01:14:01,820 –> 01:14:04,300
off of the last pieces of Ebenezer Scrooge.

1123
01:14:05,500 –> 01:14:08,460
Rather than putting it into a dumpster, they were taking it to a pawn shop,

1124
01:14:09,260 –> 01:14:11,740
figuring out what it was worth, which was less than nothing,

1125
01:14:12,940 –> 01:14:16,580
and then taking what they could take as

1126
01:14:16,580 –> 01:14:19,900
Ebenezer was lowered into the cold, cold ground.

1127
01:14:25,750 –> 01:14:29,390
This is an example of the Marxist critique of

1128
01:14:29,390 –> 01:14:32,470
capitalism taken to its logical end

1129
01:14:33,430 –> 01:14:35,270
all the way to the end of life.

1130
01:14:37,030 –> 01:14:40,710
A friend of mine used to quip in college that communism only works in one

1131
01:14:40,710 –> 01:14:43,110
place, and that’s in heaven, where they don’t need it.

1132
01:14:46,230 –> 01:14:50,040
And maybe he was correct. But here on Earth,

1133
01:14:50,040 –> 01:14:53,680
where we all are still living, who’s going to watch out for your

1134
01:14:53,680 –> 01:14:57,200
stuff? Becomes a huge issue towards the end of your life.

1135
01:14:58,320 –> 01:15:01,360
And it’s really going to be interesting. We talk about our own time. We just

1136
01:15:01,440 –> 01:15:05,160
came through that in our last little segment there where we talked about, could this

1137
01:15:05,160 –> 01:15:08,760
book have been written? Now I’m very curious to see

1138
01:15:08,760 –> 01:15:12,520
who’s going to get scrubbed off the Internet as we all wander towards our

1139
01:15:12,520 –> 01:15:16,330
80s and 90s, who came up under this thing,

1140
01:15:17,290 –> 01:15:20,090
or are we just gonna want to be more realized,

1141
01:15:21,050 –> 01:15:24,010
more Internet junk that should probably be put in a dumpster?

1142
01:15:24,970 –> 01:15:28,570
Because after we’re gone, and I’ll speak for myself on this one,

1143
01:15:28,650 –> 01:15:32,410
I do have it written into my will that I be removed from the Internet.

1144
01:15:33,210 –> 01:15:35,450
I don’t want to be around.

1145
01:15:36,650 –> 01:15:40,500
I’m here and then I’m gone. Kind of

1146
01:15:40,500 –> 01:15:44,300
like Ferris Bueller at the end of Ferris Bueller’s Day Off. Show’s

1147
01:15:44,300 –> 01:15:47,980
over. Go home. Go home. Are you still here? Why are you

1148
01:15:47,980 –> 01:15:51,660
hanging around? Get out. There’s no

1149
01:15:51,660 –> 01:15:54,500
more show here. I’m not here anymore.

1150
01:15:55,940 –> 01:15:59,620
The essence of me isn’t even here anymore. And we get this in A Christmas

1151
01:15:59,620 –> 01:16:02,500
Carol. We get this in this piece. It’s so funny you say that, because there

1152
01:16:02,500 –> 01:16:06,100
are. There’s ways that you can set social media,

1153
01:16:06,180 –> 01:16:09,830
like, get. Like, there’s a. On. Upon death, my control

1154
01:16:09,830 –> 01:16:13,430
goes to so and so. Like, there’s ways to do that. I found that

1155
01:16:13,430 –> 01:16:16,870
fascinating and I never really gave it any thought until you just literally just said

1156
01:16:16,870 –> 01:16:20,550
that. I really do. I really

1157
01:16:20,550 –> 01:16:24,190
want to be available after death, like on social media, stuff like that.

1158
01:16:24,190 –> 01:16:27,670
And is anybody going to look for you? Yeah,

1159
01:16:27,670 –> 01:16:30,550
that’s beyond your. Beyond your family, maybe.

1160
01:16:31,750 –> 01:16:35,310
Pardon me? Beyond your

1161
01:16:35,310 –> 01:16:38,990
family, maybe. I mean, your family, intimate people

1162
01:16:38,990 –> 01:16:42,670
who actually cared about you in your Life. Are the

1163
01:16:42,670 –> 01:16:45,310
600 of your best friends on Facebook gonna look for you?

