Mash Up Episode ft. 12 Rules For Leaders Deep Dive – Leadership Models from Sun-Tzu to Albert Murray w/David Baumrucker & Jesan Sorrells

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hello, my name is Jesan Sorrells and

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this is the Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast,

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episode number 185.

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Yes, we are five episodes from our big 200th

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episode Shindig and I still haven’t reached out to

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the people that I need to bring on for that. So I probably, probably behind

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the little bit behind the eight ball there on that. I want to get involved

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with that. Anyway, today we are going

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to open up with a very brief reading

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from a book by. Well, a book by me. 12

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rules for leaders the foundation of Intentional Leadership.

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This that I’m about to read is going to lay the foundation for what we’re

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going to talk with our guests today about around

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leadership models. And I quote

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from myself to all of you,

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this book lays out not a formula but a

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series of 12 practices, lessons or principles if you will.

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I have found leaders always need to examine, mold, investigate,

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dissect and question. How did I develop these principles?

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Well, I have trained close to 15,000 people in a variety of management level

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positions, from entry level to the CEO level across multiple organizations and

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industries over the last 10 years. I’ve taught

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leadership theories and philosophies and pushed hundreds of students over the past 20

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years to question them at small community colleges and large public

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institutions. I have read, not exhaustively. I am

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a practitioner, after all, many of the academic writings that undergird leadership

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theories and approaches. And I try to read and glean

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everything about leadership from the Bible and other ancient writings all the way to Jocko

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Willink and whatever Malcolm Gladwell happens to be writing

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right now. I also serve as the day to day CEO of a digital and

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software platform publishing company, HSCT Publishing, now in our third

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pivot coming out of COVID with partners, employees, contractors, interns,

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clients, fans, investors and others who look to me to make leadership decisions

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in the practical every day. I also have a wife of

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eight years as of this publication date and four children ranging in age from 4

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to 24. I have led volunteer groups, story groups, online groups,

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and church groups. I’ve even played and coached the great game of rugby with

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teams that were not always winning.

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All those areas and arenas of life, both public and private,

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serve as incubators for understanding, examining, distilling and questioning

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the principles of leadership our mental infrastructure

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tacitly assumes will still produce optimal outcomes

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even as that same infrastructure rusts away unquestioned

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in leaders minds and all leaders have access to

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the exact same incubators I have had across time and

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space. This book should not exist as an artifact

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Something frozen in time for leaders. Instead, we encourage you, dear

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reader, to think of this book as a volume. Read slowly, absorb carefully, think about

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deeply, question robustly against your experience, and then

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have the courage to implement from leadership.

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Effective leadership, most importantly, is the most critical element our world is

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missing, pandemic or not. And the more leaders

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are exposed as being ill prepared, blind, ignorant, or

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just innocently blissful, the more the dragon of chaos,

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destruction and myopia must consume and the

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increased amount of bad, toxic, mediocre, and even worse

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leadership we will have to suffer through in the face

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of the next crisis. Close quote.

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And by the way, put this on the back end of that sentence because

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my editor told me to drop it. There will always be

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another crisis.

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And so with those words, we begin, we open

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our mashup episode today. We’re taking a little bit of a different approach

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to these episodes this season. This is where we don’t necessarily

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focus on a specific book. Instead, we talk to a guest and,

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you know, I expose some of my inner thoughts to you, although I do that

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on every episode here of this show. And we try to

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get to the core of some idea. And here’s the

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idea that we’re going to kind of try to get to the core of today.

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All leadership begins with a vision.

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By articulating a vision, a leader, intentionally or not, falls into a specific

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model of leadership that encompasses their actions. If a vision is

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constrained, the model of leadership will be constructed that supports such a

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vision. If a vision is unconstrained, a model of leadership will be

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constructed and of course, supports that vision. So what of

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models? Well, models in theory

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can create a container. They provide direction and serve to ensure

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that accountability for accomplishing goals as well as hitting benchmarks becomes

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a practical consideration. Models also, for lack of a better

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term, sell models, sell books, they

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sell courses, and they sell workbooks. And they serve as the

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headwaters for a cascade of words that produce different outcomes in different hands

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under different leaders. Models are

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not something we deal in on this show. Hell, models

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aren’t even something that I dealt in in my book that I just read from.

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We deal to translate from the cowboys in the original Magnificent Seven.

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And practicalities, which are, quite frankly, the lead

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of leadership models are not practical

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because much like theory, they fall apart

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usually under first contact with human and lived

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reality. Reality I’ve been taking. I’ve

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been saying this a lot lately, actually. Reality, along with

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taxes, death and gravity,

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is undefeated. But

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we have arrived at the moment in the mashup episodes for this year

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where it Is time for us to take time out of our usual path of

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pursuit of solutions, trade offs and how do we live and lead in a

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tragic universe to explore some ideas and dare I say, even some models

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that could potentially contain either an unconstrained or maybe a constrained vision

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and to find out where exactly all that leads.

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Leaders, without a model to contain your vision, you may have trouble selling

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your vision. That’s just the honest truth.

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Particularly in marketing and advertising,

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sticky times such as these

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we live in now. And so I’d like to welcome

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to our show today a guest from.

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Oh gosh, from way back in our first season where he talked

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with us about crime and punishment. We got to go back and revisit

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that. I was just reminded of that the other day. And of course

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that great handlebar mustache German

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that sits or lurks in the subterranean bottom of Western

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civilization. Frederick Nietzsche,

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my good friend and, and fellow rugby

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compatriot, David Baumrucker. How you doing, Dave? Good to,

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good to meet you. Good to have you back on the show. It’s been a

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little bit. I’m glad to be here. I’m excited for this

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episode. So

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on the show we advocate for depth over performance and we were just talking about

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this before we even hit record. Right. Which means

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I automatically have skepticism for models of leadership.

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I don’t care whether it’s a charismatic model or servant leadership model,

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a practical model, a Jack Welch. We’re going to cut everything possible

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model. Even now we have AI like this

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first section is labeled, you know, on my script, the literary life of Anthropic. And

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I didn’t, I didn’t label it that way by accident. Right. We’re, we’re,

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we’re in the beginning of an adopt a 30 year adoption life cycle, I believe

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on, on artificial intelligence and what the LLMs can actually do. And

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by the way kids, it is 30 years on literally every new technology

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and it’ll be 30 years on this one to get to full adoption.

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Um, and I think all of that stuff is up for debate,

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but heterodox thinking tends to lead to heterodox leadership practices.

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And we, we want to embody

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on this show, we want to talk about, on this show how do we

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take leadership practices out of the realm of the clouds and bring them down to

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the dirt where like people actually practically live. Like I said in the opening there,

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and we do firmly believe, and actually I took this from

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a previous episode that I did with the co host Tom Libby. I

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can’t remember what book we were talking about. But it is a good point. I

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said that modern institutional crises stem

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from asking the wrong things of the right structures. Right.

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So business institutions are typically being asked to carry the weight of family,

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friendships, communities, neighborhoods. And

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you’ll have a lot of familiarity with this mental health crises,

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emotional health crises and spiritual health crises. Right. And

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these institutions, these organizations, these businesses

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were not intended to carry such weight.

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And I believe that that is part of the reason why our institutions are struggling.

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Everything from the small business all the way up to the giant corporate

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structure. Right. They’re carrying weights they weren’t meant to carry, basically.

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And so I guess our first question is in thinking about

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what you know about this show and thinking about what we do here, thinking about

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your own thoughts. How do leaders, Dave, walk the tension

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inherent, right, between adapting or adopting models

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and living and leading in this practical reality that we’re in now? And by the

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way, I’d love for you to break up Terrence McKenna. Go ahead and do that

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too. So I’m going to open the door to that. Well, let’s,

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yeah, let’s circle Back to Terence McKenna. I think that

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it’s a great question. I think the problem we have is that leaders are looking

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at these models as a, is they’re looking at it as a map and not

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a compass. And the problem is that by looking at these models as a map,

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in this analogy, if the rain comes and washes out the bridge

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and you’re following the map, the map has you driving into the water, right?

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Whereas if we look at these models of the compass, it gives you the ability

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to navigate and traverse all of the different

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things that you’re going to encounter. You don’t need to have a set

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line, but rather you have an ability to kind of move in the general direction

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and adapt on the fly. And why that’s

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so important is because we need to shift out of models as these

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commandments. We must follow this model and we have to look at them more

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as a container because this container is

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supposed to house where all of this dynamic

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interaction is supposed to be going on. This is because leaders are the ones that

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bridge the gap, the theory, practice gap. We, the leaders are the

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ones that take the concept ideas,

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the, the abstractions and they say let’s put this into real world hands on

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exercises so we understand how to do that. If

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we’re stuck in this role where the, the, the model is

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a rigid struck like a rigid commandment, how

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are you going to adapt to things? How are you going to practice

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and be even mildly versed in

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stepping left or stepping right if some kind of new challenge

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emerges. And that’s, I think, where we’re finding a lot of the issues with leadership

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today, because we’re not prioritizing the experiential learning element

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of leadership. And we’re not. And we’re not. I think we’re falling victim

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to the idea that we’re looking for this one piece, this one solution that

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is this kind of this Rosetta stone that allows us to understand

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every single thing within one confine. And that’s never

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how this has ever worked. Since the dawning of time, there’s always been

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a layering or a weaving of multiple frameworks that we’ve had

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to rely on because each framework itself specializes in

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one thing. You know, whether it be in terms of ethics, whether it’s in terms

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of strategy, whether it’s terms of human relations. There’s all of these things we need

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to pull together. And this goes back to the heart of this show is like,

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well, what do we need to do? It’s like we need to return back

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to those classical pieces of wisdom that we’ve always seen.

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We have to step away from the, you know, the three hour business model

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that’s now sweeping the trends on LinkedIn and all these other things. And we have

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to just look at these things for what they are. And that is going

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just moving targets. And you said they’re trying to sell something and

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they’re trying to sell convenience, they’re trying to sell flash, they’re

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trying to sell this new thing, right? Look at me, I’m

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ahead of the curve. And so I, I’ll pause and let you.

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But then we’ll circle back to, to Terence. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we’ll circle back

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to Terence. Let me ask a follow up question. Isn’t this just the

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disease of the postmodern mind, though? Like, isn’t this the logical

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cul de sac where we wind up with, where we wind up at

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when we actually practically walk out

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Foucault and Lacan and Derrida?

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Isn’t it the logical end of where

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my buddy Nietzsche down there in the basement said we were going to wind up

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at just applied to corporations rather than, you know,

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families, communities, churches, government. You know,

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aren’t, aren’t corporates, corporations and businesses of all

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sizes? Aren’t they just, aren’t they just eroding because of

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this postmodern disease? I think absolutely. Because

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the idea, the foundations of postmodernism is that, you

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know, yesterday doesn’t matter. We are, we are creating, we are creating

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reality in live time. And if, if that

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is, if that was true, then why are we

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seeing the, like this rhyme of history

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repeat itself? Why are we seeing race issues? Why are we

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seeing financial issues? Why are we seeing systemic issues?

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Right, the it again, it’s this then this is that integration into

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Terence McKenna about this idea that he had in 1998

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that eventually because of all of these shifts, things are going to

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become so weird that we’re going to have to, we are going to be forced

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to talk about how weird things are becoming. With, you know, if you turn

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on the news of politics, it’s weird. If you turn on the news with,

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with finance, it’s weird. If you look at social institutions,

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schools, the medical industry, it’s gotten so weird.

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It’s, it’s this prophetic message that he was talking about that

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we have, we’re reaching the end. This is the, this is this

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kind of, this state of entropy

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we’ve entered into. Because I think, and I to his. The point he’s making

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is it’s, we’re going to be thrust into some new paradigm.

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What that paradigm is, is foundationally up to us.

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And I think that we are in this primordial unknown where

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all of this weirdness is happening. And I think that at the heart of this,

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this program, in the heart of everything, other people that talk about this is that

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we’ve gone back to this again.

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These building block stage, everything’s being deconstructed and we’re looking at how

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the systems that have been in place for so long, we’re looking at them

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with new eyes and we’re realizing that there is this

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almost like this rot, this cancer. And the cancer isn’t essentially the

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ideas that were pre existing. The rot is the fact that we

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fail to honor them. And that’s where we find

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ourselves. So this month,

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in, in previous episodes before this one, we’ve read G.K.

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chesterton’s the Man From Thursday, the Man who Was Thursday, which is a great,

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great book. G.K. chesterton, great Catholic

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theologian, wrote in opposition to both Nietzsche and

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Dostoyevsky, looked at them and said,

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no, maybe not. Because he saw the in, in,

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in England and in North America, he saw the, he observed the growth of

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those ideas being taken on by people who eventually

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would become anarchists. And a few years

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after Chesterton sort of hit his peak, those, those folks

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of course successfully start, successfully start World War I.

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And so Chesterton was like, oh my gosh, we can’t, we can’t, we

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can’t have this. And so he wrote the man who Was Thursday, which is great

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book. Go back and listen to that episode. Then a little later on down the

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road, down the more modernist road of writing, you have, of course, Upton

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Sinclair, who wrote the Jungle. And we covered his book. Not the Jungle,

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we covered his book Oil, upon which the. The

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movie There Will Be Blood is. Is based on. With that.

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That great, like, monster performance

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by. By Daniel Day Lewis, one of the greatest living

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actors of our time. And that’ll take the Pepsi

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Challenge against anybody on that one.

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And so between Sinclair and Chesterton, between

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Dostoevsky and Nietzsche, between.

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Between, you know, Carl Jung, who we’re going to talk about in a minute,

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and Joseph campbell, even

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between McKenna and now, right? Everybody’s been able

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to put their hands on

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an aspect of the disease, right? An aspect of the. Of the

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rot, to your point. But very few have

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been able to. To. To

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describe or to talk about how to arrest

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or to. To talk about in certain practical ways about what it would mean

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to arrest the purveyors of.

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And I go back to Thomas Sowell’s idea in a conflict of Visions, you know,

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arrest an unconstrained vision, a person, a rowan.

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Unconstrained vision, which is. Seems to be what we’re now, the

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Roians are actually running out of energy, which

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maybe that’s the thing that constrains them. They just run out of energy. But then

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they always find a new abyss of, like, human things to, like, deal with. So,

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like, the abyss is never empty, right. You know,

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and the aforementioned AI will just open up another abyss of, like, human

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appetites and a whole. Another thing of human nature.

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So how do we, I guess maybe all of that to say, right, all those

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reference points. Let me distill it down into this question.

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So people, leaders want

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models. They desperately want models. It’s not just because models sell. That’s kind of

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facile, but that’s sort of where I jump off the train. Models sell

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because leaders, consumers who are consumers, leaders who are

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consumers, believe they work, right?

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How do we get leaders to exist with courage in

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the liminal space of that uncanny valley where things are weird,

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right? And we know they’re weird, and we have to live in that tension of

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them being weird so we can get to the other side of it. Because this

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is a courage act you’re talking about. And I don’t see

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courage is always a short supply, to paraphrase from Peter Thiel.

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I mean, yeah, absolutely. Courage isn’t. Because courage isn’t rewarded

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and I think that the only way we, we, we push into this is

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simply seeing, is believing if there is a,

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if there is a company, if there’s a leader, if there’s someone who enacts a

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different strategy and that strategy starts to gain

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traction, that’s what’s needed. Now I think that

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there’s a lot of discussions around what that, what that entails and

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I think we’re talking about some of it, but I think it, it’s to do

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this and to have this thing start to take shape. There needs to

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be a, almost like a new intentionality behind what

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it means to be a leader. There needs to be a sense like a, almost

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like a renaissance within the idea of what a leader is.

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Because right now we have the leader is the person at the top of the

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pyramid. That’s not necessarily what a leader is. Right? I mean

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this is going to shift into our future conversations about, about young. But,

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but we have to, it’s almost like we have to

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have a parallel idea start to form because people have

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become so entrenched in what they know and we see that in everything.

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Because the problem with leadership isn’t just in business.

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It’s in every aspect of life. It’s in the

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nonprofits, it’s in the medical, it’s in, it’s in politics.

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It’s everywhere. There is, there’s, there’s this systemic

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like morphing of what a leader is to say. Because I’m in the

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top position, I enact this kind of top down

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rule, this very tyrannical rule of do as I say, not as I do

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mentality. And I think the renaissance that needs to happen with leadership

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is that there needs to be a,

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a new Eden, if you will, a new place where there can be a new

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dawn, a new spawning of things where we go back to basics

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and we go back to this, the rediscovery of what it

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was to be a leader and how historically leaders

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found, like how they emerged, their evolutionary stories

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of how these things happened. Because our history, our

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history was, is, is an outcome of courage. Our history

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is an outcome of resilience. And our history is an outcome

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of this idea of just human will. And

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betting on the human component, it’s like betting on, not a

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model per se, but betting on the resilience and the raw

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potentiality that the human cond has. That is

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what our history comes from. And somehow whether that’s through

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politics and or you know, honoring

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shareholders, we have found a way to strip away

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all of that down to these bite size Very packageable,

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very KPI adjusted models

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because we need to be able to set a trend line.

