Leadership Lessons From The Great Books – History of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides

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Hello. My name is Jesan Sorrells, and this is

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the Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast, episode

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number 126.

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There are a few books that sit or

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serve as the cornerstones of

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Western philosophy and have

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influenced approaches to life in everything from

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government to the military. One of those books

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is the Bible. The other books include the works of

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Shakespeare. Marcus Aurelius is also down there, right

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alongside Homer. However, there is

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one other book that overshadows them all and stands as a

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groundbreaking work focused on relating history to the reader as

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a story of great men performing great deeds.

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The author laid the groundwork for subsequent generations in the west to

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understand human nature in crises such as plagues, massacres,

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and, of course, the endless nature of man

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inside of warfare. Today, we

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will be pulling the leadership lessons for postmodern

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leaders from a hoary old book, a hoary old

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history, the history of the Peloponnesian

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War by Thucydides.

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Leaders, the lessons you learn and apply from, well,

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Thucydides can create ripples in the lives of people you may never

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even meet down and past the

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4th generation.

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And we pick up with the history of the

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Peloponnesian War. We open with

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a, the Penguin Books translation by Rex Warner

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with introduction and notes by Mi Finley. We’re not going to be reading from

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the introduction or the notes today. Instead, we’re going

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to jump right in to the book, and we’re going to pick

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up with, well, Thucydides’

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introduction. And I quote,

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Thucydides the Athenian wrote the history of the war fought between Athens

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and Sparta, beginning the account at the very outbreak of the war

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in the belief that it was going to be a great war and more worth

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writing about than any of those which had taken place in the past.

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My belief was based on the fact that the two sides were at the very

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height of their power and preparedness, and I saw too that the rest of the

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Hellenic world was committed to one side or the other, even those who were not

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immediately engaged or deliberating on the courses which they were to take later.

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This was the greatest disturbance in the history of the Hellenes

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affecting also a large part of the non Hellenic world, and

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indeed, I might almost say the whole of mankind. For though I

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have found it impossible because of its remoteness in time to acquire a

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really precise knowledge of the distant past or even of the history preceding our own

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period, yet after looking back into it as far as I can, all the

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evidence leads me to conclude that these periods were not great periods either in

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warfare or in anything else.

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In the years, for example, the country now called Hellas had no settled population in

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ancient times. Instead, there was a series of migrations as the various tribes,

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being under the constant pressure of invaders who were stronger than they were, were always

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prepared to abandon in their own territory. There was no

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commerce and no safe communication either by land or sea. The use they

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made of their land was limited to the production of necessities. They had no

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surplus left for calf left over for capital and no regular system of

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agriculture since they lacked the protection of fortifications. And at any

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moment, an invader might appear and take their land away from them.

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Thus, in the belief that the day to day necessities of life could be secured

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just as well in one place as another, They showed no reluctance in moving from

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their homes and therefore built no cities of any size or strength nor required

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any important resources. Where the soil was most fertile,

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there were the most frequent changes of population, as in what is now

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called Thessaly and Boeotia, and most of the Peloponnese,

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except Arcadia, and in others of the richest parts of Hellas.

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For in these fertile districts, it was easier for individuals to secure greater powers

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than their neighbors. This led to disunity, which often caused the collapse of these

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states, which in any case are more likely, than others

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to attract the attention of foreign invaders.

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It is interesting to observe that Attica, which because of the poverty of her soil,

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was remarkably free from political disunity, has always been inhabited by the same race

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of people. Indeed, this is an important example of my theory that it was

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because of migrations that there was an uneven development elsewhere.

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For when people were driven out from other parts of Greece by war

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or by disturbances, the most powerful of them took refuge in

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Athens as being a stable society. Then they

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became citizens and soon made the city even more populous than it had been before,

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with the result that later Attica became too small for our inhabitants

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and colonies were sent out to Ionia.

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Another point which seems to be good evidence for the weakness of the early inhabitants

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of the country is this. We have no record of any action taken by Hellas

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as a whole before the Trojan War. Indeed, my view is that at this time,

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the whole country was not even called Hellas. Before the time of Helen, the son

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of Deucalion, the name did not exist at all, and different parts were known

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by the names of different tribes, with the name Pelagasian predominating.

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After Helen and his sons had grown powerful in Phytheadias and had

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been invited as allies into other states, these states separately and

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because of their connections with the family of Helen became to be called Hellenic.

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But it took a long time before the name ousted all other names. The

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best evidence for this can be found in Homer, who, though he was born much

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later than the time of the Trojan War, nowhere uses the name

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Hellenic for the whole force. Instead, he keeps his name for the followers

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of Achilles, who came from Phaethetus and were, in fact, the original

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Hellenes. For the rest of his poem, he uses the words

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Danaans, Argives, and Achaeans. He doesn’t even use the term

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foreigners, and this, in my opinion, is because in his time, the Hellenes

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were not yet known by one name and so marked off as something separate from

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the outside world. By Hellenic, I mean here,

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both those who took the name of the city by city and as a result

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of common language and those who later were all called by the common

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name. In any case, these various Hellenic states,

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weak in themselves and lacking in communications with one another, took no kind

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of collective action before the time of the Trojan War, and they

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could not have united even for the Trojan

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expedition unless they had previously acquired

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a greater knowledge of seafaring.

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So let’s take a look at the life of our

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author Thucydides. Born

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460 and died around 400 BC, Thucydides

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was an Athenian historian and gentleman,

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and general as well, not just a gentleman. His history of the

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Peloponnesian War recounts the 5th century BC

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war between Sparta and Athens that lasted until the

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year 4 11 BC.

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Thucydides has been dubbed the father of quote unquote scientific

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history by those who accept his claims.

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And, his claims include, having applied strict standards

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of impartiality in evidence gathering and analysis of cause and

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effect without reference to intervention by the gods.

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He did mention Homer in that piece that I just read as outlined in the

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introduction to his work. Thucydides says,

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when he talks about himself on the rare occasions that he does in the history

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of the Peloponnesian War, that he fought in the Peloponnesian War

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itself. He contracted the plague and was exiled

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by the subsequent democracy. He

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may also have been involved, we’re not quite sure, in quelling

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the Samian revolt. A

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disputed anecdote from the city’s early days says

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that when he was around 10 to 12 years old, he and his

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father were supposed to have gone to the Agora of Athens where the young

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Thucydides heard a lecture by the historian Herodotus.