1164
01:16:46,110 –> 01:16:49,550
Yeah, I. You know, unless you’re one of those people that.

1165
01:16:49,790 –> 01:16:53,390
Who’s like a Tony Robbins or something like that, right.

1166
01:16:53,390 –> 01:16:57,230
Where you. Maybe you’re in your. Your, you know,

1167
01:16:57,550 –> 01:17:01,390
some of your. Some of your lectures or lessons or whatever should

1168
01:17:01,390 –> 01:17:04,790
stay forever or what, I don’t know. And I’m just picking somebody who, sure, to

1169
01:17:04,790 –> 01:17:08,350
your point earlier, who everybody would know, right? Everybody in the world knows who Tony

1170
01:17:08,350 –> 01:17:10,510
Robbins is, whether you like him or not or don’t like them or not. That

1171
01:17:10,510 –> 01:17:14,110
doesn’t matter. But to your point, me, lonely, old, small

1172
01:17:14,670 –> 01:17:18,510
peon, me, like, like, who the hell’s gonna care if I go?

1173
01:17:18,510 –> 01:17:22,190
Like, right. Well.

1174
01:17:22,430 –> 01:17:26,200
And then the other dynamic here is to make other people responsible for

1175
01:17:26,200 –> 01:17:30,000
your. The detrius you leave across the Internet from everything that

1176
01:17:30,000 –> 01:17:31,880
you’ve done after you’re gone.

1177
01:17:34,520 –> 01:17:38,080
At best, I can see it as a burden to others who never

1178
01:17:38,080 –> 01:17:41,840
asked for it and who don’t care. And at worst, and that’s at

1179
01:17:41,840 –> 01:17:44,200
best, at worst, I see it,

1180
01:17:47,240 –> 01:17:50,920
I see it being used by people with

1181
01:17:51,000 –> 01:17:54,830
less than honorable intentions to market things to people that they don’t

1182
01:17:54,830 –> 01:17:58,630
need. And I don’t want to have my face showing up in the

1183
01:17:58,630 –> 01:18:02,150
background of some marketing campaign 500 years from now to sell

1184
01:18:02,150 –> 01:18:05,550
soap. Sorry. Nope.

1185
01:18:06,590 –> 01:18:10,270
I mean, Google, Google doesn’t. Google doesn’t get the final vote.

1186
01:18:11,310 –> 01:18:15,110
No, again, like I said, I literally gave it not one single thought

1187
01:18:15,110 –> 01:18:18,870
until, until you just said that this is. And you

1188
01:18:18,870 –> 01:18:22,230
read that it’s going to plague me. That’s going to play. I’m going to stay

1189
01:18:22,230 –> 01:18:25,570
up at night now. Going to be thinking about this for the next 18 days.

1190
01:18:25,570 –> 01:18:29,410
Like. It’S the little things.

1191
01:18:29,970 –> 01:18:33,770
Little things. I do. It’s little things. Well,

1192
01:18:33,770 –> 01:18:34,290
I mean,

1193
01:18:39,810 –> 01:18:43,570
How do we. Well, I mean, we’re turning

1194
01:18:43,570 –> 01:18:46,810
the corner here anyway. How do we, how do we stay on the path? How

1195
01:18:46,810 –> 01:18:50,510
do we, how do we, as leaders. I mean, we know the

1196
01:18:50,510 –> 01:18:54,230
big lesson from the Christmas Carol is leaders can change. Right?

1197
01:18:54,230 –> 01:18:57,990
You can turn that corner. Right. You can come

1198
01:18:57,990 –> 01:19:00,070
to something different. Right?

1199
01:19:02,230 –> 01:19:05,110
How do leaders stay on the path with this tiny little book?

