Leadership Lessons From The Great Books – War and Peace by Leo Tolstoy (Part One) w/Tom Libby

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Hello. My name is Jesan Sorrells, and this is the

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Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast, episode

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number 104 fourth

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our book today, a beast of a book, and we’ve already

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actually intro-ed it. So you can go back and

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listen to episode I believe it’s 82 where we intro-ed this

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book. But it is a beast of a book. I should just say that upfront.

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That spans lifetimes and that stands as the gold

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standard for worldbuilding protohistorical

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narratives. This book is so big, my

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translation comes in at around 1400 pages, not including notes and

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an appendix, that it intimidates even the strongest, most

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confident, and most literate readers. And forget

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business reader and forget leader. It just intimidates

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people. A matter of fact, when I held the book up

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to show to my co host today, I promised

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him I wouldn’t make him read it. And he was relieved. He

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laughed and not in, like, an ironic sort of laughing way. He

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laughed in sort of a, I’m not reading that kind of way. Fortunately fourth

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him, he doesn’t have to. I am doing the reading, and he is providing the

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color commentary today. Along with City of

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God by Augustine of Hippo and the writers, Karmazov by

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Fyodor Dostoevsky. This is one of those books that is so complex and

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multifaceted that it is easier to ignore the book rather than to read

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it. And many people do ignore it, unfortunately,

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or it’s easier to engage with the themes of the book outside of

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the context of the book, rather than actually reading the book itself, which

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a lot of people do that Tom, because it’s hard

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and long and it’s written with complicated Russian

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names. However, I’ve decided to take

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the subsequent years on this podcast because, well, I

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have years to burn, to pull apart this book

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and to examine its themes in the context of leadership. Because to be

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frank, what else are we going to embark upon here at the

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end of the 4th turning? So today

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we are covering the first five chapters of volume

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1, part 1 of war and peace

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by Leo Tolstoy. And

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today I’ve invited our regular host,

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Tom Libby. How are you doing, Tom? I’m

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doing fantastic. Jesan. How are you? Even more fantastic

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that you don’t have to read this book. Even more fantastic. No. I

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I don’t for those I I gotta the I I found this very funny when

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I when Jesan was and I were talking about this. Like, my my my wife

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and and life partner is is a literature major.

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Every time I tell her about the books that Hasan talk and I talk about,

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she goes, why ain’t I ever on that show? How come Haeson has asked me

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to come on? And then I told her we were doing War and Peace today,

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and she went, I saw the movie.

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Bigly enough, I also saw the movie, but I don’t know

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if I watched the same version that she did. So there is a 5

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part filmed in Russia, but

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in French. Interesting version

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on HBO max that you can get. I made it through part

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1. I made it through part 2 and I made it through

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halfway part through a part 3 before I tapped out.

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And each one of those movies is, like, 2 and a half to 3 hours

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long. Oh. It is ridiculously, brutally

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epic. Oh. Oh,

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yeah. In the and and and it’s it it is. It’s shot in French,

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in or no. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. They’re speaking Russian that’s then

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translated into French, and then you have to read the subtitles in English. That’s what

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it is. Okay. So, yeah, the

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the original Russian speakers, but they’re dubbed in French that you read the, you read

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the subtitles. So Interesting.

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It is it is I had never seen anything like and it was shot back

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book, like, the sixties, the sixties seventies. And so

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I never, like, I never heard of this before. I I gotta let her

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know. I’m I guarantee she will watch it, and she’ll watch all 5 parts. I’m

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just letting you know she will watch all 5. She loves this

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stuff. Well, it definitely is

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this is a book that when I tell people about it,

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they go,

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and then they slowly walk away. Like, they slowly back away. And then I show

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it to them and they’re like, my god, sir, why would you wanna read that?

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And then they just they sort of run they sort of run for screaming for

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the hills. And it is a book, I will be honest,

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that I started to try to read when I was about

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15 or 16, and I made it about I made it

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through the first volume, volume 1.

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And then I I moved on to Anna Karenina because I thought that was easier.

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It is a standard for world building. Like, each one of these characters

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in here, we’re gonna talk about the characters today. We’re gonna talk about a bunch

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of different things today. But But each one of these characters is a

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fully realized human being, and we’ll talk about how long it took

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Tolstoy to write this. But they are fully realized human beings. They’re

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not like they’re not they’re not caricatures and they’re not they’re

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not paper dragons. Right? He’s doing something a little bit

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different. He’s trying to he’s trying to tell stories

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about life while

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Napoleon is floating around your continent. And

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we’ll talk a little bit about what that means today too.

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So let me pick up from war

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and peace. I’m gonna pick up in chapter 3. So it’s volume 1,

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part 1, chapter 3. This is how,

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you know, this is an epic book. It has volumes and

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part and then chapters. This

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is how, you know, So Anna Pavlov knows soiree

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was now in full swing. On all sides, the spindles were

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humming away nonstop. Apart from the aunt and her sole companion, an

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elderly lady with a thin careworn face who seemed rather out of place, this brilliant

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society, the company had split into 3 groups. The

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one with most men in it centered around the Abbey, another group of younger

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people was dominated by the beautiful princess Helen or

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Helen, prince Vasili’s daughter, and the pretty little

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princess Volkonsky with her blushing features and a

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figure too full for her young age. Mortimer

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and Anna Pavlona formed part of the 3rd group.

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The viscount was a pleasant looking young man with gentle features and manners

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obviously full of his own importance, but modest enough because of his good

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breeding to indulge any company that he might find himself in.

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And a Pavlovna was clearly showing him off to

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her guests just as a skillful head waiter can pass off

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as supreme delicacy, a cut of beef that would be inedible if

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you’d seated in the filthy kitchen, Anna Pavlovna served up to her

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guests that turning, first the discount, and then the as if they

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were supreme delicacies. By the way, there are lines like that throughout

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this whole entire book. Like, it’s it’s amazing.

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In Mortemart’s group, the conversation had turned to the execution

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of the duke of Eichain. By the way, a lot of the events that

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occur in war and peace are based on historical events that actually

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occurred, in Europe and in Russia in the,

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during the run up to the Crimean war and then during

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the Crimean war and after the Crimean war, which was a knock

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on effect from Bonaparte and everything that had been going on,

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with, with Bonaparte. And so what Tolstoy did was he

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took the events of the Crimean war that he had served

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in, and he sort of went backwards in time and looked at what had

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happened during the Napoleonic wars and then merged a bunch of different different

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different events together. Okay? So anyway,

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this duke of Einhine had been had actually been executed, in,

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in Europe. The viscount held back to the book. The

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viscount held that the duke had perished through his own magnanimity, and there

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were special reasons behind Bonaparte’s animosity towards him.

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Oh, I essays. Do tell us all about it, Viscount, said Anna Pavlovna,

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delighted to feel she had insinuated a touch of Louis 15th

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in the old fashioned French phrase she had used. The viscount gave a

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polite bow and a willing smile. Anna Pavlovna brought them into a

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circle around him and beckoned everyone

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over to hear his story. The viscount was a personal friend of the duke, she

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whispered to one of them and murmured to someone else. The viscount is such a

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good raconteur. By the way, that’s a word I use all the time. Just pause,

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back to the book. To a third person, she said, you see what a man

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of quality. And the viscount was presented in the most refined

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and advantageous light served up like a joint of beef

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garnished with salad on a hot platter. The

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viscount was preparing to launch forth his smile, but subtle. My

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dear Jesan, do come over here, said Anna Pavlofna to the gorgeous

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princess, sitting at the very center of the other group a little way off.

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Princess Helene rose with a smile, the same unchanging beautiful woman smile

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with which she had entered the room with a gentle rustle of her white ball

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ground trimmed with ivy and moss. With her glistening

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white shoulders, glossy hair, and sparkling diamonds, she moved between the men

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as they stepped aside to make way for her without looking anyone in the

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face, beaming at the company in general and apparently bestowing permission for everyone

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to admire her wonderful figure, her full shoulders and her fashionably

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exposed bosom and back, she glided up to Anna Pavlovna and the

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brilliance of the ballroom seemed to come with her. Helene was so

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exquisite that she not only avoided the slightest hint of flirtatiousness,

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she even seemed to be embarrassed by the all too evident truly devastating

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beauty that was hers. It was as if she wanted to tone down the effect

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of her beauty, but couldn’t do so. What a beautiful woman,

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said everyone who saw her. The viscount shrugged and looked down as if

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transfixed by a mysterious force as she arranged herself to sit

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before him, not sparing him that ever dazzling smile.

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Madam, I doubt my abilities in front of such an audience, he said,

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bowing with a smile. The princess rested her round bare

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arm on a little table and found it unnecessary to say anything.

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She smiled and she waited. Sitting up straight through the Viscount

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story, she glanced down occasionally either at her beautiful round arm so

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casually draped across the table fourth at her still lovelier bosom and the

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diamond necklace above it that kept needing adjustment. Several

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times, she also adjusted the folds of her gown. And whenever the narrative made a

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strong impact on the audience, she would glance across at Anna Pavlovna

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in order to imitate whatever expression she could see written on the

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maid of honor’s face before resuming her

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radiant smile.

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That little piece right there proves that something for women on only

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fans didn’t just start with the Internet.

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That’s been going on for a while. Ladies and gentlemen,

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When I read this piece and I read what Anna Pavlovna,

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who is the, hostess of

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this party, When I read what

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she set up. Right? And I will talk about

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why war and peace opens with a party because that’s what it does in a

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minute. I off I think of the the line from Ozzy Osbourne and War

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Pigs. Generals gather in their masses just like

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witches at black masses.

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Everybody’s getting together. And Anna Pavlovna,

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in the days before mass communication,

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Anna Pavlovna was one of the many people in

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polite Russian society and, of course, impolite Russian society

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from the highest sort of discounts and princes

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and dukes all the way down to Tom, well, the

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lowest peasant who would get together to

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exchange information because they didn’t have telephones

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and they only had letters. Right? And so

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parties were opportunities to mold statecraft, but they

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were also opportunities to perform in person Everything that people

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perform now on their smartphones.

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All the technology has done is make it go quicker.

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And just as on our smartphones and on the Internet, one of the things that

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strikes you in this first the first three or fourth chapters of

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war and peace is how much women have controlled the flow of

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information throughout the course of human history and

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have wielded great influence over communication channels at

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aristocratic levels, as they do even

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now in our post industrialized time. And many of

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them just like Anna Pavlovna, organized their troops.

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They resupplied and shored up defensive positions in conversations

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and in general behaved like they controlled everything

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because they did. At least

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in the domestic party sphere, they did.

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So I guess the place to start with Tom here,

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because I just realized I didn’t have any questions for him in the script

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because it’s been that kind of last 2 weeks. I did notice that

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when I read through it. I was like, wow. So you just had me on

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for my pretty face. There you go. That’s right.

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What do we think of, War and peace? I know. I know. I know. You

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haven’t actually read the book. You’ve had other people next to you read the book.

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But what are your impressions been of this book when

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you’ve heard about it and Anna Pavlovna’s party and,

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the princess Helene’s, gloriously arrayed bosoms.

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Okay. Well, I’m not talking about bosoms, but I did you know, I I will

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be honest with you though. There was one thing that caught my attention when you

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were reading that, and I didn’t understand what they meant when they

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said full shoulders. I think they mean

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fully exposed. Okay. That makes more sense. But I was trying to

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figure out, like, I was trying to figure out what the Oh, they’re not doing

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lifts. They’re not, like, doing shoulder lifts. They’re they weren’t going to the gym. They

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weren’t crushing it. Yeah. Like, what are they like, as versus,

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like, versus, like, were they trying to say she was a heavier woman because

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she wasn’t petite? That anyway, I was trying to she was not

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a little woman. Yes. I I do grant I will I will yes.

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Because But I because Tolstoy says round arms.

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Right. Right. Okay. So, you know and back in the day, this is also

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something that’s very helpful to understand this book. Back in the day and the only

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reason I know this is because I was an art major. I studied a lot

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about this crap in college. But if you’re,

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if the women that you were responsible for as

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a band were,

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how could we put it in our Tom? We’re,

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more fully figured. That was a sign of

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wealth. That was a sign of success. Right? So as you moved up the

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aristocratic chain, people should be eating

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better and sitting around more and having more of these

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drawing books slash party type conversations. And so that was a sign you were

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doing well. It is only in our era that as you go

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further up the aristocratic line, everybody is thin and

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rich. So I so

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the other thought the other thought that came across my my head

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was was, you know, kinda

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you’re talking about the the the party. People I don’t

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think people realize how much

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the when you talk about the women controlling the in the flow of information.

256
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Right? Mhmm. Yep. The subtleties behind that,

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which, by the way, still exist today, just so you know. Oh,

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yeah. So when when you know, you know, like, when

259
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your wife says, it would be really you know what Libby it would be it

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wouldn’t it be nice if the room if we could paint the room a different

261
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color? I think the room would look so much better yellow, and you go,

262
00:16:36.430 –> 00:16:39.389
alright. I guess I’m painting the room yellow. She didn’t essays, oh, paint the room

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yellow. She just made the suggestion. So anyway, back back in those times when they’re

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like, oh, did you you and so and so you should talk to so and

265
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so. I’m sure you’d have wonderful conversation. That was

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like that was like code. Right? Like Oh, yeah.

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That you I want you to go talk to this person because the information that

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the 2 of you have is gonna be impactful to each other in some way,

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shape, or form. And I think I think the funny thing is

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is some of these human behaviors, regardless of

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whether they’re on your smartphone or not, we still we

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still deploy in a certain way. Mhmm. We still do this in

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certain in certain fashions. So Oh, well, when when when the book

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opens, Anna Pavlovna, before she even is

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having her party, she is,

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how could I put it? She’s buttonholed

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by a, by the first person to arrive at her soiree,

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prince prince of Vasili, Kuragin, a man of

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high rank and influence. And so the prince comes in. He

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starts talking to her in French, and,

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and there’s a they have a political discussion,

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about emperor Alexander and about, about

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Napoleon, and she very

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carefully manipulates him. And Tolstoy does a

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00:18:07.750 –> 00:18:11.415
good job of showing this. That’s a hard word.

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Maneuvers him, in the conversation

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into really asking what he really asking what he really wants to ask for,

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which is a favor for, you know, one of his relatives. I believe it’s his

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son. One of his relatives, and she has access to

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the people that can grant him the favor, and that’s the only reason that

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he showed up to the party. And she knows it and he knows it, but

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00:18:34.020 –> 00:18:37.700
no one’s saying it out loud. Yeah. Yeah. Well

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00:18:37.860 –> 00:18:41.554
and I think I think back then, we were a little better a little better

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at reading the room, so to speak, like, fourth like, what you just said. Right?

295
00:18:45.075 –> 00:18:48.674
So in today’s world in today’s world, I think we’re just a bit more direct.

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Right? Yeah. Nissan, I’d I’d you know, actually,

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a a a a a joint colleague that we have Mhmm. I was talking to

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a couple of weeks ago, so I know your audience doesn’t know Kevin, but so

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00:19:00.495 –> 00:19:03.935
I was talking to Kevin a couple of weeks ago, and I was like, listen.

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00:19:03.935 –> 00:19:06.495
I would really like you to talk to my son because he needs some straightening

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00:19:06.495 –> 00:19:09.379
out, and he’s not listening to me. And I know he’ll listen to you because

302
00:19:09.379 –> 00:19:13.059
of your because of your area of expertise and what the question is

303
00:19:13.059 –> 00:19:16.659
about. Right? And and, like, I’m just more we’re just more direct about that

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today because we don’t have that I’m not sure if we don’t have it

305
00:19:20.395 –> 00:19:23.855
anymore fourth we don’t need it anymore or we I I don’t know what the

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00:19:24.075 –> 00:19:27.110
the the no the not part of this is, but we just don’t do it

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00:19:27.110 –> 00:19:30.870
anymore. We don’t have that subtle that subtle, you know, like,

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00:19:30.870 –> 00:19:34.685
to your point, like, he only went there because he had a favor to ask,

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00:19:34.685 –> 00:19:38.125
and he just asked it in a in a way that that she she

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00:19:38.125 –> 00:19:41.725
maneuvered him over. Right? So we don’t have an equivalent of that

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00:19:41.725 –> 00:19:45.360
today, especially in social media. We’re calling people out left and right, and we’re

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00:19:45.360 –> 00:19:48.640
just calling right on the carpet. We’ll just it’s just we do well, I think

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00:19:48.640 –> 00:19:52.000
I I think you’re right. In social media, we don’t have the equivalent of sort

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of that

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00:19:55.585 –> 00:19:59.265
indirect Book, because we have less fear too. We would say we

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00:19:59.265 –> 00:20:01.825
say so many things on social media. We would never say it to somebody in

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00:20:01.825 –> 00:20:04.520
person. Sure. Well, you and I have this conversation,

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00:20:05.780 –> 00:20:08.900
or no. You and I didn’t have it. John Hill, another guest of mine. John

319
00:20:08.900 –> 00:20:12.695
Hill, we talked about the way of the samurai. And

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00:20:12.914 –> 00:20:16.674
one of the by Inuzonotobi. And Inuzonotobi was

321
00:20:16.674 –> 00:20:19.894
a Japanese writer in the early 20th century

322
00:20:20.434 –> 00:20:24.019
who wrote about, how the samurai had developed and the

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rules of being a samurai in Japan during a time when the

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samurai were basically dead and done.