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According to some accounts, the young Thucydides wept with joy after

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hearing the lecture, deciding that writing history would be his life’s

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calling. The same account also claims that after the

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lecture Herodotus spoke with the youth and his father stating,

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‘Alauros, your son,

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yearns for knowledge.

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Olaroz, your son yearns for knowledge.

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We know very little about the life of Thucydides, but we know

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quite a bit about his pursuit of

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knowledge through, of course, the history of the Peloponnesian War.

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It has been studied in military schools, it’s been studied in the

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Pentagon, and it’s been read as a classical piece of

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literature for 1000 of

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years. And so now, we’re gonna go back to the book, back

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to the Peloponnesian War, the debate at

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Sparta and the declaration of war in 4:32. We’re going to pick

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up right there with the Corinthian speech

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at Athens.

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Spartans, what makes you somewhat reluctant to listen to us,

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others, if we have ideas to put forward? Is it a great trust and

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confidence which you have in your own constitution and in your own way of life?

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This is a quality which certainly makes you moderate in your judgments. It is also

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perhaps responsible for a kind of ignorance, which you show when you were dealing with

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foreign affairs. Many times before now, we have told you

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what we were likely to suffer from Athens. And on each occasion, instead of taking

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to heart what we were telling you, you chose instead to

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suspect our motives and to consider that we were speaking only about our own grievances.

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The result has been that you did not call together this meeting of our allies

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before the damage was done. You waited until now when we were actually suffering from

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it. And of all these allies, we have perhaps the best right to speak

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now since we have no serious complaints to make. We have to

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complain of Athens for her insolent aggression and of Sparta for her

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neglect of our advice. If there were

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anything doubtful or obscure about this aggression on the whole of Hellas, our task

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would have been to try to put the facts before you and show you something

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you did not know. As it is, long speeches are unnecessary. You can

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see for yourselves how Athens has deprived some states of their

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freedom and is scheming to do the same thing for others, especially

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among our own allies, and that she herself has for a long time been preparing

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for the eventuality of war. Why otherwise would she have forcibly taken

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over from us the control of Corcyra? Why is she besieging

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Potidaea? Potidaea is the best possible base for any campaign in

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Thrash, and Corcya might have been contributed

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might have contributed a very large fleet to the Peloponnesian League.

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And it is you who are responsible for all this. It was you who, in

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the first place, allowed the Athenians to fortify their city and build the long walls

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after the Persian War. Since then and up to the present day, you have been

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you have withheld freedom not only from those who have been enslaved by Athens but

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even from your own allies. When one is deprived of one’s

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liberty, one is right in blaming not so much the man who puts the fetters

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on as the one who had the power to prevent him but did not use

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it, especially when such one rejoices in the glorious reputation

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of having been the liberator of Hellas. Even

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at this stage, it has not been easy to arrange this meeting, and even at

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this meeting, there are no definite proposals. Why are we still considering whether regression has

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taken place instead of how we can resist it? Men who are capable

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of real action first make their plans and then go forward without hesitation

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while their enemies still have not made up their minds. As for the

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Athenians, we know their methods and how they gradually encroach upon their neighbors.

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Now they are proceeding slowly because they think that your insensitiveness to the

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situation enables them to go on their way unnoticed. You will

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find that they will develop their full strength once they realize that you do see

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what is happening and still are doing nothing

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to prevent it. You Spartans are the

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only people in Hellas who wait calmly on events relying for your defense not on

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action, but on making people think you will act. You alone do nothing in

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the early stages to prevent an enemy’s expansion. You wait until your enemy has

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doubled his strength. Certainly, you used to have the reputation of

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being safe, and sure enough, now one wonders whether this reputation was deserved.

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The Persians, as we know ourselves, came from the ends of the earth and got

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as far as the Peloponnese before you were able to put a proper force into

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the field to meet them. The Athenians, unlike the Persians, live close to you, yet

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you still do not appear to notice them. Instead of going out to meet them,

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you prefer to stand still and wait till you are attacked, thus hazarding everything by

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fighting with opponents who have grown far stronger than they were originally.

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In fact, you know that the chief reason for the failure of the Persian invasion

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was the mistaken policy of the Persians themselves, and you know too that there have

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been many occasions when, if we managed to stand up to Athenian aggression, it was

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more because of the Athenians’ mistakes than because of any help we got from you.

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Indeed, we can think of instances already where those who have relied on you and

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remained unprepared have been ruined by the confidence they placed in

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you. We should not like any of you to think we

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are speaking in an unfriendly spirit, We’re only remonstrating with you as is

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natural when one’s friends are making mistakes. Real

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accusations must be kept for one’s enemies who have actually done one

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harm. Then also we think we have as

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much right as anyone else to point out faults in our neighbors, especially when we

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consider the enormous difference between you and the Athenians. To our

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minds, you are quite unaware of this difference. You have never yet tried to

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imagine what sort of people these Athenians are against whom you will have to fight.

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How much indeed, how completely different from you. An Athenian is

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always an innovator, quick to form a resolution and quick at carrying it out.

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You, on the other hand, are good at keeping things as they are. You never

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originate an idea and your action tends to stop short of its

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aim. Then again, Athenian daring will outrun

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its own resources. They will take risks against their better judgment

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and still, in the midst of danger, remain confident. But

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your nature is always to do less than you could have done, to mistrust your

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own judgment, however sound it may be, and to assume that dangers will last

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forever. Think of this too. While you are hanging

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back, they never hesitate. While you stay at home, they are always abroad for they

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think that the farther they go, the more they will get while you think that

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any movement may endanger what you have already. If they win a

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victory, they follow it up at once, and if they suffer a defeat, they scarcely

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fall back at all. As for their bodies, they regard them as expendable

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for their city’s sake as though they were not their own. But each man

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cultivates his own intelligence, again, with a view to doing something

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notable for his city. If they aim at something and do not

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get it, they think they have been deprived of what belonged to them already.