1200
01:19:06,950 –> 01:19:10,430
I think, I think one of the things that, for me anyway, I think one

1201
01:19:10,430 –> 01:19:13,990
of the things that, that it’s. That

1202
01:19:14,470 –> 01:19:18,230
you have to care. Right? Like that’s, that’s the, under the other

1203
01:19:18,230 –> 01:19:21,790
underlying message here. Right? Right. There has to be a

1204
01:19:21,790 –> 01:19:25,550
sense and sensibility of your humanity when it comes to interacting with

1205
01:19:25,550 –> 01:19:29,190
other people, regardless of what position you hold in the company, whether

1206
01:19:29,190 –> 01:19:32,870
it’s mid level manager, whether it’s a

1207
01:19:32,870 –> 01:19:36,590
vp, whether it’s a CEO. The C level, you

1208
01:19:36,590 –> 01:19:40,390
have to, you, that’s like, that’s like the old adage of like that

1209
01:19:40,390 –> 01:19:44,230
powerful CEO of the Fortune 100 company that knows the name of the

1210
01:19:44,230 –> 01:19:47,660
janitor when he walks in the building. That kind of stuff,

1211
01:19:48,700 –> 01:19:51,660
as much as you don’t think so or you may not think so

1212
01:19:52,220 –> 01:19:56,060
matters like that, that, that human connection where that

1213
01:19:56,060 –> 01:19:59,660
guy and I worked for a guy, by the way,

1214
01:19:59,900 –> 01:20:03,100
and he was, he was a senior level vp.

1215
01:20:03,580 –> 01:20:07,220
And I remember walking in the door one day

1216
01:20:07,220 –> 01:20:10,540
to the office and I was a, I was a sales manager for him and

1217
01:20:10,540 –> 01:20:14,210
he was a, he was the senior VP of sales and marketing and Fortune 100

1218
01:20:14,210 –> 01:20:17,730
company. Yeah. I remember walking in the door one day and he had the

1219
01:20:17,730 –> 01:20:21,490
vacuum in his hand and he was vacuuming the office. And I

1220
01:20:21,490 –> 01:20:24,850
walked in, I said, Tom, what are you, what are you doing? He goes, the

1221
01:20:25,250 –> 01:20:29,049
guy who normally does this, he’s not feeling well. He’s in the bathroom. I think

1222
01:20:29,049 –> 01:20:32,770
he might actually be throwing up. And I went, okay, so the floor

1223
01:20:32,770 –> 01:20:34,450
doesn’t get vacuumed today. No big deal.

1224
01:20:36,450 –> 01:20:39,890
I, too, felt bad that he didn’t feel well, but I didn’t have the forethought

1225
01:20:39,890 –> 01:20:43,410
that I’m gonna help this guy with his job because

1226
01:20:43,650 –> 01:20:47,370
I don’t want him feeling like he might get. I don’t even want

1227
01:20:47,370 –> 01:20:50,850
him thinking about the fact that if he doesn’t do his job, he gets fired.

1228
01:20:51,090 –> 01:20:53,930
And I was like, whoa. That was a. That was a big thing for me

1229
01:20:53,930 –> 01:20:57,610
to see that somebody of that stature, in my opinion, of that

1230
01:20:57,610 –> 01:21:01,250
stature at that time, because now I don’t really think that much about a senior

1231
01:21:01,250 –> 01:21:05,090
VP of sales and marketing, but whatever. Anyway, that’s another. That’s

1232
01:21:05,090 –> 01:21:08,530
a story for different problems. That’s a different. That’s a different podcast episode. Exactly. But.

1233
01:21:08,530 –> 01:21:12,330
But at that time moment in my life, I had thoughts of grandeur of that

1234
01:21:12,330 –> 01:21:16,050
role. I had. I had a certain vision of what that role

1235
01:21:16,050 –> 01:21:19,650
and what I thought that they felt about people underneath them. And he

1236
01:21:19,650 –> 01:21:23,450
changed it with a. Just that one interaction. Yeah. I went,

1237
01:21:23,930 –> 01:21:27,210
this guy actually gives to,

1238
01:21:27,610 –> 01:21:31,410
you know, rats patoot about this guy. He really cares about this guy as

1239
01:21:31,410 –> 01:21:35,130
a person in their titles, in the company. Didn’t matter to him.

