Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis w/Christen Blair Horne & Jesan Sorrells

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Hello, my name is Jesan Sorrells, and

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this is Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast,

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episode number 175.

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People who live in both the secular world

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in America and other places, and the world, and

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in the world that attends the Christian church every Sunday like

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clockwork, are equally struggling in our

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current era with theology.

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The American journalist and blogger many years ago, Andrew Breitbart

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once and many years ago, infamously quipped that,

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quote, politics is downstream from culture.

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But on this podcast, we hold more to an

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expansion of that maxim that politics is actually

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downstream from theology. Or if

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you are more of a secular mindset,

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the term would be worldview. What a

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person believes in or doesn’t believe in impacts

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how a person does everything. Thoughts and beliefs

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precede actions. I can know what you believe with some

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relative certainty by watching what you do,

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but the question is not, can I know what you believe? The question is, quite

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frankly, do you know what you believe?

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And if challenged, questioned, or confronted, can you mount a

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defense, an apologetic, if you will, of

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your beliefs? The

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sad fact of our current era is that many people, secular and

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Christian alike, do not know what they believe, and even fewer can mount a

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robust defense of such beliefs if they are challenged, confronted, or

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questioned. And this is not a problem that is, quote unquote, solving

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itself with people’s access to more information

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via the Internet. Instead,

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collectively, we seem to be opting secular and Christian alike,

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to sticking to the platforms, the influencers, and the ideas we know

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without taking the time to burst our cognitive and emotional bubbles

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and go to neighborhoods where there might be people who

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might not agree. Theology,

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the study of the headwaters of reality itself,

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has always presented challenges for the thinking and the unthinking, the

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serious, the unserious, the agnostic, and even the

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believer. And so today, in this episode

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of the podcast, we will address themes from a book listed

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25 years ago as one of the 100 Christian

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books that changed the century by William J. Peterson and Randy

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Peterson. We will be looking at the book Mere

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Christianity by C.S. lewis.

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Leaders. We are deeply enmeshed in an era where

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not only are leadership decisions being questioned, but

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also the very fact of leadership itself

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is on trial.

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And today we will be joined by. In our

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final episode of this, I believe it’s

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our fourth season of the show. We’ll be

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joined today by Kristen

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B. Horn, rejoining us from episode number 165.

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So look at that, 10 episodes later, she’s back. Hi, Kristen. How you doing?

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Hello. I’m well. How are you? Good.

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Here we’ve Moved from. From science fiction into this.

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Right. So I don’t. And very. Two different

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worldviews. Oh, radically different. Right, Radically

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different worldviews. Like H.G. wells and then C.S. lewis. Forget it. Those

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just. Those two guys couldn’t even have a conversation, but they knew they

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couldn’t have a conversation. And so it was going to be very

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polite, but it was going to be very formalized because they were both English.

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Very formalized. They were going to have stiff upper lips and all that.

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And then they were going to get the hell out of there. But at least

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they’d be civil, right? Exactly. They had. They had. They could

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be in the same room. Right? Civil. Right. It’s only the alighting

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of a civil society, which I did just see

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something very briefly before I came on to. Came

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onto the. Onto the show, before we started

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talking, um, somebody was writing something about

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Gen Zers not owing any. Saying that they don’t owe

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anything to anybody, and thus they don’t have to be like, polite or

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something like that. Like, that’s a thing now. I didn’t know that was a thing.

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Okay. And. And that’s fine, except interesting

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perspective. Right? Except that when, like, when, like you take that

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perspective, then okay, now the rules of

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social norming have all, like, shifted. And so I’m free

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then to download on you, and then you can’t cry or,

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or like, call me names or anything, like, because now we’re in. Now we’re in.

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We’re in this whole, like, weird, like, thing of man against man

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and all against all. It’s very Hobbesian.

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Very interesting. Very, very like man. Not even

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man in the arena, because that was a. It was a positive thing from Teddy

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Roosevelt. It’s very much. It’s very much like a gladiator match.

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And like all of life can’t be a gladiator match,

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which I think C.S. lewis would probably agree with that. Right.

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Okay. So we’ve got this book. We’ve got

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this thing here, Mere Christianity. We had our open

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there. We did not do an intro episode

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on Mere Christianity. And we will be

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revisiting C.S. lewis’s books. He’s one of

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the folks who. I’ve been sort of

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not really hesitant. That’s not really the term

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I sort of want to treat with the respect

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due the. The. The material.

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But I also want to. Because he wrote

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so much, I want to take the time to like, actually figure out

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what the things are that we. That we want to discuss. And so in a

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couple years, we’ll do the screwtape letters. I will. I will. Probably

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screwed my courage to the post enough to do that one. And I keep wandering

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around in vicious circles. That hideous strength.

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His science fiction was not that good.

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It just. It just wasn’t. Clive, I’m sorry. I could do

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Chronicles of Narnia. And then that’s.

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And that’s the other thing. So, like, if we do Chronicles of Narnia, though,

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I gotta do it before that Netflix thing drops. Whatever abomination

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that’s gonna be. Well, or around the time. Around that time.

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That could work. Yeah, because the lion is the

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whole thing. Yeah, Like, I’ve always said that. Like, when

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they were doing the movie a few years ago, many years ago now. Yeah, yeah,

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yeah. I remember the old.

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I told my kids this and they didn’t. They didn’t believe me that it was

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a thing. But remember, the old Chronicles are on your show that was on pbs,

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and. I did not watch that one, but my husband did. Okay. All right.

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So, like, I watched that when I was a kid on the random Sunday

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afternoon on PBS when we actually. Actually had the. Had the

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television on. Right. Which was kind of amazing. Right. And like, the

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lion looked like, quite frankly, trash.

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Not to be too. Not to finer point on it is. A potato sack

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painted orange. It wasn’t. It wasn’t Jim for

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the main. It wasn’t Jim Henson’s workshop. They weren’t. They weren’t hiring that

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guy. It was pbs. I was like, well, we can’t get Jim Henson.

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We get the intern down the street.

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And so, you know, and. And I read.

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I read Chronicles of Narnia all the way up to.

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I believe I stopped. I tapped out of this at the Silver Chair when I

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was a kid. Now my son

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and my daughters all have read all of the books, which is kind of

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amazing. Through no help of my own. Well, I shouldn’t say through no

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help. Like, I’ll read. I read. Like

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my. My youngest boy, he’s 8. So when he was like 7, he went through

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all of them in like a year. Like, we bought him like, the big, like.

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Yeah. Volume or whatever. And my wife started reading them and my daughter started reading

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them to him. And then I was like, well, I have no idea what’s going

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on in any of these books, so I’m just going to read it. And I

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didn’t. I’ll just move the narrative along for you. And I would always tell him,

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I have no idea what’s happening in this book right now. And he’s like, oh,

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yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. You have no idea. Just read. Just shut up and

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dance. Shut up and dance, Dad,

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I don’t want to hear your problems, but we did get to the end of

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all the books, so he’s done the whole series. Yeah.

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And then the movies are interesting. They’re

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an interesting phenomenon because, again, you got the

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Lion. Right. But then I don’t think anything else worked after that. They did.

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Yeah. I felt like lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe was done very

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well. And then did they do Prince

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Caspian next, which was atrocious.

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And then they did Voyager, the Dawn Traitor, which was my favorite.

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That’s my favorite book. Also atrocious

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because they had lost Disney’s money. So,

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yeah, lion, the Witch in the Wardrobe was one of the. The only one they

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did. Well. Well, now you got that. That. What’s her name who did

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the Barbie movie, Gerwig or whatever. Oh, okay.

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She’s the one that’s involved with the Netflix show. I have no hope. I. I

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have no faith. Like, I heard her name was attached to it, and I was

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like, oh, no, this is going to be. I just

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don’t. I don’t know. I. Yeah,

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it’s. I don’t know anything about Greta, but if you’re not.

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I almost feel like if you’re not willing to take

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this material in. I’m trying to figure

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out how to say this. If you’re not willing to acknowledge the

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beliefs that are so clearly underpinning this

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fantastically, fantastical children’s story

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and you’re not willing to keep those in your representation of

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this material, don’t do it. Right. It would

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be like taking an Islam folktale and trying to take

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all of the. All of the Islam faith out of it

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so that you could secularize it. Like, don’t. Don’t do that either.

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Don’t do that. I’m gonna. I’m gonna. I’m gonna make the point that Bill Maher

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would make if a Westerner

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did that. Well, okay, so. So the reason

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Westerners won’t take all the Muslim pieces out of an Islamic

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tale and will bend over backwards to

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make sure that that Islamic tale is actually told in an Islamic.

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In a manner that honors the Islamic culture

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is because Salman Rushdie had a fatwa quote on

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his head for writing a book that tried to do that.

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And by the way, people have tried to actually kill him. And so

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creatives will bend over

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backwards because Islam, well, as a

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religion, believes that if you don’t bend over backwards,

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we will kill you. Whereas

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Christians stopped killing people for

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not bending over Backward represented Christianity

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probably about 300 years ago. We pretty much knocked

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that off. Like, we’re pretty much done with that now. Don’t get me

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wrong, people will kill in the name of Christ, and people will

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still kill people for whatever, but at a. At a

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mass level. Like, no, no, Greta Gerwig is not

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worried for as much as she may say. And I’m sure she hasn’t said

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anything. I’m sure they put in. I’m sure Netflix has put a gag on her

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like nobody’s business. But I’m sure that if she were ever

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interviewed, she would never actually be worried about some

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radical pastor coming and actually blowing her up,

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because we stopped doing that as a religious

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entity body right about 300 years ago. We just, we

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just knocked that off. Islam,

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say what you will, continues to do that

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for a whole variety of reasons that we don’t need to get into now.

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Kristen didn’t say any of that. I said that if you want to come for

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me, that’s fine. It’s my show. But this is the

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facts. And by the way, I’m not the first person to point this out as

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I preface my entire commentary there. Bill Maher has

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also made the exact same point, so go bother him.

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That’s one. So they’re going to strip all the stuff out.

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Glenn Close, or what’s your name, one of those older actors is going to

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be the voice of the lion or whatever. Is this going to be.

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Yeah, it’s going to be that. Yeah, it’s going to be her. Okay. I love

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Glenn Close. But.

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To your point, it doesn’t honor the source material. No, it doesn’t.

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It reminds me of. This was actually. I don’t know how long ago it was,

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but they made a movie about Tolkien,

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like a sort of biography biopic sort of thing. And I

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was like, no, there’s no way that they’re going to actually honor

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Tolkien’s, like, beliefs and his, his history, and they’re

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just going to talk about the war and they’re going to secularize it completely.

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The man was deeply Catholic, and that’s. Yes, completely.

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Like Lord of the Rings is riddled with it. You just can’t. You can’t

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get away from it. So. So that. Yeah. Anything.

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I also have no. Long story short, I also have no

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faith in this, in this new iteration

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of C.S. lewis’s work, which is why you should cover it.

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Because there’s totally.

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If you, if you think. And this is why I think.

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What is. What’s it called? Chronicles of Narnia. Is actually good

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children’s stories is because it doesn’t talk down to them.

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Right. Yeah. And adults are still gleaning and

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learning so much from these stories.

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Like, I. I have no doubts whatsoever that

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once we start reading it to my daughter and my children, that will

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be like, I forgot this was in there. Like, oh, my gosh. Can you believe

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that? That’s right there. Yeah. You just.

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Well, it. Well, okay, so that goes into our first question here, which

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is like, what do you know about Mere Christianity? Right, so CS Lewis wrote a

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lot, as I said in the opening there. And he wrote a lot

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in a lot of different genres because he had a lot of different interests. He

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was. He was multifaceted in that

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sort of way with his talent. It’s just sort of. It was like mercury. It’s

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spread all over the floor. And a linguist. Right. Is that what he taught

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at Ox? Was it Oxford? So, again, I did not go into the

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background of him. I probably should have gone a little bit in there. I do

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know that Tolkien was a linguist, and a File for sure was a linguist.

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Yeah. But as far as. As far as Lewis goes

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and, you know, you can look that up while you’re. While I’m rambling incoherently

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here. It’s fine. I do need to get one of those Joe

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Rogan setups where we, like, bring the screen in with, like, the details. I

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do need to get that. And then, like, flip between the two while we’re actually

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recording live. I do need to do. Okay, yeah. English Literature at

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Oxford. There you go. English Literature, right. And so an Oxford guy, by the

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way, HG Wells would have respected whole Oxford thing

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because that would have been English class, you know. So Lewis was Irish.

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He was born in Ireland. Well, okay, anyways. I mean,

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part of the United Kingdom. Sorry. I mean,

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I know y’ all fought, like, a lot, and you held it against

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English for a long time, but still, like, you

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gotta understand, for all the rest of us out here, we don’t know the difference.

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Tragic, but we don’t know the difference. We know that you, like, have, like, an

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Irish lilt or Scottish brogue or whatever, but that’s about as much as we.

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We’re Americans. Well, I don’t know. I know that Irish, if you. If you’re

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speaking English with your, like, normal Scottish

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rogue or Irish wilt, you can’t understand the English.

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I know that much. Did you ever see the movie. Did you ever see the

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movie Train Spotting? No. Go

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watch that movie. There’s a great sequence in there. With Ewan McGregor.

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Talking about the Scottish and the English while they’re,

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like, walking around outside trying to get fresh air. Because they’re drug addicts,

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so they don’t care about fresh air. They’re

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heroin addicts just walking. Oh, my God. Outside trying to get fresh air.

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Okay.

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There’s a whole rant that he goes on about, like,

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other people hate the English. I don’t. Because they’re just

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wankers. We were colonized by wankers. Like, come on,

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Scotland, for God’s sakes. So I think there’s a lot of that in that

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sort of part of the world that goes along with that. But I don’t. I

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don’t necessarily think back to Lewis. I don’t necessarily think that he held that,

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you know, against the English. I mean, clearly he didn’t. He went to Oxford. Like,

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yeah, yeah. I don’t know how culturally Irish he was. Right.

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So. But yeah, I guess back to the question as for how much

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I know about or what do I know about mere Christianity. I

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grew up. I was, you know, born and raised Protestant. We were

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non denominational, and so I always kind of knew about mere Christianity, but I

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actually never read it. I remember we read it as. As a church,

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but then again, I. I don’t. I’m sure

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my youth group did something like, did like a sermon series or something

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about it, but I didn’t actually get to read it. My copy is my

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dad’s. Oh. And he bought it. Oh, my gosh, the

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stupid camera’s not working. Anyway. Oh, there it is. My dad. Oh, was it there?

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It was a little bit there. Yeah. Come on. Anyway, it’s my

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dad’s and it’s. It has like the name of our church on it.

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And it was for 10 bucks. And I was like, what the heck? This is

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crazy. So it has some of his notes and questions in there. So I thought

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that was funny. Other than that, what I know is that. Oh. And I always

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held it kind of on a pedestal of like how

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remarkable it was and how amazing it was and how clear

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and. And very clear and

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helpful. But this is actually the first time I’ve read

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it. And then mine has a forward again that

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was talking about how originally it was delivered as a series of talks. And I

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think I had heard that before over the radio. Yep.

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Right after the war. During the war, actually. During

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World War II. Yeah. 1942, I believe. When he’s

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talking about the war in the past, he’s talking about World War I. Even more

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devastating for English than World War II was, if you correct, which is if you

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can imagine that to think about. Well, yeah, my, one of my

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music professors was one of the first people to tell me that that World War

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I basically eradicated a

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generation of English men. So we just covered a whole

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bunch of books around war and warfare and war making. We

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just came off of that on this, in this season.

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And one of the books that we covered was John Keegan,

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the English historian. He wrote a book called the First

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World War. And one of the points that he makes,

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and it’s a one volume sort of gallop through

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first through the First World War. One of the points, not one of the points.

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The, the casualty numbers, if you ever read that book, are

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insane. They lost. The British lost 60. The British

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Expeditionary Force lost 60,000 men at the Somme

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at one battle. 1

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60,000 guys. And this is because of a combination

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of the machine gun,

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barbed wire. They weren’t using gas quite

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just yet at the first battle of the Somme, the second battle of the song

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they did, but not the first one. So it was a combination of sort

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of the trench warfare, the embedding of the

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Germans in the cliffs and in the trenches on the

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Western Front, and then

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the, the,

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the belief that had been held by a certain class

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of people in, in, in Europe overall, but

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in England in particular, that in

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order to be successful, one must honor one’s

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commitments, even to the point of

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death. And so

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C.S. lewis was part of that.

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Tolkien, who we just mentioned, was part of that.

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Both those guys saw things in the trenches of World War I that,

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to paraphrase from no country from old men, it made an impression on them,

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sure as hell did. And along with Ernest

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Hemingway, we covered A Farewell to Arms. And it

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was a generation, you’re right, it was a generation of young men. Who.

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Just didn’t quite know where to put all that.

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And then 20 years later to see it all come back around

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in the form of somebody else who had also

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been a messenger between trenches in Germany where

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the death rate for being a Messenger was like

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90% and somehow Hitler made it.

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And to see that that guy was the guy who made it and just kind

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of be like, and by the way, that’s why Churchill,

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a lot of people on the alt right now, this is one of their pin.

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I’m going to put my pin in, in this argument for next year, but

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right now are like yelling about Churchill basically being the worst person in World War

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II. Da, da da da. Right, Tucker Carlson

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at all. Y’ all need to shut up. I, I don’t I don’t. I don’t

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care. I do not care. I don’t care what conclusions you come to from Churchill’s

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decisions. Dave Rubin, Tucker Carlson, all you guys,

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all of you.

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Churchill was at

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a number of different battles, including Gallipoli.

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So was Hitler at a number of different battles on the Western Front.

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So were a lot of other guys that eventually became big boys

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later on during World War II, including Harry Truman,

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by the way. Charles de Gaulle was in World

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War I. All of these guys all saw

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the war up close and they knew exactly what it meant to have a war.

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So I don’t want to hear from Dave Rubin, who’s never shot anybody in his

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life or this entire generation. Now we’re into three or four

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generations, actually, of grown men that have never actually picked up a gun or stood

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a post about how horrible those guys were and the decisions that

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they made. So that’s my rant. Rant over rant. But.

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But it drives me crazy because you go back and read the actual history of

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World War I, and it is probably the most documented

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war other than World War II, that we know anything about. And the documentation

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is clear. I mean, people wrote stuff down. Like we could actually

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go back and read what they said, and

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it was amazingly traumatic. So, yes, to, to, to your point about CS Lewis.

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Yeah. When the BBC asked him to go on the radio to kind of calm

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folks down, he was more than willing to do that because he was too old

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to go march and stay at a post. But he knew what it. He knew

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what it actually meant to go to war. He was

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serving again, though. He was helping something with the Air Force. I remember reading.

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I think it was in my forward or something. Yep. He was doing what we

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call it Air patrol, Civil Air Patrol, because he was too old to go. He’s

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too old to go to the front. Right. But, yeah, 60,000 guys,

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the Somme, in one battle. Just insane

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things. We would just, we would never tolerate now. Never.

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By the way, just as an, as a, as a comparison,

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over the course of 20 years between Afghanistan and Iraq, I

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think we lost 8,000 soldiers total in 20 years.

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And I’m not saying those values weren’t valuable. I am merely saying

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that in comparison

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to what we lost in the past, we got away with. We got. We

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got away with quite a bit. And partially that’s due

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to technology, better tactics, better learning, better training.

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One of the books we covered was Sebastian Younger’s book that he wrote

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called War about the guys in the Korengal Valley in 2000. 7

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and 2000. Between 2007 and 2009 in Afghanistan, we lost

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50 guys in the Korengal Valley. And we killed

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countless numbers of Taliban fighters who they were shoveling into the

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Korengal Valley, a valley that the British

401
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never went into when they were trying to take over Afghanistan. They didn’t go in

402
00:25:32,370 –> 00:25:36,090
there. The Russians lost two helicopters in

403
00:25:36,090 –> 00:25:39,700
there and they just, they were like, nope, we’re not going in there. Back in

404
00:25:39,700 –> 00:25:43,460
the early 80s and the Americans looked at the Coral Valley, went,

405
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oh yeah, we’ll go in there, it’s fine. And we lost 50 guys in

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two years. That’s the American mindset. That’s. That’s the

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00:25:51,020 –> 00:25:54,500
American military mindset. That’s what it is. That’s where we’re at. Our military is

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insane. Well, well, well, just.

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00:25:58,900 –> 00:26:02,580
I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Funding and, and effort and energy

410
00:26:02,740 –> 00:26:06,020
and. You still, you still have an 18 year old guy on a 50 cal

411
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that can disassemble and reassemble a 50 cal.

