Les Miserables by Victor Hugo w/Jesan Sorrells & Libby Unger

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My name is Jesan Sorrells and this is the

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Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast, episode number

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194. So I’m going to

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read a little bit of the introduction to the edition

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of the book we are going to read today.

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And. Well, I

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wanna. I wanna make some points that are from

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this particular introduction that I think are relevant

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for our conversation today.

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This book that we’re going to cover today is the culminating work

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of the author’s long career. It was published in

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1862, when the author was 60. An instant success

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with the public, the book has stood since then as a masterpiece of fiction, both

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for the emotional intensity of its dramatic story and for a richness that

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defies any simple description. Undoubtedly, readers

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come to the book for the deeply engrossing characters and stay on, as

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the author himself predicted, for the wider social and

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historic panorama. The political timing

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of the publication of this book was auspicious. Isolated by

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exile from the empire of Napoleon iii, whose authoritarianism was

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relaxing as his effectiveness and popularity were waning,

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the author found a ready audience for his progressive,

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politically progressive fervor. Despite his long

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list of works in poetry, fiction and drama, the author had been most widely known

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before this novel as a public figure, defender of the national conscience.

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And now homesick for his home country, but unwilling to accept

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the amnesty offered by the emperor he despised, he was eager

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for a chance to remind his home country of. Of his presence.

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A friend reported to him that all of the major. All of the people

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in the major city that this book is focused on were

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raving about the book during its publication.

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As for the critics, the author clearly took it

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as a compliment that his liberal views had enraged the reactionary, the

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conservative, Catholic and the Bonapartist journals. The

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gratifying enthusiasm of the younger critics, however, was not unanimously sustained. For the

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book had appeared outside of its time when he began

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writing it in 1845. The romantic traditions of intense sentiment

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and crusading idealism were prevalent.

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And I’m going to down a little bit. And

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yet, rising above the fluctuations of literary criticism, the book has always

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retained a powerful hold on the public. And writers have continued to turn to this

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author and. And this book for inspiration. Diverse authors

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such as Arthur Rambaud, Stephane

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Mallarme and Paul Claudel were influenced by this giant

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of romanticism. Andre Gaday called him the

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greatest master of images and sonorities, of symbols and

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language forms in all of French

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literature. Close quote.

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As for me today on the show, my interaction

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with this book is very

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interesting. My engagement with this book is very interesting.

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And you know, the reality is that my engagement with

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the books and the topics that we cover on this show covers,

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ranges, covers and ranges all over the place, right.

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Sometimes I’ve seen the movie, right, that the books that we are covering

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come from. Sometimes I’ve been to the theater show and sometimes I’ve even watched a

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trailer for the movie based on the book before even reading the book. And

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sometimes I come to some books virginally. I have no previous knowledge of the author,

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the book, or even any derivative works generated from the book.

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And this is how most people are these days and how most people have approached

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books through the long 20th century,

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from movies to musicals. The book we are covering today has never

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been out of print since it was Originally published in 1862,

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which it stands alongside another book that we covered, last Episode,

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Ben Hur, as never being out of print. It

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has inspired people to act in ways that they never would have before. And it

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meets criteria in that it activates readers,

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it inspires conversations, and it generates a need for

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action from folks. And the

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author, who we’ll talk about in a little bit and who was just mentioned there

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in the introduction, I think I suspect probably

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did all of this intentionally.

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Today we are going to begin our conversation

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about a massive book and we are going

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to try to glean what we can from it and

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apply it to our real lives. This book lies

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at the headwaters of the most popular and highest grossing stage musicals

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of all time. It has been turned

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into movies, it has been turned into a television show.

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It’s been everywhere. And again, this book has never been out of print. It’s

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original publication in 1862. Today we’re going

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to be covering. Whoop, there we go. Victor

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Hugo’s Les Miserable.

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Leaders, let us take to the barricades.

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The only thing we have to lose is our

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cowardice.

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And joining me on this journey today and back for the first

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time this season is our co host who’s a

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little jet lagged and she’s joining us from her vacation at an

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undisclosed location, which will remain undisclosed, but she is. Jet lag folks.

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Libby Unger. How are you doing today, Libby?

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Good. Bonjour.

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Well, let’s lay out. Okay, yeah, let’s go ahead. Let’s get into

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it. So talk to us, I about

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this book. Talk to us about the impact of this book. Talk to us about

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what this book means for you. It means to you.

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You have a lot of familiarity with this book. You go to

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France, you, you are native, you’re not native, but you’re a French

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speaker. Talk to me about, talk to

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us about this book. What does this book mean to Libby Unger?

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Your introduction and discussing,

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you know, how you come about, you know, books in

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particular, you know, intel like re. Re

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rereading this and preparing for

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was more the. The stage version of Les Miserable

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Miserables and the soundtrack to it

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and going back to the revolutionary times,

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you know, of France and. And such.

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That appeal, the artistic appeal was. Was

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embedded young around this book and the value in it

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and then

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semi awareness of the French history.

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But it wasn’t until I started preparing for

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this in. In detail and the questions you teed

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up around made me really think more about

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like the history of France, you know, from you know,

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their, their revolution to their final, you know, to the

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current republic. I mean I really was

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unaware of the detail and how

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fraught with wars, you know, France was.

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You have the two different monarchs that this,

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that Hugo dealt with plus the two different

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Napoleonic regimes. I, you know,

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honestly I just had broad strokes of a French Revolution and

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Napoleon and a king and you know, know a few of those

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but not the details and the, and

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that each generation, you know that

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was born, you know, 1790 on.

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Was fought with. Was fraught with a war. Yeah. For the

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monarch to ret you to get back in power. Napoleon back

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monarch Napoleon. And then you finally get the

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republic that was somewhat modeled after the US

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but yeah, I’m actually

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looking forward to the topics that you’ve teed up to start to

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start talking about the heroism and the moral.

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The characters that bring up different moral.

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Issues for us to be concerned about as well as models for us to think

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about. So yeah, I’m excited for it. I

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do have the same. Did you have the same. Aha. With respect to

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history? I know you’re more of a history buff. Yeah, no, that’s.

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Yeah, that’s a great question. Yes,

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I did. So one of the big things that kind of

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jumps out to you at the beginning of Les Mis is. And

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I’m going to kind of shorten it here when I refer to the book.

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But the big thing, one of the big things that jumps out to you about

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this book right from the get go is

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how much of a handle Victor Hugo has on to your point, French

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history. Like he has a handle on exactly

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the path of development.

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Right. Because he,

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he’s surrounded by it. Right. He’s surrounded by people who remembered,

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you know, Napoleon who remembered that history. And so the.

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Those stories in that lived history from probably would have been

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parents and grandparents for Hugo and people

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in his, in his neighborhoods and in his communities. That’s one of the very

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first things that jumps off to you, jumps off the page to you as you

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read Les Mis. The other

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thing is you begin to realize and, and this is really what came home for

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me just how,

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just how scared everybody else of the European continent

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was of France at that time.

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And it’s easy to kind of not easy

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as an American. And, and this is, you know, the

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250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. This year

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we will be talking about the Declaration and the independent Declaration of Independence in the

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Constitution with our De Rolo Nixon. That’s going to be coming out on,

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on July 1st, ahead of July 4th. And I will very specific

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things to say about, about our Constitution, our Declaration of independence at

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250. But it’s

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easy to be sort of as an American to kind of look at the French

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Revolution kind of like Thomas Jefferson did and either fall in love with it

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and then wonder at its excesses at the end, the Reign of terror and all

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of that, or to take the view

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that the British did, which is, which was

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at the time. You keep that crap over there. We don’t want to hear you

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keep it across the Channel. And don’t you dare go come over here. We’ll come,

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we’ll come over there and do with you. Right. That’s how. Right. Which

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we. Which they did. Exactly. But don’t you dare bring that garbage over

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here. Don’t you run that up here.

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And so it’s easy to take either the American perspective or the British

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perspective, but to absolutely understand from a European

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continental perspective how powerful that revolution

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was and how much it rattled the cages of everybody on that continent.

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That jumps off to you. That jumps off the pages to you of Les Mis,

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Rob, because Hugo knew, he understood all of this.

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And it’s fascinating to sort of realize that

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the, the, the potential, I think

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the potential in the next 25 years for the French to run that continent again

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is, is right there. It’s right there. The English

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aren’t going to do it. The Germans have been denied

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and who else is there? The Spanish are in, are never. They’ve never been interested

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in running the continent. They’ve just never been interested in being in charge. And

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the Italians, God bless them, they don’t have it in them.

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So who’s left? Well, it’s the French. And so

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it’s going to be interesting to watch I think over the next 25 years

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some of that, that

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not fear, but Some of

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that, yeah. Well,

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I guess maybe fear is a good word. Some of that fear will I think

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begin to drip back into, into folks

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on the continent. I don’t know if I have a good hold on this, but

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it was something that definitely jogged in my brain reading Les Mis, reading this

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book. It

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as you see some of the European trends, you know,

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they’ve been trying to infiltrate the US over the last,

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you know, couple of decades or more. But

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I never had a full appreciation

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for the empiric nature

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of the French until

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you see, until just going into greater detail about,

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you know, those 100 years, you know, 1780s

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to 1880s

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and then seeing your, the history over the last couple

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decades, you know, the more liberal

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progressive thinking that’s coming from, you know, you,

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Europe entering, you know, entering our

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ways and.

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Does make me think that they, you know, they’re almost like

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the Chinese to some degree, that they have a long term

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perspective of where they sit in history,

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you know, so it, it, it’ll be if

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it, it is interesting. Economic

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security is one of the key, key themes

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that I see as to how

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you gain power or you fight off,

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you fight off invading resources through economic

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security and that when there’s economic

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instability, that’s when these,

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the monarchs and dictatorships, you’ll come in.

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And someone who has a long view of history

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knows that if they create insecurity,

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that creates room for that new

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leadership to come in. And now that

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it sounds, you know, if you were living back

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in the times of the mid Middle Ages and the revolution

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and the enlightenment, etc. That’s not far fetched to think

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about because poverty and economic

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insecurity was the way of the world. Correct? Right. It

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wasn’t until industrialization and the US

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kind of dominated around, you know, and creating economically

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independent and viable industries and

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countries that we stopped seeing more being so prominent.

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So it’s very interesting

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that over the last 15 or

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20 years divisiveness and ins

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and trying to create economic instability

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is being introduced into what was a stable

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system. And you have to wonder if it’s being done intentionally

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because that’s the only way the empires

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can take back their power.

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Well, and you, you. Well, let’s. Let me. There’s several things

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you brought up there and I want to hit on all of them and I

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think Les Mis hits on all of them. Let me do, let me go back

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and start. Oh my gosh, this book hits on all of it. And the poverty

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piece is one of the other things that really jumped out to me. But I

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want to, I want to keep my powder dry on that for just a second

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because that’s, I think, critical to understanding this book.

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So. Yeah, so

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Victor Hugo, right? Let’s talk a little about him. So he

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was a. Just like the author of Ben Hur, Lou

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Wallace. He was a

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romantic writer, capital R

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romanticist. And there was something that occurred to me

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actually on Saturday, which I’ll tell talk about a little bit,

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but he was. We, we in our Post World War

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II consensus, we don’t understand what the power of

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romanticism and we don’t understand anymore

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sort of how that, that deeply impacted

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authors such as Hugo and Lew Wallace. He

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was born in 1802, so talk about, you know, the revolution literally

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occurred like the French Revolution literally occurred like

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what, 10, 15 years before he was born.

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So he was born in 1802. He died in 1885.

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He was a giant of French letters.

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Not only did he write Les Mis, he also wrote

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the Hunchback of Notre Dame, which, you know, the, the

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publication of that book actually encouraged

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the French to, to restore that cathedral because it became such

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a, such, such a tourist magnet.

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He wrote poetry, he wrote essays, he was a playwright,

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he was a journalist, he was a politician,

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and he was a human rights activist. Now when we talk about human rights

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activism, I don’t want, I don’t want the listeners to think of this in

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terms of the kind of human rights activism that

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we see in our time. This wasn’t cynical

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activism on, on, on Hugo’s part.

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He wasn’t trying to grift or hustle. He actually believed

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that just like folks coming out of the French Revolution

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believed that you could remake the world, you could actually have

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utopia on earth, and that it was

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within human beings hands in the 18th,

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sorry, in the 19th century to be able to do that. He

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genuinely believed that. And that came about because of his

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romanticism. He wrote plays like

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Cromwell and dramas Hernani. He produced more

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than. I didn’t know this until I went and looked at his Wikipedia profile, but

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he produced more than 4,000 drawings in his lifetime

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and was an abolitionist around

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slavery and around capital punishment. There have been

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accusations of racism thrown at Hugo, but they don’t

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stick because he actually like moved his position around on a lot of

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things, in particular in relation to the

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French shenanigans in Algeria. Algeria

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and in, in Northern Africa during his time.

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And I’m just going to quote directly from here. His opposition to absolutism and his

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literary stature established him as a national hero. Hugo

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died on 22 May, in 1885, aged 83,

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he was given a state funeral in the Pantheon of Paris, which was attended by

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over 2 million people.

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That’s ridiculous. 2 million people showed up for a writer.

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Hemingway, eat your heart out. At that time, which 2 million

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00:20:14,809 –> 00:20:17,010
people? Yeah, the population was what?

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Yeah, like Paris, right? Yeah, you know, significant.

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Significant. The dude was just.

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He breathed hard and, like, the French moved.

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You’ll never see a guy like that ever again in letters. That won’t ever

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happen again. Like, the twilight of the writer started occurring at the

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end of the 20th century and. And the

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sun. I won’t say the sun is set on the writer, but.

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But the kind of discussions we’re having right now around writing and around the art

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00:20:50,750 –> 00:20:54,510
of writing. One of the things I’ve postulated on the show about the

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death of the novel, I do actually think the novel’s dead. I

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actually do. I don’t think writing’s dead. I don’t think the book is

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dead. But I think the novel as a thing that a

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book delivers is dead. I think that’s

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00:21:09,230 –> 00:21:12,630
DOA now, because you can do so many other different things. You can go watch

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00:21:12,630 –> 00:21:16,340
the book or see the streaming show or nowadays, dump the

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thing into the AI and generate something that looks just as good. And so

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the novel, the fictionalized account of.

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The fictionalized account that draws emotions from people

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and drives them to action, the kind of thing that Hugo

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loved and was romantic about.

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I kept thinking about Hegel reading about

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Hugo. And it’s similar from

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both. From a writing perspective. I know Hegel

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00:21:50,410 –> 00:21:53,890
was not a fiction writer, but, you know,

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poet, you know, political.

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They both recognized what motivates

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humanity and what demoralizes

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humanity. And that was what was coming through

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from a Hugo perspective is his own

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ability to evolve and then sacrifice

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for what he knew was right. You know, that’s what

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Les Mis is all about with the different characters, is about

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the power of redemption and doing what’s right.

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Just at a human level, even if it may cost you power.

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I’m. Power and prestige. Yeah,

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yeah. But it just about. But what I really loved is the whole story is

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about redemption. And if you

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believe in someone and you tell them that they can

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redeem, like the bishop did,

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right, that the right soul, the

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00:22:59,560 –> 00:23:03,280
right person will receive that and say, I need to do the.

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I need to pay it forward and do the right thing.

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And that is a reflection, I think, of the. Of

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Hugo’s belief in the redempt, you know, in the evolution and

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redemption. Redemption, redemptive

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ability of a Human. Hegel’s kind of that way

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too from a self evolution

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perspective. And we like to see

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people or I know I’m inspired by those who

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00:23:34,300 –> 00:23:38,140
choose the do the hard thing because it’s the right

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00:23:38,140 –> 00:23:41,660
thing. And that is what movements will.

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00:23:42,620 –> 00:23:44,540
Populist movements will come behind.

365
00:23:46,779 –> 00:23:49,580
Yeah. And that

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his characters, the characters in Les Mis are fully formed

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people. They’re not even, even Javert, even the

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00:23:58,350 –> 00:24:02,070
villain. Right. Is a fully formed human

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being. Yes. Not a, he’s not a one dimensional

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avatar standing in for something else. And this is another

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reason I say the novel is probably not. Probably is.

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Is. Is. Is is. If not dead on life support.

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Because we don’t have writers who see people as

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fully formed multi dimensional

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individuals running around in the world. Instead writers. Now that’s why we

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00:24:27,980 –> 00:24:31,620
have to go back to historical. The Mark Andreessen

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00:24:31,620 –> 00:24:35,220
philosophy is. I don’t read anything recent. I, I read what’s

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00:24:35,220 –> 00:24:38,780
endured. But the, the piece I,

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00:24:38,780 –> 00:24:42,500
I hit, I, I finally realized like what it was about

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00:24:42,500 –> 00:24:45,900
both Hagel and Hugo that

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00:24:47,740 –> 00:24:51,420
resonated with me in particular is they kept trying to find,

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00:24:51,740 –> 00:24:55,560
they kept trying to meant what they said.

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00:24:56,680 –> 00:25:00,280
Right. Like first believed in the monarch

384
00:25:00,280 –> 00:25:04,040
and you know, and was willing to take compensation

385
00:25:04,040 –> 00:25:07,840
for his riding with the monarch. And then the monarch disappoints and

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00:25:07,840 –> 00:25:11,440
so then he’s pro Napoleon and believes Napoleon is going to

387
00:25:11,440 –> 00:25:15,080
do the right thing for their French. And then he’s disappointed,

388
00:25:15,400 –> 00:25:19,080
you know, and he tries to put his, you know, belief

389
00:25:19,080 –> 00:25:22,910
again into those big institutions. They all fail

390
00:25:22,910 –> 00:25:26,350
him, you know, which we all, you know, if you’re awake

391
00:25:26,910 –> 00:25:30,710
at all, you realize the institutions are for the betterment of the

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00:25:30,710 –> 00:25:34,270
institutions and not the individual. And so

393
00:25:34,910 –> 00:25:38,670
you ultimately need to go within and say what is the right thing

394
00:25:38,670 –> 00:25:42,310
to do from a moral perspective and

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00:25:42,310 –> 00:25:45,950
live that way. That’s what Hagel did. That’s what Hugo’s message

396
00:25:45,950 –> 00:25:49,710
was. And you know, and you know me, that’s my message from

397
00:25:49,710 –> 00:25:53,550
a leadership perspective as well. Well, and I think so

398
00:25:53,550 –> 00:25:57,350
to your point, like I said, I was, I

399
00:25:57,350 –> 00:26:01,030
was having a conversation today with somebody else, business conversation. And one of the points

400
00:26:01,030 –> 00:26:04,390
that I made to him is that

401
00:26:04,950 –> 00:26:08,750
we used to have people. That applies here. We used to have people who,

402
00:26:08,750 –> 00:26:12,510
who spoke with and led with

403
00:26:12,510 –> 00:26:16,340
moral authority. Right. We talked a little bit about this on our Malcolm

404
00:26:16,340 –> 00:26:19,980
X episode probably a year and a half ago, maybe two years ago. Now

405
00:26:20,140 –> 00:26:23,980
one of the fascinating things about Malcolm X is you could disagree with where his

406
00:26:23,980 –> 00:26:27,620
morals came from, but he had moral authority. He spoke with moral

407
00:26:27,620 –> 00:26:31,260
authority. Matty Ross, the Character in

408
00:26:31,900 –> 00:26:33,820
the Charles Porter’s book True Grit.