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I’m going to pick up from, from my book here because when you mentioned

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courage and I kind of went in that direction on purpose a little bit there,

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kind of jog off the, off our prepared notes a little bit here. But this

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is good because the prepared notes are just a map now. The bridge is washed

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out now we’re going to figure out the territory. It’s fine.

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This, this. In, in my book 12 Rules for Leaders, I

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laid out basically and literally the first rule and the

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reason why I called it rules was not models is because I think rules are

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tighterly, are more tightly. Tightly are more tightly aligned

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with this idea of principles. Right? Because

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principles can, principles don’t wash out. But

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if you don’t know what your vision is or you don’t know how to think

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or you don’t even realize that you’re in that, that liminal

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space of the uncanny valley I just mentioned, you’re not going

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to be able to stake to a principle.

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And so I’ll use a very simple example here. Gravity

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is a principle. Doesn’t matter what I feel about it, doesn’t matter whether I like

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it, right. If I jump up, I’m going to come

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down. Right. And by the way, nobody gets, weirdly enough, nobody gets emotional about this.

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There’s no, I’m going to go here.

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There’s no riots in any state or city in our

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country, right, about gravity

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or air.

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Or, or, or, you know, or t. Well, there are riots about taxes.

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I’ll put taxes over there. They’re riots about that.

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But, but, right. It’s a bit of principle. Yeah, it’s a principle. Right.

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And so I look at

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courage as a principle. And, and so I, I came up with this methodology

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again, walking the walk of the line here, right? With models called the

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three C’s Methodology. Right. And the methodology,

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I’ll just quote directly from myself, the methodology of communicated with

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clarity, candor and courage, or the three Cs

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was developed and teased out through research development from the work we have done with

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teams and leaders over the last 10 years and was meant to clear up the

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tendency among organizational leaders to communicate with themselves, their teams

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and their organizational structures with obfuscation, deception and

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insincerity. By the way, I wrote a whole entire blog post

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the other day about cringe. Maybe we’ll get into that later on,

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but I’m not going to go into clarity, I’m not going to go into candor,

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although Candor is important. I think all three of these things tie together. Let me

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read about Courage Courage in a

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00:24:43,810 –> 00:24:47,570
conversation Having the courage to neither delay nor avoid the conversation

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is critical to achieving success. Brene

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Brown in 2007 describes courage as a quote unquote heart word.

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Although contemporary definitions focus on bravery and heroism, Brown encourages us to

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remember the quote, inner strength and level of commitment required for us to speak

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honestly and openly about who we are and about our experiences, good and

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bad. Close quote. And then I’m going to move down and

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say this. Leaders egos

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cloud their inner monologues, causing a lack of clarity in their thinking, which leads to

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00:25:18,260 –> 00:25:21,820
a lack of clear writing and clear speaking. A sure sign of a leader who

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00:25:21,820 –> 00:25:25,620
has abandoned their roles and responsibilities is the presence of jargon, heavy language that

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00:25:25,620 –> 00:25:28,300
only serves to confuse, misdirect and obfuscate an issue.

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00:25:29,100 –> 00:25:32,940
Ego rears its ugly head when leaders are pressed to be candid

404
00:25:33,100 –> 00:25:36,810
and usually about small issues or matters at hand. Being

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candid requires having a healthy dose of self awareness.

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00:25:40,570 –> 00:25:43,970
Skip down a little bit further. Finally, the courage or heart to think right and

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say and act in an ethical, moral and social fashion means more than just bending

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to the whims of the crowd. Sometimes the crowd is wrong.

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The team often needs to be led where it does not want to go.

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Sometimes the courage to lead in this way results in burnout, personal acrimony,

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00:26:00,450 –> 00:26:04,010
hazing, appeals to the dominance hierarchy which Dave just brought up,

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and all other manners of commonly accepted social and political negative outcomes.

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Keep in mind, the courage to lead in this way sometimes results in excellence,

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achievement, and moving the team past the mere accomplishment of a

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00:26:15,360 –> 00:26:18,360
result and toward the accomplishment of something

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00:26:19,000 –> 00:26:22,800
greater. But in order to get to that courage, you

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got to have wisdom, right? And the books that we

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explore on this show, and this is why I went to books rather than

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Leadership Lessons from the Great movies. Although I do have an idea for doing a

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00:26:33,980 –> 00:26:37,380
podcast based on that. I still have that percolating in the back of my brain.

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Or Leadership Lessons from the Great Plays, right? Like we do read

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Shakespeare on the show. We’ve read King Lear and Othello. We’re going to

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cover Macbeth and Henry viii, you know, on this show.

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But Leadership Lessons from the Great books, because

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00:26:55,140 –> 00:26:58,440
a book is. It’s still the best

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conduit, I think, for getting that wisdom across the

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ages. Like we started off this season with Voltaire.

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Candide was published, I think back in like 1789 or

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1784 or something. And my publication date is off. Forgive

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00:27:13,040 –> 00:27:16,440
me, but you know, it was sometime in the 18th century.

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That book, from the time that it was published to now,

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has traversed time. Voltaire is dead. The

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00:27:25,560 –> 00:27:29,120
book is still here. And we still talk about the ideas

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in the book. And some of us still read the book. So

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00:27:32,720 –> 00:27:36,520
books are. Books are idea viruses. They’re idea carriers. And

436
00:27:36,520 –> 00:27:39,680
ideas are like viruses. Right. And

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leading comes from integrating wisdom of the past into the future.

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Now, we could do this typically through myths, but

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00:27:49,370 –> 00:27:53,050
books preserve, I think, a mythic structure. Right?

440
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And they preserve that structure in a form that everybody can understand.

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So here’s the Jungian myth question. Let’s go

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ahead and jump into it. I mean, might as well. So

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young again. I’m actually. I actually ordered a book. You’ll appreciate this. I

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00:28:08,930 –> 00:28:11,610
ordered a book recently by

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00:28:13,130 –> 00:28:16,890
Richard Chiliata about the history of

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00:28:16,890 –> 00:28:20,490
religion. And I’m saying that wrong, I’m saying his name wrong, but I’m going to

447
00:28:20,490 –> 00:28:24,190
go a little bit down the road into the history of religion right now.

448
00:28:24,190 –> 00:28:27,350
I myself, I. I tend to glean, and I’ve said this on the show, I’ve

449
00:28:27,350 –> 00:28:31,190
been explicit about it. I tend to follow the Christian religion. I tend to

450
00:28:31,190 –> 00:28:34,150
try to walk out the, you know, the precepts of Jesus, try to treat my

451
00:28:34,150 –> 00:28:37,269
fellow man well, you know, all the usual shibboleths and those kinds of things.

452
00:28:38,470 –> 00:28:42,190
But it does also impact how I treat people, even who disagree with me

453
00:28:42,190 –> 00:28:45,670
or people who have arguments or people who, who don’t want to

454
00:28:45,990 –> 00:28:49,700
believe what I believe. All of it kind of feeds into

455
00:28:49,780 –> 00:28:53,580
not just one aspect of my life on one day during the week for

456
00:28:53,580 –> 00:28:57,220
two hours. Right. I, I definitely try to walk that out through the rest of

457
00:28:57,220 –> 00:29:00,540
my life. And Dave knows me personally. He can testify. If I’m a hypocrite about

458
00:29:00,540 –> 00:29:02,580
this or not, that’s up to him.

459
00:29:04,740 –> 00:29:08,340
But the fact of the matter is, just like

460
00:29:10,820 –> 00:29:14,620
Jesus’s words were put into a book, which we

461
00:29:14,620 –> 00:29:18,260
now call a gospel, Carl Jung’s words were put into a book.

462
00:29:19,540 –> 00:29:23,060
And there are many Jungian books around this idea of myth.

463
00:29:23,860 –> 00:29:27,380
What are some contributions from the books of Jung,

464
00:29:27,540 –> 00:29:31,060
from the ideas of how he thought about myth that we can apply

465
00:29:31,940 –> 00:29:35,660
to leaders and their models of leading? That was

466
00:29:35,660 –> 00:29:39,500
a long lead in a lot of things to

467
00:29:39,500 –> 00:29:43,200
follow there. But like I said, the, the bridge is washed out, so I’m going

468
00:29:43,200 –> 00:29:46,440
to wander all over the place now a little bit. But this idea of Jungian

469
00:29:46,440 –> 00:29:49,560
myth, because I think myth is another way to kind of get that the wisdom

470
00:29:49,560 –> 00:29:53,200
of the ages as a virus

471
00:29:54,160 –> 00:29:57,600
to infect the postmodern disease. I think Myths is the way to do this.

472
00:29:58,240 –> 00:30:01,640
Am I onto something? Am I missing something? Where are the holes in my

473
00:30:01,640 –> 00:30:05,400
thinking? Go ahead, Dave. Yeah, it’s great. I think

474
00:30:05,400 –> 00:30:09,130
is, as a quick aside, when you’re talking earlier about, you

475
00:30:09,130 –> 00:30:12,210
know, courage, I think it’s good to make the distinction between what bravery is and

476
00:30:12,210 –> 00:30:15,650
what courage is. Yeah. Because bravery is the state of

477
00:30:15,650 –> 00:30:19,370
readiness to like to receive some unknown

478
00:30:19,370 –> 00:30:22,890
force, to, to step into the unknown. But courage

479
00:30:22,890 –> 00:30:26,690
is definitively different because it’s a state of going,

480
00:30:26,690 –> 00:30:30,010
I know what the challenge is going to be and I know it’s how it’s

481
00:30:30,010 –> 00:30:33,370
going to hurt me or it’s going to impact me. And yet I choose to

482
00:30:33,370 –> 00:30:37,190
push on anyway. And I think that distinction is really, really important. And

483
00:30:37,190 –> 00:30:41,030
it goes back into the myth. The vast majority of

484
00:30:41,510 –> 00:30:44,950
Jungian myths are focused on the courage

485
00:30:44,950 –> 00:30:48,790
aspect of things rather than the bravery aspect of things.

486
00:30:48,790 –> 00:30:51,830
There are obviously some, some exceptions to that. But I,

487
00:30:52,390 –> 00:30:56,030
we think about Jungian myth. There’s three things that really stood out to me about

488
00:30:56,030 –> 00:30:59,710
this. I first think that the idea of the integration of the shadow is

489
00:30:59,710 –> 00:31:02,980
number one, because every leader has a shadow. And

490
00:31:03,620 –> 00:31:06,980
every leader has that part of them that they don’t want to

491
00:31:07,300 –> 00:31:11,020
accept, they don’t want to engage, they don’t, they try to hide

492
00:31:11,020 –> 00:31:14,260
it, like their desire for power, their fear of failure,

493
00:31:15,460 –> 00:31:18,940
this bias that they have towards people on the team or outcome

494
00:31:18,940 –> 00:31:22,420
structures. And so if a leader ignores

495
00:31:23,620 –> 00:31:27,390
their shadow, leadership becomes fragile and

496
00:31:27,390 –> 00:31:31,110
performative. It becomes this thing that’s very self serving and that

497
00:31:31,110 –> 00:31:34,830
doesn’t serve anyone. And so the idea is by integrating the shadow,

498
00:31:34,830 –> 00:31:37,630
the leader learns how to

499
00:31:38,350 –> 00:31:42,110
recognize that they have the capacity, they have the capacity

500
00:31:42,110 –> 00:31:45,870
to be ruthless, they have the capacity for all these negative things, but they

501
00:31:45,870 –> 00:31:49,550
learn how to harness that to essentially protect the team and

502
00:31:49,550 –> 00:31:53,270
to fight for the team. And so you have to, you have to

503
00:31:53,270 –> 00:31:56,430
know yourself to know how to essentially navigate yourself,

504
00:31:57,090 –> 00:32:00,730
which then naturally leads into the next one, which is the

505
00:32:00,730 –> 00:32:04,250
idea of like the hero’s journey. And I think the key with this is that

506
00:32:04,250 –> 00:32:06,850
the leader, it’s not that the leader is the hero,

507
00:32:08,370 –> 00:32:12,090
it’s navigating the hero’s journey. We have to shift from

508
00:32:12,090 –> 00:32:15,330
this idea. And I think this is a core problem with leadership, is that leaders

509
00:32:15,330 –> 00:32:18,530
view themselves as the hero of the organization. Wrong.

510
00:32:19,010 –> 00:32:22,610
You are the leader as a mentor. You need to become

511
00:32:22,770 –> 00:32:26,620
the Merlin to the group, not the main character of

512
00:32:26,620 –> 00:32:30,420
the group. And by doing this, by, by becoming

513
00:32:30,420 –> 00:32:34,220
this thing and, and taking yourself out of the role of the protagonist,

514
00:32:34,620 –> 00:32:38,100
you become the facilitator and thus you are

515
00:32:38,100 –> 00:32:41,420
helping to guide and to have everybody on your team

516
00:32:41,740 –> 00:32:45,260
navigate this hero’s journey so that they become the hero that

517
00:32:45,260 –> 00:32:48,860
conquers the challenge, that has the resolution, that has this,

518
00:32:50,420 –> 00:32:54,220
this aware, this growth, this expectation, essentially the dawning of

519
00:32:54,220 –> 00:32:57,860
the new hero. The hero’s journey is for the, the

520
00:32:57,860 –> 00:33:01,580
novice, the naive, to wander out into this unknown

521
00:33:01,580 –> 00:33:05,380
place and to engage with the ecosystem, thus to return as the king,

522
00:33:05,779 –> 00:33:09,460
which perfectly segues to the last archetype, which

523
00:33:09,460 –> 00:33:13,100
is it’s the king or queen archetype. And that is because the king and the

524
00:33:13,100 –> 00:33:16,300
queen represent order. They represent

525
00:33:16,380 –> 00:33:19,940
fertility, blessings, prosperity. And if the king and

526
00:33:19,940 –> 00:33:23,020
queen are not healthy, then the entire kingdom suffers.

527
00:33:23,660 –> 00:33:27,340
So this idea, this goes back to what we were talking about, containers, is

528
00:33:27,340 –> 00:33:31,100
that the king and the queen, their primary role

529
00:33:31,100 –> 00:33:34,900
is to create a container or the boundary, or thus

530
00:33:34,900 –> 00:33:38,380
the kingdom in which all of the people live in.

531
00:33:39,020 –> 00:33:42,790
It’s your job to provide the space. And if you

532
00:33:42,790 –> 00:33:46,590
think back through history, right, we naturally, the contribution that

533
00:33:46,590 –> 00:33:50,430
this does is it blesses people to do the

534
00:33:50,430 –> 00:33:54,270
work by holding the kingdom, by preserving the kingdom, you, in a sense,

535
00:33:54,270 –> 00:33:57,950
are the facilitator for all of

536
00:33:57,950 –> 00:34:01,630
this growth and all of these other archetypes. But if you don’t

537
00:34:01,630 –> 00:34:05,430
understand that, and I think that this goes back integrating all these

538
00:34:05,430 –> 00:34:09,130
together by not recognizing the shadow and by the leaders that

539
00:34:09,280 –> 00:34:12,840
thus, because they don’t recognize the shadow, step into forcing

540
00:34:12,840 –> 00:34:16,640
themselves to be the hero of this story. You step into the shadow

541
00:34:16,640 –> 00:34:20,240
elements of the king or the queen, which is impotence and tyranny.

542
00:34:20,560 –> 00:34:23,880
And that is where what Carl Jung would say is, you enter the

543
00:34:23,880 –> 00:34:27,600
wasteland. And the wasteland myth is this idea

544
00:34:27,600 –> 00:34:30,960
where nothing can prosper. It is that there is a

545
00:34:31,040 –> 00:34:34,720
finality to it, that everything here is dead.

546
00:34:35,340 –> 00:34:37,740
And because everything has been

547
00:34:38,540 –> 00:34:42,140
completely unattended to, nothing ever will grow again.

548
00:34:42,700 –> 00:34:46,540
And so I think that these archetypes, it’s interesting when I was thinking about this

549
00:34:46,540 –> 00:34:50,140
question, is that these archetypes stack onto themselves.

550
00:34:50,300 –> 00:34:52,620
And these things, you know,

551
00:34:54,220 –> 00:34:58,020
maybe a great way of saying it is this, is that Jung says very

552
00:34:58,020 –> 00:35:01,300
clearly that all evolution, all

553
00:35:01,300 –> 00:35:04,890
leadership, all growth, all has to be an internal transformation

554
00:35:04,890 –> 00:35:08,530
before an external action. It has to happen that way.