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Whereas if their enterprise is successful, they regard that success as nothing

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00:17:36.509 –> 00:17:40.350
compared to what they will do next. Suppose they fail

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in some undertaking, they may good the loss immediately by setting their hopes in some

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other direction. Of them alone, it may be said that they possess a thing almost

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as soon as they have begun to desire it. So quickly with them does action

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follow upon decision, and so they go on working away in

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hardship and danger all the days of their lives, seldom enjoying their possessions

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because they are always adding to them. Their view of a holiday is to do

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00:18:01.760 –> 00:18:05.460
what needs doing. They refer hardship and activity to peace

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and quiet. In a word, they are by nature

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incapable of either living a quiet life themselves

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or of allowing anyone else to do

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so.

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In our time, when wars begin

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because of seemingly transient reasons, at least to

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our postmodern mind, We fail as common

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folk and even as leaders to understand a concept called

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causaus belli. In the

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run up to the Peloponnesian War, the causaus belli,

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00:19:24.230 –> 00:19:27.670
was as follows according to Thucydides, and I

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quote, both the Athenians and the Polyponnesians already had grounds of

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complaint against each other. The grievance of Corinth was that the Athenians

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were besieging her own colony of Potidaea with Corinthians

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00:19:38.845 –> 00:19:42.605
and other Peloponnesians in the place. Athens, on the other hand, had her

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own grievances against the Peloponnesians. They had supported the revolt of a

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city, which was an alliance with her and which paid her tribute, and they had

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openly joined the Potitanians in fighting against

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her, close quote. Causes

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Belle I even applies now with the Ukraine war with

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Russia and the Israeli Palestinian,

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00:20:05.985 –> 00:20:09.525
Israeli versus Arab, Israeli versus Lebanon, and Iran

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war going on right now in the Middle East.

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The reasons men have for war are many, but they can usually divide it into

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2 categories, stated reasons and hidden

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reasons. Stated reasons are laid out in public

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speeches, proclamations, and even Thucydian history,

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00:20:29.530 –> 00:20:32.910
and they are usually, later on

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00:20:33.544 –> 00:20:36.905
or even before the war, codified into the

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laws of a country. Stated reasons,

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00:20:40.985 –> 00:20:44.445
give generals cover for sending folks

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out to the front rank.

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00:20:48.010 –> 00:20:51.390
Unstated reasons are usually buried in memos.

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00:20:51.850 –> 00:20:55.610
They are privately stated in small speeches in drawing rooms

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00:20:55.610 –> 00:20:59.130
or in chambers or in quiet hallways inside of

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00:20:59.130 –> 00:21:02.535
august buildings, and they are later written about

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00:21:02.695 –> 00:21:06.455
later reported on, particularly in our era where

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everyone must know everything about everyone in

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00:21:09.815 –> 00:21:13.415
unauthorized memoirs published long after the

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00:21:13.415 –> 00:21:16.315
dead are buried and rotting in their graves.

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Human nature motivates the start of many interpersonal

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00:21:22.080 –> 00:21:25.520
conflicts. And, of course, because war is just

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00:21:25.520 –> 00:21:29.360
interpersonal conflict at scale, human nature motivates the starts

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00:21:29.360 –> 00:21:33.035
of wars between nations, and the things that operate in

295
00:21:33.035 –> 00:21:36.495
individuals’ hearts and lives also operate in nation

296
00:21:36.715 –> 00:21:40.555
states’ behaviors as causes, beli, for

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war, greed, envy, jealousy, and

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vanity. These are still the fuel in the

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engine of human nature, and reading the history of the Peloponnesian

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00:21:51.670 –> 00:21:54.890
War from Thucydides, you get all of that.

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00:21:56.390 –> 00:22:00.075
Now, written 400 years before the birth of Christ, there

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00:22:00.075 –> 00:22:03.914
is no Christian overtone to the history of the Peloponnesian War. There’s

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00:22:03.914 –> 00:22:07.135
no Christian overtone to Thucydides’

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00:22:07.434 –> 00:22:09.534
description of the passions of men.

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We would get that later from Paul and James and

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00:22:15.020 –> 00:22:18.480
Hebrews, but it still applies.

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00:22:19.660 –> 00:22:22.800
Why do you have wars and fightings among you?

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00:22:23.820 –> 00:22:27.600
Well, the answer lies deep

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00:22:27.955 –> 00:22:30.615
in the heart of human nature.

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00:23:28.885 –> 00:23:32.565
Back to the book, back to the history of the

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00:23:32.565 –> 00:23:36.245
Peloponnesian War. We’re going to, we’re gonna pick

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up with, with probably the most famous

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00:23:40.565 –> 00:23:44.265
funeral oration in the history

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00:23:44.700 –> 00:23:48.139
of the Western world. And we’re going to read

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00:23:48.139 –> 00:23:51.360
probably, if not all of it, at least most of it.

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00:23:52.380 –> 00:23:55.360
Pericles was the

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00:23:55.980 –> 00:23:59.735
commander of the city of of the forces of the

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00:23:59.735 –> 00:24:02.955
city of Athens, and he was called,

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00:24:03.815 –> 00:24:07.515
he was required to deliver a funeral

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00:24:07.975 –> 00:24:11.335
orient oration. This is something that happened

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00:24:11.335 –> 00:24:15.170
in the classical Greek world,

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00:24:15.550 –> 00:24:18.530
and in the classical world period, in the west.

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00:24:19.630 –> 00:24:23.070
And, it is the most famous funeral oration probably in

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western history. We’ll talk a little bit more about it after we read

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00:24:26.830 –> 00:24:30.655
it. So you’re gonna wanna settle in for

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00:24:30.655 –> 00:24:33.955
this. Pericles’ funeral oration.