409
00:26:36,460 –> 00:26:39,660
If you watch the Joel and Ethan Cohen

410
00:26:40,280 –> 00:26:44,080
remake of True Grit, the way that character is portrayed in

411
00:26:44,080 –> 00:26:47,720
there is a lot closer to the Matty Ross of the book than in the

412
00:26:47,720 –> 00:26:51,160
John Wayne movie. Right, The John Wayne Matty Ross, but the girl

413
00:26:51,400 –> 00:26:55,160
in the John Wayne version and the, and the girl in the Joel and

414
00:26:55,160 –> 00:26:58,720
Ethan Cohen version, Maddie, both of them have

415
00:26:58,720 –> 00:27:02,200
rock ribbed morality. They speak from. They speak with moral

416
00:27:02,200 –> 00:27:05,970
authority. Right, they act with moral authority. Malcolm X

417
00:27:05,970 –> 00:27:09,010
acted. Exactly, exactly.

418
00:27:09,810 –> 00:27:12,610
Malcolm X, you know, spoke with moral authority.

419
00:27:13,650 –> 00:27:17,490
Matty Ross speaks with and was written as a character with moral

420
00:27:17,490 –> 00:27:21,130
authority. And Victor Hugo, to your

421
00:27:21,130 –> 00:27:24,010
point here, Victor Hugo wrote as a

422
00:27:24,010 –> 00:27:27,290
romanticist who was in love with, to your point,

423
00:27:27,290 –> 00:27:31,090
institutions. And I love how you frame this. The institutions meant what they

424
00:27:31,090 –> 00:27:34,650
said, but someone had to be the moral authority behind that.

425
00:27:34,970 –> 00:27:37,930
And so he turned his pen to basically,

426
00:27:38,570 –> 00:27:42,250
basically forcing the institutions to be the thing they said they were going

427
00:27:42,250 –> 00:27:46,050
to be. And you see this also in Ben

428
00:27:46,050 –> 00:27:49,530
Hur. So Lou Wallace, when Lou Wallace writes about

429
00:27:49,850 –> 00:27:53,690
Masala and he writes about Judah Ben Hur, the reason why

430
00:27:53,690 –> 00:27:57,370
Judah Ben Hur is on a mission of revenge that

431
00:27:57,370 –> 00:28:00,730
winds up in a chariot race to kill Messala, to kill the Roman.

432
00:28:01,380 –> 00:28:04,500
The reason why he’s on that mission is because

433
00:28:06,180 –> 00:28:09,700
he believes that the Roman Empire did him wrong

434
00:28:09,700 –> 00:28:13,500
and someone should tell them no and, and someone

435
00:28:13,500 –> 00:28:16,580
should draw a line. Now, what’s interesting about Ben Hur,

436
00:28:17,139 –> 00:28:20,420
which you don’t see in this book, because Victor Hugo, and we’re going to talk

437
00:28:20,420 –> 00:28:23,140
about the bishop here in a minute. I’m glad you brought that up. We’re going

438
00:28:23,140 –> 00:28:25,780
to talk about the bishop here in a minute. But in Ben Hur,

439
00:28:29,390 –> 00:28:33,110
there ex. The. The characters experience what in biblical terms is

440
00:28:33,110 –> 00:28:36,670
called a theophany. That’s when God basically, or the divine

441
00:28:36,830 –> 00:28:40,590
reaches into history and says, hey, I’m here, and then steps back out.

442
00:28:40,590 –> 00:28:44,350
Right? And so Lou Wallace structured the interactions with Jesus

443
00:28:44,350 –> 00:28:47,950
as this theophany that was happening, happening about four or five times

444
00:28:47,950 –> 00:28:51,710
in, in the book. Hugo does exactly the same thing,

445
00:28:52,840 –> 00:28:56,640
but he does it with, and this is the key difference. He does

446
00:28:56,640 –> 00:29:00,320
it with social reform. And he believes that

447
00:29:00,320 –> 00:29:03,720
social reform is the way in which

448
00:29:04,040 –> 00:29:07,880
romantically held social reform, by the way, is the way in which

449
00:29:08,280 –> 00:29:12,080
you will establish moral authority and to your point, get

450
00:29:12,080 –> 00:29:15,800
the institutions to what they. To live up to what they say.

451
00:29:17,890 –> 00:29:21,530
And I think this is hugely important for leaders to understand. And it runs

452
00:29:21,530 –> 00:29:24,690
across numerous books that we’ve covered on this show.

453
00:29:25,810 –> 00:29:28,850
And there’s also A sense of heroism here, which I want to revisit sort of

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00:29:28,850 –> 00:29:31,650
at the end that goes along with this and I think is missing from a

455
00:29:31,650 –> 00:29:35,450
lot of human rights activism in our time. There’s no heroism involved in

456
00:29:35,450 –> 00:29:39,170
it. It’s more like trolling or gaslighting or

457
00:29:39,170 –> 00:29:42,890
just, you know, throwing grease in. Or not. Sorry, grease. Throwing sand

458
00:29:42,890 –> 00:29:46,720
in gears to. To make a problem. Not because

459
00:29:46,720 –> 00:29:49,920
you actually want to see things change. Although people mouth the words of wanting to

460
00:29:49,920 –> 00:29:53,640
see things change, but they don’t actually romantically believe it. And

461
00:29:53,640 –> 00:29:56,800
this is the disjuncture that I think, you know,

462
00:29:57,120 –> 00:30:00,800
Les Mis lays out so. Lays out so so nakedly.

463
00:30:00,800 –> 00:30:04,280
Right. As a book. Yeah. It’s not just the

464
00:30:04,280 –> 00:30:07,760
vision statement, it’s the actual embodiment of the

465
00:30:07,760 –> 00:30:11,580
vision. Correct. And you know, it’s not

466
00:30:11,580 –> 00:30:15,260
just virtue signaling and then patting me on the back

467
00:30:15,260 –> 00:30:17,380
because I say the right thing. It’s actually

468
00:30:18,900 –> 00:30:22,700
demonstrating that what you state is actually going to be

469
00:30:22,700 –> 00:30:26,380
the good thing. Right, right, right.

470
00:30:26,380 –> 00:30:30,220
And do good for society. Right. Well,

471
00:30:30,220 –> 00:30:33,900
and the French also, because they had the revolution, they had this idea

472
00:30:33,900 –> 00:30:36,260
and this is the part of the other part of it that rocked the continent.

473
00:30:36,670 –> 00:30:40,390
They had this idea that. And this is hugely important in the

474
00:30:40,390 –> 00:30:44,070
America. America. Sort of. Not sort

475
00:30:44,070 –> 00:30:47,590
of. America’s Constitution and Declaration of Independence

476
00:30:47,590 –> 00:30:51,350
allowed us to avoid the excesses of the French Revolution. Because that could have

477
00:30:51,350 –> 00:30:55,110
very easily happened here. Yes. Oh my God.

478
00:30:55,110 –> 00:30:58,910
It could have very easily happened here. Because our passions are the same as.

479
00:30:59,070 –> 00:31:02,510
The same as. French Republic. Yeah, exactly.

480
00:31:05,340 –> 00:31:09,100
Know what? Do you have a republic if you can keep it. Right. Okay.

481
00:31:12,460 –> 00:31:14,620
What the French Revolution proved

482
00:31:16,060 –> 00:31:19,780
in very naked stark terms was that.

483
00:31:19,780 –> 00:31:23,500
And this is where liberty and egalitae and fraternity come

484
00:31:23,500 –> 00:31:26,940
from that if the king,

485
00:31:27,580 –> 00:31:30,940
who is set up as the avatar of God on earth can be gotten,

486
00:31:31,760 –> 00:31:35,360
then everything’s open to everybody. If we. The second

487
00:31:35,520 –> 00:31:39,120
they beheaded that king like that was it, game on.

488
00:31:39,520 –> 00:31:42,800
And that’s what all of the rulers of Europe got. They got that

489
00:31:42,800 –> 00:31:46,480
viscerally. That was the message that they sent out.

490
00:31:46,560 –> 00:31:49,600
And then to top it off, which

491
00:31:50,000 –> 00:31:53,600
Victor Hugo talks about this, we’re going to talk about Napoleon today. Then to top

492
00:31:53,600 –> 00:31:57,440
it off, you have Napoleon, which. That’s a whole other kind of. I mean that’s

493
00:31:57,440 –> 00:32:00,640
a. That’s the second half back half a conversation. That’s a whole other kind of

494
00:32:00,640 –> 00:32:03,980
thing. I’m fascinated by Napoleon. That dude was real

495
00:32:03,980 –> 00:32:07,700
interesting. But you. That

496
00:32:07,700 –> 00:32:11,340
was like a one, two punch to the continent of Europe. And

497
00:32:11,740 –> 00:32:15,460
I don’t think the European. I don’t think European powers have

498
00:32:15,460 –> 00:32:19,220
ever really fully recovered from that. They haven’t.

499
00:32:19,220 –> 00:32:22,820
They’re still struggling. Yeah. That America or the

500
00:32:22,820 –> 00:32:25,660
US benefited from not having their history,

501
00:32:27,180 –> 00:32:31,020
you know, because we did kind of Greenfield what a republic

502
00:32:31,020 –> 00:32:34,490
was, you know. No kidding,

503
00:32:35,050 –> 00:32:37,530
right? Yeah, yeah.

504
00:32:39,050 –> 00:32:42,530
Let me, let me go into, let me go into Les Mis here. I want

505
00:32:42,530 –> 00:32:45,730
to bring up the point because Libby, we talked about the bishop and this is,

506
00:32:45,730 –> 00:32:48,330
this is a good time to sort of bring this up.

507
00:32:50,090 –> 00:32:53,530
So the impact of

508
00:32:55,850 –> 00:32:59,670
religion on the French mindset,

509
00:32:59,670 –> 00:33:02,910
specifically Catholicism on the French mindset.

510
00:33:03,230 –> 00:33:06,950
And I’m talking the pre. Well, no, even down to today, but the

511
00:33:06,950 –> 00:33:10,670
Pre World War II French mindset, the. The

512
00:33:10,670 –> 00:33:14,230
19th century conception of Catholicism, the 19th century

513
00:33:14,230 –> 00:33:17,870
conception of religion and the.

514
00:33:17,870 –> 00:33:21,630
And religion as an estate in France re. I mean,

515
00:33:21,630 –> 00:33:25,200
redounds through this book. And so I want to

516
00:33:25,200 –> 00:33:29,040
bring up some ideas here. I want to point

517
00:33:29,040 –> 00:33:32,320
out some things about monsignor

518
00:33:32,960 –> 00:33:36,800
bienvenue, chapter 12, book one of

519
00:33:36,800 –> 00:33:38,000
Les Miserables.

520
00:33:40,640 –> 00:33:44,360
And I quote, there is almost always a squad of young abbes around

521
00:33:44,360 –> 00:33:48,000
a bishop, just as there is a flock of young officers around a general. By

522
00:33:48,000 –> 00:33:51,440
the way, one other point just want to make if you read this book, the,

523
00:33:51,440 –> 00:33:55,120
the turns of phrase in here are amazing. Victor

524
00:33:55,120 –> 00:33:58,840
Hugo, again, amazing writer. It flows really

525
00:33:58,840 –> 00:34:02,600
fast. You’ll be. You’ll be 50 pages in. You won’t even realize where the time

526
00:34:02,600 –> 00:34:06,440
went back to the book.

527
00:34:06,440 –> 00:34:10,000
They are what the charming St. Francis de Saul somewheres calls white

528
00:34:10,000 –> 00:34:13,600
billed priests. Every profession has its aspirants who make up the

529
00:34:13,600 –> 00:34:17,310
cortege of those who are at the summit. No power is without its

530
00:34:17,310 –> 00:34:21,150
worshipers, no fortune without its court. The secrets of the future

531
00:34:21,150 –> 00:34:24,870
revolve around the splendid present. Every capital, like every general,

532
00:34:24,950 –> 00:34:28,630
has its staff. Every influential bishop has his patrol of undergraduates,

533
00:34:28,710 –> 00:34:32,310
cherubs who make the rounds and keep ordering the bishop’s palace and who

534
00:34:32,310 –> 00:34:36,030
stand guard over the monsignor’s smile. To

535
00:34:36,030 –> 00:34:39,670
please a bishop puts a foot in the stirrup

536
00:34:39,750 –> 00:34:43,160
for a sub deacon. Each must make his own way. The

537
00:34:43,160 –> 00:34:46,160
apostolate never disdains the cannocate.

538
00:34:47,280 –> 00:34:50,880
And as elsewhere, there are top brass in the church. There are rich miters,

539
00:34:51,120 –> 00:34:54,880
there are bishops who stand well at court, wealthy, well endowed, adroit, accepted in

540
00:34:54,880 –> 00:34:58,080
the world. Knowing how to pray, no doubt, but also knowing how to ask favors

541
00:34:58,080 –> 00:35:01,560
with few scruples about making themselves the viaduct of advancement for a whole

542
00:35:01,560 –> 00:35:05,280
diocese. Hyphens between the sacristy and diplomacy.

543
00:35:05,440 –> 00:35:09,240
More abbes than priests, prelates rather than bishops. Lucky are they

544
00:35:09,240 –> 00:35:12,840
who get near them. Men of influence as they Are they reign

545
00:35:12,840 –> 00:35:16,600
about them, upon their families and favorites. And upon all these young men

546
00:35:16,600 –> 00:35:20,080
who please them. Fat parishes, sinecures, archdeaconates,

547
00:35:20,480 –> 00:35:23,920
chaplaincies and cathedral functions. Steps towards a

548
00:35:23,920 –> 00:35:27,680
bishop’s dignities. In advancing themselves, they advance

549
00:35:27,680 –> 00:35:31,440
their satellites. It is a whole solar system in motion. The rays of their

550
00:35:31,440 –> 00:35:35,280
glory, their retinue purple, their prosperity scatters its crumbs to

551
00:35:35,280 –> 00:35:38,830
those behind the scenes. In the guise of nice little promotions. The larger the

552
00:35:38,830 –> 00:35:42,550
diocese of the patron, the larger the curacy of the favorite. Or for the

553
00:35:42,550 –> 00:35:45,950
favorite. And then there is Rome. A bishop who could become an

554
00:35:45,950 –> 00:35:49,710
archbishop. An archbishop becomes cardinal, leads you to the conclave.

555
00:35:49,790 –> 00:35:53,630
You enter into the rota. You have the pallium there you are an auditor,

556
00:35:53,710 –> 00:35:57,270
you are a chamberlain, you are a monsignor. And from the

557
00:35:57,270 –> 00:36:01,070
grandeur to eminence there is only a step. And between eminence and holiness

558
00:36:01,070 –> 00:36:03,230
there is nothing but the smoke of a ballot.

559
00:36:05,240 –> 00:36:09,000
Every cowl may dream of the tiara. In our day, the priest is the

560
00:36:09,000 –> 00:36:12,440
only man who could regularly become a king. And what a king. The supreme king.

561
00:36:13,240 –> 00:36:17,040
So what a nursery of aspirations is a seminary. How many blushing

562
00:36:17,040 –> 00:36:20,880
choir boys, how many young abbes have the ambitious dairy maids pail

563
00:36:20,880 –> 00:36:24,480
of milk on their heads? Who knows how easily ambition disguises

564
00:36:24,480 –> 00:36:28,200
itself under the name of calling, possibly in good faith, and deceiving itself

565
00:36:28,200 –> 00:36:30,510
in sanctimonious confusion.

566
00:36:31,470 –> 00:36:35,230
Monsignor. Beyond venue, a humble, poor private person was not counted among

567
00:36:35,230 –> 00:36:38,910
the rich miters. This was plain from the complete absence of young priests around

568
00:36:38,910 –> 00:36:42,190
him. We have seen in that in Paris he did not fit in. No glorious

569
00:36:42,190 –> 00:36:45,990
future dreamed of alighting upon this solitary old man. No budding ambition was

570
00:36:45,990 –> 00:36:49,710
foolish enough to ripen in his shadow. His cannons and his grand vicars were good

571
00:36:49,710 –> 00:36:53,470
old men, rather common, like himself, and like him, immured in that diocese

572
00:36:53,470 –> 00:36:57,310
from which there was no road to promotion. And they resembled their

573
00:36:57,310 –> 00:37:00,830
bishop. With this difference that they were finished and he was perfected.

574
00:37:02,140 –> 00:37:05,900
The impossibility of getting ahead under Monsignor Bienvenue was so plain

575
00:37:05,900 –> 00:37:09,580
that, fresh from the seminary, the young man ordained by him procured

576
00:37:09,580 –> 00:37:12,860
recommendations to the Archbishop of A or of Auch and left

577
00:37:12,860 –> 00:37:16,380
immediately. For after all, we repeat, men like advancement.

578
00:37:16,620 –> 00:37:20,420
A saint addicted to abnegation is a dangerous neighbor. He

579
00:37:20,420 –> 00:37:24,220
is very likely to infect you with an incurable poverty, a stiffening of

580
00:37:24,220 –> 00:37:27,420
the articulations necessary to advancement, and in fact, more

581
00:37:27,420 –> 00:37:30,880
renunciation than you would like. And men flee from this

582
00:37:30,880 –> 00:37:34,440
contagious virtue. Hence the isolation of Monsignor

583
00:37:34,440 –> 00:37:38,240
Bienvenue. We live In a sad society, succeed.

584
00:37:38,640 –> 00:37:42,240
That is the advice which falls drop by drop from the overhanging

585
00:37:42,640 –> 00:37:43,520
corruption.

586
00:37:47,040 –> 00:37:47,680
Damn.