555
00:35:09,010 –> 00:35:12,850
And I think just from my observations, and I’m

556
00:35:12,850 –> 00:35:16,690
sure you’ve seen this too, that we’ve inverted that, that we

557
00:35:16,690 –> 00:35:20,490
are now looking at the external outcome as the validation that

558
00:35:20,490 –> 00:35:23,330
the internal process has transformed. And

559
00:35:23,650 –> 00:35:27,370
Postmodernism 101, right. I

560
00:35:27,370 –> 00:35:30,560
think that this is where it’s. Because it’s because,

561
00:35:32,720 –> 00:35:36,560
okay, so it’s because Foucault didn’t

562
00:35:36,560 –> 00:35:40,160
believe in myth. Of course. Of course not. Why would he.

563
00:35:41,920 –> 00:35:45,680
There’s no point. The model, the model will not

564
00:35:45,680 –> 00:35:49,360
allow myth because he would then be taking reference from

565
00:35:49,360 –> 00:35:53,000
something that came before him. But even, but even I would go, I would go

566
00:35:53,000 –> 00:35:55,440
back even further. I would say, and I get an argue with a buddy of

567
00:35:55,440 –> 00:35:59,070
mine about this who really, really likes Camus. He loves

568
00:35:59,070 –> 00:36:01,430
Camus. He, he does. He loves

569
00:36:02,630 –> 00:36:06,150
camo in absurdity. And that of course leads him into

570
00:36:06,390 –> 00:36:09,590
liking Jack Kerouac. Great guy. And Charles

571
00:36:09,590 –> 00:36:13,350
Bukowski and sort of Hunter Thompson. Like there’s a line there,

572
00:36:13,350 –> 00:36:17,190
right, from Camus to Hunter Thompson to, to your point, the,

573
00:36:17,190 –> 00:36:20,950
the weirdness that Terence McKenna described. Right, but that’s just one,

574
00:36:21,430 –> 00:36:25,230
one branch, right? That’s the absurdity branch. Then you have

575
00:36:25,230 –> 00:36:28,750
existentialism, right? And the existentialists from

576
00:36:28,750 –> 00:36:32,590
Sartre all the way down through, I would argue

577
00:36:32,590 –> 00:36:36,350
Roland Barth’s. But almost everybody has existential dread now. You can’t

578
00:36:36,350 –> 00:36:39,990
really, can’t really pin it to one, to one author. It’s been so diffused

579
00:36:40,309 –> 00:36:43,750
through, through our society. I mean, I even read

580
00:36:43,990 –> 00:36:47,830
recently how the book of Ecclesiastes was basically

581
00:36:47,830 –> 00:36:50,790
an existential diatribe. And I thought

582
00:36:51,970 –> 00:36:55,530
if you went back and told Solomon that he wouldn’t understand what you were

583
00:36:55,530 –> 00:36:59,010
talking about. Like, he didn’t. There’s no frame of

584
00:36:59,010 –> 00:37:02,210
reference there for that in like, you know,

585
00:37:02,690 –> 00:37:06,530
5th century BC Judea. There’s no reference

586
00:37:06,530 –> 00:37:10,290
point for that. They didn’t. I mean, sure, human beings are human beings, human

587
00:37:10,290 –> 00:37:14,050
beings across time, but the idea of a separated

588
00:37:14,050 –> 00:37:17,370
out existential dread that we could then like all smoke our cigarettes again into car

589
00:37:17,370 –> 00:37:21,050
crashes around like, come on, you know, come on. So you’ve got that,

590
00:37:21,050 –> 00:37:24,880
you’ve got that. He got that line separated out. So the existentialists

591
00:37:24,880 –> 00:37:28,400
don’t believe in the myth and then

592
00:37:30,080 –> 00:37:33,320
not to pick on Nietzsche. That’s too easy. All of the

593
00:37:33,320 –> 00:37:36,920
followers from him don’t believe in myth either. They viciously have

594
00:37:36,920 –> 00:37:40,600
to have attacked Jung primarily because they

595
00:37:40,600 –> 00:37:44,400
believed that. And Jordan Peterson points this out. I’m not the person who’s come

596
00:37:44,400 –> 00:37:48,040
up with this insight, so I can’t. I got to give credit where credit is

597
00:37:48,040 –> 00:37:51,670
due. They believed that you could, you were

598
00:37:51,670 –> 00:37:54,910
somehow going to have to create your own

599
00:37:55,710 –> 00:37:59,510
value system from yourself. And as a person who’s

600
00:37:59,510 –> 00:38:03,230
a Christian, I look at that and I literally laugh.

601
00:38:03,390 –> 00:38:06,950
I laugh. I have to laugh at the absurdity of that because it doesn’t. There’s

602
00:38:06,950 –> 00:38:10,670
no log there’s that’s. If that were possible, we would have no

603
00:38:10,670 –> 00:38:14,190
need for the myth then. So it’s an ouroboros that eats its own tail.

604
00:38:14,980 –> 00:38:18,380
So you have these three strains that have infected leadership. The

605
00:38:18,380 –> 00:38:22,100
existential strain, the nihilist strain and the

606
00:38:22,100 –> 00:38:25,820
absurdist strain that have all run into postmodernism. And

607
00:38:25,820 –> 00:38:29,580
thus the myth has been undercut. And the challenge we have today is. And

608
00:38:29,580 –> 00:38:32,820
by the way, it’s been undercut. I’m going to make this very, very clear. It’s

609
00:38:32,820 –> 00:38:36,420
been undercut in the

610
00:38:36,420 –> 00:38:39,700
smallest incubator possible for leadership, the family.

611
00:38:42,070 –> 00:38:45,790
The family is the first organizational spot where you learn about

612
00:38:45,790 –> 00:38:49,110
leadership. It is, it’s the world’s first organization

613
00:38:49,750 –> 00:38:52,870
and we’ve undercut it massively in our culture.

614
00:38:53,510 –> 00:38:56,950
And I don’t know how we. I’m not objecting to your analysis of Jung. I

615
00:38:56,950 –> 00:39:00,390
think you’re absolutely correct. These are things that I’ve heard before. My

616
00:39:00,390 –> 00:39:04,070
pushback is. I don’t know how we get back to there from where we are

617
00:39:04,070 –> 00:39:07,190
now. I don’t know how we rescue the spirits of our dead fathers.

618
00:39:08,420 –> 00:39:11,940
I don’t know how we go into, into Plato’s cave and pull those people out.

619
00:39:12,900 –> 00:39:16,740
I think I actually, I think, I think it’s. It’s right, it’s. It’s so obvious

620
00:39:16,740 –> 00:39:20,420
that it’s hard to see. And that is. Okay, look at the outcomes.

621
00:39:20,900 –> 00:39:24,500
Why are we having my, my line of work doing.

622
00:39:24,580 –> 00:39:28,420
Doing therapy. Doing specifically like marriage therapy and couples

623
00:39:28,420 –> 00:39:32,180
counseling. We. There,

624
00:39:32,180 –> 00:39:35,980
there is one, there’s one extremely poignant thing

625
00:39:35,980 –> 00:39:39,740
that no one wants to talk about, but it is, it.

626
00:39:39,820 –> 00:39:43,380
It leads to the most positive outcomes and that is go

627
00:39:43,380 –> 00:39:47,020
back into the understanding the, the historical

628
00:39:47,020 –> 00:39:50,620
structures of what is divine masculine energy, healthy masculine energy,

629
00:39:50,700 –> 00:39:54,460
healthy feminine energy. These are, this is like if, if Young,

630
00:39:54,540 –> 00:39:58,220
if, if Young’s myths are. Some are the house. The

631
00:39:58,220 –> 00:40:01,030
understandings of the, the

632
00:40:01,910 –> 00:40:05,430
long standing, like the worldwide integration of

633
00:40:05,510 –> 00:40:09,110
masculine energy and feminine energy in all cultures is the foundation

634
00:40:09,750 –> 00:40:13,350
when couples understand that innately.

635
00:40:13,590 –> 00:40:17,310
Right. That evolution is slow and culture is fast and that when you

636
00:40:17,310 –> 00:40:21,150
go back to this idea that women innately are attracted

637
00:40:21,150 –> 00:40:24,470
to masculine things, that is the seduction that

638
00:40:24,470 –> 00:40:27,950
activates the feminine in them, vice versa. Men are

639
00:40:27,950 –> 00:40:31,560
innately attracted to, to the divine feminine, the

640
00:40:31,560 –> 00:40:34,960
healthy feminine. It’s what, it’s what seduces us towards women.

641
00:40:35,440 –> 00:40:38,840
When we understand that, it’s like, well what. How does that

642
00:40:38,840 –> 00:40:42,520
translate into bringing us back is going. What’s

643
00:40:42,520 –> 00:40:45,840
making happy marriages? It’s not necessarily

644
00:40:46,160 –> 00:40:49,680
an adherence to a certain religion, but it is absolutely an

645
00:40:49,680 –> 00:40:53,360
Adherence to the idea that there is a, that there is a foundation of

646
00:40:53,360 –> 00:40:57,040
healthy masculine, healthy feminine energy that is transcendent.

647
00:40:57,420 –> 00:41:01,100
It is transcendent across all things and all we

648
00:41:01,100 –> 00:41:04,540
see. Every single thing we see. This is why

649
00:41:04,780 –> 00:41:08,460
every happy couple, every couple that stood the test of time, that’s been

650
00:41:08,460 –> 00:41:11,900
married for a lifetime, the people that are celebrating things,

651
00:41:12,220 –> 00:41:15,860
it’s not that one person is greater than the other, but rather it’s a

652
00:41:15,860 –> 00:41:19,660
recognition that both are equally different but equally valuable.

653
00:41:20,380 –> 00:41:24,180
Essentially it’s the yin yang symbol manifested. That’s probably the

654
00:41:24,180 –> 00:41:27,940
easiest visualization to have that. And in that symbol, just

655
00:41:28,020 –> 00:41:31,780
so people understand that you have, you have yang energy,

656
00:41:31,860 –> 00:41:35,620
masculine energy and yin energy, feminine energy. But within each one of them there

657
00:41:35,620 –> 00:41:39,220
is a core of the other. What, what is that? It is this

658
00:41:39,700 –> 00:41:43,380
internal recognition that every man has to have

659
00:41:43,380 –> 00:41:47,220
some connection with divine feminine. And we seek out our partner

660
00:41:47,780 –> 00:41:51,380
that has that representation that, that aligns with that

661
00:41:51,380 –> 00:41:55,190
internal drive that we have. It’s our compassion. We talk about having chemistry with

662
00:41:55,190 –> 00:41:58,870
people. What we’re doing is we’re recognizing that this, this, this

663
00:41:58,870 –> 00:42:02,670
ideal that I have around femininity and the divine fem. I see it

664
00:42:02,670 –> 00:42:06,310
in you and vice versa. The women have this core of

665
00:42:06,310 –> 00:42:10,110
this divine core masculine ideal and thus they see it in us. So to

666
00:42:10,110 –> 00:42:13,550
answer your question, how do we get back to that? It’s going that we have

667
00:42:13,550 –> 00:42:17,310
to go back to the foundations. Masculine, healthy masculine

668
00:42:17,310 –> 00:42:21,150
and, and feminine energy is this foundation. And out of that,

669
00:42:21,150 –> 00:42:24,470
what do we see? We see the institutions of religion, we see the instit

670
00:42:25,650 –> 00:42:29,290
marriage, we see the institutions of all these things built upon this and

671
00:42:29,290 –> 00:42:33,050
they’ve lasted for thousands of years. And I think where we get into all

672
00:42:33,050 –> 00:42:35,970
these people cul de sacing themselves into

673
00:42:36,450 –> 00:42:40,210
postmodernism is that they’ve become jaded

674
00:42:40,210 –> 00:42:44,010
at the idea that it’s that simple. They become jaded

675
00:42:44,010 –> 00:42:47,730
over the idea that it’s not complicated. They want it to

676
00:42:47,730 –> 00:42:51,330
be complicated. You read Nietzsche, he needs it to be complicated. You,

677
00:42:51,330 –> 00:42:55,130
you, you, you read the postmodernists, they need, it’s almost like

678
00:42:55,130 –> 00:42:58,350
there’s the self aggrandiz, like. Well, I

679
00:42:58,590 –> 00:43:02,190
think. And that because, because I, because I think it’s this way,

680
00:43:02,510 –> 00:43:06,350
then I’m going to speak just adamantly about it and I’m

681
00:43:06,350 –> 00:43:09,310
going to speak with vigor about it and I’m going to speak with passion about

682
00:43:09,310 –> 00:43:12,990
it and it becomes the self fulfilling prophecy. There’s no

683
00:43:12,990 –> 00:43:16,630
difference between all the people you listed and all of these

684
00:43:16,630 –> 00:43:19,790
people from Nietzsche to the existentialists to the postmodernist.

685
00:43:20,110 –> 00:43:23,880
To, to any of this put the put

686
00:43:23,960 –> 00:43:27,720
replace them with just modern political heads and CEOs.

687
00:43:27,720 –> 00:43:31,080
It’s the same thing. They are so

688
00:43:31,240 –> 00:43:34,680
wound up with that believing in themselves

689
00:43:35,640 –> 00:43:39,400
that they themselves, it’s become they self. They

690
00:43:39,400 –> 00:43:43,080
self like. It’s almost like a self fulfilling loop. They

691
00:43:43,080 –> 00:43:46,800
now, they now praise themselves for this marvelous sense

692
00:43:46,800 –> 00:43:50,320
of conviction that they have. And thus because they have convinced themselves they’re

693
00:43:50,320 –> 00:43:51,800
convicted of it, it must be true.

694
00:43:54,360 –> 00:43:58,200
So I, I laugh not because I disagree. I,

695
00:43:58,200 –> 00:44:00,920
I laugh because this is the,

696
00:44:02,040 –> 00:44:05,720
this is the thing I’ve suspected ever since I took philosophy classes and

697
00:44:05,720 –> 00:44:09,480
our shared alma mater way back in the day. And

698
00:44:10,200 –> 00:44:14,040
I would get, I would get wrapped up in

699
00:44:14,040 –> 00:44:17,560
arguments with philosophy majors, quite frankly.

700
00:44:17,820 –> 00:44:20,860
One of my good friends is a double major and you know who I’m talking

701
00:44:20,860 –> 00:44:24,220
about, double major philosophy and psychology. Now he’s off being a police

702
00:44:24,220 –> 00:44:27,940
officer in, in a, in a location to be named later

703
00:44:27,940 –> 00:44:31,780
in Minnesota somewhere. And, and the kinds of discussions

704
00:44:31,780 –> 00:44:35,500
that I would get in with him and with others

705
00:44:35,500 –> 00:44:39,340
who were in the philosophy program and in my mid-20s.

706
00:44:39,340 –> 00:44:42,700
I couldn’t articulate what you have articulated so well here.

707
00:44:43,020 –> 00:44:46,810
I just had a sense that this is incorrect. You’re missing

708
00:44:46,810 –> 00:44:50,450
something fundamental here. Right? And that, and the other piece

709
00:44:50,450 –> 00:44:53,890
is it can’t just be that complicated like we’ve, we’ve

710
00:44:53,890 –> 00:44:57,290
somehow built complication out as if it is the thing.

711
00:44:58,570 –> 00:45:02,250
With that being said, I think that

712
00:45:02,330 –> 00:45:06,010
it requires, there is a requirement of, well,

713
00:45:07,290 –> 00:45:11,040
fire. Let’s talk about, let’s talk about for just a minute the mythic, the

714
00:45:11,040 –> 00:45:12,840
mythic nature of fire, right?

715
00:45:15,080 –> 00:45:18,840
Fire burns away things. It burns away

716
00:45:18,840 –> 00:45:22,560
things from the hero. It burns away things from the,

717
00:45:22,560 –> 00:45:26,200
the shadow, right? And

718
00:45:27,800 –> 00:45:30,200
forces both the king and the queen

719
00:45:31,400 –> 00:45:34,360
to either themselves walk through

720
00:45:36,770 –> 00:45:40,450
a thing, right, in some myths, or it requires

721
00:45:40,450 –> 00:45:43,730
them. And this is even harder to put their children

722
00:45:44,610 –> 00:45:48,450
through a fire. Now, with that

723
00:45:48,450 –> 00:45:52,249
being said, as a person who is

724
00:45:52,249 –> 00:45:55,450
a Christian, I am opposed to putting children through fire, whether

725
00:45:55,450 –> 00:45:59,210
metaphorical or literal, for a whole

726
00:45:59,210 –> 00:46:02,980
variety of reasons. And I don’t mean that I’m opposed

727
00:46:02,980 –> 00:46:06,580
in terms of putting weight of them on, pressure on them, or increasing

728
00:46:06,580 –> 00:46:10,300
responsibility. That’s not fire. Fire both consumes

729
00:46:10,540 –> 00:46:14,380
and burns off. That’s a different thing. And that’s a, that’s a nuance of

730
00:46:14,380 –> 00:46:18,140
a distinction with a difference. Well, I think I would add though that

731
00:46:18,700 –> 00:46:22,540
fire represents initiation, right? Because fire is also

732
00:46:22,540 –> 00:46:26,220
the beginning and the end. It is also the lifebringer.