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00:24:34.735 –> 00:24:38.255
In the same winter, the Athenians, following their annual

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00:24:38.255 –> 00:24:42.030
custom, gave a public funeral for those who had been the first to die in

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00:24:42.030 –> 00:24:45.870
the war. These funerals are held in the following way. 2 days before

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00:24:45.870 –> 00:24:49.070
the ceremony, the bones of the fallen are brought and put in a tent which

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has been erected, and people make whatever offerings they wish to their own dead. Then

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00:24:52.885 –> 00:24:56.565
there is a funeral procession in which coffins of cypress wood are carried on

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00:24:56.565 –> 00:25:00.325
wagons. There is one coffin for each tribe, which

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00:25:00.325 –> 00:25:03.465
contains the bones of the members of that tribe.

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00:25:04.780 –> 00:25:08.380
One empty beer is decorated and carried in the procession. This is for the

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00:25:08.380 –> 00:25:10.960
missing whose bodies could not be recovered.

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Everyone who wishes to, both citizens and foreigners, can join the procession,

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00:25:16.140 –> 00:25:19.600
and the women who are related to the dead are there to make their laments

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00:25:19.660 –> 00:25:23.445
at the tomb. The bones are laid at the public burial place, which is

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00:25:23.445 –> 00:25:27.284
the most beautiful quarter outside the city walls. Here, the Athenians always bury

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00:25:27.284 –> 00:25:31.044
those who have fallen in war. The only exceptions is those who died

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00:25:31.044 –> 00:25:33.304
at Marathon who, because of their achievement,

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00:25:34.690 –> 00:25:38.290
because their achievement was considered absolutely outstanding, were buried on the

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00:25:38.290 –> 00:25:39.750
battlefield itself.

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When the bones have been laid in the earth, a man chosen by the city

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00:25:44.530 –> 00:25:48.210
for his intellectual gifts and for his general reputation makes an appropriate speech in

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00:25:48.210 –> 00:25:51.765
praise of the dead, and after the speech, all depart. This is the

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00:25:51.765 –> 00:25:55.445
procedure at the at these burials and all through the war. When the time

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00:25:55.445 –> 00:25:58.185
came to do so, the Athenians followed this ancient custom.

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00:25:59.365 –> 00:26:02.265
Now at the burial of those who were the first to fall in the war,

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00:26:02.325 –> 00:26:05.750
Pericles, the son of Xanathippus, was chosen to make the

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00:26:05.750 –> 00:26:09.370
speech. When the moment arrived, he came forward from the tomb.

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And standing on a high platform so that he might be heard by as many

354
00:26:12.950 –> 00:26:16.730
people as possible in the crowd, he spoke as

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00:26:16.789 –> 00:26:19.995
follows. Quote,

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00:26:21.655 –> 00:26:24.455
many of those who have spoken here in the past have praised the institution of

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00:26:24.455 –> 00:26:28.295
this speech at the close of our ceremony. It seemed to them a mark of

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00:26:28.295 –> 00:26:31.575
honor to our soldiers who have fallen in war that a speech should be made

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00:26:31.575 –> 00:26:35.300
over them. I do not agree. These men have shown themselves valiant in

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00:26:35.300 –> 00:26:38.180
action, and it would be enough, I think, for their glories to be proclaimed in

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00:26:38.180 –> 00:26:41.880
action as you have just seen it done at this funeral organized by the state.

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00:26:42.820 –> 00:26:45.860
Our belief in the courage and manliness of so many should not be hazarded on

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00:26:45.860 –> 00:26:49.154
the goodness or badness of one man’s speech. Then it is not easy to speak

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00:26:49.154 –> 00:26:51.955
with a proper sense of balance when a man’s listeners find it difficult to believe

365
00:26:51.955 –> 00:26:55.554
in the truth of what one is saying. The man who knows the facts and

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00:26:55.554 –> 00:26:59.315
loves the dead may well think that an oration tells less than what he knows

367
00:26:59.315 –> 00:27:03.060
and what he would like to hear. Others who do not know so much

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00:27:03.060 –> 00:27:06.740
may feel envy for the dead and think the orator overpraises them when he

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00:27:06.740 –> 00:27:09.240
speaks of exploits that are beyond their own capacities.

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00:27:10.900 –> 00:27:14.085
Praise of other people is tolerable only up to a certain point, The point where

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00:27:14.085 –> 00:27:17.044
one still believes that one could do oneself some of the things one is hearing

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00:27:17.044 –> 00:27:20.725
about. Once you get beyond this point, you will find people becoming jealous and

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00:27:20.725 –> 00:27:24.405
incredulous. However, the fact is that this institution was set up and

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00:27:24.405 –> 00:27:28.020
approved by our forefathers, and it is my duty to follow the

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00:27:28.020 –> 00:27:31.320
tradition and do my best to meet the wishes and the expectations

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00:27:31.620 –> 00:27:33.799
of every one of you.

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00:27:35.539 –> 00:27:39.380
I shall begin by speaking about ancestors since it is only right and proper on

378
00:27:39.380 –> 00:27:43.034
such an occasion to pay them the honor of recalling what they did. In this

379
00:27:43.034 –> 00:27:46.075
land of ours, there have always been the same people living for generation to generation

380
00:27:46.075 –> 00:27:49.595
up till now, and they, by their courage and their virtues, are have

381
00:27:49.595 –> 00:27:53.115
handed it on to us a free country. They

382
00:27:53.115 –> 00:27:56.830
certainly deserve our praise, even more so do our fathers deserve it. For to

383
00:27:56.830 –> 00:28:00.270
the inheritance they have received, they added all the empire we have now, and it

384
00:28:00.270 –> 00:28:02.830
was not without blood and toil that they handed it down to us of the

385
00:28:02.830 –> 00:28:06.590
present generation. And we ourselves, assembled here today, who are mostly in

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00:28:06.590 –> 00:28:09.710
the prime of life, have, in most directions, added to the power of our empire

387
00:28:09.710 –> 00:28:13.285
and have organized our state in such a way that it is perfectly well able

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00:28:13.285 –> 00:28:16.185
to look after itself both in peace and in war.

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00:28:17.845 –> 00:28:20.325
I have no wish to make a long speech on subjects familiar to you all,

390
00:28:20.325 –> 00:28:23.445
so I shall say nothing about the warlike deeds by which we acquired our power,

391
00:28:23.445 –> 00:28:27.160
or the battles in which we or our fathers gallantly resisted our

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00:28:27.160 –> 00:28:31.000
enemies, Greek or foreign. What I want to do, in the first

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00:28:31.000 –> 00:28:34.600
place, to discuss the spirit of which we faced our trials and

394
00:28:34.600 –> 00:28:37.660
also our constitution and the way of life, which has made us great.

