A Farewell to Arms by Ernest Hemingway w/Jesan Sorrells & Libby Unger

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Beautiful. All right. Leadership

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Lessons from the Great Books podcast, episode

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number 174 with

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Libby Unger. A Farewell to Arms

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in 3, 2, 1.

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Hello, my name is Jesan Sorrells,

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and this is. Is the Leadership Lessons from the Great Books

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podcast, episode number 1

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74. The

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most famous quote from the book that

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we are going to discuss today

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is as follows. And you can follow along with

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me if you have a copy of the book. You’ll. You’ll know what I’m.

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What I’m quoting here when I, when I get through this, and I

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quote, if people bring so much courage to this

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world, the world has to kill them to break them.

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So of course it kills them. The world breaks everyone.

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And afterward, many are strong at the broken places.

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But those that will not break, it kills. It

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kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave. Impartially,

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if you are none of these, you can be sure it will kill you, too.

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But there will be no special hurry.

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Close quote. The last

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few weeks on the show, if you’ve been following along the last few

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episodes, we have been discussing with various guests

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war, war making. And we’ve been attempting

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to pull apart the psychology of the people who we ask

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to fight wars, particularly the psychology of the

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population that we ask to fight a lot of our wars.

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The psychology of young men. This

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is a worthwhile pursuit, as the author Sebastian

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Younger made a note of in his book War, because

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we will not get anywhere close to peace on earth and goodwill towards

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men as we come up to the holiday season without some

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acknowledgment of the violence inherent in the very

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act that makes nations and. And people, and even

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nation states. Now, at

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the end of our cycle here, before we go into the holiday

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season and cover our holiday books, we have come to

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the fictionalized portion through the work of

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our author today.

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Now, he didn’t actually fight in the war he wrote about.

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Instead, he was part and parcel of a generation of young men

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who. Who were broken by the war in which he served, by

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what they experienced in the war and by the ways in

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which the stability of the old European

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aristocratic sense was shattered by the

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cataclysm of a war that could probably have

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been avoided. Today, as

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we close on our yearly meditations,

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we the Art of War and its Aftermaths, we

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will discuss the themes of A Farewell to

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Arms by Ernest Hemingway.

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Leaders. The world breaks all of us

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when and if we let it.

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And today on our show, we will be joined once

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again by Libby Unger, back from

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episode number 148 where we discuss Tender is the Night

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by that other giant on the Mount Rushmore of authors of the lost generation,

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F. Scott Fitzgerald. How you doing, Libby? How’s it going?

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Great. Fantastic to see you and be back.

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Yeah, good to see you. Good to see you back. It’s been a little bit,

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but we’re going to go ahead and and jump into jump into A

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Farewell to A Farewell to Arms.

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So when we look at this book and the version that I have

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is is the Hemingway Library edition

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published by Simon and Schuster. By the way, Farewell to Arms

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is now in the public domain. So you can go get a

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go go download it off Epub or

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oh gosh, Project Gutenberg or any of those other any of those open

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source deals Open source Open source

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sources for for books. Because

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you know, it was published in the, in the 1920s and initially

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published in the 1920s and and it has now gone into, it has now gone

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into public public domain. So again, the version that

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I have has a, has an introduction and a forward

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forward by Patrick Hemingway, an introduction by Sean Hemingway.

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And then there’s the novel. And then what makes this very interesting

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is that there are early drafts, alternate endings and a list of titles

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that are. That’s in the back. And so the version that I have is

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rich with a lot of extra information and extra

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knowledge that that Ernest Hemingway brought to

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brought to his his writing. And we got a chance to look at his,

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look at his work. So when you open up the

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book, you get into chapter one and chapter one sets the scene,

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Chapter one, book one sets the scene for where we are.

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With Hemingway’s writing. And one of the things that you,

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that definitely jumps out to me about this book is

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that he sets the setting

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for what we are about to do in a very rich and descriptive

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fashion. He describes the summer

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of the year, the plane, the village that he was living in.

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He describes, you know, the big guns in the, that were being drawn on

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motor cars going to the front. Of course,

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Hemingway served in the, in

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the, the emergency medical Corps basically for the Italian army

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during during World War I and was an ambulance

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driver. Okay. During that time. And so it’s very much

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written from the perspective of an individual who was a non

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combatant and yet was asked to

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pick up the pieces after combat was over.

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And so you get a sense not only of

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the war itself and how it is conducted in a way that you

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don’t get with John Keegan’s First World War. Right.

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Matter of fact, Keegan probably would have put Hemingway’s work in A Farewell to

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Arms, in with Eric Remarque and All Quiet on the Western

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Front and other writers who he would probably

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say, because they were not historians and they were

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people on the ground, they had a very

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subjective look, you know, at the war. They weren’t

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objectively focused. It is definitely subjective. I mean, Hemingway,

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Hemingway’s cynicalness, Hemingway cynicism, Hemingway,

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Hemingway’s bitterness, Hemingway’s alcoholism.

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All of this comes through, you know, in the beginning

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part of. Of A Farewell to Arms.

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And it sets the tone for where the book is going to be

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headed as he, you know, suffers an injury

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due to a. Due to a shelling that occurs

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and then goes into a hospital situation and of course meets

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the nurse. Well, he meets the nurse early Catherine Barkley,

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but he meets the nurse, falls in love. All of these themes

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are set up in the first three chapters of

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Farewell to Arms. And it is a master class

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in setting the tone for a novel

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as you go forward. As a matter of fact, I’ll just read very

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briefly something that jumped out to me in. In

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chapter two. Right. So just very briefly here. The next year, there were

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many victories. The mountain that was beyond the valley and the hillside where

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the chestnut forest grew was captured. And there were victories beyond the plain

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on the plateau to the south. And we crossed the river in August and lived

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in a house in Gorigia that had a fountain and many thick shady trees

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and a walled garden. And it was starry of vine purpl the side of the

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house. That’s just one sentence. Okay, like

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Hemingway is known for having short, pithy sentences, and that definitely is in

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this book. But the descriptors are written in that long,

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flowing. Late 19th

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century prose that’s designed, that was

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designed to appeal to an audience that was not

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cinematic. Yet cinema hadn’t really

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developed as a thing and of course TV didn’t exist and there was no

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social media. So we weren’t talking about short attention span theater folks here.

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Hemingway was writing for.

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The main character in A Farewell to Arms. Frederick Henry is

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characteristic, or was characteristic of many young men of Hemingway’s generation who fought

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in World War I. He does not want to be found derelict in

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doing his duty. He doesn’t really have the strength of will to say

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no to his duty either. And that definitely

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comes through in the first book. Nor does he find himself

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willing or able to say no to the forces that compel him. And that’s where

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the cynicism comes in. Katherine Barkley, the English nurse

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and love interest, is not. Is in the Same cultural

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and psychological situation, but she’s weirdly free

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in ways that Frederick is not. And that definitely

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comes through. Frederick has little interest in the

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war, as I already said, as it is being conducted by the generals and

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being reported on in the newspaper. This lack of interest reflects the

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facts of war changing for the people waging it on the ground versus those who

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conduct the movements of the people from the rear or

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from the parliament. His boredom, which

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also comes through in the very first chapter, I mean, Frederick Henry as

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a stand in for Ernest Hemingway, is bored. He’s bored with the war.

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He’s bored with people getting blown up. He’s bored with the reporting.

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He’s bored with going and seeing, pardon my use of the term, but

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seeing the whores in Italy. He’s bored with the drinking, he’s

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bored with the whole thing. Right? And all

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that boredom comes to a head when again he meets

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Catherine after being forced into inaction by a shrapnel injury

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from a trench bombing. One

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which, by the way, he gets a medal even though he didn’t really do

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anything. And this is the

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cynicism, this is the thing that undergirds A Farewell to

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Arms and undergirds the approach to A Farewell

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to Arms. And so I guess that sets enough of the tone to where we

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could start having a conversation here with Libby.

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So. And by the way, this is one of the books that she really wanted

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to get on the show and talk with us about, expressed a lot of interest.

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In, in dissecting this and breaking this down. So. So Libby, I guess maybe

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our first question to you, or my first question for you to sort of kick

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us off here and move this from a monologue to a dialogue

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is for you. What was the most interesting theme

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out of A Farewell to Arms?

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Thank you. And you know, Hemingway,

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I love just kind of as I, I did F.

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Scott’s Fitzgerald, but for different reasons. And he

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always describes as human nature.

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And reality as it is, not as we wish it were,

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but not in a cynicism way, but as you kind of said, in

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a theatrical way. And the,

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the theme that resonated the most

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was kind of that meaninglessness and brutality of war

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that, you know, the front lines and with that

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those on the front lines see but,

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you know, feel they have no way to escape. And then those

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kind of in charged and far removed from

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the. The brutality of war make it

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appear to be something that should be

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celebrated and honored. And the,

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the breadth of space between.

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Those leading the war and those actually at the front lines.

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And that feels Very resonant, you

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know, with life today.

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That many of us started to see with great

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clarity beginning in around 2020.

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Yeah, yeah, I would agree. I think that.

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Well, I mean, we, we kicked off our whole

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coverage this, this sort of cycle with John Keegan’s the First

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World War. And I am consistently,

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I’ve said this before on the show, I’m consistently fascinated by World

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War I because I think it sets the template

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for a lot of the modern sort of, and even postmodern.

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Ways in which we’ve structured the world. And I think we’re, we’re transitioning

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out of that, going through. We’re going through a once every 80 year transition, which

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is also once every 100 year transition. And so we’re going to go into something

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new. And World War I represented the breakpoint in

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my brain between the old world, particularly the old

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world of the Western aristocratic colonial world, which finally

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fully collapsed at the end of World War II. But that was

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the first real shock to the system. Right? And it

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set up this idea that.

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In order to be a soldier at war, you had to be somewhat cynical, right,

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about. What was

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happening in war or that the people

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who were in the rear, who were claiming that this war was being

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fought with honor were in reality, you know, engaged in some other

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political shenanigans. Right. It also set up

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for me, I loved it, how you talked about the breadth of space

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right, between those at the front and those in the rear, and of

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course, the lack of understanding that civilians have

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for war. So a lot of this,

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a lot of the themes that we live with in

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2025, well over 100 years later

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now, I mean, they’re just der. They’re just the things that we understand,

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they’re just, they’re just sauce for the goose. And Hemingway,

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along with Fitzgerald and John Dos Passos and Ford Maddox

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Ford, we covered Parade’s End, you and I did,

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you know, and yes, to a certain degree, Virginia Woolf and Gertrude

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Stein, you know, those, those authors as well, laid

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the foundation for how we think about the modern world. And so World War I

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is an incredibly impactful war that gets almost no

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play. And Hemingway was right. I mean, he was right

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in there with it. Like he was. So, I mean, it was, it was a.

