Leadership Lessons From The Great Books – Dune by Frank Herbert w/Daniel A. Bentle & Ryan J. Stout

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Hello. My name is Jesan Sorrells and this is the

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leadership lessons from the great books podcast, episode number

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123. And this episode

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today, we will cover a massive book

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in the science fiction genre. It’s a

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book that is so expansive, story that is so expansive that for some

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people, including the 2 people that we have here today to talk about

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the book, it sets the standard for world building and

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for understanding politics, economics, history, ecology, and even

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that hoary old subject that keeps rearing its ugly head in

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even our postmodern time, religion.

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Now this book was not on my radar or even our radar initially

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as a book to cover on the podcast. However, when I talked

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with one of our cohosts today as a result of a random networking

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outreach conversation last year, his enthusiasm, his

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overwhelming enthusiasm for this book today and his knowledge of the underlying

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applications to leadership convinced me that it was worth

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consideration for all of you, and I

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was not disappointed. And in the interest of full

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disclosure, I was exposed to this book for the first time at 9 years old

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and was not necessarily impressed by the content, and I moved on to

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Stephen King, Dean Koontz, and Peter Straub.

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And arguably, this was probably because the version that I was

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reading and that I was initially exposed to was printed in

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tiny 9 point font type, which, of course,

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makes it intimidating for any 9 year old.

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Today, we will be covering a book that is the basis for 2 recent

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films released in 2021 and 2023, respectively,

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and a film version that would rather be forgotten by

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most casual readers of the book or even hardcore fans

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released in 1984 and written and directed

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by, David Lynch.

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Today, we will be pulling leadership lessons

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from Dune by Frank Herbert.

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Leaders, there are deserts everywhere from the

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deepest inner mind all the way to the outer

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limits, and the most arid desert in need of water

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is probably the one right between your ears.

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Now today, we will be joined in our conversation by the man who pitched Frank

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Herbert’s epic novel to me, the past VP of sales at

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Into Growth, a global leader in executive search and leadership development, and

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the current chief philanthropy officer at the Food Bank of

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Alaska, direct from deep in the wilds of the largest state in the

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union. And, yes, I am in Texas, and even we must bow to Alaska,

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Dan Dan I’m sorry. Daniel, Bentholt.

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And of course, we will also be joined today by a longtime friend of the

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show coming back from episode number 110, where we covered

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night by Eli Weisel with Libby Unger,

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Ryan j stout. Hello, and welcome to the

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podcast, Dan, and welcome back, Ryan. How y’all doing today? Fantastic.

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Thank you. And yourself? I’m spectacular. I’m I’m always

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good. How are you doing, Dan? Incredible. It’s, it’s good to

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reconnect. It’s hard to been hard hard to believe, Jason. It was a year ago.

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I know. I know. We were just saying that before we hit, before we hit

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record. So I remember glowing after that, discussion on Dune for,

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like, the next 24 hours. So I’m someone who

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who who could who could see it. So Well, it’s

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it’s it definitely is. You definitely and that’s, I mean,

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what I said there in the opening, you definitely convinced me that it was worth

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my time to consider this book and to kinda overcome

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my my 9 year old angst about it that I’m carrying around in my

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forties. And, you know, it it

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turned out that, and we’ll talk about the structure of the book and the content

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and all that kind of stuff coming up here. I only have one major complaint

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about book, honestly, and then that’s it. Like

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everything else, I was I was fine with it. And then I went and I

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looked a little bit at Frank Herbert’s life. We’ll talk about literary life of Frank

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Herbert here in a little bit, as we often do on the podcast.

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We have some grounding for the author as well. But

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in reading the book, I was fascinated by,

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just how just the depth of everything that was built into it,

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exactly what you exactly what you what you talked about when when you and I

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had the, the initial conversation. So yeah. It’s dense. It’s

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dense. But in your defense, Jassonne, I think I would still be

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intimidated with 9.5.

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Yeah. Yeah. I would open it and be like, oh, man. Yeah. We’re

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we’re down here. Yeah. And, Ryan, I you know, it’s been a

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while. Had you had you even read Dune before? I we have never

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even talked about it. I got Dune. Someone gave it to me when I was

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out in Portland, Oregon. I was I was,

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just working on a coffee shop. And this guy came in, and he’s

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carrying a copy of Dune. And I said, I never got around to that.

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He said, this is the best book I’ve ever read. This is my 3rd time

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reading it. In fact, I have, like, 3 copies. You can

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have this copy. And

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so it just so do you know when you see,

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like, astrophysicist just show, like, a

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taught sheet to explain

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the fabric of space time. And they push down on it, and

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that’s what this book reminds me of. It’s, like, pushing down on the

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center, and the gravity gravity of it is so much

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that you can’t not put a

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reader feel like your world is also being pulled in because it

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is so relatable, because of the archetypal characters.

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And so it automatically almost forces the

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reader to be immersed into it. And it’s written in a way,

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and and the language that’s used is accessible enough

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and with the dictionary and a glossary and all that. So, I mean, it’s a

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commitment. You know? Yeah.

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But, well worth it. The well and I

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I liked the I’ll be honest. I liked the structure of

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it. Like, once I sort of gotten past my own, like, NUE or

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angst or whatever about it, I like the structure of

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the book. But now the version that I have, is structured in a particular

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way. It is the, let’s see.

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I just have to get credit where credit is due.

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It is the ace

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Penguin Random House version, of this book

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and the the paperback version. And

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the way they put this together

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was in August of 2005. So I guess this came out, you know, in anticipation.

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Well, not necessarily anticipation of the movie, but rereleased for another generation.

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The way it was put together, there’s appendies that are in the back of it.

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So there’s, like, 20 pages of appendices, in

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addition to the core the core elements of the book. There’s

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terminology. There’s cartographic notes. There’s a map, and then there’s

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an afterward by Frank Herbert’s son, Brian Herbert, which I have not had the chance

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to read yet. But that’s the basic structure. And then it sort of

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opens up with, you know, a quote, from the

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manual of Muadhib, by the princess Irulan.

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And and so it’s set up in a way, and you’ll you’ll need to know

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this if you’re gonna read the book as a leader. It’s set up as in

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a way to to Ryan’s point to sort of draw you

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in to a world immediately. And

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it’s not weirdly enough, it’s not Star Wars. Like, that’s what I

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expected. Like, it’s not a Star Wars kind of epic. It’s something even a Star

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Trek kind of epic. It’s something totally it’s something totally different.

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So, I like the structure of the book. I like the way things are put

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together. I like the way that, that everything was collected together

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sort of to kind of make it easily accessible, at least in my version,

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which again was more accessible than the one that that I initially ran into all

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those all those years ago. Alright. I know this isn’t the subject

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here, Jason, but you both talked about how accessible it is.

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Mhmm. And those who are familiar with Frank

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Herbert’s, books in the series, what I’m told

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is that they become increasingly less accessible as you go

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on. Yeah. Especially for the average reader.

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I stopped after book 3. It’s pretty

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weird. Okay. Is is it almost like reading a

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I don’t know, like, a thesaurus or something? Does it go like, is, you know,

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is it like reading more of a, like,

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is it written prose wise?

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I what what, what what I what

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I gather, makes it far less accessible

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is even something I think the the most recent director,

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I always butcher his his, surname, but Denis

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Villeneuve, who, who directed

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the the last two films that Jason referenced had had just

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talked about how esoteric they become after book 3. And

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just kind of just how out there the

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concepts are and just, you know, what kinda happens to some of the characters

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and time jump. It gets very sci

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fi. So I think that’s They just wanna go on.

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Yeah. Yeah. So Well, let’s, Topic

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for another time. Just a topic for another time. Let’s, let’s open up with Dune.

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And, as usual with books that are a little

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bit more recent, I’m going to, pick a particular quote. I’m going to focus on

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that. And then we’re going to jump into, the literary life of

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Frank Herbert. We’re going to talk a little bit with, with both Dan and Ryan

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about sort of the meaning of this book, and

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what we have to look forward to here. So Dune opens with

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book 1, which is called, you know, Dune. And

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we open up with 2 characters,

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actually, 3 characters, Jessica, reverend

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mother, and Paul Atreides.

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Now, the relationship between

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Paul and his mother, Jessica, is critical

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to the moving forward of the plot of Dune,

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as well as the nuances of the relationship between,

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Paul’s father and the duke, Duke Leto. And

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so we can we’re gonna talk about that and address that, but I’d like

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to focus on this just at the beginning. The reverend mother,

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Gaius Helen Mohiam, sat in a tapestry chair watching mother and

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son approach. Windows on each side of her overlooks a curving southern bend of the

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river and the green farmlands of the Atreides family holding, but the reverend mother ignored

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the view. She was feeling her age this morning more than a little petulant. She

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blamed it on space travel and association with that abominable spacing

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guilt and its secretive ways. But here was a mission

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that required personal attention from a with the site.

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Even the potashaw emperor’s truth sayer couldn’t evade that responsibility when

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the duty call came. Damn that Jessica, the Reverend mother thought

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if only she’d born us a girl as she was ordered to do.

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Jessica stopped 3 paces from the chair, dropped a small curtsy, a gentle flick of

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the left hand along the line of her skirt. Paul gave the short bow his

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dancing master had taught the one used quote, when it doubt of another station,

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unquote. The nuances of Paul’s greeting are not lost on the Reverend

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mother. She said he’s a cautious one, Jessica. Jessica’s hand

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went to Paul’s shoulder tightened there for a heartbeat, fear pulse through her palm. As

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she had herself under control. Thus, he has been taught your reverence.

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What does she fear? Paul wondered the old woman study Paul in

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one Gestaltin flicker. I love that term, by the way, face oval

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like Jessica’s, but strong bones, hair, the Duke’s black

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black with brow line of the maternal grandfather who cannot be named

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and that thin disdainful nose shape of directly staring green

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eyes like the old duke, the paternal grandfather who is dead.

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Now there was a man who appreciated the power of bravura even in death, the

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Reverend mother thought. And so this is the setup

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that brings us into this idea of

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Paul being tested, right,

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of Paul being trained. Well, not really being

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trained. It comes at the end of his training, right, the beginning of his testing,

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time. Right? And this sets up the

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some of the other challenges that are going

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to rise through the book, particularly challenges around

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spoiler alert, the the death of the duke,

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the, the challenges of of Jessica and Paul,

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going to a, going to a new world, which is not like the world

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that they just left, and ultimately the challenges

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of being human. And there’s a there’s a touch

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of I don’t know if it’s commentary or thought process in this

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book, about evolution, which I wanna ask Dan about.

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But that’s how we open Duke. We’re literally tossed into

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the fray, right away. And this kind

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of goes along with, I think, how Frank Herbert

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was was as a human being. Right? How he structured

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his own life. And so, Franklin Patrick

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Herbert junior was born October 8, 1920 and died February

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11, 1986. He was an American science fiction author who

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wrote short stories and worked as a newspaper journalist, a photographer, a book

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reviewer, an ecological consultant, and a lecturer.

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He was fascinated by books as a young man and could read much of the

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newspaper before the age of 5, had an excellent memory, and learned quickly.

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Probably a little bit didactic as well as being a

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little bit, having a little bit photographic memory.

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Due to an impoverished home environment largely due to the Great Depression, Herbert left home

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in 1938 to live with an aunt and uncle in Salem, Oregon. During

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1942, after the US entry into World War 2, he served in the US Navy

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Seabees for 6 months as a photographer, but suffered a head injury and was given

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a medical discharge. He never graduated from college. According

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to his son, Brian, he wanted to study only what interested him. And so did

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not complete the required curriculum. Now we’re on a, we’re on a

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month of, we’re on a month of science fiction books. And that’s why we’re talking

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about dune. And we talked about Ray Bradbury,

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Fahrenheit 4 51, Ray Bradbury also during the depression did not

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go to college. And part of the reason why Fahrenheit 4

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51 is the way that it is. We talked about this in that episode, episode

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number 122. He,

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he said, Bradbury did, and I quote, it was a depression. Everyone

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was poor. No one could afford to go to college. We all just went to

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the library. And, and, Frank Herbert,

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definitely did that as well. Herbert’s first science fiction

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story looking for something was published in the April 1952 issue of startling

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stories. And he began researching Dune in 1959,

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and it was published in 1965, which of course spearheaded the

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Dune franchise. By the way, Dune is the best selling science fiction

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novel of all time, and the Dune saga set in the distant future and taking

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place over a millennia explores complex themes, such as the long term survival

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of the human species, human evolution, planetary science and ecology, and

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the intersection of religion, politics, economics, facts, and power in a

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future where humanity has long since developed interstellar travel and

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colonized many thousands of worlds.

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He later told many years after Dune was published,

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and this is of particular interest, I think, to

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Ryan. He later told Willis e McNelly that the

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novel originated when he was assigned to write a magazine article about sand dunes in

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the Oregon dunes near Florence, Oregon. But another possible

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source of inspiration for doing was Herbert’s reported experiences with

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psilocybin mushrooms. According to the Michael

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myecologist, Paul Stamets account, which describes Herbert’s

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hobby of cultivating chanterellis, which are those like

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weird little mushrooms that have like the ruffled edges. And they they

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make you trip. They send you all kinds of different places.

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That’s a little bit about the literary life of Frank Herbert and a little bit

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about Dune. Dan brought us Dune, so I’d like to give him

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first crack at this. Talk to us about the importance of Dune,

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on you and your life and your creativity and your leadership.

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And then, Ryan, I want you to talk with us a little bit about the

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challenges of reading it. What does that look like? So,

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Dan, lay it on us. Ghassan, thank you. Yeah. It

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was, it was fun to think back on this. I think I I

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think I read it when I was, just about 14 years old for the first

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I’ve read it a few times. It was, probably

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freshman or sophomore in college, found it on a list

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of, like, 28, 40 books or something like that could choose

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from. And, it was a tome. So, yes, it

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was it was intimidating, as you

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said. But I like the cover. It looked interesting. And

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I’ve always loved the smell of old books. And it was an old, you know,

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old books and coffee, 2 favorite smells. In fact, this book talks about

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coffee and the important coffee service, you know, in a relationship too, which is

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also super cool. But it was just dense. I mean, it

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was layers, as you said, commentary on

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politics, religion, ecology.

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It planted the seed of an interest in just overall environmental environmental

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sustainability for me, which I spent a portion of my career within.

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But initially, it was just the the adventure and the world building

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that kinda drew me in. I mean, I I was 14 years old and could,

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you know, immediately see the clear influence that it had had on pop

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culture and the ways that it had been influenced by other other works.

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But, yeah, it was certainly, probably the second or

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third time when I became of reading it, when I

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came to a more maybe conscious appreciation of the importance of

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some leadership lessons that were kind of woven through.

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You know, I think I remember reading somewhere recently that I think it was Tim

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Ferris or or someone who was quoted in saying that anything,

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critical you need to know about leadership, you can learn by reading

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DIM or or something to that effect, which, I think is

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probably a bit of a stretch. But it is it

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is, certainly interesting to have seen that. I’ve I’ve seen it on

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different lists from, you know, I think, Elon Musk to

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others who’ve who’ve referenced it. But there

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there were certainly I do remember, there being specific points

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when reading into some of the dialogue, especially in the

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relationship between, the protagonist

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Paul and his father, the duke. Just some of the the ways in which he

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talked about how his father led and what he was learning from him, in his

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position of leadership, that certainly got my wheels turning at a very

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young age. You know, I think there’s even a quote

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where, Duke Leto talks about, you know, what

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it means to be a leader. I think he says, you know, what is important

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for a leader is that which makes him a leader, the needs of his people.

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Which, you know, 14 year old kid kinda reading that and understand thinking through all

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of what what are the what are the factors

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and context that requires a leader to emerge in

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in how they lead, which is important. But, you know, even things like,

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give as few orders as possible, I think what it says. Right?

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Once you’ve given orders on a subject, you will always be required to give orders

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on that subject or something to not affect, you know, which just speaks to the

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importance of keeping it simple for those involved in a mission. Right? Not

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micromanaging even at at the furthest end of that and

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ensuring that sort of the key message, the

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mission is paramount in people’s minds and they never forget it, and

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trust them to get the job done. How are them to do so? Which certainly

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wasn’t thinking about it at that depth. Again, the first time I read it, but

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certainly, certainly had an impact upon me. In fact,

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I’m in a new office here, and getting set up, and I have very little

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on the walls. Mhmm. But thing I actually did put up on the wall right

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behind me is a gift from my baby sister who I just saw in Portland,

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Oregon last weekend, Brian. And it is the litany

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against fear, which I have, framed up there. And that is the only thing

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aside from, the whiteboard on the other side of the room that is on

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the wall so far. So That’s awesome. Just for you, sir. Just

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for you. I can I’ll grab your

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address from HeySign. I’ll mail you something to put on the wall. Thank you.

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I appreciate that. I’m a minimalist by nature, although my wife

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would probably, not agree with that statement. Well, you know,

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there’s always there’s always 2 partners in or not 2

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partners. There’s 2 kinds of people in a relationship. There’s there’s a person

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who’s the minimalist, and then there’s the person who’s maybe a little bit left or

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right depending upon your perspective of the minimalist who’s always considered by that

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minimalist to be a maximalist. Also depends on the

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context you’re talking about. Right? In what area of life? That that’s correct. That’s

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right. That’s right. You said a bunch of different

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stuff there, Dan, and I took a bunch of notes. I wanna jump into a

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few things there. But first, Ryan, I

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know, you know, you told us the story about how you, you know, you’ve kind

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of structured not how you how you ran into Dune and how you

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got your copy and how you thought about it.