325
00:20:31.415 –> 00:20:35.175
And one of the points that Natoby made was, and we actually talked about it,

326
00:20:35.175 –> 00:20:37.272
John and I talked about it on podcast,

327
00:20:38.800 –> 00:20:42.400
It was about how the samurai or maybe it was all of

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00:20:42.400 –> 00:20:45.920
Japanese society was more polite even in the early 20th

329
00:20:45.920 –> 00:20:49.534
century than the west because the Libby went back and forth right after

330
00:20:49.534 –> 00:20:53.054
World War 1, trying to store

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00:20:53.054 –> 00:20:56.860
up US Jesan relationships, right, and relations.

332
00:20:56.920 –> 00:21:00.520
And he married an American woman and, you know, so he got to see both

333
00:21:00.520 –> 00:21:03.880
sides of that both sides of that that coin. And so John and I talked

334
00:21:03.880 –> 00:21:07.054
about this idea of politeness in the context of social media.

335
00:21:07.675 –> 00:21:11.275
We have, and I made the point and I’ll make it here. We’ve

336
00:21:11.275 –> 00:21:13.695
lost what it means to be polite.

337
00:21:15.970 –> 00:21:19.730
Part of it is, and I made this point again on that on

338
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that other episode, Part of it is

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00:21:23.115 –> 00:21:26.555
because of the behavior that we’ve allowed to occur on social

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00:21:26.555 –> 00:21:29.775
media that has now spilled into our real life communication,

341
00:21:31.480 –> 00:21:35.240
We’ve sort of abandoned that, but, and you see

342
00:21:35.240 –> 00:21:37.740
this with Anna Pavlovna and her party.

343
00:21:39.585 –> 00:21:43.425
I think in general, historically, as an American culture, we’ve

344
00:21:43.425 –> 00:21:46.945
always looked at politeness as one of those things that was just sort

345
00:21:46.945 –> 00:21:50.700
of aristocratic and European

346
00:21:50.840 –> 00:21:54.679
and pointless. It’s almost like politeness is is

347
00:21:54.679 –> 00:21:58.455
equivalent to weakness at certain in certain facets, not

348
00:21:58.455 –> 00:22:02.295
all, but at certain Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Especially when you’re talking

349
00:22:02.295 –> 00:22:06.080
about the the building of capitalism on top of on top

350
00:22:06.080 –> 00:22:09.760
of the American politics. Right? Like, that’s Right. So politeness is

351
00:22:09.760 –> 00:22:12.480
kind of a weakness because you they want you to be direct and they want

352
00:22:12.480 –> 00:22:16.115
you to just, you know, you’re you’re supposed to go a 100 miles an

353
00:22:16.115 –> 00:22:19.955
hour full steam ahead, and politeness doesn’t really lead way to that. Well, and

354
00:22:19.955 –> 00:22:23.710
this is part the trouble that people modern people have with understanding the civil war.

355
00:22:24.250 –> 00:22:27.955
Like so modern people don’t understand the American civil war.

356
00:22:28.434 –> 00:22:31.794
And I and I, again, I can bring this up in the context of, war

357
00:22:31.794 –> 00:22:35.414
and peace because Tolstoy was writing during a period of time when,

358
00:22:36.034 –> 00:22:39.779
the emancipation of the serfs, was occurring at Russia, and that occurred

359
00:22:39.779 –> 00:22:43.460
in 18/61. While the emancipation of our slaves occurred in

360
00:22:43.460 –> 00:22:47.235
18/63, except ours occurred during the course

361
00:22:47.235 –> 00:22:50.755
of a war. Theirs occurred during a during a time

362
00:22:50.755 –> 00:22:53.575
of, aristocratic

363
00:22:54.560 –> 00:22:58.260
and, what do you call it? The royal

364
00:22:58.560 –> 00:23:02.395
upheaval in Russia. 2 different

365
00:23:02.455 –> 00:23:06.055
contexts, right, for to solve the same problem in

366
00:23:06.055 –> 00:23:08.955
essence. But

367
00:23:10.380 –> 00:23:13.040
in our time fourth not in our time, in our history,

368
00:23:14.060 –> 00:23:16.000
thus, the idea of a southern gentleman.

369
00:23:18.115 –> 00:23:21.055
Right. Which even that face you just made right there, even that smirk right writers.

370
00:23:22.195 –> 00:23:25.175
Like that’s an anathema to us. Now we don’t

371
00:23:25.650 –> 00:23:29.490
understand why people defended slavery from

372
00:23:29.490 –> 00:23:33.255
the perspective of Southern honor. We have zero understanding of that now.

373
00:23:33.575 –> 00:23:37.115
And we also really don’t understand why people would go to war for honor.

374
00:23:38.295 –> 00:23:42.080
But that’s the furthest end of going to war for politeness, going to war to

375
00:23:42.080 –> 00:23:45.520
preserve our polite culture. They had the southerners, by the way, said that about the

376
00:23:45.520 –> 00:23:48.159
northerners. If you go back and look at reading what they said, they’re like, no,

377
00:23:48.159 –> 00:23:51.855
you people are rude. You’re rude and you’re disrespectful, and we’re

378
00:23:51.855 –> 00:23:55.535
gonna teach you a lesson. We’re gonna thump you so hard that

379
00:23:55.535 –> 00:23:58.835
you’ll never come back down here and be rude and disrespectful ever again.

380
00:24:00.659 –> 00:24:04.419
Now the Fourth responded to that by saying, to your point about

381
00:24:04.419 –> 00:24:08.120
capitalism, we’ll just use capitalism in industry. How about that?

382
00:24:10.615 –> 00:24:14.375
And that was what fundamental one of the fundamental threads

383
00:24:14.375 –> 00:24:18.170
that was underneath the civil war. But I think that those threads still

384
00:24:18.170 –> 00:24:21.929
exist underneath America today. I don’t think they’ve gone anywhere. No, I

385
00:24:21.929 –> 00:24:25.775
don’t. I agree. Have you ever

386
00:24:25.775 –> 00:24:28.174
been to a party like that, by the way? I’ve been to parties like that

387
00:24:28.174 –> 00:24:31.934
before. Fourth been to a party like that? I have. Everybody knows

388
00:24:31.934 –> 00:24:35.740
why they’re there, but nobody’s saying it out loud? So I I have.

389
00:24:36.040 –> 00:24:39.240
And, you know, the odd is I found it to be one of the most

390
00:24:39.240 –> 00:24:42.600
odd it was a Teamsters union

391
00:24:42.600 –> 00:24:46.195
party. Oh my. Okay. Yeah. So it

392
00:24:46.195 –> 00:24:50.034
was Teamsters, and I found it first of all, why was I

393
00:24:50.034 –> 00:24:53.235
there? I I I found it very odd that I was there in the first

394
00:24:53.235 –> 00:24:56.312
place. And I for for books

395
00:24:56.820 –> 00:25:00.419
here, it was it was a it was like a gala event that they were

396
00:25:00.419 –> 00:25:04.205
looking for. It wasn’t strictly Teamsters there. It was like

397
00:25:04.205 –> 00:25:07.804
Teamsters, their families, and so on. So it was like fundraiser. Like, it was all

398
00:25:07.804 –> 00:25:11.565
these things all wrapped up into 1. But if you just sat there and

399
00:25:11.565 –> 00:25:15.140
you read the room, you know for a fact certain

400
00:25:15.140 –> 00:25:18.900
people were there for a very particular reason. And,

401
00:25:18.900 –> 00:25:22.365
like, this person had to meet this person. I saw some people from our,

402
00:25:22.925 –> 00:25:25.745
our our, state government offices there.

403
00:25:26.648 –> 00:25:30.045
Jesan, I’m not saying anything good, bad, or indifferent about the Teamsters Union. I’m just

404
00:25:30.045 –> 00:25:32.510
saying that I I know for a fact that there were certain people from the

405
00:25:32.510 –> 00:25:35.870
governor’s office that was there because certain people from the Teamsters Union was going to

406
00:25:35.870 –> 00:25:39.230
be there. And I could see them going off into corners of the rooms and

407
00:25:39.230 –> 00:25:43.065
stuff, and I was like, So this is

408
00:25:43.065 –> 00:25:46.745
real. Like, this that’s all it’s the

409
00:25:46.745 –> 00:25:50.330
only thing that went Tom my head was like Everything I ever saw in Donnie

410
00:25:50.330 –> 00:25:54.010
Brasco was actually true. I’m just gonna bite my

411
00:25:54.010 –> 00:25:56.890
tongue and bite my lip and whatever else I have to make leaders so I

412
00:25:56.890 –> 00:26:00.645
don’t say anything. So so okay. Okay. So so in those kinds of

413
00:26:00.645 –> 00:26:03.705
situations, I’ve been in I’ve been at that kind of party before as well.

414
00:26:04.725 –> 00:26:08.529
You’re you’re hyper aware of where you’re sitting in the hierarchy.

415
00:26:08.830 –> 00:26:12.610
Oh, sure. Yes. And you’re hyper aware also of where not to screw up.

416
00:26:12.909 –> 00:26:15.735
And you don’t, but but but you’re but then you have to balance that with

417
00:26:15.735 –> 00:26:19.195
the idea that you have no clue where you could screw up. Yeah.

418
00:26:21.440 –> 00:26:24.240
Yeah. You could screw up just by going over and talking to the wrong person,

419
00:26:24.240 –> 00:26:26.420
and you have no idea that you just screwed up.

420
00:26:29.200 –> 00:26:32.935
I don’t know what to do with that. But but, again, I think that those

421
00:26:32.935 –> 00:26:36.695
dynamics still exist, still exist. You know? I I think in

422
00:26:36.695 –> 00:26:40.200
certain environments, I think, like, when you’re I think, you know, where I see it

423
00:26:40.200 –> 00:26:43.640
sometimes, I again, I I brought up this one particular, but I’ve been to others

424
00:26:43.640 –> 00:26:47.260
that were not so drastic. Right? Yeah. They still it still exist.

425
00:26:47.400 –> 00:26:51.145
A lot of charitable galas are like this

426
00:26:51.145 –> 00:26:54.825
today. It’s very who’s there? Who’s

427
00:26:55.065 –> 00:26:58.850
who was invited that didn’t show up and that’s, not, like, noticeable. Right?

428
00:26:58.850 –> 00:27:02.690
Like and there’s some there’s some caveats to all that and who knows

429
00:27:02.690 –> 00:27:06.505
it and who notices it and who I I definitely think in

430
00:27:06.505 –> 00:27:10.185
that in that nonprofit gala

431
00:27:10.185 –> 00:27:13.740
world, that’s still very strong. I I think that is it’s I think it’s

432
00:27:13.740 –> 00:27:17.200
actually very strong comparatively speaking to other parties.

433
00:27:18.059 –> 00:27:21.280
So let me ask this last question. So in our egalitarian

434
00:27:21.659 –> 00:27:25.415
time when everybody can be everybody can

435
00:27:25.415 –> 00:27:28.775
be everything and anything and anybody can choose to be whatever it is they wanna

436
00:27:28.775 –> 00:27:32.610
be and we’re all egalitarian. Okay. Fine. It’s still women

437
00:27:32.610 –> 00:27:35.990
running that system. Oh, yes. Yes.

438
00:27:38.690 –> 00:27:41.745
It’s like, I’ll tell you if I’m going to that party

439
00:27:42.925 –> 00:27:46.445
and it’s a gala for a nonprofit and I’ve been

440
00:27:46.445 –> 00:27:50.240
invited for a very specific reason, I got to admit,

441
00:27:50.299 –> 00:27:53.740
I’m not going to the dude who’s the executive director. He doesn’t know

442
00:27:53.740 –> 00:27:57.179
anything. Yeah. I’m going to the woman who planned the

443
00:27:57.179 –> 00:28:00.975
party. Right. Yeah. And I’m going to ask her why am I here?

444
00:28:01.275 –> 00:28:05.115
Like, what do you want? That’s the directness part. Why am I here?

445
00:28:05.115 –> 00:28:08.590
What do you want me to do? And, of course, you know, if you’re

446
00:28:08.590 –> 00:28:12.130
in a a a southern situation, they’ll just tell you, oh, sugar,

447
00:28:12.830 –> 00:28:16.644
just go ahead and enjoy yourself, which that means you better be on your better

448
00:28:16.644 –> 00:28:19.625
be on your p’s and q’s. Bless your heart.

449
00:28:20.725 –> 00:28:24.299
That’s right. It doesn’t really mean by the way, for our Yankee listeners, it doesn’t

450
00:28:24.299 –> 00:28:27.299
mean bless your heart. But It doesn’t mean anything good. Let me just say that.

451
00:28:27.299 –> 00:28:30.159
It doesn’t mean anything good. Okay.

452
00:28:30.914 –> 00:28:34.595
One last question. How do leaders read the room? How does a leader read the

453
00:28:34.595 –> 00:28:37.794
room if they’re in a if they’re in a room full of Teamsters or a

454
00:28:37.794 –> 00:28:41.320
room full of nonprofit gala driven apparatchiks,

455
00:28:42.180 –> 00:28:45.380
and have no idea why they’re there, how do how does a leader read the

456
00:28:45.380 –> 00:28:49.095
room? Because many leaders struggle with this, particularly high performing leaders who tend

457
00:28:49.095 –> 00:28:52.855
to be, I think, a little bit more on the spectrum towards autism fourth

458
00:28:52.855 –> 00:28:56.554
maybe even towards Asperger’s and maybe don’t don’t

459
00:28:57.050 –> 00:29:00.750
pick up those social clues nearly as quickly, but they’re really hypercompetent

460
00:29:00.970 –> 00:29:04.410
at what they do. How does a leader because this is a real challenge question.

461
00:29:04.410 –> 00:29:08.174
How does a leader read the room like that? I well, first first

462
00:29:08.174 –> 00:29:11.294
of all, I think it starts way before that. I think I think if you’re

463
00:29:11.294 –> 00:29:14.950
invited to that type of environment and you’re a leader, the 2 you

464
00:29:15.110 –> 00:29:18.950
there are 2 things you need to do before you even get there, is you

465
00:29:18.950 –> 00:29:22.105
need to know the the guest list and who’s gonna be there ahead of time

466
00:29:22.184 –> 00:29:25.725
so you can then go look at them, find them out,

467
00:29:26.025 –> 00:29:29.785
search them online, understand who they are. If you’re in that environment, you need to

468
00:29:29.785 –> 00:29:32.750
know what you’re walking into way before you go you even have an opportunity to

469
00:29:32.750 –> 00:29:36.430
read the room. Once you get there, then it’s

470
00:29:36.430 –> 00:29:40.184
really matter and by the way, doing that, knowing the guest

471
00:29:40.184 –> 00:29:43.705
list and then being able to check them out online, you should have a

472
00:29:44.025 –> 00:29:47.460
you yourself should have a pretty good idea of why you’re

473
00:29:47.919 –> 00:29:51.600
there based on who’s also there. Right? So there’s gonna be there’s gonna be

474
00:29:51.600 –> 00:29:55.034
sure tell signs where again, if you’re a a CEO of a Fourth

475
00:29:55.280 –> 00:29:58.804
500 company and there are 20 other CEOs of Fortune 500 companies there,

476
00:29:58.945 –> 00:30:02.725
you’re in good company with yourself because you’re not that’s what they’re targeting.

477
00:30:02.784 –> 00:30:06.434
Right? So you probably already know half these people because you’re watching that

478
00:30:06.434 –> 00:30:10.059
Fourth 500 Libby, and you’re you’re following them fourth, you know,

479
00:30:10.059 –> 00:30:13.885
whether it’s on x or you’re following them on on LinkedIn or whatever. You’re

480
00:30:13.885 –> 00:30:17.005
signed up for their newsletter for crying out loud. You you might even invest in

481
00:30:17.005 –> 00:30:20.545
some of their companies. Whatever. But you’re gonna have you’re gonna have a better understanding

482
00:30:20.605 –> 00:30:24.180
of not how do you read the room,

483
00:30:24.180 –> 00:30:27.940
but where and why you’re reading the room is way more relevant at that point.