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It was a crucible in crucible act for him at the age of 18,

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to go off and, and, and participate in a war.

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By the way, the United States hadn’t yet, you know, declared war on Germany. So

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he wasn’t fighting for the United States. He was going off like A lot of

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Americans did. And either fighting in Canada or fighting with the Canadian

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military, or fighting with the British military, or in his case, driving for the

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Italians.

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Yeah, go ahead. You had a thought. Why? Well, why do you think World War

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I doesn’t get the play?

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Well. I think it’s. I think it’s really

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complicated and because that’s always

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usually get out. And it’s also very

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simple. So the media capture

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that we have in this country is around World War II

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because for people

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who are more progressively minded, World War II is a

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cleaner war. And for people who

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00:16:41,900 –> 00:16:45,700
are more conservative minded, World War II is a cleaner war. But

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World War I was a war of aristocrats and

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colonialists, people who

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were monarchists. It was the. The end of the old

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school class system in Europe. Well, I shouldn’t say

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end of it, but the transformation of that into something more modern.

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It is also a war that. Where the

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first parts of industrialization. We talked a little bit about this with Tom Libby.

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In one of our episodes, but the first parts of industrialization really

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came to the forefront. And there was no way to make that,

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at least from an American’s mind, there’s no way to make that honorable. Plus,

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America entered the war late, so it’s not part of our national

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mythology. We weren’t attacked except by

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U boat. U boat warfare that the Germans engaged in.

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But the Germans never, like, they didn’t try to blow up, you know, the Statue

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of Liberty, you know, in or. Or Ellis

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Island. Right. They weren’t, they weren’t. They weren’t aggressive the way the Japanese were

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at the end of World War II. Yeah. So I think World War

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II has everything, regardless of which political side you’re

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on. And so I think it presents a much

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cleaner narrative than World War I. I think you’re right about

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the narrative side of it, that it’s a clear,

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crisper narrative. World War II

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around good, bad, you know,

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modern enemy versus, you know,

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historic enemies that are less.

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Around the aristocrats and, you know, and colonialists,

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although they’re trying to bring that narrative back now.

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But there were many. I mean, a lot of Americans

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died in World War I. And, you know, and

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it was basically suicide that we were sending.

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Sending them into with that trench warfare.

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So maybe it was that we didn’t have the

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technologies because the technology didn’t. You know, the reason we were doing trench

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00:18:53,430 –> 00:18:57,230
warfare was because, you know, our

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offensive technology didn’t align with what

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the defensive technologies were. And so we weren’t coming out with

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you as masters from A global

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perspective. I was also wondering if

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some of it might just have to do with, you know, just generate, you know,

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00:19:16,270 –> 00:19:19,990
generational knowledge, and we can only go back one

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or two generations before we don’t have anyone who lived it, who

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00:19:23,670 –> 00:19:27,430
could speak about it. You know, so that kind of

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00:19:27,430 –> 00:19:30,510
gets lost in history. But I do think the narrative piece is.

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00:19:30,990 –> 00:19:34,790
Is. Is. Is easier with good and

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00:19:34,790 –> 00:19:38,510
bad in World War II. Plus we add more television

305
00:19:39,310 –> 00:19:41,710
that could be used to shape the message.

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That we wanted. Right.

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00:19:47,450 –> 00:19:50,890
So I think that’s probably a piece of it, but, yeah,

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00:19:51,050 –> 00:19:54,690
anyway. Well, and I also think.

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I also. I. I did want to touch on your

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cynicism. I don’t know that it’s about cynicism of war. I think it’s

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skepticism of war. And we’re seeing that.

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Play out today in. In great

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00:20:10,920 –> 00:20:14,360
detail. And I think it has to do

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with the fact that the narratives can’t be controlled anymore.

315
00:20:18,600 –> 00:20:22,280
And we can see. We have

316
00:20:22,360 –> 00:20:26,040
visibility to that. What the front lines are seeing

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00:20:26,600 –> 00:20:29,880
around the wastefulness and meaningless.

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00:20:30,200 –> 00:20:32,600
Meaninglessness of war.

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We weren’t able to see that in as quite as rapid,

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00:20:38,230 –> 00:20:41,510
as pervasively in detail as we are today.

321
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So I would.

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00:20:46,870 –> 00:20:50,590
So this leads to something bad is not in our. In our.

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00:20:50,590 –> 00:20:54,350
In our notes here, but it is. It is a door that I

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00:20:54,350 –> 00:20:57,630
want to open with you. Okay. I want to ask you this question. So Tom

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00:20:57,630 –> 00:21:00,710
and I were talking about this in our episode

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00:21:01,190 –> 00:21:03,740
170. It was 173.

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00:21:05,260 –> 00:21:08,860
Yeah. The last episode for this one. Yeah. In the Earth is All that Lasts,

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00:21:08,860 –> 00:21:12,420
which is about the. The tribal war. Tribal warfare that

329
00:21:12,420 –> 00:21:15,860
occurred between the United States cavalry and the Lakota

330
00:21:15,860 –> 00:21:19,340
tribes in the. In the American West. Right. And

331
00:21:20,540 –> 00:21:24,220
the idea. And we talked a little bit about this, but technology.

332
00:21:24,620 –> 00:21:28,060
Right. So technology of. The technology

333
00:21:28,300 –> 00:21:31,820
of the Gatling gun. Right.

334
00:21:34,220 –> 00:21:37,740
Basically allowed the U. S. Cavalry

335
00:21:38,060 –> 00:21:41,540
to. Not to put too fine a point on it, but kill a lot of

336
00:21:41,540 –> 00:21:45,140
tribal warriors. Right. It also

337
00:21:45,140 –> 00:21:47,660
allowed that technology allowed

338
00:21:48,380 –> 00:21:52,140
northerners to kill a lot of southerners in the American Civil War, by the

339
00:21:52,140 –> 00:21:55,660
way, a war that no one in Europe. I would say no one. Very few

340
00:21:55,660 –> 00:21:58,980
folks in Europe paid any close attention to. Even though if you look at the

341
00:21:58,980 –> 00:22:01,660
history of the Civil War, you look at how the Civil War was fought, it

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00:22:01,660 –> 00:22:05,340
was sort of a proto setup for everything that happened later on in

343
00:22:05,340 –> 00:22:08,820
World War I. But anyway,

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00:22:09,460 –> 00:22:12,500
the Europeans thought that they had to corner on warfare. We were just a bunch

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00:22:12,500 –> 00:22:16,300
of provincial Americans that were fighting war that didn’t. They didn’t care about. Okay, that’s

346
00:22:16,300 –> 00:22:20,100
fine. No no, no, this is. That’s cool. Well, you know,

347
00:22:20,100 –> 00:22:23,300
it didn’t help the British bankers, so, I mean, why would they care?

348
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So anyway. I’m not going to go down that road,

349
00:22:28,990 –> 00:22:32,390
ladies and gentlemen. You can, you can go with me down a little bit later

350
00:22:32,390 –> 00:22:36,190
on. That’s another episode altogether. But the point that Tom and I were making about

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00:22:36,190 –> 00:22:39,790
technology is that as we have progressed over 100 years,

352
00:22:40,110 –> 00:22:43,430
technology has gotten better and the number of

353
00:22:43,430 –> 00:22:46,590
casualties in war has decreased. So, for instance,

354
00:22:47,550 –> 00:22:51,390
the 2nd Battalion, 3rd Platoon in the Korengal Valley

355
00:22:51,870 –> 00:22:55,300
in 2007-2009 lost 50 guys in the

356
00:22:55,300 –> 00:22:59,100
Korengal Valley, a valley that. And this was in Sebastian Younger’s

357
00:22:59,100 –> 00:23:02,940
book War, a valley that the British,

358
00:23:03,100 –> 00:23:06,820
the Russians, and even Afghan, even people in Afghanistan, tribes

359
00:23:06,820 –> 00:23:10,140
in Afghanistan wouldn’t go into that valley. We went into that valley,

360
00:23:10,460 –> 00:23:14,260
we held pieces of that valley, we beat Taliban

361
00:23:14,260 –> 00:23:17,900
fighters. And we only lost 50 guys.

362
00:23:20,230 –> 00:23:23,710
Forget the, Forget the, the morality of it for just a minute. At a

363
00:23:23,710 –> 00:23:24,870
military level.

364
00:23:27,750 –> 00:23:31,470
That’S astounding. That’s astounding. And when you read

365
00:23:31,470 –> 00:23:34,310
war, what you read about is young men

366
00:23:35,110 –> 00:23:38,230
firing off, you know, the 50 cal. And I’ve.

367
00:23:38,870 –> 00:23:41,910
I fired a 50 cal before. It’s, it’s kind of an amazing weapon.

368
00:23:43,110 –> 00:23:46,560
And it gets so hot that they have to. They have to pull it

369
00:23:46,560 –> 00:23:49,720
apart and they can reassemble it in the middle of a

370
00:23:49,720 –> 00:23:53,240
firefight and keep right on going, which is just

371
00:23:53,240 –> 00:23:57,080
nuts. That’s just. That’s just nuts. Insane, right? And only lose 50 guys

372
00:23:57,080 –> 00:24:00,520
over the course of two years, by the way. Now, that’s not to say that

373
00:24:00,520 –> 00:24:03,720
every death was not meaningful and every death was not impactful,

374
00:24:04,520 –> 00:24:08,240
but if that valley had been attempted to be taken in

375
00:24:08,240 –> 00:24:11,480
World War I, you would have lost thousands of guys.

376
00:24:12,590 –> 00:24:15,950
Thousands. It would have been like the Somme. The British lost 60,000

377
00:24:15,950 –> 00:24:19,710
soldiers at the Somme. Insane. An

378
00:24:19,710 –> 00:24:22,830
insane number of people. Like, if we lost people like that in war.