1240
01:21:35,460 –> 01:21:39,100
Yeah. And I was like, so that’s kind of like, you know, the. Again,

1241
01:21:39,100 –> 01:21:42,460
some of the underlying stuff that I take out of this is that it’s. It’s

1242
01:21:42,460 –> 01:21:46,260
about. It’s about. And it’s also about not judging their

1243
01:21:46,260 –> 01:21:49,940
status. Right. It’s like, so it’s about caring them as an individual person

1244
01:21:49,940 –> 01:21:53,780
and not caring about them based on what they do or say or can or

1245
01:21:53,780 –> 01:21:57,380
do or can or say for you. Like that. That role in life

1246
01:21:57,380 –> 01:22:01,220
is just being a person. Just being a person. Right?

1247
01:22:01,750 –> 01:22:05,430
It’s. I think it’s there too. I think. I think. And I think

1248
01:22:05,830 –> 01:22:09,590
a question about, like, how can leaders maintain this

1249
01:22:09,590 –> 01:22:13,350
throughout the course of the year? Because people have this weird tendency to shift their

1250
01:22:13,350 –> 01:22:16,870
mindset come the holiday season, right? And all of a sudden it’s like.

1251
01:22:16,950 –> 01:22:20,390
It’s like, you know, it’s like, you know, November. November

1252
01:22:20,390 –> 01:22:23,990
15th comes, and all of a sudden it’s all about family and friends and everyone’s

1253
01:22:23,990 –> 01:22:27,750
Kumbaya, blah, blah, blah, and where does this go the rest

1254
01:22:27,750 –> 01:22:31,350
of the year? Which, by the way. And we can definitely talk about

1255
01:22:31,350 –> 01:22:35,150
this on another podcast, because I have my own, like, why do we have

1256
01:22:35,150 –> 01:22:38,750
Black History Month? It should be black history twelve months a year. Why do we

1257
01:22:38,750 –> 01:22:42,430
have a Native American Heritage Month? It should be Native American Heritage all year round.

1258
01:22:42,590 –> 01:22:46,390
Oh boy. We’re going to talk about that next year. But,

1259
01:22:46,390 –> 01:22:50,030
but when we isolate, when we isolate these things, then we

1260
01:22:50,030 –> 01:22:53,750
only draw focus on them for a short period of time and it’s unnecessary,

1261
01:22:53,750 –> 01:22:57,500
right? Yeah. Same rule applies here. November 15th

1262
01:22:57,500 –> 01:23:00,940
comes and it’s all about family and friends and holidays and gatherings and how wonderful

1263
01:23:01,020 –> 01:23:04,020
life is. But we don’t think about it the rest of the year. And we

1264
01:23:04,020 –> 01:23:07,860
have to, we have to. It’s, it’s the, it’s

1265
01:23:07,860 –> 01:23:11,300
the, you know, it’s the after effect of the

1266
01:23:11,300 –> 01:23:14,940
holidays and the five months of bills. You know that’s stupid song,

1267
01:23:14,940 –> 01:23:18,740
right? Well, your employees still have those five months

1268
01:23:18,740 –> 01:23:22,440
of bills. Like you’re, you may not because you have a C level

1269
01:23:22,440 –> 01:23:25,040
position and you just, you know, you spend whatever you want to spend and it

1270
01:23:25,040 –> 01:23:28,760
doesn’t impact your budget because you’re part of the 1%. Whatever, fine, I’m

1271
01:23:28,760 –> 01:23:32,320
happy for you. But that’s not the reality for that. For if you’re that

1272
01:23:32,320 –> 01:23:35,800
Fortune 100 CEO, that’s not the reality for 90% of your

1273
01:23:35,800 –> 01:23:39,240
employees. So coming to work on

1274
01:23:39,240 –> 01:23:43,000
January 1st or 2nd or 3rd or whatever, when the holidays are all done and

1275
01:23:43,000 –> 01:23:46,830
over with and now you’re starting to buried, bury

1276
01:23:46,830 –> 01:23:50,630
them in deep with KPIs and goals for the next year

1277
01:23:50,630 –> 01:23:54,230
and making sure that we’re hitting these numbers and make, you know, you just

1278
01:23:54,230 –> 01:23:57,990
switch that whole dynamic and you have the ability to

1279
01:23:57,990 –> 01:24:01,710
not do that. Yeah. You have the ability to look at this

1280
01:24:01,710 –> 01:24:05,550
and go, I want you to have goals and, you know,

1281
01:24:05,550 –> 01:24:09,270
and KPIs for next year. But I want them presented in a way

1282
01:24:09,270 –> 01:24:13,120
that makes you think that I give a rat’s ass about

1283
01:24:13,120 –> 01:24:16,800
you. Right. Like, so that you have, you have control over that.