733
00:46:26,220 –> 00:46:29,460
It is also the restorer. It is also. So

734
00:46:30,100 –> 00:46:33,620
maybe just as a reflection on Fire.

735
00:46:35,700 –> 00:46:39,380
Let’s view a better way of thinking about fire is fire

736
00:46:39,380 –> 00:46:43,100
is the initiation of your pressure. It’s just that what happens

737
00:46:43,100 –> 00:46:46,940
is that we have to surrender. One thing that Buddhists have, right, is

738
00:46:46,940 –> 00:46:50,260
you have to surrender to some of these archetypical things

739
00:46:50,820 –> 00:46:54,270
because they are bigger than you. And I think that

740
00:46:54,510 –> 00:46:58,150
that’s a, it’s an interesting aspect of that, of that faith that has, I think,

741
00:46:58,150 –> 00:47:01,710
something very, very foundationally awesome. Just

742
00:47:01,870 –> 00:47:04,830
in awe inspiring to just engage with as an idea.

743
00:47:05,470 –> 00:47:09,230
But when we think about fire as the initiator, what we’re really

744
00:47:09,310 –> 00:47:13,150
saying is that especially if it’s a parent to children,

745
00:47:13,630 –> 00:47:16,830
right, it’s going, I need to let you discover

746
00:47:17,870 –> 00:47:21,670
the pain of what this is and also vice versa, so that

747
00:47:21,670 –> 00:47:25,330
you can thus develop the courage to know that fire can burn you. So you

748
00:47:25,330 –> 00:47:29,090
walking through it, it goes full circle with our idea here that it’s

749
00:47:29,090 –> 00:47:32,490
that to have courage, bravery is

750
00:47:32,970 –> 00:47:36,810
okay, I need to approach the fire or the fire can happen. Courage

751
00:47:36,810 –> 00:47:40,410
would say is fire will burn. Fire just burned you. So let’s go.

752
00:47:40,890 –> 00:47:44,570
But you still need to push through it. And I think that without that,

753
00:47:44,810 –> 00:47:48,410
this idea that fire is the initiation, then

754
00:47:48,650 –> 00:47:52,010
essentially we get cul de sac as a society.

755
00:47:53,530 –> 00:47:57,130
And I agree with that. Yes. Again, I want to be clear on that. Nuance

756
00:47:57,130 –> 00:47:59,130
is a distinction with the difference. I don’t,

757
00:48:00,650 –> 00:48:03,210
no, I’m not a, you know, I’m not a big fan of putting our children

758
00:48:03,210 –> 00:48:06,810
on altars and, you know, hurting them. Not advocating for any of that.

759
00:48:06,810 –> 00:48:10,650
Absolutely not. And I see what

760
00:48:10,650 –> 00:48:14,490
you’re saying about the, the, the, the hero’s journey

761
00:48:14,490 –> 00:48:18,250
and these archetypes. One of the layers on this that we

762
00:48:18,250 –> 00:48:20,090
have to layer on is, of course, technology.

763
00:48:21,900 –> 00:48:22,140
Now,

764
00:48:25,500 –> 00:48:29,180
I don’t remember who it was who brought

765
00:48:29,180 –> 00:48:33,020
technology down from, from, from the gods and brought

766
00:48:33,020 –> 00:48:35,580
it to. In the, in the Greek myth. I can’t remember that myth right now.

767
00:48:35,580 –> 00:48:38,100
But you know who I’m talking about and my listeners will know who I’m talking

768
00:48:38,100 –> 00:48:41,580
about. Prometheus. There we go. Thank you. Yes.

769
00:48:41,580 –> 00:48:45,380
Frankenstein, the modern Prometheus. There we go. Love that title. And

770
00:48:45,380 –> 00:48:49,040
we’ve covered Frankenstein actually, or we will cover Frankenstein on this show.

771
00:48:49,600 –> 00:48:53,400
I actually did read Mary Shelley’s book last year, and I just ran out

772
00:48:53,400 –> 00:48:55,840
of time. Didn’t have an opportunity to bring it to the folks. But there’s some

773
00:48:55,840 –> 00:48:59,600
interesting ideas there about technology as an illusion. Right.

774
00:49:00,160 –> 00:49:03,520
Because the thing that, that we. So we have the

775
00:49:03,520 –> 00:49:06,720
postmodern mind, we have the rivers of

776
00:49:06,800 –> 00:49:10,160
nihilism, absurdism and, and,

777
00:49:10,640 –> 00:49:14,080
And Existential dread that sort of flow into that postmodern

778
00:49:14,370 –> 00:49:18,130
headwaters, right? And then layered on top of

779
00:49:18,130 –> 00:49:21,810
that as sort of an. A thin armor

780
00:49:22,210 –> 00:49:25,650
or a cover is technology. Right?

781
00:49:26,050 –> 00:49:28,850
And we confuse, is one of the things I’ve always said on the show, we

782
00:49:28,850 –> 00:49:32,370
confuse our technological prowess with

783
00:49:32,370 –> 00:49:36,130
real wisdom. We confuse our technological prowess

784
00:49:36,130 –> 00:49:39,730
with real intellectual capacity. We,

785
00:49:39,730 –> 00:49:43,490
we say that just because we can create an algorithm that will manipulate

786
00:49:43,490 –> 00:49:47,260
people to buying everything from Bitcoin to whatever it is that Target

787
00:49:47,340 –> 00:49:51,140
has on sale in a Facebook ad, we confuse the ability to

788
00:49:51,140 –> 00:49:54,900
do that with the ability to know something about people. And to

789
00:49:54,900 –> 00:49:58,220
your point, to be able to put people through a metaphorical fire

790
00:49:58,620 –> 00:50:02,220
or to be able to do something that. Or not do something, be able to

791
00:50:02,220 –> 00:50:05,820
pull something out of people that even the pre moderns could not do.

792
00:50:05,900 –> 00:50:09,420
This is why we read Francis Bacon’s book the Great

793
00:50:09,420 –> 00:50:13,030
Installation, and just sort of looking at what are the

794
00:50:13,030 –> 00:50:16,510
limits of scientific reason. And technology, I think

795
00:50:16,510 –> 00:50:19,710
presents the limits of scientific reason. That’s why in the

796
00:50:19,710 –> 00:50:23,110
Promethean myth, Prometheus was laid out on

797
00:50:23,990 –> 00:50:27,030
a rock, and then an eagle was able to peck out his liver,

798
00:50:27,670 –> 00:50:30,470
which was restored every day, and then the eagle would return.

799
00:50:31,590 –> 00:50:35,190
That’s the punishment, by the way, for Prometheus.

800
00:50:37,520 –> 00:50:40,800
Technology always creates illusions. And the illusion

801
00:50:40,960 –> 00:50:44,440
lies over, like I said, like an armor, over all of these

802
00:50:44,440 –> 00:50:47,600
assumptions. Leaders fall into

803
00:50:48,160 –> 00:50:51,680
this trap, as I do, as you do, as everybody does who lives now.

804
00:50:52,320 –> 00:50:56,120
And the reason we explore science fiction books is because science

805
00:50:56,120 –> 00:50:59,200
fiction writers have a unique ability to sort of peel the illusion away

806
00:51:00,400 –> 00:51:03,840
and sort of expose, you know, the things underneath.

807
00:51:06,590 –> 00:51:10,150
And technological advancement

808
00:51:10,150 –> 00:51:13,630
can’t provide hope, and it can’t hold back existential dread.

809
00:51:13,790 –> 00:51:17,350
It can’t defeat nihilism, and it really can’t defeat the spiritual forces of

810
00:51:17,350 –> 00:51:20,990
deconstruction. If technology could, it would have already done it.

811
00:51:21,230 –> 00:51:24,430
Right? So

812
00:51:24,990 –> 00:51:28,550
we’re going to see this with our new technology, with. With artificial

813
00:51:28,550 –> 00:51:32,080
intelligence models and our LLMs. We’re going to see this at

814
00:51:32,080 –> 00:51:35,000
scale. And this is what’s freaking everybody out. So we got to address this.

815
00:51:37,240 –> 00:51:41,080
Neither tech acceleration or tech solutionism is an option for

816
00:51:41,080 –> 00:51:44,360
leaders, either now or in the future. How can

817
00:51:44,600 –> 00:51:48,240
leaders think about technological advancement with, again, all these

818
00:51:48,240 –> 00:51:52,000
threads are bringing together, how do they think about that technology understanding, of course,

819
00:51:52,000 –> 00:51:55,840
going in with, yes, the preconceived notion, or maybe the

820
00:51:55,840 –> 00:51:59,580
preconceived wisdom, right, that technology is an illusion. How

821
00:51:59,580 –> 00:52:01,940
do we, how do we navigate that as leaders?

822
00:52:07,620 –> 00:52:11,220
I think the thing that’s missing is that we have

823
00:52:11,220 –> 00:52:14,940
lost a very Human centric pragmatism to this

824
00:52:14,940 –> 00:52:18,780
whole thing. We, we have shift. We have put ourselves in a

825
00:52:18,780 –> 00:52:22,540
place where we see technology as the savior and not as an

826
00:52:22,540 –> 00:52:25,670
integrated tool. And as a result of that,

827
00:52:29,030 –> 00:52:32,150
we end up letting the tool dictate the mission.

828
00:52:32,790 –> 00:52:36,630
And when we end up letting the tool dictate the mission, a

829
00:52:36,630 –> 00:52:39,510
whole bunch of weird promises are made now.

830
00:52:39,910 –> 00:52:43,270
Promises that are now made into

831
00:52:43,350 –> 00:52:47,190
honoring the model that we’ve chosen are

832
00:52:47,430 –> 00:52:50,990
honoring the technology. And it essentially

833
00:52:50,990 –> 00:52:54,310
erodes like we stop betting on human capacity

834
00:52:54,550 –> 00:52:58,270
and we start betting against on creator promises. And

835
00:52:58,270 –> 00:53:01,990
we, and I think this is the LLM argument wrapped up, is that these

836
00:53:01,990 –> 00:53:05,670
creators of these projects while are, while they’re

837
00:53:05,670 –> 00:53:09,270
just like the word awesome is probably the best word for it.

838
00:53:09,430 –> 00:53:13,070
They’re profound. At the same time, people now are

839
00:53:13,070 –> 00:53:16,710
treating them as gods and now we are replacing

840
00:53:16,710 –> 00:53:20,290
critical thinking and that, that human centric pragmatism, like,

841
00:53:20,530 –> 00:53:24,250
let’s have the human, human contact. Let’s

842
00:53:24,250 –> 00:53:27,730
us discuss, let us reengage, let us not know the

843
00:53:27,730 –> 00:53:31,410
answer right away and rather go through the process of investigation

844
00:53:31,570 –> 00:53:34,610
and maybe missteps to thus discover that

845
00:53:35,170 –> 00:53:38,890
we’ve lost that. And so what leaders need to

846
00:53:38,890 –> 00:53:42,570
recognize is that technology, we can use the

847
00:53:42,570 –> 00:53:45,610
technology. Going back to our, further, our earlier part of our conversation, we can use

848
00:53:45,610 –> 00:53:49,410
technology as the container. It can contain the data, but it can’t contain the

849
00:53:49,410 –> 00:53:53,090
culture. Right. It’s not the cure. So we, we can, we can

850
00:53:53,090 –> 00:53:56,770
integrate these things, we can integrate technology into this and we

851
00:53:56,770 –> 00:54:00,450
can use it to really stratify us up into these

852
00:54:00,450 –> 00:54:04,010
places we’ve never gone before. But if we make the fatal mistake of looking at

853
00:54:04,010 –> 00:54:07,810
it as a cure, all that it is this, this, this ointment,

854
00:54:07,810 –> 00:54:11,650
this, this, this thing that will. This one again I mentioned earlier, like

855
00:54:11,650 –> 00:54:14,420
the one piece, like it’s this, this, this perfect.

856
00:54:15,380 –> 00:54:19,220
It’s this missing element that all of a sudden, now that we have this

857
00:54:19,220 –> 00:54:22,980
new technological advance, we don’t need to rely on any of these other

858
00:54:22,980 –> 00:54:25,300
things. And I think that we see that over and over again.

859
00:54:26,740 –> 00:54:29,300
It’s interesting to me. You talk about, we talk about myths. I want to jog

860
00:54:29,300 –> 00:54:32,140
back to this for a second with the technology piece. It’s interesting to me that

861
00:54:32,140 –> 00:54:35,700
the entire Marvel universe, which is how most people in the millennial generation in Gen

862
00:54:35,700 –> 00:54:39,380
Z know about myth for good or ill. That’s how they know about

863
00:54:39,380 –> 00:54:42,800
myth. It’s interesting to me that the myth of that

864
00:54:42,800 –> 00:54:46,480
entire universe was built around Iron Man. Yes, it

865
00:54:46,480 –> 00:54:50,280
wasn’t built around Captain America, but if it had been

866
00:54:50,280 –> 00:54:53,840
Done. If they had been. If they had had the ability to make

867
00:54:53,840 –> 00:54:57,680
decent movies and build, and Hollywood had had the vision to do this back in

868
00:54:57,680 –> 00:55:01,200
the 19, let’s say 1980s even. I won’t even go back to the

869
00:55:01,200 –> 00:55:04,760
60s, 1980s. It would have been built around Captain America, not Iron Man.

870
00:55:05,080 –> 00:55:08,180
Correct. That’s a fundamental shift. Shift in the. Because that

871
00:55:08,180 –> 00:55:11,060
represents the shift to your point of

872
00:55:11,700 –> 00:55:14,980
believing that these creators

873
00:55:15,460 –> 00:55:18,580
and these promises of these, These Promethean creators

874
00:55:18,980 –> 00:55:22,580
will somehow bring us this utopia. That’s all Tony

875
00:55:22,580 –> 00:55:26,180
Stark was promising. I mean, this was even in. This was even

876
00:55:26,180 –> 00:55:29,300
in. What was it? A civil war, right? I think it was a civil war,

877
00:55:29,300 –> 00:55:33,100
right. With the Slovakia Accords, whatever the hell the plot of that movie was. I

878
00:55:33,100 –> 00:55:36,270
can’t remember they all merged together at a certain point. But

879
00:55:36,590 –> 00:55:40,190
he even said at the end of his. His first

880
00:55:40,350 –> 00:55:44,110
or the second movie, right. When the Congress, when the. The congressman

881
00:55:44,110 –> 00:55:47,670
played by the great Gary Shandling. I love Gary

882
00:55:47,670 –> 00:55:51,469
Shandling as a comedian. Oh, my God, he was incredible. But he was the senator.

883
00:55:51,870 –> 00:55:55,710
And you know, Tony Stark sits up there kind of like Elon Musk

884
00:55:55,710 –> 00:55:58,550
now. And he sits there and he says, in a congressional hearing. And he says,

885
00:55:58,550 –> 00:56:01,390
you know, you all should be thanking me. I’ve, like, privatized

886
00:56:02,830 –> 00:56:06,510
world peace. Like, why are you, like, having a problem?

887
00:56:06,750 –> 00:56:10,390
And then he walks out triumphantly to the claps from the reporters. Right,

888
00:56:10,390 –> 00:56:14,030
right. You should be thanking me. And that’s the attitude, by the way of a

889
00:56:14,030 –> 00:56:17,790
lot of the technologists from, from Jeff Bezos to Sam Altman

890
00:56:18,190 –> 00:56:20,950
from. And I like, I like Elon. We talk a lot about Elon on the

891
00:56:20,950 –> 00:56:24,630
show. I think, I think if. I think if he didn’t exist in real life,

892
00:56:24,630 –> 00:56:28,350
we’d have to create him. He’s that sort of

893
00:56:28,350 –> 00:56:31,680
mind. But their attitude, their

894
00:56:31,680 –> 00:56:35,400
posture is not one of humility. It’s not epistemic humility.

895
00:56:35,640 –> 00:56:39,360
It’s one of you should thank me, shut up and take what I

896
00:56:39,360 –> 00:56:43,160
tell you. And to me, that fundamentally

897
00:56:43,240 –> 00:56:47,040
shows in the technologists. And I’ve said

898
00:56:47,040 –> 00:56:49,800
this before, but maybe not necessarily on this show,

899
00:56:50,600 –> 00:56:54,120
written into blog posts and written it on Facebook comments. The

900
00:56:54,120 –> 00:56:57,930
technologists hate people. They actually hate people.