379
00:24:25,310 –> 00:24:29,110
Please give me a break. We wouldn’t tolerate it. And so what

380
00:24:29,110 –> 00:24:32,470
we see, and this is what Tom and I were talking about, I wonder if

381
00:24:32,470 –> 00:24:36,230
over the course of the next 20 years, as drone technology, cyber

382
00:24:36,230 –> 00:24:39,320
warfare, even robotics comes more online

383
00:24:40,120 –> 00:24:43,880
and becomes more acceptable. I, I wonder if the

384
00:24:43,880 –> 00:24:47,000
American appetite for war will continue to decrease

385
00:24:47,560 –> 00:24:51,160
as our technology, our technological, you

386
00:24:51,160 –> 00:24:54,880
know, comes. Becomes so much. Our technological prowess becomes so

387
00:24:54,880 –> 00:24:57,800
much larger. And

388
00:24:58,840 –> 00:25:00,840
fundamentally, will we.

389
00:25:03,010 –> 00:25:06,850
Well, guys like Hemingway, just being anachronism, you know,

390
00:25:06,850 –> 00:25:10,290
part of a past that, to your point, no one can remember

391
00:25:10,770 –> 00:25:14,530
and that now doesn’t matter. And I, I don’t Know, and

392
00:25:14,530 –> 00:25:16,930
Tom and I couldn’t really come to a conclusion on that.

393
00:25:19,010 –> 00:25:20,850
But I do see that happening.

394
00:25:23,170 –> 00:25:25,570
Or if I follow the trend lines and look at the patterns, you know what

395
00:25:25,570 –> 00:25:29,310
I mean? I. I

396
00:25:29,310 –> 00:25:33,110
think it. Does the appetite for war decrease?

397
00:25:33,350 –> 00:25:36,950
I don’t. You have to look at what the

398
00:25:36,950 –> 00:25:40,510
underlying reasons are for war. I just think what we’re seeing is a

399
00:25:40,510 –> 00:25:43,990
transformation of. Of what it is and what the

400
00:25:43,990 –> 00:25:47,670
expectations are, you know, from a

401
00:25:48,550 –> 00:25:50,470
war as a defensive or offensive.

402
00:25:52,470 –> 00:25:54,710
Act. And with drones.

403
00:25:58,240 –> 00:26:01,360
In theory, if you don’t have a defensive mechanism

404
00:26:02,000 –> 00:26:05,840
against it and there, you know, and your enemy has a

405
00:26:05,840 –> 00:26:09,680
stronger offensive mechanism, then our appetite could

406
00:26:09,680 –> 00:26:13,120
increase. Right. Like, if we’re. If we’re getting

407
00:26:13,120 –> 00:26:16,640
attacked with. With drones and have, you know.

408
00:26:18,240 –> 00:26:22,000
And are sterile. Against

409
00:26:22,000 –> 00:26:25,680
being able to fight back, you know, then, you know, then we would have an

410
00:26:25,680 –> 00:26:29,480
appetite for it. But the. I think the bigger question

411
00:26:29,480 –> 00:26:33,000
is, do we have an appetite for fighting ourselves

412
00:26:33,000 –> 00:26:35,640
or using someone else to fight on our behalf?

413
00:26:39,160 –> 00:26:42,680
And that I. Yeah, that. I don’t know.

414
00:26:45,320 –> 00:26:48,640
When I worked at a defense contractor in

415
00:26:48,640 –> 00:26:51,810
2010, obesity

416
00:26:53,170 –> 00:26:56,210
was a massive national defense crisis.

417
00:26:58,530 –> 00:27:01,890
If you look at where we are today in 2025,

418
00:27:02,850 –> 00:27:06,450
obesity is an issue, but you have a lot more.

419
00:27:08,210 –> 00:27:11,890
National defense elements for a national defense crisis,

420
00:27:11,890 –> 00:27:15,090
which goes to. The

421
00:27:15,570 –> 00:27:19,330
entitlement, laziness, all those types of things that you tend to see in the

422
00:27:19,330 –> 00:27:23,170
fourth turning. You know, that

423
00:27:23,330 –> 00:27:27,090
they’re trying to fight with the disinformation, you know, disinformation,

424
00:27:27,890 –> 00:27:31,570
you know, campaigns. Because we know we have a national

425
00:27:31,570 –> 00:27:35,210
defense crisis. That’s great. Yeah. That’s not about the physical

426
00:27:35,210 –> 00:27:38,850
will. It’s the emotional, you know, the emotional will

427
00:27:39,090 –> 00:27:42,770
to fight. So I took this further than just

428
00:27:42,770 –> 00:27:46,410
the technology piece. No, no, no. It

429
00:27:46,410 –> 00:27:49,900
really did. Right. Yeah. No, no, I think it all. I think it all plays.

430
00:27:49,900 –> 00:27:53,140
As long as you have the right. As long as you have the offensive

431
00:27:53,140 –> 00:27:56,660
posture, as long as your offensive

432
00:27:56,740 –> 00:28:00,420
posture. Is greater than your

433
00:28:00,500 –> 00:28:04,180
opponent’s defensive posture, then you’re

434
00:28:04,180 –> 00:28:06,500
fine. But if we have an asymmetric

435
00:28:07,700 –> 00:28:11,500
risk. You could see a lot of

436
00:28:11,500 –> 00:28:13,790
Americans wanting, Wanting more.

437
00:28:15,150 –> 00:28:18,950
Well, and. And that asymmetric risk, it’s interesting that you brought up

438
00:28:18,950 –> 00:28:22,510
that term because one of the things, One of the doors

439
00:28:22,590 –> 00:28:26,150
that World War I opened up was the

440
00:28:26,150 –> 00:28:29,950
door to. The front lines

441
00:28:30,990 –> 00:28:34,550
being in a city or among a

442
00:28:34,550 –> 00:28:38,350
civilian population. And we have marched

443
00:28:38,430 –> 00:28:41,730
ruthlessly to the logical conclusion of this.

444
00:28:41,890 –> 00:28:45,330
When, as I brought up a couple episodes ago,

445
00:28:45,890 –> 00:28:48,450
when in the most recent

446
00:28:49,330 –> 00:28:53,130
Russia, Ukraine war, the Russians are parachuting into the

447
00:28:53,130 –> 00:28:56,690
Ukrainian airport and Ukrainian people were just

448
00:28:56,690 –> 00:28:58,130
Shooting them out of the sky.

449
00:29:00,930 –> 00:29:04,530
That’s the civilian well. And you see this with cyber warfare.

450
00:29:04,530 –> 00:29:07,780
Exactly. See this with. Oh yeah, you see this with drone warfare.

451
00:29:08,260 –> 00:29:11,700
So that, that, that. What are we now, fifth

452
00:29:11,700 –> 00:29:14,980
generation? I guess now fifth generation asymmetry,

453
00:29:16,020 –> 00:29:19,460
where the population of a country

454
00:29:19,940 –> 00:29:23,700
is just as much of a viable military target

455
00:29:24,420 –> 00:29:27,660
as its material, as its land, as its

456
00:29:27,660 –> 00:29:31,500
possessions, as its economic system, as its communication system.

457
00:29:31,500 –> 00:29:34,570
Da, da, da. Now just pushes the front,

458
00:29:35,930 –> 00:29:38,490
and you talk about obesity, pushes the front.

459
00:29:40,410 –> 00:29:43,770
Directly into the house of all those people who are obese and have no will.

460
00:29:46,090 –> 00:29:49,850
And, and I don’t know what you do with that. I don’t

461
00:29:49,850 –> 00:29:52,570
know how that all plays out.

462
00:29:54,170 –> 00:29:57,770
I do know that at some point we have

463
00:29:57,770 –> 00:29:58,890
to sort of.

464
00:30:05,690 –> 00:30:09,530
Acknowledge it, I guess. I don’t know. I actually

465
00:30:09,610 –> 00:30:13,290
think maybe there’s a bigger question that just gets

466
00:30:13,290 –> 00:30:14,810
into nihilism and.

467
00:30:17,130 –> 00:30:19,770
You know, is have people kind of.

468
00:30:21,530 –> 00:30:25,170
Lost that will to even want to fight to

469
00:30:25,170 –> 00:30:28,940
live? Right. So war ultimately is

470
00:30:28,940 –> 00:30:32,620
driven by a willingness and a desire to

471
00:30:32,620 –> 00:30:34,500
survive and to protect.

472
00:30:37,140 –> 00:30:40,340
Right? Yeah. So

473
00:30:40,740 –> 00:30:44,260
that will get. That gets into some of the other questions that we’ve teed up,

474
00:30:44,500 –> 00:30:48,220
which is, you know, why do. You know, why do we go to

475
00:30:48,220 –> 00:30:51,060
war? Why do men, you know, why do men fight?

476
00:30:53,290 –> 00:30:56,490
And you know, do we. Have we lost that

477
00:30:57,370 –> 00:31:01,170
2mil 2 billion year wiring? Has that

478
00:31:01,170 –> 00:31:04,970
been overwritten to a place where we

479
00:31:04,970 –> 00:31:08,650
have a lack of will to. Or

480
00:31:09,130 –> 00:31:12,890
will to fight and to, to survive?

481
00:31:18,170 –> 00:31:21,930
Did I. So, I mean, for you. No, no, no, no, no, no, no,

482
00:31:22,880 –> 00:31:25,360
no. It’s never, it’s never too far. No, no, no, no. It’s never too far.

483
00:31:25,360 –> 00:31:27,640
Might be too far for the listeners, but it’s never too far for me. No,

484
00:31:27,640 –> 00:31:27,920
no.

485
00:31:31,360 –> 00:31:34,960
No, I. So, okay, you talk about 2 billion year

486
00:31:34,960 –> 00:31:36,400
old wiring. Okay.

487
00:31:39,120 –> 00:31:42,800
You can’t override that with a thousand years

488
00:31:42,800 –> 00:31:46,360
of civilization. It. It just doesn’t work. The numbers at

489
00:31:46,360 –> 00:31:50,140
scale don’t match. Right. And so

490
00:31:50,700 –> 00:31:54,380
I do think people do have the ability to fight

491
00:31:54,700 –> 00:31:58,220
to live. I also think that.

492
00:31:58,780 –> 00:32:01,900
And we saw this during, most recently during COVID

493
00:32:02,620 –> 00:32:06,220
this was the test. We saw this most recently during COVID We

494
00:32:06,220 –> 00:32:08,380
saw the separation between

495
00:32:09,740 –> 00:32:13,500
people who were. Willing to

496
00:32:13,500 –> 00:32:17,300
go along with whatever the system said. We’re talking about systems here in a minute.