587
00:37:53,920 –> 00:37:55,280
Unbelievable. Look,

588
00:37:58,300 –> 00:38:02,020
I was listening to Orson Welles on the Third man the

589
00:38:02,020 –> 00:38:05,860
other day. I love that old radio show. And he was running

590
00:38:05,860 –> 00:38:08,140
around trying to be a.

591
00:38:09,580 –> 00:38:13,300
Some type of. He’s trying to scam some people, of course, because

592
00:38:13,300 –> 00:38:17,060
he’s hustling. And he was portraying himself not

593
00:38:17,060 –> 00:38:20,900
as a religious person, but as a, like a, like an Amir or like a

594
00:38:20,900 –> 00:38:24,540
viceroy or some, some sort of royalty. Right. Something with a sir on

595
00:38:24,540 –> 00:38:28,350
it. And then like some little kid basically upends

596
00:38:28,350 –> 00:38:31,710
his entire scam and it turns out that this little kid is actually an earl,

597
00:38:32,350 –> 00:38:35,790
which is great. It’s a great. It was a great little thing.

598
00:38:36,110 –> 00:38:39,590
And, and so we’ve covered the Third man on this show earlier this, this, this

599
00:38:39,590 –> 00:38:42,110
season. You should go check out that episode if you haven’t listened to that already.

600
00:38:42,510 –> 00:38:45,630
And one of the lines in it at the end when Orson Welles does a

601
00:38:45,630 –> 00:38:49,390
little wrap up, he says, as Harry Lime, he

602
00:38:49,390 –> 00:38:52,830
says, the wages of sin are not nearly high enough to justify the overhead.

603
00:38:54,660 –> 00:38:57,860
And, and as I read that piece,

604
00:38:58,260 –> 00:39:01,700
great line that. Oh my God, it’s so good. Wells was so good.

605
00:39:01,940 –> 00:39:05,740
I think of the bishop here. And not because the

606
00:39:05,740 –> 00:39:09,220
bishop was sinful, actually, the way Victor Hugo sets up the

607
00:39:09,220 –> 00:39:11,940
bishop. He’s the only more

608
00:39:12,100 –> 00:39:15,860
genuinely moral man in the

609
00:39:15,860 –> 00:39:18,900
entire corpus of the book. Yeah.

610
00:39:21,230 –> 00:39:23,550
Monsignor Bienvenue. Is the.

611
00:39:25,230 –> 00:39:28,750
Is he the. How would you frame this, Libby? Is he the pebble that pushes.

612
00:39:29,390 –> 00:39:33,070
That pushes Jean Valjean down. Down the, down the.

613
00:39:33,150 –> 00:39:36,830
Down the mountain? Or is he. Or is

614
00:39:36,830 –> 00:39:40,350
he the. The hand that pushes him? Is he the pebble or the hand?

615
00:39:40,430 –> 00:39:43,150
Yeah, it’s the hand. It’s the slight. Okay. You know,

616
00:39:43,390 –> 00:39:46,950
adjustment that’s just needed to put you on course.

617
00:39:47,430 –> 00:39:51,110
You know, he had two paths to take. Right,

618
00:39:51,270 –> 00:39:54,630
right, right. And he just eased him to the right

619
00:39:54,790 –> 00:39:58,550
versus Right. Right. Yeah, right. And

620
00:39:58,550 –> 00:40:02,310
the soft touch. Just a soft touch. And he did it in. But he couldn’t

621
00:40:02,310 –> 00:40:06,150
have done it without having the moral authority. And he. And he sets

622
00:40:06,150 –> 00:40:08,310
up the bishop because this is what I mean. He sets up the monsignor. This

623
00:40:08,310 –> 00:40:10,920
is who he starts with. He opens the book with Devon Senior, like you would

624
00:40:10,920 –> 00:40:14,440
think the book would open with Jean Valjean and Javert and

625
00:40:14,440 –> 00:40:18,120
Fentin and all these characters and their tragedy and da, da, da. No,

626
00:40:18,120 –> 00:40:21,960
he starts with the moral authority. He starts with

627
00:40:21,960 –> 00:40:25,720
the moral guy. And you know, he,

628
00:40:25,880 –> 00:40:29,680
he ab. To his point about abnegation, he totally

629
00:40:29,680 –> 00:40:33,360
and completely. He makes him

630
00:40:33,360 –> 00:40:36,680
not Right for this world. That’s what it is. Like he made the bishop. Right.

631
00:40:36,680 –> 00:40:40,450
Not right for this. And that’s the only

632
00:40:40,450 –> 00:40:42,090
way, I think Hugo could

633
00:40:45,530 –> 00:40:48,650
justify, I guess, that morality.

634
00:40:52,170 –> 00:40:55,970
Because all these other characters are, to his point, they’re

635
00:40:55,970 –> 00:40:59,290
ambitious and scheming and

636
00:40:59,290 –> 00:41:02,890
grasping. Even Jean Valjean scheming and

637
00:41:02,890 –> 00:41:06,480
grasping. Right. Even cassette. Right. Like

638
00:41:06,480 –> 00:41:10,040
scheming and grasping. Right. Grabbing for something, whether that’s love

639
00:41:10,440 –> 00:41:14,240
or attention or whatever their

640
00:41:14,240 –> 00:41:17,240
perspective of legal righteousness is. I’m looking at you, Javert.

641
00:41:17,880 –> 00:41:21,680
But like all these other characters are grasping and scheming and ambitious. But not the

642
00:41:21,680 –> 00:41:24,920
monsignor. He doesn’t want

643
00:41:24,920 –> 00:41:28,600
anything. And you can’t do anything with a man like that.

644
00:41:30,690 –> 00:41:33,650
No, that’s the problem. Yeah, that’s. Yeah, that’s why

645
00:41:35,250 –> 00:41:38,970
they try. Yeah. You know, they don’t want

646
00:41:38,970 –> 00:41:42,770
someone who believes in, like, life after death, who isn’t a fear,

647
00:41:42,930 –> 00:41:46,690
who isn’t afraid of death, you know, who isn’t afraid of having

648
00:41:46,690 –> 00:41:50,370
nothing. Right. Because, you know, because you can’t control that person.

649
00:41:50,850 –> 00:41:53,010
Right. But I think

650
00:41:54,450 –> 00:41:58,040
you would have a. Yeah. Without. Without the

651
00:41:58,040 –> 00:41:59,080
decision to.

652
00:42:02,360 –> 00:42:06,160
To get, you know, to give Valjean, you know, the candlesticks and,

653
00:42:06,160 –> 00:42:09,720
you know, and all that. You wouldn’t have that decision point

654
00:42:10,120 –> 00:42:13,640
so clearly demarked. It wasn’t even decision point, it was an action.

655
00:42:14,120 –> 00:42:17,920
You know, you saw Beljan just starting to, you know, well,

656
00:42:17,920 –> 00:42:21,560
you believe I’m a thief. I’m a thief. You know, I have no other

657
00:42:21,560 –> 00:42:25,200
choice. You’ve given me. You’ve given me no other choice. You know, and we hear

658
00:42:25,200 –> 00:42:29,020
about this for, you know, low income, you know, low income, you

659
00:42:29,020 –> 00:42:32,580
know, people, when. People when no one has a belief in you

660
00:42:33,300 –> 00:42:36,660
and you’re told you’re a thief and you’re not, you know, and

661
00:42:37,060 –> 00:42:40,580
just, you know, 20 years for, you know, in prison

662
00:42:40,580 –> 00:42:44,420
for taking. Stealing a slice of bread. And then,

663
00:42:44,420 –> 00:42:48,220
yeah, it was a five year sentence that turned into 20 because you kept trying

664
00:42:48,220 –> 00:42:51,860
to escape, you know, and then afterwards,

665
00:42:52,020 –> 00:42:55,250
you know, you hear this with convicts now, you know,

666
00:42:55,410 –> 00:42:59,130
afterwards you have a yellow card that says, I’m a thief. I’m a

667
00:42:59,130 –> 00:43:02,810
thief. And everyone just treats you a

668
00:43:02,810 –> 00:43:05,650
certain way until that one person

669
00:43:06,370 –> 00:43:09,730
doesn’t and sees the glimmer in you and sees the hope

670
00:43:10,209 –> 00:43:13,970
and gives you the chance to redeem yourself and, you

671
00:43:13,970 –> 00:43:17,330
know, and not even with him, but just in life. Yeah,

672
00:43:18,290 –> 00:43:21,940
I talk a lot about small moments can change

673
00:43:21,940 –> 00:43:25,500
the trajectory and it’s in another person’s life,

674
00:43:25,820 –> 00:43:29,540
and this is an example of that. Except my moments

675
00:43:29,540 –> 00:43:33,100
are even smaller. It’s giving a person, you know,

676
00:43:33,260 –> 00:43:36,700
someone who maybe is in line in front of you at the grocery store who’s

677
00:43:38,700 –> 00:43:42,460
being extremely mean to, to those around them

678
00:43:42,460 –> 00:43:46,300
and you just give them a smile, maybe let them go in front of you

679
00:43:47,040 –> 00:43:50,800
and you have no idea why that person is the way they are.

680
00:43:50,800 –> 00:43:54,480
It could just be they’ve had a really bad day or they were just

681
00:43:54,560 –> 00:43:58,280
fired. But by showing them a

682
00:43:58,280 –> 00:44:01,720
moment of grace, you might knock them out of their

683
00:44:01,720 –> 00:44:05,360
moment and they return to who they,

684
00:44:05,440 –> 00:44:09,160
you know, who they are in their soul for the remainder of the

685
00:44:09,160 –> 00:44:12,940
day. And that may be that they treat their children that,

686
00:44:12,940 –> 00:44:15,940
you know, better at the end of the day than they would have if they

687
00:44:15,940 –> 00:44:19,540
come home still angry and feeling like the world is out to get them.

688
00:44:19,940 –> 00:44:23,300
But regardless, you know, this is one of those small

689
00:44:23,300 –> 00:44:26,820
moments where someone saw him as other than a

690
00:44:26,820 –> 00:44:30,500
thief and gave him the grace

691
00:44:31,620 –> 00:44:34,980
to show him, you know, that, you know, to show,

692
00:44:35,300 –> 00:44:38,980
show him grace. And with that he made the decisions to invest

693
00:44:38,980 –> 00:44:42,470
and build a business and then give, you know,

694
00:44:42,630 –> 00:44:45,910
help others to prosper as much as you can

695
00:44:46,230 –> 00:44:49,830
in those days. But it’s still that same idea, so

696
00:44:49,830 –> 00:44:53,510
small without this moment of grace. And it is interesting that

697
00:44:53,510 –> 00:44:56,950
has to be given by someone of the church. But if that,

698
00:44:57,350 –> 00:45:01,070
it probably has the most power because you can make the

699
00:45:01,070 –> 00:45:03,990
assumption that they had no alternative, you know,

700
00:45:05,030 –> 00:45:08,350
agenda. Yeah. To use all of our common

701
00:45:08,350 –> 00:45:11,350
vernacular. Right. Yeah. Yeah. In ways that

702
00:45:12,120 –> 00:45:15,720
things are being positioned nowadays, like he was giving grace, he did the right

703
00:45:15,720 –> 00:45:19,560
thing. And for the rest of his life he did the right thing

704
00:45:21,080 –> 00:45:24,760
because that’s who, who he was, you know, like he wouldn’t

705
00:45:24,760 –> 00:45:28,560
let someone hang wrongly for being thought of, of being

706
00:45:28,560 –> 00:45:31,880
him, you know. Right. Yeah. But, well,

707
00:45:32,760 –> 00:45:36,360
that whole tussle that he goes through, that long dark

708
00:45:36,360 –> 00:45:39,970
night of the soul, right. Where he’s, you know, trying to decide what is he

709
00:45:39,970 –> 00:45:43,650
going to do. The way Hugo describes the,

710
00:45:43,890 –> 00:45:47,650
that moral not dilemma,

711
00:45:47,890 –> 00:45:51,010
that moral wrestling, it put me in mind of,

712
00:45:53,090 –> 00:45:56,210
put me in mind in the book of Genesis when Jacob

713
00:45:56,450 –> 00:46:00,130
wrestles with the angel. Right. Or, or in

714
00:46:00,130 –> 00:46:03,730
some cases, you know, depending upon what your, what your translation of

715
00:46:04,560 –> 00:46:08,080
the Bible is, you’ll see that he wrestled with God or he wrestled with

716
00:46:09,120 –> 00:46:12,960
Jesus. Right. You know, it was Jesus. Anyway, so he’s

717
00:46:12,960 –> 00:46:16,280
wrestling and it, it put me in. Or Jean

718
00:46:16,280 –> 00:46:19,600
Valjean’s wrestling put me in mind of that

719
00:46:20,480 –> 00:46:23,920
moment. And I do think. No, I think I don’t. So Hugo,

720
00:46:24,560 –> 00:46:28,360
you know, knew the Bible, he knew all the corpus of that and

721
00:46:28,360 –> 00:46:31,510
how that impacted and engaged with

722
00:46:31,750 –> 00:46:35,190
literature. He also knew classic literature. He knew all of the things, right?

723
00:46:35,430 –> 00:46:38,990
And so he brought all of that to the table here in Les Mis. But

724
00:46:38,990 –> 00:46:42,550
then he turns it into something

725
00:46:42,550 –> 00:46:44,470
very specific and very,

726
00:46:46,070 –> 00:46:49,670
very French in a, in a, in an environment

727
00:46:50,070 –> 00:46:53,870
where. And this is the other thing. Now I want to talk about poverty in

728
00:46:53,870 –> 00:46:57,520
an environment where poverty that we

729
00:46:57,520 –> 00:47:00,960
can’t imagine is just the standard.

730
00:47:00,960 –> 00:47:04,320
Exactly. Yeah. Like, so the

731
00:47:04,320 –> 00:47:06,960
Thenardines, right? The, the, the,

732
00:47:07,920 –> 00:47:11,440
the family that Fentine leaves cassette with.

733
00:47:13,680 –> 00:47:17,280
Unbelievable to me. Like, I, I’m reading this and I’m going.

734
00:47:18,640 –> 00:47:21,360
I mean, I know these things happen today. I’m not naive.

735
00:47:22,850 –> 00:47:26,130
But it wasn’t, it’s not the norm today. It’s not the norm today,

736
00:47:26,450 –> 00:47:30,210
right? Like if, if you’re reading this. And actually it’s interesting. So as I

737
00:47:30,210 –> 00:47:33,730
was reading this book because it’s taken me a few months to sort of

738
00:47:34,370 –> 00:47:37,250
go through it. Started reading this back in February,

739
00:47:38,370 –> 00:47:42,170
in, in March, I went to a, went

740
00:47:42,170 –> 00:47:45,130
to a speech and debate tournament. My daughter is involved in speech, debate. I went

741
00:47:45,130 –> 00:47:48,640
to one of her tournaments and one of the parents there

742
00:47:48,960 –> 00:47:52,400
is from France and she saw me

743
00:47:52,400 –> 00:47:56,200
reading Les Mis and she came over

744
00:47:56,200 –> 00:47:58,880
and she was like, oh, yeah, I read that. I did the audio version of

745
00:47:58,880 –> 00:48:01,440
that book because I couldn’t, I couldn’t read it. And I was in my car,

746
00:48:01,520 –> 00:48:04,880
whatever, and I, and she’s like, I’m from France.

747
00:48:05,680 –> 00:48:08,640
And then she’s like, that book is amazing. And so we had a whole hour

748
00:48:08,640 –> 00:48:12,240
long conversation about the book and I asked her this

749
00:48:12,240 –> 00:48:15,930
question. I said, as a French speaker and as a person, you

750
00:48:15,930 –> 00:48:19,610
know, French native, what does this book mean to you? And

751
00:48:19,610 –> 00:48:23,410
she said, this book is the history. It’s part of the history of our country.

752
00:48:23,410 –> 00:48:27,210
It is the history of our country. And she said, she was, she’s in

753
00:48:27,210 –> 00:48:30,730
her, she’s in her 60s. She said that the way

754
00:48:30,730 –> 00:48:34,450
that, the way that the poverty and the social

755
00:48:34,530 –> 00:48:38,330
climate is, is, is structured. She said, oh yeah, we learned about all this in

756
00:48:38,330 –> 00:48:41,950
history. I mean, that’s just the way things were,

757
00:48:42,350 –> 00:48:45,470
you know. And she said it so casually.

758
00:48:47,870 –> 00:48:51,630
And I was struck by, as I often am when I talk to people

759
00:48:51,630 –> 00:48:55,150
from other countries who are not Americans, who are now, who have now

760
00:48:55,150 –> 00:48:58,470
chosen to live in America. And then we wind up talking about French politics. By

761
00:48:58,470 –> 00:49:02,030
the way, she’s not a fan of the current prime minister and is very

762
00:49:02,030 –> 00:49:05,710
desirous of voting against him, but she’s like, I have to go back to France.

763
00:49:05,710 –> 00:49:07,630
I have to live there for like three months so I could vote. And she’s

764
00:49:07,630 –> 00:49:09,950
like, it’s not worth it. Like, just leave. She’s like, she’s just trying to get

765
00:49:09,950 –> 00:49:13,610
her family out. She’s just leave. Man’s an idiot. Just go. Anyway, point

766
00:49:13,610 –> 00:49:16,570
is, I’m struck once again by

767
00:49:18,730 –> 00:49:19,130
how,

768
00:49:24,170 –> 00:49:27,690
How the things that, that folks from other countries

769
00:49:27,770 –> 00:49:30,170
just casually accept as the way of life.

770
00:49:31,450 –> 00:49:35,210
We’ve basically said we don’t have to

771
00:49:35,210 –> 00:49:38,900
do that and so we’re going to go off and do something different.