1284
01:24:16,960 –> 01:24:20,680
So why not do it? I think it’s very simple. I really do. I

1285
01:24:20,680 –> 01:24:24,480
think being able to take that quote, unquote Christmas spirit and measure it all year

1286
01:24:24,480 –> 01:24:28,000
round is simple. It’s about humanity and

1287
01:24:28,400 –> 01:24:31,680
making sure that they, they know that you see them as a person.

1288
01:24:32,000 –> 01:24:35,840
They are not just a number to you. They’re not just driven metrics.

1289
01:24:35,840 –> 01:24:39,520
They are, they are a human being that matters to you as a

1290
01:24:39,520 –> 01:24:43,250
human being. When you ask somebody how their day is and they answer you and

1291
01:24:43,250 –> 01:24:46,850
you’re already thinking about something else while they’re answering you, that’s a problem.

1292
01:24:47,090 –> 01:24:50,850
Stay in the moment when they, when, when, when I ask, I, I,

1293
01:24:50,850 –> 01:24:54,530
I’ve had hundred thousands of people work for me, and when I ask

1294
01:24:54,530 –> 01:24:57,730
a person, how’s, how’s it going? How’s everything going? And they go, oh, my God,

1295
01:24:57,730 –> 01:25:01,490
my dad’s in the hospital. My mind is not checked out. And thinking,

1296
01:25:01,490 –> 01:25:03,970
all right, this person is just going to blubber on for the next three minutes,

1297
01:25:03,970 –> 01:25:06,320
and I can move on, say, I’m really sorry to hear that, and move on.

1298
01:25:06,710 –> 01:25:10,230
Or I hope they get better and move on. No, you sit there and go,

1299
01:25:10,710 –> 01:25:13,350
do you need to be here today? Do you need the day off?

1300
01:25:14,470 –> 01:25:18,310
Would it benefit you to go home and deal with this? Does your

1301
01:25:18,310 –> 01:25:22,110
father need you at the hospital with him? Is that there’s so much humanity that

1302
01:25:22,110 –> 01:25:25,910
can come out of your mouth right in that moment, and you 100%

1303
01:25:25,910 –> 01:25:29,550
change the dynamics of how that person thinks. Of you, and then

1304
01:25:29,550 –> 01:25:32,870
maybe the arc of morality does move up into the right.

1305
01:25:34,600 –> 01:25:38,240
Yeah. I’ve never had a person work for me. I’ve

1306
01:25:38,240 –> 01:25:41,080
fired people. Hasan that would still give me good reviews

1307
01:25:43,560 –> 01:25:47,400
because even in firing them, I care about them as a person. It’s not about,

1308
01:25:47,640 –> 01:25:50,720
it’s not about you as a person. It’s about your performance. Maybe this job is

1309
01:25:50,720 –> 01:25:54,360
not the right job for you, but God damn it, I will be the first

1310
01:25:54,360 –> 01:25:57,800
person to say, I’ll help you find one that is right for you.

1311
01:25:58,830 –> 01:26:01,950
If you find one that is right for you and you need somebody to stand

1312
01:26:01,950 –> 01:26:04,310
up for you and say, this person is a good person, I will do it.

1313
01:26:04,310 –> 01:26:08,070
I don’t care. I fired you because you couldn’t perform. Yep. You know,

1314
01:26:08,070 –> 01:26:11,790
like, that’s it. Just because, Just because one

1315
01:26:11,790 –> 01:26:15,150
plus one equals two does not mean that we throw out the threes.

1316
01:26:15,390 –> 01:26:15,790
Right?