497
00:32:17,300 –> 00:32:21,060
Whatever the system and the man said versus people who were

498
00:32:21,060 –> 00:32:24,260
like, hell no and get away from me right

499
00:32:24,900 –> 00:32:28,220
now. To your point, I did think, and I’ve talked about this with other guests

500
00:32:28,220 –> 00:32:31,700
on the show, I did think that

501
00:32:31,860 –> 00:32:35,460
pre2020, I thought exactly what you’re thinking. I Did think

502
00:32:35,540 –> 00:32:39,300
we’re done. Like we don’t have it in us anymore. And then Covid

503
00:32:39,300 –> 00:32:42,980
came along and really pushed people and we found out who was going to

504
00:32:42,980 –> 00:32:46,380
stick and who was going to allow themselves to be

505
00:32:46,380 –> 00:32:50,230
pushed. And that was incredibly enlightening at a

506
00:32:50,230 –> 00:32:52,830
whole bunch of different levels. And you and I have talked about this on the

507
00:32:52,830 –> 00:32:56,190
show. We don’t need to go into Covid again. But like, that was incredibly

508
00:32:56,190 –> 00:32:59,790
enlightening for figuring out who was going to stick and who wasn’t.

509
00:32:59,790 –> 00:33:03,389
And so my question is not is that 2

510
00:33:03,389 –> 00:33:07,070
billion year old wiring gone away or ground

511
00:33:07,070 –> 00:33:10,670
down because we have TikTok or whatever

512
00:33:10,670 –> 00:33:14,430
or, you know, doordash. My

513
00:33:14,430 –> 00:33:17,590
question is, what is the crisis that’s big enough.

514
00:33:19,350 –> 00:33:22,950
For that wiring to come out? Because it is all

515
00:33:23,030 –> 00:33:26,430
still in there. Exactly. It’s all. It’s all still down in the

516
00:33:26,430 –> 00:33:30,190
basement. It’s just. It’s kind of close

517
00:33:30,190 –> 00:33:33,590
the loop on this. It’s just buried underneath layers and layers of

518
00:33:33,590 –> 00:33:37,270
postmodern, intellectual, emotional and psychological fat.

519
00:33:37,910 –> 00:33:41,600
And what is the thing that’s going to cut through the fat and

520
00:33:41,600 –> 00:33:44,440
get to the. Get to the core of that?

521
00:33:46,200 –> 00:33:49,640
Because I do think men. Physical contact. Men. Right.

522
00:33:51,160 –> 00:33:55,000
Yeah. Right. Well, yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, I do martial arts.

523
00:33:55,480 –> 00:33:59,240
I have a long background in martial arts. I have a long background in. In

524
00:33:59,240 –> 00:34:02,760
the fighting arts and the combat arts and combat sports. And combat, you know, and

525
00:34:02,840 –> 00:34:04,840
combat. But. But what do you call it?

526
00:34:06,760 –> 00:34:10,440
Tactical sports and things like that where it’s like real physical and.

527
00:34:10,440 –> 00:34:14,060
Yeah. You know, I’m also an intellectual. And at the end of the

528
00:34:14,060 –> 00:34:17,620
day. Well, at the end of the day, at some point, you know

529
00:34:18,580 –> 00:34:22,300
my favorite line from Oppenheimer, At a certain point, you have to move from theory

530
00:34:22,300 –> 00:34:26,100
to practice. You got to go into the thing.

531
00:34:26,580 –> 00:34:30,340
And going into the thing. Is.

532
00:34:32,180 –> 00:34:35,260
For modern people is very hard. It’s very hard to push them into the thing.

533
00:34:35,260 –> 00:34:39,100
And for. And even for Hemingway’s generation, and I didn’t bridge into this part. This

534
00:34:39,100 –> 00:34:42,120
is the last point I’ll make on this that we can go back to the

535
00:34:42,120 –> 00:34:45,880
book, but on Hemingway’s generation. So they began the

536
00:34:45,880 –> 00:34:49,480
trope of the lost generation, which of course Gertrude Stein tagged them

537
00:34:49,480 –> 00:34:53,240
with. But it was. This was the trope of.

538
00:34:56,840 –> 00:35:00,520
People who were so exhausted by the trauma of Name your thing here

539
00:35:00,520 –> 00:35:04,240
in the blank. Which for them it was World War I, which was a genuinely

540
00:35:04,240 –> 00:35:07,970
traumatic event. Um, but you could put the

541
00:35:07,970 –> 00:35:11,730
Russian Revolution in there, or the 1918 Spanish

542
00:35:11,730 –> 00:35:15,530
flu, or the collapse of the

543
00:35:15,530 –> 00:35:19,010
Habsburg Empire or the collapse of the Ottoman Empire

544
00:35:19,970 –> 00:35:23,410
or whatever Gallipoli. You put whatever the hell you want in that blank.

545
00:35:25,170 –> 00:35:28,850
But they began the trope, or the trope began there, of

546
00:35:29,010 –> 00:35:32,610
this traumatic thing has happened to me. Now my entire life is off the rails.

547
00:35:33,280 –> 00:35:35,600
Now I can’t deal. And.

548
00:35:37,280 –> 00:35:40,800
The reason the lost generation was able to produce artists is because

549
00:35:40,880 –> 00:35:44,480
I think artists and industrialists and family

550
00:35:44,480 –> 00:35:48,240
people, because they sell enough of the old wiring to just sort of power through

551
00:35:48,240 –> 00:35:52,040
that. What we’re missing is the old wiring

552
00:35:52,040 –> 00:35:55,440
on the old resilience to power through the things to do the things.

553
00:35:56,960 –> 00:35:59,800
That’s the other trope that came out of World War I that has now become

554
00:35:59,800 –> 00:36:02,510
refined in our time. You know, now we’re down to.

555
00:36:06,910 –> 00:36:10,710
I have ADD and so I can’t work an entire day because

556
00:36:10,710 –> 00:36:13,950
I got to go home at like one o’ clock or whatever.

557
00:36:14,350 –> 00:36:17,590
And I picked an innocuous one there. There’s plenty of other examples I could pick

558
00:36:17,590 –> 00:36:21,350
that are less innocuous than that. But I don’t want to get Libby

559
00:36:21,350 –> 00:36:23,790
in trouble. Yeah.

560
00:36:26,110 –> 00:36:29,680
I always get in trouble with you. But

561
00:36:30,240 –> 00:36:33,920
I actually, I kind of agree with you that what we’ve seen over the last.

562
00:36:35,440 –> 00:36:39,200
Like five years and more specifically the last three

563
00:36:39,200 –> 00:36:42,080
or two, is that group that

564
00:36:42,400 –> 00:36:43,200
appeared.

565
00:36:46,240 –> 00:36:49,840
I wouldn’t say unmotivated, but complacent.

566
00:36:50,240 –> 00:36:53,920
Let’s just put complacent and going along.

567
00:36:55,010 –> 00:36:58,130
My perception was that they was maybe more 80% of

568
00:36:58,290 –> 00:37:01,770
society. But as they’re kind of faced with a

569
00:37:01,770 –> 00:37:05,490
reality that doesn’t appeal to them

570
00:37:05,810 –> 00:37:09,410
and their fight instinct and survival instinct

571
00:37:09,410 –> 00:37:12,530
starts to kick in, I actually think we’re down to maybe about

572
00:37:12,530 –> 00:37:16,330
30%. You know, and that I like

573
00:37:16,330 –> 00:37:19,730
the world as it is. You know, there’s no there. There’s,

574
00:37:20,140 –> 00:37:23,660
you know, there’s no you, there’s. It’s futile to try to change it.

575
00:37:23,900 –> 00:37:27,620
You know, yada yada, yada. Those are the folks that’s like

576
00:37:27,620 –> 00:37:31,260
the Leviathan fighting for life is like. They’re so

577
00:37:32,620 –> 00:37:36,420
hell bent. Excuse my. My English. They’re so hell

578
00:37:36,420 –> 00:37:40,020
bent on maintaining the world as it

579
00:37:40,020 –> 00:37:43,180
is. But they’ll be

580
00:37:43,180 –> 00:37:47,020
pushed with new elements of reality that get their

581
00:37:47,810 –> 00:37:51,290
survival instinct, their base survival

582
00:37:51,290 –> 00:37:54,770
instinct moving. So that will ultimately change again.

583
00:37:55,570 –> 00:37:59,250
Right. Well, and I also wonder if we are. I mean, we’re the first generation

584
00:37:59,250 –> 00:38:02,610
that’s able to. We’re literate enough with enough

585
00:38:02,690 –> 00:38:06,490
communication technology to talk to each

586
00:38:06,490 –> 00:38:09,570
other. To your point about narrative breaking, narrative structures earlier.

587
00:38:11,250 –> 00:38:12,450
In ways that.

588
00:38:16,500 –> 00:38:20,020
Yes, people were literate in the past. So they didn’t have the communication structure. Right.

589
00:38:20,340 –> 00:38:23,780
Or they had the communication structure, but they didn’t have the literacy.

590
00:38:23,860 –> 00:38:27,540
Right. We are, in the last 25 years, we’re at

591
00:38:27,540 –> 00:38:30,980
that apex of, like, the. The literacy. Enough

592
00:38:31,140 –> 00:38:34,860
literacy and communication, enough of a communication

593
00:38:34,860 –> 00:38:38,700
structure for people to begin to break narratives. Right. To

594
00:38:38,700 –> 00:38:41,380
your point about. About sort of narrative control

595
00:38:42,490 –> 00:38:45,930
and the 30% of people who. Who are still

596
00:38:45,930 –> 00:38:49,690
thinking that the narrative

597
00:38:49,690 –> 00:38:53,370
control lies in the past, with

598
00:38:53,530 –> 00:38:56,970
past levers being pulled to ensure

599
00:38:56,970 –> 00:39:00,650
narrative control, those people are being disrupted, being disrupted left. And right.

600
00:39:02,730 –> 00:39:06,410
Now. The thing is, you have narrative control. Well, no, first

601
00:39:06,410 –> 00:39:10,170
you have K fabe, which is happening of all the time. You have a

602
00:39:10,170 –> 00:39:13,950
psyop that’s going on all the time. Then you have the

603
00:39:13,950 –> 00:39:17,750
narrative that’s underneath the psyop, whatever that narrative

604
00:39:17,750 –> 00:39:21,070
is. And it’s kind of hard to fight through the psyop, the signal versus the

605
00:39:21,070 –> 00:39:24,910
noise, as they say in business. Right? And you got to find the

606
00:39:24,910 –> 00:39:28,550
signal inside of the noise. Once you get that, then you got to go below

607
00:39:28,550 –> 00:39:32,230
that and figure out what the real problem is. And so the challenge is

608
00:39:32,230 –> 00:39:35,550
not. I think in our time, the challenge is not literacy, because people can read

609
00:39:35,550 –> 00:39:38,870
the words, but the challenge is comprehension.