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You know, for me, you know, reading it and

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I’ve already mentioned this already. Reading it at 45,

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you know, significantly different obviously than trying to touch on it at 9 or even

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to Dan’s point 14. Right? Or as a freshman in, as a freshman in

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college. You’re reading with all the kinds of experiences that

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you’ve had, you know, underneath your belt. That’s what you’re bringing to the game.

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What did you find in, in Dune?

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It is. Age is huge. Experience is huge.

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As I’ve gotten older, instead of getting bobbed out of details,

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it’s more like the abstractions of things.

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And, you know, the the the challenge I think the biggest challenge is what, you

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know, Dan and maybe he signed. I don’t think yours is intimidated

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by it. But 900 pages is like a lot. It’s pretty it’s a

365
00:22:50,640 –> 00:22:54,420
and and going into it knowing that that it’s going to be really dense material.

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Mhmm. That the number of characters,

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the names of the characters, how to keep the characters

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in their houses, which houses represent what.

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And so this all starts to compile without

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some, like, note taking or references to other

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material in a short period of time, it just becomes way too quickly overwhelming.

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The the the I

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think the challenge, there there was, like, parts of

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or or either of you familiar with the show House, MB?

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With with House. The show House with with, House. Yeah. House.

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00:23:37,795 –> 00:23:40,934
Yeah. K. And so a lot of that

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00:23:41,554 –> 00:23:45,075
show is a couple seasons go on. It’s built

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upon, like, layering stratagems.

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In order to, like, have people reveal

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something. And it seems like there’s a lot of that

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dialogue. So they’re going to think this if I do this. So I’m going to

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do this, so they’ll think this. Therefore, it will, you know, it will

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00:24:03,390 –> 00:24:07,205
it will, you know, mend or take care

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of or address this particular issue. So there’s a lot of, like,

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just abstract thinking that goes on within

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within the book and how, and, and how the

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Duke kind of restructuring,

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his his, responsibilities. And,

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like, there was there was one I think a challenge too is, like, the

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the environment in a way. Maybe it’s because the dialogue, maybe

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it’s because people when they, thousands of years in the

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future evolve, don’t have as, it didn’t

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seem to be it’s like there was a a less

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focus on, say, like, it’d be emotional responses.

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So it was not a lot of, like, reactions. And I guess I could also

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say to, like, the the Duke’s

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leadership skill of of kind of remaining calm.

398
00:25:00,885 –> 00:25:04,645
Mhmm. Yeah. I agree with that. Yeah. That that

399
00:25:04,725 –> 00:25:07,845
that’s a good point. Yeah. I didn’t I would not have known how to articulate

400
00:25:07,845 –> 00:25:11,524
that, but I did pick up on that, as well. And I

401
00:25:11,524 –> 00:25:15,360
think I think that goes partially

402
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to, obviously, Robert is as a writer or was as a writer.

403
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Those were the things that he focused on. Right? Because he’s gonna write, you know,

404
00:25:22,559 –> 00:25:26,320
what he’s gonna write, right, from from that particular perspective because he’s creating this

405
00:25:26,320 –> 00:25:30,145
thing. But Frank Herbert also, weirdly enough

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I mean, you know, reading a little bit more into him,

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he was he seemed to be a person who

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was very and and and, you know, I’m sure people, you know, have

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all kinds of different, obviously, not not knowledge, but people have all

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different kinds of experiences during the course of their life. Right? He seemed to be

411
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a person who was very intentional,

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about some of the things that he did. And I don’t know if that was

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because of the head injury that discharged him in World War 2 from the Seavies.

414
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I don’t know if that’s just because of the path that he went down in

415
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the particular way that he was raised, but he seems to have or seemed

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to have in the course of his life a lot of intentionality behind

417
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who he was as a person. And then the creative

418
00:26:13,800 –> 00:26:16,300
part of him that came out in science fiction

419
00:26:17,800 –> 00:26:21,595
seemed to be unlocked by other things that

420
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he was doing, like the psilocybin mushrooms and, you know, the the

421
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the the sort of the that sort of messing around with that a little bit.

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Now again, you know, I’ve known plenty of people who are

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more more, maybe more conservative in their temperament. I don’t

424
00:26:36,090 –> 00:26:38,909
mean politically conservative. Just conservative in their temperament

425
00:26:40,409 –> 00:26:44,169
that do need that other thing to be unlocked inside of them so

426
00:26:44,169 –> 00:26:47,309
they can access a whole bunch of stuff. But once they go behind that door,

427
00:26:47,735 –> 00:26:51,095
they kinda get spooked sometimes to your point about emotion,

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00:26:51,095 –> 00:26:54,855
Ryan. They kinda get spooked by the strength of whatever that thing is back there,

429
00:26:54,855 –> 00:26:58,375
and they slam that door shut real quick. And I I looked at

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Dune as his

431
00:27:01,940 –> 00:27:05,779
attempt to put that into its appropriate bucket, right, wherever it came

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from, but to put that thing in its appropriate bucket and channel it in a

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particular in a particular direction. And it’s interesting, Dan. We were

434
00:27:12,419 –> 00:27:16,155
talking before we hit record that, and you mentioned this,

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00:27:16,215 –> 00:27:20,055
that subsequent books become more esoteric and

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00:27:20,055 –> 00:27:23,735
become more it’s like he got hate to

437
00:27:23,735 –> 00:27:26,795
say it this way, but it’s like Frank Herbert got high on his own supply,

438
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you know, and sort of went down that rabbit hole a little bit deeper.

439
00:27:32,620 –> 00:27:35,759
Maybe so. Maybe so. It’s certainly,

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it, what I’ve heard, and I think the the level

441
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of or at least on kind of the overall

442
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accessibility, the first three books are sort of that trilogy,

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are the only that have been adapted so far into anything outside of the

444
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novels. Right? And I think that that kinda speaks to kinda

445
00:27:59,789 –> 00:28:03,630
what’s gonna sell. But also, I think it’s,

446
00:28:03,870 –> 00:28:07,570
and we can make sure get into this a little bit as well, but

447
00:28:07,630 –> 00:28:11,445
the first two books, really seem to be the full

448
00:28:11,445 –> 00:28:14,985
arc of the primary protagonist and the message

449
00:28:15,445 –> 00:28:19,145
around, the purported message of Frank Herbert’s

450
00:28:19,205 –> 00:28:22,665
around the danger of following overly charismatic leaders.

451
00:28:23,810 –> 00:28:27,250
And that being, you know, really sort of the rise and fall of an

452
00:28:27,250 –> 00:28:30,770
empire and that sort of contained peace and

453
00:28:30,770 –> 00:28:32,230
then the rest of it.

454
00:28:34,530 –> 00:28:37,030
Yeah, there’s certainly an audience for that, but maybe

455
00:28:38,905 –> 00:28:42,665
a little bit different one than the general populace, had an appetite

456
00:28:42,665 –> 00:28:46,425
for. Right. How much of the book do you think is null and void if

457
00:28:46,425 –> 00:28:49,325
the Harkonnage just, like, left really good machinery?

458
00:28:52,580 –> 00:28:55,300
And then he just carried on as usual. It’d be like a show it would

459
00:28:55,300 –> 00:28:58,020
be a it would be a it would be a short story of, like, 12

460
00:28:58,020 –> 00:29:01,000
pages. They left us this wonderful machinery.

461
00:29:01,620 –> 00:29:04,680
We we harvested the spice without a hitch.

462
00:29:05,415 –> 00:29:07,835
We’re not. So

463
00:29:09,495 –> 00:29:12,855
it’s like be kind, rewind. That’s maybe that’s where that came

464
00:29:12,855 –> 00:29:16,295
from. Yeah. They all just the Harker really just needed to open up a blockbuster

465
00:29:16,295 –> 00:29:19,915
franchise. That’s really all they needed to do. It’s just, like, back in the day.

466
00:29:22,270 –> 00:29:25,710
Well, I’m sure you’re, I’m sure you’re both, you know, read it read into this.

467
00:29:25,710 –> 00:29:29,070
I don’t know that I fully appreciated, you know, this and and reading through the

468
00:29:29,070 –> 00:29:32,770
machinations, of the houses when I first read it at 14.

469
00:29:33,150 –> 00:29:36,975
Mhmm. Of course, that was their the Harkonnen’s first step. Their

470
00:29:37,135 –> 00:29:40,755
intentional first step in laying the trap. Mhmm. But,

471
00:29:41,054 –> 00:29:44,255
yeah, if they hadn’t if they would have all just been kind to one another

472
00:29:44,255 –> 00:29:48,095
and and, and there was no animosity, I don’t think we’d

473
00:29:48,095 –> 00:29:51,940
have any great stories, You know? Well, and we’re gonna we’re gonna

474
00:29:51,940 –> 00:29:55,460
talk about this in the next section of kinda wanna hold my hold my powder,

475
00:29:55,460 –> 00:29:58,980
give my powder dry a little bit here. And I will say

476
00:29:58,980 –> 00:30:02,440
that we talk about the houses. I immediately

477
00:30:02,660 –> 00:30:05,815
thought of and and, of course, it was the environment too.

478
00:30:06,435 –> 00:30:09,955
I immediately thought of Lawrence of Arabia. Matter of fact, I I actually wanted to

479
00:30:09,955 –> 00:30:13,795
go get my copy of TE Lawrence’s 7 pillars of wisdom and kind of

480
00:30:13,795 –> 00:30:17,495
read it alongside Dune just to see,

481
00:30:17,955 –> 00:30:21,780
you know, was Herbert was Herbert reading TE Lawrence’s

482
00:30:21,840 –> 00:30:25,300
mail. As they say these days, was he collection receipts on TE Lawrence?

483
00:30:25,680 –> 00:30:29,360
Because the, and we’ve covered several pillars, seven pillars of wisdom on this

484
00:30:29,360 –> 00:30:32,660
podcast. There are remarkable parallels

485
00:30:33,405 –> 00:30:37,165
between the observations that TE Lawrence has, particularly in the first

486
00:30:37,165 –> 00:30:40,685
couple of, I’d say the first 3, 4, 3, 2,

487
00:30:40,685 –> 00:30:44,445
200 pages of 7 pillars of wisdom that

488
00:30:44,445 –> 00:30:48,125
are reflected in some of the behavior that the houses get up

489
00:30:48,125 –> 00:30:51,870
to, and that Leto and Atreides, get

490
00:30:51,870 –> 00:30:55,630
into, and that the, you know, are

491
00:30:55,630 –> 00:30:59,230
involved in. There’s there’s some there’s some interesting parallels there. And I know that

492
00:30:59,230 –> 00:31:02,830
Herbert was widely read, so it wouldn’t surprise me if that was an

493
00:31:02,830 –> 00:31:06,424
influence there. And that’s why I sort of I I came up with and we’ll

494
00:31:06,424 –> 00:31:09,485
talk about this into my second second turn here. But

495
00:31:09,945 –> 00:31:13,784
this t e Lawrence idea of and I loved it the

496
00:31:13,784 –> 00:31:17,304
way he put it in, 7 pillars of wisdom, never outstay a

497
00:31:17,304 –> 00:31:20,880
climax, which is a hugely

498
00:31:21,020 –> 00:31:24,780
important lesson for leaders, and one

499
00:31:24,780 –> 00:31:28,000
that I think Lawrence out of out of

500
00:31:29,260 –> 00:31:33,040
many, many leaders, I would say maybe George Washington was maybe the other one,

501
00:31:33,295 –> 00:31:36,895
kind of actually understood this and knew exactly when to

502
00:31:36,895 –> 00:31:40,415
leave. And most leaders have no clue when to

503
00:31:40,415 –> 00:31:43,695
leave. That’s true. And then they wind up like Leto, and they fall into it.

504
00:31:43,695 –> 00:31:47,429
They fall into the trap of their enemies. So, so,

505
00:31:47,429 –> 00:31:51,270
like, how scarce? Well, you know, I mean, yeah,

506
00:31:51,270 –> 00:31:54,950
making yourself scarce. I mean, well well, the and this gets into

507
00:31:54,950 –> 00:31:58,470
succession and a whole bunch of yeah. Let me let me ask you this. Follow-up

508
00:31:58,470 –> 00:32:01,225
question for this, and then we’ll we’ll move on. Follow-up question on this. So you

509
00:32:01,225 –> 00:32:03,885
mentioned Tim Ferris and Elon Musk reading this book.

510
00:32:04,985 –> 00:32:07,945
Obviously, for our listeners, if it’s good enough for Elon Musk, it’s good enough for

511
00:32:07,945 –> 00:32:10,905
you. So go go grab a copy of Dune. Even if you don’t read the

512
00:32:10,905 –> 00:32:14,429
rest of them, you don’t have to read children of Dune or Dune

513
00:32:14,429 –> 00:32:17,710
on Mars or whatever. The other one starts to don’t worry about it. Just get

514
00:32:17,710 –> 00:32:21,070
the first letter. This

515
00:32:21,070 –> 00:32:24,750
idea of not

516
00:32:24,750 –> 00:32:28,049
micromanaging, building trust, give us few orders as possible,

517
00:32:29,914 –> 00:32:33,534
This idea of emergent leadership, right, that we see in Dune.

518
00:32:39,274 –> 00:32:42,955
If I am a charismatic leader, what’s the

519
00:32:42,955 –> 00:32:46,430
warning here for me in this

520
00:32:46,430 –> 00:32:49,950
book? Yeah. If you are that

521
00:32:49,950 –> 00:32:53,630
charismatic leader. Right. You

522
00:32:53,630 –> 00:32:56,530
know, let me touch on that really quickly, but I also wanna

523
00:32:57,575 –> 00:33:01,015
maybe just rewind before I lose this thought, on the T. E. Lawrence front, if

524
00:33:01,015 –> 00:33:04,695
I may. Just Mhmm. Yeah. There’s a really, really great and I’ll just

525
00:33:04,695 –> 00:33:08,235
put a plug for this because I received this as a Christmas gift this last,

526
00:33:09,655 –> 00:33:13,420
this last Christmas was a coffee table book. See the

527
00:33:13,420 –> 00:33:17,180
coffee just coming back to coffee. Mhmm. Oh, yeah. Bring it back. And

528
00:33:17,180 –> 00:33:20,700
and, and and it even touches on it in this this coffee table book on

529
00:33:20,700 –> 00:33:24,160
sort of the worlds of Dune, the cultures, and

530
00:33:24,380 –> 00:33:27,900
the, places and historical figures that

531
00:33:27,900 –> 00:33:31,705
inspired the book, by Tom Huddleston. And it

532
00:33:31,705 –> 00:33:35,305
is just a phenomenal kind of just fun kind of read to look at

533
00:33:35,305 –> 00:33:38,605
and touches heavily upon, the 7 pillars of wisdom,

534
00:33:39,065 –> 00:33:42,745
and T. E. Lawrence as well. But back to your question on sort of

535
00:33:42,745 –> 00:33:46,390
what’s what’s the warning, if you are a charismatic

536
00:33:46,530 –> 00:33:49,490
leader here. I think there’s certainly a,

537
00:33:51,970 –> 00:33:55,350
a warning against, ambition,

538
00:33:56,690 –> 00:33:57,910
for the sake of ambition.

539
00:34:00,495 –> 00:34:02,995
Just the message, the age old message that,

540
00:34:04,095 –> 00:34:07,475
power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Mhmm.

541
00:34:07,855 –> 00:34:11,389
You know, the certainly a

542
00:34:11,690 –> 00:34:15,369
pretty, pretty clear message of the book is one that I

543
00:34:15,369 –> 00:34:19,210
didn’t necessarily get as a 14 year old, which was, you know,

544
00:34:19,210 –> 00:34:22,650
Paul, you know, he he

545
00:34:22,650 –> 00:34:26,324
ultimately succumbs and becomes the dictator that he overthrows. Mhmm.

546
00:34:34,005 –> 00:34:37,844
You know, ego affects all of us. Pride affects all

547
00:34:37,844 –> 00:34:40,790
of us. And it clouds our judgment.

548
00:34:41,570 –> 00:34:45,270
And, and there’s that’s why you just can’t

549
00:34:46,050 –> 00:34:49,810
you cannot, speak enough about or or

550
00:34:49,810 –> 00:34:52,390
just examine self examine enough

551
00:34:53,804 –> 00:34:57,165
on just ensuring you’re maintaining a healthy dose of

552
00:34:57,165 –> 00:35:00,845
humility, and, relying on

553
00:35:00,845 –> 00:35:04,305
others around you and setting up the right

554
00:35:04,365 –> 00:35:07,770
systems and structures, from a, a

555
00:35:07,770 –> 00:35:11,470
leadership perspective to, govern effectively.

556
00:35:12,090 –> 00:35:15,850
What is the what is the Bene Gesserit ax axiom in there around, you know,

557
00:35:15,850 –> 00:35:19,450
religion and politics in the same cart and, of course, we don’t do that. But

558
00:35:19,450 –> 00:35:21,550
just sort of some of those concepts introduced,

559
00:35:23,585 –> 00:35:27,224
or reintroduced or really emphasized for me at a young age Yeah.

560
00:35:27,505 –> 00:35:31,025
Were certainly very important. So, you know, revenge and,

561
00:35:31,345 –> 00:35:34,944
manipulation do play a heavy part in the book even on the on

562
00:35:34,944 –> 00:35:38,750
behalf of the protagonist. And that I think just

563
00:35:38,750 –> 00:35:42,510
also speaks to, you know, I’ll take a

564
00:35:42,510 –> 00:35:46,270
maybe more spiritual or religious stance on that that, you know, we live in a

565
00:35:46,270 –> 00:35:49,650
fallen world, and that’s part of our baser nature as humans.

566
00:35:50,350 –> 00:35:53,945
Revenge is a natural inclination. We wanna see others

567
00:35:53,945 –> 00:35:57,705
experience the pain that they’ve caused us and which is a major driver for the

568
00:35:57,705 –> 00:36:01,485
protagonist, Paul, in the story and much more and highlighted

569
00:36:01,625 –> 00:36:05,245
much more directly in the 2 recent films that came out.