772
00:49:38,900 –> 00:49:41,980
You’re also seeing this with like the Europeans that are coming over and folks from

773
00:49:41,980 –> 00:49:45,620
other countries as well that are coming over to the, the World cup venues

774
00:49:45,620 –> 00:49:49,220
now with the FIFA World cup going on. Oh my God, this is like the

775
00:49:49,220 –> 00:49:52,819
World Cup. Honestly, like this is the

776
00:49:52,819 –> 00:49:56,500
best thing that could have happened to America at this

777
00:49:56,580 –> 00:50:00,420
time in a while. Like not like

778
00:50:01,060 –> 00:50:04,820
Europeans and folks from all over other places, all over the world

779
00:50:04,820 –> 00:50:08,460
are coming to America and interacting with Americans and, and

780
00:50:08,460 –> 00:50:11,900
seeing that it’s not all of what you see on TikTok videos

781
00:50:12,620 –> 00:50:16,220
and nonsense from the media. Like

782
00:50:16,380 –> 00:50:20,140
80% of the people in America are not what you see

783
00:50:20,140 –> 00:50:23,580
online. You know, like

784
00:50:23,899 –> 00:50:27,020
I watched, I mean I’m not watching any of the games. I saw a game

785
00:50:27,020 –> 00:50:30,780
in a restaurant and one of the venues was Philadelphia and I was sitting

786
00:50:30,780 –> 00:50:33,660
there with my wife and I was joking, I was working with my wife. I

787
00:50:33,660 –> 00:50:37,260
was like, oh yeah, it’s Philadelphia. Philly fan gotta like, Philly fan gotta like put

788
00:50:37,260 –> 00:50:40,740
on a show now because Philadelphia is

789
00:50:41,140 –> 00:50:44,980
the worst sports city. Yes, I did say it. Sorry to all my fans

790
00:50:44,980 –> 00:50:48,820
of Philadelphia, but it is the worst sports city on the east coast. Yeah. Bar

791
00:50:48,820 –> 00:50:51,220
none. Like it beats Boston by a country mile

792
00:50:52,740 –> 00:50:55,860
because intellectual enough to make that

793
00:50:57,700 –> 00:51:01,460
this Philly fan don’t care. I mean the story. Yeah,

794
00:51:01,620 –> 00:51:05,280
yeah. You know, like it’s, I think it’s one of two.

795
00:51:06,480 –> 00:51:10,080
Philadelphia, the Philadelphia Eagle Stadium is one of two stadiums in the NFL where there’s

796
00:51:10,080 –> 00:51:13,880
an actual like jail. What’s the

797
00:51:13,880 –> 00:51:17,440
other one? I think it’s the Raiders. Raiders. I think it’s the Raiders. Yeah, I

798
00:51:17,440 –> 00:51:19,560
think it’s the Raiders. The Raiders is the other one. I might be wrong on

799
00:51:19,560 –> 00:51:23,120
this. You can, it can be fact checked on this. But yeah, Philly has a

800
00:51:23,120 –> 00:51:26,960
lockup like of course. And nobody,

801
00:51:26,960 –> 00:51:30,380
nobody goes, oh no, that’s weird. That’s out. No, no, that actually that

802
00:51:30,380 –> 00:51:34,220
tracks, that tracks with that town. No, that’s fine. But, but you know, you

803
00:51:34,220 –> 00:51:37,860
see the World cup venues and you see these international players

804
00:51:37,940 –> 00:51:41,660
and these international visitors and America is

805
00:51:41,660 –> 00:51:45,140
just being America. We’re just hanging out Doing the thing we’ve always done.

806
00:51:45,700 –> 00:51:49,540
And they are here finding out on a visit

807
00:51:52,420 –> 00:51:56,140
we’re not what their politicians tell you, what the

808
00:51:56,140 –> 00:51:59,700
media tells you. But I actually think it’s analogy also

809
00:51:59,860 –> 00:52:03,450
for the big US cities and people who live in those cities,

810
00:52:03,770 –> 00:52:07,450
if they were to actually start participating beyond their,

811
00:52:08,650 –> 00:52:12,170
beyond where they live, they might actually see how great America is

812
00:52:12,170 –> 00:52:15,970
too. Exactly, exactly, exactly. It

813
00:52:15,970 –> 00:52:19,210
is super fabulous. And it’s always takes those

814
00:52:19,930 –> 00:52:23,570
wake up calls, you know, for people to go, oh my

815
00:52:23,570 –> 00:52:26,990
gosh, like if I actually just get out of, you know,

816
00:52:27,150 –> 00:52:30,950
the news and the politicians that go travel and talk to people, it’s

817
00:52:30,950 –> 00:52:34,710
like, wow, the world isn’t, you know, isn’t even half as

818
00:52:34,710 –> 00:52:38,550
bad. Or, you know, you could, you

819
00:52:38,550 –> 00:52:42,189
could, you could read Les Mis and watch how Hugo

820
00:52:42,189 –> 00:52:45,550
describes the grinding poverty that creates the tragedy

821
00:52:45,790 –> 00:52:49,590
and go, oh my God, yes, we have poor people in this

822
00:52:49,590 –> 00:52:53,330
country, but we would never, I won’t say we

823
00:52:53,330 –> 00:52:57,090
would never. The level of outcry that

824
00:52:57,090 –> 00:53:00,810
there would be if we had

825
00:53:00,810 –> 00:53:04,370
a situation like what happened with Fantine, like her

826
00:53:04,370 –> 00:53:07,969
entire arc of her life. The level of

827
00:53:07,969 –> 00:53:11,090
outcry against that would be

828
00:53:11,090 –> 00:53:14,890
unbelievable if that were happening now. And

829
00:53:14,890 –> 00:53:18,730
I’m not saying that, that we’re better. I’m saying to Libby’s point,

830
00:53:18,730 –> 00:53:22,250
it’s just, it’s about, it’s about the evolution of civilization. Evolution of civilization,

831
00:53:22,250 –> 00:53:25,990
yes. Right. But, yes, but what I actually found really interesting when you

832
00:53:25,990 –> 00:53:29,590
were conveying what the woman who left her country

833
00:53:29,750 –> 00:53:33,550
and came to the US was saying is like, well, that’s just the

834
00:53:33,550 –> 00:53:36,790
way it is. It also reminds me, you know,

835
00:53:37,430 –> 00:53:41,150
that’s, you know, the French history is, that’s

836
00:53:41,150 –> 00:53:44,390
the way it is. But there’s a level of kind of

837
00:53:44,390 –> 00:53:48,070
acceptance that’s okay. And you know, and

838
00:53:48,390 –> 00:53:52,110
I want to double click on that from a nuanced perspective because I

839
00:53:52,110 –> 00:53:55,950
remember when LA was starting to seek crime rates, you know,

840
00:53:55,950 –> 00:53:59,550
rise quite a bit. And this was

841
00:53:59,550 –> 00:54:03,270
like 2021, 2022. And one of the famous actors

842
00:54:03,270 –> 00:54:06,430
is like, it’s a city. Like, that’s what happens,

843
00:54:07,390 –> 00:54:10,190
you know, so when you have extremely low expectations,

844
00:54:11,230 –> 00:54:14,870
you start to dismiss, you

845
00:54:14,870 –> 00:54:18,430
know, the things that need to be hap. You know, expectations

846
00:54:18,510 –> 00:54:21,990
for people. That’s what I think about like these, you know, the homeless

847
00:54:22,070 –> 00:54:25,510
issue and, you know, and that I

848
00:54:25,750 –> 00:54:29,550
bring up a lot in California because to

849
00:54:29,550 –> 00:54:32,470
me it’s immoral to allow

850
00:54:33,670 –> 00:54:36,870
like, you know, people to live like that for their own,

851
00:54:37,430 –> 00:54:41,070
you know, for their own being. It’s not a gift to them

852
00:54:41,070 –> 00:54:44,390
because they want to just be Partying and living outside.

853
00:54:45,350 –> 00:54:46,070
It’s actually

854
00:54:48,720 –> 00:54:52,400
inhuman to not wish better conditions for them,

855
00:54:52,400 –> 00:54:56,160
to not provide better conditions for them and to ignore,

856
00:54:56,800 –> 00:54:59,520
you know, that we can actually help them

857
00:55:00,480 –> 00:55:04,280
by, you know, by bringing them inside and cleaning them and

858
00:55:04,280 –> 00:55:08,000
giving them proper food and helping them with mental issues and that

859
00:55:08,000 –> 00:55:10,640
type of thing. So it’s just kind of this.

860
00:55:12,490 –> 00:55:14,330
It’s just kind of the laissez faire

861
00:55:16,170 –> 00:55:19,450
taken to a far extreme because you don’t have higher

862
00:55:19,450 –> 00:55:22,650
expectations of humanity.

863
00:55:23,050 –> 00:55:25,290
Well, let me. Okay, let me ask you this question.

864
00:55:26,650 –> 00:55:29,770
We just watched the LA mayoral race occur.

865
00:55:30,090 –> 00:55:33,050
Yes. And I’m not going to get into

866
00:55:33,610 –> 00:55:37,290
the race itself. I’m not going to get into any of that. That’s

867
00:55:37,290 –> 00:55:40,750
not the thing that we do on this show. Going to worry about it. Right.

868
00:55:41,150 –> 00:55:43,550
Instead, what I’m going to do is I’m going to ask this question,

869
00:55:44,910 –> 00:55:47,630
out of the candidates who won

870
00:55:49,390 –> 00:55:53,230
the race for LA Mayor, not the run the

871
00:55:53,230 –> 00:55:57,070
race, run the primary to run for LA Mayor, out of

872
00:55:57,070 –> 00:56:00,390
the candidates that are in that. That democratically

873
00:56:00,390 –> 00:56:04,030
controlled city. Okay. Who is

874
00:56:04,030 –> 00:56:07,720
going to have the moral authority to say,

875
00:56:09,240 –> 00:56:13,080
as Hugo has done in Les Miz through his characters,

876
00:56:14,280 –> 00:56:18,000
that this cannot stand is. I don’t see Karen Bass

877
00:56:18,000 –> 00:56:21,400
doing that. No, you see,

878
00:56:21,720 –> 00:56:24,680
you see talking points

879
00:56:25,480 –> 00:56:28,760
sure. Don’t reflect what would actually

880
00:56:29,480 –> 00:56:33,180
help individuals like affordability. Like, I

881
00:56:33,180 –> 00:56:36,260
hear affordability. Right. But I don’t tell you,

882
00:56:37,060 –> 00:56:40,740
I don’t hear a recognition of what’s causing it to not be

883
00:56:40,740 –> 00:56:44,540
affordable. Right. Being addressed. It’s more

884
00:56:44,540 –> 00:56:48,340
about we’ll just tax more so that we can

885
00:56:48,340 –> 00:56:52,100
buy versus we have building codes that are

886
00:56:52,100 –> 00:56:54,580
extremely expensive. Like, you know.

887
00:56:55,620 –> 00:56:59,340
Yeah. There’s one famous podcaster, Adam Carolla, who is

888
00:56:59,340 –> 00:57:02,420
why it’s showing the rebuilding of a home down on the beach.

889
00:57:03,380 –> 00:57:06,580
And that home was on stilts, just like Venice’s

890
00:57:08,900 –> 00:57:12,060
for, you know, for 70. It was on stilts for 70 years. And the only

891
00:57:12,060 –> 00:57:15,380
thing that took it out was a fire, but not the water

892
00:57:17,060 –> 00:57:20,820
and all that. And now that home has to be

893
00:57:20,820 –> 00:57:24,620
built. The foundation for that home costs

894
00:57:24,620 –> 00:57:27,540
like a couple million dollars. And it’s all pillars

895
00:57:28,830 –> 00:57:32,630
that are, you know, pillars that are being steel pillars that

896
00:57:32,630 –> 00:57:35,790
have to go into the ground. And then, you know, there’s things that they’re concerned

897
00:57:35,790 –> 00:57:39,590
about from a rain from a water perspective, which I get. But it was

898
00:57:39,590 –> 00:57:43,310
good enough from a safety perspective with the pillars

899
00:57:43,470 –> 00:57:47,070
with the wood pilings. So when you

900
00:57:47,070 –> 00:57:50,510
don’t hear. When you just hear talking points, which is what.

901
00:57:51,150 –> 00:57:54,270
When I watch Hugo’s evolution,

902
00:57:54,970 –> 00:57:58,010
it’s the difference between you Know, the monarch and

903
00:57:58,090 –> 00:58:01,330
Napoleon keep saying, this is what we’re going to do for you, but not

904
00:58:01,330 –> 00:58:05,170
delivering. When you have basins, when you have base needs that

905
00:58:05,170 –> 00:58:08,890
need to be met and they keep promising, but they’re not who

906
00:58:08,890 –> 00:58:12,090
goes, like the government isn’t going to be the answer.

907
00:58:12,490 –> 00:58:15,610
And when I listen to, and you know, the

908
00:58:16,250 –> 00:58:19,810
single government that’s controlled, been controlling that state, hasn’t

909
00:58:19,810 –> 00:58:23,280
addressed all of their solutions,

910
00:58:23,520 –> 00:58:26,480
don’t actually seem to address the actual problem.

911
00:58:27,120 –> 00:58:30,720
And then you have another candidate whose solutions actually

912
00:58:31,360 –> 00:58:35,200
are getting to the root causes like mental illness, you know,

913
00:58:36,320 –> 00:58:40,000
and building codes and, you know, the

914
00:58:40,000 –> 00:58:43,800
things that are actually, you know, building codes and not enough people to

915
00:58:43,800 –> 00:58:47,430
help with inspections. And, you know, so

916
00:58:47,510 –> 00:58:50,870
that’s. That to me, is

917
00:58:51,910 –> 00:58:55,510
moral authority because, you know, because

918
00:58:55,510 –> 00:58:59,350
you’re actually getting to the solutions that are going to solve

919
00:58:59,350 –> 00:59:03,190
problems. And when you see the person who has solutions that

920
00:59:03,190 –> 00:59:05,830
address a root cause and then.

921
00:59:10,230 –> 00:59:13,750
They’re challenged by the power structure,

922
00:59:15,190 –> 00:59:18,700
you do have to ask, you know, who has the moral

923
00:59:18,930 –> 00:59:22,290
authority? It’s the person typically who’s getting pushed out.

924
00:59:22,690 –> 00:59:26,130
Right. Who’s losing everything but still wants to speak.

925
00:59:27,170 –> 00:59:30,450
Well, well, you brought it up, you brought it up earlier. And I think it’s,

926
00:59:30,450 –> 00:59:34,250
it’s worth repeating yet again that institutions should do what they say they’re going to

927
00:59:34,250 –> 00:59:37,970
do. Right, Exactly. And, and someone, not someone.

928
00:59:38,530 –> 00:59:42,210
One of the things in democracy, small D democracy,

929
00:59:42,770 –> 00:59:45,850
is all of the people are

930
00:59:46,250 –> 00:59:50,090
responsible nominally for ensuring that

931
00:59:50,090 –> 00:59:53,810
the institutions do well. All the institutions do what they say they’re going to

932
00:59:53,810 –> 00:59:57,450
do. Now, in a republic,

933
00:59:57,930 –> 01:00:00,890
which is what we have in the United States,

934
01:00:01,610 –> 01:00:02,970
we vote for people,

935
01:00:05,290 –> 01:00:09,130
and then those people are the ones that are supposed to make the institutions

936
01:00:09,210 –> 01:00:12,900
do what they say they’re going to do. Now,

937
01:00:13,780 –> 01:00:15,460
the people that we vote for

938
01:00:17,460 –> 01:00:21,300
have to have some kind of moral weight. There also

939
01:00:21,780 –> 01:00:24,900
has to be consequences for

940
01:00:25,540 –> 01:00:29,140
failure. And the frustrating

941
01:00:29,140 –> 01:00:32,940
thing, for many Americans over the last 25 years, regardless

942
01:00:32,940 –> 01:00:36,340
of who I talk to, left, right or center, the main

943
01:00:36,340 –> 01:00:40,090
frustration, politically left, politically radically considered, doesn’t matter. The

944
01:00:40,090 –> 01:00:43,010
number one frustration is that there are no

945
01:00:43,330 –> 01:00:45,490
seeming consequences for failure.

946
01:00:47,170 –> 01:00:48,370
So if, if your,

947
01:00:51,570 –> 01:00:53,809
if your city has a fire

948
01:00:55,810 –> 01:00:59,570
that could have been prevented if the fire hydrants had water in

949
01:00:59,570 –> 01:01:03,410
them, right. There should

950
01:01:03,570 –> 01:01:07,180
be a penalty, there should be accountability

951
01:01:07,340 –> 01:01:11,060
for that failure. Exactly. I’m going to scale this

952
01:01:11,060 –> 01:01:13,980
up even further, actually. I’m going to use another example.

953
01:01:15,180 –> 01:01:17,900
If you are a politician

954
01:01:19,660 –> 01:01:23,340
and you decide that you’re going to comment on

955
01:01:23,340 –> 01:01:26,820
something in the culture and Your

956
01:01:26,820 –> 01:01:30,460
commentary is 180

957
01:01:30,460 –> 01:01:32,460
degrees, as my mother would say, from sideways,

958
01:01:34,790 –> 01:01:38,150
which means it’s not relevant. For those of you in Rio

959
01:01:38,150 –> 01:01:41,950
Linda, you, you. There should, there is going

960
01:01:41,950 –> 01:01:45,630
to be. There should be a consequence for that. I’m not

961
01:01:45,630 –> 01:01:49,470
saying that your right to speak should be abrogated. I’m not saying

962
01:01:49,470 –> 01:01:52,310
you should be. Shut up. Yeah, I agree there should be. Right. But there should

963
01:01:52,310 –> 01:01:55,510
be consequences for that. I’m going to scale it up a little further.

964
01:01:56,790 –> 01:02:00,630
If you go to Congress and you were a

965
01:02:00,630 –> 01:02:04,470
$15 an hour barista and after a term

966
01:02:04,470 –> 01:02:08,110
in Congress, one term, you come out a millionaire,

967
01:02:08,910 –> 01:02:12,630
right? There should be consequences for.

968
01:02:12,630 –> 01:02:16,429
There should be accountability for that. I don’t get to start at,

969
01:02:16,910 –> 01:02:20,510
at $15 an hour and a year later make a million dollars.

970
01:02:20,830 –> 01:02:23,470
That’s not how things work. So

971
01:02:25,310 –> 01:02:29,150
what the frustrating thing is is that there seems to be no consequences for failure.