610
00:39:39,500 –> 00:39:43,220
Can they. Do they understand what they’re reading? And that’s sort of

611
00:39:43,220 –> 00:39:45,820
where I. That’s sort of where I get off the boat, you know?

612
00:39:47,100 –> 00:39:50,940
Yeah, it does get too complex. I mean, you just have to be able to

613
00:39:50,940 –> 00:39:54,700
kind of try to inoculate yourself from, if you know

614
00:39:54,700 –> 00:39:58,540
how persuasion. What the persuasion tactics are, you can

615
00:39:58,540 –> 00:40:02,140
start to see them, and then. Then that helps a little,

616
00:40:02,780 –> 00:40:06,500
right? It does. It helps a little bit. You know, we’re all human.

617
00:40:06,500 –> 00:40:10,200
We’re all human. I do think in today’s

618
00:40:10,200 –> 00:40:13,840
world, not as many Bolsheviks would be killed.

619
00:40:15,120 –> 00:40:18,720
No, no. Because they would have woken up sooner,

620
00:40:18,960 –> 00:40:22,600
right? Oh. Oh, for sure. Oh, for sure. I mean. Oh, my

621
00:40:22,600 –> 00:40:26,440
God. I mean, like, on the one hand, Lennon would

622
00:40:26,440 –> 00:40:28,640
have had a field day with Twitter.

623
00:40:30,320 –> 00:40:34,160
Yeah. Oh, my God. You give that guy a phone and the ability to tweet,

624
00:40:34,620 –> 00:40:38,340
that guy’s unstoppable. Well, no, he. He would be perceived as

625
00:40:38,340 –> 00:40:41,420
unstoppable. But then you give Trotsky a podcast

626
00:40:41,980 –> 00:40:45,340
for a while, right? But Trotsky was much more of a podcast guy. Like, he.

627
00:40:45,420 –> 00:40:49,060
He. He would have gone off and done all. And then your.

628
00:40:49,060 –> 00:40:52,300
Your. Your. Your. Your sort of.

629
00:40:55,100 –> 00:40:58,580
You’re sort of. Your sort of rando, kind of

630
00:40:58,580 –> 00:41:02,280
unpredictable element is Stalin, because I don’t know where he would have

631
00:41:02,280 –> 00:41:05,280
fallen out. I have no idea with that guy.

632
00:41:06,800 –> 00:41:10,160
But, you know, you. You look at

633
00:41:10,400 –> 00:41:13,880
the Russian Revolution as An example, you know, one of the knock on effects of

634
00:41:13,880 –> 00:41:15,760
World War I or knockoff effects, right.

635
00:41:20,080 –> 00:41:23,920
It. It is. It’s really hard to hold a revolution today

636
00:41:24,000 –> 00:41:27,520
in any part of the world. It’s really hard to hold a revolution.

637
00:41:27,930 –> 00:41:31,730
And it’s not because the revolutionary elan doesn’t exist. It

638
00:41:31,730 –> 00:41:35,530
does. The elon still exists. It’s still there. But.

639
00:41:36,970 –> 00:41:39,530
Well, we’re seeing this right now with

640
00:41:40,490 –> 00:41:44,210
the. The mayor elect of New York City. I wasn’t going to talk about

641
00:41:44,210 –> 00:41:48,010
this guy at all, but like, this is the example, right? He’s got the revolutionary

642
00:41:48,010 –> 00:41:51,450
law and he’s got the beard, he’s got the youth, he’s got the, the appropriate

643
00:41:51,450 –> 00:41:55,120
jacket, you know, whatever, it’s fine. And

644
00:41:55,760 –> 00:41:59,560
the thing is, the 30 of people who control things in New York City are

645
00:41:59,560 –> 00:42:02,320
still going to bring them in the back room and back and knock them around

646
00:42:02,720 –> 00:42:06,560
exactly like. And they’re going to tell them what’s

647
00:42:06,560 –> 00:42:09,760
what and then they’re going to throw them back out front, right?

648
00:42:10,240 –> 00:42:12,760
And be like, go ahead and do the song and dance because we’re telling you

649
00:42:12,760 –> 00:42:16,480
to do the song and dance. And that, that cynicism,

650
00:42:16,480 –> 00:42:19,920
right. Or maybe skepticism was a term used. I’ll use the term skepticism.

651
00:42:20,390 –> 00:42:21,510
The skepticism.

652
00:42:24,390 –> 00:42:28,030
Is beneficial and, and the skepticism is what saves the

653
00:42:28,030 –> 00:42:31,830
Bolsheviks from being killed. I think that’s what. Exactly. That’s

654
00:42:31,830 –> 00:42:34,870
what, that’s what prevents them from being. From being killed. So.

655
00:42:35,590 –> 00:42:39,350
All right, all right, let’s. Yeah, let’s get back to the

656
00:42:39,350 –> 00:42:42,950
book. Back to A Farewell to Arms. Let’s go back to the book. So

657
00:42:43,190 –> 00:42:45,030
we’re gonna pick up in book two.

658
00:42:47,360 –> 00:42:51,160
And each book, I mean, there’s five books in, In. In a Farewell Arms,

659
00:42:51,160 –> 00:42:54,560
it’s divided up into five parts. And so we’re going to pick up in chapter

660
00:42:54,560 –> 00:42:57,920
22, and I’m gonna, I’m gonna just

661
00:42:58,320 –> 00:43:01,680
read just a little bit of a piece here, a couple paragraphs. So.

662
00:43:03,600 –> 00:43:07,360
Frederick, the thinly disguised Ernest Hemingway character,

663
00:43:08,560 –> 00:43:11,760
had. Had been out and

664
00:43:12,480 –> 00:43:15,210
he. He.

665
00:43:17,290 –> 00:43:21,090
He was in bed with jaundice, right? He’d acquired jaundice. This was after

666
00:43:21,090 –> 00:43:24,570
he had been. Had. Had his surgery and was beginning to

667
00:43:24,570 –> 00:43:27,930
recover and go through physical therapy for the shrapnel wound.

668
00:43:28,330 –> 00:43:32,170
And now we have this. And I pick up one day while I was

669
00:43:32,170 –> 00:43:36,010
in bed with jaundice, Ms. Van Campen came in the room, opened

670
00:43:36,010 –> 00:43:39,130
the door into the armoire and saw the empty bottles there.

671
00:43:40,260 –> 00:43:43,100
I had sent a load of them down by the porter, and I believe she

672
00:43:43,100 –> 00:43:46,700
must have seen them going out and come up to find some more. They’re

673
00:43:46,700 –> 00:43:50,100
mostly vermouth bottles, Marsala bottles, Capri bottles, empty

674
00:43:50,100 –> 00:43:53,860
Chianti flasks and a few cognac bottles. The porter had carried out

675
00:43:53,860 –> 00:43:57,140
the large bottles, those that had held vermouth of the straw covered

676
00:43:57,140 –> 00:44:00,420
Chianti flasks and left the brandy bottles for the last.

677
00:44:01,300 –> 00:44:04,420
It was the brandy bottles and a bottle shaped like a bear which had held

678
00:44:04,420 –> 00:44:08,170
kumal that Ms. Van Campen found. The bear shaped

679
00:44:08,170 –> 00:44:11,810
bottle enraged her particularly. She held it up. The bear was sitting

680
00:44:11,970 –> 00:44:15,250
up on its haunches with its paws up. There was a cork in its glass

681
00:44:15,250 –> 00:44:18,290
head and a few sticky crystals at the bottom. I

682
00:44:19,010 –> 00:44:22,849
laughed. It is Kumel, I said. The best Kumel comes in those

683
00:44:22,849 –> 00:44:26,690
bear shaped bottles. It comes from Russia. Those are all brandy bottles, aren’t they? Ms.

684
00:44:26,690 –> 00:44:30,050
Van Campen asked. I can’t see them all, I said, but they probably are.

685
00:44:30,450 –> 00:44:34,020
How long has this been going on? I brought them and brought them in

686
00:44:34,020 –> 00:44:37,860
myself, I said. I have had Italian officers visit me frequently and I’ve kept

687
00:44:37,860 –> 00:44:41,420
brandy to offer them. You haven’t been drinking it yourself, she said.

688
00:44:41,500 –> 00:44:45,300
I have also drunk it myself. Brandy, she said. Eleven empty bottles of

689
00:44:45,300 –> 00:44:49,020
brandy and that bare liquid Kumel. I

690
00:44:49,020 –> 00:44:52,540
will send for someone to take them away. Those are all empty ball. Those are

691
00:44:52,540 –> 00:44:56,260
all the empty bottles you have for the moment. And I was pitying

692
00:44:56,260 –> 00:45:00,070
you having jaundice. Pity is something that is wasted on you. Thank

693
00:45:00,070 –> 00:45:03,190
you. I suppose you can’t be blamed for not wanting to go back to the

694
00:45:03,190 –> 00:45:05,870
front. But I should think you should want. You would want to try something more

695
00:45:05,870 –> 00:45:08,990
intelligent than producing jaundice with alcoholism.

696
00:45:09,710 –> 00:45:13,510
With what? With alcoholism. You heard me say it. I

697
00:45:13,510 –> 00:45:17,310
did not say anything. Unless you find something else, I’m afraid you will have

698
00:45:17,310 –> 00:45:20,350
to go back to the front when you are through with your jaundice. I don’t

699
00:45:20,350 –> 00:45:23,950
believe self inflicted jaundice entitles you to a convalescent leave.

700
00:45:24,510 –> 00:45:28,200
You don’t? I do not. Have you ever had John dismiss Van

701
00:45:28,200 –> 00:45:31,960
Campen? No, but I have seen a great deal of it. You notice how

702
00:45:31,960 –> 00:45:34,920
the patients enjoyed it, I suppose. Just better than the front.

703
00:45:35,880 –> 00:45:39,240
Ms. Van Campen, I said, did you ever know a man who tried to disable

704
00:45:39,240 –> 00:45:42,680
himself by kicking himself in the scrotum? Ms. Van

705
00:45:42,680 –> 00:45:46,360
Campen ignored the actual question. She had to ignore it or leave the room.

706
00:45:46,360 –> 00:45:49,160
She was not ready to leave because she had disliked me for a long time.

707
00:45:49,640 –> 00:45:52,040
And now. And she was now cashing in.