484
00:30:27.940 –> 00:30:31.745
Right? So you’re gonna go in and and again so

485
00:30:31.745 –> 00:30:35.424
I did this, that gala that I was talking to you about. I was

486
00:30:35.424 –> 00:30:39.265
kinda my my brother-in-law was a Teamster, so that’s and

487
00:30:39.265 –> 00:30:43.080
he was somewhere in the he was not in charge. Don’t get

488
00:30:43.080 –> 00:30:46.360
me wrong. But he was not a he was not just a regular, I’m paying

489
00:30:46.360 –> 00:30:49.105
my dues kinda guy. I don’t know what the I don’t know what the I

490
00:30:49.105 –> 00:30:51.424
don’t know what the layers are in there, but he was somewhere up in the

491
00:30:51.424 –> 00:30:54.865
middle of the layer of of hierarchy. Not important

492
00:30:54.865 –> 00:30:58.549
enough to mention is, I guess, my point. Right? But, again, when I was invited

493
00:30:58.549 –> 00:31:00.710
to this thing, I was like, oh, so who’s gonna be there? And he’s like,

494
00:31:00.710 –> 00:31:04.221
I have no idea. And so I went to the the event page, the the

495
00:31:04.221 –> 00:31:07.915
the the website, the web URL page that they had, and I

496
00:31:07.915 –> 00:31:11.350
started looking at what type of event it was and all the guest

497
00:31:11.350 –> 00:31:14.950
speakers. Now the who the guest speakers were were gonna tell me who else was

498
00:31:14.950 –> 00:31:18.230
gonna be in the room. Right? So, again, like I mentioned, people from the governor’s

499
00:31:18.230 –> 00:31:22.045
office, economic development people were gonna be there. So I’m like, oh,

500
00:31:22.045 –> 00:31:25.565
okay. Now I have an an idea of the types of

501
00:31:25.565 –> 00:31:28.919
personalities that are gonna be in the room. And I, by the way,

502
00:31:29.220 –> 00:31:32.020
am not a teamster. I’m not in the union at all. I have no idea

503
00:31:32.020 –> 00:31:35.035
who any of these people are. So my role was simply just to be there

504
00:31:35.035 –> 00:31:38.235
and shut up. Like, really, honestly, just be there and be be a fly on

505
00:31:38.235 –> 00:31:41.835
the wall. My I’m I’m I’m a guest of my brother-in-law, so I’m I’m

506
00:31:41.835 –> 00:31:45.549
there as a guest. So when I started reading The Room, I was

507
00:31:45.549 –> 00:31:49.230
more, like, fascinated about, oh, that person’s talking to that person. I didn’t

508
00:31:49.230 –> 00:31:52.805
know that govern I didn’t know that aide knew that person. I

509
00:31:52.965 –> 00:31:56.745
so I started looking at it from that perspective, and then I the introductions

510
00:31:56.805 –> 00:32:00.330
that I made to myself from from myself to other people were very minimal. I

511
00:32:00.330 –> 00:32:03.850
was very calculated on who I actually spoke Tom, kinda to your point

512
00:32:03.850 –> 00:32:07.450
earlier about, like, you don’t wanna make the mistake, right, of talking to the wrong

513
00:32:07.450 –> 00:32:11.225
person. So I I kind of avoided Teamster people and went straight to

514
00:32:11.365 –> 00:32:14.804
the economic development people. Like, I wanted Tom I I was like, okay. So now

515
00:32:14.804 –> 00:32:18.380
I know who that is. I I was very very calculated about who

516
00:32:18.620 –> 00:32:22.299
I didn’t need to meet everybody in the room. I was only book I was

517
00:32:22.299 –> 00:32:25.675
I was looking to meet 2 or 3 people that I thought would be

518
00:32:25.675 –> 00:32:29.355
impactful to my career or my company at the Tom, the the company

519
00:32:29.355 –> 00:32:33.010
that I owned at the time. So I think to your to your

520
00:32:33.010 –> 00:32:36.690
point, how do they read the room? It’s re it’s it’s way ahead of that.

521
00:32:36.690 –> 00:32:39.730
They have to readers. They have to research. They have to know. They have to

522
00:32:39.730 –> 00:32:43.055
understand. And then they they should have some sort of mission in their brain as

523
00:32:43.055 –> 00:32:46.015
to who they want. Now that being said, that doesn’t mean that the other side

524
00:32:46.015 –> 00:32:49.470
of the coin doesn’t impact you. And people that are doing the same thing that

525
00:32:49.470 –> 00:32:52.550
really wanna meet you, they may not be on your radar. So you gotta plan

526
00:32:52.670 –> 00:32:55.635
you have to actually account for some of that as well and make sure you

527
00:32:55.635 –> 00:32:59.475
leave some time to for people to come to you and and versus you

528
00:32:59.475 –> 00:33:03.260
just constantly being on the on the on the take on the It

529
00:33:03.260 –> 00:33:07.020
is interesting that with, like, more and more like, with the with the

530
00:33:07.020 –> 00:33:10.615
saturation of social media that we have with people just entertaining

531
00:33:10.615 –> 00:33:14.375
and engaging and and and all of that and and connecting, I guess, with each

532
00:33:14.375 –> 00:33:18.055
other, we’ve had a decline in the ability of people to be able to

533
00:33:18.055 –> 00:33:21.810
network effectively. Sure. And I

534
00:33:21.810 –> 00:33:25.490
think it’s because we have also forgotten we’ve had it because we have that

535
00:33:25.490 –> 00:33:29.225
we’ve had that subsequent decline in doing your research, preparing

536
00:33:29.284 –> 00:33:32.904
with due diligence, and then, of course,

537
00:33:32.965 –> 00:33:36.500
being polite in reading the room, you know, and

538
00:33:36.500 –> 00:33:40.259
understanding what that what that politeness is. We’ve had decline in all

539
00:33:40.259 –> 00:33:44.025
those skill sets, and then I think we need to I I think

540
00:33:44.025 –> 00:33:47.545
those are the skill sets that separate people who are

541
00:33:47.545 –> 00:33:51.280
just Tom your point about your your brother-in-law at the time, people

542
00:33:51.280 –> 00:33:54.160
who are just worker bees versus people who are in the hierarchy versus people who

543
00:33:54.160 –> 00:33:58.000
are actually running stuff. It’s those skill sets of networking that kind

544
00:33:58.000 –> 00:34:00.144
of that make that separation. Alright.

545
00:34:02.044 –> 00:34:05.884
Good advice. Back to the book, back to war and peace.

546
00:34:05.884 –> 00:34:08.670
So we’re gonna pick up here with, in volume 1 part 1, we’re going to

547
00:34:08.670 –> 00:34:11.250
pick up a chapter 6 at a,

548
00:34:12.350 –> 00:34:15.869
well, I’m going to pick up a chapter 6 with a,

549
00:34:18.735 –> 00:34:22.335
with an example one of 2 examples that we’re gonna talk about today. An

550
00:34:22.335 –> 00:34:24.755
example of human, inadequacy.

551
00:34:27.619 –> 00:34:31.460
You only have 2. Oh, I only have 2. Fourth it’s early in

552
00:34:31.460 –> 00:34:35.304
the book. It’s early in the 1400 pages. I’ve only got 2. It’s early. Got

553
00:34:35.304 –> 00:34:37.965
it. Okay. Trust me. There would trust me. There will be more.

554
00:34:40.824 –> 00:34:44.599
It was past 1 o’clock when Pierre left his friend. On one of those

555
00:34:44.599 –> 00:34:48.440
limpid white nights typical of Petersburg in June, Pierre got into a higher

556
00:34:48.440 –> 00:34:51.844
cab with every intention of going home. But the nearer he got, the more he

557
00:34:51.844 –> 00:34:55.605
realized it would be impossible to get to sleep on a night like this

558
00:34:55.605 –> 00:34:59.365
when it was more like evening or morning. You could see right down

559
00:34:59.365 –> 00:35:02.840
the empty streets. On the way, Peter remembered that the old

560
00:35:02.840 –> 00:35:06.620
gambling school would be meeting at Anatoli and Kurigan’s that night,

561
00:35:06.840 –> 00:35:10.535
and it would usually lead to a drinking session followed by one of Pierre’s favorite

562
00:35:10.535 –> 00:35:14.375
pastimes. It would be nice to go Tom, he thought, but

563
00:35:14.375 –> 00:35:17.995
then he remembered that he had promised prince Andre he wouldn’t go there again.

564
00:35:18.670 –> 00:35:22.290
But as so often happens with people who might be described as spineless,

565
00:35:23.470 –> 00:35:26.990
he felt such a strong urge for one more shot at the old debauchery that

566
00:35:26.990 –> 00:35:30.575
he decided to go. And it suddenly occurred to him that his

567
00:35:30.575 –> 00:35:34.335
promise was invalid anyway because he’d already promised prince Anatole that he would

568
00:35:34.335 –> 00:35:38.090
go before promising Andrei that he wouldn’t. Then he began to think that all

569
00:35:38.090 –> 00:35:41.930
promises like that were relative. They had no definite meaning, especially if you imagine

570
00:35:41.930 –> 00:35:45.125
that tomorrow you might be dead or something strange might happen, that there would be

571
00:35:45.125 –> 00:35:48.805
no difference between honesty and dishonesty. Pierre was very

572
00:35:48.805 –> 00:35:52.425
prone to this kind of speculation, which destroyed all his resolutions

573
00:35:52.565 –> 00:35:56.150
and intentions. He went to Kuragin’s. Pause.

574
00:35:56.369 –> 00:35:59.890
That is a perfect example of relativistic thinking, by the way, when you have no

575
00:35:59.890 –> 00:36:02.710
moral core. That’s what Tolstoy is getting at here.

576
00:36:04.235 –> 00:36:07.994
Back to the book. He drove up to the front of a

577
00:36:07.994 –> 00:36:11.599
mansion near the horse guards’ barracks where Anatoli lived, went up the well lit

578
00:36:11.599 –> 00:36:15.279
steps in the staircase and walk in through an open door. There was no one

579
00:36:15.279 –> 00:36:18.880
in the vestibule. Empty bottles, cloaks and overshoes were scattered about everywhere. The

580
00:36:18.880 –> 00:36:22.655
place reeked of drink and the distance you could hear people talking and

581
00:36:22.655 –> 00:36:26.435
shouting. They had finished playing cards and supper was over.

582
00:36:26.655 –> 00:36:29.535
Pause by the way. This is like 4:30 in the morning, by the way. So

583
00:36:29.535 –> 00:36:32.960
that’s the other thing I want you to understand before it’s about to happen here.

584
00:36:33.279 –> 00:36:37.039
Kids, listeners, nothing good happens in

585
00:36:37.039 –> 00:36:40.595
the world after 2 o’clock in the morning. Just keep that in

586
00:36:40.595 –> 00:36:43.175
mind. Back to the book.

587
00:36:44.755 –> 00:36:48.520
Pierre threw off his cloak and went into the first room where

588
00:36:48.520 –> 00:36:52.280
there were some leftovers from supper. And a servant, thinking that no one could see

589
00:36:52.280 –> 00:36:55.960
him, was downing half empty glasses on the side. From the 3rd room

590
00:36:55.960 –> 00:36:59.735
came great roars of laughter, the sound of familiar voices shouting,

591
00:37:00.115 –> 00:37:01.735
and a bear growling.

592
00:37:04.355 –> 00:37:07.900
8 or 9 young men were jostling by each other by an open

593
00:37:07.900 –> 00:37:11.740
window. 3 others were playing with a bear cub. Yes. I

594
00:37:11.740 –> 00:37:15.580
said a bear cub. 1 of them yanking its chain and scaring

595
00:37:15.580 –> 00:37:19.424
the others with it. A huddle of Sorrells cried 1. No holding on to

596
00:37:19.424 –> 00:37:23.184
the window, shouted another. My money’s on Dolkhoff, shouted a third. You can’t

597
00:37:23.184 –> 00:37:26.840
witness her again. Forget that bear. There’s a bear on here. There’s a bet on

598
00:37:26.840 –> 00:37:30.600
here. Down and 1 or you’ve lost, cried a 4th. Yakov, bring

599
00:37:30.600 –> 00:37:34.220
us a bottle, Yakov, shouted Anatoli himself, a tall, handsome man,

600
00:37:34.795 –> 00:37:37.675
standing in his shirt sleeves in the middle of the group. His fine shirt front

601
00:37:37.675 –> 00:37:41.435
unbuttoned down to mid chest. Hang on, gentlemen. Look who’s come. It’s old Pierre. Good

602
00:37:41.435 –> 00:37:45.110
man. He had turned towards Pierre. From the window, a blue

603
00:37:45.110 –> 00:37:48.550
eyed man of average height, conspicuously sober amidst the drunken

604
00:37:48.550 –> 00:37:52.330
uproar, called out clearly, come on over here. Sort out your bets.

605
00:37:52.645 –> 00:37:56.005
This was Dolikov, an officer in the Semignano regiment, a

606
00:37:56.005 –> 00:37:59.685
notorious gambler and swaggering madcap at present living

607
00:37:59.685 –> 00:38:03.440
with Anatoly. Pierre beamed at the company. I don’t get it. What’s

608
00:38:03.440 –> 00:38:07.140
happening? Hang on. He’s not drunk. Get him a bottle, said Anatoli.

609
00:38:07.360 –> 00:38:10.740
He took a glass from the table and walked over to Pierre. First things first.

610
00:38:10.815 –> 00:38:14.575
Have a good drink. Pierre proceeded to down glass after

611
00:38:14.575 –> 00:38:18.335
glass, looking doubtfully at the drunken revelers who were crowding around the window again

612
00:38:18.335 –> 00:38:21.950
and listening to what they were saying. Anatoli kept his glass topped and

613
00:38:21.950 –> 00:38:25.150
told him that Dolikoff had made a bet with an English sailor by the name

614
00:38:25.150 –> 00:38:28.915
of Stevens, who was passing through, that he, Dolikoff, could drink

615
00:38:28.915 –> 00:38:32.675
a bottle of rum sitting on the 3rd floor windowsill with his legs dangling

616
00:38:32.675 –> 00:38:36.355
outside. Come on. Finish that bottle, essays Anatoli, giving

617
00:38:36.355 –> 00:38:40.120
Pierre the last glass, sir. I’m not letting you go. No. I don’t want it,

618
00:38:40.120 –> 00:38:43.020
said Pierre, shoving Anatoli away, and he went over to the window.

619
00:38:43.560 –> 00:38:47.320
Belikov had a grip on the Englishman’s arm, and he was meticulously explaining the

620
00:38:47.320 –> 00:38:50.485
terms of the bet, looking mainly at Anatole and Pierre.

621
00:38:51.665 –> 00:38:54.705
Dollacov was a man of average height in his mid twenties with curly hair and

622
00:38:54.705 –> 00:38:58.519
bright blue eyes. Like all infantry officers, he wore no mustache so that his mouth,

623
00:38:58.519 –> 00:39:02.200
the most striking thing about him, was fully revealed. The lines of that mouth were

624
00:39:02.200 –> 00:39:06.035
very finely curved. The upper lip closed sharply down in the middle wedge over,

625
00:39:06.035 –> 00:39:09.395
like, a firm lower one, and the two corners of the mouth always worked itself

626
00:39:09.395 –> 00:39:13.240
into something like a double smile. All this together with a decisive

627
00:39:13.240 –> 00:39:16.280
brazen shrewd look in his eyes was so impressive that no one could fail to

628
00:39:16.280 –> 00:39:20.120
notice his face. Volokhav was a man of few resources and

629
00:39:20.120 –> 00:39:23.865
no contacts, And yet somehow, despite the fact that

630
00:39:23.865 –> 00:39:27.704
Anatoly doled out his money in tens of 1,000, Dolokov lived with him and

631
00:39:27.704 –> 00:39:31.260
managed to present himself in such a way that Anatoly himself and everybody who knew

632
00:39:31.260 –> 00:39:35.100
him or who knew them admired Dolokov more, than

633
00:39:35.100 –> 00:39:38.780
Anatoly. Dolokov gambled on everything and

634
00:39:38.780 –> 00:39:42.505
usually won. However, however much he drank, he

635
00:39:42.505 –> 00:39:46.345
always kept a clear head. Both of them, Kuragin and Dolokov, were

636
00:39:46.345 –> 00:39:49.980
curiously infamous figures along the fast and loose young

637
00:39:49.980 –> 00:39:53.660
men of Petersburg. The bottle of rum

638
00:39:53.660 –> 00:39:57.055
was brought. 2 servants clearly flustered and intimidated by shouts and

639
00:39:57.055 –> 00:40:00.735
directions issuing from gentlemen on all sides were the process of removing the section of

640
00:40:00.735 –> 00:40:04.250
the window frame that prevented anyone from sitting on the outer sill. Anatoli

641
00:40:04.309 –> 00:40:07.589
swaggered across to the window, eager to smash something. He shoved the servants out of

642
00:40:07.589 –> 00:40:09.990
the way and pulled at the frame, but it wouldn’t give. He broke one of

643
00:40:09.990 –> 00:40:13.555
the panes. Come on, Hercules. You have a go, he said, turning to

644
00:40:13.555 –> 00:40:17.395
Pierre. Pierre grabbed a hold of the cross piece and heaved, broke the

645
00:40:17.395 –> 00:40:21.170
oak frame with a crash, and wrenched it out. Get the lot out

646
00:40:21.170 –> 00:40:24.930
or they’ll think I’m holding on to Dolikoff. The Englishman’s bragging, isn’t he? Is

647
00:40:24.930 –> 00:40:28.769
everything alright, Tom, said Pierre, watching Dolikoff go over to the

648
00:40:28.769 –> 00:40:32.545
window, bottle in hand. The light of the sky shown

649
00:40:32.545 –> 00:40:36.225
with the merging of dusk and dawn. Dolikov jumped on the

650
00:40:36.225 –> 00:40:39.970
windowsill still holding his bottle. Listen, he shouted, standing there

651
00:40:39.970 –> 00:40:43.109
facing back into the room. Silence fell.