972
01:02:29,230 –> 01:02:31,380
And Hugo in Les Mis

973
01:02:33,940 –> 01:02:37,700
lays out what the consequences for failure are. He lays out,

974
01:02:37,700 –> 01:02:41,260
and we’re going to talk about Napoleon now. He lays out what failure actually

975
01:02:41,260 –> 01:02:45,020
looks like and what it actually means to experience those consequences

976
01:02:45,020 –> 01:02:48,500
and how wide ranging they are for society in our

977
01:02:48,580 –> 01:02:52,140
time. I think for leaders, we have to

978
01:02:52,140 –> 01:02:54,820
realize that at a certain point

979
01:02:57,710 –> 01:03:01,110
the laws of physics just work like the laws of

980
01:03:01,110 –> 01:03:04,270
reality just are what they are. Well, and

981
01:03:05,230 –> 01:03:08,830
this is what, you know, and as you were speaking, I was really thinking about

982
01:03:08,830 –> 01:03:12,470
this really clearly. Like, you know, when

983
01:03:12,470 –> 01:03:15,310
you’ve scaled up and everything’s centralized,

984
01:03:18,590 –> 01:03:22,430
there’s op. There’s opacity, and it’s harder

985
01:03:22,430 –> 01:03:26,220
to trace where a breakdown in moral

986
01:03:26,220 –> 01:03:29,540
authority is. You know,

987
01:03:29,940 –> 01:03:33,420
so there’s the. I care about affordability, I care about

988
01:03:33,420 –> 01:03:36,820
affordability. Yet we’re not seeing affordability right

989
01:03:36,900 –> 01:03:40,580
addressed, you know, and that’s for the common man, the middle class,

990
01:03:40,820 –> 01:03:43,620
you know, lower middle class, middle class and upper class.

991
01:03:44,420 –> 01:03:48,260
And you know, we have to. And one of the reasons we

992
01:03:48,260 –> 01:03:51,950
haven’t seen consequences for actions is

993
01:03:51,950 –> 01:03:55,710
because we haven’t. You know, in theory, folks are saying

994
01:03:55,710 –> 01:03:59,390
our vote matters. We’re

995
01:03:59,390 –> 01:04:03,190
told it is. But there’s so much opacity

996
01:04:04,230 –> 01:04:08,030
to the system that I can’t, I can’t

997
01:04:08,030 –> 01:04:11,670
trust that your moral authority is actually

998
01:04:11,670 –> 01:04:15,190
translated, that you actually have deserved moral authority.

999
01:04:15,510 –> 01:04:19,130
You’re telling me every vote matters and

1000
01:04:19,130 –> 01:04:22,410
you’re counting them all fairly and

1001
01:04:22,650 –> 01:04:25,290
everything is legal. You know, there’s.

1002
01:04:26,490 –> 01:04:29,770
There’s too much opacity in the system

1003
01:04:30,810 –> 01:04:34,250
and too many places for that trust to break down.

1004
01:04:34,570 –> 01:04:38,290
And I mean by that with yoke, you know, if let

1005
01:04:38,290 –> 01:04:41,610
make it very, very simple. Decentralized accountability.

1006
01:04:42,490 –> 01:04:45,050
Yeah, we all vote the same day. We show our id.

1007
01:04:46,620 –> 01:04:50,220
There’s two people watching the system,

1008
01:04:51,260 –> 01:04:55,020
watching people take their votes, take the id. That to me is

1009
01:04:55,020 –> 01:04:58,700
a demonstration that those who are

1010
01:04:58,780 –> 01:05:02,420
saying democracy matters and your

1011
01:05:02,420 –> 01:05:06,220
vote matters. It’s visible to

1012
01:05:06,220 –> 01:05:09,940
me that it does because of what I

1013
01:05:09,940 –> 01:05:13,590
see, my reality, what

1014
01:05:13,590 –> 01:05:16,950
I see, not what I hear. And so

1015
01:05:17,750 –> 01:05:21,510
we’ve seen now we’re, now we’re told

1016
01:05:21,750 –> 01:05:25,430
the system is fair even though you can,

1017
01:05:25,430 –> 01:05:29,150
in California you can receive

1018
01:05:29,150 –> 01:05:32,710
votes up to 20 days after the election

1019
01:05:32,950 –> 01:05:36,710
as long as it has a written post date on it, not even

1020
01:05:36,710 –> 01:05:37,030
a

1021
01:05:39,840 –> 01:05:43,600
UPS or use United States Postal Service stamp on it.

1022
01:05:43,680 –> 01:05:47,200
If it’s believed that that date may be correct, then you can accept

1023
01:05:47,200 –> 01:05:50,800
it. So you put, started to put

1024
01:05:50,800 –> 01:05:54,000
too many barriers to my trust

1025
01:05:55,440 –> 01:05:59,200
in the way and that’s why you start to get a populist uprising

1026
01:05:59,440 –> 01:06:03,280
is because you no longer are deserving of the moral

1027
01:06:03,280 –> 01:06:07,060
authority that you want were because reality

1028
01:06:07,060 –> 01:06:10,300
is no longer lined up with your words.

1029
01:06:10,860 –> 01:06:14,700
Correct? Yes, yes, yes, yes. And,

1030
01:06:14,700 –> 01:06:17,180
and you know what we,

1031
01:06:19,820 –> 01:06:23,220
Populism is a dirty word these days, right. Just like

1032
01:06:23,220 –> 01:06:27,020
nationalism is a dirty word, you know,

1033
01:06:27,500 –> 01:06:30,220
but it’s only a dirty word to people

1034
01:06:31,280 –> 01:06:34,920
who in power who have benefited from the

1035
01:06:34,920 –> 01:06:38,160
opacity, they’ve skated by on accountability,

1036
01:06:38,800 –> 01:06:42,600
they’ve gotten paid and not just paid in money. They

1037
01:06:42,600 –> 01:06:45,840
get paid in status and in attention and in power

1038
01:06:46,160 –> 01:06:49,560
and in influence. Money is like the least

1039
01:06:49,560 –> 01:06:52,720
worrisome thing. Honestly, in tribalism,

1040
01:06:52,800 –> 01:06:55,840
identity is the number one thing that we can control.

1041
01:06:56,830 –> 01:07:00,470
Yeah. When you talk about cults, identity is the driver

1042
01:07:00,470 –> 01:07:04,110
of cult like behavior, Right? Exactly, exactly,

1043
01:07:04,670 –> 01:07:08,390
exactly. And, and so, you know, and then when

1044
01:07:08,390 –> 01:07:11,910
you question the opacity or you

1045
01:07:11,910 –> 01:07:15,630
question the lack of transparency or you question the accountability,

1046
01:07:16,590 –> 01:07:19,230
you are then put in the box of,

1047
01:07:20,750 –> 01:07:24,480
and I’m going to use this term, an election denier or, or,

1048
01:07:24,480 –> 01:07:27,880
or you’re shuffled off to the darker corners of the

1049
01:07:27,880 –> 01:07:31,480
Internet where all the crazy people hang out. Because who couldn’t

1050
01:07:31,480 –> 01:07:34,480
possibly believe that our, all of our elections are free and fair.

1051
01:07:35,040 –> 01:07:38,880
But watch what, but watch what is happening. A person who

1052
01:07:38,880 –> 01:07:42,320
has courage of their convictions and is saying

1053
01:07:42,400 –> 01:07:45,840
something that will ostracize them for society,

1054
01:07:46,800 –> 01:07:50,380
right? Like yeah, yeah, people are saying

1055
01:07:50,460 –> 01:07:54,220
things that could have them lose their jobs, can have them lose their position

1056
01:07:54,220 –> 01:07:58,060
in their community. You, that’s

1057
01:07:58,060 –> 01:08:01,260
why a populism resonates is because

1058
01:08:02,380 –> 01:08:06,220
there’s so much sacrifice that comes with like

1059
01:08:06,460 –> 01:08:10,220
skating things that could get you jailed or lose your

1060
01:08:10,220 –> 01:08:13,900
job, that type of, that type of thing. The reason

1061
01:08:14,060 –> 01:08:16,900
why, you know,

1062
01:08:19,300 –> 01:08:22,580
the reality star resonated

1063
01:08:22,820 –> 01:08:26,500
is because he was Actually talking to the things that we saw every day

1064
01:08:26,500 –> 01:08:29,220
that everyone was telling us doesn’t exist.

1065
01:08:30,100 –> 01:08:33,540
And we’re working on it. And this is how

1066
01:08:33,940 –> 01:08:37,620
wasn’t translating where these ephemeral intellectual

1067
01:08:37,620 –> 01:08:41,380
ideas that weren’t translating into reality. And then you had someone who was

1068
01:08:41,380 –> 01:08:45,100
actually dealing with the things that talking about the things that we

1069
01:08:45,100 –> 01:08:48,580
saw every day that we’d been hearing for five,

1070
01:08:48,660 –> 01:08:52,260
10 years were supposed to be addressed and weren’t. And he

1071
01:08:52,260 –> 01:08:55,780
actually seemed to have solutions that a practical

1072
01:08:55,940 –> 01:08:59,620
mind said, yeah, that would work. Right. You know, those who

1073
01:08:59,620 –> 01:09:03,060
live in reality. And so the

1074
01:09:03,060 –> 01:09:06,900
moral authority, you know, like the, the

1075
01:09:07,060 –> 01:09:10,629
religious individual, the bishop, was actually

1076
01:09:10,629 –> 01:09:13,829
acting in reality because he understood human

1077
01:09:13,829 –> 01:09:17,189
motivation. Yes. And he

1078
01:09:17,189 –> 01:09:19,709
understood how shame

1079
01:09:21,469 –> 01:09:25,068
could turn someone and continued shaming of someone

1080
01:09:25,068 –> 01:09:28,909
could turn them down a path into a life of crime

1081
01:09:29,469 –> 01:09:33,229
versus a moment giving someone grace

1082
01:09:33,789 –> 01:09:36,589
could create the goodwill and the desire

1083
01:09:38,019 –> 01:09:41,339
to help and do good. That’s much more

1084
01:09:41,339 –> 01:09:44,739
powerful than anything else. You know, so

1085
01:09:45,219 –> 01:09:46,739
understanding human nature,

1086
01:09:50,339 –> 01:09:53,979
authority is really, is very important because it’s not the

1087
01:09:53,979 –> 01:09:57,459
vision statement, it’s the actual

1088
01:09:58,819 –> 01:10:02,379
operating and living by the

1089
01:10:02,379 –> 01:10:06,180
principles that you purport to be true. You purport to be true.

1090
01:10:06,180 –> 01:10:09,700
Yep, absolutely. Yeah. My. It.

1091
01:10:09,700 –> 01:10:13,420
Yeah. And Hugo, and as what I.

1092
01:10:13,420 –> 01:10:17,100
Hugo learned this and he could speak to it so beautifully

1093
01:10:17,660 –> 01:10:21,100
because he’d struggled with every stage of

1094
01:10:21,820 –> 01:10:25,460
this himself. Yes, yes, yes. Well, and

1095
01:10:25,460 –> 01:10:28,940
he. This is why

1096
01:10:29,340 –> 01:10:32,630
I, you know, I said this already, but I’ll say it again. His characters are

1097
01:10:32,630 –> 01:10:36,350
fully realized. They are three dimensional. Even

1098
01:10:36,350 –> 01:10:39,590
the Thenardines who are, who are sort of sub villains,

1099
01:10:40,470 –> 01:10:44,270
you know, they are fully realized. Fantine is fully

1100
01:10:44,270 –> 01:10:46,870
realized. Cossette is fully realized,

1101
01:10:48,230 –> 01:10:51,110
the Monsignor fully realized.

1102
01:10:51,990 –> 01:10:55,110
Even the, even the

1103
01:10:56,550 –> 01:11:00,060
young man who were the

1104
01:11:00,460 –> 01:11:04,300
group of girls that Fantine was a part of, and then the young

1105
01:11:04,300 –> 01:11:07,300
men that were their lovers and they’re cavorting around or whatever. And then of course,

1106
01:11:07,300 –> 01:11:11,140
you know, he knocks Fantine up and then disappears into the night. Does

1107
01:11:11,140 –> 01:11:14,980
the Johnny Appleseed move. Even that guy is fully

1108
01:11:14,980 –> 01:11:18,060
realized. Like he gives, he gives him a beginning, a middle and an end. And

1109
01:11:18,060 –> 01:11:21,660
actually the end is that he became like some low level mayor in some town

1110
01:11:21,660 –> 01:11:24,760
or whatever. And, and

1111
01:11:24,920 –> 01:11:28,720
there’s no castaway characters in this book.

1112
01:11:28,720 –> 01:11:32,440
Every one of them is so tightly written and so, so fully

1113
01:11:32,440 –> 01:11:36,280
realized. And I think they’re fully realized because we’re going to

1114
01:11:36,280 –> 01:11:40,119
turn the corner here and talk about Napoleon and then wrap up, at least for

1115
01:11:40,119 –> 01:11:43,840
today, but they’re fully realized because I

1116
01:11:43,840 –> 01:11:46,840
think Hugo as a romanticist,

1117
01:11:47,640 –> 01:11:51,330
and I say this on the show as myself or I

1118
01:11:51,330 –> 01:11:54,890
tagged myself with this. He was a fan of human beings. He actually

1119
01:11:54,970 –> 01:11:58,330
liked people. He actually thought people had potential.

1120
01:11:59,210 –> 01:12:02,650
He did. I, I see. I. He did. And I think that I, I agree

1121
01:12:02,650 –> 01:12:06,410
with you. Okay, so we have Javert, who believes in the letter

1122
01:12:06,410 –> 01:12:09,690
of the law. Of the law, yes. Right. We have

1123
01:12:10,090 –> 01:12:12,970
the, the Thenardier,

1124
01:12:14,010 –> 01:12:17,540
a criminal. And I’m going to be a criminal, you know, and even though you

1125
01:12:17,700 –> 01:12:21,540
thought I was a good man, you know, and I benefited from it, I’m still

1126
01:12:21,540 –> 01:12:25,260
going to be a criminal. Right. And then you have Jean Valjean, who actually,

1127
01:12:25,260 –> 01:12:28,580
in my mind, he start. He did a crime out of love,

1128
01:12:29,620 –> 01:12:32,980
right. Like for his sister because he wanted to feed her and her family.

1129
01:12:33,380 –> 01:12:37,180
He did a crime out of love in the. Yeah.

1130
01:12:37,180 –> 01:12:40,700
And I don’t believe you should, but when you’re looking at the

1131
01:12:40,700 –> 01:12:44,370
pyramid of, you know, Maslov pyramid of needs, if you don’t have that

1132
01:12:44,370 –> 01:12:48,090
base level met, like, people have to eat, you

1133
01:12:48,090 –> 01:12:51,810
know, yes, things are going to happen. But he

1134
01:12:51,810 –> 01:12:55,050
was like, well, maybe I’m not love. This is, this is Libby’s

1135
01:12:55,050 –> 01:12:58,450
interpretation. You know, when he’s told over and over and over again he’s a criminal

1136
01:12:58,610 –> 01:13:01,970
and he’s going to have this scarlet letter for the rest of his life.

1137
01:13:02,450 –> 01:13:06,010
He’s like, they keep telling him, no love, no love, you’re a

1138
01:13:06,010 –> 01:13:09,650
criminal. He’s like, well, then I act like one, you know, kind of like, you

1139
01:13:09,650 –> 01:13:13,380
know, defiantly. But then someone shows grace. He’s like, I

1140
01:13:13,380 –> 01:13:17,180
can see that love. You know, those are my interpretations of

1141
01:13:17,180 –> 01:13:20,900
the, of the bishop, but I can see that love,

1142
01:13:20,900 –> 01:13:23,540
and you have it in you, and I’m going to help you by doing the

1143
01:13:23,540 –> 01:13:27,259
right thing. And so that’s what drives him,

1144
01:13:27,740 –> 01:13:31,500
you know, Valjean, through the rest of the, the rest of the book

1145
01:13:32,060 –> 01:13:35,740
is, you know, I’m going to do the right thing. And he does do the

1146
01:13:35,740 –> 01:13:39,000
right thing, and it’s kind of out of love and, you know,

1147
01:13:39,320 –> 01:13:43,160
getting him out. Out of those base needs

1148
01:13:43,160 –> 01:13:46,880
by building a business and being able to support himself and

1149
01:13:46,880 –> 01:13:50,520
to help others so that he’s not having to act out of base.

1150
01:13:50,760 –> 01:13:53,960
Base needs. Base needs. But he’s the most human

1151
01:13:54,760 –> 01:13:58,520
and redemptive character that I think, you know,

1152
01:13:58,520 –> 01:14:02,320
Hugo’s using as a model of even though we’ve sinned. Even

1153
01:14:02,320 –> 01:14:05,920
though you’ve sinned, you can redeem yourself and make the right

1154
01:14:05,920 –> 01:14:09,720
path. Make the right choice and make the right choice. Yes. And it’s. And

1155
01:14:09,720 –> 01:14:13,320
it’s human beings that have to be involved in relationship with each other in order

1156
01:14:13,320 –> 01:14:16,880
just realize that we’re flawed. But you don’t have to accept that moment of

1157
01:14:16,880 –> 01:14:20,720
flaw. And you know, if small moments are big, you got to

1158
01:14:20,720 –> 01:14:24,120
continue to move forward and redeem yourself. Yes, absolutely.

1159
01:14:25,320 –> 01:14:28,960
Okay, let me, let me go to something that was that

1160
01:14:28,960 –> 01:14:31,560
I just, just absolutely struck me

1161
01:14:32,850 –> 01:14:35,810
in. Well, one of the many things that struck me in this book.

1162
01:14:37,570 –> 01:14:37,970
The.

1163
01:14:42,210 –> 01:14:45,250
So we go to cassette, the book one.

1164
01:14:46,130 –> 01:14:47,490
So the chapter on cassette

1165
01:14:49,730 –> 01:14:53,250
starts out with a. Probably

1166
01:14:53,330 –> 01:14:56,370
the, the best description I had ever read

1167
01:14:57,010 –> 01:15:00,470
of the battle at Waterloo,

1168
01:15:01,110 –> 01:15:04,830
exactly what happened there. And it opens

1169
01:15:04,830 –> 01:15:07,270
up with what you see on the way from Nevillier

1170
01:15:08,070 –> 01:15:11,790
Hugomont, talking about the doors and

1171
01:15:11,790 –> 01:15:15,590
the orchard. And then June 18, 1815,

1172
01:15:20,550 –> 01:15:23,910
I, I, I read these chapters

1173
01:15:24,290 –> 01:15:28,130
and then he goes into a. The quid obscurum of battles.

1174
01:15:28,130 –> 01:15:31,090
I’m just reading the chapter titles. 4 o’ clock in the Afternoon.

1175
01:15:31,410 –> 01:15:35,050
Napoleon in a good Mood. The

1176
01:15:35,050 –> 01:15:38,850
Emperor asks the guide La Costa a question, the

1177
01:15:38,850 –> 01:15:42,370
Unexpected and the plateau of

1178
01:15:42,370 –> 01:15:45,890
Mont St. Jean. And then finally wraps up with

1179
01:15:46,370 –> 01:15:49,410
Bad guide for Napoleon, good for Bulow

1180
01:15:50,140 –> 01:15:53,500
the Guard and of course the catastrophe.