708
00:45:53,510 –> 00:45:56,870
I have known many men to escape the front through self inflicted wounds.

709
00:45:57,350 –> 00:46:01,030
That wasn’t the question I have seen self inflicted wounds. Also

710
00:46:01,270 –> 00:46:03,590
I asked you if you had ever known a man who had tried to disable

711
00:46:03,590 –> 00:46:07,190
himself by kicking himself in the scrotum. Because that is the dearest sensation to

712
00:46:07,190 –> 00:46:10,630
jaundice and is a sensation that I believe few women ever experienced.

713
00:46:11,190 –> 00:46:14,390
That was why I asked you if you had ever had the jaundice, Ms. Van

714
00:46:14,390 –> 00:46:17,510
Camp, and because Ms. Van Camp had left the room

715
00:46:18,400 –> 00:46:21,280
later Ms. Gage came in.

716
00:46:24,880 –> 00:46:28,480
That little piece there from chapter 22 of A Farewell to Arms.

717
00:46:30,240 –> 00:46:32,640
Sort of sets up my next couple of points here.

718
00:46:33,840 –> 00:46:36,320
So Frederick.

719
00:46:38,320 –> 00:46:42,080
Had a drinking problem, right? But even more so

720
00:46:42,160 –> 00:46:45,760
than that. And Ernest Hemingway was a thinly. I.

721
00:46:46,080 –> 00:46:49,920
I read this about him in the Wikipedia article that I read

722
00:46:49,920 –> 00:46:53,600
up on him just to sort of refresh myself on Earnest, thinly disguised

723
00:46:53,600 –> 00:46:57,040
alcoholic his entire life. Right. He really did

724
00:46:57,840 –> 00:46:59,520
swim in the booze.

725
00:47:01,440 –> 00:47:05,120
And by the way, it’s a critical element to all

726
00:47:05,120 –> 00:47:08,640
of his books, whether it’s in our time, the sun also

727
00:47:08,640 –> 00:47:12,400
Rises all the way out to For Whom the Bell Tolls and

728
00:47:12,400 –> 00:47:14,080
even the Old man in the Sea. Right.

729
00:47:16,760 –> 00:47:20,440
Alcohol was the lubricant that, that Ernest Hemingway liked.

730
00:47:21,640 –> 00:47:25,360
In the case of Frederick Henry here though, having

731
00:47:25,360 –> 00:47:29,040
a problem with the man was really at the bottom of the alcoholism. And having

732
00:47:29,040 –> 00:47:30,680
a problem with the man is nothing new.

733
00:47:32,920 –> 00:47:36,720
Bucking good advice from elders and traditional constructs is nothing

734
00:47:36,720 –> 00:47:40,260
new in the world of youth either. Both Catherine and Frederick and

735
00:47:40,260 –> 00:47:44,020
Catherine’s nurse friend Ferguson, who was

736
00:47:44,020 –> 00:47:47,460
responsible for maintaining Catherine’s morality through

737
00:47:47,460 –> 00:47:50,900
tears, pushed back even against the traditional

738
00:47:50,900 –> 00:47:54,700
morality of their own era that demanded marriage

739
00:47:54,860 –> 00:47:58,540
in the case of pregnancy. By the way, Catherine does wind

740
00:47:58,540 –> 00:48:01,660
up pregnant in this book and in the story

741
00:48:02,620 –> 00:48:06,410
and it is elided over. And

742
00:48:06,410 –> 00:48:09,970
you don’t really. No, I won’t say you don’t really. If you understand

743
00:48:09,970 –> 00:48:13,690
something about the nature of relationships between men and women, then you understand exactly

744
00:48:13,690 –> 00:48:17,330
what happened because there is no new thing under the

745
00:48:17,330 –> 00:48:21,090
sun. Now Catherine, one of the things that jumped

746
00:48:21,090 –> 00:48:24,290
out to me and I pointed this out to my wife interestingly enough, who is

747
00:48:24,290 –> 00:48:28,130
very passionate about neonatal and early childhood

748
00:48:28,130 –> 00:48:31,770
care and was also my wife was also an art teacher for many

749
00:48:31,770 –> 00:48:35,530
years and all this kind of stuff. And so one of the

750
00:48:35,530 –> 00:48:39,170
things I pointed out to her as I was going through this book was the

751
00:48:39,170 –> 00:48:42,930
amount of drinking that Catherine did. And she had

752
00:48:42,930 –> 00:48:45,850
consumed a lot of alcohol in her pregnancy. A lot.

753
00:48:46,650 –> 00:48:49,690
And it isn’t clear this is the primary driver for

754
00:48:50,090 –> 00:48:52,650
spoiler alert. The baby dies. The baby’s death.

755
00:48:53,930 –> 00:48:57,770
But even back in the day, fetal alcohol Syndrome. And I had my

756
00:48:57,770 –> 00:49:00,980
wife tell me this was, was a thing like people did actually know what that

757
00:49:00,980 –> 00:49:04,740
was. And all these barriers and boundaries

758
00:49:06,100 –> 00:49:09,860
in tradition, wisdom, sexual behavior and carousing. Hemingway

759
00:49:09,860 –> 00:49:13,540
astutely observes and documents the rejection of all of them, while

760
00:49:13,540 –> 00:49:17,300
portraying those that serve as guardians and gatekeepers as stuffy, quote

761
00:49:17,300 –> 00:49:20,940
unquote, out of touch hypocrites, or even weirdly enough, as attempted

762
00:49:20,940 –> 00:49:24,660
murderers. The people who tried to shoot him when he

763
00:49:25,150 –> 00:49:28,750
escaped the, the carbon Ari who were going to send him back to the front

764
00:49:28,910 –> 00:49:31,870
and then jumped into the. Jumped into the water to escape.

765
00:49:33,150 –> 00:49:36,430
And so it comes to this question which we are at, at the end of

766
00:49:36,430 –> 00:49:39,870
the Fourth Turning, as Libby just brought up. And I think it’s a question that

767
00:49:41,150 –> 00:49:44,670
the, A Farewell to Arms at the end of that

768
00:49:44,670 –> 00:49:48,470
last Fourth Turning opened up a revolution that now we are

769
00:49:48,470 –> 00:49:51,150
at the end of, at the end of this fourth Turning.

770
00:49:52,690 –> 00:49:56,530
And the revolution is one that has torn down tradition

771
00:49:56,530 –> 00:50:00,170
and has torn down wisdom. Even the conversation that I was having with the

772
00:50:00,170 –> 00:50:03,970
client before, a kind of like a client before I came on to this, this

773
00:50:03,970 –> 00:50:06,850
episode today, before I recorded this episode today, was around

774
00:50:08,210 –> 00:50:11,970
fundamentally, how do people who are older mentor people who are younger

775
00:50:12,530 –> 00:50:15,810
when, when the people who are younger are so radically different.

776
00:50:17,410 –> 00:50:20,770
Now than they were in the past. So

777
00:50:21,010 –> 00:50:24,610
I guess the question is, let’s start with this one. Tradition, right?

778
00:50:24,850 –> 00:50:28,690
Living. What, what is the role of tradition?

779
00:50:28,770 –> 00:50:32,530
Like. Tradition matter. Why should we

780
00:50:32,530 –> 00:50:36,290
care? We’re coming up on Thanksgiving. I mean, we have very

781
00:50:36,290 –> 00:50:39,730
few national holidays. I’ve said this in America, we probably really only have two. We

782
00:50:39,730 –> 00:50:42,610
have July 4th and Thanksgiving. That’s really the two.

783
00:50:43,920 –> 00:50:46,480
Other than that, we’ve kind of thrown out everything else.

784
00:50:47,680 –> 00:50:51,360
We, I, I mean, I personally, I struggle to celebrate my birthday.

785
00:50:52,000 –> 00:50:54,000
Like, you know, like what.

786
00:50:55,600 –> 00:50:59,440
We, we are, we are a revolutionary country in that way, where we have

787
00:50:59,440 –> 00:51:03,200
eschewed all traditions and everything’s new all the time. And

788
00:51:03,200 –> 00:51:05,840
yet traditions provide an anchor

789
00:51:07,200 –> 00:51:10,690
when everything else is going to hell. And, and Hemingway’s

790
00:51:10,690 –> 00:51:14,130
generation was the first generation, even before the 60s generation that

791
00:51:14,130 –> 00:51:17,610
questioned all those traditions, questioned all those bromides, questioned all that

792
00:51:17,610 –> 00:51:21,210
wisdom and said, hell no, we’re going to do something else. You know, because this

793
00:51:21,210 –> 00:51:24,250
war was so traumatic. That was the thing. This war was so traumatic. We have

794
00:51:24,250 –> 00:51:27,970
to go do something else. Now we’re at the

795
00:51:27,970 –> 00:51:31,610
logical end of that again. So can we.

796
00:51:32,010 –> 00:51:35,490
Does tradition still have a role? Can we recapture traditions? Can we remake

797
00:51:35,490 –> 00:51:38,720
traditions? This is one of my how do we build coming out of the Fourth

798
00:51:38,720 –> 00:51:42,320
Turning questions. So go Ahead. I’m

799
00:51:42,320 –> 00:51:43,720
rambling a little bit here, but go ahead.

800
00:51:46,440 –> 00:51:48,280
I, yeah.

801
00:51:50,760 –> 00:51:53,560
I agree that tradition.

802
00:51:55,320 –> 00:51:58,520
Brings about an element of certainty and cycles.

803
00:52:00,040 –> 00:52:03,480
That are important just from a perspective of predictability,

804
00:52:04,230 –> 00:52:07,670
you know, and they add stability in a world that is constantly

805
00:52:07,670 –> 00:52:11,470
changing. Change is a constant that we

806
00:52:11,470 –> 00:52:15,270
can’t control. So they offer a realm of stability

807
00:52:16,150 –> 00:52:19,750
on the most basic level and predictability around like

808
00:52:19,829 –> 00:52:20,470
cycles.

809
00:52:23,670 –> 00:52:27,430
But I look at tradition more around principles and

810
00:52:27,430 –> 00:52:30,470
practices that have been tested and tried.