652
00:40:43.890 –> 00:40:47.329
I bet you he spoke in French so the Englishman could understand what he was

653
00:40:47.329 –> 00:40:50.895
saying, and his French wasn’t too good. I bet you 50 imperials.

654
00:40:51.035 –> 00:40:54.474
Make it a 100? He added, turning to the Englishman. No.

655
00:40:54.474 –> 00:40:58.270
50, said the Englishman. Alright. 50 it is. I could drink

656
00:40:58.270 –> 00:41:01.630
a whole bottle of rum without taking it away from my lips. I’ll drink it

657
00:41:01.630 –> 00:41:05.315
sitting outside the window there. He bent down and pointed to the downward

658
00:41:05.315 –> 00:41:08.455
sloping ledge on the outside without holding onto anything. Is that it?

659
00:41:09.155 –> 00:41:12.960
Yes, said the Englishman. Anatoli turned to the sailor, took

660
00:41:12.960 –> 00:41:16.000
hold of a button on his coat, and looked down at him. He was quite

661
00:41:16.100 –> 00:41:19.200
fourth. And went out through the went through the terms of the bet once again

662
00:41:19.200 –> 00:41:22.974
in English. Hang on a minute, Shadi Dola call calling for attention by

663
00:41:22.974 –> 00:41:26.335
banging the bottle of the windowsill. Hang on, Corrigan. Listen. If anybody else could do

664
00:41:26.335 –> 00:41:30.079
it, I’ll pay him a 100 imperials. Alright? The sailor nodded with no

665
00:41:30.079 –> 00:41:33.759
indication of whether he accepted this new bet or not. And it totally hung

666
00:41:33.759 –> 00:41:37.115
on to him, although the sailor nodded to say he fully understood. Anatole kept on

667
00:41:37.115 –> 00:41:40.575
translating Dolikov’s words into English. A skinny young lifeguardsman

668
00:41:41.515 –> 00:41:44.714
who had lost a lot that evening climbed above the windowsill, stuck his head out

669
00:41:44.714 –> 00:41:48.390
and looked down. Ugh, he said staring at the pavement. A tad

670
00:41:48.390 –> 00:41:52.150
shut, cried Dolyakov, yanking him back in. So he tripped over his spurs and

671
00:41:52.150 –> 00:41:54.490
came tumbling down awkwardly into the room.

672
00:41:56.055 –> 00:41:59.655
Standing, the bottle on the sill to keep you within easy

673
00:41:59.655 –> 00:42:03.255
reach, Golokov climbed slowly and deliberately out through the window and let his legs

674
00:42:03.255 –> 00:42:06.869
dangle down outside. Bracing himself with both hands against the sides of the

675
00:42:06.869 –> 00:42:10.550
frame, he settled himself, sat down, let go with his

676
00:42:10.550 –> 00:42:13.849
hands, shuffled slightly to the right then to the left and reached for the bottle.

677
00:42:13.995 –> 00:42:17.595
Anatoly brought 2 candles and put them on the window ledge even though it was

678
00:42:17.595 –> 00:42:21.435
quite light. Dolakove’s back with his white shirt and his curly head were

679
00:42:21.435 –> 00:42:24.990
lit up from both sides. Everybody swarmed around the window, the English

680
00:42:24.990 –> 00:42:28.829
sailor at the front. Pierre smiled and said nothing. 1

681
00:42:28.829 –> 00:42:32.474
of the party, a bit older than the rest, suddenly pushed his way through with

682
00:42:32.474 –> 00:42:36.315
a scared and angry face and tried to grab Adelecom’s shirt. Gentlemen, this is crazy.

683
00:42:36.315 –> 00:42:39.694
He’ll get it killed, did this more sensible man.

684
00:42:40.650 –> 00:42:43.850
And it totally stopped him. Don’t touch him. You’ll put him off and then he

685
00:42:43.850 –> 00:42:47.550
will get killed. What about that? Belikov looked around,

686
00:42:47.645 –> 00:42:51.485
chipped his position and was still supporting himself with both hands. If anybody tries

687
00:42:51.485 –> 00:42:54.925
to get ahold of me again, he said, forcing out the words 1 by 1

688
00:42:54.925 –> 00:42:58.339
through tight, thin lips, I’ll chuck him down there

689
00:42:59.090 –> 00:43:00.740
writers then.

690
00:43:02.799 –> 00:43:06.105
Whereupon he turned around again to face the outside, took his hands away, picked up

691
00:43:06.105 –> 00:43:09.225
the bottle, and put it to his mouth, bent his head book, and held his

692
00:43:09.225 –> 00:43:11.805
free hand up in the air to balance himself.

693
00:43:14.230 –> 00:43:17.750
1 of the servants who had been gone clearing of the broken glass stood

694
00:43:17.750 –> 00:43:21.290
transfixed Tom the stooping posture, his eyes glued to the window and Dullico’s

695
00:43:21.430 –> 00:43:25.065
book, and Atolli stood erect staring. The Englishman winced as he watched for one side.

696
00:43:25.065 –> 00:43:28.025
The man who had tried to stop it all had rushed into a corner and

697
00:43:28.025 –> 00:43:31.620
now lay on the sofa facing the wall. Pierre covered his eyes. A feeble

698
00:43:31.620 –> 00:43:34.580
forgotten smile lingered on his lips. His face was now full of fear and horror.

699
00:43:34.580 –> 00:43:38.100
Nobody spoke. Pierre took his hands away from his eyes, and there was Dolikov still

700
00:43:38.100 –> 00:43:40.724
sitting in the same position only his head was bent so far back that the

701
00:43:40.724 –> 00:43:43.685
curls on his neck touched a short collar and the hand with the bottle rose

702
00:43:43.685 –> 00:43:47.365
higher and higher, trembling with the effort. The bottle was draining nicely and went higher

703
00:43:47.365 –> 00:43:51.110
as it did so, bending the head further back. Why is it

704
00:43:51.110 –> 00:43:54.710
taking so long, thought Pierre. More than a half hour seemed to have passed. Suddenly,

705
00:43:54.710 –> 00:43:58.550
Dolikov’s spine jerk back and his arm trembled nervously enough to shift his whole body

706
00:43:58.550 –> 00:44:02.375
as he sat on the sloping ledge. He slipped and his arm and head shook

707
00:44:02.375 –> 00:44:05.895
even more violently as he struggled. One hand rose to clutch at the windowsill, but

708
00:44:05.895 –> 00:44:09.595
fell back again. Pierre shut his eyes again and swore he would never open them.

709
00:44:10.280 –> 00:44:13.880
Then suddenly he was aware of things beginning to move round about him. He glanced

710
00:44:13.880 –> 00:44:17.560
up. There was Dolikov, standing on the window ledge, his pale

711
00:44:17.560 –> 00:44:21.375
face full of delight, all gone. Tossed

712
00:44:21.375 –> 00:44:24.815
the bottle to the Englishman, caught it neatly. Golikov jumped down from the

713
00:44:24.815 –> 00:44:28.550
window, stinking of rum. Well done, bravo. That’s a

714
00:44:28.550 –> 00:44:32.310
real bet. You’re a right w r, came the shouts from all sides. The

715
00:44:32.310 –> 00:44:36.035
Englishman took out his purse and counted out the money. Dolica stood there

716
00:44:36.035 –> 00:44:39.875
frowning in silent. Pierre left to the windowsill. Gentlemen, anybody betting? I could do that,

717
00:44:39.875 –> 00:44:42.675
he shouted suddenly. I don’t even need a bet. No. I don’t. Just tell him

718
00:44:42.675 –> 00:44:45.060
to get me a bottle. I’ll do it. Just get me a bottle. Go on.

719
00:44:45.060 –> 00:44:48.820
Let him do it, said with a grin. What are you, mad?

720
00:44:48.820 –> 00:44:52.520
No one will let you. You get dizzy walking downstairs in various protests.

721
00:44:53.765 –> 00:44:57.445
I’ll drink it. Give me that bottle of Rob Roypierre, thumping his table with deliberate

722
00:44:57.445 –> 00:45:01.225
drunken gesture, and he climbed up into the well of the window.

723
00:45:01.829 –> 00:45:05.510
People snatched their arms, but he was so strong. He sent them flying if they

724
00:45:05.510 –> 00:45:09.030
came anywhere near. No. You’ll never talk him out of it like that, said

725
00:45:09.030 –> 00:45:12.585
Anatole. Hang on. I know how to fool him. Listen, Pierre. I

726
00:45:12.585 –> 00:45:16.105
accept your bet. But for tomorrow night, right now, we’re all

727
00:45:16.105 –> 00:45:19.890
gonna, you know, go on to you know where. Right. Let’s

728
00:45:19.890 –> 00:45:22.710
go, Gilpin. Let’s go. We can take Bruin with us.

729
00:45:24.370 –> 00:45:28.055
And he grabbed the bear, hugged it, lifted it

730
00:45:28.055 –> 00:45:31.195
right off the floor, and took it to waltzing

731
00:45:32.455 –> 00:45:34.555
around the room.

732
00:45:46.575 –> 00:45:49.075
I went to my fair share of drunken parties in college.

733
00:45:51.359 –> 00:45:54.880
Yes. I did. And I know Tom did as well. Maybe not maybe Tom wasn’t

734
00:45:54.880 –> 00:45:57.520
the one drinking. And sometimes I was drinking and sometimes I wasn’t. I was the

735
00:45:57.520 –> 00:45:59.780
sober one in the corner. I really was.

736
00:46:03.185 –> 00:46:06.725
I saw well, to paraphrase

737
00:46:07.185 –> 00:46:10.450
from the replicant in Blade Runner played by Rucker Hauer,

738
00:46:11.570 –> 00:46:13.750
I saw things that you wouldn’t believe.

739
00:46:16.930 –> 00:46:19.589
And it looks like Tolstoy did as well

740
00:46:20.945 –> 00:46:24.785
when he was engaged in drunken shenanigans when he was

741
00:46:24.785 –> 00:46:27.825
in college. And by the way, that is the right term to use even in

742
00:46:27.825 –> 00:46:30.750
Russian. It is indeed shenanigans.

743
00:46:33.530 –> 00:46:37.370
Leo Tolstoy, was born on the 9th September

744
00:46:37.370 –> 00:46:40.825
18 28, and he died on the 20th November 1910.

745
00:46:41.365 –> 00:46:44.985
And he is, as we’ve said before on this podcast, along with Dostoevsky,

746
00:46:45.685 –> 00:46:49.420
Hyrganyev, who we just readers book, fathers and sons, and

747
00:46:49.420 –> 00:46:53.020
Anton Chekhov, who we covered last year, his short Sorrells, one of the 4

748
00:46:53.020 –> 00:46:56.460
greatest Russian writers of the 19th century and one of the greatest Russian writers of

749
00:46:56.460 –> 00:47:00.265
all time. And he is the greatest Russian writer of all time because of exactly

750
00:47:00.645 –> 00:47:04.484
that little piece that I read just there. That

751
00:47:04.484 –> 00:47:08.070
was almost cinematic in how it was put

752
00:47:08.070 –> 00:47:11.797
together. He received nominations for the Nobel Prize in Literature

753
00:47:12.070 –> 00:47:15.724
every year from 1902 Tom 1906 and for the Nobel Prize

754
00:47:16.105 –> 00:47:19.085
Prize in 1901, 190 2 190 9.

755
00:47:19.945 –> 00:47:23.625
Beginning in his league teams, Tolstoy wrote consistently for his

756
00:47:23.625 –> 00:47:27.080
entire life. There wasn’t a time when he stopped

757
00:47:27.080 –> 00:47:30.620
writing. He documented his life, the life of the Russian people.

758
00:47:30.760 –> 00:47:34.540
And eventually, as we can see in this piece in war and peace,

759
00:47:35.545 –> 00:47:39.065
life of the overall human experience. From

760
00:47:39.065 –> 00:47:42.744
childhood, boyhood, and youth to Anna Karenina and, of course, War and

761
00:47:42.744 –> 00:47:46.420
Peace, Tolstoy used the genres of literature, all of them,

762
00:47:46.720 –> 00:47:50.560
including critique, to explore not only the depths of other

763
00:47:50.560 –> 00:47:53.925
people, but also the depths of himself. By the

764
00:47:53.925 –> 00:47:57.765
way, Pierre, in this example, Anatole and

765
00:47:57.765 –> 00:48:01.445
Dolikov, along with all of the other books, are

766
00:48:02.270 –> 00:48:06.030
serve as a at least in Tolstoy’s time, served as a modern

767
00:48:06.030 –> 00:48:09.790
example of the dissolute youth when things were better in the

768
00:48:09.790 –> 00:48:13.585
past, when the youth knew how to behave and not engage in

769
00:48:13.585 –> 00:48:17.265
drunken revelry with, with

770
00:48:17.265 –> 00:48:21.050
bear cubs. Oh, and bottles of rum. So my

771
00:48:21.050 –> 00:48:22.830
question to Tom is this.

772
00:48:24.970 –> 00:48:28.704
Let’s start with this. What experience have you had in your

773
00:48:28.704 –> 00:48:31.505
life that you would never write down where you would have to change all the

774
00:48:31.505 –> 00:48:34.785
names to protect the guilty? I’m not gonna tell you on here either. Why would

775
00:48:34.785 –> 00:48:38.400
I do that? If I wasn’t gonna write it down, I’m not gonna I’m not

776
00:48:38.400 –> 00:48:39.860
gonna put it out on the Internet.

777
00:48:42.480 –> 00:48:46.105
Let me I’ll I’ll I’ll I’ll circumvent the question like

778
00:48:46.105 –> 00:48:49.865
this. Circumvent the question. Go ahead. Regardless

779
00:48:49.865 –> 00:48:53.520
of the happenings of the turning, now those of you who don’t know Boston,

780
00:48:53.520 –> 00:48:57.040
there’s a very popular road called Rutherford Avenue, which goes from

781
00:48:57.040 –> 00:49:00.635
Boston outside into a neighboring Libby. And

782
00:49:00.635 –> 00:49:04.315
then if you go through that neighboring Libby, I lived probably 2 cities

783
00:49:04.315 –> 00:49:07.775
away. And I remember now if we all understand how

784
00:49:08.170 –> 00:49:11.690
the painting on pavement works Mhmm. There’s a double yellow

785
00:49:11.690 –> 00:49:15.130
line that goes in the middle of the street that you’re not supposed to

786
00:49:15.130 –> 00:49:18.755
cross, The

787
00:49:18.755 –> 00:49:22.535
most I remember of that evening was me walking on that

788
00:49:22.675 –> 00:49:26.250
double yellow line singing out loud, follow the yellow brick

789
00:49:26.250 –> 00:49:28.030
road. I’ll just leave it at that.

790
00:49:32.664 –> 00:49:35.704
I will say I will say publicly for my part. I will say publicly for

791
00:49:35.704 –> 00:49:39.224
my part. I had so many drunken

792
00:49:39.224 –> 00:49:42.960
shenanigans in college that at one time, during

793
00:49:44.619 –> 00:49:46.480
a particularly street

794
00:49:49.020 –> 00:49:52.735
festival, the

795
00:49:52.735 –> 00:49:56.115
EMTs were called to engage with me.

796
00:49:57.910 –> 00:50:00.790
I was fine, but she engaged with me to make sure that I was okay.

797
00:50:00.790 –> 00:50:04.330
And one of the MTs was a classmate of mine,

798
00:50:04.845 –> 00:50:07.825
and she literally said to me, I’ve never seen you sober.