395
00:28:38.225 –> 00:28:41.505
After that, I shall speak in praise of the dead, believing that this kind of

396
00:28:41.505 –> 00:28:44.945
speech is not inappropriate to the present occasion, and that this whole

397
00:28:44.945 –> 00:28:48.305
assembly of citizens and foreigners may listen to it with

398
00:28:48.305 –> 00:28:51.920
advantage. Let me say that our system of

399
00:28:51.920 –> 00:28:55.680
government does not copy the institutions of our neighbors. It is more the case of

400
00:28:55.680 –> 00:28:59.040
our being a model to others than of our imitating anyone

401
00:28:59.040 –> 00:29:02.720
else. Our constitution is called a democracy because power is in the

402
00:29:02.720 –> 00:29:06.534
hands, not of a minority, but of the whole people. When

403
00:29:06.534 –> 00:29:10.215
it is a question of settling private disputes, everyone is equal before the

404
00:29:10.215 –> 00:29:13.335
law. When it is a question of putting one person before another in positions of

405
00:29:13.335 –> 00:29:17.015
public responsibility, what counts is not membership of a particular

406
00:29:17.015 –> 00:29:19.995
class, but the actual ability which the man possesses.

407
00:29:21.480 –> 00:29:24.920
No one, so long as he has in has it in him to be of

408
00:29:24.920 –> 00:29:28.760
service to the state, is kept in political obscurity because of poverty. And just

409
00:29:28.760 –> 00:29:31.240
as our political life is free and open, so is our day to day life

410
00:29:31.240 –> 00:29:34.185
and our relations with each other. We do not get into a state with our

411
00:29:34.185 –> 00:29:36.665
door neighbor if he enjoys himself in his own way, nor do we give him

412
00:29:36.665 –> 00:29:39.785
the kind of black looks which, though they do no real harm, still do hurt

413
00:29:39.785 –> 00:29:43.485
people’s feelings. We are free and tolerant in our private lives,

414
00:29:45.785 –> 00:29:49.500
but in public affairs, we keep to the law. This is

415
00:29:49.500 –> 00:29:52.160
because it commands our deep respect.

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00:29:53.820 –> 00:29:57.020
We give our obedience to those whom we put in positions of authority, and we

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00:29:57.020 –> 00:30:00.555
obey the laws themselves, especially those which are for the protection of the oppressed

418
00:30:00.795 –> 00:30:04.155
and those unwritten laws which are which is an acknowledged shame to

419
00:30:04.155 –> 00:30:07.835
break. And here is another point. When our

420
00:30:07.835 –> 00:30:11.195
work is over, we are in position to enjoy all kinds of recreation for our

421
00:30:11.195 –> 00:30:14.950
spirits. There are various kinds of contests and sacrifices regularly

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00:30:14.950 –> 00:30:18.230
throughout the year in our own homes. We find beauty and good taste, which delight

423
00:30:18.230 –> 00:30:22.070
us every day, which drive away our cares, then the greatness of our city brings

424
00:30:22.070 –> 00:30:25.830
in in it about all the good things from all over

425
00:30:25.830 –> 00:30:29.544
the world that flow into us. So that, to us, it seems just as

426
00:30:29.544 –> 00:30:32.445
natural to enjoy foreign goods as our own local products.

427
00:30:33.625 –> 00:30:37.145
Then there is a great difference between us and our opponents and our attitude towards

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00:30:37.145 –> 00:30:40.900
military security. Here are some examples. Our city is

429
00:30:40.900 –> 00:30:44.680
open to the world, and we have no periodical deportations in order to prevent people

430
00:30:44.900 –> 00:30:48.440
observing or finding out secrets which might be of military advantage to the enemy.

431
00:30:48.740 –> 00:30:51.940
This is because we rely not on secret weapons, but on our own real courage

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00:30:51.940 –> 00:30:55.775
and loyalty. There is a difference too in our educational systems.

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00:30:55.835 –> 00:30:59.355
The Spartans, from their earliest boyhood, are submitted to the most

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00:30:59.355 –> 00:31:03.054
laborious training and courage. We pass our lives without all these restrictions

435
00:31:03.595 –> 00:31:07.030
and yet are just as ready to face the same dangers as they are. Here

436
00:31:07.030 –> 00:31:10.790
is a proof of this. When the Spartans invade our land, they do not come

437
00:31:10.790 –> 00:31:14.230
by themselves or bring their allies with them, whereas we, when we launch an attack

438
00:31:14.230 –> 00:31:17.830
abroad, do the job by ourselves. And though fighting on foreign

439
00:31:17.830 –> 00:31:21.030
soil, do not often fail to defeat opponents who are fighting for their own hearths

440
00:31:21.030 –> 00:31:24.625
and homes. As a matter of fact, none of our enemies has ever yet been

441
00:31:24.625 –> 00:31:28.384
confronted with our total strength because we have to divide our attention between our

442
00:31:28.384 –> 00:31:31.424
navy and the many missions on which our troops are sent on land. Yet if

443
00:31:31.424 –> 00:31:34.945
our enemies engage a detachment of our forces and defeat it, they give

444
00:31:34.945 –> 00:31:38.470
themselves credit for having thrown back our entire army. Or if they

445
00:31:38.470 –> 00:31:41.289
lose, they claim that they were beaten by us in full strength.

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00:31:42.390 –> 00:31:45.929
There are certain advantages, I think, to our way of meeting danger voluntarily

447
00:31:46.390 –> 00:31:50.230
with an easy mind instead of with laborious training, with natural rather than

448
00:31:50.230 –> 00:31:54.075
with state induced courage. We do not have to spend our time practicing to meet

449
00:31:54.075 –> 00:31:57.275
sufferings which are still in the future. And when they are actually upon us, we

450
00:31:57.275 –> 00:32:00.575
show ourselves just as brave as those who are always in strict training.