811
00:52:32,270 –> 00:52:36,110
As mechanisms and guidance for a

812
00:52:36,110 –> 00:52:39,830
life that you, that you a thriving life versus just in

813
00:52:39,830 –> 00:52:43,470
a surviving life. You know,

814
00:52:43,470 –> 00:52:47,230
and many, you maybe not

815
00:52:47,230 –> 00:52:50,950
expressly but implicitly just are seeking

816
00:52:50,950 –> 00:52:54,590
to survive and put policies out to help people

817
00:52:54,750 –> 00:52:58,600
survive, like the homeless, you know, like homeless,

818
00:52:58,760 –> 00:53:02,520
homeless. It’s just about surviving but not thinking about policies

819
00:53:02,520 –> 00:53:06,280
that will help people thrive. And so for

820
00:53:06,280 –> 00:53:09,400
me, you know, like religious traditions

821
00:53:09,800 –> 00:53:13,440
or community traditions are those

822
00:53:13,440 –> 00:53:17,240
things that will help us to thrive if we follow, you know, if we

823
00:53:17,240 –> 00:53:20,200
follow them principles and practices.

824
00:53:21,970 –> 00:53:25,690
And if we don’t follow them, you know, life may be a

825
00:53:25,690 –> 00:53:29,450
bit harder and more challenging. So

826
00:53:29,450 –> 00:53:33,210
I, I read that and interpreted it more around principles

827
00:53:33,210 –> 00:53:35,890
and practices. I think, you know, I.

828
00:53:39,890 –> 00:53:43,410
The, the story and lessons of the seven,

829
00:53:43,810 –> 00:53:46,770
the seven deadly sins. Like I’ve brought that up before,

830
00:53:47,660 –> 00:53:51,420
but that never has become more of a

831
00:53:51,980 –> 00:53:55,420
practical lesson around why those seven deadly

832
00:53:55,420 –> 00:53:59,100
sins can destroy a society. But what

833
00:53:59,100 –> 00:54:02,860
you see at, you know, where we and the Western world are today

834
00:54:03,420 –> 00:54:07,100
is those seven deadly sins, you know, aren’t

835
00:54:07,100 –> 00:54:10,420
explicitly, you know, celebrated and

836
00:54:10,420 –> 00:54:14,100
embraced, but they’re ex, implicitly celebrated and

837
00:54:14,100 –> 00:54:17,860
embraced based on a lot of the policies that we see that our

838
00:54:17,860 –> 00:54:20,940
governments, politicians, media, et cetera,

839
00:54:21,660 –> 00:54:25,020
push. So

840
00:54:26,300 –> 00:54:30,140
do you simply, you know, traditions and

841
00:54:30,140 –> 00:54:32,140
practices should be about elements.

842
00:54:34,220 –> 00:54:37,660
Elements of life that offer some predictability, that

843
00:54:38,060 –> 00:54:41,790
reduce the downside, reduce downside

844
00:54:41,790 –> 00:54:45,550
risk around challenges in life and help

845
00:54:45,550 –> 00:54:49,270
you and it, and help, if

846
00:54:49,270 –> 00:54:53,070
you follow them, move you towards a life where you can

847
00:54:53,070 –> 00:54:56,830
thrive. So people who are,

848
00:54:56,910 –> 00:55:00,390
let’s talk a little about class for a minute. Yeah. People who are in a

849
00:55:00,390 –> 00:55:03,230
certain class in America will

850
00:55:04,190 –> 00:55:07,870
make public pronouncements about certain things,

851
00:55:09,210 –> 00:55:13,010
particularly around traditions that, to your point, are focused

852
00:55:13,010 –> 00:55:15,770
around principles and practices that reduce the downside.

853
00:55:17,210 –> 00:55:21,050
They will make certain statements about those principles and practices.

854
00:55:21,210 –> 00:55:24,970
And yet when you look at their lives, there’s a massive disconnect between

855
00:55:24,970 –> 00:55:27,690
those statements and the way they live. So case in point, I’m going to give

856
00:55:27,690 –> 00:55:31,530
you an example. You will have a Hollywood couple,

857
00:55:32,250 –> 00:55:36,080
and I’m just using Hollywood as a cultural example, who

858
00:55:36,080 –> 00:55:39,920
will say something like, oh,

859
00:55:39,920 –> 00:55:43,400
God, I love this. We won’t get married until

860
00:55:43,400 –> 00:55:46,680
everyone can get married. Okay, cool,

861
00:55:47,800 –> 00:55:51,600
fine, whatever. Which is the. The stupidest

862
00:55:51,600 –> 00:55:54,360
public statement you can make. But okay, the people made that way back with prop.

863
00:55:54,440 –> 00:55:58,160
Whatever it was back in the day with California with gay marriage. Right. Okay.

864
00:55:58,160 –> 00:56:01,410
Co. And then

865
00:56:02,290 –> 00:56:06,050
the people who say this will go get

866
00:56:06,050 –> 00:56:09,850
married. At the county clerk’s office

867
00:56:09,850 –> 00:56:13,610
or something like that. I don’t know. And they will

868
00:56:13,610 –> 00:56:17,170
treat their marriage as a. As a traditional

869
00:56:17,170 –> 00:56:20,730
marriage where they wouldn’t drop the word

870
00:56:20,730 –> 00:56:23,810
divorce if you paid them

871
00:56:24,530 –> 00:56:27,650
more than they get paid to show up on a Hollywood movie set.

872
00:56:28,290 –> 00:56:32,050
They’ll be married until they kill each other. And you

873
00:56:32,050 –> 00:56:35,410
talk about narrative collapse. The part of the cultural

874
00:56:35,410 –> 00:56:39,010
narrative collapse is the elites.

875
00:56:40,610 –> 00:56:43,970
In entertainment and

876
00:56:43,970 –> 00:56:47,650
culture, even in politics, you see this, Although not as

877
00:56:47,650 –> 00:56:50,530
much, but it’s there. Business.

878
00:56:51,250 –> 00:56:54,970
You were a business podcast, too, right? They will talk

879
00:56:54,970 –> 00:56:58,090
a good game about what everybody else should do,

880
00:56:58,570 –> 00:57:02,250
but the rewards on the principles and practices they want to keep for themselves. And

881
00:57:02,250 –> 00:57:05,730
I’m not the only person pointing this out. I mean, I think Charles Murray’s running

882
00:57:05,730 –> 00:57:09,210
around. I think he’s got a new book out. He’s running around doing the interview.

883
00:57:09,290 –> 00:57:13,130
The interview. You know, fold

884
00:57:13,130 –> 00:57:16,410
a roll. Talking about this in his new. In some book that he’s written.

885
00:57:18,330 –> 00:57:22,170
Doug Wilson, the theologian out of Moscow, Idaho, has pointed this out. Before,

886
00:57:22,170 –> 00:57:25,790
the elites were cultural gatekeepers, and they pulled up all the gates and ran into

887
00:57:25,790 –> 00:57:29,630
the field and set them on fire. But then they built new gates around

888
00:57:29,630 –> 00:57:33,470
their own houses. You’ve also seen this in the last few

889
00:57:33,470 –> 00:57:36,950
years with conversation around immigration. Right?

890
00:57:37,110 –> 00:57:40,550
You know, the people who want immigration or the people who want to pay Esmeralda

891
00:57:40,870 –> 00:57:44,390
to come and babysit their kid, but.

892
00:57:44,710 –> 00:57:48,390
But they don’t care that Esmeralda is taking the job

893
00:57:48,390 –> 00:57:52,040
of some working class woman down the street because it’s a

894
00:57:52,040 –> 00:57:55,600
class issue, right? Not a Esmeralda issue.

895
00:57:56,480 –> 00:58:00,280
Okay. I’m saying all that to say this. How do

896
00:58:00,280 –> 00:58:04,040
we. How do we rebuild traditions around principles and

897
00:58:04,040 –> 00:58:07,480
practices? If to your point about the seven deadly sins, if even the

898
00:58:07,480 –> 00:58:09,760
elites won’t even say, hey.

899
00:58:11,600 –> 00:58:15,400
I understand that LGBTQ people want to get

900
00:58:15,400 –> 00:58:19,210
married. And based

901
00:58:19,210 –> 00:58:22,890
on traditional morality. The morality. I’m living

902
00:58:22,890 –> 00:58:26,690
with my wife or my husband and our 2.3 kids, and we

903
00:58:26,690 –> 00:58:30,530
won’t get divorced unless, like, until Jesus comes back, just

904
00:58:30,530 –> 00:58:34,330
to use a metaphor here. What’S working

905
00:58:34,330 –> 00:58:38,090
for us is the principle and practice that should be working. So

906
00:58:38,090 –> 00:58:41,730
it’s nice that there’s all these other people out here on the edges, but the

907
00:58:41,730 –> 00:58:45,080
Principle and practice. We’re. And by the way, you could look at our lives. We

908
00:58:45,080 –> 00:58:48,760
have millions. We live in this big house. We’re on vacations to cattle,

909
00:58:48,760 –> 00:58:52,480
cattle, whatever in Italy every year. Whatever. We have

910
00:58:52,480 –> 00:58:55,320
the things. So if you want to have these things, you got to live this

911
00:58:55,320 –> 00:58:57,800
life. But no, no, no, no, no. That’s not what the elites say. What the

912
00:58:57,800 –> 00:59:01,560
elites say is, and, and Hemingway’s group with

913
00:59:01,560 –> 00:59:04,680
the lost generation was kind of the same thing. You know, what the elites say

914
00:59:04,680 –> 00:59:06,800
is, oh well, you can live this sort of debauched. He.

915
00:59:11,610 –> 00:59:15,210
But the actual practice of their lives is not

916
00:59:15,210 –> 00:59:19,010
that. And that’s part of the narrative collapse

917
00:59:19,010 –> 00:59:22,410
that people are seeing, I think. And I don’t know how you construct

918
00:59:22,410 –> 00:59:26,010
traditions inside of that narrative collapse. I don’t know how you rebuild out of that.

919
00:59:29,210 –> 00:59:32,410
I think it’s one part of it. Yeah, I, I agree

920
00:59:32,890 –> 00:59:36,330
it’s one part of it. And I don’t think. Yeah, the answer is

921
00:59:36,840 –> 00:59:40,360
necessarily. Yeah, I mean it is rebuilding the

922
00:59:40,360 –> 00:59:43,560
traditions, but more importantly, it’s exposing the

923
00:59:43,560 –> 00:59:47,080
hypocrisy. You know, I, I always bring up the

924
00:59:48,040 –> 00:59:51,800
USC. Interest. Entrance

925
00:59:51,800 –> 00:59:55,160
exam. You know,

926
00:59:55,240 –> 00:59:58,600
entrance exam scandal. Less should

927
00:59:58,760 –> 01:00:01,720
be right. You should pay less attention

928
01:00:02,680 –> 01:00:06,360
to the people being convicted of the crimes and more

929
01:00:06,520 –> 01:00:09,640
about how it’s another example of

930
01:00:10,200 –> 01:00:13,960
laws for thee and not for me. So

931
01:00:13,960 –> 01:00:17,720
the principles of making school available to all

932
01:00:18,840 –> 01:00:22,600
is great until my daughter can’t get in. And then

933
01:00:22,680 –> 01:00:25,800
I’m going to make sure that I, I cheat the game and

934
01:00:26,520 –> 01:00:30,100
grease the. Grease the school skids of my friends

935
01:00:30,100 –> 01:00:33,900
in high places so my kids get into. Take that

936
01:00:33,900 –> 01:00:37,500
valuable space. You know, from someone

937
01:00:37,500 –> 01:00:41,300
who probably had more merit and was more deserving of

938
01:00:41,300 –> 01:00:44,460
it. You know, so for me it’s more about exposing.