570
00:36:06,390 –> 00:36:10,230
And you see even in the choice, you know, not to get too much into

571
00:36:10,230 –> 00:36:13,750
that, but even some of them from a pacing and

572
00:36:13,750 –> 00:36:17,190
sort of length of story standpoint, some of the edits that had to be made

573
00:36:17,190 –> 00:36:20,885
and sort of decisions or actions that some characters took that

574
00:36:20,885 –> 00:36:23,785
were taken by others in the book. There’s to highlight

575
00:36:24,405 –> 00:36:28,165
Paul’s key motivation, being revenge in that and what it

576
00:36:28,165 –> 00:36:31,705
ultimately did to him. Yeah. And, of course, we

577
00:36:32,130 –> 00:36:35,809
we see that message reflected in other things that, Dune had some

578
00:36:35,809 –> 00:36:39,650
influence on, including, Star Wars and the teachings of Yoda.

579
00:36:39,650 –> 00:36:43,430
Right? Leads down a dark path.

580
00:36:43,890 –> 00:36:46,470
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.

581
00:36:47,735 –> 00:36:51,495
Well, back to the book, back to Dune. I’m gonna

582
00:36:51,495 –> 00:36:52,955
pick up a little bit here.

583
00:36:54,855 –> 00:36:58,155
So Paul and Jessica and the Duke

584
00:36:59,940 –> 00:37:03,540
leave their green planet. Right? And they go

585
00:37:03,540 –> 00:37:06,980
to a desert, a desert

586
00:37:06,980 –> 00:37:10,680
with worms and spice and betrayal,

587
00:37:11,859 –> 00:37:15,545
a desert with a desert

588
00:37:15,545 –> 00:37:18,045
with corrupt commerce. Right?

589
00:37:19,385 –> 00:37:23,164
And, not even theocratically

590
00:37:23,305 –> 00:37:26,125
driven. That’s not even a monarkly driven people.

591
00:37:28,105 –> 00:37:31,810
A desert with rebels and people who have

592
00:37:31,810 –> 00:37:35,650
no business being in a desert but are. Right? And this is,

593
00:37:35,650 –> 00:37:37,730
by the way, one of the other things about Dune that I wanna put up

594
00:37:37,730 –> 00:37:41,170
just right up front. There’s no there’s

595
00:37:41,170 –> 00:37:44,994
no there’s very little appeal to to speak of Star Wars for just

596
00:37:44,994 –> 00:37:48,215
a minute or even Star Trek the next generation of which I’m a gigantic fan.

597
00:37:48,915 –> 00:37:52,595
There’s very little appeal to this idea of multiple races

598
00:37:52,595 –> 00:37:56,375
across multiple worlds. We’re dealing with human beings,

599
00:37:56,700 –> 00:37:59,660
and, you know, it’s it’s human beings that look like the kind of human beings

600
00:37:59,660 –> 00:38:03,500
that you can see on the video of this podcast today. Right? You

601
00:38:03,500 –> 00:38:06,940
know, 2 eyes, a nose, a mouth. We’re not dealing

602
00:38:06,940 –> 00:38:10,285
with, you know, Klingons or

603
00:38:10,425 –> 00:38:13,785
Jedi. We’re not dealing with anything that’s fantastical in terms

604
00:38:13,785 –> 00:38:17,385
of the actual human experience inside of Doom. We’re

605
00:38:17,385 –> 00:38:20,845
dealing with people who have, yes, to a certain degree evolved,

606
00:38:21,065 –> 00:38:23,165
but they would still be recognizably human

607
00:38:25,290 –> 00:38:28,730
from our perspective if they came, quote, unquote, back to our

608
00:38:28,730 –> 00:38:31,870
time. And Herbert did that on purpose.

609
00:38:32,890 –> 00:38:36,730
And so we pick up here, in the middle of book on or

610
00:38:36,730 –> 00:38:40,545
towards actually closer towards the end. And, it starts with

611
00:38:40,545 –> 00:38:43,984
this. My

612
00:38:43,984 –> 00:38:47,505
father, the Paducia emperor took me by the hand one day, and I sensed in

613
00:38:47,505 –> 00:38:50,625
the ways my mother had taught me that he was disturbed. He let me down

614
00:38:50,625 –> 00:38:54,165
the hall of portraits to the ego likeness of the Duke Leto Atreides.

615
00:38:54,945 –> 00:38:58,540
I marked the strong resemblance between them, my father and this man in the portrait,

616
00:38:58,600 –> 00:39:01,960
both with thin elegant faces and sharp features dominated by cold

617
00:39:01,960 –> 00:39:05,720
eyes. Princess daughter, my father said, I would that you’d

618
00:39:05,720 –> 00:39:08,540
been older when it came time for this man to choose a woman.

619
00:39:09,455 –> 00:39:12,915
My father was 71 at the time and looking no older than the man portrait,

620
00:39:13,135 –> 00:39:16,895
and I was but 14. Yet I remember deducing in that instant that my father

621
00:39:16,895 –> 00:39:20,675
secretly wished the duke had been his son and disliked the political necessities

622
00:39:20,975 –> 00:39:24,340
that made them enemies. From in my father’s

623
00:39:24,340 –> 00:39:27,940
house by the princess Irulan. And so that’s kind of a

624
00:39:27,940 –> 00:39:31,619
quote that opens up the chapters, right,

625
00:39:32,020 –> 00:39:35,800
in my version of, of Dune. Your version, your

626
00:39:36,020 –> 00:39:39,395
mileage may vary. Then we jump into the

627
00:39:39,395 –> 00:39:43,234
text. His first encounter with the people that he’d been ordered to betray left doctor

628
00:39:43,234 –> 00:39:47,075
Kines shaken. He potted himself on being a scientist to whom legends

629
00:39:47,075 –> 00:39:50,455
were merely interesting clues pointing towards cultural roots.

630
00:39:50,730 –> 00:39:54,250
Yet the boy fitted the ancient prophecy. So precisely he had that

631
00:39:54,250 –> 00:39:57,310
questing eyes and the air of reserve candor.

632
00:39:58,250 –> 00:40:01,290
Of course, the prophecy left certain latitude as to whether the mother goddess would bring

633
00:40:01,290 –> 00:40:05,125
the Messiah with her or produce him on the scene. Still, there was this odd

634
00:40:05,125 –> 00:40:08,884
correspondence between prediction and persons. They met

635
00:40:08,884 –> 00:40:12,025
in midmorning outside the Eric and landing fields,

636
00:40:12,565 –> 00:40:15,704
administration building and unmarked, orinthopter

637
00:40:16,484 –> 00:40:20,210
squatting nearby, humming softly on standby like a synomulant

638
00:40:20,510 –> 00:40:24,110
insect. And Atreides guards stood beside it with Baird’s sword and the

639
00:40:24,110 –> 00:40:27,950
faint air distortion of a shield around him. Kind sneered at

640
00:40:27,950 –> 00:40:31,010
the shield pattern thinking Eraqus has a surprise for them there.

641
00:40:31,685 –> 00:40:35,365
The planetologist raised a hand, signaled for his Freeman guard to fall back. He

642
00:40:35,365 –> 00:40:38,725
strode on ahead towards the building’s entrance, the dark hole of the plastic coated rock.

643
00:40:38,725 –> 00:40:42,405
So exposed that the monolithic building he thought so much less suitable than a

644
00:40:42,405 –> 00:40:45,970
cave. Movement within the entrance caught his attention. He

645
00:40:45,970 –> 00:40:49,750
stopped taking the moment to adjust his robe and the set of his stillsuit

646
00:40:49,809 –> 00:40:53,650
at the left shoulder. Now pause. You got fantastical elements in here, but

647
00:40:53,650 –> 00:40:57,329
it’s with technology. That’s also the genius of of what Herbert’s doing

648
00:40:57,329 –> 00:41:01,065
here. Back to the book. The entrance doors swung

649
00:41:01,065 –> 00:41:04,745
wide. Atreides guards emerged swiftly, all of them heavily armed, slow pellet stunners,

650
00:41:04,745 –> 00:41:08,505
sword, and shields. Behind them came a tall man, hawk face, dark of skin and

651
00:41:08,505 –> 00:41:11,625
hair. You are a jubicle cloak with a tradies crest on the breast and wore

652
00:41:11,625 –> 00:41:15,420
it in a way that betrayed his unfamiliarity with the garment.

653
00:41:15,480 –> 00:41:18,200
It clung to the legs of his still suit. On one side, it lacked the

654
00:41:18,200 –> 00:41:22,040
free swinging, striding rhythm beside the man walked

655
00:41:22,040 –> 00:41:24,840
a youth with the same dark hair, but rounder in the face that you’ve seen

656
00:41:24,840 –> 00:41:28,555
small for the 15 years kinds knew him to have, but the young body carried

657
00:41:28,555 –> 00:41:32,235
a sense of command, a poised assurance as though he saw a new things all

658
00:41:32,235 –> 00:41:35,915
around him that were not visible to others. And he wore the same style

659
00:41:35,915 –> 00:41:39,355
cloak as his father yet with a casual ease, it made one think the boy

660
00:41:39,355 –> 00:41:42,920
had always worn such clothing. The Mahdi will be

661
00:41:42,920 –> 00:41:45,819
aware of things others cannot see with the prophecy.

662
00:41:46,680 –> 00:41:50,200
Hain shook his head telling himself they’re just people. With the

663
00:41:50,200 –> 00:41:53,420
2, garb like them for the desert came a man recognized,

664
00:41:53,799 –> 00:41:57,605
Gurney Halleck. Hines took a deep breath. Still, his resentment against Halleck who

665
00:41:57,605 –> 00:42:01,305
had briefed him on how to behave with the duke and the ducal heir.

666
00:42:01,925 –> 00:42:05,365
You may call the duke my lord or sire. Noble born is also correct, but

667
00:42:05,365 –> 00:42:09,119
usually reserved for more formal occasions. The sun may be addressed as young master

668
00:42:09,119 –> 00:42:12,900
or my lord. The duke is a man of much leniency, but looks little familiarity.

669
00:42:14,560 –> 00:42:18,160
And Kain’s thought as he watched the group approach, they’ll learn soon enough whose master

670
00:42:18,160 –> 00:42:21,599
on Eraqus. Order me questioned half the night by that Mentat, will

671
00:42:21,599 –> 00:42:25,255
they? Expect me to guide them to an inspection of spice mining, do they?

672
00:42:26,275 –> 00:42:29,875
The import of Howitt’s questions had not escaped Kynes. They wanted the imperial

673
00:42:29,875 –> 00:42:33,315
bases, and it was obvious they learned to do the bases from Idaho. I will

674
00:42:33,315 –> 00:42:36,535
have Stilgar send Idaho’s head to this duke,

675
00:42:36,950 –> 00:42:38,970
Kynes told himself.

676
00:42:41,430 –> 00:42:45,270
The reason I read that is because

677
00:42:45,270 –> 00:42:48,970
Kynes is the planetologist, and he’s our entry point

678
00:42:49,030 –> 00:42:52,155
into Arrakis. He’s our entry point into this

679
00:42:52,454 –> 00:42:55,895
seemingly dead planet that has all kinds of other things going on in

680
00:42:55,895 –> 00:42:59,655
it. It is a planet that is a desert. It’s a planet that is being

681
00:42:59,655 –> 00:43:03,410
mined for its spice. I

682
00:43:03,410 –> 00:43:06,690
got to admit, I’m still not really clear on what spice does. I just know

683
00:43:06,690 –> 00:43:10,130
it’s valuable. And maybe it’s in future

684
00:43:10,130 –> 00:43:13,970
books. I I I have some idea maybe that it

685
00:43:13,970 –> 00:43:17,730
has some hallucinogenic properties, but I’m also it also seems to be like

686
00:43:17,730 –> 00:43:21,244
an actual food. I’m not really clear. Point is,

687
00:43:21,865 –> 00:43:25,645
it’s a resource like oil or water

688
00:43:25,944 –> 00:43:29,385
or sand. It’s a resource that

689
00:43:29,385 –> 00:43:32,765
is that is prevalent, on Arrakis,

690
00:43:33,010 –> 00:43:36,310
and it is also a resource that is apparently worth fighting

691
00:43:36,610 –> 00:43:40,070
and dying over. The planetologist

692
00:43:40,370 –> 00:43:43,510
kind who doesn’t make it to the end, spoiler alert,

693
00:43:46,985 –> 00:43:50,605
Kind of understands and is beginning to understand

694
00:43:51,225 –> 00:43:54,905
that the point of planet, Arrakis, is

695
00:43:54,905 –> 00:43:58,585
not the spice. The point is freeing people,

696
00:43:58,585 –> 00:44:01,910
particularly the freemen to interestingly enough, read,

697
00:44:02,869 –> 00:44:06,329
freeing them from the desert, turning the desert into

698
00:44:06,630 –> 00:44:10,470
a garden. This goes

699
00:44:10,470 –> 00:44:14,150
to the never ending challenge, which I think Herbert was very focused on

700
00:44:14,150 –> 00:44:17,895
of building a new world, even after humans long since left planet Earth and

701
00:44:17,895 –> 00:44:21,495
moved on to different planets and galaxies. Herbert’s

702
00:44:21,495 –> 00:44:25,335
vision of human troubles, desires, lusts, wars, and killings that seem to

703
00:44:25,335 –> 00:44:29,099
haunt human beings’ best efforts at building a new world mirror the

704
00:44:29,099 –> 00:44:32,700
insights of t e Lawrence, that he had as a result of

705
00:44:32,700 –> 00:44:36,160
experiencing the aftermath of the Arab revolt during World War 1.

706
00:44:37,579 –> 00:44:40,859
One of the leaders, one of the ideas that a leader must know is when

707
00:44:40,859 –> 00:44:44,615
to leave the stage, as I already mentioned. And the biggest curse of the characters

708
00:44:44,675 –> 00:44:48,435
in Dune is that they all aren’t in tune with the zeitgeist of when to

709
00:44:48,435 –> 00:44:52,115
leave the stage due to the depth and breadth of

710
00:44:52,115 –> 00:44:55,910
their egos. We already mentioned

711
00:44:55,970 –> 00:44:59,510
revenge, Dan. So I’m gonna switch this to in here for this

712
00:44:59,730 –> 00:45:03,490
opening part of this segment. Why is it important to leave on a high note,

713
00:45:03,490 –> 00:45:07,329
Ryan? You’re you’re a performer. You you matter of fact, years ago, on another

714
00:45:07,329 –> 00:45:10,230
project that we were involved in because we’ve been friends for a long, long time,

715
00:45:10,445 –> 00:45:14,205
You told me, always leave on a high note. Always leave them

716
00:45:14,205 –> 00:45:17,485
always leave them, you know, leave them clapping. And and Jerry Seinfeld also mentioned this

717
00:45:17,485 –> 00:45:21,085
to to George years ago on that show. And George, you

718
00:45:21,085 –> 00:45:23,585
know, was twirling and left on a high note. Right?

719
00:45:24,830 –> 00:45:28,590
And I’ve sort of tried to do that in my career. We’ve on a

720
00:45:28,590 –> 00:45:31,650
high note, but it’s sometimes hard to figure out where that high note is. So

721
00:45:31,950 –> 00:45:35,710
let’s open it up with with you. Why is it important to leave on a

722
00:45:35,710 –> 00:45:39,195
high note? So I so you’ve met cousin

723
00:45:39,195 –> 00:45:43,035
Johnny, and I’ve talked to cousin Johnny. Yeah. I’ve met cousin Johnny anytime.

724
00:45:43,035 –> 00:45:46,795
So You should you should tell Dan who cousin Johnny is. Because Dan Cousin Johnny

725
00:45:46,795 –> 00:45:47,455
is a

726
00:45:50,550 –> 00:45:53,850
good time fellow who’s a frequenter

727
00:45:53,990 –> 00:45:57,510
of the bars and establishments and has worked in

728
00:45:57,510 –> 00:46:01,110
restaurants for a long time, likes to gamble, travels, you know,

729
00:46:01,110 –> 00:46:04,915
kinda gets out there. And, but he always has, like, a

730
00:46:04,915 –> 00:46:07,575
short wired, or or like a hardwired,

731
00:46:10,435 –> 00:46:14,275
like, access to the shortcuts in his

732
00:46:14,275 –> 00:46:18,029
brain, you know, where he can put things in very take

733
00:46:18,029 –> 00:46:21,329
complex things and put it into simple terms, but he will

734
00:46:21,549 –> 00:46:25,089
openly admit that he can barely read. Mhmm. So it’s like

735
00:46:25,630 –> 00:46:29,365
his ability to process information is is really high. And so he’s

736
00:46:29,365 –> 00:46:32,485
on the phone with someone, and I was like, who was that? And he told

737
00:46:32,485 –> 00:46:36,165
me he’s some girl. And I was like, that was what was that conversation

738
00:46:36,165 –> 00:46:39,925
about? He’s just like, always keep them wanting more. And

739
00:46:39,925 –> 00:46:43,710
I was like and we’re sitting at a bar at a TGI Fridays. This is,

740
00:46:43,710 –> 00:46:47,150
you know, this whole scenario and it’s like, but if you just take

741
00:46:47,150 –> 00:46:50,910
that line, that and it

742
00:46:50,910 –> 00:46:54,750
has great value. And that that’s just

743
00:46:54,750 –> 00:46:57,150
first thing I thought of when it was, like, leading on a high note. It

744
00:46:57,150 –> 00:47:00,865
was like, you’re galvanizing the troops. Mhmm. You

745
00:47:00,865 –> 00:47:04,705
know, you want to, like, you want the reaction

746
00:47:04,705 –> 00:47:08,244
of that and be, like, yes. I’m fully invested

747
00:47:08,385 –> 00:47:11,970
and whatever we’re doing is the only thing that is the

748
00:47:12,130 –> 00:47:15,970
one thing we gotta do. And, you know,

749
00:47:15,970 –> 00:47:19,349
I think that’s, that would be a primary, you know.