799
00:50:09.644 –> 00:50:13.369
And then she walked away. So so you’ve

800
00:50:13.369 –> 00:50:16.490
never seen fourth sober. So listen to this. So I could probably count on one

801
00:50:16.490 –> 00:50:20.010
hand in my entire lifetime that I’ve that I’ve had situations like

802
00:50:20.010 –> 00:50:23.755
that. Mhmm. Yeah. One hand. Let me yeah. Because like I was joke I

803
00:50:23.755 –> 00:50:27.195
wasn’t I wasn’t joking earlier when I say most

804
00:50:27.195 –> 00:50:30.920
times I was the guy in the corner of the room completely

805
00:50:31.060 –> 00:50:33.560
sober, making sure that nobody else

806
00:50:34.740 –> 00:50:38.180
Died. Drove home drove home drunk or got into a fight or

807
00:50:38.525 –> 00:50:42.204
I was I was the I was the I was the party dad. Right. Yeah.

808
00:50:42.204 –> 00:50:45.805
Yeah. Yeah. For all time first, most times. So I was the I was the

809
00:50:45.805 –> 00:50:49.510
Englishman in the corner going not in the corner, but an Englishman going, well, I

810
00:50:49.510 –> 00:50:52.730
guess I’m gonna pay. Let’s see how this goes. Exactly.

811
00:50:53.589 –> 00:50:56.310
Well, we’re here now. We might as well go all the way. Like, that’s you

812
00:50:56.310 –> 00:50:59.915
know? In fourth penny and for a pound, Longshanks. What are we doing here?

813
00:51:00.055 –> 00:51:03.815
I had plenty of those friends. And I and I and I know

814
00:51:03.815 –> 00:51:07.109
how to manage them In the in the

815
00:51:07.430 –> 00:51:10.470
so one of the things that I find funny, I so I thought your question

816
00:51:10.470 –> 00:51:14.305
was gonna be more, you know, business related or leadership related because you’re

817
00:51:14.424 –> 00:51:18.265
there. Don’t worry. We’re wandering in that direction. Okay. Because there was a point

818
00:51:18.265 –> 00:51:21.970
in time there where where the the person I

819
00:51:21.970 –> 00:51:25.730
forget the names at this point. I apologize. But the person who stops the guy

820
00:51:25.730 –> 00:51:28.609
from taking the bet, right, that that wants to bring the bottle around the fall.

821
00:51:28.609 –> 00:51:31.465
And he says, no. That’s for I’ll bet you that, but it’s for tomorrow night.

822
00:51:31.465 –> 00:51:34.905
Right? Like, that that that is a great example of

823
00:51:34.905 –> 00:51:38.430
just knowing knowing how to read the

824
00:51:38.430 –> 00:51:42.270
personalities and knowing when to it’s

825
00:51:42.270 –> 00:51:45.230
it’s like that old Kenny Rogers song. Right? Like, know when to hold them, when

826
00:51:45.230 –> 00:51:48.545
to fold them. And, yeah, if you can if you can base that on the

827
00:51:48.545 –> 00:51:52.305
personalities in the room, that’s leadership in a in a nutshell.

828
00:51:52.305 –> 00:51:55.765
Right? Being able to get things done without having to

829
00:51:56.450 –> 00:52:00.050
really force the issue. Right? You’re just yeah. I I’ll tell

830
00:52:00.050 –> 00:52:03.250
you. Rather than rather than laying in the corner on the sofa with, like, fourth

831
00:52:03.250 –> 00:52:06.075
curled I I can I imagine the guy curled up on the sofa like his

832
00:52:06.075 –> 00:52:09.515
face turned to the wall? Yeah. Because he’s like, he doesn’t wanna see. He’s like,

833
00:52:09.515 –> 00:52:13.270
I don’t I don’t wanna know. It’s gonna be a nightmare. I I I

834
00:52:13.270 –> 00:52:16.730
look at it the same way, like, the the there’s a couple of different versions

835
00:52:17.110 –> 00:52:20.550
of parenting out there. Right? Whereas, like, one parent essays, do

836
00:52:20.550 –> 00:52:24.234
this because I said so, and you’re gonna do it because if you don’t, there

837
00:52:24.234 –> 00:52:27.994
are consequences because I said so. Right? And then there are other parents

838
00:52:27.994 –> 00:52:31.700
that overexplain to the nth, like, to the nth

839
00:52:31.700 –> 00:52:35.380
degree and, like okay. I’m I’m not making fun of

840
00:52:35.380 –> 00:52:39.015
those people. Please the face. But and then they have the other

841
00:52:39.015 –> 00:52:42.775
people that say that’s very clear and say, well, why

842
00:52:42.775 –> 00:52:45.380
don’t you tell me why you think I’m asking you to do that? And then

843
00:52:45.380 –> 00:52:48.579
they take the kid’s response and go, exactly. See now you’re gonna go do that

844
00:52:48.579 –> 00:52:51.480
because you know why. It’s that reverse psychology

845
00:52:52.420 –> 00:52:55.505
thing. Anyway.

846
00:52:57.484 –> 00:53:00.444
I the reason why I want to read all that is because it opens with

847
00:53:00.444 –> 00:53:03.910
a bear and it closes with a bear. A bear. Yeah. And I couldn’t

848
00:53:04.930 –> 00:53:08.770
quite wrap my arms around that part. Yeah. I

849
00:53:08.770 –> 00:53:12.154
never went to parties with bears. Yeah. No.

850
00:53:12.775 –> 00:53:15.434
Like, I would’ve I would’ve declined all invitations.

851
00:53:16.454 –> 00:53:20.200
Same. You know, if if my if my one of my good friends, and

852
00:53:20.200 –> 00:53:23.900
he knows who he is, if he’s listening to this, he knows who he is.

853
00:53:24.280 –> 00:53:26.440
If he had ever invited me to a party with a bear, I would have

854
00:53:26.440 –> 00:53:29.905
said, I think I’ll stay home. Did you have a good

855
00:53:29.905 –> 00:53:33.045
time? That seems like something that you would need to be involved in.

856
00:53:35.190 –> 00:53:38.790
Okay. Couple of ideas that come out of that. Yes. The reading of the

857
00:53:38.790 –> 00:53:42.405
room, being able to manage people. Dolikov

858
00:53:42.565 –> 00:53:45.765
is an interesting character, and he’s gonna become more interesting later on as you go

859
00:53:45.765 –> 00:53:49.205
through war and peace. But he is the guy who and and

860
00:53:49.205 –> 00:53:52.680
Tolstoy describes him almost perfectly. I loved this I loved this, description

861
00:53:53.060 –> 00:53:56.740
of him. Dolikov was a

862
00:53:56.740 –> 00:54:00.339
man who was of average height. He describes his mouth and all this other

863
00:54:00.339 –> 00:54:03.805
stuff. And then he says, Dolikov was a man of very few resources

864
00:54:04.105 –> 00:54:07.645
and no contacts. He’s got no network. Right?

865
00:54:08.105 –> 00:54:11.869
And yet somehow, despite the fact that Anatoli doled out his

866
00:54:11.869 –> 00:54:15.549
money in tens of 1,000, which is the guy that was talking to

867
00:54:15.549 –> 00:54:18.424
Pierre and kinda talked about the ledge and said, we’ll go do this tomorrow night.

868
00:54:18.424 –> 00:54:22.265
So Anatoli is the guy who owns the, owns the the the building where

869
00:54:22.265 –> 00:54:26.045
all this is going down. He presented

870
00:54:27.530 –> 00:54:31.370
this one he said to thousands. Dolikov lived with him and managed to present himself

871
00:54:31.370 –> 00:54:34.830
in such a way that Anatoly himself and everybody who knew them

872
00:54:35.155 –> 00:54:38.855
admire Dolikov more than Anatoly. Dolikov

873
00:54:39.235 –> 00:54:42.995
gambled on everything and usually won. However much he drank, he always kept a clear

874
00:54:42.995 –> 00:54:46.270
head. Both of them, Kuragin and Dolikov, were currently

875
00:54:47.130 –> 00:54:50.190
infamous figures among the fast and loose young men of Petersburg.

876
00:54:51.775 –> 00:54:55.315
He was the charisma guy. Right? Like Right. So this is a question.

877
00:54:55.455 –> 00:54:59.215
The the the the hierarchy the the the hierarchy between men, we don’t

878
00:54:59.215 –> 00:55:02.869
have to actually often talk about this, but the hierarchy of dominance among

879
00:55:02.869 –> 00:55:06.710
men. So obviously, you know, you have alphas. People already people know what

880
00:55:06.710 –> 00:55:10.505
that term means. But you also

881
00:55:10.505 –> 00:55:13.725
have the young man, and Dolikov was one of these people who

882
00:55:14.505 –> 00:55:18.319
don’t care about the hierarchy. Mhmm. Like, they don’t care about the alphas.

883
00:55:18.319 –> 00:55:22.079
They don’t care about if we’re gonna rank up, like, the deltas who are just

884
00:55:22.079 –> 00:55:25.625
your Tom Sorrells of the the the the party

885
00:55:25.625 –> 00:55:29.305
fathers. They don’t care about the gammas who are like, why am I here? I

886
00:55:29.305 –> 00:55:32.590
hate all of you. I could be playing PlayStation at home. Like, why are we

887
00:55:32.590 –> 00:55:36.350
here? And there’s a bear. What are we doing? Right? And they’ll turn the

888
00:55:36.350 –> 00:55:39.550
bear on you in a heartbeat. That’s what a gamma will do. But you’ve got

889
00:55:39.550 –> 00:55:43.055
people who are outside of that hierarchy, and and Tolstoy writes about him. It’s so

890
00:55:43.055 –> 00:55:46.715
do a lot of other leadership lot of other writers. In the sun also writers,

891
00:55:46.734 –> 00:55:50.470
it was the character Mike in there who just don’t care

892
00:55:50.470 –> 00:55:54.230
about the hierarchy at all. Like, they just don’t care. They’re gonna do

893
00:55:54.230 –> 00:55:57.505
what they’re gonna do. They’re gonna drink what they’re gonna drink. They’re going to have

894
00:55:57.505 –> 00:56:00.944
relationships with wherever it is they’re going to have relationships with. And if you like

895
00:56:00.944 –> 00:56:04.760
it. Cool. And if you don’t, well, that’s cool. Like

896
00:56:04.760 –> 00:56:08.520
we can do this all day, baby. Hey, you know, and those

897
00:56:08.520 –> 00:56:12.285
tend to be books who struggle

898
00:56:12.505 –> 00:56:16.105
will not struggle, but they wander from hierarchy to hierarchy, to

899
00:56:16.105 –> 00:56:19.705
hierarchy and Dola Cove is that is kind of that

900
00:56:19.705 –> 00:56:20.205
character.

901
00:56:24.210 –> 00:56:27.330
They also tend to be viewed by people who are who are trying to climb

902
00:56:27.330 –> 00:56:30.975
to the top of the hierarchy, particularly among men. They tend to be viewed disagreeably

903
00:56:31.489 –> 00:56:35.295
fourth like, I don’t really know what’s going on with that guy. So

904
00:56:36.395 –> 00:56:39.843
I guess the question is what’s the best if you’re a

905
00:56:39.843 –> 00:56:43.550
leaders, what’s the best sort of posture to adopt to the

906
00:56:43.550 –> 00:56:47.175
hierarchy of dealing with other men? But they don’t really ever talk about that. Like,

907
00:56:47.175 –> 00:56:50.075
we talk a lot about we talked about women a little bit on this podcast,

908
00:56:50.295 –> 00:56:54.055
but specifically about the male hierarchy because there is there is that

909
00:56:54.055 –> 00:56:57.430
male social, I guess, social sexual, I guess, is how you can frame it,

910
00:56:57.430 –> 00:57:01.270
but social hierarchy. Like, how do you. Why am that with

911
00:57:01.270 –> 00:57:04.310
other dudes? If you are not the alpha and you don’t care about any of

912
00:57:04.310 –> 00:57:08.055
that. That’s a that’s a

913
00:57:08.055 –> 00:57:11.895
tough question. So for me, I think this is a really, really we could

914
00:57:11.895 –> 00:57:15.720
probably have a podcast episode just on this. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Because

915
00:57:15.780 –> 00:57:19.320
because I first of all, the idea

916
00:57:19.625 –> 00:57:23.460
fourth me, to me anyway, of having that whole alpha, this alpha, that

917
00:57:23.460 –> 00:57:27.205
is ridiculous. Because guess what? When we all

918
00:57:27.205 –> 00:57:31.045
cut open, we all believe red. It’s you you are a human being just the

919
00:57:31.045 –> 00:57:34.760
way I am. You I am not putting anybody above me. In the same

920
00:57:34.760 –> 00:57:38.599
sense, I’m also not putting anybody below me. I don’t step all over people

921
00:57:38.599 –> 00:57:41.815
either. Right? Like, I’m not just gonna say, well, that guy’s he’s he’s a, you

922
00:57:41.815 –> 00:57:45.335
know, he’s he’s a a beta. Like, he he doesn’t care. He’s he’s you know,

923
00:57:45.335 –> 00:57:48.855
you can walk all over him. He’s not gonna push back. And I was always

924
00:57:48.855 –> 00:57:52.470
that kid in school that protected the kids that the bullies wanted to pick

925
00:57:52.470 –> 00:57:55.510
on all the time. Yeah. I I I can

926
00:57:56.790 –> 00:58:00.525
most of the actual fist fights I’ve ever been in in my life where it

927
00:58:00.525 –> 00:58:04.125
had nothing to do with me. Mhmm. It’s always been like I I I was

928
00:58:04.125 –> 00:58:06.685
always that guy that would come across some bully picking on a kid, and I

929
00:58:06.685 –> 00:58:09.210
would step in going, what are you doing? Like, why are we picking on this

930
00:58:09.210 –> 00:58:12.329
kid? Stop picking on this kid. And then we would get into a fight, and

931
00:58:12.329 –> 00:58:16.105
then we would walk away friends because inevitably, I never

932
00:58:16.105 –> 00:58:19.185
really lost a fight. But that’s alright. That’s different. But that’s not the point. My

933
00:58:19.305 –> 00:58:22.845
the point is I think be I think because of that too and

934
00:58:22.905 –> 00:58:26.090
and and I don’t wanna get too deep into the weeds here because like, you

935
00:58:26.090 –> 00:58:29.290
have a martial arts background. I have a martial arts background. I think some of

936
00:58:29.290 –> 00:58:32.910
that plays into it and into effect too because I don’t care

937
00:58:32.995 –> 00:58:36.455
who I walk into the room with. I don’t care who you think you are.

938
00:58:37.635 –> 00:58:41.075
I’m not taking crack from you. I don’t care if you think you’re alpha or

939
00:58:41.075 –> 00:58:44.710
not. Now that being said, somebody who

940
00:58:44.710 –> 00:58:48.470
thinks they’re alpha that comes at me in a particular way, I will

941
00:58:48.470 –> 00:58:52.295
definitely listen. I’ll sit there and listen. I’ll jab jaw with you all

942
00:58:52.295 –> 00:58:55.974
day long. I’ll I’ll I’ll have I’ll have your opinions come down to me all

943
00:58:55.974 –> 00:58:59.810
all you want In the in the vice versa, so I this is a

944
00:58:59.810 –> 00:59:03.590
really hard question for me to answer because I’ve always fought against

945
00:59:03.650 –> 00:59:07.355
that that alpha thing. Right? Like, I’ve always fought against

946
00:59:07.355 –> 00:59:10.795
that that essays, you you don’t have to be that. And if you think you

947
00:59:10.795 –> 00:59:14.329
are that, you can if you feel the necessity

948
00:59:14.470 –> 00:59:17.990
to be that, there’s still a way to do it that you can make other

949
00:59:17.990 –> 00:59:21.589
people feel inclusive and then you make other feel other people feel

950
00:59:21.589 –> 00:59:25.255
value. Alpha does not equate to a

951
00:59:25.255 –> 00:59:28.715
value higher than other people in my opinion. Okay.

952
00:59:28.935 –> 00:59:32.660
The fact that and I understand general society disagrees with me and there

953
00:59:32.660 –> 00:59:36.180
are alpha people out there, and I get that. Right? But the fact that you

954
00:59:36.180 –> 00:59:39.734
call somebody an alpha does not mean that their value is higher

955
00:59:39.734 –> 00:59:43.494
than anybody anybody else’s. So I am

956
00:59:43.494 –> 00:59:47.174
of the thought that if you are claiming you’re an

957
00:59:47.174 –> 00:59:50.540
alpha, you’re not. Well, that too. If you have to say

958
00:59:50.540 –> 00:59:54.300
it, you ain’t it. Yeah. Like, you just

959
00:59:54.300 –> 00:59:57.180
you just you ain’t. If you have to say it, you ain’t it. That’s number

960
00:59:57.180 –> 00:59:58.240
1. Number 2,

961
01:00:03.645 –> 01:00:06.225
if I don’t care about that status

962
01:00:07.520 –> 01:00:10.240
and I’m going to operate in the room anyway, and this is one of the

963
01:00:10.240 –> 01:00:13.760
things I learned in, in the midst of all my drunken shenanigans in

964
01:00:13.760 –> 01:00:17.335
college, this is one of the social cultural things I did pick up. If I

965
01:00:17.335 –> 01:00:20.935
just operate regardless of what

966
01:00:20.935 –> 01:00:24.710
anybody else is doing. And I

967
01:00:24.710 –> 01:00:28.310
stay really focused on that thing. Like, if I’m going to a

968
01:00:28.310 –> 01:00:31.990
party and I know there’s going to be shots of Jaeger and I know that

969
01:00:31.990 –> 01:00:35.415
I don’t have a good background with any of

970
01:00:35.415 –> 01:00:39.035
that. I’m not drinking any of that.