412
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50 cal machine gun. Yeah. In the

413
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middle of a firefight, which is again,

414
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training material, equipment are just better

415
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than they were. Yeah. And so we kind of. Yes. I mean you can kind

416
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of whatever. Apples to apples. But in an apple apples comparison of death to death.

417
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Yeah. Like, I mean C.S. lewis would have, would have loved

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to have had those numbers even like what, what do we. Okay.

419
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8,000 people. That’s a cakewalk.

420
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Not supposed to find a point on and every. Right. And everybody hates that

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term. You know, I don’t want to talk too much about war because that’s not

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00:26:48,070 –> 00:26:51,470
where we’re going here today. But like everybody hates that term. George Bush probably shouldn’t

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have used it in talking about Iraq. I don’t think our political

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leaders should use those terms in referring to war. I think we should always make

425
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it as serious as, as possible. Yeah. And we

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should also understand that

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just like everything else in the world, warfare has advanced.

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What’s interesting to me is you get somebody like C.S. lewis, who

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was an atheist, who saw the horrors of World

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War I up close, lived them, came out,

431
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saw another war that was shaping up to be about

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as horrific, if not more. Like when you

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think about the consequences of the. Yeah. Because the entire

434
00:27:31,770 –> 00:27:35,050
civilian like front opened up. Yeah. Yeah.

435
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And you see him driven deeper and deeper into faith

436
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instead of away from faith. Because I feel like a lot of people, a lot

437
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of secular stories are like, if you experience

438
00:27:47,770 –> 00:27:51,450
what C.S. lewis experienced, that’s when people lose faith.

439
00:27:51,690 –> 00:27:55,450
Right. They’re driven the other way. And CS Lewis

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is this Great, logical thinker. And admittedly, when I was reading this book, I

441
00:27:59,210 –> 00:28:02,830
was like, man, I do not feel smart. I

442
00:28:02,830 –> 00:28:06,270
feel like he’s just going, there are so many if

443
00:28:06,270 –> 00:28:09,910
thens, if thens, if thens, then this follows, and this follows, and this

444
00:28:09,910 –> 00:28:13,630
follows. And after about the second this follows, I

445
00:28:13,630 –> 00:28:17,430
was like, I think I’m

446
00:28:17,430 –> 00:28:21,110
still following. I’m fairly intelligent.

447
00:28:23,110 –> 00:28:26,630
I think maybe I’m starting to question that.

448
00:28:27,450 –> 00:28:30,690
I think it all makes sense, but it is. It is very clear and logical.

449
00:28:30,690 –> 00:28:34,370
But, man, it’s just he. He discusses this at. At

450
00:28:34,370 –> 00:28:38,170
such a higher level than so much of the masses

451
00:28:38,810 –> 00:28:42,530
today that are like, our current modern

452
00:28:42,530 –> 00:28:46,330
level. It feels like it has fallen so much. Granted, again,

453
00:28:46,570 –> 00:28:49,850
he was a professor at Oxford. That’s always been, like, kind of the.

454
00:28:50,810 –> 00:28:54,320
The top of the top even of English at his

455
00:28:54,320 –> 00:28:57,480
time, English culture at his time. But. Right.

456
00:28:57,800 –> 00:29:01,560
Yeah. Anyway, so that was. That was. That was. That’s an interesting.

457
00:29:02,200 –> 00:29:05,480
Well. And you talk. You talked about how you got to him from Protestantism.

458
00:29:06,280 –> 00:29:09,720
So I was born and raised

459
00:29:09,720 –> 00:29:12,920
Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Western Catholic.

460
00:29:14,760 –> 00:29:17,560
I won’t say the Catholics have no truck with CS Lewis,

461
00:29:18,520 –> 00:29:22,110
but I will say that the Catholics will claim Reinhold

462
00:29:22,110 –> 00:29:24,750
Niebuhr and G.K. chesterton

463
00:29:25,950 –> 00:29:29,710
as the two sort of really mountainous,

464
00:29:30,110 –> 00:29:33,630
you know, apologetic theologians of the 20th

465
00:29:33,630 –> 00:29:36,990
century. Right. Now, Chesterton,

466
00:29:36,990 –> 00:29:40,350
interestingly enough, who also did know H.G. wells, by the way,

467
00:29:40,910 –> 00:29:43,150
and used to argue with him all the time. Right.

468
00:29:44,670 –> 00:29:48,360
Chesterton writes from much more

469
00:29:48,360 –> 00:29:51,840
of a sort of rumpled, acerbic

470
00:29:51,840 –> 00:29:55,200
wit kind of perspective, which,

471
00:29:57,760 –> 00:30:01,080
to your point, about. About Lewis being an Oxford

472
00:30:01,080 –> 00:30:04,800
educated, you know, not Oxford educated, but an Oxford

473
00:30:04,800 –> 00:30:08,480
professor. And coming up in the English class system,

474
00:30:08,800 –> 00:30:12,090
Chesterton was so, like, totally, like, over here

475
00:30:12,570 –> 00:30:15,530
with all of that. And

476
00:30:16,250 –> 00:30:20,050
so the ways in which. And I think this is something

477
00:30:20,050 –> 00:30:22,650
that you see, by the way, in Tolkien in Lord of the Rings. Interesting enough

478
00:30:22,650 –> 00:30:26,490
for Tolkien. So Tolkien has the Catholicism, but he also has the class system,

479
00:30:26,490 –> 00:30:30,130
the English class system embedded on top of all of that. And

480
00:30:30,130 –> 00:30:33,370
that makes for an interesting mix, like, with the Hobbits

481
00:30:34,010 –> 00:30:37,370
and with, you know, Aragorn and how he talks about, like, His

482
00:30:37,370 –> 00:30:40,030
Majesty or how he addresses,

483
00:30:40,990 –> 00:30:44,790
you know, the evil in. In Mordor and all these other sort of

484
00:30:44,790 –> 00:30:47,190
the sort of elements. By the way, we’re also reading Lord of the Rings, almost

485
00:30:47,190 –> 00:30:50,750
reading Lord of the Rings with my boy. So, like, we just read like.

486
00:30:51,470 –> 00:30:54,950
So Sam just found

487
00:30:54,950 –> 00:30:58,670
Frodo at the top of the tower of Cirith Ungol. We’re going to Mount Doom.

488
00:31:01,230 –> 00:31:04,830
We’re headed around the corner now. So, and we just came off a bad

489
00:31:04,830 –> 00:31:08,280
negotiation with, with the

490
00:31:08,280 –> 00:31:12,000
assembly from Sauron. He kind of, as I told, as I told my

491
00:31:12,000 –> 00:31:15,200
8 year old, I said, well, that was significantly less of a

492
00:31:15,600 –> 00:31:18,640
positive interaction than he thought he was going to have with Gandalf.

493
00:31:20,800 –> 00:31:23,920
Don’t worry, you’ll see the movie soon. Yeah, right, you’ll see it.

494
00:31:24,800 –> 00:31:27,360
I’m giving you the book first. Yeah, right.

495
00:31:29,200 –> 00:31:31,200
But you know, but again, you know, you sort of see it in the way

496
00:31:31,200 –> 00:31:34,790
that Tolkien describes the English countryside and those sort of elements. You see the, the,

497
00:31:34,790 –> 00:31:37,910
the battle happening between those two. Whereas

498
00:31:38,790 –> 00:31:42,550
Chesterton sort of goes away from that in the opposite direction is like, no, we’re

499
00:31:42,550 –> 00:31:45,910
just going to go fully into, into the, into the Catholicism.

500
00:31:46,310 –> 00:31:50,070
And then to a certain degree, Lewis. And this is why I think Catholics don’t

501
00:31:50,070 –> 00:31:53,110
really, at least not until the late 20th century, didn’t really get their arms around

502
00:31:53,110 –> 00:31:55,670
C.S. lewis. He seems to.

503
00:31:59,750 –> 00:32:01,990
Protestant for lack of a better term.

504
00:32:03,590 –> 00:32:07,070
But I really appreciated how he opened it up because I’m Catholic now. I was

505
00:32:07,070 –> 00:32:10,710
born and raised Protestant and I

506
00:32:10,710 –> 00:32:14,550
went to a Christian college, was Nazarene and I

507
00:32:14,550 –> 00:32:18,390
actually had a Bible professor who my dad was,

508
00:32:19,350 –> 00:32:22,670
was, I think now that I have converted, he

509
00:32:22,670 –> 00:32:26,470
softened a little bit on Catholics. But when I was growing up

510
00:32:26,470 –> 00:32:30,270
he was very anti Catholic and

511
00:32:30,270 –> 00:32:33,690
it was actually a Bible professor. Did he call you a pap? He didn’t say

512
00:32:33,690 –> 00:32:35,890
papist. No, he has never called me a name

513
00:32:37,410 –> 00:32:40,610
because I did. I did hear that. I did hear that. I have, I have

514
00:32:40,610 –> 00:32:44,450
actually heard that before. But anyway, go ahead. No, so, yeah, my, I had a

515
00:32:44,450 –> 00:32:48,130
Nazarene Bible professor who we were doing a Christian

516
00:32:48,130 –> 00:32:51,210
tradition class, so getting into the history of the early church and all that. And,

517
00:32:51,210 –> 00:32:54,850
and he was actually, actually, you know, the Catholics

518
00:32:56,050 –> 00:32:59,850
that there’s a lot more merit here than a lot

519
00:32:59,850 –> 00:33:03,440
of Protestants will give them credit for it. It’s like, oh, that’s interesting. Like, but

520
00:33:03,440 –> 00:33:07,200
anyway, so all that thousand. Years of Western history were held together by these people.

521
00:33:07,200 –> 00:33:10,760
Just something. And so

522
00:33:11,000 –> 00:33:14,600
my. Oh my gosh. I mean, this is getting really into like Christian

523
00:33:15,320 –> 00:33:18,600
culture, theology. Oh yeah. Personal friend who, who

524
00:33:19,160 –> 00:33:22,680
is, is still Protestant. I guess their church has like a missionary

525
00:33:22,680 –> 00:33:26,400
movement to convert Catholics. And I was

526
00:33:26,400 –> 00:33:29,820
like, we’re

527
00:33:29,820 –> 00:33:33,620
Christians too. No, no, it’s okay, it’s okay. And, and

528
00:33:33,620 –> 00:33:37,380
my friend was like, yeah, I know, it’s. I was telling them it’s

529
00:33:37,380 –> 00:33:40,060
like they still follow the Nicene Creed. And I was like,

530
00:33:40,860 –> 00:33:43,900
we wrote the Nicene Creed. What are you talking about?

531
00:33:45,580 –> 00:33:49,300
But anyway, all that to Say, I really appreciated when I was reading through

532
00:33:49,300 –> 00:33:52,220
the book, you know, C.S. lewis is Anglican. I knew that. I knew he was

533
00:33:52,220 –> 00:33:55,870
besties with, with the Tolkien who’s Catholic. I was

534
00:33:55,870 –> 00:33:59,430
like, I doubt he’s gonna start picking fights.

535
00:34:00,230 –> 00:34:03,030
No, no, no, no. I really appreciated how

536
00:34:05,510 –> 00:34:09,310
even handed he was. Even with all the disagreements and. Well,

537
00:34:09,310 –> 00:34:12,270
I. There’s a question, you know, if we get to it, there’s a question down

538
00:34:12,270 –> 00:34:15,750
below, you know, we’re talking about. But

539
00:34:16,310 –> 00:34:20,030
he like, what, what are the. What are the important things? Or

540
00:34:20,030 –> 00:34:23,270
something like that. Like, and I just, I just really appreciated how he was like,

541
00:34:23,270 –> 00:34:26,450
hey, don’t waste time arguing

542
00:34:27,170 –> 00:34:30,290
about all the little. There are. There are some

543
00:34:30,770 –> 00:34:33,890
little nitpicky differences here

544
00:34:34,450 –> 00:34:37,410
that don’t matter. And I remember like Protestant,

545
00:34:38,290 –> 00:34:42,090
they’ll say like, is this a salvation issue? Yeah, yeah, that’s. That’s like the big

546
00:34:42,090 –> 00:34:45,570
question. Yes, right. And so what I appreciated is that I feel like

547
00:34:45,570 –> 00:34:48,770
CS Lewis sticks to the

548
00:34:49,010 –> 00:34:52,859
absolute core of like, this is what

549
00:34:53,419 –> 00:34:56,379
every Christian believes. This is probably.

550
00:34:57,259 –> 00:35:00,299
I mean, actually I think there are some Protestants that would read this and be

551
00:35:00,299 –> 00:35:03,019
like, we don’t believe that anymore. Like,

552
00:35:04,299 –> 00:35:08,139
there’s certain, like little things in here. Not little things. Actually.

553
00:35:08,699 –> 00:35:12,419
They’re not little. But. But they’re not. But they’re. But, but they’re

554
00:35:12,419 –> 00:35:16,259
not salvation issues. Calm down. But they might be.

555
00:35:16,259 –> 00:35:17,730
I don’t know. Anyway, it is.

556
00:35:22,050 –> 00:35:25,770
Where you wind up. He’s not attacking. It’s so clear that he’s not attacking anybody.

557
00:35:25,770 –> 00:35:29,570
He’s like, here, this is, this is, this is, this

558
00:35:29,570 –> 00:35:32,850
is the, the thing as I see it, if you want to believe it, cool.

559
00:35:33,410 –> 00:35:36,530
There’s even a couple of things in there where he gets real deep into the,

560
00:35:36,610 –> 00:35:40,210
the theology. He’s like, if this isn’t useful for you. Right.

561
00:35:40,530 –> 00:35:44,330
Skip it. Just skip it. Exact. Exactly. Yes. Which, which I do,

562
00:35:44,330 –> 00:35:47,660
I do admire. That good down to earth

563
00:35:47,660 –> 00:35:50,980
Christian. Without knowing this,

564
00:35:51,460 –> 00:35:55,100
you don’t need to know that God, like the particulars

565
00:35:55,100 –> 00:35:58,780
of God being outside of time. Right. And if that hurts

566
00:35:58,780 –> 00:36:02,499
your brain, which I used to watch Doctor who, so

567
00:36:02,499 –> 00:36:06,180
that’s kind of thinking like, I’m like, oh, fun. But. But

568
00:36:06,180 –> 00:36:09,420
you know, for some people there’s like, that hurts. I’m not gonna think about that.

569
00:36:09,420 –> 00:36:12,460
It’s like, okay, fine, no, you don’t have to. So let me, let me pick

570
00:36:12,460 –> 00:36:14,940
up from laws of nature. Hit the law of human nature. So because this is,

571
00:36:14,940 –> 00:36:18,440
this goes directly to what you’re talking about here. And then I want to jump

572
00:36:18,440 –> 00:36:21,640
into like Christians in America because we,

573
00:36:22,120 –> 00:36:25,560
we’re gonna talk. We’re gonna talk about some intramural fights here. We’re gonna get signature

574
00:36:25,560 –> 00:36:27,240
mural fights. Here we go.

575
00:36:29,400 –> 00:36:32,520
Now, this law, by the way, this is from your Christianity. The law of human

576
00:36:32,520 –> 00:36:36,280
nature, by the way. You can get this. There’s publicly available copies floating around

577
00:36:36,280 –> 00:36:39,480
throughout the entire Internet. You can go, go grab your. Go grab a copy if

578
00:36:39,480 –> 00:36:42,520
you want to read this. All right, And a quote from Lewis.

579
00:36:43,470 –> 00:36:46,550
Now, this law or rule about right and wrong used to be called the law

580
00:36:46,550 –> 00:36:50,350
of nature. Pause. Yes. Throughout the entire

581
00:36:50,350 –> 00:36:54,150
Enlightenment, from Thomas Jefferson all the

582
00:36:54,150 –> 00:36:57,990
way to freaking David Hume, they all knew about the law of nature. The

583
00:36:57,990 –> 00:37:01,310
agnostics, the skeptics, the believers, they all knew about law of nature.

584
00:37:01,710 –> 00:37:04,510
Lewis is pulling on something that’s a deeply European,

585
00:37:06,110 –> 00:37:09,920
enlightened, pre Enlightenment idea. Okay, back to

586
00:37:09,920 –> 00:37:13,560
the book. Nowadays, when we talk of the laws of nature, we usually

587
00:37:13,560 –> 00:37:17,120
mean things like gravitation or heredity or the laws of chemistry. But when the

588
00:37:17,120 –> 00:37:20,920
older thinkers called the law of right and wrong the law of nature, they really

589
00:37:20,920 –> 00:37:24,600
meant the law of human nature. The idea was that just as bodies are governed

590
00:37:24,600 –> 00:37:28,400
by the law of gravitation and organisms by biological laws, so the

591
00:37:28,400 –> 00:37:32,040
creature called man also had his law, with this great difference that a body

592
00:37:32,040 –> 00:37:35,540
could not choose whether it obeyed the law of gravitation or not. But a man

593
00:37:35,540 –> 00:37:39,180
could choose either to obey the law of human nature or to disobey

594
00:37:39,180 –> 00:37:42,860
it. We may put this in another way. Each man is at

595
00:37:42,860 –> 00:37:46,540
every moment subjected to several different sets of law. But there is only one of

596
00:37:46,540 –> 00:37:50,060
these which he is free to disobey. As a body, he is

597
00:37:50,060 –> 00:37:53,660
subjected to gravitation and cannot disobey it. If you leave him unsupported in

598
00:37:53,660 –> 00:37:56,820
midair, he has no more choice about falling than a stone has.

599
00:37:57,940 –> 00:38:01,540
As an organism, he is subjected to various biological laws which he cannot disobey

600
00:38:01,700 –> 00:38:05,290
any more than an animal can. That is, he cannot disobey those laws which he

601
00:38:05,290 –> 00:38:09,090
shares with other things. But the law which is peculiar to his human nature,

602
00:38:09,090 –> 00:38:12,850
the law he does not share with animals or vegetables or inorganic things,

603
00:38:13,090 –> 00:38:16,530
is the one he can disobey if he chooses.

604
00:38:17,810 –> 00:38:20,970
This law was called the law of nature because people thought that everyone knew it

605
00:38:20,970 –> 00:38:23,490
by nature and did not need to be taught it.

606
00:38:24,770 –> 00:38:27,490
They did not mean, of course, that you might not find an odd individual here

607
00:38:27,490 –> 00:38:30,250
or there who did not know it, just as you find a few people who

608
00:38:30,250 –> 00:38:33,890
are colorblind or have no ear for tune. But taking the race as a

609
00:38:33,890 –> 00:38:37,290
whole, they thought that the human idea of decent behavior was

610
00:38:37,290 –> 00:38:40,930
Obvious to everyone. And I believe they were right.

611
00:38:41,730 –> 00:38:45,570
If they were not, then all the things we said about the war, meaning World

612
00:38:45,570 –> 00:38:49,250
War I, were nonsense. What was the sense

613
00:38:49,250 –> 00:38:53,090
in saying the enemy were in the wrong unless right is a real

614
00:38:53,090 –> 00:38:56,770
thing, which now he’s switching to World War II, which the Nazis at

615
00:38:56,770 –> 00:39:00,400
bottom knew as well as we did and ought to have practiced. If they had

616
00:39:00,400 –> 00:39:04,200
had no notion of what we meant by right, then though we might still have

617
00:39:04,200 –> 00:39:08,040
had to fight them. We could no more have blamed them for that than for

618
00:39:08,040 –> 00:39:11,880
the color of their hair. I know that some people say the idea of

619
00:39:11,880 –> 00:39:15,280
a law of nature or decent behavior known to all men is unsound because different

620
00:39:15,280 –> 00:39:18,160
civilizations at different ages have had quite different moralities.

621
00:39:18,960 –> 00:39:22,240
But this is not true. Oh, look at that.

622
00:39:22,640 –> 00:39:26,360
There have been differences between their moralities, but these have never amounted to

623
00:39:26,360 –> 00:39:29,810
anything like a total difference.

624
00:39:34,450 –> 00:39:37,730
That right there, that entire paragraph I read right there,

625
00:39:37,810 –> 00:39:41,610
paragraph and a half, two paragraphs, actually, that sums

626
00:39:41,610 –> 00:39:45,450
up. No, that presents a challenge to the

627
00:39:45,450 –> 00:39:49,250
secular worldview of relativism, which we are now

628
00:39:49,490 –> 00:39:53,290
wallowing in in the West. And

629
00:39:53,290 –> 00:39:56,690
I would even go far, far beyond wallowing. We have drowned in relative.