750
00:47:20,930 –> 00:47:24,630
Goal of the leaders to have all the people you’re leading

751
00:47:25,010 –> 00:47:28,645
get along as some sort of familial

752
00:47:28,945 –> 00:47:32,545
unit because there’s strength in community. And when everyone’s on the same page

753
00:47:32,545 –> 00:47:35,905
working towards a common goal, it almost doesn’t feel like

754
00:47:35,905 –> 00:47:39,665
work. Right. So, you know, leaving on a high note is

755
00:47:39,665 –> 00:47:43,170
is kind of like the the the the path that the the red

756
00:47:43,170 –> 00:47:45,270
carpet into into that.

757
00:47:47,010 –> 00:47:50,850
Actualizing of the yeah. Yeah. Actualizing of the, yeah, of the leaving on a high

758
00:47:50,850 –> 00:47:53,830
note. Dan, what do we do with those people, though, like Kines

759
00:47:55,235 –> 00:47:59,075
or Harkins, as Ryan already mentioned. What do we do with those people

760
00:47:59,075 –> 00:48:02,835
that just don’t wanna go along or they or they have

761
00:48:02,835 –> 00:48:06,675
just, you know and I always ask this almost on every podcast.

762
00:48:06,675 –> 00:48:09,895
Right? Because leaders invariably are going to run into conflict.

763
00:48:10,730 –> 00:48:14,410
Invariably. Matter of fact, I will tell leaders in the course of my leadership development

764
00:48:14,410 –> 00:48:17,770
work or training work or coaching and consulting work that I’ve done in this space

765
00:48:17,770 –> 00:48:21,450
for a long time now. I will tell them if you are not

766
00:48:21,450 –> 00:48:25,244
experiencing conflict, you’re probably not leading. Yeah.

767
00:48:25,464 –> 00:48:29,224
You’re probably doing it badly. Or because people aren’t bringing you things that

768
00:48:29,224 –> 00:48:32,744
you need to hear or your ego is so

769
00:48:32,744 –> 00:48:36,285
massive that you can’t brook even positive conflict.

770
00:48:36,840 –> 00:48:40,440
And so everybody is doing another variation of this. Everybody’s walking

771
00:48:40,440 –> 00:48:43,340
around on you walking around you on eggshells,

772
00:48:44,440 –> 00:48:47,800
and you’re actually in the process of losing your team. You’re lose you won’t be

773
00:48:47,800 –> 00:48:50,565
able to leave on a high note. You’re you’re gonna get carded out the back.

774
00:48:50,645 –> 00:48:53,625
You know? So what do leaders do?

775
00:48:55,125 –> 00:48:58,805
How do leaders respond to the kinds of the world? You know?

776
00:48:59,204 –> 00:49:02,025
How do they respond to those kinds of folks who have other agendas?

777
00:49:03,060 –> 00:49:06,440
No. Yeah. It’s it’s

778
00:49:07,140 –> 00:49:10,500
that’s, so quickly before jumping in there, it’s interesting.

779
00:49:10,500 –> 00:49:14,180
Kynes in the book, eventually does kind of become a

780
00:49:14,180 –> 00:49:17,924
believer. He does. And so he he he comes along.

781
00:49:17,924 –> 00:49:21,605
And I think there’s there’s a lesson in that too, which

782
00:49:21,605 –> 00:49:25,204
is, you know, there’s there’s a variety of ways to deal

783
00:49:25,204 –> 00:49:29,045
with with those, and that’s always contextual in situation. Right?

784
00:49:29,045 –> 00:49:32,740
Leadership is. And everyone needs to be

785
00:49:32,740 –> 00:49:36,500
led differently. And a really great leader will be able to switch

786
00:49:36,500 –> 00:49:40,280
gears well enough to be able to lead, at a group and or individual

787
00:49:40,420 –> 00:49:43,160
level, lead people the way that they need to be led,

788
00:49:44,744 –> 00:49:48,345
which is just part of the one of the bigger challenges

789
00:49:48,345 –> 00:49:52,105
of of leadership and why it is certainly a craft, to

790
00:49:52,105 –> 00:49:55,785
be to be learned. But I think some of that does come

791
00:49:55,785 –> 00:49:59,224
back to and I think maybe to some degree in the case of of

792
00:49:59,224 –> 00:50:02,880
Kynes that if

793
00:50:02,880 –> 00:50:06,580
you’re cultivating a familial environment to Ryan’s point

794
00:50:06,880 –> 00:50:10,580
and building a new culture, that,

795
00:50:12,080 –> 00:50:14,660
that is is working for the larger majority,

796
00:50:15,945 –> 00:50:19,645
eventually, people will self select in or self select out.

797
00:50:19,705 –> 00:50:22,425
Mhmm. And, you know, it kinda calls back to,

798
00:50:25,705 –> 00:50:28,665
you know, some of the the great works on getting the right people on the

799
00:50:28,665 –> 00:50:32,310
bus and getting the wrong people off. Sometimes that those have to be

800
00:50:32,310 –> 00:50:35,850
more direct actions to get them off. Sometimes they will jump off,

801
00:50:36,710 –> 00:50:40,230
and and that’ll just come by very nature of seeing a new

802
00:50:40,230 –> 00:50:44,010
direction forming. And, people will

803
00:50:45,185 –> 00:50:48,005
know when to exit or they or they won’t, and you’ll have to,

804
00:50:48,705 –> 00:50:52,465
unfortunately, exit exit them yourself. Right. And those

805
00:50:52,465 –> 00:50:56,145
are the that’s that’s the conflict I come back to. Right? Sometimes that

806
00:50:56,145 –> 00:50:59,620
requires some difficult decisions to remove an

807
00:50:59,620 –> 00:51:02,980
obstacle, for the team there, as well.

808
00:51:02,980 –> 00:51:06,660
So certainly, you know, a challenging a challenging

809
00:51:06,660 –> 00:51:10,420
instance. But, I did wanna circle back to your point about I I

810
00:51:10,420 –> 00:51:14,095
had not pulled this out before, Dasanu and Ryan. So I wanna appreciate

811
00:51:14,255 –> 00:51:17,474
I do wanna appreciate the note on the importance

812
00:51:18,255 –> 00:51:22,095
of leaving on a high note or knowing when to exit

813
00:51:22,095 –> 00:51:25,634
stage, because I do think that’s so important.

814
00:51:25,890 –> 00:51:29,490
And it’s you know, I have been I’ve observed I’ve been in my career long

815
00:51:29,490 –> 00:51:33,270
enough to have observed this play out positively, negatively,

816
00:51:33,890 –> 00:51:36,950
you know, over time. But I do think it also,

817
00:51:38,369 –> 00:51:41,715
on on the kind of flip side, if you will,

818
00:51:41,855 –> 00:51:45,295
internally, it speaks to the importance of being to some

819
00:51:45,295 –> 00:51:49,055
degree, not always present, you know, to some degree, like

820
00:51:49,055 –> 00:51:52,655
there’s there’s a distance between you as as a leader and and and your

821
00:51:52,655 –> 00:51:56,220
team. Mhmm. And you can’t be too familial. Mhmm.

822
00:51:56,540 –> 00:52:00,080
There does have to be some measure of sort

823
00:52:00,300 –> 00:52:03,900
of parental, you know, position to be able

824
00:52:03,900 –> 00:52:07,715
to, to lead and to to hold authority and

825
00:52:07,735 –> 00:52:11,575
and to make the difficult decisions required of you in that position.

826
00:52:11,575 –> 00:52:15,095
And so not being overly present, cultivating an

827
00:52:15,095 –> 00:52:18,395
an, an air of scarcity,

828
00:52:19,190 –> 00:52:22,650
scarcity, is important. And I think even

829
00:52:22,869 –> 00:52:26,710
some of my favorite, readings from

830
00:52:26,710 –> 00:52:30,470
graduate school, like the 1st 90 days, for example, you know, speaks to this and

831
00:52:30,470 –> 00:52:33,210
the importance of kind of establishing Mhmm. Your

832
00:52:34,285 –> 00:52:38,125
expectations with the team of being being accessible and maintaining an open door policy,

833
00:52:38,125 –> 00:52:41,965
but at the same time, not being too accessible. That there

834
00:52:41,965 –> 00:52:45,565
is a fine line as there is with everything. So, and I hadn’t

835
00:52:45,565 –> 00:52:49,300
necessarily pulled that out of Dune, before.

836
00:52:49,300 –> 00:52:52,980
And that’s that’s a really that’s a really, really, good

837
00:52:52,980 –> 00:52:56,819
piece, especially as it relates back to, to ET Lawrence,

838
00:52:56,819 –> 00:53:00,599
I think, as you said, Jason. Yeah. Well and I think that that’s actually

839
00:53:01,145 –> 00:53:04,765
why Duke Leto at tradies winds up in the spot that he winds up there.

840
00:53:04,825 –> 00:53:07,305
And it took me it was sort of one of those things that it took

841
00:53:07,305 –> 00:53:10,905
me a little bit to click to, because I was trying to figure out

842
00:53:11,625 –> 00:53:14,620
and and we’ll talk about the Baron Vladimir

843
00:53:15,080 –> 00:53:17,960
Harkin in here in just a moment. We’re we’re gonna talk about villains in a

844
00:53:17,960 –> 00:53:21,560
minute, but including that scuzzy little

845
00:53:21,560 –> 00:53:22,940
nephew of his. Anyway,

846
00:53:25,480 –> 00:53:29,215
you know, the the kind of background I have and and

847
00:53:29,215 –> 00:53:31,935
Ryan knows a little bit about my background and then knows a little bit about

848
00:53:31,935 –> 00:53:35,535
where I came from. Like, guys like that get clapped, like, quick. Like, they do

849
00:53:35,535 –> 00:53:38,895
a lot of damage, but they get clapped quick. Like and we all, like, figure

850
00:53:38,895 –> 00:53:42,095
it out and, like, move on. But in polite society, I I think as you

851
00:53:42,095 –> 00:53:45,160
go up up the hierarchy, it gets a little bit harder to sort of reach

852
00:53:45,160 –> 00:53:48,940
out to those people and and, as my mother would say, snatch them bald headed.

853
00:53:50,520 –> 00:53:53,080
It becomes a little bit more of a challenge. But we’ll talk about that in

854
00:53:53,080 –> 00:53:56,785
just a second, because they have all these protectors around them, and they

855
00:53:56,785 –> 00:54:00,385
have these walls around them. There’s certain things you can’t do because of propriety and

856
00:54:00,385 –> 00:54:03,105
and all that. Although, I think a lot of that’s has changed and is continuing

857
00:54:03,105 –> 00:54:06,645
to change. But this idea

858
00:54:06,785 –> 00:54:10,150
of and, again, I think that

859
00:54:11,809 –> 00:54:15,349
it it kinda struck me. And it wasn’t just a combination of it wasn’t just

860
00:54:15,410 –> 00:54:19,250
never outstay a climax, which is another variation saying leave on a high note. It

861
00:54:19,250 –> 00:54:22,069
was also this idea, and I’ve been talking a lot about this lately.

862
00:54:23,315 –> 00:54:26,775
William Shakespeare writes in the great play Julius Caesar.

863
00:54:27,395 –> 00:54:30,935
There’s a great scene. I think it’s in act 3 of Julius Caesar

864
00:54:31,475 –> 00:54:35,235
where Caesar’s talking to Calpurnia. Right? And Calpurnia, his

865
00:54:35,235 –> 00:54:38,600
wife, is trying to get him to not go to the Senate because she senses

866
00:54:38,600 –> 00:54:42,280
that something is going to happen to him. And he says he says this

867
00:54:42,280 –> 00:54:45,980
great line. I love it. He goes everywhere always I am Caesar.

868
00:54:48,680 –> 00:54:52,175
Like, why wouldn’t and and and then there’s just dead silence there. And and Shakespeare

869
00:54:52,235 –> 00:54:55,835
leaves that line just hanging there. He puts a period at the end of it,

870
00:54:55,835 –> 00:54:58,555
and he just leaves the line hanging there. Right? He doesn’t put a comma. He

871
00:54:58,555 –> 00:55:01,615
doesn’t leave anything else. Just everywhere always I am Caesar.

872
00:55:02,475 –> 00:55:04,095
And I think in our attempts

873
00:55:05,849 –> 00:55:09,230
to become more familiar with each other

874
00:55:09,849 –> 00:55:13,529
and social media has done a piece of this, the Internet has done a piece

875
00:55:13,529 –> 00:55:17,289
of this. I mean, Dan, you and I connected because of the Internet. We connected

876
00:55:17,289 –> 00:55:20,670
because of LinkedIn, right? Because of a social media platform on the Internet.

877
00:55:22,225 –> 00:55:25,825
We’re all of a certain age. I’m in my mid forties now where

878
00:55:25,825 –> 00:55:29,665
we saw the Internet come into fruition. We aren’t we aren’t we aren’t

879
00:55:29,665 –> 00:55:33,105
that generation that the one that’s like a couple of generations behind us. We aren’t

880
00:55:33,105 –> 00:55:36,480
the ones that were born into it. And it was just here. We saw it

881
00:55:36,480 –> 00:55:40,260
develop. Right? And so we’ve gone from my dad,

882
00:55:41,360 –> 00:55:45,040
who would have been in his seventies if he were still alive. My

883
00:55:45,040 –> 00:55:48,340
father would have no interest in the Internet beyond just, like,

884
00:55:48,835 –> 00:55:51,475
yeah. I mean, that’s cool, but, like, why do I wanna talk to somebody in

885
00:55:51,475 –> 00:55:55,235
Australia? Now we we’ve leapfrogged in 20 years

886
00:55:55,235 –> 00:55:59,075
to, no, we can’t get away we can’t get away without this connection.

887
00:55:59,075 –> 00:56:02,755
But what this does is it brings a feeling of familiarity. And so

888
00:56:02,755 –> 00:56:06,119
when a leader is operating inside of this

889
00:56:06,119 –> 00:56:09,500
space, the tension is, am I familiar?

890
00:56:10,040 –> 00:56:13,880
Am I friends with my am I friends with my people on Facebook? Or

891
00:56:13,880 –> 00:56:17,635
do I need that distance? And people look at that distance, bless you,

892
00:56:17,635 –> 00:56:20,535
Ryan. People look at that distance as rejection

893
00:56:21,475 –> 00:56:25,155
even though in reality, it is an idea, like you’re talking

894
00:56:25,155 –> 00:56:28,515
about that certain distance. Once you have that

895
00:56:28,515 –> 00:56:32,290
distance, then you know when to leave, I think, or you

896
00:56:32,290 –> 00:56:36,130
know when to stay. Now Julius Caesar, of course, dies in the senate. Duke

897
00:56:36,130 –> 00:56:39,890
Leto gets, of course, betrayed and dies, you know,

898
00:56:39,890 –> 00:56:43,515
himself. And I think the sin of

899
00:56:43,515 –> 00:56:46,635
Leto and the sin of Caesar are the same, just on different sides of the

900
00:56:46,635 –> 00:56:50,015
coin. You know? It’s this idea that I overstayed my climax.

901
00:56:50,555 –> 00:56:54,395
I I I maybe shouldn’t have gone to Arrakis. Maybe I should have just

902
00:56:54,395 –> 00:56:57,900
sent Paul. Maybe that would have been good enough. Now Paul’s

903
00:56:57,900 –> 00:57:01,260
15, obviously. You know, you’re gonna send a 15 year old to do a man’s

904
00:57:01,260 –> 00:57:05,100
job. Well, maybe maybe then he

905
00:57:05,100 –> 00:57:08,724
avoids the messiah nonsense that happens later on in, in the

906
00:57:08,724 –> 00:57:11,925
3rd part of, in the 3rd part of doom. Or maybe maybe he still runs

907
00:57:11,925 –> 00:57:14,565
into it, but just in a different kind of way. You know, that’s a nice

908
00:57:14,565 –> 00:57:18,085
little counterfactual there. I I don’t know. But I think of these kinds of things

909
00:57:18,085 –> 00:57:21,065
when I when I touch on this, when I touch on this material.

910
00:57:22,165 –> 00:57:25,840
Yeah. There’s a there’s a lot there. There’s a lot

911
00:57:25,840 –> 00:57:29,360
there. There’s a lot there. It’s always a it’s a it’s a difficult one.

912
00:57:30,160 –> 00:57:33,840
And frankly, on a on a personal level, I’ve always struggled with that. Mhmm.

913
00:57:33,840 –> 00:57:37,575
Sort of, you know, just the desire to be, you

914
00:57:37,575 –> 00:57:40,795
know, close with and kind of friends with and just just the,

915
00:57:42,295 –> 00:57:45,575
the familial atmosphere you wanna maintain with a

916
00:57:45,655 –> 00:57:49,290
cultivate with a team and that buy in at the

917
00:57:49,290 –> 00:57:53,130
same time maintaining a certain distance. Right. Or does just how

918
00:57:53,130 –> 00:57:56,810
we’re wired, how we’re raised, our personalities, you

919
00:57:56,810 –> 00:58:00,490
know, and and that’s why I think some personalities are better suited for leadership than

920
00:58:00,490 –> 00:58:03,725
others. So, it just kinda comes back to that. So,

921
00:58:05,165 –> 00:58:08,845
you know, there’s a there on a, on the importance of knowing when to

922
00:58:08,845 –> 00:58:12,225
exit the stage, you asked an earlier question, Hassan, around,

923
00:58:13,805 –> 00:58:17,325
you know, what is what is the warning for overly charismatic leaders too?