971
01:00:39.575 –> 01:00:42.430
And so someone’s gonna come to me. Here’s what’s gonna happen. Someone’s gonna come to

972
01:00:42.430 –> 01:00:46.109
me. By the way, cops do this Tom to you. They’ll offer you a piece

973
01:00:46.109 –> 01:00:48.349
of gum. This is why a cop offers you a piece of gum before an

974
01:00:48.349 –> 01:00:52.095
interrogation. They want to see if

975
01:00:52.095 –> 01:00:55.454
you’re going to like break and respond to that.

976
01:00:55.454 –> 01:00:59.250
Right. Now if I know I’m operating

977
01:00:59.630 –> 01:01:02.990
regardless of whatever else is happening because I’ve got my own agenda, go ahead. You

978
01:01:02.990 –> 01:01:06.105
could offer me a Jaeger shot. That’s fine. What I’m going to say is a

979
01:01:06.105 –> 01:01:09.244
very simple fourth, like, no. No. I don’t want that.

980
01:01:10.185 –> 01:01:13.890
I won’t offer up an option for an alternative. I’m not

981
01:01:13.890 –> 01:01:17.190
going to make a suggestion to make you feel better. I’m just gonna say

982
01:01:17.410 –> 01:01:21.010
no. But finally, it drives my wife

983
01:01:21.010 –> 01:01:24.685
crazy when I will do this. It’s social functions sometimes, because people will, they’ll

984
01:01:24.685 –> 01:01:26.065
offer me something like no.

985
01:01:28.445 –> 01:01:31.425
Then you just wait. Right. And you just wait, and you watch them get uncomfortable

986
01:01:31.770 –> 01:01:35.130
because you you didn’t offer them another out. Right? Just no. I don’t want that

987
01:01:35.130 –> 01:01:38.569
thing. You don’t want anything

988
01:01:38.569 –> 01:01:41.455
else? No. I just I didn’t say that. I just said I don’t want that

989
01:01:41.455 –> 01:01:45.295
thing. Did you fourth you’re offering something else, like, let’s talk, but you’re

990
01:01:45.455 –> 01:01:48.830
you didn’t you just offered me this one thing. Okay. By the way, cops, will

991
01:01:48.830 –> 01:01:52.510
they offer you a piece of gum in an interrogation or a cup of coffee?

992
01:01:52.510 –> 01:01:55.865
Say no. That’s the keyword.

993
01:01:56.885 –> 01:02:00.325
Keyword is no. I think that

994
01:02:00.325 –> 01:02:03.385
that act right there separates

995
01:02:04.120 –> 01:02:07.960
people who, to your point, play in the hierarchy of people who don’t. Because there’s

996
01:02:07.960 –> 01:02:11.800
a lot of people who do try to climb above other

997
01:02:11.800 –> 01:02:15.545
people. And the person who I think, anyway, the leader who can

998
01:02:15.545 –> 01:02:19.244
watch that and not succumb to it is the leader who’s going to be successful.

999
01:02:19.705 –> 01:02:23.325
It’s also the leader you wanna follow. Right. Yeah. Writers

1000
01:02:23.430 –> 01:02:27.190
like somebody somebody who is somebody who is, like, somebody who

1001
01:02:27.190 –> 01:02:30.329
is clear you know what the best way I I I there was an exercise.

1002
01:02:30.390 –> 01:02:34.055
I I, I went through it. It was a a management training

1003
01:02:34.055 –> 01:02:37.095
program that I was in. It was very young. There was about 30 of us

1004
01:02:37.095 –> 01:02:40.580
in the room. And the the the instructor,

1005
01:02:40.960 –> 01:02:44.640
the the person who was running the the turning said, I need 3

1006
01:02:44.640 –> 01:02:48.454
groups of 10. You guys figure out which, you know, which 10 you wanna

1007
01:02:48.454 –> 01:02:52.214
be in or whatever. And I said nothing. I literally just walked on the

1008
01:02:52.214 –> 01:02:55.994
side of the room and just waited and watched. And I saw,

1009
01:02:56.170 –> 01:02:59.930
okay, these people, you know, whatever, and I’m like, this group has 10, this

1010
01:02:59.930 –> 01:03:03.744
group has 10, this group has 9. They’re missing me. And I was like,

1011
01:03:03.744 –> 01:03:05.744
I don’t wanna be a part of that group. So I went over and tapped

1012
01:03:05.744 –> 01:03:08.065
somebody in the shoulder. I was like, excuse me. Do you mind if I step

1013
01:03:08.065 –> 01:03:11.345
in here? They’re they only have 9. They could use somebody over there. And they

1014
01:03:11.345 –> 01:03:14.730
went and they moved. And and and the instructor was

1015
01:03:14.730 –> 01:03:18.570
like, okay. You, come here. I was like, what did I

1016
01:03:18.570 –> 01:03:22.365
do? What did I do? I didn’t do anything. And she’s like, no. She’s

1017
01:03:22.365 –> 01:03:25.325
like, you didn’t do anything wrong. I just wanna point this out. And she, like,

1018
01:03:25.325 –> 01:03:29.090
made a point of it that was like, like, when you’re

1019
01:03:29.090 –> 01:03:32.930
when you’re in kinda man like, why are you jumping head first

1020
01:03:32.930 –> 01:03:36.450
in it? Like, why aren’t you to your point, I we’re we said read the

1021
01:03:36.450 –> 01:03:40.035
room about a 1,000 times on this episode of this podcast, but but,

1022
01:03:40.035 –> 01:03:43.875
like, why aren’t you trying to understand where you

1023
01:03:43.875 –> 01:03:47.600
fit best and then placing, like, placing yourself in there

1024
01:03:47.660 –> 01:03:51.420
versus just following the crowd around until something just

1025
01:03:51.420 –> 01:03:54.985
stops and happens. Right? Right. Yeah. And and so and then

1026
01:03:55.145 –> 01:03:58.585
and and she so then the exercise got even better

1027
01:03:58.585 –> 01:04:01.385
where it’s like, alright. Out of the 10 you know, we have 3 groups of

1028
01:04:01.385 –> 01:04:05.070
10. They give us all this kind of task with no instruction.

1029
01:04:05.070 –> 01:04:08.830
I want you guys to accomplish x, whatever that was. And,

1030
01:04:08.830 –> 01:04:12.335
again, I sat there. I was listening. Now I I picked the group I I

1031
01:04:12.335 –> 01:04:15.855
picked for a very particular reason. I I knew most of these people. I knew

1032
01:04:15.855 –> 01:04:19.395
their strengths and weaknesses because we were we had been in

1033
01:04:20.160 –> 01:04:22.640
we we had been in the same company with each other for a long Tom,

1034
01:04:22.640 –> 01:04:26.319
and I I’d known them. So they started talking we do this. We do

1035
01:04:26.319 –> 01:04:29.859
that. It’s 15 people going, we should just oh, no. Fifties.

1036
01:04:30.145 –> 01:04:33.985
All 9 of the other people were, like, throwing in ideas, just throwing in

1037
01:04:33.985 –> 01:04:37.825
ideas. I’m sitting there. I’m listening. I’m watching. I’m going, none of this is gonna

1038
01:04:37.825 –> 01:04:41.500
work. Right. It’s like so I just said I go, hold on a

1039
01:04:41.500 –> 01:04:44.780
second, guys. I said, can I just ask a question? They’re like, do you have

1040
01:04:44.780 –> 01:04:47.675
an idea? And I go, no. No. No. I have a question. I don’t have

1041
01:04:47.675 –> 01:04:51.435
an idea. I have a question. What makes you think each

1042
01:04:51.435 –> 01:04:55.135
of these things are gonna work? Can you just explain why

1043
01:04:55.355 –> 01:04:58.700
they’re gonna work? And And as soon as they started talking, then other people were

1044
01:04:58.700 –> 01:05:01.100
like, well, no. No. No. That’s not gonna work because of this. Oh, no. That’s

1045
01:05:01.100 –> 01:05:03.900
not gonna work because of that. And you know what? You’re right. And then okay.

1046
01:05:03.900 –> 01:05:06.615
So we can agree on this and that. And I was like, okay. So we’ve

1047
01:05:06.615 –> 01:05:10.375
eliminated, like, 4 out of the 9 here. Great. So now out of the other

1048
01:05:10.375 –> 01:05:14.100
5, everyone thinks that all the 5 these 5 are gonna be okay. And

1049
01:05:14.180 –> 01:05:17.940
I just I just I was just asking again, I didn’t tell them to do

1050
01:05:17.940 –> 01:05:21.620
anything. I was not I was just I was just trying to understand

1051
01:05:21.620 –> 01:05:25.275
because now, of course, for the this purpose,

1052
01:05:25.415 –> 01:05:28.935
this was a competitive situation. There was a prize there was a

1053
01:05:28.935 –> 01:05:32.400
prize involved at the which team came out with the best the best

1054
01:05:32.400 –> 01:05:36.240
solution to this problem. Yeah. Well, I like to

1055
01:05:36.240 –> 01:05:39.760
win. Right? I I may not I may not claim to be

1056
01:05:39.760 –> 01:05:43.445
alpha, but I like to win. I’m very competitive when it comes

1057
01:05:43.445 –> 01:05:46.245
to winning something and and being, you know

1058
01:05:47.525 –> 01:05:51.079
and I’m I’m very team oriented, so I had no problem looking at the rest

1059
01:05:51.079 –> 01:05:54.414
of the team. I did not wanna, quote unquote, be in charge

1060
01:05:54.414 –> 01:05:57.845
fourth I had no interest, but I had an interest in winning.

1061
01:05:58.325 –> 01:06:01.925
Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. That had more power. That had more power

1062
01:06:01.925 –> 01:06:05.365
to me than trying to be alpha or whatever. So I was like, okay. Now

1063
01:06:05.365 –> 01:06:08.560
we got these and I just worked through this process, and they were like, alright.

1064
01:06:08.700 –> 01:06:11.820
And then when the the instructor came back, time was up, and she goes, alright.

1065
01:06:11.820 –> 01:06:15.505
Each group has to pick a person to to present this, and they

1066
01:06:15.505 –> 01:06:18.305
want, you know, who’s gonna be the leader? Who’s gonna be the leader of this?

1067
01:06:18.305 –> 01:06:20.865
And all 9 of them said, Tom, you should be the leader. Go do this.

1068
01:06:20.865 –> 01:06:24.490
And I said, no. No. No. Time out. They want somebody that’s gonna present this

1069
01:06:24.490 –> 01:06:28.330
in a way that’s gonna help us win. I think I think Mary should do

1070
01:06:28.330 –> 01:06:31.815
it. Mhmm. Mary it was Mary’s original idea. She had the

1071
01:06:31.815 –> 01:06:35.575
best formation of the of the blah blah blah blah blah. Right? Whatever. Mhmm. Like,

1072
01:06:35.575 –> 01:06:38.775
we should have Mary do it. And they were like, oh, okay. That’s good. Alright.

1073
01:06:38.775 –> 01:06:42.310
We’ll have Mary do it. And we ended up winning that competition thing. Mhmm. And

1074
01:06:42.310 –> 01:06:46.010
when the instructor asked the group because then they they did this, like,

1075
01:06:47.030 –> 01:06:50.575
this, like, debriefing thing separately. So all the all the groups went into

1076
01:06:50.575 –> 01:06:54.414
separate rooms, and the instructors there was, like, 4 instructors for fourth this thing

1077
01:06:54.414 –> 01:06:58.060
was, like, a a 2 week long, like, deep management seminar

1078
01:06:58.120 –> 01:07:00.840
thing where they did it was 8 hours a day, 2 weeks, and it was

1079
01:07:00.840 –> 01:07:04.040
for a very big company, which I really appreciate, by the way. They did a

1080
01:07:04.040 –> 01:07:07.595
really nice job with this management training. But,

1081
01:07:07.995 –> 01:07:11.035
but anyway so they go to someone in separate rooms, and when the instructor came

1082
01:07:11.035 –> 01:07:13.995
in, they were like, oh, so Mary, you’re the leader. And Mary’s like, no. No.

1083
01:07:13.995 –> 01:07:17.140
Tom’s probably gonna be I would think Tom would be the leader. I was just

1084
01:07:17.140 –> 01:07:20.819
the presenter. Mhmm. And they were they were like, okay. So I’m confused

1085
01:07:20.819 –> 01:07:24.535
now because we asked you guys to have your leader present, and you put

1086
01:07:24.535 –> 01:07:28.135
Mary up front. And there was this huge discussion, and we ended up

1087
01:07:28.135 –> 01:07:31.520
winning simply for that because we didn’t take

1088
01:07:31.820 –> 01:07:35.520
because they gave very little instruction, but yet we

1089
01:07:35.660 –> 01:07:39.255
looked at it from a like, a very high level management

1090
01:07:39.315 –> 01:07:43.075
problem solving process. Right. We we were taking we

1091
01:07:43.075 –> 01:07:46.620
weren’t worried like, we won not because our idea was better,

1092
01:07:46.780 –> 01:07:50.220
because the process we used in the process we get there and then and how

1093
01:07:50.220 –> 01:07:53.920
we presented it was the best option that our group had.

1094
01:07:54.025 –> 01:07:57.545
It wasn’t so it was very interesting. So to your back back back to your

1095
01:07:57.545 –> 01:07:59.865
point, it was like I I think that it’s it’s

1096
01:08:01.360 –> 01:08:05.200
I I think that, like, that the whole idea of

1097
01:08:05.200 –> 01:08:08.955
a of a hierarchy now take out the

1098
01:08:08.955 –> 01:08:12.795
corporate hierarchies that we are definitely required to have. You need to have somebody

1099
01:08:12.795 –> 01:08:16.415
in charge. Like, c the c level, the VP level, the management level,

1100
01:08:16.530 –> 01:08:20.210
director levels, all that stuff makes sense to me. We need to and but but

1101
01:08:20.210 –> 01:08:23.729
I think what we where we lack is the process in which

1102
01:08:23.729 –> 01:08:27.064
we take in order to promote those people into those positions.

1103
01:08:27.365 –> 01:08:30.985
Mhmm. Yeah. My my world is the most is the

1104
01:08:31.125 –> 01:08:34.869
absolute most horrific at this. If you take

1105
01:08:34.949 –> 01:08:38.630
because you have a sales team. Right? Mhmm. You have you have 12

1106
01:08:38.630 –> 01:08:42.055
salespeople. Your sales manager quits. You go, oh,

1107
01:08:42.455 –> 01:08:46.135
Haysan’s our number one salesperson. Number 1 salesperson. He’s the

1108
01:08:46.135 –> 01:08:49.515
manager now. And then it doesn’t it doesn’t work

1109
01:08:49.910 –> 01:08:53.529
because it it’s it’s somebody like, that number one salesperson

1110
01:08:53.750 –> 01:08:57.265
oftentimes doesn’t wanna manage. They just wanna do their they just wanna sell. They

1111
01:08:57.425 –> 01:09:01.265
like, they’re the number one salesperson for a reason because they love it.

1112
01:09:01.265 –> 01:09:03.825
They love doing what they do. They don’t wanna deal with the rest of it.

1113
01:09:03.825 –> 01:09:06.930
And I think that’s part of the the real problem is understanding

1114
01:09:07.550 –> 01:09:11.390
that it doesn’t need to be a hierarchy of personality. It needs to be a

1115
01:09:11.390 –> 01:09:14.935
hierarchy of problem solving skills. The problem solving skills.

1116
01:09:14.935 –> 01:09:18.614
Yeah. Yeah. No. I would agree with that. Yeah. I rambled I

1117
01:09:18.614 –> 01:09:22.410
rambled for way Tom long. Well, no. But, I mean, my well, myself and John

1118
01:09:22.410 –> 01:09:25.950
Hill have talked about this because he’s also in in sale a consultive selling.

1119
01:09:26.250 –> 01:09:29.370
Yeah. And, and we’ve talked about this on previous podcasts.