630
00:39:56,770 –> 00:40:00,430
Drowned in relat. And it also puts

631
00:40:00,430 –> 00:40:04,190
paid the idea of individuality, which Americans in

632
00:40:04,190 –> 00:40:07,870
particular is. If. If countries are to have sins, America’s

633
00:40:07,870 –> 00:40:11,510
particular sin is not pride of nation. That ain’t that. Every country’s got

634
00:40:11,510 –> 00:40:14,590
that. America’s particular sin is individuality,

635
00:40:15,870 –> 00:40:19,550
the idea that we can decide which laws of nature we are going to follow

636
00:40:20,030 –> 00:40:22,270
and no one can tell us what to do.

637
00:40:24,590 –> 00:40:28,390
Right. Lewis would object to all of

638
00:40:28,390 –> 00:40:32,190
that, and he would say that that is

639
00:40:32,190 –> 00:40:35,910
foolish and would lead to the death of a civilization. And he might

640
00:40:36,070 –> 00:40:38,550
be correct about that.

641
00:40:41,350 –> 00:40:44,710
Where this is important, I think, for Christians.

642
00:40:45,110 –> 00:40:48,910
Now let’s get to intramural fights, because we have a lot of intramural

643
00:40:48,910 –> 00:40:52,610
fights. At least I see intramural fights so on on the Internet

644
00:40:53,010 –> 00:40:56,650
between Christians. So the various Christian accounts I follow, the various intramural fights I

645
00:40:56,650 –> 00:41:00,370
see that secular people never see. It’s

646
00:41:00,370 –> 00:41:03,010
very interesting to me because I interview a lot of different people on this show.

647
00:41:03,010 –> 00:41:05,170
I have a lot of different conversations with a lot of people with a lot

648
00:41:05,170 –> 00:41:08,970
of different backgrounds on this show, some of whom are more

649
00:41:08,970 –> 00:41:12,810
agnostic or atheistic in their worldview, some of whom may be more

650
00:41:12,810 –> 00:41:15,810
Christian, but we’ve never actually had the opportunity to talk about that. And then others

651
00:41:15,810 –> 00:41:18,970
of whom are just like, I don’t know, I’m floating through the world, okay.

652
00:41:19,770 –> 00:41:23,530
And it’s interesting when I talk to the people who are in those last few

653
00:41:23,530 –> 00:41:26,730
categories, the agnostic, the skeptic, floating through the world.

654
00:41:27,850 –> 00:41:31,690
When we touch on, as we invariably do, either the Bible or

655
00:41:32,250 –> 00:41:35,970
theology, which invariably we will, because we are talking about human

656
00:41:35,970 –> 00:41:39,730
beings. And as I said in the opening, reality, how you

657
00:41:39,730 –> 00:41:43,130
think about reality really does matter. When I talk with those people.

658
00:41:43,690 –> 00:41:46,170
What is interesting and what pops up is

659
00:41:47,780 –> 00:41:50,780
when I talk about the intramural fights that Christians are having with each other in

660
00:41:50,780 –> 00:41:54,420
America right now, the people. As a matter of fact, I just had this

661
00:41:54,420 –> 00:41:56,900
conversation with John Hill, interestingly enough,

662
00:41:58,100 –> 00:42:01,740
another guest of ours on our episode

663
00:42:01,740 –> 00:42:05,460
about war, because you can’t talk about war without talking about religion. You just,

664
00:42:05,460 –> 00:42:09,300
you can’t. And I was talking a little bit about some of

665
00:42:09,300 –> 00:42:11,940
the intramural fights and he was like, I don’t, I didn’t know that any of

666
00:42:11,940 –> 00:42:15,610
that was going on in the world of Christianity. It’s like, well,

667
00:42:15,610 –> 00:42:19,050
no, because you’re not in the thing.

668
00:42:19,850 –> 00:42:23,650
It’s also not spread out throughout our culture in the way that

669
00:42:23,650 –> 00:42:27,450
it was even like 30 years ago,

670
00:42:28,730 –> 00:42:32,490
even before that, 50 years ago. So, like, you went to Nazarene

671
00:42:32,490 –> 00:42:35,690
College, right? That entire system

672
00:42:36,250 –> 00:42:38,330
of Christian

673
00:42:39,890 –> 00:42:43,490
based learning and Christian colleges and universities

674
00:42:44,130 –> 00:42:47,330
has been totally and completely, from a Christian’s perspective,

675
00:42:47,570 –> 00:42:51,170
infiltrated by secular people at all levels.

676
00:42:52,610 –> 00:42:55,570
I read a book, I have a book actually, that my wife got me

677
00:42:56,450 –> 00:42:59,810
where a person, whoever the author was, researched

678
00:43:00,850 –> 00:43:04,570
what the actual beliefs are of folks who are teaching and who

679
00:43:04,570 –> 00:43:08,420
are deans and who are administrators at Christian colleges and then the

680
00:43:08,420 –> 00:43:12,140
kinds of people that they are graduating from, not just Christian colleges

681
00:43:12,140 –> 00:43:15,740
but also seminaries who are then going to serve in churches. And the number of

682
00:43:15,740 –> 00:43:19,380
those people who hold beliefs that are closer to those of the secular

683
00:43:19,380 –> 00:43:22,380
world than are those that are closer to a religious worldview

684
00:43:22,940 –> 00:43:26,780
is well over 50%. It’s overwhelming. And so they

685
00:43:26,780 –> 00:43:30,620
are going to these congregations where the vast majority

686
00:43:30,620 –> 00:43:34,300
of people in the congregations still hold worldviews that are more biblically based

687
00:43:34,390 –> 00:43:37,660
on. And this is part of the collapse,

688
00:43:37,900 –> 00:43:41,500
internal collapse of the American Christian church

689
00:43:41,820 –> 00:43:45,500
that has been going on in a slow motion collapse ever

690
00:43:45,500 –> 00:43:49,180
since. Well, ever since Rick Warren

691
00:43:49,180 –> 00:43:51,100
stopped being relevant at the end of the 90s.

692
00:43:54,860 –> 00:43:57,660
And I say that. And did you smile because you know exactly what I’m talking

693
00:43:57,660 –> 00:44:01,340
about. Oh, my dad, left, led the, the purpose driven

694
00:44:02,420 –> 00:44:06,180
movement at our, at our, at our. All those secret sensitive

695
00:44:06,180 –> 00:44:09,660
people. Oh, yeah, yeah. Don’t get me started on the secret

696
00:44:09,660 –> 00:44:13,380
sensitive movement. And please don’t ask me anything

697
00:44:13,380 –> 00:44:17,060
about Billy Graham or about any of the Jesus revolution. Don’t ask me about

698
00:44:17,060 –> 00:44:20,460
anything about any of that because again, it’s intramural fights. It’s

699
00:44:20,460 –> 00:44:24,300
intramural fights. And the reason why there’s

700
00:44:24,300 –> 00:44:27,380
intramural fights, it took me a while to sort of understand this is because Christians

701
00:44:27,380 –> 00:44:29,940
in America, for those of you who are not Christian and who are listening to

702
00:44:29,940 –> 00:44:33,790
this or maybe listening internationally and have no idea about any of this,

703
00:44:34,670 –> 00:44:37,790
there’s just a little education. And then I’m going to ask Kristen a core question

704
00:44:37,790 –> 00:44:41,390
here. We can sort of get going. So there’s five groups

705
00:44:41,390 –> 00:44:44,910
of people, five divisions, I would say, of not only

706
00:44:44,910 –> 00:44:47,710
Christians in America, but I think this applies to other religions as well.

707
00:44:49,310 –> 00:44:52,990
And I got this, interestingly enough, credit where credit is due.

708
00:44:53,230 –> 00:44:56,900
I got this from the guys who host the Bema podcast, which was on from

709
00:44:56,900 –> 00:45:00,220
like 2017 to like probably

710
00:45:00,220 –> 00:45:03,100
2022 and was part of the

711
00:45:03,500 –> 00:45:07,260
Hebrew Roots movement that is occurring in, or

712
00:45:07,260 –> 00:45:10,540
was occurring at the time in the, in the American

713
00:45:10,700 –> 00:45:14,380
Christian church. And basically the Hebrew Roots movement, it was an attempt by

714
00:45:14,860 –> 00:45:18,140
certain Christians in the American church

715
00:45:18,460 –> 00:45:21,420
to return or take the church back to

716
00:45:23,660 –> 00:45:26,780
the Old Testament understanding of

717
00:45:27,580 –> 00:45:30,740
who Jesus was and to acknowledge

718
00:45:30,740 –> 00:45:34,300
Jesus’s Judaism and to try to understand

719
00:45:34,380 –> 00:45:38,019
Jesus through a Judaic lens and also to try to

720
00:45:38,019 –> 00:45:41,580
understand Paul and the other apostles through a Judaic

721
00:45:41,580 –> 00:45:45,300
lens, which is closer to what the kind of, I

722
00:45:45,300 –> 00:45:48,620
think the kind of Christianity that Peter would have advocated for in Jerusalem

723
00:45:49,040 –> 00:45:52,120
versus what Paul was advocating when he went to Corinth and the rest of the

724
00:45:52,120 –> 00:45:55,800
Gentiles. Okay. And again, that’s another intramural

725
00:45:55,800 –> 00:45:58,960
fight. I’m not going to get deep into that. But the podcast that I

726
00:45:59,520 –> 00:46:03,360
got this idea from is the Biba podcast. If you’re interested in the Hebrew Roots

727
00:46:03,360 –> 00:46:07,040
movement, go listen to Will frustrate you. By the way, if you are Christian,

728
00:46:07,040 –> 00:46:10,840
just fair warning, depending upon how deep you are into your own theology and your

729
00:46:10,840 –> 00:46:14,520
own understanding of the text, it will kind of drive you

730
00:46:14,520 –> 00:46:17,730
crazy, both in a good way and a bad way. Anyway,

731
00:46:18,850 –> 00:46:22,650
so what are these divisions? So the divisions

732
00:46:22,650 –> 00:46:26,330
include. There’s five divisions. So you have the Herodians, right? And these are

733
00:46:26,330 –> 00:46:30,130
people who, in the American Christian church, in the context of the American Christian

734
00:46:30,130 –> 00:46:33,370
church, they really like the things of this world and they’re looking to

735
00:46:33,370 –> 00:46:36,610
syncretize. That means join the world in Christ.

736
00:46:37,650 –> 00:46:41,220
They’re the people who go to the non denominational churches and sing the

737
00:46:41,220 –> 00:46:44,700
Bethel songs and have the iPhones and the devotionals

738
00:46:44,940 –> 00:46:48,300
and they think they’re doing fine. Those, those would be the Herodians

739
00:46:48,860 –> 00:46:52,460
or the Herodian types. Then you have the Sadducees.

740
00:46:52,460 –> 00:46:56,300
Sadducees are folks who really like worldly power and influence. And they

741
00:46:56,300 –> 00:46:59,420
like the way the Christianity sort of affords them that

742
00:47:01,420 –> 00:47:04,860
in the American Christian church, the Sadducees will show up as

743
00:47:05,500 –> 00:47:09,250
Joel Osteen. That’s who I think of. Or

744
00:47:09,250 –> 00:47:12,890
Kenneth Copeland. And you can come for me about

745
00:47:12,890 –> 00:47:16,290
all of that if you would like. Then you have the

746
00:47:16,290 –> 00:47:19,770
Pharisees in the American Christian church, by the way, this is the one that

747
00:47:19,770 –> 00:47:23,490
everybody, believer, non believer alike, hates. But there’s something important

748
00:47:23,490 –> 00:47:27,330
to value in the Pharisee worldview. Pharisees really like

749
00:47:27,330 –> 00:47:31,010
the New Testament and they really like arguing over what it means. They really like

750
00:47:31,010 –> 00:47:34,280
arguing over who’s in and who’s out of the church

751
00:47:34,520 –> 00:47:37,640
in capital letters and in air quotes.

752
00:47:38,200 –> 00:47:41,720
And they will use the other types and they will unite with the Herodians and

753
00:47:41,720 –> 00:47:44,920
the Sadducees and the Essenes and the Zealots. They’ll unite with all those other types

754
00:47:44,920 –> 00:47:48,200
to pursue their goals. So when you think about Pharisitical folks,

755
00:47:48,760 –> 00:47:52,440
think about every big Eva church you’ve ever seen, every big Eva megachurch

756
00:47:52,440 –> 00:47:56,200
you’ve ever seen. Those churches are filled with folks that

757
00:47:56,200 –> 00:47:59,880
would be defined as Pharasitical, by the way. Not only

758
00:47:59,880 –> 00:48:03,440
by people outside the church, but as I said before, people also inside the

759
00:48:03,440 –> 00:48:07,120
church. These would traditionally be like your

760
00:48:07,120 –> 00:48:10,920
church lady types. You’re going to follow the rules.

761
00:48:11,160 –> 00:48:15,000
Because I know the rules. Now. The thing is, and this is

762
00:48:15,000 –> 00:48:17,720
a point that I want to make that was also made on the BIBA podcast.

763
00:48:17,720 –> 00:48:21,480
I think it’s relevant to this. Pharisitical

764
00:48:21,480 –> 00:48:25,260
types. No, Pharisees. Jesus hung out

765
00:48:25,260 –> 00:48:28,540
with the Pharisees and he argued with the Pharisees

766
00:48:29,020 –> 00:48:31,660
and they didn’t touch him, not one bit.

767
00:48:32,620 –> 00:48:35,340
He hung out for a week with the Sadducees and he was dead.

768
00:48:39,500 –> 00:48:43,340
Important thing to understand. And the reason Jesus hung out

769
00:48:43,340 –> 00:48:46,700
with the Pharisees. And by the way, he said this in the red letter parts

770
00:48:46,700 –> 00:48:50,380
of the Bible of your New Testament. You have everything but

771
00:48:50,380 –> 00:48:53,730
mercy. The church ladies have everything.

772
00:48:54,210 –> 00:48:57,730
They have the law, they have the Word. Some of them know the Word better

773
00:48:57,730 –> 00:49:01,450
even than I do. They know the hermeneutics and they know how to argue the

774
00:49:01,450 –> 00:49:03,890
apologetics, but they don’t have the mercy.

775
00:49:05,170 –> 00:49:08,890
That’s the thing that Jesus wanted to get to the Pharisees, the Pharisee

776
00:49:08,890 –> 00:49:12,050
mindset that the Pharisee mindset tends to miss. Okay,

777
00:49:12,770 –> 00:49:16,530
then your last two types are sort of minority types in the American church.

778
00:49:16,530 –> 00:49:20,290
But they are still here. You got the Essenes, and those

779
00:49:20,290 –> 00:49:23,850
are the folks that really like being away from all this worldly crap. And

780
00:49:23,930 –> 00:49:27,050
they look anxiously to the end of the material world.

781
00:49:27,770 –> 00:49:31,490
Think of like Tim LaHaye and the left behind people. It’s

782
00:49:31,490 –> 00:49:34,730
those kind of people, the people who are consumed with whether or not they’re post

783
00:49:34,730 –> 00:49:37,970
millennial, amillennial, a millennial

784
00:49:37,970 –> 00:49:41,770
dispensationalist, preterist. They’re very consumed with what is happening in the Book of

785
00:49:41,770 –> 00:49:45,410
Revelations. They’re always trying to tie the Book of Revelations to things that are happening

786
00:49:45,410 –> 00:49:49,000
in current headlines because the reason why

787
00:49:49,240 –> 00:49:52,520
is because they want Elon Musk and his humanoid robots

788
00:49:53,080 –> 00:49:56,880
and all the secular atheist people to get in their ships, to rock their SpaceX

789
00:49:56,880 –> 00:50:00,720
rocket ships and fly away. That way they can inherit the Earth. That’s,

790
00:50:00,720 –> 00:50:03,640
that’s what they want. They just desperately want them to all leave

791
00:50:04,840 –> 00:50:08,560
because they can’t make a person who is in the mindset of

792
00:50:08,560 –> 00:50:11,240
a scene can’t make,

793
00:50:12,280 –> 00:50:16,010
can’t make, can’t shake hands with a secular person.

794
00:50:16,010 –> 00:50:19,170
They just, they, they can’t. They don’t know how to do it. Think about a

795
00:50:19,170 –> 00:50:22,850
survival, Think about every survivalist type you’ve ever had who’s like storing gold

796
00:50:22,850 –> 00:50:26,650
or guns or gasoline. There’s those kind of people. And by the way, how do

797
00:50:26,650 –> 00:50:30,490
I know? I grew up with those kinds of people. I know exactly who

798
00:50:30,490 –> 00:50:33,970
those people are. I understand exactly their mindset. And I have a lot of empathy,

799
00:50:33,970 –> 00:50:37,610
by the way, for those people because they are the ones actually that write down

800
00:50:39,530 –> 00:50:42,330
all of the things that happened. And they’re the ones that document the history.

801
00:50:44,350 –> 00:50:47,270
So when the world blows up, they’re the ones that get the last word because

802
00:50:47,270 –> 00:50:50,390
they’re the ones who wrote it down. The final group of folks you have in

803
00:50:50,390 –> 00:50:54,190
the American church is the zealots and the

804
00:50:54,190 –> 00:50:57,910
zealots. By the way, Jesus had a few

805
00:50:57,910 –> 00:51:00,270
zealots around him. Simon the Zealot and some others.

806
00:51:02,110 –> 00:51:05,950
Zealots really like pushing Christianity onto others. They really like pushing

807
00:51:05,950 –> 00:51:09,630
Christianity onto fellow believers and unbelievers alike. Zealots

808
00:51:09,710 –> 00:51:13,480
can be, and they will make, what do

809
00:51:13,480 –> 00:51:16,840
you call it, allies with all of the other types as well.

810
00:51:17,240 –> 00:51:20,240
They’re not like the Essenes. They don’t want to go off in the mountains. They

811
00:51:20,240 –> 00:51:23,800
just really have a lot of passion, a lot of zeal for the Word.

812
00:51:24,360 –> 00:51:28,000
And they are the people who will sit in the coffee shop.

813
00:51:28,000 –> 00:51:31,400
They’re the guy that will sit in the coffee shop nursing a cup of coffee

814
00:51:31,640 –> 00:51:34,480
and he just. He would have a sign that would say, come and talk to

815
00:51:34,480 –> 00:51:37,980
me about Jesus. And he’ll talk to you about Jesus all day. Matter of fact,

816
00:51:37,980 –> 00:51:40,220
he’ll walk down the street, talk to you about Jesus. Matter of fact, when you

817
00:51:40,220 –> 00:51:43,340
tell him to go away, he’ll still talk to you about Jesus. That’s

818
00:51:43,900 –> 00:51:46,860
the zealot type. So these are the five types you have in the American

819
00:51:47,180 –> 00:51:50,460
Christian church, updated for modern

820
00:51:50,460 –> 00:51:54,260
sensibilities. And Lewis’s writing appeals to all these groups and really

821
00:51:54,260 –> 00:51:57,900
has something for all of them. I think the way in which

822
00:51:57,900 –> 00:52:01,660
he writes secures the power of belief in Christ within a framework that each

823
00:52:01,660 –> 00:52:05,470
type will accept. There’s something here for people who are more of the

824
00:52:05,470 –> 00:52:08,750
Herodian, you know, iPhone types and the

825
00:52:08,750 –> 00:52:12,110
Sadducees types and the Pharaoh cytical types and the

826
00:52:12,110 –> 00:52:15,590
Essene types and even the zealot types. And Lewis also

827
00:52:15,590 –> 00:52:19,110
understands something fundamental. And I think this is at the core of Mere Christianity, and

828
00:52:19,110 –> 00:52:22,790
this is probably our whole conversation right here. But he understands that

829
00:52:23,190 –> 00:52:26,790
these folks are the material that God has to work with in building the

830
00:52:26,790 –> 00:52:30,480
kingdom of heaven. Yes. Here on Earth.

831
00:52:31,040 –> 00:52:34,880
And by the way, in Genesis, God

832
00:52:34,880 –> 00:52:38,440
said it was good. And I know that’s tough for us as

833
00:52:38,440 –> 00:52:41,360
humans because we put all of our stuff and project all of our stuff onto

834
00:52:41,360 –> 00:52:45,160
all these types, and God created

835
00:52:45,160 –> 00:52:48,960
them all. God allowed space for all of them, and God said that it

836
00:52:48,960 –> 00:52:51,360
was, what? Good.

837
00:52:56,410 –> 00:53:00,170
So this frames some of the ways I see the themes in Mere Christianity, this

838
00:53:00,170 –> 00:53:03,850
thinking. Kristen, this is the first time I’m laying this framing

839
00:53:03,850 –> 00:53:07,690
on other people. So congratulations, you’re getting the brunt of all of this.