924
00:58:17,325 –> 00:58:21,090
Mhmm. I think there’s a a related warning here,

925
00:58:21,630 –> 00:58:23,650
you know, around exiting the stage

926
00:58:25,310 –> 00:58:29,070
that that, you know, it’s reflected in one of my

927
00:58:29,070 –> 00:58:32,910
favorite lines from, The Dark Knight. It’s Christopher Nolan. Right? It’s like

928
00:58:32,910 –> 00:58:36,565
you die a hero where you live long enough to see

929
00:58:36,565 –> 00:58:40,404
yourself become the villain. Right. Which I I think it it

930
00:58:40,404 –> 00:58:43,065
resonates with us because, you know, that’s,

931
00:58:44,565 –> 00:58:47,924
again, been in my career long enough to have seen, like, almost any

932
00:58:47,924 –> 00:58:51,640
leader regardless of how great they were. Once

933
00:58:51,640 –> 00:58:54,840
they’re out of a role, you got a new leader coming in, you know, people

934
00:58:54,840 –> 00:58:58,620
are comparing them and you kind of forget about the great things they did,

935
00:58:59,880 –> 00:59:03,595
dependent upon, you know, etcetera. And there’s, you know, people tend to

936
00:59:03,595 –> 00:59:07,035
vilify, their leaders. So, you know, knowing when

937
00:59:07,035 –> 00:59:10,875
to exit the stage and when you’ve done enough, you know, you mentioned

938
00:59:10,875 –> 00:59:14,635
George Washington. I’m watching a phenomenal documentary on him right now. And just, like, again,

939
00:59:14,635 –> 00:59:16,495
that’s one of the greatest things,

940
00:59:18,320 –> 00:59:21,940
One of the reasons he’s so well remembered, he knew when to exit the stage.

941
00:59:22,880 –> 00:59:26,240
Yeah. He knew when to put down power. He knew when to get out. Us

942
00:59:26,240 –> 00:59:29,760
all. And it’s like a ball. Right? Future generations. You know?

943
00:59:29,760 –> 00:59:33,495
Yeah. So, it’s a it’s an important one for the

944
00:59:33,495 –> 00:59:37,175
longer. Ryan, let’s talk about the

945
00:59:37,175 –> 00:59:40,875
Barron. Let’s talk about Barron Harkonen for a little bit.

946
00:59:43,269 –> 00:59:47,029
You’ve you’ve had experiences in your life where people have just not liked

947
00:59:47,029 –> 00:59:50,869
your face. Currently going through several of those,

948
00:59:51,029 –> 00:59:51,529
relationships.

949
00:59:54,789 –> 00:59:58,495
What but no villain to go back to the dark night, honestly.

950
00:59:58,635 –> 01:00:02,395
Right? The villain of the dark night, the joker didn’t think he was the

951
01:00:02,395 –> 01:00:06,235
villain. He he thought he was just well, even said, I’m a

952
01:00:06,235 –> 01:00:09,035
dog. And by the way, it’s one of my favorite movies too. I’m a dog

953
01:00:09,035 –> 01:00:11,400
chasing a car, or I wouldn’t know what to do with it if I caught

954
01:00:11,400 –> 01:00:15,020
it. I’m just it was chaos. I just do things. Right?

955
01:00:17,160 –> 01:00:20,680
The the, yeah, the the the baron. Right? The

956
01:00:20,680 –> 01:00:24,140
baron doesn’t view himself as a villain.

957
01:00:24,714 –> 01:00:28,555
He views himself as protecting and, yes, he is

958
01:00:28,555 –> 01:00:32,335
a venal weasel. Let’s just be very clear. But he views himself

959
01:00:32,474 –> 01:00:36,015
as protecting the spice, protecting the trade,

960
01:00:36,474 –> 01:00:39,615
protecting what makes his house valuable.

961
01:00:40,270 –> 01:00:44,110
And, of course, if there’s a side benefit to crushing a different another house, he’s

962
01:00:44,110 –> 01:00:47,070
gonna take that as well. Like, isn’t there’s no way he’s not gonna take that

963
01:00:47,070 –> 01:00:50,510
extra off the table. He does not view himself as a

964
01:00:50,510 –> 01:00:54,285
villain. Ryan, what do we do when we don’t

965
01:00:54,285 –> 01:00:57,724
view ourselves as a villain? How how do we switch our brains on

966
01:00:57,724 –> 01:00:58,224
that?

967
01:01:02,365 –> 01:01:05,825
I keep going back to how much of

968
01:01:09,809 –> 01:01:13,650
groups of people or just people in this book rely on the

969
01:01:13,650 –> 01:01:17,490
lure of their position or character. The Betty Jesser, it’s

970
01:01:17,490 –> 01:01:20,390
great. When she asked, what is this?

971
01:01:21,435 –> 01:01:25,115
And she says, it’s a she’s going to say it’s a maker of death, but

972
01:01:25,115 –> 01:01:28,875
it’s a maker and it’s the Chris knife. And it’s, like, a misunderstanding that

973
01:01:28,875 –> 01:01:32,415
keeps Paul as the messiah

974
01:01:34,020 –> 01:01:37,160
in it keeps that alive. Mhmm.

975
01:01:41,540 –> 01:01:45,140
Restate it again. So, you know, when you’re a

976
01:01:45,140 –> 01:01:48,500
villain or or if you you don’t see yourself as the villain, how do

977
01:01:48,500 –> 01:01:52,305
you looking at the baron and looking at

978
01:01:52,305 –> 01:01:56,065
his motivations? Right? Like, how does he how can he can he

979
01:01:56,065 –> 01:01:59,185
reset himself? And I I think Well, I think so the reason

980
01:01:59,425 –> 01:02:02,085
so, butt it up again, say,

981
01:02:03,585 –> 01:02:07,400
Leto, where it’s like trying to establish trust

982
01:02:07,799 –> 01:02:11,400
Mhmm. And that building, you know, even if, you know, that he is the

983
01:02:11,400 –> 01:02:15,079
leader and and, the harkening, it’s it’s like,

984
01:02:15,079 –> 01:02:18,780
no. This is he’s stating fact and the confidence is very sure.

985
01:02:19,000 –> 01:02:22,655
Mhmm. Whereas, I don’t know. I think it’s

986
01:02:22,655 –> 01:02:25,875
so revealing when when Jessica says

987
01:02:26,415 –> 01:02:29,715
when she just throws out as an anchor. And so

988
01:02:30,895 –> 01:02:33,395
you’re seeing someone sort of rely on deception,

989
01:02:34,470 –> 01:02:38,230
and we’re harkening. It it’s like he’s like, it’d be

990
01:02:38,230 –> 01:02:40,710
like, oh, I’m going to deceive you. Don’t take any you know what I mean?

991
01:02:40,710 –> 01:02:44,330
Like, it’s very clear. He’s not he’s not he’s not,

992
01:02:46,070 –> 01:02:49,435
trying to fool anybody about what or who he is. Right.

993
01:02:49,815 –> 01:02:51,915
Yeah. And and and whereas,

994
01:02:53,895 –> 01:02:57,734
from the other end, it seems like coming into this new environment, figuring

995
01:02:57,734 –> 01:03:00,885
out how to so

996
01:03:02,180 –> 01:03:05,859
it’s it’s it’s, I think, a level of trust that needs

997
01:03:06,019 –> 01:03:09,700
I mean, is anyone in the Harkonen would you see an

998
01:03:09,700 –> 01:03:11,640
an upheaval to go against?

999
01:03:13,380 –> 01:03:16,519
No. But I think his nephew definitely wants to overthrow him.

1000
01:03:17,714 –> 01:03:21,234
I I I think that I think the nephew but the nephews wants to

1001
01:03:21,234 –> 01:03:25,015
overthrow him because that’s just what you do. Like, it’s it’s not like

1002
01:03:25,474 –> 01:03:27,734
it’s not as if his nephew has ever questioned.

1003
01:03:29,380 –> 01:03:32,520
I I think of a line in the departed when Leonardo DiCaprio,

1004
01:03:33,460 –> 01:03:36,099
his mother die yeah. His mother dies. And,

1005
01:03:36,980 –> 01:03:40,740
the the brother, I think his uncle shows up at his funeral. This is a

1006
01:03:40,740 –> 01:03:44,495
deep cut, but shows up at the funeral and starts talking to him about

1007
01:03:44,495 –> 01:03:47,635
lecturing about his life or whatever. And Leo goes,

1008
01:03:48,575 –> 01:03:52,335
as the, as the sun goes, you know, and I’m gonna butcher this because

1009
01:03:52,335 –> 01:03:55,555
it’s been a while since I’ve seen the departed. But he says,

1010
01:03:57,170 –> 01:04:00,530
maybe you should be thinking about how, like, all the things you did and all

1011
01:04:00,530 –> 01:04:04,370
the decisions that you made led to your children being screwed up. Maybe you

1012
01:04:04,370 –> 01:04:07,410
should not be coming down here and telling me how I’m screwed up. Maybe you

1013
01:04:07,410 –> 01:04:10,870
should go fix your own house and stop trying to give me a lecture. Right?

1014
01:04:12,215 –> 01:04:15,595
And and the baron’s nephew

1015
01:04:16,615 –> 01:04:20,375
understands that things are screwed up, but that’s he’s a fish

1016
01:04:20,375 –> 01:04:24,055
in the water. He’s not gonna question the water. Well, that’s what I’m

1017
01:04:24,055 –> 01:04:27,680
trying to say. There’s there’s not a link between. There’s not someone in

1018
01:04:27,680 –> 01:04:31,519
between to make that. Whereas the uncle is, like,

1019
01:04:31,519 –> 01:04:34,900
the surrogate message. You know? Like, hey.

1020
01:04:34,960 –> 01:04:38,720
You know? Or or Leonardo. Like, that that relationship where

1021
01:04:38,720 –> 01:04:42,484
they can be direct and honest with each other. Right. Everything

1022
01:04:42,484 –> 01:04:46,085
else is strategy because there are so many other people involved. So I

1023
01:04:46,085 –> 01:04:49,845
think having, like, a right hand man is really valid or a right

1024
01:04:49,845 –> 01:04:53,684
hand person is really valid because then you have someone to bounce ideas

1025
01:04:53,684 –> 01:04:55,704
off of and there’s, like, another,

1026
01:04:58,060 –> 01:05:01,900
there’s another fail stop before kind of, you know,

1027
01:05:02,700 –> 01:05:06,380
following through with whatever. It it because it could be things could

1028
01:05:06,380 –> 01:05:10,140
be a reaction to something. Mhmm. And I don’t know. It just

1029
01:05:10,140 –> 01:05:13,895
it just seems, I

1030
01:05:13,895 –> 01:05:16,715
don’t know, more palatable to to to

1031
01:05:17,735 –> 01:05:21,575
have a larger network rather than being the godhead. Well, it’s interesting that

1032
01:05:21,575 –> 01:05:24,955
you bring this up because Duke Leto was surrounded by a bunch of different

1033
01:05:25,495 –> 01:05:29,110
advisers, all of whom were giving him different information.

1034
01:05:30,050 –> 01:05:33,810
The baron, on the other hand, seems to seems seems

1035
01:05:33,810 –> 01:05:37,590
to be lacking in a good number 2. And, you know,

1036
01:05:37,810 –> 01:05:41,185
and he doesn’t want a good number 2, by the

1037
01:05:41,185 –> 01:05:45,025
way. He’s fine with himself. He’s he’s cool. He’s

1038
01:05:45,025 –> 01:05:48,465
cool with like how all this is working out. Right? Because it’s working out to

1039
01:05:48,465 –> 01:05:51,765
benefit him. And you see this in

1040
01:05:52,200 –> 01:05:54,520
when he betrays the Duke later. And we’re gonna talk about this in just a

1041
01:05:54,520 –> 01:05:57,500
minute or not. He he the the conspiracy

1042
01:05:57,880 –> 01:06:01,720
unfolds right against Duke later. And we’ll talk about this in a minute, as

1043
01:06:01,720 –> 01:06:05,260
we go into the back end of our conversation here today. But he

1044
01:06:06,515 –> 01:06:10,135
he he kidnaps sort of the when I kidnaps, he takes the,

1045
01:06:11,115 –> 01:06:14,455
the the basically the male mental manipulator, the mentant.

1046
01:06:14,755 –> 01:06:18,595
Mental. Yeah. And sort of tries to turn him. Right? Or or

1047
01:06:18,595 –> 01:06:22,410
thinks he has successfully turned him. And that guy could have been

1048
01:06:22,410 –> 01:06:25,930
a really good number 2 for you, but you just wanted to

1049
01:06:25,930 –> 01:06:29,690
manipulate him. You don’t want a good number 2. Right? And

1050
01:06:29,690 –> 01:06:33,450
one of the things in my career that I’ve sort

1051
01:06:33,450 –> 01:06:37,115
of in every entrepreneurial kind of,

1052
01:06:38,295 –> 01:06:41,895
adventure that I’ve ever gone on. And I’ve been an entrepreneur for a long time.

1053
01:06:42,135 –> 01:06:45,655
Dan, I haven’t had a regular job in a long long time. 15 years. I

1054
01:06:45,655 –> 01:06:49,230
haven’t had a regular job. Right? I’m trying to try and keep that streak going.

1055
01:06:50,030 –> 01:06:53,250
You know, and some days it’s a little bit more close run than others.

1056
01:06:53,950 –> 01:06:57,390
But, but one of the things that I’ve noticed as an

1057
01:06:57,390 –> 01:07:01,090
entrepreneur, as a starter, as a person who does projects is

1058
01:07:01,390 –> 01:07:04,050
you either have to have a good number 2

1059
01:07:05,975 –> 01:07:09,575
or you have to be a good number 2. And

1060
01:07:09,575 –> 01:07:13,415
you kind of have to figure that out, like right there. Like you kind

1061
01:07:13,415 –> 01:07:16,555
of have to figure out where you’re sitting in the hierarchy sort of immediately.

1062
01:07:17,735 –> 01:07:21,410
If you don’t, then you wind up wandering around with a lot of confusion,

1063
01:07:21,470 –> 01:07:25,230
you know, and you wind up wandering around and maybe you’re the villain, maybe

1064
01:07:25,230 –> 01:07:29,070
you’re the hero, but, you know, the project will move forward at a certain

1065
01:07:29,070 –> 01:07:32,895
point underneath its own inertia, whatever it is. But to have a

1066
01:07:32,895 –> 01:07:36,495
good adviser or be a good adviser is is is critical, and you gotta figure

1067
01:07:36,495 –> 01:07:40,335
that out quite quickly. And, you know, a a wonderful

1068
01:07:40,335 –> 01:07:44,175
example is, in in the show, The Walking Dead,

1069
01:07:44,175 –> 01:07:47,920
where Norman Reedus’ character is clearly on the

1070
01:07:47,920 –> 01:07:51,620
one team, but he’s always sort of hovering around. Right.

1071
01:07:52,400 –> 01:07:55,920
You know? So it’s like the autonomy of the individual, yet he’s

1072
01:07:55,920 –> 01:07:59,300
contributing to the larger The larger group. Yeah.

1073
01:08:03,815 –> 01:08:07,654
Back to the book. Back to Dune.

1074
01:08:07,654 –> 01:08:11,434
We’re going to talk a little bit about hierarchy

1075
01:08:11,575 –> 01:08:15,174
and monarchy. And if you’re gonna overthrow a

1076
01:08:15,174 –> 01:08:18,960
government, what’s the best way to do

1077
01:08:18,960 –> 01:08:22,640
that? What’s the best way to stage a rebellion if you’re going to if you’re

1078
01:08:22,640 –> 01:08:26,420
gonna indeed do that? And so, so back to the book, back to

1079
01:08:26,960 –> 01:08:30,645
Dune. Jessica awoke in the dark, feeling

1080
01:08:30,645 –> 01:08:33,844
premonition in the stillness around her. She could not understand why her mind and body

1081
01:08:33,844 –> 01:08:37,524
felt so sluggish. Skin raspings of fear

1082
01:08:37,524 –> 01:08:41,205
ran along her nerves. She thought of sitting up and turning on a

1083
01:08:41,205 –> 01:08:44,425
light, but something stayed the decision. Her mouth felt strange.

1084
01:08:45,150 –> 01:08:48,910
Lump, lump, lump. It was a dull sound directionless in the dark somewhere. The waiting

1085
01:08:48,910 –> 01:08:52,590
moment was packed with time with rustling needle stick movements. She began to

1086
01:08:52,590 –> 01:08:55,630
feel her body grew aware of bindings on wrists and ankles, a gag in her

1087
01:08:55,630 –> 01:08:58,830
mouth. She was on her side, hands tied behind her. She tested the bindings, realized

1088
01:08:58,830 –> 01:09:02,575
they were crims scroll. Crims scale fiber would only caught tighter

1089
01:09:02,575 –> 01:09:06,415
as she pulled it. Now she remembered. There

1090
01:09:06,415 –> 01:09:09,615
had been movement in the darkness of her bedroom, something wet and pungent slapping against

1091
01:09:09,615 –> 01:09:13,239
her face, filling her mouth, hands grasping for her. Chia

1092
01:09:13,239 –> 01:09:16,599
gaps 1 in drawn breath, sensing the narcotic in the

1093
01:09:16,599 –> 01:09:20,199
wetness consciousness had receded, sinking her into a black bin

1094
01:09:20,199 –> 01:09:23,960
of terror. It has come, she

1095
01:09:23,960 –> 01:09:27,420
thought how simple it was to subdue the Ben Casaire. All it took was treachery.