1120
01:09:29.370 –> 01:09:33.005
Jesan it is and and and, honestly,

1121
01:09:33.005 –> 01:09:36.845
that’s part of what he focuses on is how do you take those,

1122
01:09:39.140 –> 01:09:42.979
that that person who is a leader in a very

1123
01:09:42.979 –> 01:09:46.439
particular not even a leaders, a producer in a very particular

1124
01:09:46.500 –> 01:09:50.015
space and turn them into, turn them into a leaders.

1125
01:09:50.075 –> 01:09:53.755
Because now they’re going from one type of hierarchy. We’re

1126
01:09:53.755 –> 01:09:57.570
gonna draw it and draw it altogether. They’re moving from one particular

1127
01:09:57.570 –> 01:10:00.389
hierarchy to another hierarchy with very different groups,

1128
01:10:01.170 –> 01:10:04.705
and very different metrics of success.

1129
01:10:05.245 –> 01:10:08.305
And expectations. And expectations. Correct. Exactly.

1130
01:10:08.925 –> 01:10:12.420
Alright. We’re rounding the corner here. So back to the book. It’s gonna be a

1131
01:10:12.420 –> 01:10:16.020
very short piece here, and we’re gonna wrap up. So back to the book, back

1132
01:10:16.020 –> 01:10:19.635
to, war and peace. We are still in

1133
01:10:19.635 –> 01:10:22.855
volume 1, part 1, and, in subsequent

1134
01:10:23.315 –> 01:10:26.615
episodes, we will get to volume 1, part 2

1135
01:10:26.980 –> 01:10:30.580
and volume 2, part 3 and volume 3, part

1136
01:10:30.580 –> 01:10:33.300
4. It just goes on and on folks. So,

1137
01:10:34.875 –> 01:10:38.554
hang out. We’re gonna be at war and peace for, like I was

1138
01:10:38.554 –> 01:10:40.815
saying before, potentially years.

1139
01:10:43.090 –> 01:10:46.690
Again, that turning Floyd song on, dark side of the

1140
01:10:46.690 –> 01:10:50.315
moon years. Absolutely leaders I’ve been down here. Most of

1141
01:10:50.315 –> 01:10:54.075
us have, though. If you

1142
01:10:54.075 –> 01:10:57.630
could name what song that is, send me an email, and I’ll send you a

1143
01:10:57.630 –> 01:11:00.350
I’ll send you a no prize like they used to out of the back of

1144
01:11:00.350 –> 01:11:03.330
Marvel Comics back in the day when you had some odd mistake.

1145
01:11:04.190 –> 01:11:05.890
Stanley would send you a no prize.

1146
01:11:08.655 –> 01:11:11.155
Back to the book, volume 1 part 1 chapter 5.

1147
01:11:12.494 –> 01:11:16.315
Very short piece here. Turning Anna Pavlovna for a delightful turning.

1148
01:11:16.335 –> 01:11:19.850
The guests began to go home. So this is after Anna Pavlovna’s

1149
01:11:20.070 –> 01:11:23.590
party, but before Pierre and Anatoli’s shenanigans with

1150
01:11:23.590 –> 01:11:27.425
Dolikov in the window. And this is, by the way,

1151
01:11:27.425 –> 01:11:31.184
where we meet Pierre. Pierre was ungainly, stout, quite

1152
01:11:31.184 –> 01:11:34.840
tall, and possessed of a huge of huge red hands. It

1153
01:11:34.840 –> 01:11:37.800
was said of him that he had no idea how to enter a drawing room

1154
01:11:37.800 –> 01:11:41.560
and was worse still at withdrawing from 1 or saying something nice

1155
01:11:41.560 –> 01:11:45.375
as he left. He was also absent minded. He stood up now

1156
01:11:45.375 –> 01:11:48.975
picking up a general’s nicely plumed 3 quarter hat instead of his own and held

1157
01:11:48.975 –> 01:11:52.740
onto it, pulling up the feathers until the general asked for it back. But

1158
01:11:52.820 –> 01:11:56.260
all his absent mindedness and his inability to enter a drawing room or talk properly

1159
01:11:56.260 –> 01:11:59.960
once inside it were redeemed by his expression of good natured simplicity

1160
01:12:00.180 –> 01:12:03.815
and modesty. Anat Pavlovra turned to him, forgiving

1161
01:12:03.815 –> 01:12:07.495
his outburst with Christian humility, nodded, and said, I hope we shall see you

1162
01:12:07.495 –> 01:12:11.130
again. Well, I also hope you will change your ideas, my dear Monsieur

1163
01:12:11.130 –> 01:12:14.890
Pierre. She spoke, but he didn’t answer. All he

1164
01:12:14.890 –> 01:12:18.465
did was bow and show everyone another of his smiles, a smile that simply said,

1165
01:12:18.545 –> 01:12:22.244
never mind ideas. Look at what a nice, good natured, good hearted fellow I am.

1166
01:12:22.625 –> 01:12:26.405
And everyone, including Anna Pavlovna, couldn’t help but agree.

1167
01:12:26.960 –> 01:12:29.760
Prince Andrei had got out in the hall, and as he offered his shoulders to

1168
01:12:29.760 –> 01:12:33.520
the servant, ready with his cloak, he listened indifferently to

1169
01:12:33.520 –> 01:12:37.095
his wife as she chattered with prince Hippolyte who had come

1170
01:12:37.095 –> 01:12:40.855
along with her. Hippolyte stood close to the pregnant little princess

1171
01:12:40.855 –> 01:12:44.395
who book so pretty and stared at her through his fourth yet.

1172
01:12:44.870 –> 01:12:48.650
Go back inside, Annette. You’ll catch colds with literature princess taking leave of Anna Pavlovna.

1173
01:12:49.110 –> 01:12:52.950
It is settled then, she added quietly. Anna Pavlovna had managed to have

1174
01:12:52.950 –> 01:12:55.915
a few words with Liza about the mass she was setting up between Anatole and

1175
01:12:56.011 –> 01:12:59.835
Libby princess’s sister-in-law. I’m relying on you, my dear, said Anna. By

1176
01:12:59.835 –> 01:13:03.350
the way, pause. That’s an example of what Tom was talking about

1177
01:13:03.590 –> 01:13:07.050
previously about going to parties and networking with the right people. Right?

1178
01:13:07.590 –> 01:13:11.355
Paolona wanted to use her party to

1179
01:13:11.355 –> 01:13:15.055
create social connections, for, Saint Petersburg

1180
01:13:15.435 –> 01:13:17.935
society and, of course, for Russian society.

1181
01:13:19.199 –> 01:13:22.960
Back to the book. I’m relying on you, my dear, said Anna Pablo,

1182
01:13:22.960 –> 01:13:26.320
no less quietly. Write to her and let me know how her father sees things.

1183
01:13:26.320 –> 01:13:29.925
Au revoir. And she left the hall. Principal

1184
01:13:30.705 –> 01:13:33.985
moved in on the little princess Jesan bending down with his face close to her,

1185
01:13:33.985 –> 01:13:37.550
started speaking to her in a half whisper. 2 servants, 1

1186
01:13:37.844 –> 01:13:40.670
essays, the other his own, stood with the shawl and co waiting for them to

1187
01:13:40.670 –> 01:13:44.455
finish talking. The French was incomprehensible to them, but the servant’s

1188
01:13:44.455 –> 01:13:48.215
face suggested for all the world that they did understand what was being said,

1189
01:13:48.215 –> 01:13:52.055
though they would never show it. The princess has always smiled as

1190
01:13:52.055 –> 01:13:55.730
she talked and laughed when she listened. I’m so glad I

1191
01:13:55.730 –> 01:13:59.090
didn’t go to the ambassadors, Prince Hippolyte was saying. Such a bore. This has been

1192
01:13:59.090 –> 01:14:02.755
a delightful evening, hasn’t it? Delightful. They say it will be a very fine

1193
01:14:02.755 –> 01:14:06.435
ball, answered the little princess, drawing up her downy little lip. All our

1194
01:14:06.435 –> 01:14:10.275
pretty women will be there. Not all of them. You won’t be there, said principal

1195
01:14:10.275 –> 01:14:13.860
light with a happy laugh. Then he snatched the shawl from the servant, shoving him

1196
01:14:13.860 –> 01:14:17.639
out of the way, and began dripping it around little princess. Either from awkwardness

1197
01:14:17.699 –> 01:14:21.265
or deliberately, no one could have said which, He kept his arms around her for

1198
01:14:21.265 –> 01:14:24.705
some time after the shawl had been put on, seeming to clasp the young woman

1199
01:14:24.705 –> 01:14:28.420
in his embrace. With good grace and still

1200
01:14:28.420 –> 01:14:32.020
smiling, she wriggled free, turned and glanced at her husband. Prince

1201
01:14:32.020 –> 01:14:35.400
Andrei’s eyes were closed. He seemed to be weary and drowsy.

1202
01:14:35.995 –> 01:14:39.435
Are you ready? He asked his wife, looking over her head. Prince

1203
01:14:39.435 –> 01:14:43.275
Hippolyta hurried into his long coat. It was the last word in fashion going

1204
01:14:43.275 –> 01:14:46.620
right down to his heels, and he caught his foot in it as he ran

1205
01:14:46.620 –> 01:14:50.380
out onto the steps after the princess. A servant was assisting her into

1206
01:14:50.380 –> 01:14:54.045
the carriage. Au revoir, princess, he yelled, his tongue tripping over

1207
01:14:54.125 –> 01:14:57.725
things just like his legs. The princess picked up her

1208
01:14:57.725 –> 01:15:00.685
gown and took her seat, settling back into the darkness of the carriage while her

1209
01:15:00.685 –> 01:15:04.410
husband was arranging his sword. Principal Light pretended to

1210
01:15:04.410 –> 01:15:08.110
help, but all he did was get in the way. If you don’t mind,

1211
01:15:08.170 –> 01:15:11.770
sir, said prince Andre curtly and pointedly in

1212
01:15:11.770 –> 01:15:14.795
Russian to principal Light who was standing in his way.

1213
01:15:15.735 –> 01:15:19.255
I’ll see you soon, Pierre, said the same voice in warm and friendly

1214
01:15:19.255 –> 01:15:22.950
tones. The coachman jerked forward, and the carriage rattled

1215
01:15:22.950 –> 01:15:26.790
off. Principal Light honked with laughter as he

1216
01:15:26.790 –> 01:15:30.455
stood on the steps waiting for the viscount having promised

1217
01:15:30.455 –> 01:15:32.635
to drop him off at home.

1218
01:15:41.770 –> 01:15:45.450
One of the interesting things about books like War and Peace, and you

1219
01:15:45.450 –> 01:15:49.275
see this in a little bit in The Brothers Karamazov because but Dostoevsky

1220
01:15:49.575 –> 01:15:53.195
was way more pessimistic and dour than Tolstoy and less romantic.

1221
01:15:53.850 –> 01:15:57.310
So he didn’t didn’t really care about the romance between men and women.

1222
01:15:57.850 –> 01:16:01.390
And you kind of get some of it in Anton Chekhov’s short stories as well.

1223
01:16:02.035 –> 01:16:05.635
Is this idea of the arrangements between men and women and the

1224
01:16:05.635 –> 01:16:09.315
relationships between men and women and at a particularly an

1225
01:16:09.315 –> 01:16:12.520
aristocratic level, how those relationships

1226
01:16:13.140 –> 01:16:15.320
cycle together. And

1227
01:16:20.415 –> 01:16:23.695
there’s an old school word that I’m going to use here at the end of

1228
01:16:23.695 –> 01:16:27.455
the podcast that is sort of being set

1229
01:16:27.455 –> 01:16:31.100
up here, describes the relationship

1230
01:16:31.160 –> 01:16:34.780
that is being set up. And by the way, Prince Andre

1231
01:16:35.000 –> 01:16:38.765
recognizes this, principal light recognizes this,

1232
01:16:38.765 –> 01:16:41.505
and the princess, the pregnant princess,

1233
01:16:42.445 –> 01:16:45.910
recognizes this as well. And it is a system of

1234
01:16:45.910 –> 01:16:49.670
cuckoldry that is being set up. Now

1235
01:16:49.670 –> 01:16:52.650
we don’t talk about this in polite society in America because,

1236
01:16:53.395 –> 01:16:56.435
God forbid, we talk about that in polite society in America. We talk about every

1237
01:16:56.435 –> 01:17:00.035
other form of sexual behavior, but not that. We

1238
01:17:00.035 –> 01:17:03.780
also don’t talk about the nature of how affairs begin

1239
01:17:03.958 –> 01:17:07.780
Tom move relationships with each other. And what Tolstoy is setting

1240
01:17:07.780 –> 01:17:11.480
up is that as well. By the way, we find out later on

1241
01:17:12.025 –> 01:17:15.545
that prince Andre and the pregnant princess are having trouble with their

1242
01:17:15.545 –> 01:17:19.165
marriage because prince Andre wants to go off and fight a war,

1243
01:17:19.330 –> 01:17:23.010
and his wife who is pregnant wants him to stay at home, and he

1244
01:17:23.010 –> 01:17:26.770
has zero interest in staying at home. As a matter of fact,

1245
01:17:26.770 –> 01:17:30.474
he tells Pierre, basically, don’t ever get married

1246
01:17:30.474 –> 01:17:34.074
because women will stop you from having ambition while his

1247
01:17:34.074 –> 01:17:35.375
wife is sitting there.

1248
01:17:39.679 –> 01:17:43.280
These kinds of things happen in Tolstoy all the time, though. They happen in all

1249
01:17:43.280 –> 01:17:46.784
kinds of books he wrote because he was in those drawing rooms and he saw

1250
01:17:46.784 –> 01:17:50.145
those relationships between people in Russian culture, and he wrote honestly about

1251
01:17:50.145 –> 01:17:53.900
it. And it does create a sense

1252
01:17:53.900 –> 01:17:56.720
of low drama, which, of course,

1253
01:17:57.420 –> 01:18:01.020
makes for the higher drama that’s going to occur later on the

1254
01:18:01.020 –> 01:18:04.495
battlefields of Napoleon. Tom makes it a lot sharper,

1255
01:18:04.495 –> 01:18:08.335
particularly with what’s about to happen to prince Andre and even the

1256
01:18:08.335 –> 01:18:08.835
princess.

1257
01:18:12.080 –> 01:18:15.619
I guess maybe I would close our episode today

1258
01:18:15.840 –> 01:18:19.335
because Tom has to go as do I with this

1259
01:18:19.335 –> 01:18:22.775
question. It is gonna be open ended because it’s war and peace and it’s

1260
01:18:22.775 –> 01:18:25.495
1400 pages. So we might as well have an open ended question to end this

1261
01:18:25.495 –> 01:18:25.995
episode.

1262
01:18:30.000 –> 01:18:33.760
What do we do with those interpersonal human relationships between

1263
01:18:33.760 –> 01:18:37.480
men and women that are the the trip writers

1264
01:18:37.855 –> 01:18:41.054
that lead to larger things. Because we don’t talk about those trip wires in our

1265
01:18:41.054 –> 01:18:44.895
culture. We talk about literally everything else, but we

1266
01:18:44.895 –> 01:18:48.710
don’t talk about the CEO that can’t they can’t get along

1267
01:18:48.710 –> 01:18:51.670
at home fourth every time he goes to a party or she goes to a

1268
01:18:51.670 –> 01:18:55.350
party, their partner or their husband or their wife is off

1269
01:18:55.350 –> 01:18:59.185
doing something that we don’t. And when those things are revealed, as in the case

1270
01:18:59.185 –> 01:19:02.945
of Nancy Pelosi and Paul Pelosi, I’ll just use those as two examples most recently

1271
01:19:02.945 –> 01:19:06.449
in the American public, we all pretend to be shocked and kind of side eye

1272
01:19:06.449 –> 01:19:10.170
and move away from it. And yet this is what’s been going

1273
01:19:10.170 –> 01:19:13.925
on for literally since men and women were created.

1274
01:19:15.105 –> 01:19:18.545
Literally. But we can’t but in our in our brazenly open

1275
01:19:18.545 –> 01:19:22.280
society, we can’t talk about this. And that is a weird thing to me. And

1276
01:19:22.280 –> 01:19:25.720
what Tolstoy does, this is why it’s a throwback book. He

1277
01:19:25.720 –> 01:19:29.500
reveals all of that, and he says, no. This is actually what’s going on.

1278
01:19:30.284 –> 01:19:33.025
He doesn’t make a judgment about it. He just says, this is what’s going on,

1279
01:19:35.244 –> 01:19:38.210
and we don’t seem to know what to do with that. It kinda makes us

1280
01:19:38.210 –> 01:19:41.730
uncomfortable. It’s making Tom uncomfortable right now just having him think about it. Like, it’s

1281
01:19:41.730 –> 01:19:45.410
up by his face. Oh, I’m not I’m not I wouldn’t say uncomfortable. I’m just

1282
01:19:45.410 –> 01:19:48.475
trying to I’m trying to figure out what, like, what kind of response I would

1283
01:19:48.475 –> 01:19:52.315
have to this because, quite honestly, I’m not I’m really not sure.