1317
01:26:19,310 –> 01:26:23,150
Well, and I think, I think you’re, I think you’re hitting on something that

1318
01:26:23,150 –> 01:26:26,880
is. And I do think it

1319
01:26:26,880 –> 01:26:30,680
is, it is meaningful. I do think that it

1320
01:26:30,680 –> 01:26:34,120
is meaningful that Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year’s all occur at

1321
01:26:34,280 –> 01:26:37,680
pretty much this. I think that’s, that’s significant. I do not think that that is

1322
01:26:37,680 –> 01:26:41,080
insignificant. I think that’s significant. But I think it’s significant

1323
01:26:41,880 –> 01:26:45,560
for the reasons you’re talking about. And I would

1324
01:26:45,560 –> 01:26:48,120
add to that, that

1325
01:26:49,970 –> 01:26:53,530
gratitude, being awed and being

1326
01:26:53,530 –> 01:26:57,090
renewed are something that should happen, are things that should

1327
01:26:57,090 –> 01:27:00,850
happen at every point in time during the year.

1328
01:27:01,490 –> 01:27:05,250
And if you think of it from a holiday perspective. Right. The next holiday on

1329
01:27:05,250 –> 01:27:08,850
the calendar that brings up any of those emotions or thought processes. Easter.

1330
01:27:09,250 –> 01:27:12,930
Right. So what did we do? We invented one to put in the middle.

1331
01:27:12,930 –> 01:27:16,490
Right. Valentine’s Day. We were like, we can’t go this far without

1332
01:27:16,490 –> 01:27:20,000
having. Let’s invent one in there. Let’s put that one in there.

1333
01:27:20,390 –> 01:27:24,070
That’s what we did. Right. Like, so we tried to use holidays

1334
01:27:24,070 –> 01:27:27,550
to do that, and we just kept adding them to the calendar to try to

1335
01:27:27,550 –> 01:27:31,310
make this a continuation of that feeling. And it didn’t work.

1336
01:27:31,310 –> 01:27:34,870
It didn’t work. Yeah. Sweetest Day is also in there somewhere,

1337
01:27:35,030 –> 01:27:38,070
but that’s in October. I think something like that. I don’t know.

1338
01:27:39,270 –> 01:27:42,470
No, I think you’re correct. I think you’re onto something. And I think that

1339
01:27:44,870 –> 01:27:48,150
examining the impact that we have on each other and an individual and at a

1340
01:27:48,150 –> 01:27:51,850
corporate level is the larger message of the Christmas

1341
01:27:51,850 –> 01:27:53,650
Carol. It’s also.

1342
01:27:57,810 –> 01:28:01,410
Fundamentally, I think what you’re talking about in a real way

1343
01:28:01,890 –> 01:28:05,570
is the. Is part of the. Begins the

1344
01:28:05,570 –> 01:28:09,210
part of the steps out of this. This grinding

1345
01:28:09,210 –> 01:28:13,050
nihilism that we are under. That

1346
01:28:13,050 –> 01:28:16,530
irks me and creates the meaning

1347
01:28:16,530 –> 01:28:20,210
crisis and has undergirded some of the many of the conversations I’ve had this year

1348
01:28:20,210 –> 01:28:23,770
on the podcast with people. We’ve

1349
01:28:23,770 –> 01:28:27,210
got to get back to meaning.

1350
01:28:28,490 –> 01:28:31,890
And if we have to leverage

1351
01:28:31,890 –> 01:28:35,490
Christmas to do that, fine. I’m fine with that. I’m fine with

1352
01:28:35,490 –> 01:28:39,250
that. If we have to leverage Valentine’s Day to do that, I’m fine with

1353
01:28:39,250 –> 01:28:42,580
that. If we have to leverage a month to do that,

1354
01:28:43,620 –> 01:28:46,660
I’m fine with that. Now, here’s where I’m not fine with it.