451
00:32:01.275 –> 00:32:04.655
This is one point which I think our city deserves to be admired.

452
00:32:05.195 –> 00:32:09.020
There are also others. Our love of what is beautiful does

453
00:32:09.020 –> 00:32:12.140
not lead to extravagance. Our love of things of the mind does not make us

454
00:32:12.140 –> 00:32:15.980
soft. We regard wealth as something to be properly used rather than as something

455
00:32:15.980 –> 00:32:19.660
to boast about. As for poverty, no one need be ashamed to admit

456
00:32:19.660 –> 00:32:23.455
it. The real shame is in not taking any practical measures to escape

457
00:32:23.755 –> 00:32:27.355
from it. Here, each individual is interested not only in his own

458
00:32:27.355 –> 00:32:30.395
affairs, but in the affairs of the state as well. Even those who are mostly

459
00:32:30.395 –> 00:32:34.155
occupied with their own business are extremely well informed on general politics. This

460
00:32:34.155 –> 00:32:37.860
is a peculiarity of ours. We do not say that a man who takes no

461
00:32:37.860 –> 00:32:40.500
interest in politics is a man who minds his own business. We say that he

462
00:32:40.500 –> 00:32:44.340
has no business here at all. We, Athenians, and our own

463
00:32:44.340 –> 00:32:48.100
persons take our decisions on policy or submit them to proper discussions, for

464
00:32:48.100 –> 00:32:51.480
we do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds.

465
00:32:51.915 –> 00:32:55.615
The worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated,

466
00:32:55.915 –> 00:32:59.435
and this is another point where we differ from other people. We are capable at

467
00:32:59.435 –> 00:33:03.115
the same time of taking risks and estimating them beforehand. Others are

468
00:33:03.115 –> 00:33:06.670
brave out of ignorance, and when they stop to think, they begin to fear.

469
00:33:06.970 –> 00:33:10.810
But the man who can most truly be accounted brave is he who best

470
00:33:10.810 –> 00:33:14.650
knows the meaning of what is sweet in life and of

471
00:33:14.650 –> 00:33:18.445
what is terrible and then goes out undeterred to meet

472
00:33:19.385 –> 00:33:21.805
what is to come.

473
00:34:01.120 –> 00:34:04.179
Before we begin our analysis of Pericles’ funeral

474
00:34:04.559 –> 00:34:08.339
oration, which is the classic example of political oratory

475
00:34:09.199 –> 00:34:12.980
ranking along highly alongside other political oratory

476
00:34:13.440 –> 00:34:16.260
in the long and sordid history of the west,

477
00:34:17.975 –> 00:34:20.795
We need to deliver another oration.

478
00:34:22.775 –> 00:34:26.455
President Lincoln delivered the 272 word Gettysburg address on

479
00:34:26.455 –> 00:34:29.815
November 19, 18 63 on the battlefield near

480
00:34:29.815 –> 00:34:33.520
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. Channeling Pericles,

481
00:34:34.219 –> 00:34:37.820
he said this, 4 score 7 years ago, our

482
00:34:37.820 –> 00:34:41.659
fathers brought forth of this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and

483
00:34:41.659 –> 00:34:44.800
dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

484
00:34:46.395 –> 00:34:50.074
Now we are engaged in a great civil war testing whether that nation or any

485
00:34:50.074 –> 00:34:53.375
nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure.

486
00:34:54.395 –> 00:34:58.075
We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to

487
00:34:58.075 –> 00:35:01.360
dedicate a portion of that field as the final resting place for those who here

488
00:35:01.360 –> 00:35:04.900
gave their lives that a nation might live.

489
00:35:05.760 –> 00:35:09.520
It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But in

490
00:35:09.520 –> 00:35:13.119
a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow

491
00:35:13.119 –> 00:35:16.895
this ground. The brave men living in dead who struggled here

492
00:35:16.895 –> 00:35:20.035
have consecrated far above our poor power to add or detract.

493
00:35:20.735 –> 00:35:23.855
The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can

494
00:35:23.855 –> 00:35:27.500
never forget what they did here. It is for us,

495
00:35:27.500 –> 00:35:31.260
the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they

496
00:35:31.260 –> 00:35:34.619
who fought here have thus so far so nobly

497
00:35:34.619 –> 00:35:38.380
advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the

498
00:35:38.380 –> 00:35:42.185
great task remaining before us, That from these honored dead, we take

499
00:35:42.185 –> 00:35:45.945
increased devotion to that cause for which they here gave the

500
00:35:45.945 –> 00:35:49.465
last full measure of devotion. That we here highly

501
00:35:49.465 –> 00:35:53.310
resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain. That

502
00:35:53.310 –> 00:35:56.750
this nation under god shall have a new birth of freedom, and that

503
00:35:56.750 –> 00:36:00.210
government of the people, by the people,

504
00:36:00.670 –> 00:36:03.650
for the people shall not perish

505
00:36:04.270 –> 00:36:05.250
from the earth.

506
00:36:08.425 –> 00:36:11.645
The Gettysburg Address is the American

507
00:36:11.945 –> 00:36:15.705
example of funeral oration, short and to the

508
00:36:15.705 –> 00:36:19.165
point. We didn’t even get through a third of Pericles’

509
00:36:19.385 –> 00:36:23.119
funeral oration, created for a different time of

510
00:36:23.119 –> 00:36:25.539
potentially longer attention spans.

511
00:36:27.520 –> 00:36:30.900
Richard Ned Lebo, an American political scientist, characterized

512
00:36:31.039 –> 00:36:34.339
Thucydides as, quote, the last of the tragedians,

513
00:36:35.135 –> 00:36:38.895
stating that, and I quote, Thucydides drew heavily on epic poetry and tragedy

514
00:36:38.895 –> 00:36:42.575
to construct his history, which not surprisingly is also constructed as a

515
00:36:42.575 –> 00:36:46.335
narrative. Pericles’ funeral oration stands

516
00:36:46.335 –> 00:36:49.474
as an example of such epic poetry.