1181
01:15:54,700 –> 01:15:57,820
Now these chapters, these 14

1182
01:15:58,060 –> 01:16:01,660
chapters in the first book cover

1183
01:16:01,660 –> 01:16:04,940
about 40 pages

1184
01:16:05,819 –> 01:16:09,420
and he sums up the entire battle of Waterloo.

1185
01:16:10,380 –> 01:16:12,060
And he sums up Napoleon

1186
01:16:15,430 –> 01:16:19,110
in the 15th chapter, Cambrone.

1187
01:16:19,270 –> 01:16:22,150
And I’m going to, I’m going to read from this and then we’re going to

1188
01:16:22,150 –> 01:16:25,430
talk about. About a man. I’m fascinated by Napoleon.

1189
01:16:25,830 –> 01:16:29,550
Napoleon Bonaparte. Out of

1190
01:16:29,550 –> 01:16:33,310
respect to the French reader, the finest word perhaps

1191
01:16:33,310 –> 01:16:36,870
that a Frenchman ever uttered cannot be repeated to him. We are

1192
01:16:36,870 –> 01:16:40,710
prohibited from applying the sublime to history at our own risk

1193
01:16:40,710 –> 01:16:44,440
and peril. We violate that prohibition. Among these giants, then

1194
01:16:44,440 –> 01:16:48,080
there was one titan, Cambrone. To speak that

1195
01:16:48,080 –> 01:16:51,920
word and then to die. What could be greater? For to accept death is to

1196
01:16:51,920 –> 01:16:55,720
die. And it is not this man’s fault if in the storm of grapeshot

1197
01:16:55,720 –> 01:16:59,360
he survived. The man who won the battle of Waterloo is not

1198
01:16:59,360 –> 01:17:02,920
Napoleon put to route nor Wellington giving way at 4 o’, clock,

1199
01:17:02,920 –> 01:17:06,760
desperate at 5 not blue share who did not fight. The man

1200
01:17:06,760 –> 01:17:08,840
who won the battle of Waterloo was Kim Roning.

1201
01:17:11,470 –> 01:17:15,030
To burst out with such a word at the thunderbolt that kills you is

1202
01:17:15,030 –> 01:17:18,670
victory. To give this answer to disaster,

1203
01:17:18,670 –> 01:17:22,350
to say this to destiny, to supply this base for the future lion.

1204
01:17:22,510 –> 01:17:25,950
To fling down this reply to the reign of the previous night, to the

1205
01:17:25,950 –> 01:17:29,790
treacherous wall at Hugomont, to the sunken road of Ohain, to Grouchy’s

1206
01:17:29,790 –> 01:17:33,390
delay, to Blucher’s arrival to be ironic in the sepulcher,

1207
01:17:33,390 –> 01:17:37,010
to act so as to remain Upright after falling, down after

1208
01:17:37,010 –> 01:17:40,330
falling. To drown the European coalition in two syllables

1209
01:17:40,410 –> 01:17:44,010
privies that the Caesars were already privy to. To make the last

1210
01:17:44,010 –> 01:17:47,850
words the first by associating it with the glory of France. To close

1211
01:17:48,010 –> 01:17:51,690
Waterloo insolently with a Mardi Gras, to complete

1212
01:17:51,690 –> 01:17:55,490
Leonidas with Rabelier. To sum up this victory in one supreme word

1213
01:17:55,490 –> 01:17:59,290
that cannot be spoken. To lose the field and to recover history after

1214
01:17:59,290 –> 01:18:03,060
this carnage, to have the laugh on his side is

1215
01:18:03,060 –> 01:18:06,740
immense. It is an insult to the thunderbolt.

1216
01:18:06,740 –> 01:18:09,380
It attains the grandeur of Eschylus.

1217
01:18:10,740 –> 01:18:14,540
This word of Cambrones, by the way the word was merde has

1218
01:18:14,540 –> 01:18:18,100
the effect of a fracture. It is the breaking of a heart by

1219
01:18:18,100 –> 01:18:21,460
scorn. It is a surplus of agony and explosion. Who conquered

1220
01:18:21,780 –> 01:18:25,300
Wellington? No, without Blue Share he would have been lost. Blusher.

1221
01:18:25,540 –> 01:18:29,300
No, if Wellington had not begun, Blucher could not have finished. This Cambrone

1222
01:18:29,680 –> 01:18:32,720
coming at the final hour, this unknown soldier, this infinitesimal

1223
01:18:33,040 –> 01:18:36,240
particle of war, senses a lie within a catastrophe

1224
01:18:36,320 –> 01:18:40,040
doubly bitter. And at the moment when he is bursting with rage, he is offered

1225
01:18:40,040 –> 01:18:43,760
this mockery life. How could he restrain himself?

1226
01:18:45,760 –> 01:18:49,520
They are there, all the kings of Europe, the fortunate generals, the

1227
01:18:49,520 –> 01:18:52,800
thundering jupiters. They have 100,000 victorious

1228
01:18:52,800 –> 01:18:56,440
soldiers. And behind the 100,000amillion. Their guns, with matches

1229
01:18:56,440 –> 01:19:00,180
lit, stand open mouthed. They have the Imperial Guard in the Grand Armee

1230
01:19:00,180 –> 01:19:03,620
under their feet. They have just crushed Napoleon. And Cambronne alone

1231
01:19:03,700 –> 01:19:06,980
remains none. But this earthworm is left to protest. He will

1232
01:19:06,980 –> 01:19:10,780
protest. So he looks for a word as one looks for a sword. Froth

1233
01:19:10,780 –> 01:19:13,620
comes through his mouth, and this froth is the word.

1234
01:19:14,740 –> 01:19:18,220
Faced with this prodigious and mediocre victory, this victory without

1235
01:19:18,220 –> 01:19:22,060
victors, the desperate man draws himself up. He suffers his enormity,

1236
01:19:22,060 –> 01:19:25,890
but he recognizes it’s nothingness. And he does more than spit

1237
01:19:25,890 –> 01:19:29,570
on it. Overwhelmed in numbers and material strength, he finds in his

1238
01:19:29,570 –> 01:19:33,130
soul a means of expression, excrement, we

1239
01:19:33,130 –> 01:19:36,890
repeat. To say that, to do that, to find that is

1240
01:19:36,890 –> 01:19:40,690
to be a conqueror, the spirit of great days.

1241
01:19:40,690 –> 01:19:44,410
Enter this unknown man. At that fatal moment, Cambrone finds the word

1242
01:19:44,410 –> 01:19:47,930
for Waterloo as Rouge de Isle finds the Marseille.

1243
01:19:48,330 –> 01:19:52,100
Through an inspiration from above, a breath from the

1244
01:19:52,100 –> 01:19:55,900
divine maelstrom passes across these men and they tremble. And the one

1245
01:19:55,900 –> 01:19:59,740
sings the supreme song, the other utters the terrible cry, this word

1246
01:19:59,740 –> 01:20:03,580
of titanic scorn. The Cambrone throws

1247
01:20:03,580 –> 01:20:06,900
out, not merely at Europe in the name of the empire,

1248
01:20:07,700 –> 01:20:11,340
that would be but little. He throws it out at the past in the name

1249
01:20:11,340 –> 01:20:15,060
of the revolution. It is heard and men recognize in Camerone

1250
01:20:15,060 –> 01:20:18,520
the old soul of the giants. It is though Danton was speaking,

1251
01:20:18,600 –> 01:20:22,240
or Clebert roaring to this word from

1252
01:20:22,240 –> 01:20:25,840
Cambron. The English voice replied, fire. The

1253
01:20:25,840 –> 01:20:29,680
batteries flared, the hill trembled. From all those brazen throats went forth a

1254
01:20:29,680 –> 01:20:33,400
final terrible vomiting of grapeshot. Vast clouds of

1255
01:20:33,400 –> 01:20:36,720
smoke, dusky white in the light of the rising moon, rolled away. And when the

1256
01:20:36,720 –> 01:20:40,560
smoke settled, there was nothing left. That formidable remnant was

1257
01:20:40,560 –> 01:20:44,220
annihilated. The guard was dead. The four walls of the living redoubt had

1258
01:20:44,220 –> 01:20:48,060
fallen. Hardly could a quivering be detected here and there among the corpses. And

1259
01:20:48,060 –> 01:20:51,860
thus the French legions, grander than the Roman legions, expired

1260
01:20:51,860 –> 01:20:55,460
at Mont St. Jean on ground soaked in rain and

1261
01:20:55,460 –> 01:20:59,260
blood in the somber wheat fields. In the somber wheat fields at

1262
01:20:59,260 –> 01:21:03,020
the spot where today, at four in the morning, whistling and

1263
01:21:03,020 –> 01:21:06,860
gaily whipping up his horse, Joseph drives by with the mail from

1264
01:21:06,860 –> 01:21:07,380
Neuve.

1265
01:21:15,310 –> 01:21:19,070
I am a fan of military history. I’ve read quite a bit of it.

1266
01:21:19,070 –> 01:21:22,870
I have never read. I had never read before. I read

1267
01:21:22,870 –> 01:21:26,630
this, something like that before. If. If

1268
01:21:26,630 –> 01:21:30,310
the. If. And you know what. And I’ll tell my story now about Les Miz,

1269
01:21:30,310 –> 01:21:31,950
the movie. So this is my story.

1270
01:21:34,840 –> 01:21:37,720
When the movie came out with Anne Hathaway a few years ago

1271
01:21:38,760 –> 01:21:42,600
and Russell Crowe. Pleasure there. And

1272
01:21:42,600 –> 01:21:46,320
I can’t remember who was the guy from the Greatest Showman. What’s his

1273
01:21:46,320 –> 01:21:50,040
name? Wolverine. Wolverine, that guy? Yeah. I

1274
01:21:50,040 –> 01:21:52,320
can’t think of his name. I can’t think of his name right now. It doesn’t

1275
01:21:52,320 –> 01:21:56,000
matter. But he was Jean Valjean, right? Okay. Big to

1276
01:21:56,000 –> 01:21:59,720
do about this movie. My wife was like, oh, we should go see this.

1277
01:22:00,410 –> 01:22:04,210
Like, okay, I get in

1278
01:22:04,210 –> 01:22:07,770
there, I get my tickets. I, you know, get into the theater. I,

1279
01:22:07,770 –> 01:22:10,890
you know, put my seat back and.

1280
01:22:12,490 –> 01:22:15,050
And. And Russell Crowe starts singing.

1281
01:22:17,290 –> 01:22:19,530
And two hours later I wake up and the whole thing.

1282
01:22:26,930 –> 01:22:27,170
And

1283
01:22:30,690 –> 01:22:34,130
so when I picked up the book, Les Mis, my wife, remembering this, of course,

1284
01:22:35,730 –> 01:22:38,570
asks me, how long is it going to take you to get through this book?

1285
01:22:38,570 –> 01:22:41,210
How long are you going to go in this book before you give up? Like,

1286
01:22:41,210 –> 01:22:43,770
well, I’ll just keep going until, I don’t know, until I stop. I don’t know,

1287
01:22:43,770 –> 01:22:46,850
until the book stops or whatever. And

1288
01:22:47,330 –> 01:22:50,130
it is moments, and this is the reason why I bring this up. It is

1289
01:22:50,130 –> 01:22:53,490
moments like Waterloo, the description of the Battle of

1290
01:22:53,490 –> 01:22:56,970
Waterloo, how he breaks that sucker down over 15 chapters.

1291
01:22:58,250 –> 01:23:01,850
That’s what I wanted to see in the movie. I

1292
01:23:01,850 –> 01:23:05,530
wanted to. That. That’s what I wanted. That’s it.

1293
01:23:05,530 –> 01:23:07,930
That would have. I would have. I Would have stayed awake for that.

1294
01:23:11,210 –> 01:23:13,730
Yeah, none of that’s in the movie. Instead, we get a whole bunch of other

1295
01:23:13,730 –> 01:23:16,090
different things, which is fine. I’m gonna get to something else here. At the end

1296
01:23:16,090 –> 01:23:19,090
of our episode here, which actually, like I said, kind of. Kind of opened a

1297
01:23:19,090 –> 01:23:22,770
door for me in my head based off of a. Off of

1298
01:23:22,770 –> 01:23:26,490
a song that was in. That was from the movie that I heard. I

1299
01:23:26,490 –> 01:23:30,290
heard this weekend at a. At a. At a recital that I was at. So

1300
01:23:31,410 –> 01:23:35,090
that description, though, of Cambron and the.

1301
01:23:35,090 –> 01:23:38,210
And the end of Waterloo, he. How he breaks down the

1302
01:23:38,450 –> 01:23:41,570
battlefield and breaks down what happened there.

1303
01:23:42,210 –> 01:23:45,550
It was a stunning, stunning

1304
01:23:45,550 –> 01:23:49,310
achievement by someone who I don’t think ever fired a weapon

1305
01:23:49,310 –> 01:23:51,990
at anybody in anger, like, ever. Right.

1306
01:23:54,870 –> 01:23:58,230
The familiarity that Hugo had with

1307
01:23:58,310 –> 01:24:01,870
Napoleon and how Waterloo was such a

1308
01:24:01,870 –> 01:24:05,670
disaster for not just Napoleon, but

1309
01:24:05,670 –> 01:24:09,030
I think it was a disaster for the French mindset as well,

1310
01:24:10,320 –> 01:24:14,040
that they didn’t really fully recover from. And actually being a person

1311
01:24:14,040 –> 01:24:17,760
who believes that World War I is the headwaters for all

1312
01:24:17,760 –> 01:24:21,520
the nonsense that happened in the 20th century, I now understand

1313
01:24:21,760 –> 01:24:25,440
at a deeper level why the French felt

1314
01:24:26,080 –> 01:24:29,840
so compelled to continue to throw men into the Western Front

1315
01:24:29,840 –> 01:24:33,040
during World War I. Just unbelievable,

1316
01:24:33,520 –> 01:24:37,070
the numbers of Frenchmen that died in the Western

1317
01:24:37,070 –> 01:24:40,630
Front. And they wouldn’t stop throwing those men in there. They

1318
01:24:40,630 –> 01:24:44,470
wouldn’t. They could have just stopped. They could have just not sent any more men

1319
01:24:44,470 –> 01:24:48,150
to the front, but they couldn’t do it, because they had

1320
01:24:48,150 –> 01:24:51,870
to. And I think this is not. This is not putting something on the French

1321
01:24:51,870 –> 01:24:55,270
military mind that wasn’t there. They had to erase the shame of

1322
01:24:55,270 –> 01:24:58,910
Napoleon’s defeated Waterloo. And you would

1323
01:24:58,910 –> 01:25:02,670
think that because Waterloo happened, what,

1324
01:25:02,670 –> 01:25:05,590
1815. Yeah, so it’s 1815. Right.

1325
01:25:07,190 –> 01:25:11,030
Battle of Waterloo happened at 1815. You’re telling. And

1326
01:25:11,030 –> 01:25:13,590
80 years, 90 years later,

1327
01:25:14,710 –> 01:25:18,550
they’re still dealing with the shame of that. And so they just throw people into

1328
01:25:18,550 –> 01:25:22,350
World War I. They just throw the men into the mall. And it’s because of

1329
01:25:22,350 –> 01:25:25,670
what happened at Waterloo. And that. And that really came home to me with Hugo’s

1330
01:25:25,670 –> 01:25:29,430
description of what happened. And he doesn’t

1331
01:25:29,430 –> 01:25:32,890
go into the psychology of Napoleon, thank God. He doesn’t

1332
01:25:32,890 –> 01:25:36,450
psychologize the trauma. He just says, this is the thing that

1333
01:25:36,450 –> 01:25:39,650
happened. He dramatizes it and he

1334
01:25:39,650 –> 01:25:43,330
romanticizes it, of course, because he’s a romantic romanticist

1335
01:25:43,890 –> 01:25:47,290
and a romantic writer, but he doesn’t. He doesn’t

1336
01:25:47,290 –> 01:25:50,690
psychologize it. He doesn’t. He doesn’t try to. Like.

1337
01:25:51,250 –> 01:25:53,810
He doesn’t try what a modern novelist would try to do. He doesn’t try to

1338
01:25:53,810 –> 01:25:57,650
make. Make Napoleon, what do you call it, acceptable

1339
01:25:58,210 –> 01:26:00,690
or make his actions understandable.

1340
01:26:01,970 –> 01:26:05,730
He doesn’t judge Napoleon as being problematic. He just says,

1341
01:26:05,730 –> 01:26:09,170
no. I mean, like, these are the vagaries of history. So we were going to

1342
01:26:09,170 –> 01:26:12,370
have a battle here, and the thunderbolt’s going to fall here.

1343
01:26:12,850 –> 01:26:16,570
And the beginning of the decline of the French.

1344
01:26:16,570 –> 01:26:20,290
Not even decline. The end of the French Revolution was

1345
01:26:20,290 –> 01:26:24,130
at Waterloo. And this is what he wants you to feel. And so it’s amazing.

1346
01:26:24,130 –> 01:26:27,820
This is just an amazing chapter to me. But what is what

1347
01:26:27,820 –> 01:26:31,460
happened from a Napoleon perspective? You

1348
01:26:31,460 –> 01:26:35,220
know, for 10. Yeah, for the, what, 15 years

1349
01:26:35,220 –> 01:26:38,540
before that, 20 years before that. Yeah. That led to that

1350
01:26:38,540 –> 01:26:39,340
culmination.

1351
01:26:42,940 –> 01:26:46,620
You mean before Napoleon? Well, no, part of his. As

1352
01:26:46,620 –> 01:26:49,980
part of Napoleon’s reign. Why would it end like that?

1353
01:26:51,510 –> 01:26:55,110
Oh, well, because you have the dynamic

1354
01:26:55,110 –> 01:26:58,630
of the French people, which Hugo is definitely

1355
01:26:58,630 –> 01:27:01,910
clearly on board with. You have the dynamic of the

1356
01:27:01,910 –> 01:27:05,630
institutions, the estates. Right. The first estate, the second state, third

1357
01:27:05,630 –> 01:27:09,350
estate, the fourth estate. Right. Which is, of course, their class system,

1358
01:27:09,510 –> 01:27:12,630
which they sought to. To, you know, paper over.