1096
01:09:27,825 –> 01:09:31,505
Hawat was right. She forced herself not to pull on her

1097
01:09:31,505 –> 01:09:35,265
bindings. This is not my bedroom. She thought they’ve taken me someplace else. Slowly, she

1098
01:09:35,265 –> 01:09:39,104
marshaled the inner calmness. Do you go aware of the smell of her

1099
01:09:39,104 –> 01:09:42,540
own stale sweat with this chemical infusion of fear? Where is Paul? She asked herself,

1100
01:09:42,540 –> 01:09:44,960
my son, what have they done to my hand? What have they done to him?

1101
01:09:45,260 –> 01:09:48,640
Calmness. She forced herself to it using the ancient

1102
01:09:48,780 –> 01:09:52,540
routines, but the terror remained so near. Leto, where are you, Leto?

1103
01:09:52,540 –> 01:09:55,840
She sensed the diminishing the dark. It began with shadows. Dimension separated

1104
01:09:55,900 –> 01:09:59,695
became new thorns of awareness, white aligned under a door. I’m

1105
01:09:59,695 –> 01:10:03,395
on the floor. People walking. She sensed it through the floor.

1106
01:10:03,534 –> 01:10:07,054
Jessica squeezed back the memory of terror. I must remain calm, alert, and prepared. I

1107
01:10:07,054 –> 01:10:09,875
make it only one chance. Again, she forced the inner calmness.

1108
01:10:10,910 –> 01:10:14,510
The ungainly thumping of her heartbeat even shaping out over time. She counted

1109
01:10:14,510 –> 01:10:18,030
back. I was unconscious about an hour. She closed her eyes, focused her awareness into

1110
01:10:18,270 –> 01:10:22,110
onto the approaching footsteps where people she counted the differences

1111
01:10:22,110 –> 01:10:25,645
in their steps. I must pretend I’m still unconscious. She relaxed against the cold

1112
01:10:25,645 –> 01:10:29,405
floor, testing her body’s readiness, heard a door open, sensed increased life through

1113
01:10:29,405 –> 01:10:33,005
her eyelids. Feet approached someone standing over her. You

1114
01:10:33,005 –> 01:10:35,905
are awake, rumbled a basso voice. Do not pretend.

1115
01:10:36,765 –> 01:10:40,140
She opened her eyes. The Baron

1116
01:10:40,140 –> 01:10:43,820
Vladimir Harkonnen stood over her. Around them, she recognized the cellar

1117
01:10:43,820 –> 01:10:47,580
room where Paul had slept, saw his caught in one side empty. Dispenser lamps were

1118
01:10:47,580 –> 01:10:51,100
brought in by guards, distributed near the open door. There was a glare of light

1119
01:10:51,100 –> 01:10:54,675
in the hallway beyond that hurt her eyes. She looked up at the baron. He

1120
01:10:54,675 –> 01:10:58,355
wore a yellow cape that bulged for his portable suspensors. The

1121
01:10:58,355 –> 01:11:02,114
fat cheeks were 2 cherubic mounds beneath spider black eyes. The

1122
01:11:02,114 –> 01:11:05,074
drug was timed. He rumbled. We knew to the minute when you’d be coming out

1123
01:11:05,074 –> 01:11:08,739
of it. How could that be? She wondered to have to know my exact

1124
01:11:08,739 –> 01:11:12,420
weight, my metabolism, my such a pity. You must remain

1125
01:11:12,420 –> 01:11:16,179
gagged. The Baron said we could have had such interesting conversation. You,

1126
01:11:16,340 –> 01:11:20,125
it’s the only one it could be. She thought how The baron glanced at

1127
01:11:20,125 –> 01:11:23,105
him, glanced behind him at the door. Come in, Peter.

1128
01:11:24,605 –> 01:11:27,565
She never before seen the man who entered stand beside the baron, but the face

1129
01:11:27,565 –> 01:11:30,945
was known in the man. Peter, the men had assassin.

1130
01:11:31,230 –> 01:11:34,989
She studied him. Hawk features, blue ink eyes that suggested he was

1131
01:11:34,989 –> 01:11:38,430
a native of Arrakis, but subtleties of movement and stance told her he was

1132
01:11:38,430 –> 01:11:42,270
not. And his flesh was too well firmed with water. He was tall, though,

1133
01:11:42,270 –> 01:11:46,045
slender, and something about him suggested effeminacy.

1134
01:11:48,665 –> 01:11:51,804
I’m gonna stop there because

1135
01:11:52,744 –> 01:11:55,965
that’s the first indication we have that something’s about to go

1136
01:11:56,744 –> 01:11:59,565
radically, ridiculously sideways,

1137
01:12:00,640 –> 01:12:04,480
that there was another plot, a foot. I’m a

1138
01:12:04,480 –> 01:12:07,940
big fan of the show, The Wire, way back in the day. I’m a huge

1139
01:12:08,000 –> 01:12:11,840
fan of that show, and, Omar had a great line in The

1140
01:12:11,840 –> 01:12:15,575
Wire. He said, if you come with the king, you best not

1141
01:12:15,635 –> 01:12:18,855
miss. And that is absolutely

1142
01:12:19,715 –> 01:12:23,495
the truth and the Baron or all of his

1143
01:12:23,715 –> 01:12:26,615
internalized knowledge missed.

1144
01:12:28,080 –> 01:12:31,220
He missed the thing that he was supposed to hit.

1145
01:12:31,760 –> 01:12:33,940
He thought he hit the target, but he didn’t.

1146
01:12:35,840 –> 01:12:39,380
Now what is set up in Dune is a monarchal

1147
01:12:39,520 –> 01:12:43,125
structure. It’s a it’s a monarchy. There’s barons, there’s

1148
01:12:43,125 –> 01:12:46,885
kings, there’s dukes. There’s all these kinds of indicators of a monarchal

1149
01:12:46,885 –> 01:12:50,425
structure, not a democratic one. And we are uncomfortable with monarchy.

1150
01:12:52,565 –> 01:12:56,170
But the fact is we are at the end of a managerial culture,

1151
01:12:56,390 –> 01:13:00,230
I believe, fundamentally in America. That doesn’t mean there won’t be managers in the

1152
01:13:00,230 –> 01:13:03,930
future. There will always be managers or always have been. But we are reshuffling

1153
01:13:04,310 –> 01:13:08,094
around the kind of ways in which we think about how all of

1154
01:13:08,094 –> 01:13:11,875
this goes together. And I don’t know what the solution is.

1155
01:13:12,335 –> 01:13:15,635
But Dune proposes 1, interstellar

1156
01:13:16,094 –> 01:13:19,695
colonization. But such a large scale project requires the

1157
01:13:19,695 –> 01:13:23,409
deploying of critical human resources, including human will that we

1158
01:13:23,409 –> 01:13:26,309
current can currently cannot fathom accomplishing.

1159
01:13:27,250 –> 01:13:31,010
And probably the only system that puts that will out there

1160
01:13:31,010 –> 01:13:34,230
in a focused way is quite frankly, a hierarchical

1161
01:13:34,849 –> 01:13:38,435
monarchy. But we’re uncomfortable with

1162
01:13:38,435 –> 01:13:42,275
that. There’s also the issue of cycles rearing their ugly

1163
01:13:42,275 –> 01:13:45,895
head as you bring every element of being human to the table.

1164
01:13:48,450 –> 01:13:52,050
There’s a challenge that’s presented in Dune, and it starts

1165
01:13:52,050 –> 01:13:55,810
with the way in which Duke Leto goes to Arrakis, the

1166
01:13:55,810 –> 01:13:59,650
way in which he reacts to the spice trade. Right? The

1167
01:13:59,650 –> 01:14:03,264
decisions he decides he’s going to make to Ryan’s point earlier

1168
01:14:03,405 –> 01:14:07,165
about these characters deciding things that other characters deciding things in this

1169
01:14:07,165 –> 01:14:10,304
play is is is moves forward.

1170
01:14:11,804 –> 01:14:15,505
It starts there with the duke, but it it continues even through the duke’s betrayal

1171
01:14:16,170 –> 01:14:19,550
and through the rise of Paul Atreides as this mythical messiah.

1172
01:14:19,930 –> 01:14:23,690
By the way, when you call a 15 year old a messiah, you’re

1173
01:14:23,690 –> 01:14:27,370
gonna have a problem. Just a pro tip. Just pro tip for

1174
01:14:27,370 –> 01:14:31,070
someone who knows. It’s gonna be a real problem.

1175
01:14:32,025 –> 01:14:35,565
And so the challenge of the system being

1176
01:14:35,785 –> 01:14:39,625
the system being designed to do what it does, right, or to be what it

1177
01:14:39,625 –> 01:14:43,245
is, is presented to us in Dune. And

1178
01:14:43,385 –> 01:14:47,040
it is a challenge that arises in every generation, either at the individual

1179
01:14:47,040 –> 01:14:50,720
level or at the state level. And so as we turn our corner on our

1180
01:14:50,720 –> 01:14:54,500
conversation here with Dan, I wanna get his thoughts on this.

1181
01:14:55,120 –> 01:14:58,500
How can leaders avoid being thoughtless

1182
01:14:58,560 –> 01:15:02,215
bureaucrats, whether they’re in a hierarchical, monarchical system or an

1183
01:15:02,215 –> 01:15:05,755
egalitarian democratic one, because it seems to be a

1184
01:15:06,135 –> 01:15:09,735
drift. And that is the drift, I think, partially also that got Duke Leto to

1185
01:15:09,735 –> 01:15:13,255
the spot where he was at. He didn’t seem to be able to

1186
01:15:13,255 –> 01:15:16,670
stop bureaucratic drift. How do we do that as leaders?

1187
01:15:18,969 –> 01:15:21,790
Yeah. That’s certainly a tough one.

1188
01:15:22,489 –> 01:15:26,170
Organizational structures are critical. Put you farther and

1189
01:15:26,170 –> 01:15:30,005
farther away from the people in your market. The larger the organization gets,

1190
01:15:30,005 –> 01:15:31,625
the larger your enterprise gets.

1191
01:15:33,685 –> 01:15:37,445
And, and so it’s a tough challenge. You

1192
01:15:37,445 –> 01:15:41,065
know, I I certainly don’t have the answer. But,

1193
01:15:41,685 –> 01:15:44,920
you know, the we all become frustrated with

1194
01:15:45,300 –> 01:15:48,600
bureaucrats. Right? The definition of somebody who’s a little bit more concerned with procedure

1195
01:15:49,140 –> 01:15:50,760
policy than than people.

1196
01:15:52,580 –> 01:15:55,940
And, you know, one of the things that I think there’s a couple of things.

1197
01:15:55,940 –> 01:15:59,755
1, both of which kinda connect back to 1 previous theme that we were

1198
01:15:59,755 –> 01:16:03,535
touching on and then 2, maybe even a lesson that I took away from

1199
01:16:03,675 –> 01:16:07,455
from Dune. The first one, you know, back to earlier,

1200
01:16:07,595 –> 01:16:11,435
the conversation around having a series of good advisors around us.

1201
01:16:11,435 –> 01:16:15,170
Right? People who are in touch with with people who are in touch with

1202
01:16:15,170 –> 01:16:18,850
the market and who can objectively advise us as leaders. You know, I’ve

1203
01:16:18,850 –> 01:16:22,290
always liked the person the concept of the sort of personal board of

1204
01:16:22,290 –> 01:16:25,970
directors for you and your life, your your,

1205
01:16:26,975 –> 01:16:30,575
your career being your enterprise, that you’re leading and and

1206
01:16:30,575 –> 01:16:34,195
having advisers that you can bounce things off of to stay

1207
01:16:34,495 –> 01:16:38,255
on course, to check yourself, to

1208
01:16:38,255 –> 01:16:42,035
avoid becoming the villain, to to kinda come back to that earlier piece.

1209
01:16:42,560 –> 01:16:46,400
I think the other is, you know, staying in touch with with your

1210
01:16:46,400 –> 01:16:48,980
market, with your people, requires constant,

1211
01:16:50,880 –> 01:16:54,320
movement. Right? Constant innovation. And

1212
01:16:54,320 –> 01:16:58,135
we, as again, coming back to our face or nature

1213
01:16:58,135 –> 01:17:01,275
as humans, which we talked about before, we wanna be comfortable,

1214
01:17:02,375 –> 01:17:05,815
some more than others. And so it’s natural to just become like, let’s just go

1215
01:17:05,815 –> 01:17:09,440
with bureaucratic flow. But there’s a line in the

1216
01:17:09,440 –> 01:17:11,940
book I think that says, you know,

1217
01:17:12,800 –> 01:17:16,260
he, Paul, referencing Paul, fought the temptation

1218
01:17:16,480 –> 01:17:20,275
to choose a clear and safe path

1219
01:17:20,415 –> 01:17:24,255
warning. And I’m, again, don’t know exactly on point here

1220
01:17:24,255 –> 01:17:27,955
warning that that that leads ever down into the into stagnation. Mhmm.

1221
01:17:28,335 –> 01:17:32,115
Which we know. Right? So, I think the implication there being that,

1222
01:17:33,070 –> 01:17:36,050
you know, especially as an entrepreneur, you know, this well,

1223
01:17:36,590 –> 01:17:39,090
Hassan, the constant,

1224
01:17:40,190 –> 01:17:44,030
energy, action, innovation keeps you sharp, keeps you

1225
01:17:44,030 –> 01:17:47,630
keeps you in touch with your market, keeps you up to date on what’s happening,

1226
01:17:47,630 –> 01:17:50,545
and and and hopefully ahead of and seeing what’s coming next.

1227
01:17:51,725 –> 01:17:55,505
And also speaks to the importance of especially as a leader, as an entrepreneur,

1228
01:17:57,405 –> 01:18:01,025
your willingness and the importance of stretching yourself intellectually,

1229
01:18:01,565 –> 01:18:05,400
even physically is is what’s

1230
01:18:05,700 –> 01:18:09,000
necessary to maintain your professional success.

1231
01:18:09,940 –> 01:18:13,380
And sometimes that that requires, blowing up the

1232
01:18:13,380 –> 01:18:16,820
ship, if you will. And by that, I mean, moving on to the next thing

1233
01:18:16,820 –> 01:18:20,514
and exiting the stage. Right. So it’s time for the for the for the next

1234
01:18:20,514 –> 01:18:23,235
chapter and knowing when that is. Right?

1235
01:18:24,994 –> 01:18:28,695
Which, you know, again, this is a podcast on films and pop culture.

1236
01:18:29,875 –> 01:18:33,420
I I always appreciate it. I think it was the actor who played Captain

1237
01:18:33,420 –> 01:18:37,100
America talked about that too. Oh, yes. Mhmm. But this was the right moment. I

1238
01:18:37,100 –> 01:18:40,220
don’t wanna come back to this character. Like, we left it on such a high

1239
01:18:40,220 –> 01:18:43,980
note. Like, that was the right moment. Leave before they ask

1240
01:18:43,980 –> 01:18:47,785
you to. So Never never never never

1241
01:18:47,785 –> 01:18:51,545
ever stay at climax back to back to the t, Lawrence. Never

1242
01:18:51,545 –> 01:18:55,305
do that. Yeah. Okay. That’s

1243
01:18:55,305 –> 01:18:57,465
all I got. I I don’t I don’t have I don’t have the answer right.

1244
01:18:57,465 –> 01:19:00,265
You don’t have the answer yet. I don’t think anybody does. I think it’s I

1245
01:19:00,265 –> 01:19:03,380
think it’s I think it’s it’s a challenge

1246
01:19:03,680 –> 01:19:07,200
that quite frankly, I mean, and we we

1247
01:19:07,200 –> 01:19:11,040
cover the, state papers of the United States on this podcast, in

1248
01:19:11,040 –> 01:19:14,455
the month of July. So we talk about the declaration of independence, the

1249
01:19:14,455 –> 01:19:18,235
Federalist arguments for the Constitution, the Anti Federalist

1250
01:19:18,295 –> 01:19:21,995
arguments against the Constitution. And typically we will focus on a

1251
01:19:23,015 –> 01:19:26,695
particular amendment or a Supreme Court decision. Usually

1252
01:19:26,695 –> 01:19:30,410
those are released in June. That impacts the way we think

1253
01:19:30,410 –> 01:19:34,090
about the Constitution. And, you know, when you look at the state

1254
01:19:34,090 –> 01:19:37,929
papers of the United States and you look at the level of thought that those

1255
01:19:37,929 –> 01:19:41,535
men put into those the creation of of

1256
01:19:41,535 –> 01:19:45,375
those documents that laid the laid the keel, for the United

1257
01:19:45,375 –> 01:19:48,275
States of America that we all kinda just take for granted.

1258
01:19:49,295 –> 01:19:52,995
You look at the intentionality that they put into that, and even they

1259
01:19:53,215 –> 01:19:56,890
didn’t have you know, I’m just a schmuck hosted a book

1260
01:19:56,890 –> 01:20:00,590
podcast. Like, you know, I, you know, I’m not trying to create a country here.

1261
01:20:00,890 –> 01:20:04,170
They were trying to create a country and even they didn’t have an answer to

1262
01:20:04,170 –> 01:20:08,010
that question. Right. With all of their intentionality and everything that they brought

1263
01:20:08,010 –> 01:20:09,630
to the game. And so,

1264
01:20:11,465 –> 01:20:15,305
I admire the effort to go to it. And we’ll talk about solutions

1265
01:20:15,305 –> 01:20:18,825
to problems here in a minute. I admire, you know, the

1266
01:20:18,825 –> 01:20:22,445
effort of talking about a solution versus just continually

1267
01:20:22,505 –> 01:20:26,320
masticating a horror problem. And we have to

1268
01:20:26,320 –> 01:20:29,120
put something out there. Right? I mean, we can’t just just we can’t just keep

1269
01:20:29,120 –> 01:20:32,100
talking about the problem. Ryan,

1270
01:20:33,120 –> 01:20:36,720
one of the interesting things about Dune is that it

1271
01:20:36,720 –> 01:20:40,455
is a epic tale, but it’s an epic tale about human

1272
01:20:40,455 –> 01:20:44,135
beings, marshaling their resources. It’s like, it’s as if all of

1273
01:20:44,135 –> 01:20:47,515
the descendants of Elon Musk, all of a sudden got together.