517
00:36:51.920 –> 00:36:55.680
There is a monumental challenge, as Lincoln and

518
00:36:55.680 –> 00:36:59.119
Pericles would have recognized, to speaking over the

519
00:36:59.119 –> 00:37:02.500
dead. How do you actually define

520
00:37:03.645 –> 00:37:07.085
what people have done when they have given the last full measure that they can

521
00:37:07.085 –> 00:37:10.685
give in this world, which is their lives? How do you

522
00:37:10.685 –> 00:37:14.385
define such a sacrifice? How do you place it in the pantheon

523
00:37:14.685 –> 00:37:18.089
of sacrifice on offer? How do you

524
00:37:18.089 –> 00:37:21.609
inspire those who are living, and how do you get them to think

525
00:37:21.609 –> 00:37:24.029
differently about those who are dead?

526
00:37:25.930 –> 00:37:29.769
The challenge of speaking over the dead and managing not to make it maudlin

527
00:37:29.769 –> 00:37:33.205
and overly sentimental or crass and overly

528
00:37:34.545 –> 00:37:36.805
hard was equally matched by Abraham Lincoln.

529
00:37:38.305 –> 00:37:42.145
Lincoln and Pericles both stand as examples of long

530
00:37:42.145 –> 00:37:45.605
form funeral oration, and there have been none better,

531
00:37:46.190 –> 00:37:47.410
in the time since.

532
00:37:50.269 –> 00:37:53.730
Maybe that’s because we’ve lost the ability,

533
00:37:54.750 –> 00:37:58.210
whether it be Christian or pagan, we’ve lost the ability

534
00:37:59.335 –> 00:38:03.015
to place the appropriate context of our lives within a

535
00:38:03.015 –> 00:38:06.155
much larger hierarchical order.

536
00:38:07.255 –> 00:38:10.235
And as leaders, we have a responsibility to realize

537
00:38:11.070 –> 00:38:14.910
not that our egos are fragile, Pericles

538
00:38:14.910 –> 00:38:18.430
would have acknowledged that, but we have the responsibility to

539
00:38:18.430 –> 00:38:22.270
acknowledge that our lives, while seemingly precious and

540
00:38:22.270 –> 00:38:26.005
overall meaningful to us in the long pantheon

541
00:38:26.145 –> 00:38:28.805
in HIF history, might indeed

542
00:38:29.825 –> 00:38:33.125
be meaningless unless

543
00:38:35.105 –> 00:38:38.580
we can serve to give them meaning

544
00:38:39.920 –> 00:38:43.599
by actually sacrificing for the things that

545
00:38:43.599 –> 00:38:47.040
matter. This is our current

546
00:38:47.040 –> 00:38:50.720
struggle with meaning in the west, and we’ve covered that on this

547
00:38:50.720 –> 00:38:54.445
podcast before. We are currently in a meaning crisis.

548
00:38:55.065 –> 00:38:58.585
I think we’re about to turn the corner of it. I hope we’re about to

549
00:38:58.585 –> 00:39:01.885
turn the corner of it. And Pericles’ funeral

550
00:39:02.025 –> 00:39:05.405
oration and Abraham Lincoln’s oration

551
00:39:05.865 –> 00:39:09.700
at Gettysburg give us examples of what others may

552
00:39:09.700 –> 00:39:13.539
say about us or examples of what others may not say

553
00:39:13.539 –> 00:39:16.839
about us if we don’t get our act together

554
00:39:18.180 –> 00:39:21.175
before there’s no more time left

555
00:39:22.435 –> 00:39:25.875
to even remotely think about getting it

556
00:39:25.875 –> 00:39:26.375
together.

557
00:39:53.244 –> 00:39:57.005
So what are we to take from the history

558
00:39:57.005 –> 00:40:00.545
of the Peloponnesian war? And by the way, this is a robust

559
00:40:00.925 –> 00:40:04.240
history. It doesn’t just include information about

560
00:40:04.780 –> 00:40:08.619
or the repetition of, Pericles’ funeral oration, but it

561
00:40:08.619 –> 00:40:12.380
walks through the entire Peloponnesian War. The operations

562
00:40:12.380 –> 00:40:16.145
in Sicily and Greece, the end of Platea, the

563
00:40:16.145 –> 00:40:19.685
Brasilius in Thrace. Brasilius captures Amphipolis.

564
00:40:20.785 –> 00:40:24.465
What else? Let’s see. Negotiations between Athens and Argos, the

565
00:40:24.465 –> 00:40:27.525
debate at Syracuse, what happened when the Athenians

566
00:40:28.305 –> 00:40:32.060
arrived in Sicily, the debate at Camarina. I mean, this

567
00:40:32.060 –> 00:40:35.600
is a this is a comprehensive,

568
00:40:37.500 –> 00:40:41.180
history, and I would encourage you to go out and pick it up if

569
00:40:41.180 –> 00:40:44.960
you are a person who wants to understand how warfare in the west

570
00:40:45.180 –> 00:40:48.214
works. By the way, you will see a lot of,

571
00:40:48.915 –> 00:40:52.535
parallels to World War 2, World War 1,

572
00:40:52.674 –> 00:40:56.515
the Vietnam War, the Gulf War, the Iraq War, the

573
00:40:56.515 –> 00:40:59.954
2nd Gulf War, and the current wars that are going on as I

574
00:40:59.954 –> 00:41:03.520
mentioned before in the Ukraine, in the Donbas,

575
00:41:04.140 –> 00:41:07.680
and Israel. You will see parallels

576
00:41:07.900 –> 00:41:11.200
because war is the father of us all.

577
00:41:14.685 –> 00:41:18.045
On this podcast, we try to get to solutions to problems this

578
00:41:18.045 –> 00:41:21.645
year, and the problem that we’re trying to solve for by

579
00:41:21.645 –> 00:41:24.945
reading the history of the Peloponnesian War is not one of war.

580
00:41:26.125 –> 00:41:29.825
We can’t actually solve that problem. Wars will outlive leadership

581
00:41:30.260 –> 00:41:33.800
as long as human nature is such as it is.