1359
01:27:14,470 –> 01:27:18,120
But then the. The third leg of that

1360
01:27:18,120 –> 01:27:21,680
chair is Napoleon himself. And

1361
01:27:21,760 –> 01:27:25,240
so one of the reasons I’m fascinated by. By

1362
01:27:25,240 –> 01:27:29,000
Napoleon is because of the ego on that man. Yeah, that’s what I

1363
01:27:29,000 –> 01:27:32,640
was. I wanted to get. Yeah, the ego on that man was

1364
01:27:33,040 –> 01:27:35,200
incredible. Like,

1365
01:27:37,520 –> 01:27:41,280
I. I will often say that the things that we

1366
01:27:41,280 –> 01:27:44,670
like about people are also the things that.

1367
01:27:45,390 –> 01:27:49,150
Or the things that people are good at is the things that often upend them

1368
01:27:49,150 –> 01:27:52,990
at the end of the day. Right. So, you

1369
01:27:52,990 –> 01:27:56,830
know, my grandmother warned me years ago, God rest her soul, but she warned

1370
01:27:56,830 –> 01:27:59,870
me years ago, your mouth’s gonna get you in trouble. And she was right. She’s

1371
01:27:59,870 –> 01:28:03,310
exactly right. My mouth gets me in trouble all the time. Grandma was exactly

1372
01:28:03,310 –> 01:28:06,830
correct. But my mouth is also what makes me money.

1373
01:28:07,150 –> 01:28:09,070
Yeah. You know, so

1374
01:28:11,110 –> 01:28:12,870
you got to take the bitter with the sweet. Right.

1375
01:28:14,310 –> 01:28:18,150
Napoleon. What made Napoleon able to see

1376
01:28:18,950 –> 01:28:22,710
how the armies of Europe could be fractured and shattered

1377
01:28:23,590 –> 01:28:27,270
and could be brought to heel? The thing that

1378
01:28:27,270 –> 01:28:30,950
made him see that was also the thing that led to the defeat at Waterloo.

1379
01:28:30,950 –> 01:28:34,750
It’s the same thing. It was the thing that led to him making a

1380
01:28:34,750 –> 01:28:38,480
mistake going into Russia. Like, you don’t go into Russia. Everybody knows

1381
01:28:38,480 –> 01:28:42,160
this. You don’t. You don’t go to Russia in the

1382
01:28:42,160 –> 01:28:45,480
winter. Sorry. No, no, never,

1383
01:28:45,880 –> 01:28:49,480
never. Everybody knows this. This is. This is

1384
01:28:49,480 –> 01:28:52,759
not anything unusual. They knew this even then. But

1385
01:28:53,000 –> 01:28:56,440
his ego, his ego said, I am Napoleon.

1386
01:28:57,160 –> 01:29:01,000
And Napoleon was the first sort of example

1387
01:29:01,560 –> 01:29:05,300
of, well, you see it in the picture

1388
01:29:05,300 –> 01:29:09,140
of his, of his crowning as emperor where he takes the crown

1389
01:29:09,460 –> 01:29:12,900
from the Pope or from the, from the bishop or whoever it is that’s going

1390
01:29:12,900 –> 01:29:16,420
to crown him and he puts it on his own head himself.

1391
01:29:20,820 –> 01:29:24,260
I mean, there you go. That’s, that’s the guy in a

1392
01:29:24,260 –> 01:29:27,900
nutshell. Like that’s all you need. And then, but

1393
01:29:27,900 –> 01:29:31,240
there’s going. And the thing is the knock on effects from that,

1394
01:29:31,800 –> 01:29:35,240
it is a thunderbolt. So you’re gonna, you’re gonna ride the lightning with that guy.

1395
01:29:35,480 –> 01:29:39,280
And for a while there, for 15. Yeah,

1396
01:29:39,280 –> 01:29:42,520
for 15 years, it was worth it. It was worth it for the French to

1397
01:29:42,520 –> 01:29:43,720
ride the lightning like that.

1398
01:29:46,200 –> 01:29:49,960
But then. Yeah, it’s just, it was hubris ultimately that took them

1399
01:29:49,960 –> 01:29:53,320
down and then weakened. The result of the people.

1400
01:29:53,800 –> 01:29:57,420
Yeah, it was hubris. It was a fair bit of

1401
01:29:57,420 –> 01:30:01,140
narcissism, you know, on Napoleon’s part.

1402
01:30:01,300 –> 01:30:05,140
I also think that the French people fell in love with Napoleon’s ego.

1403
01:30:06,820 –> 01:30:10,580
So it’s not Napoleon the man.

1404
01:30:11,140 –> 01:30:14,420
And, and at this point in, at this point in world history, I mean, 200

1405
01:30:14,420 –> 01:30:18,220
years later, he’s become a symbol of things. Right? So

1406
01:30:18,220 –> 01:30:20,940
he’s no longer a human. He was no longer fully, he’s no longer a fully

1407
01:30:20,940 –> 01:30:24,230
fleshed out human being. He’s. He’s a symbol now. But

1408
01:30:24,710 –> 01:30:28,470
to get to be a symbol, you have to have

1409
01:30:28,790 –> 01:30:32,310
an entire group of people. To point about tribalism earlier, you have to have an

1410
01:30:32,310 –> 01:30:35,750
entire group of people just fall in love with that, with that, that thing.

1411
01:30:35,910 –> 01:30:39,350
And Hugo was in love with. Hugo was in love with Napoleon too,

1412
01:30:39,590 –> 01:30:43,110
you know, until he wasn’t. Until he wasn’t. And then.

1413
01:30:43,910 –> 01:30:47,470
But he still wasn’t able to look at him clear eyed, you know, because it

1414
01:30:47,470 –> 01:30:51,260
comes with all that. Napoleon came with all that baggage. Right. Yeah.

1415
01:30:52,140 –> 01:30:55,900
And I get it, you know, was he a military

1416
01:30:55,900 –> 01:30:59,740
genius or was

1417
01:30:59,740 –> 01:31:03,500
he a person who took advantage of circumstances?

1418
01:31:03,980 –> 01:31:07,740
Well, I can tell you from my study of military history and from sort

1419
01:31:07,740 –> 01:31:10,940
of what I’ve looked at over the long course of time.

1420
01:31:11,820 –> 01:31:14,940
Most people, most commanders who are considered

1421
01:31:14,940 –> 01:31:18,180
geniuses, quite frankly, it’s a combination of,

1422
01:31:18,740 –> 01:31:20,580
of incredible skill,

1423
01:31:22,420 –> 01:31:26,260
focus, ego’s in there. And,

1424
01:31:26,660 –> 01:31:30,419
and nobody likes to hear it, but it’s true luck, right?

1425
01:31:30,419 –> 01:31:33,780
Opportunity. It’s opportunity. Opportunity favors the prepared mind.

1426
01:31:33,940 –> 01:31:37,060
Correct? That’s right. Right. So it was just the right time in history.

1427
01:31:37,540 –> 01:31:39,380
Right. And you can’t,

1428
01:31:41,470 –> 01:31:45,070
I mean, you wouldn’t really want to replicate a guy like Napoleon, but you

1429
01:31:45,070 –> 01:31:48,030
can’t. Anyway, Hitler tried.

1430
01:31:49,470 –> 01:31:53,230
Yeah. And that didn’t work because his ego was.

1431
01:31:53,230 –> 01:31:56,310
Was pushed a different direction. He was being pushed by different. His not being pushed.

1432
01:31:56,310 –> 01:31:58,750
He was seeking to mold different historical forces.

1433
01:32:00,990 –> 01:32:02,750
You know, the.

1434
01:32:05,070 –> 01:32:08,660
The. The other piece about

1435
01:32:08,660 –> 01:32:12,140
this is Waterloo is presented as a

1436
01:32:12,140 –> 01:32:15,860
tragic event. And the

1437
01:32:15,860 –> 01:32:19,620
thing that run the line that runs through all of Les Mis

1438
01:32:19,620 –> 01:32:23,380
is tragedy. And it’s

1439
01:32:23,380 –> 01:32:26,660
not tragic in terms of the way we think of. Like,

1440
01:32:27,140 –> 01:32:30,900
as I said before, we try to psychologize the tragedy

1441
01:32:30,900 –> 01:32:34,490
in our time. Hugo’s not doing any of that. He’s merely

1442
01:32:34,490 –> 01:32:37,250
presenting it as it is and just saying, yes, this is the tragedy.

1443
01:32:39,250 –> 01:32:42,450
Here you go. And that’s. And that’s. And that’s why this book will continue to

1444
01:32:42,450 –> 01:32:46,130
be read for, like, another 200, 300 years. Because

1445
01:32:47,170 –> 01:32:50,930
unlike the Greek, he’s what. What Hugo is doing in the

1446
01:32:50,930 –> 01:32:54,570
best way is doing

1447
01:32:54,570 –> 01:32:58,350
what the Greek classicists do when they present a tragedy. This is

1448
01:32:58,350 –> 01:33:02,150
just the way life is. And who can you appeal

1449
01:33:02,150 –> 01:33:05,430
to? There’s no one to appeal to. This is just life.

1450
01:33:06,230 –> 01:33:09,910
And we are consistently, because of our Christianity

1451
01:33:09,910 –> 01:33:13,749
in America, that’s the thread that runs through all of it. We’re

1452
01:33:13,749 –> 01:33:17,470
consistently trying to find someone to appeal to for the tragedies

1453
01:33:17,470 –> 01:33:21,310
of life. So we talked about homelessness earlier, right, in terms of a

1454
01:33:21,310 –> 01:33:23,670
political problem.

1455
01:33:25,550 –> 01:33:29,350
Now let me talk about it in terms of a human problem. Some

1456
01:33:29,350 –> 01:33:33,070
people are homeless because of tragic circumstances in their

1457
01:33:33,070 –> 01:33:35,870
lives. And even if

1458
01:33:36,990 –> 01:33:40,270
they had different circumstances, which, by the way, we can’t make different

1459
01:33:40,270 –> 01:33:43,990
circumstances for them, but we want to, but wanting isn’t

1460
01:33:43,990 –> 01:33:47,390
enough. Even if they had those different circumstances,

1461
01:33:47,870 –> 01:33:51,720
there’s no guarantee that their life still wouldn’t be a tragedy. This is

1462
01:33:51,720 –> 01:33:55,320
the lottery winner who actually wins the lottery and then a year later is

1463
01:33:55,320 –> 01:33:58,360
broke. That’s because their life is tragic,

1464
01:33:59,720 –> 01:34:03,480
and there’s nothing you can do about it. It’s a series of bad decisions. Yeah,

1465
01:34:03,800 –> 01:34:07,480
sure, yeah. And those. And those bad decisions create the

1466
01:34:07,480 –> 01:34:11,200
tragedies. And until that

1467
01:34:11,200 –> 01:34:15,040
person decides, like

1468
01:34:15,040 –> 01:34:17,650
Jean Valjean did, decides

1469
01:34:18,690 –> 01:34:22,530
with grace or not, we would love it to be with grace. But until that

1470
01:34:22,530 –> 01:34:24,290
person decides to make a different choice,

1471
01:34:27,810 –> 01:34:31,210
it’s going to continue to be a tragedy. So there’s a great character in the

1472
01:34:31,210 –> 01:34:34,890
great American television show of the last, like, 25 years, the

1473
01:34:34,890 –> 01:34:38,610
Wire. There’s a character in there, a drug addict named. Named

1474
01:34:38,610 –> 01:34:42,290
Bubs, right? And Bubs

1475
01:34:42,820 –> 01:34:45,140
is a drug addict. He’s an informer to the cops.

1476
01:34:47,540 –> 01:34:50,820
And, you know, they. They.

1477
01:34:51,460 –> 01:34:54,860
Bub’s arc is one of redemption. He has a

1478
01:34:54,860 –> 01:34:55,700
redemptive arc.

1479
01:34:59,700 –> 01:35:02,940
But there’s A great line he has. I can’t remember what season it’s in. It

1480
01:35:02,940 –> 01:35:06,260
might be in season three of the Wire where he says,

1481
01:35:06,580 –> 01:35:10,130
I believe it’s to the female cop, if I remember correctly, who’s trying to help

1482
01:35:10,130 –> 01:35:13,730
him, try to start him, trying to show that grace. Right. Like the monsignor.

1483
01:35:15,170 –> 01:35:18,130
Yeah. Bubs. Bub says it’s a long way from heaven to here.

1484
01:35:21,730 –> 01:35:24,690
And that’s true for a lot of people.

1485
01:35:25,250 –> 01:35:29,090
Like, if I’m poor,

1486
01:35:29,330 –> 01:35:31,970
I live in the same town as people who are rich.

1487
01:35:33,410 –> 01:35:36,840
So I can go across the tracks to.

1488
01:35:37,800 –> 01:35:41,560
I can’t attend that school, but I can go across the tracks to a school

1489
01:35:41,560 –> 01:35:44,360
where rich kids are attending and stare through the bars.

1490
01:35:45,720 –> 01:35:49,480
No one’s going to stop me. We. We have that freedom of movement. Now.

1491
01:35:49,800 –> 01:35:53,120
Are the cops going to come along and rouse me? Sure. Okay. Yeah. Are they

1492
01:35:53,120 –> 01:35:56,200
going to come along and hassle me? Sure. Yeah. But I can go see it.

1493
01:35:56,440 –> 01:36:00,280
I can go see the vision of that. But how

1494
01:36:00,280 –> 01:36:04,060
many people cross the tracks one way or another to see

1495
01:36:04,060 –> 01:36:07,100
the vision? They don’t. That’s.

1496
01:36:07,660 –> 01:36:11,380
Now, we in our country, in our time, we look at that

1497
01:36:11,380 –> 01:36:15,100
as the fault of reality, and we are seeking to remake

1498
01:36:15,100 –> 01:36:18,060
that through all of our politics and our arguments and our culture,

1499
01:36:18,620 –> 01:36:22,420
because we think that’s not fair and that’s not nice and that’s not

1500
01:36:22,420 –> 01:36:26,060
right. And our biggest sin these days is to not be fair or nice

1501
01:36:26,060 –> 01:36:29,790
or right. But that’s actually not

1502
01:36:29,790 –> 01:36:33,510
what Hugo thinks. I don’t think. I think. Hugo thinks.

1503
01:36:34,070 –> 01:36:37,790
Isn’t it a tragedy that you don’t go across the tracks and

1504
01:36:37,790 –> 01:36:39,270
that’s a period at the end of that sentence.

1505
01:36:41,350 –> 01:36:44,990
Well, there’s. There’s just themes of. About personal

1506
01:36:44,990 –> 01:36:48,350
accountability, choice and. Yeah, choice and

1507
01:36:48,350 –> 01:36:51,110
redemption. And, you know, you can

1508
01:36:52,950 –> 01:36:56,770
grow up in a family of criminals and where that was

1509
01:36:57,170 –> 01:37:00,810
accepted and say, I’m just a criminal, so that’s going to be who I

1510
01:37:00,810 –> 01:37:04,610
am. Or you say, I don’t want to live that life, and I want

1511
01:37:04,610 –> 01:37:08,370
to live, you know, a more moral, empowered life.

1512
01:37:08,370 –> 01:37:11,410
You know, it’s the same thing as, like, a child who’s born to.

1513
01:37:11,730 –> 01:37:15,410
Yeah. Whose father was an alcoholic. And you have

1514
01:37:15,490 –> 01:37:19,130
two children who are born to families with abusive, you know,

1515
01:37:19,130 –> 01:37:22,900
alcoholic fathers. One says, I have no choice but to be

1516
01:37:22,900 –> 01:37:26,460
exactly the same way. And the other says, I’m going to do everything in my

1517
01:37:26,460 –> 01:37:30,220
power to not be that person. And, you know, the

1518
01:37:30,220 –> 01:37:32,980
person who says, I’m going to do everything in my power not to be that

1519
01:37:32,980 –> 01:37:36,620
person, you know, tends to have a Better life

1520
01:37:36,620 –> 01:37:40,380
because they make sets of decisions to not be the

1521
01:37:40,380 –> 01:37:44,020
same as the. To accept a

1522
01:37:44,020 –> 01:37:47,720
certain way because it’s been pushed on them. And then another.

1523
01:37:47,800 –> 01:37:51,480
Yeah, that’s. That was the story arc that valjang

1524
01:37:51,480 –> 01:37:54,600
could have taken. He could have said, well, I’m a criminal. I’m just going to

1525
01:37:54,600 –> 01:37:58,200
be a criminal. Or he said, no, I know that I have that arc of

1526
01:37:58,200 –> 01:38:02,000
love. I’m not going to be a criminal. I’m going to do everything

1527
01:38:02,000 –> 01:38:05,720
in my life to live a virtuous life. You know, so

1528
01:38:06,200 –> 01:38:09,960
what? Well, this is the other. What our country was founded on was the

1529
01:38:09,960 –> 01:38:13,610
empowered, accountable individual who

1530
01:38:13,610 –> 01:38:17,170
could create their own reality. Right. And,

1531
01:38:17,330 –> 01:38:21,050
you know, and we’re trying to be turned into. Well, you

1532
01:38:21,050 –> 01:38:24,450
can’t control it, so we’ll turn to others to help you

1533
01:38:24,690 –> 01:38:28,490
to live a better. A better life as we dictate, as opposed to just

1534
01:38:28,490 –> 01:38:32,130
giving you a place of personal accountability and

1535
01:38:32,450 –> 01:38:36,170
choices that can actually help you to live

1536
01:38:36,170 –> 01:38:39,550
an empowered and thriving life. Well, and, and, and

1537
01:38:39,550 –> 01:38:43,390
Hugo, he as a more Christian right,

1538
01:38:43,710 –> 01:38:46,030
as a. Well, and as a romantic. He.

1539
01:38:50,830 –> 01:38:54,550
Is a romantic. That is the classical liberal view of life. It is

1540
01:38:54,550 –> 01:38:57,990
the classic. Yes, it is the classic. Yes. No, you’re right. It is the classical

1541
01:38:57,990 –> 01:39:01,310
liberal view of life. And a. A

1542
01:39:01,310 –> 01:39:05,110
romantic who is in love with human beings, things exactly as

1543
01:39:05,750 –> 01:39:09,510
people, knows what they’re capable of, that you can thrive no matter what has

1544
01:39:09,510 –> 01:39:13,230
happened to you. Cosette could have also, you know, said,

1545
01:39:13,230 –> 01:39:15,830
you know, I’m just going to be a hooker. I’m going to be a criminal.

1546
01:39:16,230 –> 01:39:20,030
I’m going to eop. No, she didn’t accept. Yeah, well,

1547
01:39:20,030 –> 01:39:23,750
she was given opportunities and she took advantage of those opportunities. Right, Correct.