1274
01:20:48,375 –> 01:20:52,080
All 14 of his kids that he’s got all got together. And like a

1275
01:20:52,080 –> 01:20:55,200
1000 years from now, we’re all just gonna be descendants of Elon Musk. Right. You’re

1276
01:20:55,200 –> 01:20:58,420
gonna wipe out the people that don’t have the ability to marshal the human resources.

1277
01:20:58,800 –> 01:21:02,400
And we’re just gonna go. Okay. Thanks. And you get that sense from doing that

1278
01:21:02,400 –> 01:21:06,095
all these people. In particular, by the way, and I haven’t talked about the

1279
01:21:06,095 –> 01:21:09,775
religious elements, Dan, but, like, they’re talk I love it how they talk

1280
01:21:09,775 –> 01:21:12,655
about the OC translation of the bible, and I’m like, what is what is he

1281
01:21:12,655 –> 01:21:14,195
even talking about here?

1282
01:21:16,495 –> 01:21:20,060
But it’s interesting because I have said repeatedly

1283
01:21:20,199 –> 01:21:23,420
on this show that the Bible is the one book

1284
01:21:24,119 –> 01:21:27,659
that resists the algorithm. It resists

1285
01:21:28,119 –> 01:21:31,420
the machinations and the manipulations of

1286
01:21:31,480 –> 01:21:34,965
people, and it instead changes. It’s the one

1287
01:21:34,965 –> 01:21:38,805
one one of maybe 2 or 3 books on the planet that actually changes you.

1288
01:21:38,805 –> 01:21:42,645
You don’t change it. It actually changes you. And it’s interesting that that’s the

1289
01:21:42,645 –> 01:21:46,485
book that’s going to or some variation of it that’s going to make it

1290
01:21:46,485 –> 01:21:49,930
to the stars in Herbert’s, you know, in Herbert’s world.

1291
01:21:51,030 –> 01:21:53,930
I say all that to say this. My question for Ryan is this.

1292
01:21:56,070 –> 01:21:59,190
How can we what what should leaders be focused on? Should they be focused on

1293
01:21:59,190 –> 01:22:02,865
marshaling their resources, controlling human willpower? Like, where should

1294
01:22:02,865 –> 01:22:06,225
leaders place their focus first? It depends on the

1295
01:22:06,225 –> 01:22:10,065
size of the community they’re leading, I would think. It

1296
01:22:10,065 –> 01:22:13,665
is enormous. I mean, are you talking about a family unit? Are you

1297
01:22:13,665 –> 01:22:17,505
talking about a community? You know, and and in this case, we’re talking about,

1298
01:22:17,505 –> 01:22:20,900
like, worlds. Right. Yeah. Yeah. We’re talking about interstellar

1299
01:22:21,360 –> 01:22:24,340
interstellar And so when you bring into that

1300
01:22:25,600 –> 01:22:29,200
scale. Yeah. There’s 0. I

1301
01:22:29,200 –> 01:22:33,025
mean I think there’s an episode of Transformers

1302
01:22:33,245 –> 01:22:36,925
from the eighties that deals with it when one of the Transformers is an entire

1303
01:22:36,925 –> 01:22:39,344
planet, but I don’t know if that’s applicable here.

1304
01:22:41,405 –> 01:22:44,930
A lot of the, so what else I’ve written down

1305
01:22:44,930 –> 01:22:48,550
is Paul’s decision to do the difficult thing would make David Goggins

1306
01:22:48,610 –> 01:22:52,290
proud, you know. And Who’s gonna carry the

1307
01:22:52,290 –> 01:22:55,970
boats? Who’s gonna carry the logs? And so a

1308
01:22:55,970 –> 01:22:59,755
couple of things. The bureaucratic things, like, they can some of my sister

1309
01:22:59,755 –> 01:23:03,454
said to me a while back was, like, you make your decisions

1310
01:23:06,235 –> 01:23:10,074
based on, like, a moral model that you’re not which is you’re

1311
01:23:10,074 –> 01:23:13,780
talking about the bible. Mhmm. You’re making decisions on a moral model, so I

1312
01:23:13,780 –> 01:23:17,220
don’t have to tease through. I mean, if there’s something that I

1313
01:23:17,220 –> 01:23:20,980
disagree with, this does not line up with my, you know, kind

1314
01:23:20,980 –> 01:23:24,420
of like my spiritual center, then it kinda makes some decisions for

1315
01:23:24,420 –> 01:23:27,824
me. But we’re not talking about in this book

1316
01:23:27,885 –> 01:23:31,485
relocating jobs because it’s not a good fit. We’re talking

1317
01:23:31,485 –> 01:23:34,864
about the leader, marshaling

1318
01:23:35,085 –> 01:23:36,545
resources and allies.

1319
01:23:42,630 –> 01:23:46,390
No. Well, if

1320
01:23:46,390 –> 01:23:50,150
that’s not their responsibility on some level, at least

1321
01:23:50,150 –> 01:23:53,925
some variation of because I don’t wanna be

1322
01:23:53,925 –> 01:23:57,545
as, so as absolute as, controlling

1323
01:23:57,605 –> 01:23:59,204
human willpower. That’s a

1324
01:24:01,284 –> 01:24:04,885
but what, I mean, what is a leader’s

1325
01:24:04,885 –> 01:24:07,784
responsibility if not securing the

1326
01:24:08,830 –> 01:24:12,449
area that you’re occupying. Mhmm.

1327
01:24:15,310 –> 01:24:18,830
Well, that’s a great question. What is a leader’s responsibility? And and that is

1328
01:24:20,205 –> 01:24:23,725
I mean, that’s the depth of the pool that we’re we’re

1329
01:24:23,725 –> 01:24:27,565
in right now. I mean, I’m we’re I mean, I think we’re 300

1330
01:24:27,565 –> 01:24:31,345
episodes total into this podcast over the last two and a half years.

1331
01:24:32,205 –> 01:24:35,340
We’re like a 100 and we go at a 150 or a 100 60 shorts

1332
01:24:35,340 –> 01:24:38,719
episodes right now. We got a 123. This is episode over a 123.

1333
01:24:40,300 –> 01:24:43,100
And I still don’t I still don’t know what the answer to that question is.

1334
01:24:43,100 –> 01:24:46,940
What is the leader’s responsibility? You know? Well, it’s I mean, the and, just to

1335
01:24:46,940 –> 01:24:50,615
keep it to, like, the restaurant industry is, like, set up whoever you’re working with

1336
01:24:50,615 –> 01:24:54,155
or for success. So just to set up the person for success.

1337
01:24:54,535 –> 01:24:58,375
Right. Now there but there’s so many different, channels

1338
01:24:58,375 –> 01:25:01,895
that this can go I mean, what is success for

1339
01:25:01,895 –> 01:25:03,835
someone in the world of doom?

1340
01:25:05,280 –> 01:25:09,119
Right. Yeah. Well well, the baron. Right? What was success

1341
01:25:09,119 –> 01:25:12,420
for him versus what was success for his, his nephew

1342
01:25:12,719 –> 01:25:16,079
versus what was success for Paul versus what was success for the

1343
01:25:16,079 –> 01:25:19,465
Freeman, what was success for Duke Leto.

1344
01:25:20,645 –> 01:25:24,244
Jessica, we we haven’t even talked about the Ben Casarek because that’s we haven’t even

1345
01:25:24,244 –> 01:25:28,005
gone there. That’s a whole podcast episode in and of itself, but that’s a whole

1346
01:25:28,005 –> 01:25:31,385
conversation that can be had about feminism, female leadership,

1347
01:25:32,739 –> 01:25:35,800
female followership, like the shift that happens between,

1348
01:25:36,420 –> 01:25:40,260
the second book and the third book where she realizes that she has to take

1349
01:25:40,260 –> 01:25:43,880
a backseat to her own son and she intentionally does so.

1350
01:25:46,715 –> 01:25:48,974
I know that there are women who do that,

1351
01:25:51,114 –> 01:25:54,255
and I Is there a comment on charlatanism as well?

1352
01:25:56,315 –> 01:25:59,355
Well, okay. Frame frame that out for us. What what what do you mean? What

1353
01:25:59,355 –> 01:26:02,780
do you mean about charlatanism? Because I keep going back to

1354
01:26:03,640 –> 01:26:07,080
the Chris Knife scene. Okay. Yeah. It’s pure

1355
01:26:07,080 –> 01:26:10,600
chance, and it’s off of the lure of the

1356
01:26:10,600 –> 01:26:13,420
messiah Mhmm. And the Bene Gesserit

1357
01:26:15,025 –> 01:26:18,864
feeding into it. Right. Yeah. And not necessarily even, you

1358
01:26:18,864 –> 01:26:22,304
know, believing it. It’s just willing it to

1359
01:26:22,304 –> 01:26:25,920
happen. Right. Will willing it into existence. Yeah. Yes.

1360
01:26:26,560 –> 01:26:30,000
Well and then you see sort of Paul’s relation to the freeman when he

1361
01:26:30,000 –> 01:26:33,520
finally escapes the betrayal and and finally

1362
01:26:33,520 –> 01:26:37,360
escapes, you know, being assassinated, winds up out in the desert, and

1363
01:26:37,360 –> 01:26:41,185
now he’s with to go back to t, Lawrence, for just a minute, he’s with

1364
01:26:41,185 –> 01:26:44,645
these he’s with these he’s with the interstellar

1365
01:26:44,785 –> 01:26:48,545
version of nomadic Arabs, which is the image I had

1366
01:26:48,545 –> 01:26:52,190
in my head. And Herbert doesn’t describe

1367
01:26:52,190 –> 01:26:55,630
horses, but you can definitely like, you can see them, like, they’re

1368
01:26:55,630 –> 01:26:59,070
just they’re just massive unorganized, and and

1369
01:26:59,070 –> 01:27:02,750
that’s that’s probable not

1370
01:27:02,750 –> 01:27:06,395
probably. That’s not accurate. But the image you have in your head is this massive

1371
01:27:06,395 –> 01:27:10,074
unorganized people who just need a leader, and they’ll follow

1372
01:27:10,074 –> 01:27:13,454
behind this guy because he’s gonna bring them to the promised land.

1373
01:27:14,395 –> 01:27:17,755
And that then cycles back into the whole idea of to your point about

1374
01:27:17,755 –> 01:27:21,560
misunderstanding, is he really the guy, or was he just the guy that

1375
01:27:21,560 –> 01:27:25,400
was just standing there or the kid that was just standing there? Could

1376
01:27:25,400 –> 01:27:29,239
it have been anybody? Lot of

1377
01:27:29,239 –> 01:27:32,599
different complicated things inside of Doom, which is what makes it

1378
01:27:32,599 –> 01:27:36,155
worthwhile to read and which is why it’s been read for the last, gosh, well

1379
01:27:36,155 –> 01:27:39,835
over 50 years now. And it has, like I

1380
01:27:39,835 –> 01:27:42,414
said, laid the keel for, for world building.

1381
01:27:44,155 –> 01:27:47,835
Alright. Rounding the corner here. Can I jump on? You know, just

1382
01:27:47,835 –> 01:27:51,270
to, Ryan, I don’t know if you’ve seen the, the more

1383
01:27:51,270 –> 01:27:54,710
recent film, but one of the things that film

1384
01:27:54,710 –> 01:27:58,489
does pretty good job of is drawing attention

1385
01:27:58,550 –> 01:28:02,230
to the manipulation that that was taking place with

1386
01:28:02,230 –> 01:28:05,545
the with the Bene Gesserit and all of that, which is a whole, yeah, whole

1387
01:28:05,545 –> 01:28:08,985
other commentary on on sort of, you know, it’s

1388
01:28:08,985 –> 01:28:12,665
prophecy. Was this real? You know, what what is the role of

1389
01:28:12,665 –> 01:28:15,565
prophecy and all of that? But back to the earlier,

1390
01:28:16,344 –> 01:28:20,080
Hassane, your question around, you know, the the the role of a leader, the

1391
01:28:20,080 –> 01:28:23,920
purpose of a leader. You know, I do I think that I’d

1392
01:28:23,920 –> 01:28:27,219
be remiss if if we didn’t call out and underscore

1393
01:28:27,920 –> 01:28:31,600
just, I think, one of the most, you know, then bring it back to the

1394
01:28:31,600 –> 01:28:35,205
book, bring about some of the more blatant lessons of the book or

1395
01:28:35,205 –> 01:28:37,864
statements at least to the book. You know, that,

1396
01:28:38,965 –> 01:28:42,485
again, it maybe feel like an over an oversimplification, but I think the most important

1397
01:28:42,485 –> 01:28:46,260
things are the what is important for a leader is that which makes him

1398
01:28:46,260 –> 01:28:50,020
a leader. Right? His people. And so to Ryan’s point and your analogy

1399
01:28:50,020 –> 01:28:53,720
about the restaurant industry. Right? Setting someone else up for success,

1400
01:28:54,580 –> 01:28:58,040
doing your best by them to ensure that they are successful.

1401
01:28:58,725 –> 01:29:02,345
I really like that, Ryan. Like, that is a great little

1402
01:29:02,885 –> 01:29:06,665
analogous capture of the role of a leader on a one to one

1403
01:29:06,805 –> 01:29:10,485
individual level is to best take care of the

1404
01:29:10,485 –> 01:29:14,300
person beside you. And if you can do that on a on a group

1405
01:29:14,300 –> 01:29:18,060
scale, on a, on a nation scale, as, you

1406
01:29:18,060 –> 01:29:20,380
know, our protagonist does or at least,

1407
01:29:22,380 –> 01:29:25,360
is perceived to be doing, by the people,

1408
01:29:27,175 –> 01:29:30,155
then those are those are the leaders that are gonna be remembered.

1409
01:29:32,855 –> 01:29:36,695
Because, again, they’re living out some of the most important axioms, which

1410
01:29:36,695 –> 01:29:40,530
come back to the book that that survived at least

1411
01:29:40,530 –> 01:29:43,830
in some way, shape, or form 10000 years into the future. Right?

1412
01:29:44,050 –> 01:29:47,570
Right. Orange Catholic Bible as it’s referred to. The orange the

1413
01:29:47,570 –> 01:29:51,250
OC Bible. Yeah. Which by the way, when he fur when I

1414
01:29:51,250 –> 01:29:54,915
first read that, when it when it first, like, dropped into the narrative, I thought,

1415
01:29:54,915 –> 01:29:57,494
wait. What? I guess I can read it again.

1416
01:29:59,074 –> 01:30:01,974
Kinda it kinda caught me by, kinda caught me by surprise.

1417
01:30:04,195 –> 01:30:07,635
Okay. Right in the corner here, solutions to problems. Right?

1418
01:30:07,635 –> 01:30:11,390
So we live in a time,

1419
01:30:11,530 –> 01:30:13,690
and this is one of the things that I’ve been talking about on this podcast

1420
01:30:13,690 –> 01:30:15,790
this year, Dan. This is the theme of this year,

1421
01:30:17,610 –> 01:30:21,370
driven by the and the theme well, the theme of the podcast this year has

1422
01:30:21,370 –> 01:30:25,115
been, let’s focus on solutions to problems, because we spend

1423
01:30:25,115 –> 01:30:28,635
a lot of time talking about problems. We are in the midst, I

1424
01:30:28,635 –> 01:30:32,315
fundamentally believe of the 4th turning. If you know

1425
01:30:32,315 –> 01:30:35,375
about that, that generational theory model,

1426
01:30:36,390 –> 01:30:39,910
from William Strauss and Neil Howe, there are

1427
01:30:39,910 –> 01:30:43,610
4 cycles in history, that that

1428
01:30:43,910 –> 01:30:47,590
coincide with the seasons of life. Right? So you have

1429
01:30:47,590 –> 01:30:51,415
spring, summer, fall, and winter. And you have generations that

1430
01:30:51,415 –> 01:30:55,175
are inside of each one of those seasons over the course of an 80 year

1431
01:30:55,175 –> 01:30:58,715
cycle who experience all these things roughly together.

1432
01:30:58,855 –> 01:31:02,455
And so, currently in our

1433
01:31:02,455 –> 01:31:06,280
world, and you can research this theory, but currently in our world,

1434
01:31:06,280 –> 01:31:10,040
we have the baby boomers. We have gen xers. We

1435
01:31:10,040 –> 01:31:13,800
have the millennials, and we have gen zers. Right? Those are the 4 that

1436
01:31:13,800 –> 01:31:17,020
are going through the the current secular cycle,

1437
01:31:17,400 –> 01:31:21,165
which, according to Strauss and Howe in their theory

1438
01:31:21,165 –> 01:31:24,304
of cycle in history and of generations in history,

1439
01:31:25,005 –> 01:31:28,685
that that cyclical end is either coming

1440
01:31:28,685 –> 01:31:32,445
up by the end of 20 by beginning

1441
01:31:32,445 –> 01:31:36,020
of 2030 or, by the end of

1442
01:31:36,020 –> 01:31:39,320
2040. Just depends sort of where the where we’re at with that.