901
00:56:57,930 –> 00:57:01,610
And that’s really a really strong statement. And I want to be very clear. I

902
00:57:01,610 –> 00:57:05,250
don’t think they hate the people in their families that are personally connected to

903
00:57:05,250 –> 00:57:08,730
them. I don’t think they hate the people they married or the children they

904
00:57:08,730 –> 00:57:12,090
created. I don’t think they hate the people that they’re going to leave money to

905
00:57:12,090 –> 00:57:15,730
in trusts and wills for the next 85 generations. I think

906
00:57:15,730 –> 00:57:19,530
they’re fine with those people. Just like David is fine with his wife

907
00:57:19,530 –> 00:57:22,890
and kids in his family and I’m fine with my wife and kids in my

908
00:57:22,890 –> 00:57:26,600
family. But I think at a broader level,

909
00:57:27,480 –> 00:57:31,000
and I’ll pick on Bill Gates. I think Bill Gates genuinely hates people.

910
00:57:31,400 –> 00:57:34,760
I think he does. I don’t think he actually likes human beings at all. I

911
00:57:34,760 –> 00:57:38,160
think if the 30% of this planet went away in exchange for a

912
00:57:38,160 –> 00:57:42,000
technological like solution to like climate change, he would take

913
00:57:42,000 –> 00:57:45,800
that every day and twice on Sundays. Absolutely. And I

914
00:57:45,800 –> 00:57:49,410
don’t know if that makes those people the

915
00:57:49,410 –> 00:57:53,170
clinical definition of sociopath or psychopath. I don’t know what that makes them.

916
00:57:54,130 –> 00:57:57,850
Or just narcissists, the clinical definition of narcissist. But

917
00:57:57,850 –> 00:58:01,650
I see it in their behavior. And that’s what makes me

918
00:58:01,650 –> 00:58:05,490
cautious to the point of sometimes rejection of their

919
00:58:05,490 –> 00:58:09,090
promises. Yeah, I think when they are at it, I don’t think it

920
00:58:09,090 –> 00:58:12,810
necessarily makes them psychopaths or narcissists. But

921
00:58:12,810 –> 00:58:16,510
what it does, I mean, it’s. When

922
00:58:16,510 –> 00:58:20,350
you disconnect from something, it’s easy to villainize.

923
00:58:20,350 –> 00:58:24,110
And I think that this goes back to like, here’s

924
00:58:24,110 –> 00:58:26,830
a, here’s a very interesting thing about like this idea of

925
00:58:29,550 –> 00:58:32,790
them, like them hating people. I don’t think that they hate people. I think that

926
00:58:32,790 –> 00:58:36,510
they, they hate the revelation that people

927
00:58:36,670 –> 00:58:40,350
are not perfect and that they are the confounding variable

928
00:58:41,070 –> 00:58:44,750
in a system that they have idealized and have worshiped

929
00:58:44,750 –> 00:58:48,230
the pursuit of perfection. And because there is an

930
00:58:48,230 –> 00:58:51,590
innate flaw in the existence of humanity, it

931
00:58:51,590 –> 00:58:55,310
becomes the opposition. And so they segregate themselves

932
00:58:55,310 –> 00:58:59,070
away to thus villainize the opposition. Because if I can,

933
00:58:59,070 –> 00:59:02,910
if I can stop looking at you, talking with you, eating food with you, then

934
00:59:02,910 –> 00:59:06,110
I can simply put you into a category of saying you’re the problem.

935
00:59:07,000 –> 00:59:10,800
And this goes into like the theme of all this is, you

936
00:59:10,800 –> 00:59:13,480
know, how do we reconnect with all these pieces,

937
00:59:14,360 –> 00:59:16,920
all of the, in innovative,

938
00:59:19,000 –> 00:59:22,600
historically like revolutionary ideas from the great

939
00:59:22,600 –> 00:59:26,120
leaders, from the bones of the dead, right? From all these things. They,

940
00:59:26,280 –> 00:59:30,120
they come as they come out of nature and, and the,

941
00:59:30,280 –> 00:59:33,480
all the postmodernists. And I think this is, this is what we, this goes back

942
00:59:33,480 –> 00:59:36,980
to that other part of that conversation. They removed

943
00:59:36,980 –> 00:59:40,820
themselves from nature. And by removing yourself from

944
00:59:40,820 –> 00:59:44,500
nature, thus you disconnect yourself from myth. Well, if you disconnect yourself from

945
00:59:44,500 –> 00:59:48,020
myth, you can categorically put it into a category where it’s not valuable anymore. I

946
00:59:48,020 –> 00:59:51,740
can just cleave you off. Right? And so this idea Is that.

947
00:59:51,740 –> 00:59:55,460
How do we get back to it? We have to go back to why the

948
00:59:55,460 –> 00:59:59,140
classics are so important, why the leadership lessons are so important from these

949
00:59:59,140 –> 01:00:02,790
things is because before we jump onto the next

950
01:00:02,790 –> 01:00:06,510
big thing, before we do that, we should use what

951
01:00:06,510 –> 01:00:10,070
has stood like the modern approach. We should use what has come before us

952
01:00:10,230 –> 01:00:14,030
as a measure. For instance, if there’s some new technological

953
01:00:14,030 –> 01:00:17,670
strategy talking about ethics, we would be.

954
01:00:17,830 –> 01:00:21,670
We should look at that, we should compare that or rule that against

955
01:00:21,670 –> 01:00:25,350
Marcus Aurelius. Okay, you’re saying that you have this new

956
01:00:25,990 –> 01:00:29,830
way of looking at ethics. This is what has been a governing principle for thousands

957
01:00:29,830 –> 01:00:33,590
of years. Let’s look at this. Let’s. Oh, technology comes out with a new

958
01:00:33,590 –> 01:00:37,190
strategy, a new thing for strategy. Well then why aren’t

959
01:00:37,190 –> 01:00:40,110
we comparing that to Sun Tzu? Right.

960
01:00:41,390 –> 01:00:43,070
We have lost. I think

961
01:00:45,070 –> 01:00:48,390
there is a fallibility of humans and there is a hubris to

962
01:00:48,390 –> 01:00:51,870
humans. And I think that my biggest critique over

963
01:00:51,950 –> 01:00:55,630
most of the. These people who push

964
01:00:55,630 –> 01:00:58,990
against myth and push against this, this,

965
01:01:00,990 –> 01:01:04,030
this idea that there is something inherently spiritually

966
01:01:04,590 –> 01:01:08,430
resonant in us are people who, if you look at their lives,

967
01:01:08,430 –> 01:01:12,230
they have, they have isolated themselves away and

968
01:01:12,230 –> 01:01:15,670
they have put themselves into their own containers that are very self

969
01:01:15,670 –> 01:01:19,320
fulfilling. And thus then they go. Well, everything in

970
01:01:19,320 –> 01:01:23,120
my ecosystem seems to work so beautifully. There seems

971
01:01:23,120 –> 01:01:26,840
to be this flow to it. But when I look outside my container, look at

972
01:01:26,840 –> 01:01:29,640
that ugly, look at that messiness, look at that imperfection.

973
01:01:30,200 –> 01:01:33,560
Clearly I must be right and you must be wrong.

974
01:01:34,280 –> 01:01:37,880
It is, it is. The, is the, it is the most profoundly

975
01:01:38,120 –> 01:01:41,440
fallacious idea that psychology has ever discovered about

976
01:01:41,440 –> 01:01:45,290
humans is that we are self aggrandizing. We will always

977
01:01:45,530 –> 01:01:48,970
say that we are right. And again, this goes back to the shadow.

978
01:01:49,690 –> 01:01:53,450
No one ever talks about the, the, the, the,

979
01:01:54,010 –> 01:01:56,970
the shadow element of all of these great thinkers,

980
01:01:57,610 –> 01:02:01,050
all of. No one ever talks about this. We just take them as saying they

981
01:02:01,050 –> 01:02:04,810
are these anointed wise clerics

982
01:02:04,810 –> 01:02:07,770
of the age and no one ever. And we, and we

983
01:02:08,330 –> 01:02:12,090
dehumanize them and we put them on these pillars and we. Again,

984
01:02:12,090 –> 01:02:15,770
why they think they, why they attack young ironically. And maybe h

985
01:02:16,550 –> 01:02:20,150
is that they know that if they would stop and look at themselves

986
01:02:20,630 –> 01:02:24,390
that it. They would have to address within themselves this

987
01:02:24,390 –> 01:02:28,190
contradictory element. So they just go, well, young could doesn’t

988
01:02:28,190 –> 01:02:31,750
matter anymore because he. Again, it’s messy. I don’t want

989
01:02:31,750 –> 01:02:34,150
messy. I want clean. I don’t want messy or clean.

990
01:02:35,350 –> 01:02:38,910
I want clean. I want clean lines. Yeah, I want clean

991
01:02:38,910 –> 01:02:41,750
surfaces. Steve Jobs really liked clean. He liked clean

992
01:02:42,510 –> 01:02:46,350
minimalism Minimalism. Minimalism. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No

993
01:02:46,350 –> 01:02:49,230
friction. That’s how I, that’s how I sort of frame this, right?

994
01:02:51,230 –> 01:02:55,030
By the way, the no friction people drive me absolutely crazy. Because friction, just

995
01:02:55,030 –> 01:02:58,590
like gravity, is again, undefeated. It’s one of those, you know,

996
01:02:58,830 –> 01:03:02,190
properties of physics that comes about

997
01:03:03,230 –> 01:03:06,870
not only materially but also at every other level of the hierarchy you can

998
01:03:06,870 –> 01:03:10,600
possibly name. Because there is this thing called,

999
01:03:10,760 –> 01:03:14,600
which again, the technologists miss this. The resistance.

1000
01:03:15,400 –> 01:03:18,120
There’s just from.

1001
01:03:19,640 –> 01:03:23,280
It’s almost as if there’s a

1002
01:03:23,280 –> 01:03:27,000
myth with, with a, with an idea in there that,

1003
01:03:27,320 –> 01:03:30,200
that, that, that the ground itself would be cursed

1004
01:03:30,920 –> 01:03:34,760
for man’s efforts. It’s almost as if there’s a, there’s, there’s a, it might

1005
01:03:34,760 –> 01:03:38,560
be in a book that people might have heard of from way back in the

1006
01:03:38,560 –> 01:03:41,920
day that sits in the bottom of Western civilization, like all the way down under

1007
01:03:41,920 –> 01:03:45,120
Nietzsche, all the way down in the hairy, hairy basement. And no one wants to

1008
01:03:45,120 –> 01:03:47,680
go down there and look at that book, but it’s still down there. Like a

1009
01:03:47,680 –> 01:03:51,200
few people look at it, you know, might have a fourth

1010
01:03:51,200 –> 01:03:55,000
chapter, maybe a fourth verse where there was a curse or something.

1011
01:03:55,000 –> 01:03:57,480
I don’t know, some kind of resistance. I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m just,

1012
01:03:57,480 –> 01:03:58,560
I’m just spitballing here.

1013
01:04:01,180 –> 01:04:03,580
When we think about the

1014
01:04:04,300 –> 01:04:06,860
technologists, when we think about sort of

1015
01:04:07,820 –> 01:04:11,620
their lack of. I loved how you framed this humans, our lack

1016
01:04:11,620 –> 01:04:15,380
of human centric pragmatism. There’s two ideas. I want to leave here

1017
01:04:15,380 –> 01:04:19,100
and then I want to turn a quarter and start to close. So

1018
01:04:20,540 –> 01:04:24,260
at the practical level, I can hear my small business folks, my

1019
01:04:24,260 –> 01:04:27,810
entrepreneurship folks, my medium sized business

1020
01:04:27,810 –> 01:04:31,570
folks, my civic leaders going, okay, well, this has been an interesting intellectual

1021
01:04:31,570 –> 01:04:35,050
jog. Like I

1022
01:04:35,050 –> 01:04:38,530
gotta, I gotta work and then I gotta go home. And

1023
01:04:38,850 –> 01:04:42,210
there’s a, there’s a, there’s a tool on my phone called Chat GPT.

1024
01:04:43,170 –> 01:04:46,770
And I, I can use it for figuring out

1025
01:04:47,650 –> 01:04:51,370
how to compile all my recipes at my house, or I can

1026
01:04:51,370 –> 01:04:55,120
use it to figure out how to do a spreadsheet better. And the second

1027
01:04:55,120 –> 01:04:58,440
I use it to figure out how to do a spreadsheet better, I have a

1028
01:04:58,440 –> 01:05:02,200
choice. I can either get a $20 a month chat GPT program

1029
01:05:02,200 –> 01:05:05,840
where I could do a spreadsheet better, or I could fire Linda

1030
01:05:06,000 –> 01:05:09,440
who’s been. And I could fire Linda who’s been doing it for 20 years

1031
01:05:10,160 –> 01:05:12,160
now. Linda’s 20 year experience

1032
01:05:13,920 –> 01:05:17,520
because of the technologist’s promises doesn’t

1033
01:05:17,760 –> 01:05:21,550
matter. And so the writer Cory Doctoro. I

1034
01:05:21,550 –> 01:05:25,030
recently listened to an interview with him on the Mitch Joel podcast, the

1035
01:05:25,030 –> 01:05:28,550
Thinkers One podcast, actually pretty good. Used to be called Six Pixels of Separation.

1036
01:05:28,710 –> 01:05:32,030
And Mitchell is a great podcaster. He’s been

1037
01:05:32,030 –> 01:05:35,550
podcasting for Good Lord, almost as long as Joe Rogan. He’s

1038
01:05:35,550 –> 01:05:39,150
insane in the marketing space, and I recommend anybody go out and listen to him

1039
01:05:39,150 –> 01:05:42,790
saying interesting ideas. But anyway, he talked to

1040
01:05:42,790 –> 01:05:46,510
Corey Doctoro, who came up with his term and shittification to describe

1041
01:05:46,510 –> 01:05:50,250
what is happening all over. All over the Internet. And, and

1042
01:05:50,250 –> 01:05:53,570
Corey said this. He said, you know, I won’t take your job,

1043
01:05:53,890 –> 01:05:57,650
but a salesperson who will come to your boss

1044
01:05:57,810 –> 01:06:01,330
and sell them an AI solution will take your job. Yes.

1045
01:06:03,490 –> 01:06:07,010
That is a distinction with a difference. And I don’t agree with Corey about a

1046
01:06:07,010 –> 01:06:10,570
lot of his conclusions, but I agree with him on that. I think

1047
01:06:10,570 –> 01:06:14,370
he’s nailed that exactly correct. How

1048
01:06:14,370 –> 01:06:17,420
can leaders honor

1049
01:06:17,740 –> 01:06:21,460
Linda’s 20 years when they have a spreadsheet from Chat

1050
01:06:21,460 –> 01:06:25,260
GP spat out by ChatGPT for 20 bucks a month?

1051
01:06:25,580 –> 01:06:28,860
How do they. How can they weigh that in the balance? What’s the balance there

1052
01:06:28,860 –> 01:06:31,619
for them so they don’t villainize their own people? Because it’s easy to talk about

1053
01:06:31,619 –> 01:06:34,820
Bezos and Musk and these guys, but I actually think the problem is a lot

1054
01:06:34,820 –> 01:06:38,580
smaller and a lot closer to home. I think the problem is that salesperson coming

1055
01:06:38,580 –> 01:06:41,750
to you, selling you an AI solution for 20 bucks a month and Linda being

1056
01:06:41,750 –> 01:06:42,910
chucked out the back door.

1057
01:06:45,710 –> 01:06:49,510
So I

1058
01:06:49,510 –> 01:06:53,150
think we. Let’s borrow a page from Thomas. So, again,

1059
01:06:53,470 –> 01:06:57,310
his. His idea of tragic vision, right? The

1060
01:06:59,470 –> 01:07:03,150
historical realism, right? That. That utopias

1061
01:07:03,150 –> 01:07:06,750
don’t exist, that we cannot. That we’re never going to have

1062
01:07:07,120 –> 01:07:10,880
perfect. We’re never going to have perfect. We’re never going to have. We’re never going

1063
01:07:10,880 –> 01:07:14,080
to solve the problems of war and

1064
01:07:14,960 –> 01:07:18,560
racism and poverty. We will because

1065
01:07:18,560 –> 01:07:22,240
they’re. They’re ever evolving. They are. They themselves are not

1066
01:07:22,240 –> 01:07:26,000
static things. And so I think maybe the best way, I like

1067
01:07:26,000 –> 01:07:29,280
to say this is reestablishing the tragedy, the tragic universe

1068
01:07:29,280 –> 01:07:32,800
perspective. The tragic universe is this idea

1069
01:07:33,390 –> 01:07:36,270
that no level of postmodern

1070
01:07:36,750 –> 01:07:40,590
deconstructivism can get you down to the base elements where you can

1071
01:07:40,590 –> 01:07:44,430
remove that flaw, remove those

1072
01:07:44,430 –> 01:07:48,150
elements. It’s because reality is

1073
01:07:48,150 –> 01:07:51,750
the undisputed champion of time. It’s

1074
01:07:51,750 –> 01:07:55,230
always shifting. It’s always evolving. And thus we have to.