840
00:53:07,690 –> 00:53:10,530
Yeah. What do you. What do you think of this framing? I was watching your

841
00:53:10,530 –> 00:53:13,650
face as I was going through this, and it’s okay to disagree. That’s fine. I

842
00:53:13,650 –> 00:53:16,810
mean, please disagree. Please tell me I’m off my rocker completely. Well,

843
00:53:17,530 –> 00:53:20,290
I don’t know if this is a millennial thing, but I’m definitely one of those

844
00:53:20,290 –> 00:53:23,770
people that is like, oh, it’s like a personality test. Which one am I?

845
00:53:24,130 –> 00:53:27,970
And I’m reading these. I’m like, I have no idea.

846
00:53:28,210 –> 00:53:31,890
I don’t know. Maybe my. Maybe. Maybe my husband could tell me.

847
00:53:31,890 –> 00:53:35,490
I don’t know. Like, I. This is. This is your.

848
00:53:35,490 –> 00:53:39,090
What’s your. What’s your. What’s your American. American church

849
00:53:39,090 –> 00:53:42,530
type? I. But what. I’m buzzfeed.

850
00:53:42,530 –> 00:53:46,090
Buzzfeed. That I actually followed into the Catholic

851
00:53:46,090 –> 00:53:49,570
Church. I just. Every time you said the American

852
00:53:49,650 –> 00:53:53,450
Church, I kept hearing him because he actually does

853
00:53:53,450 –> 00:53:57,210
a lot of apologetics. And I will say, you know, your intro was talking

854
00:53:57,210 –> 00:54:01,010
about how a lot of modern Christians can’t really handle apologetics.

855
00:54:01,010 –> 00:54:04,690
I’m one of those people. I’m working on it, you know, now

856
00:54:04,690 –> 00:54:08,410
in my 30s, after being born and raised a Christian. But

857
00:54:08,410 –> 00:54:12,090
unfortunately, I felt like my. My role model

858
00:54:12,090 –> 00:54:15,330
was not great. But

859
00:54:15,650 –> 00:54:19,030
so. So I’m working on it. But I’m one of those people that gets that,

860
00:54:19,030 –> 00:54:22,190
like, gets really defensive and emotional. Almost

861
00:54:22,190 –> 00:54:25,510
immediately, something is challenged. So I’m having to. To

862
00:54:25,510 –> 00:54:29,230
unlearn that. But my friend, back to my

863
00:54:29,230 –> 00:54:32,590
friend who, you know, does now apologetics, Catholic

864
00:54:32,590 –> 00:54:36,230
apologetics, as also someone who. Who converted from Protestantism,

865
00:54:36,230 –> 00:54:39,870
he’s like, there is no American church. We’re too

866
00:54:39,870 –> 00:54:42,470
busy fighting with each other. There’s.

867
00:54:44,370 –> 00:54:47,690
He might have a point there. There’s no unity. There’s no unity. Yeah. There’s no

868
00:54:47,690 –> 00:54:50,210
unity. There’s no unity in the American church. It’s just all,

869
00:54:51,490 –> 00:54:54,650
well, so. So give him. Give him these two ideas. There’s two ideas here. Because

870
00:54:54,650 –> 00:54:56,530
my wife and I have been talking a lot about this because we’re in the

871
00:54:56,530 –> 00:55:00,210
middle of a church search. A church search. Right. And

872
00:55:00,370 –> 00:55:04,130
that’s a whole kind of thing. It’s hard. It’s very difficult.

873
00:55:04,130 –> 00:55:07,730
My family is all but excommunicated from my home. But the

874
00:55:07,730 –> 00:55:11,160
church that I grew up in, and it was. Took a long time.

875
00:55:11,880 –> 00:55:15,640
Right. Especially because of all the. I hesitate to call

876
00:55:15,640 –> 00:55:18,360
it drama because. Very painful. It was a very painful break.

877
00:55:19,320 –> 00:55:22,440
And we, the family, definitely felt like we were wronged.

878
00:55:22,760 –> 00:55:26,520
Yeah. And pushed out of this place that was

879
00:55:26,520 –> 00:55:30,160
my home. Right. So many of my

880
00:55:30,160 –> 00:55:33,720
formative experiences, where I met my husband,

881
00:55:34,680 –> 00:55:37,700
where I got married. So it just. When we were

882
00:55:38,260 –> 00:55:41,780
forced out, and so it was very difficult to find,

883
00:55:42,980 –> 00:55:46,700
or when we were looking just even. Or even to want

884
00:55:46,700 –> 00:55:50,540
to find a new church, because then it was just an opportunity for someone

885
00:55:50,540 –> 00:55:54,260
to do that again. Well, and that’s. And that

886
00:55:54,260 –> 00:55:58,060
gets to sort of the three things that I would tell your. I would

887
00:55:58,060 –> 00:56:01,860
say to your friend, the reason we don’t have an American

888
00:56:01,860 –> 00:56:05,600
church, there’s really only three reasons. One,

889
00:56:07,440 –> 00:56:11,160
geography. Geography is the big thing. We’re just too

890
00:56:11,160 –> 00:56:14,800
damn big. Correct. And. And. And that ties into

891
00:56:14,800 –> 00:56:18,640
number two, which is individuality. Remember I said, you’re a youth. American

892
00:56:18,720 –> 00:56:22,320
sin is individuality. I don’t need this community. And this is where

893
00:56:22,320 –> 00:56:25,320
geography then kicks in. So I can pack up my wife and kids in my

894
00:56:25,320 –> 00:56:29,120
Conestoga wagon, say, I saw something in some plates

895
00:56:29,120 –> 00:56:31,670
in a mountain that no one else can see. And I’M just going to go

896
00:56:31,670 –> 00:56:35,310
right there. I’m going to, I’m going to screw off to Nebraska and you’re not

897
00:56:35,310 –> 00:56:38,510
going to find me. And I can get 12 other people around me and congratulations,

898
00:56:38,510 –> 00:56:41,750
now I have a community and I don’t need anybody. And by the way,

899
00:56:42,790 –> 00:56:46,630
not minimizing Mormonism and what’s almost the entire history of

900
00:56:46,630 –> 00:56:50,470
Mormonism. Well, think about it, think

901
00:56:50,470 –> 00:56:53,750
about it. The last truly revolutionary religious

902
00:56:54,230 –> 00:56:57,960
attempt with Scientology by L. Ron

903
00:56:57,960 –> 00:57:01,720
Hubbard. And, and the only reason

904
00:57:01,720 –> 00:57:04,480
that worked is because California was far enough away

905
00:57:07,120 –> 00:57:10,800
from people who would have check jacked L. Ron Hubbard. And even

906
00:57:10,800 –> 00:57:14,080
people did then, but would have stopped that thing

907
00:57:14,800 –> 00:57:18,480
and strangled it in its cradle. But because we’re

908
00:57:18,480 –> 00:57:22,330
so big. Yep. Geography sort

909
00:57:22,330 –> 00:57:26,010
of mucks us up. So it’s geography, individuality. And then the other thing is,

910
00:57:26,250 –> 00:57:29,730
this is, this is the third thing that everybody misses. Believer and

911
00:57:29,730 –> 00:57:33,050
unbeliever alike. When you have religious liberty

912
00:57:34,170 –> 00:57:37,050
and you actually take that seriously. Yeah. Right.

913
00:57:39,530 –> 00:57:43,250
There you go. Dot, dot, dot. There’s the ellipsis. I know

914
00:57:43,250 –> 00:57:45,930
millennials don’t like the ellipsis. I probably shouldn’t have left it that way. But like,

915
00:57:46,010 –> 00:57:49,850
but like that, that’s the thing. Like, anything will fill

916
00:57:49,850 –> 00:57:52,380
in those dot, dot dots every, from everything from

917
00:57:53,580 –> 00:57:57,380
the Nvidia cults to the Branch Davidians in the, in Waco

918
00:57:57,380 –> 00:58:01,100
in the 1990s. Like, that’ll. That’s going to get filled in, in there. Because

919
00:58:01,900 –> 00:58:05,700
who’s to say we’ve decided to take religious liberty to

920
00:58:05,700 –> 00:58:08,300
its radical end?

921
00:58:09,100 –> 00:58:12,700
Yeah. Now, I would push back on your friend and I would

922
00:58:12,700 –> 00:58:16,020
say as the big evangelical

923
00:58:16,020 –> 00:58:19,600
churches break up in America, and this is in a sec, that the part

924
00:58:19,600 –> 00:58:22,440
that the other part of here that we’re going to talk about as the big

925
00:58:22,440 –> 00:58:26,040
evangelical churches break up in America, I

926
00:58:26,040 –> 00:58:28,800
do think that we are at a point where

927
00:58:30,880 –> 00:58:34,440
we don’t need an American church, but I do

928
00:58:34,440 –> 00:58:38,000
think we will get in the next hundred years, and it might take 150

929
00:58:39,280 –> 00:58:41,680
if we’re around as a polity that long, but

930
00:58:43,610 –> 00:58:46,570
I think we’re going to get an America, a uniquely American theology

931
00:58:47,450 –> 00:58:51,130
that I think we will absolutely get. I think we will. We are

932
00:58:51,130 –> 00:58:54,570
groping our way towards that. For better or worse, I suppose.

933
00:58:55,210 –> 00:58:57,610
I mean, considering what the American culture

934
00:58:58,250 –> 00:59:02,010
idolizes. Correct. At American theology

935
00:59:02,650 –> 00:59:06,290
may or may not be a good thing. Well, so

936
00:59:06,290 –> 00:59:10,090
Jonathan Edwards, the great theologian, sermons in the hand of the

937
00:59:10,090 –> 00:59:13,530
angry God who died at like 49 of like a mysterious disease.

938
00:59:13,900 –> 00:59:17,660
He was groping towards that back in the seventh, back in the 18th century, because

939
00:59:17,660 –> 00:59:21,228
he was even seeing it then. And there were only like 100.

940
00:59:21,372 –> 00:59:25,140
100 and some odd years. Not even 100 and some odd years. 75 to

941
00:59:25,140 –> 00:59:28,980
80 years outside of the Puritans. Like, there were still people walking

942
00:59:28,980 –> 00:59:32,700
around who could remember when the Puritans first showed up. And by the time

943
00:59:33,180 –> 00:59:36,820
Jonathan Edwards came along and was born, the fracturing

944
00:59:36,820 –> 00:59:39,340
was already starting. And Jonathan Edwards was like,

945
00:59:41,540 –> 00:59:44,940
we gotta get a hold of this. Right. And we can’t do it from a

946
00:59:44,940 –> 00:59:48,620
European perspective, because the problems that are in

947
00:59:48,620 –> 00:59:51,860
Europe are not the problems here. Right.

948
00:59:52,260 –> 00:59:54,980
And so it’s interesting to your point, C. S. Lewis,

949
00:59:55,860 –> 00:59:59,300
Irish, came out of a long, long,

950
01:00:00,020 –> 01:00:03,300
long culture of

951
01:00:03,300 –> 01:00:07,110
European Christianity. But if you

952
01:00:07,110 –> 01:00:10,870
go out and Google the great American theologians, let’s just stick to the 20th

953
01:00:10,870 –> 01:00:14,710
century. Great American theologians of the 20th century. You

954
01:00:14,710 –> 01:00:18,550
get R.C. sproul. And I’m not knocking R.C. sproul. R.C. sproul was a giant. I

955
01:00:18,550 –> 01:00:21,310
mean, my God, like, ridiculous. But

956
01:00:24,590 –> 01:00:26,590
I mean, after that, you go all the way to the. You go all the

957
01:00:26,590 –> 01:00:30,270
way to the 19th century. So

958
01:00:30,270 –> 01:00:30,910
I think.

959
01:00:34,850 –> 01:00:37,810
I think American, not the American church, necessarily.

960
01:00:38,770 –> 01:00:42,570
To your friend’s point, there’s too many intramural fights going on right

961
01:00:42,570 –> 01:00:46,370
now. But I think the American culture

962
01:00:46,370 –> 01:00:49,970
needs a theology that comes from someone in the American church.

963
01:00:51,090 –> 01:00:53,970
And I don’t know who that will be. I don’t know who the someone is.

964
01:00:54,530 –> 01:00:58,090
A unifier. Well, I always think of the scene in

965
01:00:58,090 –> 01:01:01,890
Braveheart when all the Scottish lords are, like, yelling over their titles and

966
01:01:01,890 –> 01:01:05,210
they’re waving their papers around, and then the big guy that was with Mel Gibson

967
01:01:05,210 –> 01:01:08,170
in there picks up the ax and slams into the table. He’s like, shut up.

968
01:01:08,170 –> 01:01:11,570
We’re all just going to unite. We need the guy who’s the big guy who’s

969
01:01:11,570 –> 01:01:14,850
going to slam the ax in the table in the American church and say, we’re.

970
01:01:14,850 –> 01:01:18,650
Shut up. We’re all going to unite. And in

971
01:01:18,650 –> 01:01:22,330
the mid 20th century, the person who sort of had that

972
01:01:22,330 –> 01:01:25,020
most weight was Billy Graham. Mm.

973
01:01:26,300 –> 01:01:30,020
But even then, there were people who were opposed to Billy Graham

974
01:01:30,020 –> 01:01:33,580
because they looked at what he was doing and they went, yeah, you saved a

975
01:01:33,580 –> 01:01:37,180
Stadium, like 70,000 people, maybe. But,

976
01:01:37,180 –> 01:01:39,660
like, to what end?

977
01:01:40,940 –> 01:01:44,140
What are you doing there? That was Rush Dooney and all the guys from his

978
01:01:44,140 –> 01:01:47,780
right, political right, but his theological right, who are like, no, you’re

979
01:01:47,780 –> 01:01:51,460
foolish. And he ignored, of course, ignored all those guys because he was big enough

980
01:01:51,460 –> 01:01:54,060
to ignore all them. But they didn’t. I mean, they were publishing and they were

981
01:01:54,060 –> 01:01:57,640
writing and they were putting down books and they were saying like this is not

982
01:01:57,640 –> 01:02:01,320
sustainable. This is not what you do to like

983
01:02:02,200 –> 01:02:04,840
build a functioning theology in America.

984
01:02:07,160 –> 01:02:10,680
I also think that we don’t have a theology and this gets into some of

985
01:02:10,680 –> 01:02:14,200
the other things, but we don’t have a theology that actually

986
01:02:14,360 –> 01:02:17,880
addresses the cultural problems we have in America.

987
01:02:18,920 –> 01:02:20,040
We just don’t have it.

988
01:02:26,530 –> 01:02:29,970
Like what’s, what’s, like what was, what is the biblical application

989
01:02:30,050 –> 01:02:33,890
for? Okay, here’s an easy one. We,

990
01:02:33,890 –> 01:02:37,530
we, we were talking about marriage, right. And Lewis

991
01:02:37,530 –> 01:02:41,010
addresses marriage in here. Great. Not a problem.

992
01:02:42,050 –> 01:02:45,730
If you’ve been married more than five for

993
01:02:45,730 –> 01:02:49,400
five to 10 years, Lewis will absolutely be helpful for you. The chapters

994
01:02:49,400 –> 01:02:53,000
on Christian marriage and sexual morality, all that stuff will be absolutely

995
01:02:53,000 –> 01:02:56,840
helpful for you. If you are between 18

996
01:02:56,840 –> 01:03:00,600
and 34 and you are in college, none of those chapters will

997
01:03:00,600 –> 01:03:01,120
make sense.

998
01:03:06,960 –> 01:03:10,520
And maybe I shouldn’t say makes sense. Maybe I should say they won’t encourage you

999
01:03:10,520 –> 01:03:14,240
to go out and, and make

1000
01:03:14,240 –> 01:03:15,440
better choices on Tinder,

1001
01:03:20,640 –> 01:03:24,000
Which is, by the way, where the Herodian gen zers are. They’re on Tinder

1002
01:03:26,880 –> 01:03:30,560
trying to find, try to find a mate. Right,

1003
01:03:30,960 –> 01:03:34,480
right. Who they could be married to for. Because if they do these, they sell

1004
01:03:34,480 –> 01:03:38,320
the human biological drive, the law of nature drive to be married. Right.

1005
01:03:39,760 –> 01:03:42,680
And the thing that God put in them to be married. Right.

1006
01:03:44,200 –> 01:03:46,040
But the tool they have is Tinder

1007
01:03:49,320 –> 01:03:53,120
and there’s no theology around that. Well, what’s interesting is

1008
01:03:53,120 –> 01:03:56,800
that even though, you know, C S Lewis doesn’t pick any fights. No, he doesn’t.

1009
01:03:56,800 –> 01:04:00,560
Has and has, like you

1010
01:04:00,560 –> 01:04:03,080
said something for every, every kind of,

1011
01:04:04,520 –> 01:04:07,920
what did you call them? Five types. Every time, every, every type of

1012
01:04:07,920 –> 01:04:08,440
Christian.

1013
01:04:11,870 –> 01:04:15,550
There are still things that he lays down and he’s like, this is what

1014
01:04:15,550 –> 01:04:19,150
we believe as Christians. And one of those is, you

1015
01:04:19,150 –> 01:04:22,990
know, till death do us part.

1016
01:04:24,910 –> 01:04:27,790
And yes, the American church

1017
01:04:28,910 –> 01:04:32,750
doesn’t agree on that anymore either. So that’s, I didn’t

1018
01:04:32,750 –> 01:04:36,600
touch. And from my perspective, that’s one of the issues.

1019
01:04:36,600 –> 01:04:40,360
That’s one of the reasons American theology doesn’t have answers for the issues

1020
01:04:40,360 –> 01:04:44,000
of Americans culture is because we can’t agree. We

1021
01:04:44,000 –> 01:04:47,720
don’t. The, the American church does not agree till death

1022
01:04:47,720 –> 01:04:50,360
to us part. Right? And he, he got into

1023
01:04:51,400 –> 01:04:54,880
the. And, and part. Part of this, you could think about it like, you know,

1024
01:04:54,880 –> 01:04:58,120
the Anglican church is very close to the Catholic Church.

1025
01:04:58,600 –> 01:05:02,420
It was just like the king wanted to get divorced. And so

1026
01:05:02,420 –> 01:05:06,260
they was like, right, here’s my own church. It was like, but you can keep

1027
01:05:06,260 –> 01:05:09,940
believing basically the same thing. But also we’re gonna Try to kill all the Catholics

1028
01:05:09,940 –> 01:05:13,300
later. But. Yeah, yeah, yeah, later on. But then put that aside for a second.

1029
01:05:13,300 –> 01:05:15,180
Anyway, the history.

1030
01:05:17,260 –> 01:05:20,740
So anyway, he gets into, you know, the Christian

1031
01:05:20,740 –> 01:05:24,380
belief is that, you know, man, wife, one. One

1032
01:05:24,380 –> 01:05:28,110
person, and tearing them apart is like ripping a person in

1033
01:05:28,110 –> 01:05:31,550
half. And you don’t do that. Sure. Yep. And. And

1034
01:05:31,790 –> 01:05:35,630
churches don’t teach that anymore, so.

1035
01:05:35,630 –> 01:05:39,230
And they almost. You probably feel like you can’t. And. Well, I get it

1036
01:05:39,230 –> 01:05:42,910
because my mom got divorced, her husband

1037
01:05:43,630 –> 01:05:47,470
cheated on her and using her. But. And so

1038
01:05:47,470 –> 01:05:50,830
that’s. That’s one of those, like, okay, if the belief is

1039
01:05:52,440 –> 01:05:56,000
no divorce and the man is unfaithful and the man is

1040
01:05:56,000 –> 01:05:59,840
abusive now. But there is. But there is a theological

1041
01:05:59,840 –> 01:06:03,200
answer to that. There’s a biblical response. There’s a biblical response to that, right? There

1042
01:06:03,200 –> 01:06:06,480
is, but it’s difficult. It’s harder. Oh, the

1043
01:06:06,480 –> 01:06:09,760
tragedy. Oh, I get it. I get it. But this is why

1044
01:06:09,760 –> 01:06:13,360
America theology. Oh, the tragedy that you would be a

1045
01:06:13,360 –> 01:06:17,200
pastor that had to say something difficult and half your congregation might walk

1046
01:06:17,200 –> 01:06:20,660
out. But Hasan, you’re making my point. I know. This is why the American

1047
01:06:20,820 –> 01:06:24,660
church has no answers because they don’t want to teach anything. That’s

1048
01:06:24,660 –> 01:06:28,220
hard. So. Well, no, I think the American church has. I think the American

1049
01:06:28,220 –> 01:06:31,300
church has. No, I think the American church has no answers because they don’t.