1548
01:39:23,750 –> 01:39:27,470
Right. A full life. Well, and let me be very

1549
01:39:27,470 –> 01:39:31,110
clear here. Hugo believed in changing the changing of economic.

1550
01:39:32,770 –> 01:39:36,610
I agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That the economy

1551
01:39:37,250 –> 01:39:40,410
had to be better. I mean, this is the other theme with the poverty piece

1552
01:39:40,410 –> 01:39:43,690
that runs through Les Mis is the grinding

1553
01:39:43,690 –> 01:39:47,410
poverty that is causing people to make these decisions has

1554
01:39:47,410 –> 01:39:51,130
to change. And that’s in the best sort of line

1555
01:39:51,130 –> 01:39:54,890
of thinking from the French Revolution on through Hugo’s

1556
01:39:54,890 –> 01:39:58,700
life. Now, on the one hand, he did

1557
01:39:58,700 –> 01:40:02,380
see tragedies as being periods at the end of the sentence.

1558
01:40:02,540 –> 01:40:05,940
He also held intention. This idea that you’re talking about,

1559
01:40:05,940 –> 01:40:09,500
Libby, of the ability of human beings, if they’ve ever are given different

1560
01:40:09,500 –> 01:40:12,980
economic circumstances, to actually triumph. Now, he didn’t have a

1561
01:40:12,980 –> 01:40:16,660
solution as to where those economic circumstances or those economic changes are going to

1562
01:40:16,660 –> 01:40:20,180
come from. He wasn’t a socialist in the way we Think of a

1563
01:40:20,180 –> 01:40:23,830
socialist today. He wasn’t that person. No, he was a

1564
01:40:23,830 –> 01:40:26,310
cat. It was, it was capitalism. Right.

1565
01:40:27,510 –> 01:40:30,710
Purest form. Right, Right. Is to do trade.

1566
01:40:31,030 –> 01:40:33,910
And you know, you can start at small trade

1567
01:40:34,150 –> 01:40:37,870
candlesticks for your machinery. Right. Or build

1568
01:40:37,870 –> 01:40:40,790
a, or build a factory in a town that pays people more than like 3

1569
01:40:40,790 –> 01:40:44,430
cents. Okay. But you do have to, like, you do have to start with that.

1570
01:40:44,430 –> 01:40:48,150
Maslow’s pyramid of needs is. You have to first start with

1571
01:40:48,310 –> 01:40:52,110
just giving people the basics, you know, food, housing, clean water.

1572
01:40:52,590 –> 01:40:56,350
Right, exactly, exactly. Oh, my God. Yeah. The, the filth of

1573
01:40:56,350 –> 01:40:59,710
these that is described in here again, shocking

1574
01:40:59,950 –> 01:41:03,750
conditions. Right. To someone reading this book in, in

1575
01:41:03,750 –> 01:41:07,150
our time, Hugo, though, while he healthy’s intention,

1576
01:41:07,470 –> 01:41:10,830
ultimately was an optimist. I love the line that he said on August 3 in

1577
01:41:10,830 –> 01:41:14,630
his last public address talking about the 20th century. He says, in

1578
01:41:14,630 –> 01:41:18,100
the 20th century, war will be dead. The scaffold will be dead.

1579
01:41:18,100 –> 01:41:21,940
Hatred will be dead. Frontier boundaries will be dead. Dogmas will

1580
01:41:21,940 –> 01:41:23,660
be dead. Man will live.

1581
01:41:28,380 –> 01:41:31,980
That’s optimistic. Yeah, that’s optimistic. Now he

1582
01:41:31,980 –> 01:41:35,500
was, he was. If we look, if we look at the 20th century, just in

1583
01:41:35,500 –> 01:41:39,100
aggregate, he was not correct. Dogmas

1584
01:41:39,100 –> 01:41:42,300
did survive because they’re going to. Because you can’t kill an idea.

1585
01:41:43,560 –> 01:41:47,200
The scaffold not only is not dead, the scaffold is used for a whole variety

1586
01:41:47,200 –> 01:41:50,040
of different things that Hugo would find abominable. I think

1587
01:41:50,840 –> 01:41:54,520
hatred will be dead. Well, there’s a few million, there’s 100 million

1588
01:41:54,520 –> 01:41:58,360
dead people in, you know, from communism that would probably have something to say

1589
01:41:58,360 –> 01:42:02,000
about that. Frontier boundaries will be dead. He’s

1590
01:42:02,000 –> 01:42:05,800
absolutely true about that. We, with the Internet,

1591
01:42:06,120 –> 01:42:09,960
we have, we have pushed the frontier boundaries. Who’s absolutely correct about that?

1592
01:42:10,450 –> 01:42:14,250
Um, war will be dead. No, war is a condition of the human

1593
01:42:14,250 –> 01:42:17,970
heart. And as long as there are human beings who want to

1594
01:42:17,970 –> 01:42:21,490
take stuff that other human beings have, we’re going to have all this, but

1595
01:42:22,050 –> 01:42:25,570
staying with all that. But Hugo was optimistic.

1596
01:42:25,970 –> 01:42:29,010
That’s what romanticism gives you. He was.

1597
01:42:30,450 –> 01:42:34,290
Well, but if you compare, but on a relative basis,

1598
01:42:35,010 –> 01:42:38,770
like it’s been periods of less war and less

1599
01:42:39,070 –> 01:42:42,590
death. Yes. As we had more economic prosperity

1600
01:42:43,390 –> 01:42:46,510
move throughout, across the globe. Yes.

1601
01:42:47,070 –> 01:42:50,590
You know, so there’s a pregnant. And there’s also

1602
01:42:50,750 –> 01:42:54,590
some sort of expectation that

1603
01:42:54,590 –> 01:42:58,150
it’s been set somewhere that there isn’t going to be tragedy in life. Like life

1604
01:42:58,150 –> 01:43:01,950
isn’t going to be easy. And that’s that false promise

1605
01:43:02,590 –> 01:43:05,070
that people give. Like it’s,

1606
01:43:06,940 –> 01:43:09,100
it’s about your ability to weather

1607
01:43:09,900 –> 01:43:13,580
downturns. And still be positive and look

1608
01:43:13,580 –> 01:43:17,260
at the how to turn them into something that you can

1609
01:43:17,260 –> 01:43:20,940
work with as opposed to allowing it to bring you down. Yeah,

1610
01:43:21,100 –> 01:43:24,540
there’s always going to be tragedy, but

1611
01:43:24,700 –> 01:43:28,500
there’s also going to be love. And there’s also going to be, you know,

1612
01:43:28,500 –> 01:43:32,350
happiness and goodness, too. It’s your choice if

1613
01:43:32,350 –> 01:43:35,870
you’re going to allow the tragedy to weigh too

1614
01:43:35,870 –> 01:43:39,590
down or to just find a way to move through

1615
01:43:39,590 –> 01:43:42,390
it. Right, exactly. And that’s where

1616
01:43:43,110 –> 01:43:46,950
Cassette really becomes an interesting character. Right. As we.

1617
01:43:47,030 –> 01:43:50,750
As we turn on this. So we’re not going to cover the whole.

1618
01:43:50,750 –> 01:43:54,550
The whole book today. We’re not going to get anywhere close. So I want to.

1619
01:43:55,270 –> 01:43:59,020
I want to pause there on that thought because I was going to do another

1620
01:43:59,260 –> 01:44:02,940
section, but I think I want to summarize here and wrap

1621
01:44:02,940 –> 01:44:06,580
up. Livy’s been

1622
01:44:06,580 –> 01:44:09,140
very gracious to us with her time, and she’s, like I said before at the

1623
01:44:09,140 –> 01:44:11,900
beginning, she’s a little jet lag. So I want to give her the opportunity to

1624
01:44:12,060 –> 01:44:15,740
go catch some Z’s. And I think we’ve covered a lot of

1625
01:44:15,740 –> 01:44:19,540
waterfront here with what Hugo is doing and what the book is

1626
01:44:19,540 –> 01:44:23,100
doing. Strongly recommend you go out. You pick up. You pick up Les

1627
01:44:23,100 –> 01:44:26,860
Miserable. The Signet Classics unabridged version, which

1628
01:44:26,860 –> 01:44:29,700
is the version I have, is

1629
01:44:30,340 –> 01:44:33,660
1459 pages long. That’s

1630
01:44:33,660 –> 01:44:37,420
1459 pages. So it will take you a year probably,

1631
01:44:37,420 –> 01:44:40,620
if, depending upon how fast a reader you are to go through it, but it

1632
01:44:40,620 –> 01:44:44,380
will not be a waste of your time. It will be amazing. And

1633
01:44:44,380 –> 01:44:48,060
by the way, then you’ll go and see the musical and you’ll go

1634
01:44:48,060 –> 01:44:51,620
watch the movie, and these things will be a lot more resonant for you as

1635
01:44:51,620 –> 01:44:54,780
it was for me. So I’m going to wrap this up by saying this.

1636
01:44:55,500 –> 01:44:58,220
I was at a kid’s recital. Well, not kids recital. I was at a recital.

1637
01:44:58,380 –> 01:45:01,780
So my children go to music school, Right. Because we homeschool our kids and we

1638
01:45:01,780 –> 01:45:05,580
want to give them music. We send

1639
01:45:05,580 –> 01:45:08,540
them to a local music school and we have one in our town. It’s great.

1640
01:45:08,540 –> 01:45:11,980
I’m glad we have it. And I’m more than happy to give them my $300

1641
01:45:11,980 –> 01:45:15,710
a month for my two kids to go learn music. And every

1642
01:45:15,710 –> 01:45:18,310
so often they’ll have recitals. So they have one in the spring, they have one

1643
01:45:18,310 –> 01:45:21,910
in the summer, and they have one in the fall. Okay. And most recitals

1644
01:45:21,910 –> 01:45:25,750
are okay. They’re fine. It’s like going to think of, think of every kid’s

1645
01:45:25,750 –> 01:45:28,950
recital you’ve ever been to at a public school. It’s kind of like that.

1646
01:45:30,709 –> 01:45:33,150
If you have nieces or nephews or cousins or you’ve ever been invited to one,

1647
01:45:33,150 –> 01:45:36,950
you’ll know what I’m talking about. And there are people

1648
01:45:36,950 –> 01:45:40,470
at all kinds of different talent levels at this school doing all kinds of different

1649
01:45:40,470 –> 01:45:44,010
instruments, playing all kinds of different instruments. And, and they, they teach everybody. They teach.

1650
01:45:44,010 –> 01:45:47,370
They even have like a baby toddler class, right? Like a little

1651
01:45:47,370 –> 01:45:49,410
Beethoven class all the way up to

1652
01:45:51,330 –> 01:45:54,930
70, 80, 90 year old people going and taking guitar lessons and

1653
01:45:54,930 –> 01:45:57,570
learning how to play Smoke on the water and stuff because they always wanted to

1654
01:45:57,570 –> 01:46:01,290
do it. Okay, so at this recital, there

1655
01:46:01,290 –> 01:46:04,730
were about, oh, 25 people that were

1656
01:46:04,730 –> 01:46:07,650
performing at the recital and again, kind of all over the map, right?

1657
01:46:08,540 –> 01:46:12,220
And the last lady, the second to the last lady who performed, this woman

1658
01:46:12,460 –> 01:46:16,260
was probably in her 60s and she

1659
01:46:16,260 –> 01:46:19,940
came up and she did a. Her instrument is her voice. So she came

1660
01:46:19,940 –> 01:46:23,420
up and she’s saying she sang the song from

1661
01:46:23,740 –> 01:46:27,580
Les Mis, I have dreamed a dream.

1662
01:46:28,860 –> 01:46:32,380
And I was not

1663
01:46:32,380 –> 01:46:35,500
expecting this at all. This was totally like,

1664
01:46:36,030 –> 01:46:38,670
oh, this is out of the blue. And so

1665
01:46:40,030 –> 01:46:42,870
I was listening to her song and I want to, I want to. I sent

1666
01:46:42,870 –> 01:46:46,190
myself an email because I made a note about this because it opened up a

1667
01:46:46,190 –> 01:46:50,030
door in my head as she was singing and having read the book and having,

1668
01:46:50,110 –> 01:46:52,630
you know, knowing I was going to come on the podcast with Libby today and

1669
01:46:52,630 –> 01:46:55,190
knowing we’re going to be talking about this, it kind of opened up a door

1670
01:46:55,190 –> 01:46:58,870
in my head and, and the, the

1671
01:46:58,870 –> 01:47:02,520
epiphany that I had was this. I’m going to just, just read it directly.

1672
01:47:04,680 –> 01:47:08,120
Unlike contemporary social reformers, I want to close with this idea.

1673
01:47:08,440 –> 01:47:11,960
Hugo saw the ability to be heroic

1674
01:47:12,040 –> 01:47:15,840
despite your circumstances, whether that was poverty or gender or

1675
01:47:15,840 –> 01:47:19,640
ethnicity. Wallace and Ben Hur observed the

1676
01:47:19,640 –> 01:47:23,320
same thing in people. This is the spot where Ben Hur

1677
01:47:23,320 –> 01:47:26,920
and Les Mis cross over. And it is a real

1678
01:47:26,920 –> 01:47:30,700
shame. I think, that the theophany that overwhelms that point in

1679
01:47:30,700 –> 01:47:34,420
Ben Hur and the social reform message that overwhelms the point in

1680
01:47:34,420 –> 01:47:37,700
Les Miserables have blinded people to those

1681
01:47:37,700 –> 01:47:41,540
larger. That larger idea, the idea that you can be

1682
01:47:41,540 –> 01:47:45,219
heroic despite your circumstances. The

1683
01:47:45,219 –> 01:47:49,060
theater and film adaptations of Les Miserables, I think, miss this

1684
01:47:49,060 –> 01:47:52,780
point as well. But we as leaders cannot miss this point.

1685
01:47:53,180 –> 01:47:56,700
Coming out of the chaos of the fourth, turning into the next social, cultural,

1686
01:47:57,090 –> 01:48:00,850
an economic high in the west, we are looking

1687
01:48:00,850 –> 01:48:04,530
for heroes. We are entering an

1688
01:48:04,530 –> 01:48:08,250
age of heroes, I think. But we must defeat the forces

1689
01:48:08,250 –> 01:48:11,410
of vulgarity and Commonness and

1690
01:48:11,410 –> 01:48:14,930
banality. We have to overcome our circumstances.

1691
01:48:16,050 –> 01:48:19,090
And those forces do have a head start. They really do,

1692
01:48:19,810 –> 01:48:23,610
and they insist on themselves. I mean, we saw this in the mayoral election in

1693
01:48:23,610 –> 01:48:27,300
la. We see this in our public life

1694
01:48:27,300 –> 01:48:31,060
all the time. But we must be heroic. And I think this

1695
01:48:31,060 –> 01:48:34,660
is the larger message from Les Mis and the larger message from the books we

1696
01:48:34,660 –> 01:48:38,180
covered this month on the show. We must be heroic in spite of our

1697
01:48:38,180 –> 01:48:41,900
circumstances. Not because of them and not in opposition

1698
01:48:41,900 –> 01:48:45,420
to them, but in spite of them. And this

1699
01:48:45,500 –> 01:48:49,260
is the thing that unlocked in my head when I saw that woman heroically

1700
01:48:49,260 –> 01:48:52,900
belt out. I have dreamed a dream. And it.

1701
01:48:52,980 –> 01:48:56,780
It absolutely blew me away. I mean, my wife was gonna cry when

1702
01:48:56,780 –> 01:49:00,340
she was sitting there. The woman hit. The woman hit. And then. And then.

1703
01:49:01,300 –> 01:49:04,820
Here’s the end of that story. Here’s the close of that. She walked off the

1704
01:49:04,820 –> 01:49:07,500
stage, got the. Gave him all little medals for performing. She got her little medal.

1705
01:49:07,500 –> 01:49:09,660
She walked off the stage. She walked out. I didn’t even see that woman in

1706
01:49:09,660 –> 01:49:13,060
the parking lot. I didn’t see that woman in. In the. In the lobby afterward.

1707
01:49:13,140 –> 01:49:16,770
That woman dropped the mic and beat the street. She

1708
01:49:16,770 –> 01:49:19,490
was out. Stunning performance.

1709
01:49:21,170 –> 01:49:24,930
Absolutely amazing and heroic. Was she

1710
01:49:24,930 –> 01:49:28,730
real? If she wasn’t real, I

1711
01:49:28,730 –> 01:49:29,730
would have had to make her up.

1712
01:49:32,210 –> 01:49:36,010
Great. Final thoughts, Libby, as we close. Oh, yeah. I think

1713
01:49:36,010 –> 01:49:39,610
you. I can’t be anything that you’ve just said. It’s just

1714
01:49:39,610 –> 01:49:43,180
beautiful, right? Just.

1715
01:49:43,660 –> 01:49:46,940
It’s. It’s. Yeah, it was heroism.

1716
01:49:47,420 –> 01:49:50,900
This is what we need. We need more heroism. And everybody has the

1717
01:49:50,900 –> 01:49:53,020
opportunity to be a hero. Everybody does.

1718
01:49:54,460 –> 01:49:58,140
Just everyone has the opportunity to continue to evolve and

1719
01:49:58,140 –> 01:50:01,740
to grow into better versions of themselves. And as you do that,

1720
01:50:01,740 –> 01:50:05,580
you’re modeling, you know, virtuousness

1721
01:50:05,580 –> 01:50:09,430
to the rest of the world. So it’s in our small moments every

1722
01:50:09,430 –> 01:50:13,150
single day that we give hope to others, whether it’s acknowledged

1723
01:50:13,150 –> 01:50:16,270
or not. That’s right. Yeah. That’s the story.

1724
01:50:16,910 –> 01:50:20,590
That’s the story. Well, we will. We will have Libby back. We will. We

1725
01:50:20,590 –> 01:50:23,750
will. I want to talk about cassette. I want to talk about what happens with

1726
01:50:23,750 –> 01:50:27,470
the barricades in the back end of Les Mis. We will

1727
01:50:27,470 –> 01:50:28,910
revisit this. This is going to be one of those

1728
01:50:28,910 –> 01:50:32,770
books,

1729
01:50:35,880 –> 01:50:39,600
Monte Cristo, not probably a little bit later on this

1730
01:50:39,600 –> 01:50:43,200
year. So once again, I would like to thank Libby Unger for coming on our

1731
01:50:43,200 –> 01:50:46,760
show today. Thank you. With that. Well, thank you. You’re welcome. That. Well,

1732
01:50:47,080 –> 01:50:47,720
we’re out

1733
01:50:51,240 –> 01:50:51,630
and.