1075
01:07:55,550 –> 01:07:59,270
So how do we. How did you frame it? Like, how do we

1076
01:07:59,270 –> 01:08:02,960
integrate or how do we apply these? It’s. It’s. We have to get Back

1077
01:08:02,960 –> 01:08:06,760
to again, how do we weigh in the

1078
01:08:06,760 –> 01:08:10,520
balance? Like I said that, that if

1079
01:08:10,520 –> 01:08:14,200
an AI salesperson approaches me and says, yo, we can replace Linda, who you’re paying

1080
01:08:14,200 –> 01:08:17,960
$60,000 a year with a chat GPT program for 20

1081
01:08:17,960 –> 01:08:20,400
bucks a month. How do I weigh that in the balance?

1082
01:08:23,040 –> 01:08:26,000
You weigh that in the balance because it goes back to what you said before.

1083
01:08:26,160 –> 01:08:29,760
The AI spreadsheet is not culture. And a culture of one

1084
01:08:30,910 –> 01:08:34,430
is just intellectual masturbation. That’s not. There’s, there’s,

1085
01:08:34,430 –> 01:08:36,830
there’s. How do you weigh it out? Is that

1086
01:08:39,150 –> 01:08:42,750
companies to. Again, if it’s, if you just want to be by

1087
01:08:42,750 –> 01:08:45,790
yourself, all by yourself, fine.

1088
01:08:46,350 –> 01:08:49,790
But you have to recognize that you are thus

1089
01:08:51,150 –> 01:08:54,750
subverting yourself. In a weird way, you are engineering your own

1090
01:08:54,750 –> 01:08:58,500
demise. Because it’s, it’s through the reflection, it’s through the reflection

1091
01:08:58,500 –> 01:09:02,260
of the experiencer that we get

1092
01:09:02,260 –> 01:09:05,740
feedback. AI cannot give you feedback because it has been

1093
01:09:05,740 –> 01:09:08,620
designed to be optimistic.

1094
01:09:09,660 –> 01:09:13,180
And if you have something that’s designed to be optimistic,

1095
01:09:13,580 –> 01:09:17,180
it will cheer you on as you march yourself off the cliff.

1096
01:09:17,900 –> 01:09:21,020
And so the way that we have to contextualize this is that we.

1097
01:09:22,060 –> 01:09:25,420
Why is it important to keep Linda? Because we. Because

1098
01:09:25,500 –> 01:09:28,719
Linda, with Linda holds within herself a cultural

1099
01:09:28,719 –> 01:09:32,519
grammar. She, she understands that there are. That Linda’s been

1100
01:09:32,519 –> 01:09:36,359
doing the job. But Linda doesn’t just do the job. She’s existed. And

1101
01:09:36,359 –> 01:09:40,199
there’s all of these things that she will have as a reflection, as

1102
01:09:40,199 –> 01:09:43,759
an engagement, as a reaction to this, that

1103
01:09:44,719 –> 01:09:48,439
she will thus give you feedback and you. And we

1104
01:09:48,439 –> 01:09:52,239
can’t. Linda’s not preordained to be optimistic.

1105
01:09:52,860 –> 01:09:55,500
And I think it’s. That that’s a huge element of this.

1106
01:09:56,540 –> 01:10:00,220
And I also think too, that if, if

1107
01:10:00,220 –> 01:10:03,980
we’re going to just buy into any salesperson with the thing, then

1108
01:10:03,980 –> 01:10:07,020
essentially what we’re doing is we’re saying,

1109
01:10:07,580 –> 01:10:11,300
yep, all I want is 24 hour news and all I want is

1110
01:10:11,300 –> 01:10:14,620
three hour solutions. And all I want is this. I,

1111
01:10:15,260 –> 01:10:19,060
I’m just going to try to keep up with the thing that I can’t

1112
01:10:19,060 –> 01:10:22,870
possibly keep up. Right? It’s Sisyphus. It’s like I’m gonna just, I’m.

1113
01:10:22,870 –> 01:10:25,590
This is the next thing. They’ll push me four inches up the hill.

1114
01:10:26,470 –> 01:10:29,950
It’s like, oh, okay, but that’s eventually going to break and you’re going to slide

1115
01:10:29,950 –> 01:10:32,830
all the way back down. Well, don’t worry about it. We got another million dollars

1116
01:10:32,830 –> 01:10:35,909
in the chamber to buy the next guy’s thing that’s going to push us another

1117
01:10:35,909 –> 01:10:39,310
4 inches higher up the hill. And I’m satisfied with that. My

1118
01:10:39,310 –> 01:10:42,310
stakeholders are satisfied with that. Versus Right.

1119
01:10:42,950 –> 01:10:46,190
The whole thing. Linda offers you the perspective of going, hey, Sisyphus, why are we

1120
01:10:46,190 –> 01:10:49,770
pushing the stone at all? Like, why don’t we build? Why don’t we, why don’t

1121
01:10:49,770 –> 01:10:53,010
we try a different strategy here? Or why don’t we just. Why don’t we, why

1122
01:10:53,010 –> 01:10:56,490
don’t we abandon that stone and go back to a pebble maybe? Anything,

1123
01:10:56,810 –> 01:11:00,610
Anything, Anything. But I think that

1124
01:11:00,610 –> 01:11:04,170
the human element is. Yeah, the human

1125
01:11:04,170 –> 01:11:08,010
element is the ultimate experiencer. It’s the ultimate metric, it’s

1126
01:11:08,010 –> 01:11:11,530
the ultimate reflective lens that we have because

1127
01:11:11,610 –> 01:11:15,440
there’s, because we have free will and because we have free will,

1128
01:11:15,440 –> 01:11:18,720
we don’t, we don’t get to pre like it then.

1129
01:11:19,200 –> 01:11:23,040
We don’t program in Linda’s outcomes, we don’t program in Linda’s

1130
01:11:23,040 –> 01:11:26,240
feelings. Thus, if we do something really bad, Linda’s gonna go that.

1131
01:11:26,880 –> 01:11:30,640
And I don’t want to do that. Right. Oh, okay. Whereas ChatGPT

1132
01:11:30,880 –> 01:11:34,720
or Claude or Grok or any of these LLMs are gonna say,

1133
01:11:35,040 –> 01:11:38,840
oh, it sounds pretty good to me. Why don’t we just. Let’s just keep

1134
01:11:38,840 –> 01:11:42,560
going with that. Let’s go ahead. Well, actually, I’m

1135
01:11:42,560 –> 01:11:44,720
running an experiment right now with a particular

1136
01:11:46,740 –> 01:11:50,220
where I’m not giving it any thumbs up or thumbs down. I’m not giving it

1137
01:11:50,220 –> 01:11:53,980
any positive or negative input. I’m just putting prompts in. Let’s just

1138
01:11:53,980 –> 01:11:56,660
see what happens. Don’t give it a thumbs up, don’t give it a thumbs down.

1139
01:11:57,060 –> 01:12:00,740
Just see what the system does. I think

1140
01:12:00,740 –> 01:12:04,180
the, the thumbs up, thumbs down dynamic that was borrowed from the

1141
01:12:04,260 –> 01:12:08,060
Facebook social media behaviorists and now has been

1142
01:12:08,060 –> 01:12:11,570
slapped into the LLMs is a

1143
01:12:11,880 –> 01:12:15,520
course the door that allowed OpenAI to, you know, create ads on

1144
01:12:15,520 –> 01:12:19,160
its, its free tier and then to claim that it wasn’t gonna, you know,

1145
01:12:19,160 –> 01:12:22,880
scrape user, user data, which again, I don’t, I

1146
01:12:22,880 –> 01:12:26,040
don’t understand why people don’t see these things coming.

1147
01:12:26,840 –> 01:12:30,520
Because they’re not looking. You know, it’s not even a matter of not looking.

1148
01:12:30,520 –> 01:12:34,160
It’s, it’s. I could maybe forgive not looking, Dave. I could

1149
01:12:34,160 –> 01:12:37,160
absolutely do that. What I can’t forgive is

1150
01:12:38,180 –> 01:12:41,900
you walked over shards of glass for the last 30 years with the

1151
01:12:41,900 –> 01:12:45,660
Internet. Ad based Internet. Yeah. And the last 15

1152
01:12:45,660 –> 01:12:49,260
years of AD based social media, and particularly the

1153
01:12:49,260 –> 01:12:53,060
last five to 10 years of AD based social media with algorithms that

1154
01:12:53,060 –> 01:12:56,660
are creating polarization. You’ve literally just walked over glass.

1155
01:12:56,980 –> 01:13:00,660
You’re standing there with your Feet bleeding like Bruce Willis in Die

1156
01:13:00,660 –> 01:13:04,510
Hard and you’re saying, oh,

1157
01:13:04,510 –> 01:13:07,950
no, it’s fine. No, that open. That Sam Altman guy. Yeah, no, he’s,

1158
01:13:08,030 –> 01:13:11,630
he’s trustworthy. No, it’ll be fine. Well, here’s an idea for you.

1159
01:13:11,710 –> 01:13:15,070
And this is maybe taking us down the wormhole a little bit, but

1160
01:13:15,630 –> 01:13:19,390
no, the rabbit hole wormhole,

1161
01:13:19,390 –> 01:13:21,550
who knows, might be bending time space with this.

1162
01:13:23,870 –> 01:13:26,430
It very well might be that

1163
01:13:27,790 –> 01:13:30,670
there has been a coordinated effort over time

1164
01:13:31,680 –> 01:13:35,200
to continue to make us rudderless

1165
01:13:35,360 –> 01:13:38,960
without real leaders, so that we thus are now forced

1166
01:13:39,440 –> 01:13:43,200
to have to become our everything. And now that we are

1167
01:13:43,200 –> 01:13:46,960
now burdened with having to carry the weight of all

1168
01:13:47,360 –> 01:13:50,640
things because institutions have been eroded into nothing but just

1169
01:13:51,200 –> 01:13:54,840
hollowed out shells of what they used to be. Who

1170
01:13:54,840 –> 01:13:58,070
has the time, who has the energy, who has the

1171
01:13:58,070 –> 01:14:01,670
capacity to even investigate? I mean, that there are, there are. Our

1172
01:14:01,670 –> 01:14:05,510
society is very stratified into those people who are living in

1173
01:14:05,510 –> 01:14:09,230
the survivalistic style. And that is the vast majority

1174
01:14:09,230 –> 01:14:12,390
of people. You know, we are so blessed if we do not have to do

1175
01:14:12,390 –> 01:14:16,110
that. But that awards us an opportunity to be

1176
01:14:16,350 –> 01:14:20,110
observant to things because we have the, we don’t, we don’t have chaos.

1177
01:14:20,430 –> 01:14:24,190
We don’t have constant churning of demands

1178
01:14:24,430 –> 01:14:27,630
saying, I must do this to live. I must do this because my child needs

1179
01:14:27,630 –> 01:14:31,230
this. I, I’m. How am I going to make rent if we don’t have to

1180
01:14:31,230 –> 01:14:34,510
take that on? And I think that there’s a larger

1181
01:14:34,590 –> 01:14:38,390
discussion about how engineered that’s been. Well

1182
01:14:38,390 –> 01:14:42,070
then when you offer someone that just is the opiate, the new opiate of the

1183
01:14:42,070 –> 01:14:45,390
masses, people flock to it. And I think that that’s by design,

1184
01:14:45,630 –> 01:14:49,470
is that strain and pressure, pressure and strain. Break them down,

1185
01:14:49,470 –> 01:14:52,990
condition them and force them to become desperate

1186
01:14:53,640 –> 01:14:57,080
so that you can offer them something that is not a real solution.

1187
01:14:57,400 –> 01:15:01,200
But it is definitely the new shepherd to steer the flock where

1188
01:15:01,200 –> 01:15:05,040
you want them to go. And you’re

1189
01:15:05,040 –> 01:15:08,840
right, that is a rabbit hole of infinite dimensions,

1190
01:15:08,840 –> 01:15:12,280
almost like the Matrix, you know, follow the, the woman with the rabbit

1191
01:15:12,280 –> 01:15:12,840
tattoo.

1192
01:15:16,440 –> 01:15:20,210
And we’re gonna have to do an entire

1193
01:15:20,210 –> 01:15:24,050
episode on. And I hadn’t thought of

1194
01:15:24,050 –> 01:15:27,170
this till right now. So this is still in the, this is still in the

1195
01:15:27,170 –> 01:15:30,890
intellectual formation stages as both

1196
01:15:30,890 –> 01:15:34,210
Dave and I follow and pay attention to

1197
01:15:34,529 –> 01:15:36,370
all kinds of theories on the Internet.

1198
01:15:39,330 –> 01:15:43,170
And it would be really interesting

1199
01:15:43,330 –> 01:15:46,610
to do an episode just on the idea

1200
01:15:47,090 –> 01:15:50,610
that you have proposed because it, it

1201
01:15:50,610 –> 01:15:54,170
opens up a whole other plethora of

1202
01:15:54,170 –> 01:15:56,370
ideas around

1203
01:15:58,770 –> 01:16:02,130
what are levers of power, how smart or

1204
01:16:02,770 –> 01:16:05,810
not smart Elites are what

1205
01:16:05,970 –> 01:16:08,770
elite overproduction looks like,

1206
01:16:09,970 –> 01:16:12,050
particularly in Western civilization.

1207
01:16:14,470 –> 01:16:18,030
And my particular favorite topic, who’s

1208
01:16:18,030 –> 01:16:21,350
claiming that they’re adding value to society and culture while producing nothing.

1209
01:16:22,230 –> 01:16:25,990
And I’m not just talking about the Kardashians. It goes way higher than

1210
01:16:25,990 –> 01:16:29,670
that. Right? I mean, to that, to that

1211
01:16:29,670 –> 01:16:33,430
point, I think, you know, I like that idea. I. Because I think

1212
01:16:33,430 –> 01:16:37,190
what goes with these ideas, the exploration of all these theories and

1213
01:16:37,190 –> 01:16:40,980
different things, is the call to arms, the call to action. And what is the

1214
01:16:40,980 –> 01:16:44,620
call to action is that we have entered a

1215
01:16:44,620 –> 01:16:48,060
psychological, theoretical storm

1216
01:16:48,940 –> 01:16:52,780
and we need to become the beacons of hope again. Like we, we need to

1217
01:16:53,100 –> 01:16:56,900
those of us that have either the, the education, the capacity,

1218
01:16:56,900 –> 01:16:59,820
the ability, or the opportunity to

1219
01:17:00,460 –> 01:17:04,060
shine a light on even one aspect of something. I think

1220
01:17:04,060 –> 01:17:07,720
that, that, that becomes the ultimate call to action is

1221
01:17:07,720 –> 01:17:11,240
going. Not one person can talk about all things. It’s too

1222
01:17:11,240 –> 01:17:15,000
immense. It’s far too immense. But this goes into

1223
01:17:15,000 –> 01:17:18,320
this idea of how do we change the world and how are we going to

1224
01:17:18,320 –> 01:17:22,120
impact leaders to take a stand? It’s like, well, you need to

1225
01:17:22,280 –> 01:17:25,480
awaken them to the idea that you don’t need to know everything,

1226
01:17:25,960 –> 01:17:29,760
you just need to get, you know, some one thing very, very well. And then

1227
01:17:29,760 –> 01:17:33,520
you need to be able to have an arena where you can essentially present that

1228
01:17:33,520 –> 01:17:37,240
and voice that and lead through that. And thus, again, this is the bigger

1229
01:17:37,240 –> 01:17:40,960
conversation about like, what is the new American project? The new American project

1230
01:17:41,040 –> 01:17:44,760
is how do you create all of these people

1231
01:17:44,760 –> 01:17:48,400
with this profound understanding and this wisdom and this knowledge

1232
01:17:48,560 –> 01:17:52,280
throughout every generation. There’s wisdom everywhere. But how do we create them

1233
01:17:52,280 –> 01:17:56,040
as a network of nodes, thus that we can use and we can

1234
01:17:56,040 –> 01:17:59,480
rely on that experience to essentially be the

1235
01:17:59,480 –> 01:18:03,170
beacons, to be the lighthouses in the storm. Because we’ve entered into

1236
01:18:03,250 –> 01:18:06,650
this, you know, that’s not just a fog of war, it’s a fog of

1237
01:18:06,650 –> 01:18:10,050
existence. Like there’s no more, like

1238
01:18:10,530 –> 01:18:13,970
there’s no more. Seemingly like

1239
01:18:14,290 –> 01:18:17,730
life doesn’t have a path anymore.