1050
01:06:32,260 –> 01:06:35,980
There’s. There’s. Well. And just like in all areas,

1051
01:06:35,980 –> 01:06:38,900
I mean, we talk about leadership on this podcast, just like in all areas that

1052
01:06:38,900 –> 01:06:42,620
are impacted by leadership is a failure of leadership, which fundamentally means

1053
01:06:42,620 –> 01:06:46,370
it is a failure of courage. So here’s the thing. If you are

1054
01:06:46,370 –> 01:06:50,170
willing to be unliked. So I’m going to. I’m going to name a person here

1055
01:06:50,170 –> 01:06:53,770
who I. Who I believe has stated those things from his

1056
01:06:53,770 –> 01:06:57,530
church because he stated those things on his YouTube channel, his blogs, every podcast

1057
01:06:57,530 –> 01:07:00,530
you will actually get him on. He was just on with Sam Harris and said

1058
01:07:00,530 –> 01:07:02,810
a bunch of the same things that he’s been saying for the last 30 years.

1059
01:07:03,050 –> 01:07:06,890
He went into debates with Christopher Hitchens

1060
01:07:07,370 –> 01:07:10,870
and Richard Dawkins and the other new atheists way back in the year, back in

1061
01:07:10,870 –> 01:07:14,430
the year 2000, and defended himself successfully and defended Christianity and

1062
01:07:14,430 –> 01:07:17,830
apologetics. And by the way, he’s from the right of Billy Graham,

1063
01:07:18,550 –> 01:07:22,190
Doug Wilson. So if you go Google Doug

1064
01:07:22,190 –> 01:07:26,030
Wilson and you look at him, he comes out of a

1065
01:07:26,030 –> 01:07:28,630
specific Reformed, Presbyterian,

1066
01:07:28,870 –> 01:07:32,070
Calvinistic line

1067
01:07:33,830 –> 01:07:36,470
that believes that men are the head of the household,

1068
01:07:38,700 –> 01:07:42,500
that when divorce does occur, it can only

1069
01:07:42,500 –> 01:07:46,180
occur for a very narrow, specific

1070
01:07:46,180 –> 01:07:49,340
number of things that Marriage is for life.

1071
01:07:49,900 –> 01:07:52,620
That both men and women have sins

1072
01:07:55,180 –> 01:07:58,140
that are specific to them and their gender,

1073
01:08:00,220 –> 01:08:03,820
and that it’s not just men that need to change,

1074
01:08:03,820 –> 01:08:05,880
but also women, women that need to change.

1075
01:08:08,920 –> 01:08:12,520
And by the way, he also believes.

1076
01:08:12,600 –> 01:08:15,480
Well, and he also believes that if we’re actually going to be a nation

1077
01:08:16,440 –> 01:08:20,000
that actually is going to put Christian

1078
01:08:20,000 –> 01:08:22,680
ideals into our documents,

1079
01:08:23,800 –> 01:08:26,920
maybe sort of, it might be a good idea kind of

1080
01:08:27,400 –> 01:08:30,600
to actually acknowledge Jesus is Lord. Oh,

1081
01:08:33,480 –> 01:08:37,320
and he is not popular. He is not well liked. He

1082
01:08:37,320 –> 01:08:40,760
scares the hell out of everybody, from progressive, secular,

1083
01:08:40,760 –> 01:08:44,520
leftist, Marxist, communists all the way to, to your

1084
01:08:44,520 –> 01:08:48,240
point, the squishy pastors in big evangelical churches

1085
01:08:48,240 –> 01:08:51,480
that won’t say anything. And he has his own books.

1086
01:08:52,280 –> 01:08:55,720
He does. He. He started his own school, St. Andrew’s

1087
01:08:55,720 –> 01:08:59,390
College. He’s done things in his community in

1088
01:08:59,390 –> 01:09:03,190
Idaho. And now in his 70s, he’s getting more

1089
01:09:03,670 –> 01:09:07,190
play because Pete Hegeseth

1090
01:09:07,350 –> 01:09:10,870
joined his church, who’s the current secretary of War,

1091
01:09:11,030 –> 01:09:14,870
not defense, war. And he is being

1092
01:09:15,270 –> 01:09:18,710
put into all of these spaces now.

1093
01:09:19,670 –> 01:09:22,470
And people are, of course, clutching their pearls.

1094
01:09:23,680 –> 01:09:26,400
But the problem is, you can go back to 30 years on his blog post,

1095
01:09:26,400 –> 01:09:29,320
and he’s been saying basically the same thing and publishing the same thing since the

1096
01:09:29,320 –> 01:09:32,880
mid-1990s. He hasn’t changed his tune one bit.

1097
01:09:34,000 –> 01:09:37,520
You may not like the tune, you may disagree with the

1098
01:09:37,520 –> 01:09:41,280
tune, but he’s saying the things. And

1099
01:09:41,280 –> 01:09:45,000
by the way, there have been people in his church that have gotten divorced. There

1100
01:09:45,000 –> 01:09:48,520
have been people in his church who have suffered abuse at the hands of

1101
01:09:48,520 –> 01:09:52,240
spouses. And he has dealt with that underneath church discipline.

1102
01:09:52,679 –> 01:09:55,599
And those people, some of those people have come out and have spoken. Others have

1103
01:09:55,599 –> 01:09:59,359
kept their mouth shut. It’s individualized, right, because we live in

1104
01:09:59,359 –> 01:10:03,199
America. So there are those kinds of people floating around. There are those.

1105
01:10:03,199 –> 01:10:06,399
But you have to be willing to be unlike, not liked. You have to be

1106
01:10:06,399 –> 01:10:10,239
willing to like. He’s been. He started his, I think

1107
01:10:10,239 –> 01:10:13,999
he started his church back in the, in the mid-70s, and it took him,

1108
01:10:13,999 –> 01:10:17,639
what, 50 years to get here? What

1109
01:10:17,639 –> 01:10:21,399
big evangelical church leader do you know that runs a

1110
01:10:21,399 –> 01:10:25,050
mega church in the state in which you are in? Who’d be

1111
01:10:25,050 –> 01:10:28,450
willing to wait 50 years and grow? Well.

1112
01:10:31,650 –> 01:10:35,410
I mean, John MacArthur maybe. And he just died in California. I mean, he was

1113
01:10:35,410 –> 01:10:39,210
big. And, and he was big enough, by the way, when COVID 19 came

1114
01:10:39,210 –> 01:10:42,850
along to tell Gavin Newsom to go pound sand, which was kind of amazing

1115
01:10:42,850 –> 01:10:46,570
because most church people, mostly big

1116
01:10:46,570 –> 01:10:50,290
evangelical churches, were more afraid of the people leaving than they were

1117
01:10:50,290 –> 01:10:54,000
telling the civic government no, you stay in your school spot, Caesar. Which

1118
01:10:54,000 –> 01:10:56,360
is, by the way, is a constant question for us on this podcast. We get

1119
01:10:56,360 –> 01:11:00,120
to this part of our year, who tells Caesar to sit down?

1120
01:11:01,160 –> 01:11:04,760
And that’s got to be also a core of American theology, I would assert,

1121
01:11:05,080 –> 01:11:08,760
is there has to be an idea in there that

1122
01:11:08,760 –> 01:11:12,520
Caesar takes a second seat to God. And right now, we don’t have

1123
01:11:12,520 –> 01:11:15,600
that. We have the church and the state together. People like to talk a lot

1124
01:11:15,600 –> 01:11:19,370
about separation of churches. Say, da, da, da, stop. We

1125
01:11:19,370 –> 01:11:22,810
have church in the state and the state in the church, and actually, I would

1126
01:11:22,810 –> 01:11:26,490
say more state in the church with all that goes

1127
01:11:26,490 –> 01:11:30,290
along with that. So you do have those kinds

1128
01:11:30,290 –> 01:11:32,850
of folks, but they’re very tiny. They’re very tiny minority. And by the way, they

1129
01:11:32,850 –> 01:11:36,410
don’t get invited to conferences, and the polite people don’t like talking to them. Well,

1130
01:11:36,410 –> 01:11:40,130
one of the reasons I had trouble parsing your question was

1131
01:11:40,130 –> 01:11:43,490
like, who. Which. Which pastor of a mega church? Well, hold on.

1132
01:11:43,860 –> 01:11:47,340
Like, yeah, you almost have to stop. Because the idea of a

1133
01:11:47,340 –> 01:11:50,820
megachurch. Right. Implies money,

1134
01:11:51,940 –> 01:11:55,780
a lot of it. It implies Sadducees, doesn’t it? You don’t get a lot

1135
01:11:55,780 –> 01:11:58,420
of money by being unpopular.

1136
01:11:59,940 –> 01:12:03,220
Well, you can, but it takes a long time. It takes a long time.

1137
01:12:04,500 –> 01:12:08,300
Takes a long time. So, yeah. And

1138
01:12:08,300 –> 01:12:11,220
so I don’t. American church,

1139
01:12:12,260 –> 01:12:15,620
maybe 500 years from now, if America’s still around. But American

1140
01:12:15,780 –> 01:12:19,620
theology, Ah. A way of contemplating reality.

1141
01:12:20,100 –> 01:12:23,620
I think that’s an easier. I think that’s an easier get. Oh, that’s fair.

1142
01:12:24,420 –> 01:12:28,180
That’s fair. Making that distinction. But. And then something else that I was thinking about,

1143
01:12:28,420 –> 01:12:32,140
because to you, almost, this guy that you were talking about, this

1144
01:12:32,140 –> 01:12:35,220
one pastor who now has been put into the spotlight. Yeah. Doug Wilson.

1145
01:12:37,820 –> 01:12:41,580
Reminds me. It almost like the question in my head

1146
01:12:41,580 –> 01:12:45,380
was like, okay, how do you say all of these unpopular things and not

1147
01:12:45,380 –> 01:12:48,300
be one of the people that’s picking a fight? It’s like, well, that’s easy. Like,

1148
01:12:48,300 –> 01:12:51,940
you. You stand by what you believe. You say all these things, and

1149
01:12:51,940 –> 01:12:55,300
then to CS Lewis’s point, you just don’t go pick a fight. You don’t go

1150
01:12:55,300 –> 01:12:58,900
at people. No. You act still in

1151
01:12:58,900 –> 01:13:02,480
love. And, you know, you behave the way Jesus told you

1152
01:13:02,480 –> 01:13:05,880
to. The. The challenge that we also have in America, though,

1153
01:13:05,960 –> 01:13:08,600
is freedom of speech. So

1154
01:13:09,800 –> 01:13:13,560
if I. Reactions to freedom of speech, it’s almost now like,

1155
01:13:13,800 –> 01:13:17,440
oh, if you exercise your freedom of speech, you’re attacking me. And

1156
01:13:17,440 –> 01:13:21,240
it’s like, no. Right. So if I say

1157
01:13:22,120 –> 01:13:25,960
there will be some people might not

1158
01:13:25,960 –> 01:13:29,200
be this year, might not be next year, might be 10 years from now.

1159
01:13:30,240 –> 01:13:34,080
Who will listen to my show, will find

1160
01:13:34,080 –> 01:13:37,920
this episode and will say, will think that I have said

1161
01:13:37,920 –> 01:13:41,520
something that is incendiary or hurtful.

1162
01:13:43,120 –> 01:13:45,560
By the way, I’m more than prepared for that. That’s one of the reasons why

1163
01:13:45,560 –> 01:13:48,160
we don’t have sponsors on this show. And I find other ways to make money

1164
01:13:48,160 –> 01:13:51,840
around this show. Now, one or two things will happen at that point.

1165
01:13:51,840 –> 01:13:54,890
Either it will be buried by the algorithm,

1166
01:13:55,770 –> 01:13:58,730
or it will be resurrected by people looking for a problem.

1167
01:13:59,690 –> 01:14:03,410
And then they will come to me and they will start in

1168
01:14:03,410 –> 01:14:07,130
with me. Now, I’m

1169
01:14:07,130 –> 01:14:10,850
from Gen X. I’m the later end of Gen X. So my attitude

1170
01:14:10,850 –> 01:14:13,050
is always, I said what I said. I didn’t stutter.

1171
01:14:17,850 –> 01:14:20,800
Like, I don’t know what you want. Do you want me to apologize? I’m not

1172
01:14:20,800 –> 01:14:24,040
doing that. Oh, oh, you’re going to try to take away, like, food out of

1173
01:14:24,040 –> 01:14:27,880
my mouth or whatever. Good. Okay. Well, the paraphrase

1174
01:14:27,880 –> 01:14:31,160
from the. The hostages and taken to Liam Neeson, well, good luck.

1175
01:14:33,240 –> 01:14:36,400
There’s more than one way to make money in this world. There’s more than one

1176
01:14:36,400 –> 01:14:40,000
way to do something. And if I haven’t said anything that is, to our point

1177
01:14:40,000 –> 01:14:43,760
earlier, a salvation issue or sin issue. If I’ve merely stated reality as

1178
01:14:43,760 –> 01:14:47,250
it is. You don’t like that I put it in that way.

1179
01:14:48,050 –> 01:14:50,770
That’s really not, as my daddy would say, a me problem.

1180
01:14:52,050 –> 01:14:55,810
That’s really a you problem. And you might want to go off and trundle off

1181
01:14:55,810 –> 01:14:59,090
and go deal with that. But not. But. And

1182
01:14:59,410 –> 01:15:02,810
the Internet world we live in now, which is again, the reason why we did

1183
01:15:02,810 –> 01:15:06,370
an American theology, the theological

1184
01:15:06,450 –> 01:15:10,250
framework that existed for the last 2000 years in the

1185
01:15:10,250 –> 01:15:14,040
west hasn’t struggles when everybody can have

1186
01:15:14,040 –> 01:15:16,880
a voice. And radical free speech is the thing,

1187
01:15:18,560 –> 01:15:21,880
because radical free speech sure doesn’t mean radical freedom from

1188
01:15:21,880 –> 01:15:25,640
consequences. I’m not talking about that. What radical free speech means

1189
01:15:25,640 –> 01:15:28,960
is that people have to decide to our point about civility earlier.

1190
01:15:29,440 –> 01:15:33,240
Right. That we made way earlier in the show. What

1191
01:15:33,240 –> 01:15:36,880
it means is we have to choose what to be civil about

1192
01:15:36,880 –> 01:15:40,600
and what to not be civil about. And so Doug Wilson went

1193
01:15:40,600 –> 01:15:44,160
on Sam Harris’s podcast. Now, I know Sam Harris.

1194
01:15:44,800 –> 01:15:48,440
I. I don’t mean no personally, but I know who that guy is. I know

1195
01:15:48,440 –> 01:15:51,920
atheism inside and out. I’ve, I’ve heard all the arguments.

1196
01:15:53,280 –> 01:15:57,080
I’ve, I’ve looked at all of the assertions and

1197
01:15:57,080 –> 01:16:00,920
I know what the counter arguments are to atheism. And I’ve listened

1198
01:16:00,920 –> 01:16:04,160
to the Richard Dawkins and the Daniel Dennets and the Sam Harris’s and the Christopher

1199
01:16:04,160 –> 01:16:07,730
Hitchens of the world and all of their little acolytes running around on the

1200
01:16:07,730 –> 01:16:08,170
Internet.

1201
01:16:12,490 –> 01:16:14,650
And at the end of the day, atheism is for fools.

1202
01:16:15,930 –> 01:16:18,730
Sorry, it just. Actually, I’m not sorry. No, I said what I said, I’m a

1203
01:16:18,730 –> 01:16:22,450
Gen Xer. No, I’m not sorry. It’s for fools. You’re foolish. Yeah,

1204
01:16:22,450 –> 01:16:25,290
not sorry, actually, not sorry at all. There’s no mealy mouth about any of this.

1205
01:16:25,290 –> 01:16:28,810
I want to be very clear. I’m not sorry atheism

1206
01:16:29,530 –> 01:16:30,570
is for fools.

1207
01:16:33,540 –> 01:16:36,740
But guess what? You can go very far being foolish.

1208
01:16:37,060 –> 01:16:40,900
So I’m not going to get in your way. You can go very far, make

1209
01:16:40,900 –> 01:16:43,580
a lot of money, have a lot of influence being foolish. There’s a lot of

1210
01:16:43,580 –> 01:16:44,420
people who do.

1211
01:16:47,860 –> 01:16:51,540
I struggle with, of course, what not

1212
01:16:51,540 –> 01:16:55,260
I struggle with. My only thought is I hope that

1213
01:16:55,260 –> 01:16:59,060
you have a really good explanation for your foolishness when you get to wherever it

1214
01:16:59,060 –> 01:17:02,330
is your ineffable soul is going to. That’s my only caution.

1215
01:17:02,730 –> 01:17:06,490
But I’m not an evangelical type. I’m not going to try to convince you

1216
01:17:07,130 –> 01:17:10,810
because the evidence is already here. You’ve got everybody from

1217
01:17:10,810 –> 01:17:14,570
CS Lewis to the Church Fathers and if you won’t even, as Paul

1218
01:17:14,570 –> 01:17:18,130
would say, if you won’t even listen to them, why would you

1219
01:17:18,130 –> 01:17:18,890
listen to me?

1220
01:17:21,850 –> 01:17:25,330
So I’m not here to evangelize, I’m here to, yes, dismiss you as

1221
01:17:25,330 –> 01:17:28,980
foolish. I know your arguments. You don’t need to come and convince me or persuade,

1222
01:17:29,300 –> 01:17:32,900
move on. But Doug Wilson is evangelical

1223
01:17:33,060 –> 01:17:36,700
and so he’s going to go on Sam Harris’s podcast and he’s going to say

1224
01:17:36,700 –> 01:17:40,420
everything that he would normally say and Sam

1225
01:17:40,420 –> 01:17:44,140
Harris is going to make the faces that he makes with his non verbal, you

1226
01:17:44,140 –> 01:17:47,660
know, skepticism. And then I’m going to look because. And I

1227
01:17:47,660 –> 01:17:50,500
shouldn’t, but I’m going to look at the YouTube comments below that interview

1228
01:17:54,010 –> 01:17:57,690
and I’m going to see all of the people with weak theology,

1229
01:17:58,730 –> 01:18:01,530
weak worldview, no worldview,

1230
01:18:02,730 –> 01:18:06,010
a differing worldview or your confused worldview

1231
01:18:06,570 –> 01:18:09,370
pop out like, well,

1232
01:18:10,810 –> 01:18:14,530
like all of the legion of demons on Twitter and

1233
01:18:14,530 –> 01:18:18,380
they’re just going to come out and we don’t have again a

1234
01:18:18,380 –> 01:18:22,180
theological proposition for how to deal with that communication,

1235
01:18:22,180 –> 01:18:25,780
interaction. And that’s what I where I think a uniquely American

1236
01:18:25,860 –> 01:18:29,660
perspective would be helpful because how do you forgive

1237
01:18:29,660 –> 01:18:32,820
people who are, you know, how do you forgive.

1238
01:18:35,140 –> 01:18:37,620
Dumpyman45mail.com

1239
01:18:38,820 –> 01:18:42,500
who said something hurtful, you know, below, you know,

1240
01:18:42,500 –> 01:18:46,340
some video you posted, like, what’s the theological framework for

1241
01:18:46,340 –> 01:18:49,900
dealing with. Dealing with flavor girl55

1242
01:18:50,540 –> 01:18:54,220
that like posted a Nazi meme underneath your. Your

1243
01:18:54,220 –> 01:18:57,860
com. Right. Like the church has. The American

1244
01:18:57,860 –> 01:19:01,540
church has no theology for how to deal with that. And I don’t see

1245
01:19:01,540 –> 01:19:05,060
it getting better because AI allows you to do

1246
01:19:05,060 –> 01:19:08,220
all of this and more at scale.

1247
01:19:08,700 –> 01:19:09,180
Yeah.

1248
01:19:12,710 –> 01:19:16,190
And so that’s why I say American theology might be a better, easier get as

1249
01:19:16,190 –> 01:19:19,470
far as the church that will come out of that. Well, I mean, I would

1250
01:19:19,470 –> 01:19:22,150
hope it wouldn’t be the church of Elon Musk’s robot.

1251
01:19:26,550 –> 01:19:28,550
I would also hope that.

1252
01:19:30,550 –> 01:19:33,550
But I think we have to. We’re still going to have those same five divisions.