1443
01:31:41,700 –> 01:31:45,540
And I look at the experiences that I’ve had in

1444
01:31:45,540 –> 01:31:49,285
my career, and I I look at the chaos that has occurred

1445
01:31:49,285 –> 01:31:52,825
ever since September 11th in our country, moral chaos,

1446
01:31:53,285 –> 01:31:56,905
financial chaos. We we we as of this recording,

1447
01:31:57,205 –> 01:32:00,725
there’s a hurricane that’s hitting Florida. Right? Because

1448
01:32:00,725 –> 01:32:04,550
hurricane in a long, long time. Right? And I’m not quite

1449
01:32:04,550 –> 01:32:08,250
sure that we are going to have the competency

1450
01:32:08,309 –> 01:32:11,670
at the federal government level that we would have had 25 or 30 years ago

1451
01:32:11,670 –> 01:32:15,449
to address that issue. And there’s always crises

1452
01:32:15,510 –> 01:32:19,325
of competencies when you’re on the back end of a historical cycle, when you’re

1453
01:32:19,325 –> 01:32:22,864
in a historical winter, which I think is what America is in now.

1454
01:32:23,405 –> 01:32:25,265
I, so I say all that to say this

1455
01:32:27,405 –> 01:32:31,030
winter always turns into spring. And then my concern, and one of the

1456
01:32:31,030 –> 01:32:33,750
reasons why I do this podcast is that if you’ve been in winter for so

1457
01:32:33,750 –> 01:32:37,350
long and you’ve just been in survival mode when spring shows up, a, you don’t

1458
01:32:37,350 –> 01:32:40,150
believe it and b, you wreck it. So,

1459
01:32:42,155 –> 01:32:45,275
I have I one of the things we’ve we’ve really focused on this year has

1460
01:32:45,275 –> 01:32:48,635
been how do these books set us up for the

1461
01:32:48,635 –> 01:32:52,475
springtime that is coming? I do believe we are at the end of a

1462
01:32:52,475 –> 01:32:56,315
winter chaos cycle in America in particular and in the West in

1463
01:32:56,315 –> 01:32:59,950
general. I do believe things are coalescing and reshaping,

1464
01:33:00,970 –> 01:33:04,110
politically, socially, morally, ethically.

1465
01:33:04,730 –> 01:33:08,570
The core things that make us human aren’t being reshaped. It’s just how we

1466
01:33:08,570 –> 01:33:12,270
react and respond to them that is being reshaped and the tools that we’re using.

1467
01:33:12,815 –> 01:33:16,175
But spring is coming. It invariably always

1468
01:33:16,175 –> 01:33:19,534
does. There is a high time coming. It’s not just all

1469
01:33:19,534 –> 01:33:23,375
low. And I look at a book like Dune. Now

1470
01:33:23,375 –> 01:33:27,060
this is where this ties in. I look at a book like Dune and a

1471
01:33:27,060 –> 01:33:30,900
messiah character or a messiah concept is always a

1472
01:33:30,900 –> 01:33:34,739
time is a concept for a high time rather than a chaotic time.

1473
01:33:34,739 –> 01:33:38,420
A messiah can come out of chaos, but invariably, a messiah has to exist in

1474
01:33:38,420 –> 01:33:42,235
the spring, maybe a summer. Fall is usually a time of

1475
01:33:42,235 –> 01:33:45,295
unraveling. This is why,

1476
01:33:46,074 –> 01:33:48,635
and you can see this actually, the great show back in the day that was

1477
01:33:48,635 –> 01:33:52,315
on ABC, NYPD Blue. I’m actually, like, walk wandering through

1478
01:33:52,315 –> 01:33:56,110
that right now and watching all those seasons, and it is the perfect unraveling

1479
01:33:56,110 –> 01:33:59,870
show. It’s perfect. We’re, like, in America where

1480
01:33:59,870 –> 01:34:03,310
we spent 25 years trying to figure out why we were

1481
01:34:03,310 –> 01:34:06,830
unraveling, and now we’re unraveled and we’re we’re trying to figure out how to get

1482
01:34:06,830 –> 01:34:10,525
it all back together. But a messiah doesn’t come along in a fall. A

1483
01:34:10,525 –> 01:34:14,284
messiah usually comes along in a in a winter, a chaotic period, or an

1484
01:34:14,284 –> 01:34:16,145
insurgent, right, does.

1485
01:34:18,445 –> 01:34:21,645
But then they build in the spring, and then they become a gatekeeper, and then

1486
01:34:21,645 –> 01:34:25,380
they unravel. Institutions unravel. People unravel. The whole thing falls

1487
01:34:25,380 –> 01:34:27,800
apart, and then you’re back to where you back to where you started.

1488
01:34:29,300 –> 01:34:33,080
And we’re there right on time, I think, socially and and morally and ethically.

1489
01:34:35,945 –> 01:34:39,304
Insurgents take over the board, right, when they create new

1490
01:34:39,304 –> 01:34:42,905
systems. Right? And I’m seeing a bunch of insurgents floating around these

1491
01:34:42,905 –> 01:34:46,664
days in our time. Politics is the biggest place where we see this. You

1492
01:34:46,664 –> 01:34:49,790
know, RFK Junior would be an insurgent. Right?

1493
01:34:50,570 –> 01:34:54,409
Or Chelsea Gabbard would be an insurgent. Right? By the way, those

1494
01:34:54,409 –> 01:34:58,110
are 2 people that if their party had picked them to run for presidency

1495
01:34:58,250 –> 01:35:02,094
in our time, I think they probably would have beaten Donald Trump. I think

1496
01:35:02,094 –> 01:35:05,614
that’s a ticket that beats Donald Trump. But because the Democrat Party is

1497
01:35:05,614 –> 01:35:09,135
unraveling, they can’t pick that person. They they can’t pick those

1498
01:35:09,135 –> 01:35:12,815
people. Right? And so you are not

1499
01:35:12,815 –> 01:35:16,094
unraveling. It’s in chaos. It’s an internal chaos. It long since unraveled, but it’s an

1500
01:35:16,094 –> 01:35:19,619
internal chaos. By the way, just like the Republican party internal chaos.

1501
01:35:19,679 –> 01:35:23,040
Right? My point in saying all this is

1502
01:35:23,040 –> 01:35:26,800
this, I

1503
01:35:26,800 –> 01:35:30,400
started off this podcast by saying that there’s deserts everywhere, even in your

1504
01:35:30,400 –> 01:35:33,935
head. And deserts are a place, weirdly enough, of heat and

1505
01:35:33,935 –> 01:35:37,715
light, but they are also a place of winter. They are arid.

1506
01:35:38,895 –> 01:35:42,655
There’s nothing there. In thinking about Dune

1507
01:35:42,655 –> 01:35:46,320
and in thinking about leadership, How can leaders take

1508
01:35:46,320 –> 01:35:50,159
lessons? This is a question for both of you. How can leaders take questions or

1509
01:35:50,159 –> 01:35:53,760
take inspiration and take understanding from doing to

1510
01:35:53,760 –> 01:35:56,340
build towards the next

1511
01:35:57,435 –> 01:36:01,275
second spring? What are the solutions to the

1512
01:36:01,275 –> 01:36:04,955
problems that leadership is having right now that we’ll be able to

1513
01:36:04,955 –> 01:36:08,415
build on on the other side of, you know, 2030,

1514
01:36:08,715 –> 01:36:11,435
right, which is again and that’s when I think it’s gonna be over. Like, on

1515
01:36:11,435 –> 01:36:14,700
the other side of 2030 or even further out on the other side of 2040.

1516
01:36:15,000 –> 01:36:18,120
What do leaders need to do? What do they need to take from doing to

1517
01:36:18,120 –> 01:36:19,820
start building solutions to problems?

1518
01:36:23,160 –> 01:36:27,000
I look at, you say, insurgents. I I look

1519
01:36:27,000 –> 01:36:30,725
at, the

1520
01:36:30,865 –> 01:36:34,645
how immigration has played out, especially in England and United States.

1521
01:36:35,905 –> 01:36:39,025
And if I just

1522
01:36:39,665 –> 01:36:43,365
if you have something that is desirable and people want,

1523
01:36:43,730 –> 01:36:47,409
they’re probably going to keep coming to try and

1524
01:36:47,409 –> 01:36:50,710
get it until they’re forced to stop.

1525
01:36:51,650 –> 01:36:55,330
Seems to be what kind of the situation is in

1526
01:36:55,330 –> 01:36:58,755
in in that context I just mentioned of immigration. So

1527
01:36:58,995 –> 01:37:02,835
Mhmm. I mean, yeah, it’s there’s a target

1528
01:37:02,835 –> 01:37:06,135
on your back if you’re at the top of the mountain. That’s it. Yeah.

1529
01:37:09,235 –> 01:37:13,050
Hasan, I think it I think at a meta level

1530
01:37:13,290 –> 01:37:16,810
Mhmm. With respect to Dune, I think it does come back

1531
01:37:16,810 –> 01:37:20,410
to, the most important

1532
01:37:20,410 –> 01:37:24,170
lesson from the book or at least the author’s intended most important lesson

1533
01:37:24,170 –> 01:37:26,810
from the book and one that I didn’t necessarily take from it when I heard

1534
01:37:26,810 –> 01:37:30,625
Schwed it at 14, which the, which is

1535
01:37:30,625 –> 01:37:34,385
the danger of following overly charismatic leaders, which I think

1536
01:37:34,385 –> 01:37:37,665
we’ve got a lot of people right now, not to get overly political in this

1537
01:37:37,665 –> 01:37:41,425
country, following someone that is at least considered by some

1538
01:37:41,425 –> 01:37:45,250
to be charismatic, and mindlessly doing so.

1539
01:37:45,790 –> 01:37:49,550
And, I’ll leave that there. Mhmm. Yeah. Leave

1540
01:37:49,550 –> 01:37:53,010
that. Put a pin in there. But but I do think

1541
01:37:53,390 –> 01:37:57,090
it also reflects back to the importance of thinking for

1542
01:37:58,015 –> 01:38:01,375
ourselves and keeping ourselves sharp. And again, we talked

1543
01:38:01,375 –> 01:38:04,975
about, you know, not

1544
01:38:04,975 –> 01:38:08,255
choosing kind of the safe, clear path of doing nothing and just kind of following

1545
01:38:08,655 –> 01:38:12,115
calling following the flow, but but keeping our edge as leaders.

1546
01:38:12,740 –> 01:38:16,260
But also, continuing to think for

1547
01:38:16,260 –> 01:38:18,760
ourselves and

1548
01:38:20,180 –> 01:38:24,020
and challenge the current thinking that’s out there, which as cliche as

1549
01:38:24,020 –> 01:38:26,760
that sounds and as often as as it is said,

1550
01:38:27,925 –> 01:38:31,605
of course, it’s it’s not done and we’re all guilty of of of getting

1551
01:38:31,605 –> 01:38:34,905
too comfortable and, and just kinda throwing our hands up

1552
01:38:35,525 –> 01:38:37,785
and and, like, I’m not even gonna engage.

1553
01:38:39,619 –> 01:38:43,300
You know, bringing it back to the book. One of the things that

1554
01:38:43,300 –> 01:38:46,980
is probably one of the reasons Elon Musk liked the book apparently, or at least

1555
01:38:46,980 –> 01:38:50,820
I’m sold is that, there’s a line that says something

1556
01:38:50,820 –> 01:38:54,005
to the effect of, You could say that Waddib,

1557
01:38:54,225 –> 01:38:57,824
Paul, learned quickly because

1558
01:38:57,824 –> 01:39:01,265
his first teaching or learning was in the act of

1559
01:39:01,265 –> 01:39:05,025
learning. And I, of course, I think the

1560
01:39:05,025 –> 01:39:08,680
lesson there is that leadership requires effective thinking, which

1561
01:39:08,680 –> 01:39:10,140
requires the effective,

1562
01:39:12,680 –> 01:39:16,360
consuming of knowledge and distillation of it very quickly. And

1563
01:39:16,360 –> 01:39:20,040
coming from a business school environment, which is where I’m coming from, having gone to

1564
01:39:20,040 –> 01:39:22,805
business school and then taught in business school, that’s like, that’s the whole thing in

1565
01:39:22,805 –> 01:39:26,565
business school. It’s like, you know, reading a business case, sifting through all the

1566
01:39:26,565 –> 01:39:29,945
crap, and quickly getting to the bottom line.

1567
01:39:30,325 –> 01:39:33,860
But it’s, also reinforces the common

1568
01:39:33,860 –> 01:39:37,699
phrase, which we we as parents try to have tried to instill in our daughters,

1569
01:39:37,699 –> 01:39:41,460
which is, you know, leaders are readers. Mhmm. And and

1570
01:39:41,460 –> 01:39:45,300
the importance there is you’re learning to think for yourself, consume information. Yes.

1571
01:39:45,300 –> 01:39:48,915
And then think for yourself, on that. And

1572
01:39:49,775 –> 01:39:52,915
that is also, if done

1573
01:39:53,215 –> 01:39:56,195
frequently, constantly, effectively,

1574
01:39:57,135 –> 01:40:00,780
keep us, you know, on track with respect to the

1575
01:40:00,780 –> 01:40:04,080
important lessons that we learned from the past seasons.

1576
01:40:04,540 –> 01:40:07,980
So it’s not to hopefully, repeat

1577
01:40:07,980 –> 01:40:11,120
them, as well, which is why I’ve

1578
01:40:12,380 –> 01:40:16,035
continued to come back to and wish that I had studied history as a

1579
01:40:16,035 –> 01:40:19,875
major in undergrad, which has of as in as helpful as anything that

1580
01:40:19,875 –> 01:40:22,695
would be and as practical, a,

1581
01:40:23,795 –> 01:40:27,554
a subject area, more so than a

1582
01:40:27,554 –> 01:40:31,250
lot. Yeah. Yeah. One more thing to add

1583
01:40:31,250 –> 01:40:34,710
to my, not offering any solution with their target on your back,

1584
01:40:36,210 –> 01:40:39,809
is yeah. For I mean, foresight, the thing that you say,

1585
01:40:39,809 –> 01:40:42,610
Hassan, when people are like, we have to tear it down, tear it down. Well,

1586
01:40:42,610 –> 01:40:46,355
what do you gotta put in its place? Mhmm. What is the solution

1587
01:40:46,415 –> 01:40:50,095
to the, you know, to the to the issue that you’re having? You

1588
01:40:50,095 –> 01:40:52,595
know? Mhmm. Yeah. There there has to be

1589
01:40:54,015 –> 01:40:57,615
You can’t just solve chaos with chaos. Correct. Right.

1590
01:40:57,615 –> 01:41:01,400
Exactly. And sowing

1591
01:41:01,460 –> 01:41:05,300
chaos or oh, I’m gonna use religious

1592
01:41:05,300 –> 01:41:08,680
language here. Sowing chaos for the remission of sins,

1593
01:41:08,820 –> 01:41:12,580
past sins, doesn’t actually build for your

1594
01:41:12,580 –> 01:41:16,085
future. It doesn’t actually build for the next

1595
01:41:16,085 –> 01:41:17,945
thing. Not unless

1596
01:41:19,605 –> 01:41:23,445
well, not unless you’re a messiah that can sort of give out

1597
01:41:23,445 –> 01:41:27,060
absolute absolution. Are you living in the

1598
01:41:27,060 –> 01:41:30,739
past otherwise? Right. Exactly. You’re just living in the past with us, which is which

1599
01:41:30,739 –> 01:41:34,340
is why I don’t want you and I have talked about this before, Ryan, but,

1600
01:41:34,340 –> 01:41:38,100
like, I I don’t want things torn down. I want things to stay up. Let’s

1601
01:41:38,100 –> 01:41:40,980
build on top of them. Right? Let’s let’s,

1602
01:41:42,395 –> 01:41:45,935
let’s use those those things, those concepts, those ideas.

1603
01:41:46,635 –> 01:41:50,235
They are saving those statues in those buildings to build

1604
01:41:50,235 –> 01:41:53,755
the next thing, to go in the

1605
01:41:53,755 –> 01:41:57,055
next space. But again, that’s springtime thinking.

1606
01:41:57,829 –> 01:42:01,670
And I do believe that. Well, as I said before,

1607
01:42:01,670 –> 01:42:05,269
my long run up to my question, I do believe spring is coming. And I

1608
01:42:05,269 –> 01:42:08,730
think it’s time, long past time for us to stop talking about the problems

1609
01:42:09,510 –> 01:42:13,245
and to begin to at least propose, even if they

1610
01:42:13,245 –> 01:42:16,705
are radical sounding, propose some solutions

1611
01:42:17,885 –> 01:42:21,585
to whatever the problems are we believe we are having.

1612
01:42:22,765 –> 01:42:26,219
All right. That is a high note. It is a high note. And I’m gonna

1613
01:42:26,219 –> 01:42:28,840
go out on it. Much much more much more,

1614
01:42:29,940 –> 01:42:33,239
catchy than Game of Thrones winter is coming.

1615
01:42:34,100 –> 01:42:37,719
I like that spring is coming. And also bring you back to the dark night.

1616
01:42:37,780 –> 01:42:41,594
Mhmm. Night is darkest just before the dawn. Spring is coming. Right? So

1617
01:42:41,594 –> 01:42:45,195
that’s I like that. So optimistic. I feel

1618
01:42:45,195 –> 01:42:48,494
great. Oh, I’m I’m I’m pragmatically optimistic. Absolutely.

1619
01:42:50,440 –> 01:42:54,139
I would like to thank both Dan Bental and Ryan Stout

1620
01:42:54,199 –> 01:42:57,559
for joining me today on the Leadership Lessons from the Great Books

1621
01:42:57,559 –> 01:43:00,940
podcast. And with that, well,

1622
01:43:01,971 –> 01:43:05,571
we’re out. Have a beautiful day. Thank you so

1623
01:43:05,571 –> 01:43:08,311
much, Jason. Brian? Dan, pleasure.