1240
01:18:18,210 –> 01:18:21,890
Essentially we have been presented with like a seven pronged fork in the road

1241
01:18:21,890 –> 01:18:25,530
and there’s fog on all of them and none of them have any road

1242
01:18:25,530 –> 01:18:29,300
signs. It says, okay, pick your destiny and you don’t know what

1243
01:18:29,300 –> 01:18:32,980
you’re getting. And we and people are wandering into these situations

1244
01:18:32,980 –> 01:18:36,740
and, and without any of those beacons. Again, the role that the lighthouse

1245
01:18:36,740 –> 01:18:40,580
plays is to say it’s the reassurance, it’s to do

1246
01:18:40,580 –> 01:18:44,380
what, it’s to bolster you, to be courageous because you know

1247
01:18:44,380 –> 01:18:48,060
that the storm’s There, you know that the rocks are there. But by having

1248
01:18:48,060 –> 01:18:51,540
the lighthouse, it’s the. It’s the awareness, it’s the juxtaposition. It

1249
01:18:51,540 –> 01:18:54,730
allows you to navigate and find the courage to keep going

1250
01:18:55,370 –> 01:18:59,210
when you’re surrounded by essentially this metaphorical darkness that’s everywhere.

1251
01:19:00,330 –> 01:19:03,970
We are not the only people, and I want to round the corner here and

1252
01:19:03,970 –> 01:19:07,450
get ready to close. We’re not the only

1253
01:19:07,610 –> 01:19:09,530
two who are seeking to

1254
01:19:11,290 –> 01:19:14,730
either follow or be in the frame of the drifting

1255
01:19:14,730 –> 01:19:18,410
Overton window right now on all of these

1256
01:19:18,410 –> 01:19:21,530
kinds of things. This was why I do the show, right? I saw

1257
01:19:22,210 –> 01:19:25,250
the move after Covid and I thought.

1258
01:19:26,450 –> 01:19:30,250
I thought two things simultaneously. One, holy hell. This is

1259
01:19:30,250 –> 01:19:32,690
the most. And hell isn’t holy by any stretch of the imagination.

1260
01:19:33,890 –> 01:19:35,410
This is the most

1261
01:19:38,210 –> 01:19:41,650
deleterious, doesn’t even begin to describe it. Collapse of

1262
01:19:41,650 –> 01:19:44,610
leadership I’ve ever seen in real time

1263
01:19:45,330 –> 01:19:48,530
in. In my Life, in my 40 some odd years of living.

1264
01:19:50,770 –> 01:19:54,570
And that’s the first data point. And the second data point I thought

1265
01:19:54,570 –> 01:19:58,290
was business. Books clearly are not going to help us

1266
01:19:58,290 –> 01:20:02,090
with this. There has to be a deeper. A deeper thing. We need to be

1267
01:20:02,090 –> 01:20:05,530
reaching for a deeper thing. And I wasn’t the only one who was thinking that

1268
01:20:05,530 –> 01:20:08,250
at the time. There were several other folks in a lot of other different areas

1269
01:20:08,250 –> 01:20:12,090
that were thinking this. To your point about nodes, the nodes are starting

1270
01:20:12,090 –> 01:20:15,570
to link up and the nodes are starting to figure out,

1271
01:20:16,290 –> 01:20:19,170
okay, I’m 90% there with you

1272
01:20:19,890 –> 01:20:23,570
or 60% there with him or 50% there with her.

1273
01:20:24,290 –> 01:20:27,730
We can make common cause for a little bit. We

1274
01:20:28,290 –> 01:20:31,650
do this in the political realm, of course. That’s the most obvious material space.

1275
01:20:31,970 –> 01:20:35,570
But I go way down the hierarchy even further to. I’m seeing this

1276
01:20:35,570 –> 01:20:39,050
happen at, well, like that homestead

1277
01:20:39,050 –> 01:20:42,750
conference that we went to recently, right? That’s

1278
01:20:42,750 –> 01:20:46,510
a. That’s an example of the nodes connecting up and all

1279
01:20:46,510 –> 01:20:50,230
those people in that place, different skill sets, different ideas, approaching

1280
01:20:50,390 –> 01:20:53,990
homesteading, approaching a return to the myth of family,

1281
01:20:54,390 –> 01:20:58,110
a return to that structure, a return to. To your point, the

1282
01:20:58,110 –> 01:21:01,830
divine masculine and the divine feminine really working together to build the land.

1283
01:21:02,150 –> 01:21:05,510
The nodes are getting together. I’m seeing this happen.

1284
01:21:05,830 –> 01:21:09,680
I’m working on projects with people who quite frankly come

1285
01:21:09,680 –> 01:21:11,640
from a secular atheist mindset,

1286
01:21:14,040 –> 01:21:17,160
which is radically on the other end of the continuum from my mindset.

1287
01:21:17,720 –> 01:21:21,560
And yet they have wandered to a spot where they are saying,

1288
01:21:22,040 –> 01:21:25,640
hey. And I’m having a lot of these conversations over the last six weeks, hey,

1289
01:21:25,880 –> 01:21:28,280
religion might have something

1290
01:21:29,800 –> 01:21:33,600
here for us that we have maybe thrown out with the

1291
01:21:33,600 –> 01:21:37,000
bath. Water. Hey, Hasan, what do you think of this?

1292
01:21:37,880 –> 01:21:41,320
And it’s a casual conversation that’s starting to blossom like this

1293
01:21:41,720 –> 01:21:45,160
into other projects, right into places where

1294
01:21:45,320 –> 01:21:46,680
the postmodern project

1295
01:21:48,680 –> 01:21:52,360
seems to have had its victory and yet cannot

1296
01:21:52,520 –> 01:21:56,200
capitalize on it. And going back to that idea of the ouroboros eats its own

1297
01:21:56,200 –> 01:21:59,800
tail. So I’m starting to see

1298
01:22:00,370 –> 01:22:04,050
this is starting to happen. This is starting to happen. Covid scared

1299
01:22:04,050 –> 01:22:07,410
the heck out of a lot of people. Covid woke up a lot of people.

1300
01:22:07,810 –> 01:22:11,330
But it did it in a different kind of way than what we would have

1301
01:22:11,330 –> 01:22:14,690
traditionally seen as an awakening in previous eras, in previous

1302
01:22:14,930 –> 01:22:18,690
modern eras, because we are on the other side of postmodernism. We’re into

1303
01:22:18,690 –> 01:22:21,570
whatever comes after postmodernism. And

1304
01:22:22,930 –> 01:22:26,770
I assert books. And this is why I do a literature podcast, not a

1305
01:22:26,770 –> 01:22:30,610
book, business book podcast. And why I talk to people like Dave who have

1306
01:22:30,610 –> 01:22:34,210
a background in counseling and therapy and psychotherapy and

1307
01:22:34,210 –> 01:22:38,050
that kind of stuff. Versus, and I don’t mind Bam

1308
01:22:38,050 –> 01:22:40,850
Pink, he’s fine. But versus people who are coming out of the damn Pink Adam

1309
01:22:40,850 –> 01:22:43,730
Grant. I don’t talk to those folks, right? Because I don’t think they have a

1310
01:22:43,730 –> 01:22:46,970
new solution. I don’t think they see the nodes, let’s put it that way. I

1311
01:22:46,970 –> 01:22:50,090
don’t think they see that. Or if they do, they’re so scared

1312
01:22:50,810 –> 01:22:54,650
that the nodes will take away their institutional power that they’ve worked to get

1313
01:22:55,080 –> 01:22:58,000
that they just put it into a little box and they go, nope, that’s not

1314
01:22:58,000 –> 01:23:01,400
happening. Or. Or that’s really fascinating and amusing,

1315
01:23:01,720 –> 01:23:05,360
but I don’t. That. That doesn’t have any relevance. If you just had a one,

1316
01:23:05,360 –> 01:23:08,600
which is a wandering, hour and a half long conversation that has no relevance, right?

1317
01:23:09,160 –> 01:23:12,920
And so. And I think they’re missing it. I’m taking a bet. I’m taking a

1318
01:23:12,920 –> 01:23:16,680
bet and saying that they’re missing it. And I say all

1319
01:23:16,680 –> 01:23:17,480
that to say this.

1320
01:23:20,530 –> 01:23:24,330
I think the books of the doula, particularly books of the pre modernist and the

1321
01:23:24,330 –> 01:23:28,130
modernist era, are the doulas of a new birth. I. I think they are.

1322
01:23:28,130 –> 01:23:30,890
I think they’re the midwives. I think they’re the people that are going to bring

1323
01:23:30,890 –> 01:23:34,370
that. I think they’re the. They’re the objects that are going to bring that forth.

1324
01:23:36,209 –> 01:23:40,050
And. But in order for that to work, I think leaders have to

1325
01:23:40,050 –> 01:23:42,890
want it. And this is why I talk to the small business leaders first and

1326
01:23:42,890 –> 01:23:46,450
the entrepreneurs first, the. The startup founders and

1327
01:23:46,860 –> 01:23:50,380
the folks who are the folks who are running a vending cart and are

1328
01:23:50,380 –> 01:23:53,740
Managing their families. Right. The folks who are

1329
01:23:54,060 –> 01:23:57,380
leading inside of small businesses and civic

1330
01:23:57,380 –> 01:24:01,060
organizations and are having blood fights because

1331
01:24:01,060 –> 01:24:04,700
local politics have been nationalized. Right. And are trying to bring everything

1332
01:24:04,700 –> 01:24:08,380
back to the local and bring everything, bring the, bring the temperature back down and

1333
01:24:08,380 –> 01:24:11,580
bring it back down here. These are the people that we’re talking to. Right. These,

1334
01:24:11,580 –> 01:24:15,200
I believe, are our future leaders. This is the future that you’re talking

1335
01:24:15,200 –> 01:24:19,000
about. Yeah, but they must

1336
01:24:19,000 –> 01:24:22,520
want it, though. And that means abandoning preconceived

1337
01:24:22,520 –> 01:24:26,080
shibboleths. That means cognitive biases. That means deeply ingrained

1338
01:24:26,080 –> 01:24:29,400
prejudices. And they may even need to accept

1339
01:24:29,400 –> 01:24:32,320
worldviews that they find personally odious. Right.

1340
01:24:34,400 –> 01:24:38,000
And wrestle with what that may mean for their followers. Right.

1341
01:24:38,160 –> 01:24:41,920
By the way, acceptance doesn’t mean agreement. Acceptance doesn’t mean

1342
01:24:41,920 –> 01:24:45,560
that you like it. Acceptance just means you need, you see that. It’s. There

1343
01:24:45,560 –> 01:24:49,280
you go. Yeah. Okay. If I had wandered down that path, I would have

1344
01:24:49,360 –> 01:24:52,640
wound up in that same spot. That’s, by the way, real empathy.

1345
01:24:53,040 –> 01:24:56,680
That’s real empathy. Not this, not

1346
01:24:56,680 –> 01:24:59,760
this stuff that, that’s just marketed to you as empathy.

1347
01:25:01,840 –> 01:25:04,800
You. And I think that, that you talked about it in terms of a new

1348
01:25:04,800 –> 01:25:08,530
American project. I think I, I, I frame

1349
01:25:08,530 –> 01:25:12,330
it in terms of a restoration project, if I

1350
01:25:12,330 –> 01:25:15,930
may. I don’t think it’s restoring anything. I think it’s a good, I think what

1351
01:25:15,930 –> 01:25:19,610
it is, is, it’s, it’s,

1352
01:25:19,610 –> 01:25:23,450
it’s a, it’s a, it’s a full, it’s a full system. Deconstruction and rebirth.

1353
01:25:23,770 –> 01:25:27,570
Okay? Because it’s, it’s the heart of what a renaissance is. And to

1354
01:25:27,570 –> 01:25:31,050
the point of, you know, when you’re talking about COVID and these things,

1355
01:25:34,500 –> 01:25:38,260
I think what happened with, with COVID and George, Floyd and everything

1356
01:25:38,260 –> 01:25:41,940
in the last, say, five, six years specifically, and even now is that people

1357
01:25:42,340 –> 01:25:45,700
realize that it was only their faith in the

1358
01:25:45,700 –> 01:25:49,500
institution of leadership or the faith in the leadership that

1359
01:25:49,500 –> 01:25:53,140
was keeping it alive. And thus there was never leadership there.

1360
01:25:53,540 –> 01:25:57,180
It was just our blind faith in it that it

1361
01:25:57,180 –> 01:26:00,610
was there that kept it all going. I think that the

1362
01:26:00,610 –> 01:26:04,410
idea like, that we alluded to with, like that

1363
01:26:04,410 –> 01:26:07,570
you were talking to about COVID was that we

1364
01:26:07,570 –> 01:26:11,290
discovered that our kings and our queens are in

1365
01:26:11,290 –> 01:26:14,610
their shadow. It’s tyranny. They don’t care,

1366
01:26:15,009 –> 01:26:18,770
but they, they would allow us to believe whatever we want

1367
01:26:18,770 –> 01:26:22,490
to believe because it kept us at bay. And I think that that’s a huge

1368
01:26:22,490 –> 01:26:25,810
element of that. And I think that everybody in the last five years has really

1369
01:26:25,810 –> 01:26:29,150
started to wake up to the Idea that no one’s behind the wheel,

1370
01:26:30,020 –> 01:26:33,380
no one’s driving everyone, because they. They

1371
01:26:33,380 –> 01:26:36,420
themselves want the system to break down more.

1372
01:26:37,060 –> 01:26:40,340
Because the more it breaks us down, it more it puts strain on us, the

1373
01:26:40,340 –> 01:26:44,180
more it puts strain on us. It can it put. It. It leverages us

1374
01:26:44,180 –> 01:26:47,540
down. We can’t focus on what’s going on. And then the problem

1375
01:26:47,540 –> 01:26:51,220
reaction solution motif takes full effect. And I think that

1376
01:26:51,220 –> 01:26:54,740
that’s what the scary part of the LLMs are for me is that this

1377
01:26:54,740 –> 01:26:58,180
seems to be an engineered new savior.

1378
01:26:58,500 –> 01:27:01,380
This seems to be a. A

1379
01:27:03,380 –> 01:27:06,180
technocratically engineered Jesus.

1380
01:27:07,060 –> 01:27:10,060
This, this thing that’s going to lead us. And I. And when you talk about

1381
01:27:10,060 –> 01:27:13,860
what’s coming, like where do we need to go and how do we like

1382
01:27:13,860 –> 01:27:16,940
kind of wake up the nodes and how do we do this? That’s the power

1383
01:27:16,940 –> 01:27:20,020
of what the word is, the spoken word, meaning that

1384
01:27:21,060 –> 01:27:24,630
it. The words we speak is a resonance. It’s a

1385
01:27:24,630 –> 01:27:28,390
tone, it’s an energy, and it’s hard. Why people listen to the

1386
01:27:28,390 –> 01:27:31,470
pastor, why they listen to the sermon, why they listen, why they go to the

1387
01:27:31,470 –> 01:27:35,310
concert is because they’re trying to resonate with that energetic force.

1388
01:27:35,550 –> 01:27:39,350
The thing that needs, that leaders need is they need to have more opportunity

1389
01:27:39,350 –> 01:27:42,830
to listen to people who know how to capture it with language. Because

1390
01:27:43,070 –> 01:27:46,390
there’s a bell in each one of us. And it just. It doesn’t mean it

1391
01:27:46,390 –> 01:27:49,350
can’t ring again. It’s just you got to find the right frequency to make it

1392
01:27:49,350 –> 01:27:53,080
go. It’s like a tuning fork. People haven’t been speaking.

1393
01:27:53,080 –> 01:27:56,800
The right thing, the right resonance, the right frequencies have not been pushed out into

1394
01:27:56,800 –> 01:28:00,280
the ether. Thus the bells within us that activate us

1395
01:28:00,280 –> 01:28:04,080
don’t ring. And so it’s, it’s. It’s. Why I say it’s a

1396
01:28:04,080 –> 01:28:07,840
complete deconstruction and rebirth of this whole

1397
01:28:07,840 –> 01:28:11,680
thing is that we need to first identify what

1398
01:28:11,680 –> 01:28:15,520
is it that activates the leader within us, what is it

1399
01:28:15,520 –> 01:28:19,240
that activates all of these profound things for us to do

1400
01:28:19,240 –> 01:28:22,860
what? To go on this hero’s journey again. Again we have lost

1401
01:28:22,860 –> 01:28:26,500
ourselves. We have become naive to what it means to be the leader. Thus

1402
01:28:26,500 –> 01:28:29,900
we have to be humble enough and have enough awareness of our own

1403
01:28:29,900 –> 01:28:33,380
shortcomings to go. I have to be stripped, bear down

1404
01:28:33,380 –> 01:28:36,380
again. I have to come back to the origin of this. I need to go

1405
01:28:36,380 –> 01:28:40,180
on this journey again. And what is the journey? The journey is going

1406
01:28:40,180 –> 01:28:43,540
into the past, going forward in reverse, go back into the

1407
01:28:43,540 –> 01:28:47,060
classics, and thus rediscover yourself and emerge again

1408
01:28:47,660 –> 01:28:51,380
as the leader of this new dawn, this new era. That’s what

1409
01:28:51,380 –> 01:28:54,780
it feels like to me. I don’t think there’s anything worth saving

1410
01:28:54,940 –> 01:28:58,540
presently because it’s like. It’s like a. It’s like a body

1411
01:28:59,020 –> 01:29:02,780
just in rot with cancer. Right? The minds.