1253
01:19:33,550 –> 01:19:36,550
We’re still going to have the Herodians and the Sadducees and the Essenes and the

1254
01:19:36,550 –> 01:19:39,980
Zealots and the Pharisees. But where their

1255
01:19:39,980 –> 01:19:43,620
theology will be warped, that

1256
01:19:43,700 –> 01:19:47,300
will be the challenge. But we’re still going to have those same five types.

1257
01:19:48,500 –> 01:19:51,100
We’re still going to have the people who love the world and they love the

1258
01:19:51,100 –> 01:19:53,060
fight and they love the technology and

1259
01:19:54,980 –> 01:19:57,940
they love the tinder to go back to the Gen Z or for just a

1260
01:19:57,940 –> 01:20:00,340
minute. And we’re going to have the Pharisee

1261
01:20:01,540 –> 01:20:04,950
Karens, crazy Karens, who will be,

1262
01:20:05,190 –> 01:20:08,990
you know, stripped of the theology but will have all

1263
01:20:08,990 –> 01:20:12,590
of the need to correct is like, that didn’t go

1264
01:20:12,590 –> 01:20:15,910
away. It just needed to be funneled in a particular direction. Right.

1265
01:20:16,870 –> 01:20:20,550
We’ll still have the Essene types who will be your genuine believers who want to

1266
01:20:20,550 –> 01:20:24,270
go hide in the mountains. And of course, you will have your zealous types

1267
01:20:24,270 –> 01:20:27,670
who will be incredibly passionate about you coming to the Church of Elon Musk

1268
01:20:28,310 –> 01:20:31,330
because they believe they found the key. They found the thing,

1269
01:20:32,290 –> 01:20:35,530
you know, the Gnostic secret knowledge that has been hidden from us. By the way,

1270
01:20:35,530 –> 01:20:39,290
most people are also conspiracy theorists, by the way, on the Internet. That’s also like

1271
01:20:39,290 –> 01:20:42,210
those people. All the Venn diagram overlaps.

1272
01:20:43,730 –> 01:20:47,290
Right. They’re the ones who are going to ask you, when did you sell out

1273
01:20:47,290 –> 01:20:49,170
to Big Pharma? If they ever have to go to therapy,

1274
01:20:50,930 –> 01:20:53,730
those people, and God bless them, by the way, like, we need those people.

1275
01:20:55,330 –> 01:20:58,600
And then you also, of course, will have your Sadducees. And

1276
01:20:59,160 –> 01:21:02,920
BIG is going to be a different thing. I think in the next 50 to

1277
01:21:02,920 –> 01:21:06,680
100 years, big isn’t going to be a megachurch with 3,000 people every Sunday.

1278
01:21:07,000 –> 01:21:10,280
I don’t think that model is going to survive. I Think that model is breaking

1279
01:21:10,280 –> 01:21:13,360
up in real time. And that’s part of the other chaos that we’re experiencing right

1280
01:21:13,360 –> 01:21:17,120
now. Like, I don’t know how big your church is, but the churches

1281
01:21:17,120 –> 01:21:20,360
that I’ve been looking at for my family are between 150 to 300 people,

1282
01:21:21,080 –> 01:21:24,370
max. Yeah.

1283
01:21:24,930 –> 01:21:28,210
As you can’t know. You can’t know. You can’t build relationships with anybody

1284
01:21:28,770 –> 01:21:31,250
beyond, I mean, Dunbar’s number. Beyond 100 people.

1285
01:21:32,610 –> 01:21:36,410
Yeah. I mean, Arch, the parish that we go

1286
01:21:36,410 –> 01:21:39,890
to is probably one of the bigger ones in San Diego, but

1287
01:21:41,570 –> 01:21:44,930
even then, it’s. It’s not. It’s definitely not 3,000 people.

1288
01:21:45,730 –> 01:21:49,510
But even with the number, even 100 to 300 people is hard, hard to

1289
01:21:49,510 –> 01:21:53,230
build relationships. So, like, it is point of making. Sure. Like, hey,

1290
01:21:53,230 –> 01:21:56,910
let’s. Let’s get small groups. Let’s get you

1291
01:21:56,910 –> 01:22:00,070
into small groups. Let’s get you into home groups. And I think that that model

1292
01:22:00,390 –> 01:22:03,510
on a 300 and lower, you know, kind of

1293
01:22:04,310 –> 01:22:05,830
level works.

1294
01:22:08,550 –> 01:22:12,270
And, and part of the. The collapse of big evangelicals, just like the collapse of

1295
01:22:12,270 –> 01:22:15,760
everything else big that came out of the 20th century, mass media,

1296
01:22:15,840 –> 01:22:19,680
mass industry, mass whatever, mass church, all of that is, is.

1297
01:22:20,000 –> 01:22:23,160
Has collapsed in the last 25 years. And that’s the other part of the chaos

1298
01:22:23,160 –> 01:22:25,920
that we’re in right now. So. So again, your friend can listen to this entire

1299
01:22:25,920 –> 01:22:29,680
little segment here, and then he can contact. Feel free to contact me and we’ll

1300
01:22:29,680 –> 01:22:33,360
look up a conversation. I’m sure you guys would have a fascinating

1301
01:22:33,360 –> 01:22:35,040
conversation, and I want to listen to it.

1302
01:22:37,840 –> 01:22:40,000
Okay, back to the book for just a moment. I want to. I want to

1303
01:22:40,000 –> 01:22:42,400
take a moment and talk about a little bit about the structure of the book.

1304
01:22:42,400 –> 01:22:45,920
So the book is divided up and does come from

1305
01:22:45,920 –> 01:22:49,320
C.S. lewis’s recorded. Oh,

1306
01:22:49,560 –> 01:22:53,280
radio broadcast talks that were. That were

1307
01:22:53,280 –> 01:22:56,040
done in the. In the, in the 1940s. And,

1308
01:22:57,240 –> 01:23:00,280
you know, book one talks about right and wrong is a clue to the meaning

1309
01:23:00,280 –> 01:23:03,400
of the universe. Then we have what Christians believe in book two.

1310
01:23:03,880 –> 01:23:07,400
Then we have book three, which is Christian behavior, which covers things like

1311
01:23:07,400 –> 01:23:10,920
morality, cardinal virtues, social morality, forgiveness, hope, faith,

1312
01:23:11,100 –> 01:23:14,660
charity. And then we have a fourth book which is Beyond

1313
01:23:14,660 –> 01:23:18,060
Personality or the First Steps in the Doctrine of the

1314
01:23:18,060 –> 01:23:21,740
Trinity. Now, if you’ve never heard of the doctrine of the Trinity, let me sort

1315
01:23:21,740 –> 01:23:25,340
of lay this on you. So Christians believe,

1316
01:23:25,420 –> 01:23:28,300
fundamentally, I believe this, that

1317
01:23:29,340 –> 01:23:32,780
the Godhead, God as.

1318
01:23:33,820 –> 01:23:37,610
Whether you decide to describe God as an existential entity

1319
01:23:37,610 –> 01:23:41,290
with no body, which. Okay. Or you decide to

1320
01:23:41,290 –> 01:23:44,810
describe God as a person

1321
01:23:44,810 –> 01:23:48,650
walking around. Okay. Christians hold to the

1322
01:23:48,650 –> 01:23:52,170
belief in a triune God. This is what separates Christians

1323
01:23:52,250 –> 01:23:56,050
from Muslims. There is no God but Allah and

1324
01:23:56,050 –> 01:23:59,610
Muhammad is his prophet. Or Jews, where

1325
01:24:00,250 –> 01:24:03,620
there is no God but Yahweh, period, full stop.

1326
01:24:04,340 –> 01:24:07,940
And he said multiple prophets and other kinds of people wanted to work with him.

1327
01:24:07,940 –> 01:24:11,380
Okay, so Jews and Muslims

1328
01:24:11,780 –> 01:24:15,620
and Christians are all part of the big three monotheistic

1329
01:24:16,340 –> 01:24:20,140
religions. Where Christianity separates from Islam

1330
01:24:20,140 –> 01:24:23,220
and Judaism is. Christianity makes a bold claim.

1331
01:24:23,700 –> 01:24:27,500
Christianity claims that God not only created

1332
01:24:27,500 –> 01:24:30,830
the earth, but that God stepped into history

1333
01:24:31,390 –> 01:24:35,110
and stepped into creation and stepped into the material

1334
01:24:35,110 –> 01:24:38,950
world in the form of. And we’re recording this right around the

1335
01:24:38,950 –> 01:24:42,750
time of Christmas in the form of the baby Jesus in the manger.

1336
01:24:44,190 –> 01:24:47,390
And that Jesus lived a life

1337
01:24:48,270 –> 01:24:51,790
where he experienced or was tempted by everything

1338
01:24:51,790 –> 01:24:55,190
that man was tempted by and experienced, everything that man and

1339
01:24:55,190 –> 01:24:58,750
experienced died, was

1340
01:24:58,750 –> 01:25:02,590
crucified, died, was, was buried in

1341
01:25:02,590 –> 01:25:06,190
a tomb and three days later was resurrected in

1342
01:25:06,190 –> 01:25:09,710
fulfillment of the scripture, as they say in the Catholic

1343
01:25:10,270 –> 01:25:10,670
Mass.

1344
01:25:13,870 –> 01:25:17,630
And that upon his ascent into

1345
01:25:17,630 –> 01:25:19,790
heaven, by the way, bodily

1346
01:25:23,080 –> 01:25:26,800
wrap your brain around that the Holy Spirit

1347
01:25:26,800 –> 01:25:30,440
was then sent down as a comforter, spoken of

1348
01:25:30,440 –> 01:25:34,040
specifically in Matthew 24, but was sent as a comforter.

1349
01:25:34,440 –> 01:25:38,200
And that in Acts 2, the comforter

1350
01:25:38,360 –> 01:25:42,000
fell on 3,000 souls at Jerusalem. And

1351
01:25:42,000 –> 01:25:45,640
thus began the spread or the collapse, if you will. As

1352
01:25:45,640 –> 01:25:49,250
Paul Johnson, the historian Orient of Christianity and many other

1353
01:25:49,730 –> 01:25:53,330
history books that he wrote, he wrote a great book called the History of Christianity.

1354
01:25:53,970 –> 01:25:57,810
He basically traces the beginning of

1355
01:25:59,730 –> 01:26:03,170
God working into the world in a more

1356
01:26:04,210 –> 01:26:08,010
material kind of way than just with the law, as was during the

1357
01:26:08,010 –> 01:26:11,730
time of the Old Testament. He traces that. And I believe

1358
01:26:11,730 –> 01:26:15,290
theologically this does align with Christianity. And by the way, Paul Johnson, I believe, was

1359
01:26:15,290 –> 01:26:16,890
also Catholic, if I remember correctly,

1360
01:26:19,040 –> 01:26:22,880
aligns with the idea or not lines, but it matches with

1361
01:26:22,880 –> 01:26:26,720
the idea that God is in the world and

1362
01:26:26,720 –> 01:26:30,000
God cares about the world and that the

1363
01:26:30,000 –> 01:26:33,640
triune God, God the Father, God the Son and

1364
01:26:33,640 –> 01:26:37,280
God the Holy Spirit are all engaged with

1365
01:26:37,280 –> 01:26:40,800
or have been engaged with creation and continue and will continue

1366
01:26:40,960 –> 01:26:44,770
to be engaged with creation all the way to the end of the world.

1367
01:26:45,090 –> 01:26:48,770
Which may or may not, depending upon your perspective, be

1368
01:26:48,770 –> 01:26:52,610
described in the book of Revelation. A really wild book

1369
01:26:52,690 –> 01:26:55,810
at the end of Bible. Real wild.

1370
01:26:56,130 –> 01:26:59,650
Oh, would not recommend start at the beginning. Start,

1371
01:26:59,730 –> 01:27:02,770
begin with Genesis. Don’t start at the end, don’t start at the end.

1372
01:27:04,690 –> 01:27:08,290
So Christian eschatla, Christitology, Christian theology.

1373
01:27:11,170 –> 01:27:14,370
Is. Built around the concept of a triune God.

1374
01:27:15,250 –> 01:27:18,890
A triune God that exists not only in spirit, but also in

1375
01:27:18,890 –> 01:27:22,570
body and throughout creation. All at the

1376
01:27:22,570 –> 01:27:26,210
same time, all operating equally and

1377
01:27:26,210 –> 01:27:27,650
all being equally God.

1378
01:27:31,090 –> 01:27:34,290
I believe I’ve covered everything in there. And Lewis.

1379
01:27:35,010 –> 01:27:38,850
Well, it was a lot there. 10,000 foot review. I

1380
01:27:38,850 –> 01:27:42,320
believe I’ve covered everything in the 10,000 foot review. And so Lewis covers a lot

1381
01:27:42,320 –> 01:27:45,720
of that in book four, with

1382
01:27:45,720 –> 01:27:49,320
chapter titles such as Counting the Cost, let’s Pretend,

1383
01:27:49,320 –> 01:27:51,720
Two Notes, the New Men.

1384
01:27:53,080 –> 01:27:56,880
But also in Making and Begetting, which is one of

1385
01:27:56,880 –> 01:28:00,640
his seminal chapters coming out of

1386
01:28:00,640 –> 01:28:04,120
this book, and he says this.

1387
01:28:04,840 –> 01:28:08,260
This is specifically about theology. Now,

1388
01:28:08,260 –> 01:28:11,860
theology is like the map, merely learning and thinking about Christian

1389
01:28:11,860 –> 01:28:15,220
doctrines. If you stop there is less real and less exciting than the sort of

1390
01:28:15,220 –> 01:28:18,900
thing my friend has got in the desert. Doctrines are not God,

1391
01:28:19,540 –> 01:28:22,820
they are only kind of a map. But that map is based on the experience

1392
01:28:22,899 –> 01:28:25,780
of hundreds of people who really were in touch with God.

1393
01:28:26,020 –> 01:28:29,780
Experiences compared with which any thrills

1394
01:28:29,780 –> 01:28:33,330
or pious feelings you and I are likely to get on our own are very

1395
01:28:33,330 –> 01:28:37,170
elementary and very confused. And secondly, if you want to get a

1396
01:28:37,170 –> 01:28:40,850
little further, you must use the map. You see, what happened to

1397
01:28:40,850 –> 01:28:43,970
that man in the desert may have been real. It was certainly exciting, but nothing

1398
01:28:43,970 –> 01:28:47,650
comes of it. It leads nowhere. There is nothing to do about it.

1399
01:28:47,650 –> 01:28:51,290
In fact, that is just why a vague

1400
01:28:51,290 –> 01:28:54,890
religion, all about feeling God in nature and so on and so on,

1401
01:28:54,890 –> 01:28:58,490
is attractive. It is all thrills and no

1402
01:28:58,490 –> 01:29:02,220
work, like watching waves from the beach. But you will not get

1403
01:29:02,220 –> 01:29:06,060
to Newfoundland by studying the Atlantic that way. And you will not get

1404
01:29:06,060 –> 01:29:09,900
eternal life by simply feeling the presence of God in flowers or in music.

1405
01:29:10,540 –> 01:29:14,300
Neither will you get anywhere by looking at maps without going to sea, nor

1406
01:29:14,300 –> 01:29:18,100
will you be very safe if you go to sea without a map. In other

1407
01:29:18,100 –> 01:29:21,860
words, theology is practical, especially now. In the old days, when there

1408
01:29:21,860 –> 01:29:24,820
was less education and discussion, perhaps it was possible to get on with a very

1409
01:29:24,820 –> 01:29:28,280
few simple ideas about God. But it is not so now. Everyone

1410
01:29:28,280 –> 01:29:31,560
weeds, everyone hears things discussed. Consequently,

1411
01:29:32,280 –> 01:29:35,800
if you do not listen to theology, that will not mean that you have

1412
01:29:35,960 –> 01:29:39,320
no idea about God. It will mean that you have a lot of wrong ones,

1413
01:29:39,480 –> 01:29:43,040
bad, muddled, out of date ideas. For a great many of the

1414
01:29:43,040 –> 01:29:46,520
ideas about God which are trotted out as novelties today are simply the ones which

1415
01:29:46,520 –> 01:29:50,240
real theologians tried centuries ago and rejected. To

1416
01:29:50,240 –> 01:29:52,600
believe in the popular religion of modern England is

1417
01:29:53,260 –> 01:29:56,380
retrogression like believing the earth is flat.

1418
01:29:57,740 –> 01:30:01,420
For when you get down to it, is not the popular idea of Christianity

1419
01:30:01,420 –> 01:30:04,820
simply this, that Jesus Christ was a great moral teacher and that if we only

1420
01:30:04,820 –> 01:30:07,460
took his advice, he might be able to establish a Better social order and avoid

1421
01:30:07,460 –> 01:30:11,260
another war. Now mind you, that is quite true, but it tells

1422
01:30:11,260 –> 01:30:14,820
you much less than the whole truth about Christianity. And it has

1423
01:30:14,820 –> 01:30:18,620
no practical importance at all.

1424
01:30:20,720 –> 01:30:24,240
By the way, I recently

1425
01:30:24,560 –> 01:30:27,040
had a discussion with somebody who had muddled theology.

1426
01:30:28,240 –> 01:30:31,800
And in reading, not in

1427
01:30:31,800 –> 01:30:35,320
reading, because I. I knew this before Lewis, but in listening to what they were

1428
01:30:35,320 –> 01:30:35,840
talking about,

1429
01:30:38,960 –> 01:30:42,480
it occurred to me, oh my gosh, everything that this person is talking about

1430
01:30:43,040 –> 01:30:45,600
comes out of gnostic heresies and they don’t even know that term.

1431
01:30:52,300 –> 01:30:55,980
All things old become new again. Was

1432
01:30:55,980 –> 01:30:59,300
it that book, that hoary book, Ecclesiastes and that horror Horry old thing, the Old

1433
01:30:59,300 –> 01:31:03,140
Testament. A horri Old Testament, you know, there is no new

1434
01:31:03,140 –> 01:31:03,900
thing under the sun.

1435
01:31:08,140 –> 01:31:10,540
Okay, a couple of other areas I would like to cover. I know we got.

1436
01:31:10,540 –> 01:31:13,510
We’re short on. Short on time here. I’m going to cut out a whole section

1437
01:31:13,750 –> 01:31:17,230
about American theology because we already kind of covered that. Although I will say this,

1438
01:31:17,230 –> 01:31:19,030
I will make one point about this.

1439
01:31:29,350 –> 01:31:33,070
COVID 19 was a seismic event for the

1440
01:31:33,070 –> 01:31:36,910
American church. It was a seismic

1441
01:31:36,910 –> 01:31:40,550
moment where the American church could have really established itself as a unified church.

1442
01:31:41,040 –> 01:31:42,400
And it missed the moment

1443
01:31:44,240 –> 01:31:44,960
dramatically.

1444
01:31:48,080 –> 01:31:51,840
And I think that’s why folks like yourself, folks 10 years

1445
01:31:51,840 –> 01:31:55,040
younger than me, are struggling to find churches now.

1446
01:31:56,160 –> 01:31:59,800
Because COVID 19 exposed that for people who

1447
01:31:59,800 –> 01:32:03,440
are like half a generation younger than me in real ways

1448
01:32:03,760 –> 01:32:07,130
and people a full generation younger than me, the gen zers

1449
01:32:07,370 –> 01:32:10,850
are in total confusion, total theological

1450
01:32:10,850 –> 01:32:14,170
confusion. And that can be fully laid at the feet of

1451
01:32:16,090 –> 01:32:19,090
pastors and denominations. Not theology, but pastors and

1452
01:32:19,090 –> 01:32:22,490
denominations in the American Christian church.

1453
01:32:37,380 –> 01:32:41,140
Why do we struggle with the simplicity of sin? Switch to that.

1454
01:32:41,140 –> 01:32:44,860
Let’s close. Let’s. Let’s close out with that one. Why do

1455
01:32:44,860 –> 01:32:48,540
we. I mean, so, so perfect penitent, right. That whole entire

1456
01:32:48,540 –> 01:32:51,620
chapter on which is on sin. Right? And

1457
01:32:52,580 –> 01:32:56,100
he points out in that chapter that a couple different things.

1458
01:32:56,180 –> 01:33:00,030
So Lewis talks about the three going into the three parts of morality

1459
01:33:00,030 –> 01:33:03,310
and trying to figure all that out. And he talks about

1460
01:33:03,310 –> 01:33:06,830
repentance and he talks about, you know, sort of what kind of what a

1461
01:33:06,830 –> 01:33:10,470
penitential sort of posture is towards.