1355
01:28:47,380 –> 01:28:50,700
I’m not finding that leveraging, being used for

1356
01:28:50,700 –> 01:28:54,260
venal or avaristic purposes to market stuff,

1357
01:28:54,500 –> 01:28:57,780
that’s where I’m not fine with that. I get off the train there,

1358
01:28:58,420 –> 01:29:02,260
I’m not fine with it. When we’re having flat conversations

1359
01:29:02,820 –> 01:29:06,190
that are ideologically driven and we have no room for

1360
01:29:06,190 –> 01:29:09,830
nuance, I’m not on board with that at all. And

1361
01:29:09,830 –> 01:29:13,550
as leaders, it’s our responsibility to figure out what we’re on board with

1362
01:29:13,710 –> 01:29:17,190
and what we’re not on board with and be very clear about where the. Where

1363
01:29:17,190 –> 01:29:20,630
the separation is between those two things and fight like hell for

1364
01:29:20,630 –> 01:29:24,030
meaning. Fight like hell for it.

1365
01:29:25,470 –> 01:29:29,270
And when you come to the end of a year. And by the way,

1366
01:29:29,270 –> 01:29:32,930
this does matter, because this is a cycle, right? None of us will ever

1367
01:29:32,930 –> 01:29:36,770
live in 2022 again like, it’s over, it’s

1368
01:29:36,770 –> 01:29:40,010
done. And none of us yet have lived in

1369
01:29:40,010 –> 01:29:43,810
2023. You know, I

1370
01:29:43,810 –> 01:29:47,609
published a shorts episode, and as of the recording of this podcast,

1371
01:29:47,609 –> 01:29:50,610
that will be yesterday. So post a shorts episode yesterday so you can go listen

1372
01:29:50,610 –> 01:29:54,370
to that basically said, you know, or I basically

1373
01:29:54,370 –> 01:29:57,650
put out the point that think of all the problems that didn’t happen this year

1374
01:29:58,020 –> 01:30:01,180
that we were all screaming about that we thought were going to happen. You know,

1375
01:30:01,180 –> 01:30:02,900
nuclear war didn’t happen this year.

1376
01:30:05,700 –> 01:30:09,180
We all didn’t burn off the planet in an apocalyptic ecological

1377
01:30:09,180 –> 01:30:12,940
nightmare. We’re all still here. Plan

1378
01:30:12,940 –> 01:30:16,700
didn’t burn up. An asteroid didn’t hit the

1379
01:30:16,700 –> 01:30:20,300
planet this year, though there were several asteroids that came really

1380
01:30:20,300 –> 01:30:24,060
close. And for those of us who are

1381
01:30:24,060 –> 01:30:27,700
maybe more religious minded, Jesus didn’t return his long anticipated

1382
01:30:27,700 –> 01:30:31,520
return to 2022. Not, not this

1383
01:30:31,520 –> 01:30:35,280
year. So not being flippant, I’m saying

1384
01:30:35,280 –> 01:30:38,880
the things didn’t happen. What did happen,

1385
01:30:39,680 –> 01:30:43,400
what did happen this year was that leaders, public and

1386
01:30:43,400 –> 01:30:47,000
private, small and large, with position and status, to Tom’s

1387
01:30:47,000 –> 01:30:50,680
point, and those without, made decisions

1388
01:30:50,680 –> 01:30:52,880
to move the rock forward.

1389
01:30:55,040 –> 01:30:58,640
There were some leaders that made the decision to move the rock backward, or try

1390
01:30:58,640 –> 01:31:02,440
to anyway. But I believe in the aggregate of the small

1391
01:31:02,440 –> 01:31:05,600
people. I believe in the power of that 80%,

1392
01:31:06,160 –> 01:31:09,760
not the power of the 80% in sort of a Marxist revolutionary kind of way.

1393
01:31:09,920 –> 01:31:12,320
I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about

1394
01:31:12,320 –> 01:31:16,120
solutions. Yeah, there you go. Exactly. It is

1395
01:31:16,120 –> 01:31:17,760
that accountability factor. It’s also.

1396
01:31:20,720 –> 01:31:24,480
It’s also that 80% who get up every day and do

1397
01:31:24,560 –> 01:31:27,720
listen to their employees and do

1398
01:31:28,920 –> 01:31:32,360
vacuum the floor when it needs to be vacuumed so somebody doesn’t lose their job.