1284
01:19:52.315 –> 01:19:55.775
Like, I I think I think for me again, this is

1285
01:19:56.270 –> 01:19:59.950
really more it’s this is a personal

1286
01:19:59.950 –> 01:20:03.490
response, not a response of society and and and general generalities,

1287
01:20:03.630 –> 01:20:05.650
but I’ve always found it

1288
01:20:07.265 –> 01:20:11.025
I’ve always found that communication is key. Right? Like, the the

1289
01:20:11.665 –> 01:20:14.805
well, first of all, if if my significant other,

1290
01:20:15.800 –> 01:20:19.560
cheated on me and my family acted surprised, that

1291
01:20:19.560 –> 01:20:23.160
would be my fault for not ever giving them any indication that there was a

1292
01:20:23.160 –> 01:20:26.935
problem in the marriage. Right? Like Right. So so I think I think it’s

1293
01:20:27.415 –> 01:20:31.175
I think there’s a I I think the rules are just different

1294
01:20:31.175 –> 01:20:34.700
when it comes to people in the public eye. Right? Like, Yeah. Because no matter

1295
01:20:34.760 –> 01:20:38.520
no matter how bad things are at home, that forward

1296
01:20:38.520 –> 01:20:42.120
facing, they’re gonna give you the the they’re gonna give you some sort

1297
01:20:42.120 –> 01:20:45.925
of facade because they they they

1298
01:20:45.925 –> 01:20:48.885
want you to vote for them again. So you’re not gonna vote for somebody who

1299
01:20:48.885 –> 01:20:52.650
has turmoil at home. You’re gonna vote for somebody that’s that’s showing that

1300
01:20:52.650 –> 01:20:56.489
they have all of their stuff together, so to speak. And Well, you

1301
01:20:56.489 –> 01:21:00.270
have to see this with the royal family in England. Like Yes. What’s her name,

1302
01:21:00.535 –> 01:21:03.355
You know, wasn’t around whoever Williams,

1303
01:21:04.935 –> 01:21:08.670
Kate that that woman, Kate. She wasn’t around or whatever. Middleton or

1304
01:21:08.910 –> 01:21:12.750
Middleton something. I don’t know. I find it annoying that attention to your

1305
01:21:12.750 –> 01:21:15.650
family. I find it annoying that I have to know who these people are.

1306
01:21:16.525 –> 01:21:20.364
Like, I find it incredibly annoying. But they are the they

1307
01:21:20.364 –> 01:21:22.945
are the kind of people that told Sorrells writing about. Yes.

1308
01:21:24.284 –> 01:21:28.060
And, you know, there’s whispered speculation about this and that and

1309
01:21:28.060 –> 01:21:30.780
this and no and the other and all this other kind of stuff. And I,

1310
01:21:30.780 –> 01:21:34.375
of course, me, I’m over here in the corner like the kid, like the guy

1311
01:21:34.375 –> 01:21:37.255
curled up in the sofa. I’m the guy curled up in the sofa going, I

1312
01:21:37.255 –> 01:21:41.095
don’t care, into my pillow. Stop yelling at me about

1313
01:21:41.095 –> 01:21:44.789
this. Yeah. But they are those kinds of people. And,

1314
01:21:45.170 –> 01:21:48.469
like, they weren’t voted in, but they’re public people. Right.

1315
01:21:48.849 –> 01:21:52.130
And by the way, I’m I’m talking about anybody public. It doesn’t have to be

1316
01:21:52.130 –> 01:21:55.715
a public like, a a voted figure, but think about all the

1317
01:21:55.715 –> 01:21:59.555
Hollywood, you know, Hollywood Sorrells that when they break up, everyone’s

1318
01:21:59.555 –> 01:22:02.400
like, oh my god. I can’t believe they broke up. And And you find out

1319
01:22:02.480 –> 01:22:05.840
well, because every time they walk on the red carpet, they’re hand in hand and

1320
01:22:05.840 –> 01:22:09.679
they’re smiling and they’re they’re actors and actresses so that they they’re pretending

1321
01:22:09.679 –> 01:22:12.745
that everything’s okay, and we love them, and we think they’re they got the greatest

1322
01:22:12.745 –> 01:22:15.385
relationship ever. And and then we find out they break up and then we’re like

1323
01:22:15.465 –> 01:22:19.230
and we’re scratching our head. I I I think go go back

1324
01:22:19.230 –> 01:22:22.750
to again, so me personally. Mhmm. Personally, for

1325
01:22:22.750 –> 01:22:26.190
me, communication is the key. I

1326
01:22:26.190 –> 01:22:29.985
don’t want to there’s a reason that people say that

1327
01:22:29.985 –> 01:22:33.364
the more truthful you are, the better memory you have.

1328
01:22:33.745 –> 01:22:37.400
Right? Like, because you don’t if if you’re not lying and you’re trying to

1329
01:22:37.400 –> 01:22:40.760
remember all these lies that you’re telling your friends and family about your relationship or

1330
01:22:40.760 –> 01:22:44.285
about what’s going on in your life or whatever, the easier it is to communicate

1331
01:22:44.285 –> 01:22:47.725
with them. And the easier it is to communicate with them, the more the more

1332
01:22:47.725 –> 01:22:51.460
in tune to you they are. And when when the feces hits

1333
01:22:51.460 –> 01:22:55.219
the fan, they’re not surprised, and they’re there to help

1334
01:22:55.219 –> 01:22:58.955
you through it. And they’re not they’re not surprised, and they’re

1335
01:22:58.955 –> 01:23:02.635
not they’re not and they’re and if they’re still willing to be a a

1336
01:23:02.635 –> 01:23:06.075
willing participant in your recovery through whatever process you just went

1337
01:23:06.075 –> 01:23:09.690
through, that’s why they’re there. That’s

1338
01:23:09.690 –> 01:23:13.369
why your family and friends are there. Okay. So that’s at the

1339
01:23:13.369 –> 01:23:16.864
heavy end of this. Yes. What is described in this

1340
01:23:16.864 –> 01:23:20.625
passage is what some people during

1341
01:23:20.705 –> 01:23:24.080
actually, what people during that time and probably even people during this time will describe

1342
01:23:24.080 –> 01:23:27.920
as a light flirtation. Sure. Right? Hippolyte is is is

1343
01:23:27.920 –> 01:23:31.440
lightly flirting with this guy’s wife in front of the guy, which, by the

1344
01:23:31.440 –> 01:23:35.285
way, like, he’s hip holding. I don’t know if you noticed, dude.

1345
01:23:35.345 –> 01:23:38.645
Old books got a sword. Yeah.

1346
01:23:39.985 –> 01:23:43.680
Like, he might like, guys don’t actually carry around swords unless they know how to

1347
01:23:43.680 –> 01:23:47.520
use them. Like, so what are you

1348
01:23:47.520 –> 01:23:51.275
doing anyway? Anyway and and then, by the way, was it mentioned that the

1349
01:23:51.275 –> 01:23:55.035
prince who was stripping over his his coat of latest fashion didn’t

1350
01:23:55.035 –> 01:23:58.800
mention he was carrying a sword? So you came unarmed to a sword fight.

1351
01:23:58.940 –> 01:24:00.560
Yeah. That seems like a bad idea.

1352
01:24:03.020 –> 01:24:03.260
But,

1353
01:24:08.305 –> 01:24:11.825
the Billy Graham rule. We’ve never talked about that on this podcast, but the Billy

1354
01:24:11.825 –> 01:24:15.470
Graham rule, the, the old field, the old the the now deceased theologian,

1355
01:24:15.470 –> 01:24:19.310
Billy Graham, used to have a rule. And his rule was he never traveled

1356
01:24:19.310 –> 01:24:22.764
with a woman that wasn’t his wife. He was never in a room with a

1357
01:24:22.764 –> 01:24:26.525
woman that wasn’t his wife. He wouldn’t even go Tom, like, a hotel

1358
01:24:26.525 –> 01:24:30.200
bar, writers, of a conference that he was at with a woman that wasn’t his

1359
01:24:30.200 –> 01:24:34.040
wife. He didn’t wanna be seen there because as a theologian, he

1360
01:24:34.040 –> 01:24:37.554
knew that just like the Caesars of old, the appearance of

1361
01:24:37.554 –> 01:24:41.014
impropriety can sometimes stand in in fourth impropriety itself.

1362
01:24:41.395 –> 01:24:45.220
And a lot of people hated on Billy Graham, a lot of women in particular

1363
01:24:45.220 –> 01:24:48.260
because they were like, well, how am I gonna network with him if I can’t

1364
01:24:48.260 –> 01:24:50.760
and that, that, that, that, that, you know, this whole dynamic. Right?

1365
01:24:52.100 –> 01:24:55.665
And, you know, I think objections like that fundamentally

1366
01:24:56.925 –> 01:25:00.765
ignore the dynamics between men and women and the potential for dynamics

1367
01:25:00.765 –> 01:25:03.800
between men and women. And I think the Billy Graham rule fundamentally

1368
01:25:05.140 –> 01:25:08.120
acknowledges those differences,

1369
01:25:09.060 –> 01:25:12.755
but it does so in a way that says it’s on the man to

1370
01:25:12.755 –> 01:25:16.215
make the decision, not on not on somebody else. Okay.

1371
01:25:19.190 –> 01:25:20.010
If I’m a

1372
01:25:23.750 –> 01:25:27.590
leader, should I be engaged with propriety with my with my female

1373
01:25:27.590 –> 01:25:30.915
subordinates? Should I be engaged with propriety

1374
01:25:30.975 –> 01:25:34.655
there? Should I have some sort of boundaries set up if

1375
01:25:34.655 –> 01:25:37.690
I’m a male leader? And by the way, if I’m a female leader, should I

1376
01:25:37.690 –> 01:25:41.370
be having some some that, you know, that should I have boundaries? Should

1377
01:25:41.370 –> 01:25:44.810
that be a thing? You know, in

1378
01:25:44.810 –> 01:25:48.324
in I would say probably

1379
01:25:48.324 –> 01:25:52.164
95% of the cases, absolutely yes. Absolutely

1380
01:25:52.164 –> 01:25:55.990
yes. Billy Graham’s rule of of thumb probably is not

1381
01:25:55.990 –> 01:25:59.350
the worst thing in the world. And and by the way, you keep saying or

1382
01:25:59.350 –> 01:26:02.605
you you said I won’t be in I won’t be in a room with a

1383
01:26:02.605 –> 01:26:06.065
woman that’s not my wife. It’s more about I won’t be in a room alone

1384
01:26:06.125 –> 01:26:09.490
with a woman that’s not my wife. Right? So I just wanna make sure there’s

1385
01:26:09.490 –> 01:26:13.330
a distinction there. There’s a there’s a distinction there because, again, if you’re in

1386
01:26:13.330 –> 01:26:16.370
a room full of people and the woman that and you happen to be talking

1387
01:26:16.370 –> 01:26:18.070
to a woman, it’s not nearly

1388
01:26:20.055 –> 01:26:23.755
as Egregious. Yes. Or or potentially

1389
01:26:23.895 –> 01:26:27.630
impropriety, impropriety looking.

1390
01:26:27.630 –> 01:26:31.310
Right? Mhmm. So whereas if you’re in a, in a room alone with a

1391
01:26:31.310 –> 01:26:34.835
woman that’s not your wife, that that could potentially be taken a a whole hell

1392
01:26:34.835 –> 01:26:37.795
of a lot of different ways. And I I I agree with that part. So

1393
01:26:37.795 –> 01:26:41.555
so, yeah, I I don’t see where this could be a bad thing for you

1394
01:26:41.555 –> 01:26:45.160
if you’re a leader and fourth and your in a your subordinate

1395
01:26:45.300 –> 01:26:48.980
happens to be female. Now, there I understand that

1396
01:26:48.980 –> 01:26:52.795
there might be situations where

1397
01:26:52.795 –> 01:26:56.235
you just simply can’t avoid it. You’re in your office. She comes in your office

1398
01:26:56.235 –> 01:26:59.355
to ask you a question. You’re alone in a in a room without your wife.

1399
01:26:59.355 –> 01:27:03.040
But if it were me, I’d make sure that office has glass walls.

1400
01:27:03.900 –> 01:27:07.660
And open doors. Open fourth. Do not so so instead, the

1401
01:27:07.660 –> 01:27:10.764
rule the rule of thumb is if you come into my office, do not close

1402
01:27:10.764 –> 01:27:14.545
the door. Right? So you can still put yourself in better positions

1403
01:27:14.605 –> 01:27:17.745
than you than to make sure. And, again, I agree with you

1404
01:27:18.400 –> 01:27:22.000
a 110% that the leader is irrelevant whether it’s male or

1405
01:27:22.000 –> 01:27:25.645
female. I think the same rules apply, especially in today’s world. The same rules

1406
01:27:25.645 –> 01:27:28.945
apply. I don’t think that you should be excluded because you’re a woman and

1407
01:27:29.565 –> 01:27:33.360
people think that think what? That you can’t have impropriety? Of fourth, you can. You

1408
01:27:33.520 –> 01:27:36.720
and you could be accused of things just like everybody else. So I I think

1409
01:27:36.720 –> 01:27:40.080
that the same rules apply absolutely. And but I think that I think you should

1410
01:27:41.304 –> 01:27:45.145
again, I go back to communication is the ultimate weapon in this

1411
01:27:45.145 –> 01:27:48.640
environment. Right. If you if you have all if you

1412
01:27:48.640 –> 01:27:52.080
have protocols already in place, right, and it’s and it’s

1413
01:27:52.080 –> 01:27:55.784
it’s very well known that these are the protocols, then

1414
01:27:55.864 –> 01:27:59.224
because it could it could potentially backfire you the other way. Right? Mhmm. So if

1415
01:27:59.224 –> 01:28:02.425
a if a if a male if a male subordinate comes in the room and

1416
01:28:02.425 –> 01:28:05.770
he’s allowed to shut the door but a female is not, that could be taken

1417
01:28:05.770 –> 01:28:09.530
that could be taken as a discriminatory act. Mhmm. So if you

1418
01:28:09.530 –> 01:28:12.810
treat everybody the same and you say, if you are the only person in my

1419
01:28:12.810 –> 01:28:16.525
office, the door stays open regardless if you’re male or female, that eliminates you

1420
01:28:16.525 –> 01:28:19.985
from that that that discriminatory act as well.

1421
01:28:20.205 –> 01:28:23.450
Mhmm. But if but if it’s a known if it’s a known protocol,

1422
01:28:23.670 –> 01:28:27.510
meaning this is how my office is going to run. If

1423
01:28:27.510 –> 01:28:30.870
you and 2 other people come in the door and you wanna shut the door,

1424
01:28:30.870 –> 01:28:34.645
that’s fine. But no one person is gonna leave the door open, I wanna make

1425
01:28:34.645 –> 01:28:38.485
that very well known, make it a make make it a form of

1426
01:28:38.485 –> 01:28:42.239
communication protocol. So if you if your company has communication

1427
01:28:42.380 –> 01:28:45.980
protocols, which by the way would also categorize, you

1428
01:28:45.980 –> 01:28:49.825
know, if I email you, this is the time response. If you text me, the

1429
01:28:49.825 –> 01:28:52.945
time response. If you, you know, if you call me and you leave a voice

1430
01:28:52.945 –> 01:28:56.465
mail, the time response. If you come into my office, leave the door open. Like,

1431
01:28:56.465 –> 01:29:00.290
you know, it’s it’s a form of communication protocol

1432
01:29:00.290 –> 01:29:03.650
that you can have laid out for everybody as a rule, which

1433
01:29:03.650 –> 01:29:07.435
eliminates the discriminatory potential of it. But I think,

1434
01:29:07.435 –> 01:29:11.114
to me, I think communication communication, all of that

1435
01:29:11.114 –> 01:29:14.415
is that is the most relevant thing when it comes to those types of environments.

1436
01:29:15.900 –> 01:29:19.340
And with that, we’re at the end of chipping

1437
01:29:19.340 –> 01:29:23.040
away the first essays layer,

1438
01:29:23.875 –> 01:29:27.395
of Leo Tolstoy’s word piece. Join

1439
01:29:27.395 –> 01:29:31.235
us for part 2 of this at some time in the near

1440
01:29:31.235 –> 01:29:34.630
future on an episode of Leadership Lessons from the Great Books

1441
01:29:34.630 –> 01:29:38.470
podcast, Near You. Once again, I would like to thank Tom Libby

1442
01:29:38.470 –> 01:29:41.450
for coming on today. And, with that,

1443
01:29:43.335 –> 01:29:44.155
we’re out.