1462
01:33:11,030 –> 01:33:14,790
Towards. Towards Jesus in the New Testament. And

1463
01:33:14,790 –> 01:33:18,430
he says this in my, in my book, it says this. The

1464
01:33:18,430 –> 01:33:21,870
central Christian belief is that Christ’s death has somehow put us right with God and

1465
01:33:21,870 –> 01:33:25,670
given us a fresh. A fresh start. Theories as

1466
01:33:25,670 –> 01:33:29,430
to how it did this are another matter. A good many different theories have been

1467
01:33:29,430 –> 01:33:32,950
held as to how it works. What all Christians agree on is that it

1468
01:33:32,950 –> 01:33:34,190
does work.

1469
01:33:36,590 –> 01:33:40,029
Okay. How do you even have that

1470
01:33:40,190 –> 01:33:43,910
conversation with people who don’t

1471
01:33:43,910 –> 01:33:47,070
even believe in sin in the first place

1472
01:33:48,030 –> 01:33:50,920
or when you give it to them? I’ll put this to you because I’ve done

1473
01:33:50,920 –> 01:33:54,200
this before. When you give it to them as an explanation for why things are

1474
01:33:54,200 –> 01:33:57,440
upside down, they look at you like that’s too simple.

1475
01:33:59,680 –> 01:34:03,280
The simplicity of that explanation underwhelms,

1476
01:34:04,720 –> 01:34:05,600
to say the least.

1477
01:34:14,480 –> 01:34:17,940
Yeah, I have a couple. I have lots of thoughts.

1478
01:34:18,020 –> 01:34:21,540
Yes, I have lots of thoughts. I don’t know if any of them are good

1479
01:34:21,860 –> 01:34:25,140
or credible or whatever, but I had a couple

1480
01:34:25,140 –> 01:34:28,180
flashes. Yes, the simplicity of sin.

1481
01:34:28,900 –> 01:34:30,740
But simplicity of sin still

1482
01:34:32,340 –> 01:34:34,180
presupposes, that’s the word,

1483
01:34:38,660 –> 01:34:42,460
An actual true moral right, wrong. So I think it

1484
01:34:42,460 –> 01:34:46,180
goes back to the point we made a lot earlier, is that we’re drowning in

1485
01:34:46,180 –> 01:34:50,020
moral relativism. And so that’s why

1486
01:34:50,020 –> 01:34:53,780
I think the simplicity of sin can boggle the mind. Because

1487
01:34:54,260 –> 01:34:57,699
with the, with moral relativism, we’re

1488
01:34:57,780 –> 01:35:00,740
so consumed with the question why?

1489
01:35:02,180 –> 01:35:05,900
And trying to answer it in all sort of very

1490
01:35:05,900 –> 01:35:09,520
complicated ways. And it’s not that the pursuit of

1491
01:35:09,520 –> 01:35:13,240
the answer to that question has not led

1492
01:35:13,240 –> 01:35:16,720
to some very useful discoveries of information.

1493
01:35:16,960 –> 01:35:20,720
Right. Because I feel like it’s helped, like, helps

1494
01:35:20,720 –> 01:35:23,520
us understand the brain better. And there’s been like,

1495
01:35:23,920 –> 01:35:27,760
psychologies and, and, and all that. I,

1496
01:35:27,760 –> 01:35:28,480
I think that’s been.

1497
01:35:34,410 –> 01:35:38,090
But when you steep yourself in all of that,

1498
01:35:38,090 –> 01:35:41,890
because it is very intricate and it’s, it’s like. It’s

1499
01:35:41,890 –> 01:35:45,610
like you’re taking apart a person and trying to

1500
01:35:45,610 –> 01:35:49,410
analyze and dissect, even mentally, just the brain. There’s

1501
01:35:49,410 –> 01:35:53,210
so much going on. It’s very complicated. Then, of course, when

1502
01:35:53,210 –> 01:35:56,970
you say, well, this is what underpins

1503
01:35:57,370 –> 01:36:01,060
all of this chaos, they’re just like. But,

1504
01:36:03,380 –> 01:36:07,140
no, that’s my perspective anyway.

1505
01:36:07,620 –> 01:36:10,860
But, but then, yeah, that it just. The big

1506
01:36:10,860 –> 01:36:13,860
disconnect is the, the. We just believe in

1507
01:36:15,940 –> 01:36:18,820
a strict moral right and wrong.

1508
01:36:20,340 –> 01:36:23,220
And the pursuit of the answer

1509
01:36:24,100 –> 01:36:27,200
away from that, I think, has just.

1510
01:36:29,040 –> 01:36:31,920
Is the pursuit of the answer away from that.

1511
01:36:36,080 –> 01:36:38,400
I could hear. I could hear that. I could hear this being asked. So I’m

1512
01:36:38,400 –> 01:36:42,000
just going to ask it, ask it. Is the pursuit away from that simplicity

1513
01:36:42,000 –> 01:36:45,680
sinful in and of itself, or is that just merely deception?

1514
01:36:45,920 –> 01:36:48,640
I don’t. So I think.

1515
01:36:53,210 –> 01:36:56,810
That the pursuit is obfuscating. The

1516
01:36:56,810 –> 01:37:00,250
simplicity is the work of the enemy.

1517
01:37:02,650 –> 01:37:05,370
But the pursuit in and of itself,

1518
01:37:06,330 –> 01:37:10,050
I think, because it’s a pursuit of knowledge and truth, even

1519
01:37:10,050 –> 01:37:13,130
if it’s predicated on a bad supposition,

1520
01:37:13,850 –> 01:37:16,350
the pursuit of knowledge and truth is always a good thing

1521
01:37:17,940 –> 01:37:21,700
because I think that’s what God has instilled in our souls and our

1522
01:37:21,700 –> 01:37:25,300
nature. And so, yes,

1523
01:37:25,300 –> 01:37:29,020
that’s, that’s my. Okay. I don’t think the suit itself is

1524
01:37:29,020 –> 01:37:32,380
bad, but I think that things have gotten cloudy and

1525
01:37:32,380 –> 01:37:36,180
confusing. Like, I think, I think there’s a verse. I don’t, I don’t know

1526
01:37:36,180 –> 01:37:39,860
what it is, but I think there’s a verse like the enemy is the. The

1527
01:37:39,860 –> 01:37:43,520
source of confusion. Yep. And so

1528
01:37:43,520 –> 01:37:47,200
just that, that, that’s happening from that pursuit.

1529
01:37:47,280 –> 01:37:50,920
Totally. That makes sense to me. So the, the

1530
01:37:50,920 –> 01:37:54,560
ability to make that distinction. Do you need a.

1531
01:37:56,720 –> 01:38:00,160
This is gonna be an atheist. This is an atheist. Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins question.

1532
01:38:00,160 –> 01:38:03,280
So here we go. Just prefacing it so, you know, you know, the, you know,

1533
01:38:03,280 –> 01:38:06,840
the pool this, this bubbles up out of. Do you really

1534
01:38:06,840 –> 01:38:07,200
need

1535
01:38:11,000 –> 01:38:14,800
the belief in a triune God in order to make these moral

1536
01:38:14,800 –> 01:38:15,480
distinctions?

1537
01:38:25,400 –> 01:38:29,000
This might be heresy. I don’t know. I’m not an apologetic,

1538
01:38:29,000 –> 01:38:32,280
Apologetic person. Apolog.

1539
01:38:32,760 –> 01:38:36,360
Apolog. Apologist. Apologist. Like, what is the word?

1540
01:38:37,810 –> 01:38:41,170
I am not an apologist, but my brain goes back

1541
01:38:41,490 –> 01:38:45,250
to your average medieval peasant

1542
01:38:45,970 –> 01:38:49,570
who was going to mass every morning before they got to

1543
01:38:49,570 –> 01:38:53,370
fields. They went to mass, they went to work, they

1544
01:38:53,370 –> 01:38:56,690
went to sleep, they went to mass, they went to work, they went to sleep.

1545
01:38:57,170 –> 01:39:00,810
They’re probably. If they knew about the triune God,

1546
01:39:00,810 –> 01:39:04,500
they weren’t spending a lot of time contemplating it or

1547
01:39:04,500 –> 01:39:08,180
figuring out what it meant to believe that, but they were still doing

1548
01:39:08,180 –> 01:39:09,660
their best to be

1549
01:39:12,620 –> 01:39:16,300
the. A good Christian as they were taught the Bible said.

1550
01:39:16,620 –> 01:39:19,500
Yeah. So I.

1551
01:39:21,340 –> 01:39:25,060
That being said, you know, with the information now, especially in American

1552
01:39:25,060 –> 01:39:28,860
theology and American church, the triune God there, that’s really in your face.

1553
01:39:29,280 –> 01:39:33,080
We, we talk about that a lot. So for

1554
01:39:33,080 –> 01:39:36,800
us, the answer might be different, maybe, but for

1555
01:39:36,800 –> 01:39:40,400
someone who is just. But

1556
01:39:40,720 –> 01:39:44,080
I don’t want to. I don’t want to say necessarily a normal person, but like

1557
01:39:44,480 –> 01:39:47,920
someone who’s not feeling like they need to

1558
01:39:47,920 –> 01:39:51,640
contemplate these things. I think the answer might be

1559
01:39:51,640 –> 01:39:55,240
no. But I think, And I think C.S. lewis gets into

1560
01:39:55,240 –> 01:39:58,800
this where it’s like some of

1561
01:39:58,800 –> 01:40:01,400
these intricacies of the theology

1562
01:40:04,600 –> 01:40:07,880
and. Oh, sorry. That the answer, as much as we don’t believe in moral

1563
01:40:07,880 –> 01:40:11,719
relativism, that God always meets everybody where they

1564
01:40:11,719 –> 01:40:15,320
are. Right. And so if,

1565
01:40:15,480 –> 01:40:19,160
if grappling with a triune God is

1566
01:40:19,560 –> 01:40:23,410
breaking your brain, don’t worry about it.

1567
01:40:23,810 –> 01:40:27,570
Just be like, okay, this is what. This is what we

1568
01:40:27,570 –> 01:40:31,410
believe. I’m gonna go do the thing that Jesus told me to

1569
01:40:31,410 –> 01:40:35,210
do, which is, you know. Right. Love everyone. Love your enemy

1570
01:40:35,210 –> 01:40:37,250
as yourself. I was,

1571
01:40:39,490 –> 01:40:43,210
yeah. Love your neighbor as yourself. And well, actually love

1572
01:40:43,210 –> 01:40:46,090
the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind and

1573
01:40:46,090 –> 01:40:49,930
all your strength. And love your neighbor as yourself. Yeah.

1574
01:40:50,250 –> 01:40:53,170
Upon these two things hang all the law and all the prophets. There you go.

1575
01:40:53,170 –> 01:40:56,090
That, that’s just like, that’s. If that’s all, you know,

1576
01:40:57,130 –> 01:41:00,810
do that. Right. Okay. Now.

1577
01:41:02,730 –> 01:41:06,290
And maybe for those of us would see that, that as a failing. I don’t

1578
01:41:06,290 –> 01:41:09,170
know. But I don’t. I just. I. It’s one of the. I’ve got to remember,

1579
01:41:09,170 –> 01:41:12,130
Remember I. I slammed the wall as fools. They’ve all left the chat. They’re not

1580
01:41:12,130 –> 01:41:15,250
listening anymore. Yeah. I dismissed them. It’s fine.

1581
01:41:17,170 –> 01:41:20,850
Well, but I think, I think, I think so. I think the seduction of.

1582
01:41:25,730 –> 01:41:29,410
I think of the parable of the sower, right? In, in. In

1583
01:41:29,410 –> 01:41:33,210
Matthew, right? So Jesus is

1584
01:41:33,210 –> 01:41:36,210
a good rabbi, told his disciples

1585
01:41:36,930 –> 01:41:40,580
the parable of the sower, right? You know, see, that fell on good ground, seed

1586
01:41:40,580 –> 01:41:44,060
that fell on rocky ground, and then

1587
01:41:44,380 –> 01:41:47,580
seed that fell on ground that was full of thorns and thistles, right?

1588
01:41:48,220 –> 01:41:51,820
And the seed that fell on rocky ground

1589
01:41:51,900 –> 01:41:55,100
was unable to get roots deep enough.

1590
01:41:55,580 –> 01:41:59,340
And when, you know, wind, wane, weather, whatever came along, it

1591
01:41:59,340 –> 01:42:03,140
came up and it didn’t last, right? Thorns and

1592
01:42:03,140 –> 01:42:06,700
thistles, obviously the seed gets choked out,

1593
01:42:06,700 –> 01:42:10,460
right? Very much an agricultural metaphor. And of course, then the seed that

1594
01:42:10,460 –> 01:42:13,940
falls on good ground produces, you know, 100 fold, 60 fold, 30

1595
01:42:13,940 –> 01:42:17,460
fold to. To the glory of the

1596
01:42:17,460 –> 01:42:20,540
farmer and the harvest, okay?

1597
01:42:21,020 –> 01:42:23,820
And when the disciples heard this, when they were standing among the people,

1598
01:42:24,860 –> 01:42:27,980
they later on then came back and they were like, what are you even

1599
01:42:28,460 –> 01:42:32,180
talking about? Right? And yeah, they were fishermen, but

1600
01:42:32,180 –> 01:42:35,900
they also lived at a very agricultural way world. And so they knew

1601
01:42:36,300 –> 01:42:40,020
what they knew. I mean, they knew what seed was on ground. And of

1602
01:42:40,020 –> 01:42:43,580
course, Jesus says to them, you know, I’m going to speak to

1603
01:42:44,300 –> 01:42:47,500
the people in parables. But to you it is given the mysteries. I’m going to

1604
01:42:47,500 –> 01:42:50,459
give you the mysteries to sort of understand this. And here’s the interpretation of the

1605
01:42:50,459 –> 01:42:53,820
parable. And of course, Jesus says that

1606
01:42:54,300 –> 01:42:57,820
the seed that falls on rocky ground is the seed that

1607
01:42:59,500 –> 01:43:03,260
basically is. Is the seed that the word that falls on

1608
01:43:03,260 –> 01:43:06,500
ground that does not sustain the believer,

1609
01:43:06,740 –> 01:43:10,460
right? And so the things of this world

1610
01:43:10,460 –> 01:43:14,100
come along and, and scorch it out or take it out or whatever,

1611
01:43:14,100 –> 01:43:17,780
right? Because the roots weren’t deep. Like they didn’t go into

1612
01:43:17,940 –> 01:43:21,740
the word or they didn’t go into, to the conversation right now.

1613
01:43:21,740 –> 01:43:25,580
They didn’t go into the theology whatever. Then you know, there’s

1614
01:43:25,580 –> 01:43:29,350
the seed that falls on thistles and that’s the seed that gets

1615
01:43:29,350 –> 01:43:33,110
choked out by the carers of the world. Right? You know, your,

1616
01:43:33,110 –> 01:43:36,510
your bills and the kids dentist appointment and

1617
01:43:37,630 –> 01:43:41,230
cruelty the world. Cruelty. Exactly. Yeah.

1618
01:43:41,230 –> 01:43:44,910
And then you have the seed that falls on good ground,

1619
01:43:44,990 –> 01:43:48,390
right? And the good ground, of course is ground that gets watered, it gets

1620
01:43:48,390 –> 01:43:52,190
cultivated and then it produces. And in some folks it produces a lot.

1621
01:43:52,430 –> 01:43:54,290
A lot of people get, get influenced

1622
01:43:56,050 –> 01:43:59,730
some influences a little and then others influences a huge

1623
01:43:59,730 –> 01:44:03,010
number. Okay. Now when most

1624
01:44:04,050 –> 01:44:07,650
American Christians hear that, they think about the Word

1625
01:44:07,650 –> 01:44:11,410
being something that they have to go out and harvest and spread around, right?

1626
01:44:11,570 –> 01:44:14,850
And that the unbelievers will be the ground that the Word falls on.

1627
01:44:16,450 –> 01:44:19,650
And while I do hold to that as one potential interpretation,

1628
01:44:20,860 –> 01:44:24,220
I also hold to an idea. And this is something. This really the reason why

1629
01:44:24,220 –> 01:44:27,340
I brought this up is it relates directly to what you were talking about, about

1630
01:44:27,340 –> 01:44:30,700
holding on to just like one thing without holding on to the triune God.

1631
01:44:31,980 –> 01:44:35,420
We don’t even think about ourselves as ground as believers

1632
01:44:35,739 –> 01:44:39,580
and what we can hold on to. And

1633
01:44:39,580 –> 01:44:43,420
so we as ground as believers, are we being choked out by

1634
01:44:43,420 –> 01:44:46,220
the cares of this world? Are we we

1635
01:44:47,580 –> 01:44:51,340
being blasted away by nonsense? And our roots didn’t

1636
01:44:51,340 –> 01:44:53,740
go that deep because like we spent

1637
01:44:55,180 –> 01:44:59,020
however many years avoiding actually reading the Bible. And then finally

1638
01:44:59,020 –> 01:45:02,780
towards the middle or the end of our lives, we finally started reading it, but

1639
01:45:02,780 –> 01:45:05,460
it never really landed for us or it didn’t really land as deep. And so

1640
01:45:05,460 –> 01:45:07,620
we’re going to struggle and we’re going to try to get those roots deep, but

1641
01:45:07,620 –> 01:45:10,820
they’re only going to eventually, you know, it’s going to hit a bedrock and we

1642
01:45:10,820 –> 01:45:14,500
can sense when that’s going to, when that’s going to happen. And then of course

1643
01:45:14,500 –> 01:45:17,860
there are those of us who are consumed with the Word.

1644
01:45:19,140 –> 01:45:22,660
And I would put myself humbly

1645
01:45:22,740 –> 01:45:26,340
in that category. I mean I’ve been through the Bible,

1646
01:45:26,500 –> 01:45:28,739
I did the Bible app, I do the Bible app. So I go through the

1647
01:45:28,739 –> 01:45:32,100
Bible in a year basically once every couple of years I go through the Bible

1648
01:45:32,100 –> 01:45:34,900
in a year. And I’ve been through the Bible probably 10 or 12 times already.

1649
01:45:35,540 –> 01:45:39,010
And now I’m at the point where, okay, I got to actually like start to

1650
01:45:39,010 –> 01:45:42,770
write, sorry to write down, not scriptures, not specific

1651
01:45:42,770 –> 01:45:46,370
one off things, but like I have to look at the contextual Bible and relate

1652
01:45:46,370 –> 01:45:49,930
the context of things here to the context of things there.

1653
01:45:49,930 –> 01:45:53,570
Because, you know, Paul is talking in a particular way. But Paul was

1654
01:45:53,570 –> 01:45:57,330
trained by Gamaliel, which means he knew the Torah and the Old Testament. So when

1655
01:45:57,330 –> 01:46:00,730
he talks to the Corinthians, he’s not talking to the Corinthians because

1656
01:46:00,730 –> 01:46:04,530
they’re Corinthians. And then in Corinth, he’s talking to them because he comes

1657
01:46:04,530 –> 01:46:08,150
out of an entire Jewish tradition. That’s the Hebrew roots idea. He comes out of

1658
01:46:08,150 –> 01:46:11,670
an entire Jewish tradition. He’s trying to make a new thing. But what influences that

1659
01:46:11,670 –> 01:46:15,070
tradition? Because there’s a method of argumentation that he’s employing. So I got to go

1660
01:46:15,070 –> 01:46:17,870
back, and I got to write out, like, all the references in Esther that he

1661
01:46:17,870 –> 01:46:21,310
uses, and then I got to go right out Esther, Right. So, like, I’m going

1662
01:46:21,310 –> 01:46:24,910
down this path, right. Will that yield 30

1663
01:46:24,910 –> 01:46:28,750
fold or 60 fold or 100 fold? Well, I don’t know. Like, I only

1664
01:46:28,750 –> 01:46:32,270
do, really three really good things in my life. I write good. I talk good.

1665
01:46:32,640 –> 01:46:35,760
I kind of show up on camera good. I don’t really do anything else really

1666
01:46:35,760 –> 01:46:39,520
well. Everything else, I. I’m fair to middling at or I suck.

1667
01:46:40,560 –> 01:46:40,960
So.

1668
01:46:44,240 –> 01:46:46,640
Like, what did the Lord give me? Well,

1669
01:46:48,399 –> 01:46:52,200
those are the. Those are the. Those are the three things. So, okay.

1670
01:46:52,200 –> 01:46:55,200
Oh, and I kind of sort of think, good. Maybe. Kind of,

1671
01:46:56,080 –> 01:46:59,930
sort of, maybe. So what is the.