1412
01:29:02,940 –> 01:29:06,420
The mind’s there, but unfortunately the

1413
01:29:06,420 –> 01:29:10,140
vehicle that’s. Take that the vehicle is shutting down, right. The

1414
01:29:10,380 –> 01:29:14,140
body is completely collapsing in on itself. It’s not that we need to lose

1415
01:29:15,060 –> 01:29:18,740
to dishonor the mind, dishonor the consciousness of that who we are

1416
01:29:18,740 –> 01:29:22,580
and what we stand for. But it’s going. You’re not going to

1417
01:29:22,580 –> 01:29:25,420
do it in this body. You’re not going to do it in this. There has

1418
01:29:25,420 –> 01:29:27,780
to be some kind of transformational thing to this.

1419
01:29:31,380 –> 01:29:33,860
Several things cascading through my mind as you’re talking,

1420
01:29:34,900 –> 01:29:38,540
but the biggest thing is from the book of

1421
01:29:38,540 –> 01:29:42,380
John, in the beginning was the Word. And the Word was

1422
01:29:42,380 –> 01:29:44,460
God. And

1423
01:29:46,540 –> 01:29:50,340
the Word, such as it were. And the

1424
01:29:50,340 –> 01:29:54,140
reason why John, the apostle John writes this is because John is calling

1425
01:29:54,140 –> 01:29:57,740
back to the book of Genesis where in the beginning God created the

1426
01:29:57,740 –> 01:30:00,740
heavens and the earth and the earth was without form and void and darkness was

1427
01:30:00,740 –> 01:30:04,540
upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit or the Word, the

1428
01:30:04,540 –> 01:30:08,360
Tovu Bohu, moved across the face of the waters from

1429
01:30:08,360 –> 01:30:10,800
the King James version. By the way, the ESV has a little bit of a

1430
01:30:10,800 –> 01:30:14,000
different translation, but the idea is basically the same.

1431
01:30:14,640 –> 01:30:18,160
The Word, right. Speaking things into

1432
01:30:18,160 –> 01:30:21,840
existence. There is

1433
01:30:21,840 –> 01:30:25,320
power in the Word and the

1434
01:30:25,320 –> 01:30:28,840
biggest power in the Word. And it’s something that we started exploring last year on

1435
01:30:28,840 –> 01:30:32,640
this show, towards the end of last season. And

1436
01:30:32,640 –> 01:30:35,920
we’re digging into it more this season. The big word was.

1437
01:30:36,430 –> 01:30:40,190
Was sincerity. So

1438
01:30:40,670 –> 01:30:44,510
I’ll close with this idea. I don’t think

1439
01:30:44,510 –> 01:30:45,790
we can do any

1440
01:30:48,430 –> 01:30:51,630
to Dave’s framing. I don’t think we can do any rebuilding without hope.

1441
01:30:52,910 –> 01:30:56,750
Going back again to the Bible for a second there. The book of Nehemiah talks

1442
01:30:56,750 –> 01:31:00,590
about a man named Nehemiah. You can go read it yourself if

1443
01:31:00,590 –> 01:31:04,270
you want to, but he was tasked with, not tasked with.

1444
01:31:04,430 –> 01:31:07,870
He went and saw that the walls of Jerusalem were falling down

1445
01:31:08,350 –> 01:31:12,190
and he. He rebuilt the walls. Well, he didn’t rebuild them. He

1446
01:31:12,190 –> 01:31:15,950
got people together to rebuild the walls. After the believe was

1447
01:31:15,950 –> 01:31:19,509
after the Babylonian exile, the first time people who were. Who were coming back. The

1448
01:31:19,509 –> 01:31:23,070
myth of Return, the Nietzsche myth of Return. Right. And

1449
01:31:23,950 –> 01:31:27,750
he was beset by forces that

1450
01:31:27,750 –> 01:31:30,490
did not want him to rebuild the walls. Curious.

1451
01:31:30,810 –> 01:31:34,370
Interesting. And. And the way Nehemiah

1452
01:31:34,370 –> 01:31:37,850
framed it for his. His followers, his Jewish

1453
01:31:37,850 –> 01:31:40,810
followers, was this he said, basically,

1454
01:31:41,450 –> 01:31:45,130
you’re going to hold. And this is the. The Hasan Sorrel’s updated version again. You

1455
01:31:45,130 –> 01:31:48,050
can go read the Book of Nehemiah and find this out. You’re going to hold

1456
01:31:48,050 –> 01:31:50,570
a shotgun in one hand and a shovel in the other.

1457
01:31:53,050 –> 01:31:56,820
And at a certain point, when we’ve shoveled enough

1458
01:31:57,380 –> 01:32:01,100
and rebuilt the walls enough, we’re going to have people who will just shovel,

1459
01:32:01,100 –> 01:32:04,940
and then someone with shotguns will watch over them, because the enemies are not

1460
01:32:04,940 –> 01:32:08,740
coming to stop us from rebuilding this wall. And by the way, the

1461
01:32:08,740 –> 01:32:11,780
enemies attacked him at all levels. They did. They sent him letters. So they attacked

1462
01:32:11,780 –> 01:32:15,580
him psychologically. They attacked him with. With threats of

1463
01:32:15,580 –> 01:32:19,300
physical violence. And then, of course, they tried to, once the walls are rebuilt,

1464
01:32:19,380 –> 01:32:23,040
worm back into their positions of power. And Nehemiah,

1465
01:32:24,550 –> 01:32:27,590
for lack of a better term, along with Ezra later on, said,

1466
01:32:29,030 –> 01:32:32,790
no. Yeah, so

1467
01:32:32,790 –> 01:32:36,470
there’s a model for this that has existed in the mythical

1468
01:32:36,470 –> 01:32:39,950
past, if you will, that can be

1469
01:32:39,950 –> 01:32:43,670
applied to our current and to our future. Rebirth.

1470
01:32:44,070 –> 01:32:46,790
But the only way Nehemiah rebuilds the wall,

1471
01:32:49,360 –> 01:32:52,560
the first thing he has to do is cry over the ruins of the wall,

1472
01:32:52,560 –> 01:32:55,280
which I think we’re in that process right now. We’re in the process of crying

1473
01:32:55,280 –> 01:32:58,880
over the ruins. But then. Then

1474
01:32:58,960 –> 01:33:02,080
he dries his tears and he picks up hope,

1475
01:33:03,440 –> 01:33:07,200
and he leads with sincerity. He believes he could

1476
01:33:07,200 –> 01:33:10,880
rebuild the wall. He believes that his followers can do it. He

1477
01:33:10,880 –> 01:33:14,560
believes that he could get funded to rebuild the wall. He even believes

1478
01:33:14,560 –> 01:33:18,330
that he could defeat his enemies. And he believes it because

1479
01:33:18,890 –> 01:33:22,730
the spirit of God fills him. Right. Which

1480
01:33:22,970 –> 01:33:26,330
in our era, in our time, in our country,

1481
01:33:27,370 –> 01:33:30,450
the thing that we have to do, and I think it’s a generational thing, my

1482
01:33:30,450 –> 01:33:33,970
generation has to unite with older

1483
01:33:33,970 –> 01:33:37,730
millennials, and we’re both, by the

1484
01:33:37,730 –> 01:33:41,530
way, interestingly enough, just going back to that shadow archetype idea. Gen

1485
01:33:41,530 –> 01:33:45,240
Xers tend to be more on the. The Batman

1486
01:33:45,240 –> 01:33:49,080
shadow archetype just in general. And millennials tend

1487
01:33:49,080 –> 01:33:51,640
to be more of the hero Superman archetype,

1488
01:33:52,680 –> 01:33:56,240
broadly in general. And so you need both

1489
01:33:56,240 –> 01:33:59,560
Batman and Superman to make this work.

1490
01:34:00,200 –> 01:34:03,920
You need them together. There has to be a uniting. And

1491
01:34:03,920 –> 01:34:07,720
I think that’s where the hope comes from in this rebuilding project we’re

1492
01:34:07,720 –> 01:34:11,570
talking about. And so I have hope, but we all have

1493
01:34:11,570 –> 01:34:14,530
to be sincere about it. Yes, we all have to take jokes. We all have

1494
01:34:14,530 –> 01:34:18,210
to take ribbing. We all have to be called out when we’re being cringe or

1495
01:34:18,210 –> 01:34:21,970
being ridiculous. And. And

1496
01:34:22,290 –> 01:34:26,130
the. The Gen X Batman types out there. We. We can take it,

1497
01:34:26,210 –> 01:34:29,610
we’ve been, we’ve been having the baby boomer heroes yelling at us for a while

1498
01:34:29,610 –> 01:34:32,530
now. It’s fine. It’s, it’s, it’s fine. It’s not a problem.

1499
01:34:33,410 –> 01:34:36,910
We can handle it and be

1500
01:34:36,910 –> 01:34:40,430
okay with the millennial Superman

1501
01:34:40,430 –> 01:34:44,230
archetype wanting to be in the sun and wanting

1502
01:34:44,230 –> 01:34:47,390
to bask in the rays of being a hero, that’s fine.

1503
01:34:48,350 –> 01:34:52,150
Be the hero, be in the light. It’s okay. It’s fine. But

1504
01:34:52,150 –> 01:34:54,670
you need somebody down here who’s going to do the work on the ground, in

1505
01:34:54,670 –> 01:34:58,510
the dark. And that’s the thing I

1506
01:34:58,510 –> 01:35:02,110
see happening. But both, again, united around hope and

1507
01:35:02,110 –> 01:35:05,650
sincerity. This is something we’re exploring on this show through our books this

1508
01:35:05,650 –> 01:35:09,450
year. Final thoughts. Dave, before we close. Go

1509
01:35:09,450 –> 01:35:12,410
ahead. You have the last word. And by the way, thank you for coming on

1510
01:35:12,410 –> 01:35:14,610
the show today. This has been a great conversation.

1511
01:35:17,010 –> 01:35:20,690
I’ve enjoyed it. I think, well,

1512
01:35:21,570 –> 01:35:25,290
maybe it’s not a, maybe it’s not a thinking thing. Maybe it’s just an awareness

1513
01:35:25,290 –> 01:35:28,890
thing. I think the last five or six years, we’ve entered a

1514
01:35:28,890 –> 01:35:32,650
chapter of the human experience called the Great Noticing. And to the point you

1515
01:35:32,650 –> 01:35:36,410
were making earlier, I think everyone, not just Gen

1516
01:35:36,410 –> 01:35:40,210
X, not just millennials, but I think even Gen Z, that this

1517
01:35:40,210 –> 01:35:43,570
great noticing has now occurred. And it is,

1518
01:35:45,570 –> 01:35:49,290
we are in the collapse. We’re seeing that how every single thing that

1519
01:35:49,290 –> 01:35:53,010
we thought we had static, we could rest,

1520
01:35:53,010 –> 01:35:56,370
our, we could rely on, is actually infected.

1521
01:35:56,940 –> 01:36:00,580
And it’s, it’s, and it needs to be taken down. It needs to be re

1522
01:36:00,580 –> 01:36:04,180
envisioned, it needs to be done. And I think out of this great

1523
01:36:04,180 –> 01:36:08,020
noticing is this what I see as

1524
01:36:08,020 –> 01:36:11,580
the hope is that without Gen

1525
01:36:11,660 –> 01:36:15,340
Z, none of this matters. Because Gen Z is

1526
01:36:15,340 –> 01:36:18,940
the, they are the keystone. They are the ones that are,

1527
01:36:19,020 –> 01:36:22,700
that are in their 20s and 30s, that are, that are in this very

1528
01:36:22,700 –> 01:36:26,020
unique stage of their life path that has the

1529
01:36:26,020 –> 01:36:29,780
capacity to lay the foundations for what change will look

1530
01:36:29,780 –> 01:36:33,580
like. Because yes, we will be shifting into the

1531
01:36:33,580 –> 01:36:37,380
boomers will be going away and we’ll be doing this and next we’ll

1532
01:36:37,380 –> 01:36:41,060
obviously have our reign at the top. But I, but if we think

1533
01:36:41,060 –> 01:36:44,740
about our children’s children, it’s Gen Z that will govern that world.

1534
01:36:45,140 –> 01:36:48,900
And if we’re thinking about. So the final word with all of this

1535
01:36:48,900 –> 01:36:52,260
is that it’s, it’s, we need to capture

1536
01:36:52,670 –> 01:36:55,630
the wisdom and capture the awareness and capture the experience

1537
01:36:56,430 –> 01:36:59,910
of later millennials in Gen X. But then we need to

1538
01:36:59,910 –> 01:37:03,310
instill it and find a way to make it palatable. And

1539
01:37:03,790 –> 01:37:07,390
digestible for younger millennials and Gen Z that find

1540
01:37:07,390 –> 01:37:11,070
themselves completely disenfranchised and dejected

1541
01:37:11,070 –> 01:37:14,750
from a society because they’re too

1542
01:37:14,750 –> 01:37:18,590
far removed from the boomer experience. They’re so far removed from it

1543
01:37:18,590 –> 01:37:22,320
that again, we go back to that conversation about I, because I

1544
01:37:22,320 –> 01:37:26,040
can isolate myself and because I can surround myself in my

1545
01:37:26,040 –> 01:37:29,640
container like the boomers have, I can villainize and I

1546
01:37:29,640 –> 01:37:33,480
can simply discard what you have to say or your opinions.

1547
01:37:33,800 –> 01:37:37,600
The shift towards socialism and all these other places, that is it, that is

1548
01:37:37,600 –> 01:37:41,160
a fundamental failing of the boomer generation

1549
01:37:41,400 –> 01:37:44,680
because they’ve created a situation where all of the. Again,

1550
01:37:45,160 –> 01:37:48,720
they did, they stopped leading, they went inward. And

1551
01:37:48,720 –> 01:37:52,560
this, they left this vacuum open to the, for lack of

1552
01:37:52,560 –> 01:37:56,200
better language, the vultures and the jackals. And there’s no one to

1553
01:37:56,200 –> 01:37:59,880
protect the flock anymore. It’s just like everything’s getting picked off. And

1554
01:37:59,880 –> 01:38:02,640
I, and so my final thought would be is

1555
01:38:04,480 –> 01:38:08,320
something has to be like, we need to find the

1556
01:38:08,320 –> 01:38:12,080
way to get to capture and to archive and

1557
01:38:12,080 –> 01:38:15,700
to gather all of those pieces

1558
01:38:15,780 –> 01:38:18,900
from these older generations and we need to find a way to

1559
01:38:19,700 –> 01:38:23,460
shift it through the word to these younger generations because we

1560
01:38:23,460 –> 01:38:27,260
need to ring the bell, we need to have this resonate

1561
01:38:27,260 –> 01:38:30,940
in them and we need to give them permission to interpret it their

1562
01:38:30,940 –> 01:38:34,740
way. And I think that that essentially is what I see as being

1563
01:38:34,820 –> 01:38:38,520
this very hope filled change. We all noticed it. The

1564
01:38:38,520 –> 01:38:42,240
great noticing has happened. We, it’s undeniable at this point,

1565
01:38:42,320 –> 01:38:44,800
I think that we’re in this place of

1566
01:38:45,760 –> 01:38:49,600
we’re. It’s very delicate, it’s very. We only have

1567
01:38:49,600 –> 01:38:53,400
a matter of maybe 5 to 10 years here that we have

1568
01:38:53,400 –> 01:38:57,040
this window of opportunity to have a lasting impact on the next

1569
01:38:57,040 –> 01:39:00,480
150. And if we don’t play our cards right, it will become

1570
01:39:00,800 –> 01:39:04,490
completely overwhelmed by again,

1571
01:39:06,170 –> 01:39:09,610
transhumanistic technocratic nonsense

1572
01:39:09,930 –> 01:39:13,610
and there will be no coming back from it. And I think that’s,

1573
01:39:13,930 –> 01:39:17,610
I think that’s the. I’m optimistic about it because I can feel it too,

1574
01:39:17,610 –> 01:39:20,650
that there are things happening. But I also am,

1575
01:39:22,970 –> 01:39:24,090
I would say I’m

1576
01:39:26,730 –> 01:39:30,530
hopefully as hopefully nervous that we can actually pull it together and

1577
01:39:30,530 –> 01:39:33,610
that our, we can keep our egos in check when we’re trying to come together

1578
01:39:33,850 –> 01:39:37,650
as the older generations. And

1579
01:39:37,650 –> 01:39:41,290
with that I’d like to thank Dave once again for coming on

1580
01:39:41,450 –> 01:39:45,050
our show today. And, and well,

1581
01:39:46,490 –> 01:39:47,210
we’re out.