1399
01:31:33,560 –> 01:31:37,280
They do go the extra mile and deliver the food when someone needs to

1400
01:31:37,280 –> 01:31:40,680
have it delivered. And they are unsung and untalked about

1401
01:31:41,160 –> 01:31:44,600
and usually not thanked. So

1402
01:31:45,160 –> 01:31:48,360
on this podcast, the last new one of this year of

1403
01:31:48,360 –> 01:31:51,400
2022, I would like to thank those leaders.

1404
01:31:53,440 –> 01:31:57,240
Thank them for their time and for the effort that they put in and for

1405
01:31:57,240 –> 01:32:00,640
all of the work that they have done during this year.

1406
01:32:01,200 –> 01:32:04,480
It is not something that is ignored or not seen.

1407
01:32:05,600 –> 01:32:09,280
And during this holiday season, I want to recommend that you pull the folks

1408
01:32:09,280 –> 01:32:12,080
close to you who will remember you at the end of the day

1409
01:32:12,960 –> 01:32:16,600
and honor those people as much as they have

1410
01:32:16,600 –> 01:32:17,690
honored you.

1411
01:32:21,370 –> 01:32:24,810
And enjoy Christmas Carol and enjoy your holiday season. Always have to be downer.

1412
01:32:24,810 –> 01:32:28,650
Enjoy your holiday season. Have fun. The eggnog and the gifts

1413
01:32:28,970 –> 01:32:32,730
and the giving, the traveling, the eating is the really

1414
01:32:32,730 –> 01:32:36,530
big thing. Watch your eating. Watch. Watch your eating. Don’t watch that. Eat

1415
01:32:36,530 –> 01:32:40,250
is my I. This is. This is what I live for. This is the part

1416
01:32:40,250 –> 01:32:41,050
that I live for.

1417
01:32:42,410 –> 01:33:02,900
I

1418
01:33:02,900 –> 01:33:06,580
want to thank Tom for coming on the Leadership Lessons for the Great Books Podcast.

1419
01:33:06,580 –> 01:33:08,940
Always great to have you, Always fun to be here.

1420
01:33:13,570 –> 01:33:21,570
Tell

1421
01:33:21,810 –> 01:33:26,570
all

1422
01:33:26,570 –> 01:33:37,980
your

1423
01:33:38,300 –> 01:33:43,380
family,

1424
01:33:43,380 –> 01:33:46,540
tell all your friends, and tell the leaders in your life that you know

1425
01:33:47,420 –> 01:33:50,699
that need to be listening to this show. That this show exists.

1426
01:33:52,060 –> 01:33:55,700
By the way, if you want to get started on the leadership path yourself or

1427
01:33:55,700 –> 01:33:59,420
you know some people who need to go on the leadership path, HSCT

1428
01:33:59,420 –> 01:34:03,150
Publishing, the home company of Leadership Toolbox and Leadership

1429
01:34:03,150 –> 01:34:06,950
Lessons from the Great Books Podcast can help you and your team

1430
01:34:07,030 –> 01:34:07,670
do that.

1431
01:34:08,390 –> 01:34:37,460
You

1432
01:34:37,460 –> 01:34:40,860
don’t like videos, you don’t like training, but you really like the podcast.

1433
01:34:41,100 –> 01:34:44,300
Well, I would also recommend reading a book.

1434
01:34:44,860 –> 01:34:48,460
Matter of fact, I’d recommend reading my most recent book, 12 Rules for

1435
01:34:48,460 –> 01:34:50,780
Leaders, the foundation of Intentional Leadership.

1436
01:34:51,270 –> 01:35:02,390
Finally,

1437
01:35:02,390 –> 01:35:06,110
of course we’re on YouTube just like everybody else is. We’d love to have

1438
01:35:06,110 –> 01:35:09,750
you help us grow the YouTube channel so like and subscribe to the video

1439
01:35:09,830 –> 01:35:13,430
version of this podcast on the HSCT Publishing

1440
01:35:13,430 –> 01:35:16,694
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1441
01:35:16,694 –> 01:35:20,520
Publishing. Or you can search for Leadership Toolbox and hit

1442
01:35:20,520 –> 01:35:21,520
the subscribe button.