1672
01:47:00,250 –> 01:47:04,090
So if I’m the ground and the seed sower,

1673
01:47:04,250 –> 01:47:07,450
and I’m the product of what falls on the ground,

1674
01:47:08,810 –> 01:47:11,610
then I can’t really worry too much about the unbelievers.

1675
01:47:14,010 –> 01:47:17,690
I do worry about the believers that don’t know about the triune

1676
01:47:17,690 –> 01:47:20,210
God. But to your point, and this, I guess, is a long way of supporting

1677
01:47:20,210 –> 01:47:24,060
your point. To your point, I don’t know what ground they’re on.

1678
01:47:24,290 –> 01:47:27,690
I have no idea. And I think about this a lot as a person who

1679
01:47:27,690 –> 01:47:31,490
is, weirdly enough, my wife and I have been tagged as mature Christians,

1680
01:47:32,130 –> 01:47:35,770
but we don’t feel like we’re immature, like, at all. Like,

1681
01:47:35,770 –> 01:47:38,450
there’s no. No. Are you kidding me? There’s so much more to learn.

1682
01:47:40,210 –> 01:47:43,890
Is the bottom is just the bot. The bis just keeps going down.

1683
01:47:44,290 –> 01:47:47,650
There’s no bottom here. Turtles all the way down.

1684
01:47:48,050 –> 01:47:51,050
Turtles all the way down. That’s right. And we. I can’t even see the bottom

1685
01:47:51,050 –> 01:47:51,650
of the turtles.

1686
01:47:55,610 –> 01:47:59,410
Yep. So I don’t know if you need a triune

1687
01:47:59,410 –> 01:48:03,210
God. I would say my first instinct in answering that question or when

1688
01:48:03,210 –> 01:48:07,010
I think about it, when, like, Sam Harris poses that question or Richard Dawkins gets

1689
01:48:07,010 –> 01:48:10,570
frustrated and gets argued Into a Corner by Jordan

1690
01:48:10,570 –> 01:48:14,210
Peterson. The first, first thing, you

1691
01:48:14,210 –> 01:48:17,970
know, the first thing I think is, yeah, you do need to believe in

1692
01:48:17,970 –> 01:48:20,770
a try you got. But that might be for those guys.

1693
01:48:21,810 –> 01:48:25,650
Right. You need to believe in a tri. God. Big

1694
01:48:25,650 –> 01:48:29,210
brains. Your big brains need to wrap around that mystery and figure

1695
01:48:29,210 –> 01:48:32,850
that out and come to that humbly but to your point.

1696
01:48:32,850 –> 01:48:36,690
Maybe the medieval peasant, the simple folk. The simple folk,

1697
01:48:36,770 –> 01:48:40,410
maybe. Maybe the simple folk don’t need it. Well,

1698
01:48:40,410 –> 01:48:44,070
and kind of you were talking about had gone through the.

1699
01:48:44,220 –> 01:48:47,380
The Bible so many times. So many times. And my dad is. And it’s just

1700
01:48:47,380 –> 01:48:50,860
now. It’s just now landing. It’s just now landing right for me.

1701
01:48:51,260 –> 01:48:55,060
I, I’m not, I’m not. Well, you know, I

1702
01:48:55,060 –> 01:48:58,700
grew up my dad, you know, because that was my dad always

1703
01:48:58,700 –> 01:49:02,100
reading the Bible. I tried to follow that

1704
01:49:02,100 –> 01:49:05,780
example. Yeah. And got very quickly that I did

1705
01:49:05,780 –> 01:49:09,580
not understand it at all. That just something was

1706
01:49:09,750 –> 01:49:13,270
missing and I would fall asleep trying to read it. And so

1707
01:49:13,590 –> 01:49:17,350
definitely as a young person I just gave up and

1708
01:49:17,350 –> 01:49:21,070
I, I definitely would put myself closer to the medieval

1709
01:49:21,070 –> 01:49:24,710
peasant that just needs a pastor. Like I’m doing my best to

1710
01:49:24,710 –> 01:49:28,390
ask good questions and be discerning, but I’m the kind of person

1711
01:49:28,390 –> 01:49:32,110
that needs someone to tell me what it means kind of what you’re

1712
01:49:32,110 –> 01:49:35,800
talking about. Like, what’s the tradition that this was written in?

1713
01:49:35,800 –> 01:49:39,360
What’s the context? Like? Like, it blew my mind when I,

1714
01:49:39,600 –> 01:49:42,960
when the, when I first learned about like the rabbitic

1715
01:49:43,280 –> 01:49:46,480
interpretation of Genesis. Oh yeah. And I was like,

1716
01:49:46,720 –> 01:49:49,520
that’s amazing. That makes so much more sense.

1717
01:49:51,120 –> 01:49:54,920
But me going and reading Genesis over and over and

1718
01:49:54,920 –> 01:49:58,720
over and over without any of that context.

1719
01:50:00,560 –> 01:50:04,200
I maybe, and maybe this is wrong, but Rudolph

1720
01:50:04,200 –> 01:50:08,000
is useless. Like there’s no. That didn’t. I didn’t see

1721
01:50:08,000 –> 01:50:10,720
any point in that. It felt like a waste of time and felt like it

1722
01:50:10,720 –> 01:50:13,400
was just going to build a lot of frustration in me. And

1723
01:50:14,680 –> 01:50:18,520
being the people of faith that we are, God uses that.

1724
01:50:19,000 –> 01:50:21,960
Yeah, well. And that was the critique. That was. That was the critique that the

1725
01:50:21,960 –> 01:50:25,280
Catholics had against Luther during the beginning of the process of

1726
01:50:25,280 –> 01:50:28,800
Reformation, which of course accompanied the printing press. They were like, well, okay, if you

1727
01:50:28,800 –> 01:50:32,520
give everybody, everybody. This was basically the Catholic Church’s objection. If

1728
01:50:32,520 –> 01:50:36,080
you give everybody access to the book, that’s fine. I mean

1729
01:50:36,400 –> 01:50:39,880
the Catholic Church was even. This is what people don’t know about the history of

1730
01:50:39,880 –> 01:50:42,880
all that. Even during the time of Luther they were starting to loosen up on

1731
01:50:43,440 –> 01:50:46,960
not only printing more books, but also allowing more

1732
01:50:47,200 –> 01:50:50,880
the lay people to read, but even medieval

1733
01:50:50,880 –> 01:50:53,400
peasants couldn’t read. So there was a whole other kind of problem they had to

1734
01:50:53,400 –> 01:50:57,230
solve. Right, right. So. But literacy

1735
01:50:57,230 –> 01:51:00,230
was spreading and the Catholic Church recognized that it was coming.

1736
01:51:01,110 –> 01:51:04,870
The, and it wasn’t really to Luther. It was mostly to Calvin, Calvin

1737
01:51:04,870 –> 01:51:08,190
and Zwingli, those two guys. But their

1738
01:51:08,190 –> 01:51:11,870
objection was, okay, you give the Bible to everybody. Let’s take

1739
01:51:11,870 –> 01:51:15,510
it at face value. Fine, give the Bible to everybody. There’s no mediator,

1740
01:51:15,670 –> 01:51:18,630
there’s no pastor, no priest. Everybody can access it,

1741
01:51:20,070 –> 01:51:22,390
which means everyone will come up with their own interpretation.

1742
01:51:24,060 –> 01:51:27,660
And so we will have mass chaos. And that’s what the Catholic Church objected to

1743
01:51:27,660 –> 01:51:30,220
in the Protestant Reformation. That was actually at the core of it. It really wasn’t

1744
01:51:30,220 –> 01:51:33,860
about the, the indulgences that was even going out. It

1745
01:51:33,860 –> 01:51:37,660
wasn’t about the, the, the Pope. It wasn’t about any of that. It was about,

1746
01:51:38,700 –> 01:51:42,540
oh my God, the utter, the utter theological confusion that we will

1747
01:51:42,540 –> 01:51:46,100
then engage in. And the Catholic Church had no system for how to handle

1748
01:51:46,100 –> 01:51:49,830
theological confusion. I guess one of the reasons that I want to bring that up

1749
01:51:49,830 –> 01:51:53,630
is if you’re listening and you’re, you hear

1750
01:51:53,790 –> 01:51:57,070
Hasan and you’re like, oh, that’s the ideal. Like, I want to read the, you

1751
01:51:57,070 –> 01:52:00,910
know, the Bible in a year, every year for 12 years, and then start

1752
01:52:00,910 –> 01:52:04,750
to, you know, do all the, the, the research yourself. But if that’s

1753
01:52:04,750 –> 01:52:08,430
not where you’re at and, or God has put you somewhere else, or

1754
01:52:08,430 –> 01:52:11,830
your strengths lie somewhere else and you just need somebody to tell you what it

1755
01:52:11,830 –> 01:52:14,030
means, that’s where I’m at

1756
01:52:15,900 –> 01:52:19,340
and it’s okay, it’s fine. That’s still the spectrum.

1757
01:52:19,980 –> 01:52:23,700
Yep. And God can use it all. And again, if

1758
01:52:23,700 –> 01:52:27,300
you’re, you’re, I don’t know, I don’t know how to put, give this a secular

1759
01:52:27,300 –> 01:52:30,459
twist. But. Well, and let me be very clear,

1760
01:52:30,860 –> 01:52:34,340
if you need to be number one, I don’t think you should be reading the

1761
01:52:34,340 –> 01:52:38,140
Bible by yourself in a room trying to bang through that. You

1762
01:52:38,140 –> 01:52:41,980
know, I think, and particularly now, again, with technology, I have knocked technology

1763
01:52:41,980 –> 01:52:45,450
on this podcast, but with technology you can.

1764
01:52:45,610 –> 01:52:49,450
Absolutely. The number of resources is unbe friggin leavable.

1765
01:52:49,450 –> 01:52:53,250
Even between like the time I was a kid to now, it’s unbelievable, the

1766
01:52:53,250 –> 01:52:56,690
explosion, the number of videos you can watch, the number of

1767
01:52:56,690 –> 01:53:00,410
resources you can access, the number of people who are explaining the

1768
01:53:00,410 –> 01:53:03,930
Bible on YouTube. Now, are they all to the Catholic

1769
01:53:03,930 –> 01:53:07,770
Church’s Objection. Careful. Right. Do they all have solid

1770
01:53:07,770 –> 01:53:11,220
theology or even information

1771
01:53:11,780 –> 01:53:15,620
or accurate information? Check the resources Check the references. Good

1772
01:53:15,620 –> 01:53:19,300
God. You don’t even believe. Don’t even believe the Wikipedia entries that you may read

1773
01:53:19,540 –> 01:53:23,380
to. To talk to on just like the Trinity. Don’t even believe those.

1774
01:53:23,380 –> 01:53:26,340
Look at this. Look at the resources and then go, anyway, whatever.

1775
01:53:27,140 –> 01:53:30,620
If you don’t want to do the research, there’s plenty of resources out here. The

1776
01:53:30,620 –> 01:53:34,340
problem is not information. No. The problem is community.

1777
01:53:35,150 –> 01:53:38,870
Yes. Because at the end of the day, yes.

1778
01:53:38,870 –> 01:53:42,070
Kristen may want someone to explain it to her and give her an

1779
01:53:42,070 –> 01:53:45,590
interpretation. And here’s the other thing I

1780
01:53:45,590 –> 01:53:49,150
suspect you probably want, even though you didn’t say it, I suspect you want

1781
01:53:49,150 –> 01:53:52,830
somebody where. Wherein you have enough of a relationship with them

1782
01:53:53,070 –> 01:53:56,910
so when they give you the interpretation, you could have a conversation with them.

1783
01:53:56,990 –> 01:54:00,030
Yeah, yeah. And test that with them.

1784
01:54:00,760 –> 01:54:04,600
Right. Versus the idea that

1785
01:54:04,600 –> 01:54:08,280
sometimes, sometimes Catholics have about Protestants

1786
01:54:08,520 –> 01:54:11,960
or about various Protestant denominations, that we all just sit in a room

1787
01:54:12,440 –> 01:54:16,160
reading our Bibles and then we all just sort of like, float

1788
01:54:16,160 –> 01:54:19,800
off like atoms, figuring it out for ourselves. No, no, no,

1789
01:54:19,880 –> 01:54:23,440
no, no. We’re in community and we’re yelling at each other and we’re, like, fighting.

1790
01:54:23,440 –> 01:54:27,280
And we’re. Intramural fights. We’re having intramural fights and

1791
01:54:27,280 –> 01:54:30,940
denominations. The Methodists would like to enter the chat

1792
01:54:30,940 –> 01:54:34,740
recently. I mean, they’re the most recent one. You know, like,

1793
01:54:34,740 –> 01:54:38,460
we’re having. We’re having those intramural battles because we’re

1794
01:54:38,460 –> 01:54:41,940
in community with each other and in a community.

1795
01:54:42,900 –> 01:54:45,660
And this is something for those of you who may be a little bit younger

1796
01:54:45,660 –> 01:54:48,740
than me, who are listening to this show, if you’ve made it this far and

1797
01:54:48,740 –> 01:54:52,420
if you have, congratulations, you have to be in community

1798
01:54:52,420 –> 01:54:56,180
with other people to understand, I believe, to understand Christian

1799
01:54:56,180 –> 01:54:59,740
things. Because Christ was in community with his disciples

1800
01:55:00,140 –> 01:55:03,420
and he came out of it. Yes. And he stayed in that community.

1801
01:55:03,900 –> 01:55:07,700
And he stayed in that community. That’s correct. So that is one

1802
01:55:07,700 –> 01:55:11,500
of my big issues and one of the reasons I was like, all right,

1803
01:55:11,900 –> 01:55:15,180
yeah, this doesn’t make sense,

1804
01:55:15,500 –> 01:55:19,060
is the constant splitting, splitting,

1805
01:55:19,060 –> 01:55:22,720
splitting. Stay in community. If you disagree,

1806
01:55:22,880 –> 01:55:26,360
stay sharp. Iron sharpens iron. Like, have good, good

1807
01:55:26,360 –> 01:55:29,840
faith discussions and.

1808
01:55:29,840 –> 01:55:33,360
And above all else, stay in love.

1809
01:55:33,840 –> 01:55:37,640
Right. Well, having a disagreement

1810
01:55:37,640 –> 01:55:38,560
with somebody.

1811
01:55:43,440 –> 01:55:47,170
Is not a salvation issue. No. Disagreeing is

1812
01:55:47,170 –> 01:55:50,930
not sin. Right. Now,

1813
01:55:50,930 –> 01:55:54,090
the motives underneath, that might be sinful,

1814
01:55:54,650 –> 01:55:58,010
the consequences in how you react or respond,

1815
01:55:58,410 –> 01:56:01,850
that might be sinful, but

1816
01:56:02,170 –> 01:56:05,650
the disagreement in and of itself, the

1817
01:56:05,650 –> 01:56:09,130
confrontation in and of itself is not a

1818
01:56:09,130 –> 01:56:12,860
sinful act. And I

1819
01:56:12,860 –> 01:56:16,100
think there’s, along with all the rest of the moral and theological confusion

1820
01:56:16,500 –> 01:56:20,180
We’ve got even, even an even larger problem which feeds

1821
01:56:20,180 –> 01:56:24,020
downstream from theology into societal

1822
01:56:24,020 –> 01:56:27,620
confusion about how to handle differences and,

1823
01:56:27,620 –> 01:56:30,620
and all that. And so it’s just easier to go off and be individualized and

1824
01:56:30,620 –> 01:56:34,260
atomized. But the devil can pick you off. Kristen said the

1825
01:56:34,260 –> 01:56:37,670
enemy. I’m gonna say the devil. The devil can pick you off individually. Devil can

1826
01:56:37,670 –> 01:56:40,190
pick you off individually. I’m going to name the oppressor. I’m going to name the

1827
01:56:40,190 –> 01:56:43,790
enemy. Absolutely. I’m going to go old school Baptist

1828
01:56:43,870 –> 01:56:47,590
here in a minute. Old school Baptist preacher,

1829
01:56:47,590 –> 01:56:50,750
Southern Baptist preacher preaching a hot gospel.

1830
01:56:51,950 –> 01:56:55,350
And so you need to be in community. I would recommend being in community. So

1831
01:56:55,350 –> 01:56:58,910
yes, read your Bible and read your Bible in community with

1832
01:56:58,910 –> 01:57:02,590
others and get in groups. As far as the role of

1833
01:57:02,590 –> 01:57:04,940
tradition or rights or creeds,

1834
01:57:06,540 –> 01:57:09,340
that is a whole, I had a whole conversation with my wife about this this

1835
01:57:09,340 –> 01:57:12,260
weekend. That’s a whole other intramural thing. I’m going to leave that aside. But just

1836
01:57:12,260 –> 01:57:16,100
know that whole other animal. Whole other animal and know that

1837
01:57:16,100 –> 01:57:19,100
not blood and know that creeds exist.

1838
01:57:20,220 –> 01:57:24,020
I think fundamentally something that Christian said actually clicked this together in my head.

1839
01:57:24,020 –> 01:57:27,860
Just, literally just now I’m thinking on the fly with this, but creeds

1840
01:57:27,860 –> 01:57:29,910
exist so that people

1841
01:57:32,870 –> 01:57:36,670
can have an anchor. If the book is too complicated, that’s one

1842
01:57:36,670 –> 01:57:40,430
of the reasons why creeds exist. And if you’re in

1843
01:57:40,430 –> 01:57:44,150
a non denominational church, you’re probably going to

1844
01:57:44,150 –> 01:57:47,830
struggle with that because non denomination churches tend to be allergic to creeds.

1845
01:57:48,870 –> 01:57:52,710
However, more Reformed churches, whether they’re Reformed, Baptist, Reformed,

1846
01:57:52,710 –> 01:57:55,200
Presbyterian, Reformed, Methodist

1847
01:57:56,720 –> 01:58:00,240
and Catholic churches, tend to focus

1848
01:58:00,240 –> 01:58:02,480
on and tend to be anchored by

1849
01:58:03,600 –> 01:58:07,080
creeds. And that could be an incredible struggle for people who are

1850
01:58:07,080 –> 01:58:10,160
individualistic and don’t want to be anchored to anything other than

1851
01:58:12,800 –> 01:58:15,400
and even don’t even really want to be anchored to the book. But other than

1852
01:58:15,400 –> 01:58:19,000
the book, other than. You know what’s so interesting? That you know,

1853
01:58:19,000 –> 01:58:22,570
there’s, there’s. I don’t know if I could find it fast enough because I know

1854
01:58:22,570 –> 01:58:26,290
we need to wrap up. It’s right here. It’s because it’s, it’s like the very

1855
01:58:26,290 –> 01:58:29,890
end of the book. Yeah. Is. Is if there’s a

1856
01:58:29,890 –> 01:58:33,690
concern of being worried about anchored to creeds because

1857
01:58:34,010 –> 01:58:37,770
due to individualism. Is, there’s. I. And this is. I’ve known

1858
01:58:37,770 –> 01:58:41,490
this quote. I don’t remember when I, I’ve known this quote for so

1859
01:58:41,490 –> 01:58:45,290
long, I don’t remember when I first heard it. But it’s how monotonously

1860
01:58:45,620 –> 01:58:49,300
like all the great tyrants and conquerors have been, how gloriously different

1861
01:58:49,460 –> 01:58:53,140
are the saints? So even anchoring yourself

1862
01:58:53,300 –> 01:58:57,100
into a creed and into Christianity, it doesn’t

1863
01:58:57,100 –> 01:59:00,900
make you a cookie cutter. It almost makes

1864
01:59:00,900 –> 01:59:04,500
you more brilliant. Not almost. It makes you more brilliant, the

1865
01:59:04,500 –> 01:59:07,780
individual, than anything else.

1866
01:59:10,260 –> 01:59:14,100
I think just full stop. I think that’s a good place

1867
01:59:14,100 –> 01:59:17,820
for us to stop. I want to thank Kristen Horn

1868
01:59:17,820 –> 01:59:21,620
for coming on the show today. This was radically different than

1869
01:59:21,620 –> 01:59:24,060
any of the other conversations that we have had with her, but it was great.

1870
01:59:26,220 –> 01:59:29,740
And. And so I would like to wish you all a happy holiday

1871
01:59:30,220 –> 01:59:34,060
and a very merry Christmas and a happy

1872
01:59:34,060 –> 01:59:37,860
New Year from all of us here at the Leadership Lessons from

1873
01:59:37,860 –> 01:59:40,790
the Great Books podcast. So with that, well,

1874
01:59:42,070 –> 01:59:42,790
we’re out.