582
00:41:34.740 –> 00:41:37.859
The problem we’re looking to solve by reading the history of the Peloponnesian War, at

583
00:41:37.859 –> 00:41:41.059
least the problem that leaders should be seeking to solve by reading the history of

584
00:41:41.059 –> 00:41:44.605
the Peloponnesian War by by trudging through Pericles’

585
00:41:44.825 –> 00:41:48.585
funeral oration such as it were. The lesson that they are trying to

586
00:41:48.585 –> 00:41:51.085
pull from the text is this.

587
00:41:52.105 –> 00:41:55.945
History, philosophy, and theology used to matter more as tools

588
00:41:55.945 –> 00:41:59.760
for explaining the vagaries of our human nature under fire than

589
00:41:59.760 –> 00:42:03.360
psychology ever did. Matter of fact, I would

590
00:42:03.360 –> 00:42:06.980
argue that for all of the insights that psychologists have generated

591
00:42:07.360 –> 00:42:10.880
over the course of the last 100 years, they still don’t beat the

592
00:42:10.880 –> 00:42:14.020
insights you can get about human nature from history.

593
00:42:15.745 –> 00:42:19.585
We like to say that we’re smarter because we can actually

594
00:42:19.585 –> 00:42:23.425
go inside of people’s motivations, but I’m not quite sure that’s

595
00:42:23.425 –> 00:42:27.119
true. In our current bureaucratic era in the bureaucratic era

596
00:42:27.119 –> 00:42:30.819
in the west, where we are ruled over by scientific managerial apparatchiks,

597
00:42:31.440 –> 00:42:35.119
we have successfully separated people who think about

598
00:42:35.119 –> 00:42:38.420
warfare, even if they have metals

599
00:42:38.799 –> 00:42:42.575
on their breast, from the people who actually

600
00:42:42.575 –> 00:42:45.875
do the fighting. Think about it.

601
00:42:46.255 –> 00:42:50.095
How many philosophers do you know who go to war or who are even in

602
00:42:50.095 –> 00:42:53.315
blue collar roles such as carpentry or plumbing or electricity?

603
00:42:54.250 –> 00:42:57.950
And how many carpenters or electricians or plumbers do you know

604
00:42:58.170 –> 00:43:02.010
who read deep philosophy? I would be willing

605
00:43:02.010 –> 00:43:05.450
to bet that it goes more one way than the

606
00:43:05.450 –> 00:43:09.225
other. And this is a real problem because the

607
00:43:09.225 –> 00:43:12.744
managerial class who leads the action oriented doers or at least gives them

608
00:43:12.744 –> 00:43:16.425
orders becomes puffed up by its own ego and its hubris and

609
00:43:16.425 –> 00:43:20.265
arrogance, which can allow it to leave its ivory tower

610
00:43:20.265 –> 00:43:23.760
of scientific managerialism descend deep into the

611
00:43:23.760 –> 00:43:26.020
trenches, and get its hands dirty.

612
00:43:27.840 –> 00:43:31.360
This is why we like leaders who come from the

613
00:43:31.360 –> 00:43:34.820
dirt, which is something that the ivory tower managerial

614
00:43:35.040 –> 00:43:38.815
class cannot wrap their own

615
00:43:38.815 –> 00:43:40.595
hubris around.

616
00:43:42.975 –> 00:43:46.655
So how do we heal these challenges? How do

617
00:43:46.655 –> 00:43:50.095
we heal these rifts between people or should we even

618
00:43:50.095 –> 00:43:53.800
bother? Or will there always be rifts between the elites and

619
00:43:53.800 –> 00:43:57.640
the people who do the work? Folks wiser than me

620
00:43:57.640 –> 00:44:01.480
would, of course, say, yes. There will always be these rifts, and you

621
00:44:01.480 –> 00:44:04.860
can’t get rid of them, Haysan, but I live in vainglorious

622
00:44:05.160 –> 00:44:08.984
hope. I believe that the way to heal this divide,

623
00:44:08.984 –> 00:44:12.345
at least the way for leaders to think about and maybe act on healing this

624
00:44:12.345 –> 00:44:15.724
divide, is not by leveraging mass communication or mass media.

625
00:44:16.265 –> 00:44:19.680
The way to heal this divide is not through the, dispute

626
00:44:19.920 –> 00:44:23.760
the the the the the dissension or the dissemination, that’s

627
00:44:23.760 –> 00:44:27.280
the word I’m looking for, of mass academic training or even

628
00:44:27.280 –> 00:44:31.060
mass conscription into a military that is as bureaucratically

629
00:44:31.440 –> 00:44:35.174
bad as the nation states it seeks to

630
00:44:35.174 –> 00:44:39.015
protect. I believe that the way to heal

631
00:44:39.015 –> 00:44:42.714
the divide between the ego driven, scientific,

632
00:44:43.174 –> 00:44:46.770
managerial, apparatchic and the doer on the

633
00:44:46.770 –> 00:44:50.450
ground with their hands. The way to heal this divide is

634
00:44:50.450 –> 00:44:54.050
for families to abandon cities, move back to the

635
00:44:54.050 –> 00:44:57.670
land, and for fathers and mothers alike

636
00:44:58.404 –> 00:45:01.545
alongside their children or their children alongside them,

637
00:45:02.724 –> 00:45:06.484
start learning how to work with their hands again. Start getting back into

638
00:45:06.484 –> 00:45:10.005
the dirt. Teach the children

639
00:45:10.005 –> 00:45:13.619
this. Teach them well. Teach them how

640
00:45:14.080 –> 00:45:17.760
to raise the chickens and the ducks and the horses. Teach them how to

641
00:45:17.760 –> 00:45:21.600
hammer the nails and saw the wood. The leaders

642
00:45:21.600 –> 00:45:25.200
that will come from those places will be able to

643
00:45:25.200 –> 00:45:28.765
deliver funeral oratory that will be

644
00:45:28.765 –> 00:45:32.305
stirring and uplifting and won’t sound

645
00:45:32.365 –> 00:45:36.205
hollow or pointless because it will actually have

646
00:45:36.205 –> 00:45:39.505
hard experience embedded underneath

647
00:45:39.565 –> 00:45:40.065
it.

648
00:45:43.884 –> 00:45:44.624
And well,

649
00:45:48.844 –> 00:45:50.144
that’s it for me.