939
01:00:46,220 –> 01:00:49,340
Kind of these hypocrisies and.

940
01:00:50,940 –> 01:00:54,470
Demonstrating that, you know, one is. Yeah.

941
01:00:56,310 –> 01:00:59,830
Yeah, first then you

942
01:00:59,830 –> 01:01:02,790
discredit the folks who are saying

943
01:01:03,830 –> 01:01:07,270
these things that are popular and.

944
01:01:09,510 –> 01:01:12,950
In the elite circles, you know, it’s

945
01:01:13,110 –> 01:01:16,950
luxury beliefs types of things. Right. Yeah. You expose

946
01:01:16,950 –> 01:01:18,950
them for not being what. They say.

947
01:01:20,720 –> 01:01:24,560
Not, not practicing the

948
01:01:24,720 –> 01:01:28,480
true. The good things that are practicing the good things that they

949
01:01:28,480 –> 01:01:32,160
espouse and violating the

950
01:01:33,120 –> 01:01:36,840
good things they espouse because it’s inconvenient. You know, I will

951
01:01:36,840 –> 01:01:40,240
talk about the left doing this the most, which is they love

952
01:01:40,240 –> 01:01:43,920
laws when they favor them

953
01:01:44,000 –> 01:01:47,610
and then they fight laws and want to change the rules when

954
01:01:48,410 –> 01:01:52,250
they’re inconvenient. Right. I mean the, the right does it. But

955
01:01:52,330 –> 01:01:55,610
you can always go back to. Yeah, the Bush

956
01:01:55,850 –> 01:01:59,570
Gore election and mid game they wanted to change

957
01:01:59,570 –> 01:02:03,130
all the rules because they weren’t going to get the outcome that they wanted. Right?

958
01:02:03,130 –> 01:02:06,970
Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, but I think at the

959
01:02:06,970 –> 01:02:07,690
end of the day.

960
01:02:10,970 –> 01:02:14,350
Every, if we focus on outcomes, focus on

961
01:02:14,830 –> 01:02:18,630
people who are doing well in life. And I look at doing well

962
01:02:18,630 –> 01:02:22,190
in life as am I satisfied and

963
01:02:22,350 –> 01:02:26,190
happy in my life. First look at who they are.

964
01:02:27,070 –> 01:02:30,670
Then you look at the attributes of their life.

965
01:02:31,310 –> 01:02:35,110
Did they have a good education? Do they have challenging jobs? Do

966
01:02:35,110 –> 01:02:38,950
they. Participate in, you know, in

967
01:02:38,950 –> 01:02:42,790
community and, and in service of others instead of in service to

968
01:02:42,790 –> 01:02:44,710
self? Do they have children?

969
01:02:46,950 –> 01:02:50,750
You start putting together, you know, studies

970
01:02:50,750 –> 01:02:54,510
that say, hey, who are those who are actually satisfied with

971
01:02:54,510 –> 01:02:57,430
life? And then look at those who are

972
01:02:57,670 –> 01:03:01,270
unsatisfied in life and start looking at the different

973
01:03:01,350 –> 01:03:04,950
factors and how they express community,

974
01:03:05,110 –> 01:03:06,180
how they express, express.

975
01:03:08,980 –> 01:03:12,660
What kind of education they had, what type of family life they had.

976
01:03:12,660 –> 01:03:16,460
And you can start doing a correlation, right? We’ll

977
01:03:16,460 –> 01:03:19,140
start to say, hey, maybe some of these traditions,

978
01:03:20,260 –> 01:03:23,980
principles and beliefs that, you know, that

979
01:03:23,980 –> 01:03:27,700
have been. That

980
01:03:27,860 –> 01:03:31,500
you are viewed negatively from the, you know, the cultural elite

981
01:03:31,500 –> 01:03:35,280
are actually the things that work for you and make you

982
01:03:35,280 –> 01:03:36,760
a happy, successful person.

983
01:03:38,760 –> 01:03:41,800
So one other thought I had on this, while you’ve been talking,

984
01:03:42,760 –> 01:03:46,440
if you hang out in any online. Area,

985
01:03:46,920 –> 01:03:50,640
you’ve probably seen this. I have a feeling it’s, it’s filtering

986
01:03:50,640 –> 01:03:54,160
out everywhere. It’s not just in the quote unquote, alt right spaces,

987
01:03:54,160 –> 01:03:57,960
whatever the hell that means, because other people are starting to

988
01:03:58,680 –> 01:04:01,960
write. I know, 80% of the country.

989
01:04:03,080 –> 01:04:06,820
I know, I’m, I, whatever, I roll my eyes too. So you and

990
01:04:06,820 –> 01:04:10,060
I are both of the same generation, right? Yeah. And,

991
01:04:10,540 –> 01:04:14,220
and so there is a generational thing that’s happening here and

992
01:04:14,220 –> 01:04:17,900
I wonder how much of this is. Part

993
01:04:17,900 –> 01:04:21,460
and parcel of, to your point about hypocrisy.

994
01:04:21,460 –> 01:04:24,540
Right. So one of the things that frustrates me about putting out hypocrisy, it drives

995
01:04:24,540 –> 01:04:28,340
me absolutely crazy, is I could spend an entire

996
01:04:28,340 –> 01:04:30,620
career pointing out the hypocrisies of

997
01:04:32,080 –> 01:04:35,680
political or social elites. I, I could spend all the,

998
01:04:35,840 –> 01:04:38,480
all day doing that. And.

999
01:04:40,000 –> 01:04:43,680
While interesting and probably valuable, this is my problem

1000
01:04:43,680 –> 01:04:46,400
with like Matt Walsh on the Daily Wire or

1001
01:04:47,280 –> 01:04:50,280
even Bill Barr to a certain degree, although he’s kind of backed away from that

1002
01:04:50,280 –> 01:04:53,760
because he’s going in a particular, different, particular direction on hbo.

1003
01:04:54,080 –> 01:04:56,960
But pointing out hypocrisies.

1004
01:04:59,100 –> 01:05:02,900
While interesting. Doesn’T lead

1005
01:05:02,900 –> 01:05:06,660
to where the space where I’m at. No, for me, I

1006
01:05:06,660 –> 01:05:10,460
view it as another form of deconstruction. Right. Which again is

1007
01:05:10,460 –> 01:05:14,140
fine. You need it. And. And I

1008
01:05:14,140 –> 01:05:17,900
wonder how much of this is going to naturally end as

1009
01:05:18,700 –> 01:05:22,460
we get to. And this is where the online thing

1010
01:05:22,460 –> 01:05:25,570
comes in. Now we get into the. The online

1011
01:05:26,050 –> 01:05:29,170
anticipation of the end of the baby boomer generation,

1012
01:05:29,890 –> 01:05:33,450
because if you go to certain spots online, the amount

1013
01:05:33,450 –> 01:05:33,810
of.

1014
01:05:37,250 –> 01:05:40,370
And as a person who’s Christian and as a person who.

1015
01:05:41,250 –> 01:05:44,850
Who believes in the Old Testament ideas

1016
01:05:44,850 –> 01:05:48,050
and New Testament ideas, that maybe it might be a good idea to listen to

1017
01:05:48,050 –> 01:05:51,490
your elders who actually have wisdom. The throwing out with the baby of the

1018
01:05:51,490 –> 01:05:54,770
bathwater of the boomer generation I see happening in a lot of online

1019
01:05:54,770 –> 01:05:55,410
spaces.

1020
01:05:59,010 –> 01:06:01,730
It’s one of those things that makes me internally pull up short,

1021
01:06:03,170 –> 01:06:06,890
because while I understand the gripe

1022
01:06:06,890 –> 01:06:10,690
with the boomer generation, my mother’s a boomer, my

1023
01:06:10,690 –> 01:06:14,050
father was a boomer. Like, I mean, I understand, I get it.

1024
01:06:17,340 –> 01:06:20,940
Wishing them dead. So that

1025
01:06:20,940 –> 01:06:24,540
these traditions, right, so that these traditions can somehow be

1026
01:06:24,540 –> 01:06:26,300
rebuilt in this magical vacuum.

1027
01:06:28,140 –> 01:06:31,500
Is. Is silly in the extreme.

1028
01:06:32,620 –> 01:06:36,460
And yet I see some of this penetrating out and I’m like, what

1029
01:06:36,460 –> 01:06:40,260
are we doing here? And I. I wonder if this is just the natural

1030
01:06:40,260 –> 01:06:43,500
sort of cycle part, right? Yeah, Well, I wonder if this is a natural sort

1031
01:06:43,500 –> 01:06:47,150
of cycle part, but I also wonder if it

1032
01:06:47,150 –> 01:06:50,910
isn’t a bit of. A bit of

1033
01:06:50,910 –> 01:06:54,750
an inability to do the thing that happens after deconstruction, which is

1034
01:06:55,470 –> 01:06:58,830
the hard part of proposing, like you just did,

1035
01:06:59,150 –> 01:07:02,950
proposing this is how we actually build to your point. And you

1036
01:07:02,950 –> 01:07:05,430
say this in every single episode. I’m sure you’re going to say towards the end

1037
01:07:05,430 –> 01:07:08,270
today when I ask you your final thoughts. How do we build for the good?

1038
01:07:08,350 –> 01:07:10,830
Right. How do we move forward for the future? Right.

1039
01:07:12,100 –> 01:07:15,900
You could deconstruction, point out hypocrisy. I’m sorry, I’ve used that three times. You can

1040
01:07:15,900 –> 01:07:19,660
point out hypocrisy all of the time, but it

1041
01:07:19,660 –> 01:07:23,300
doesn’t just lay at one generational, one generation’s feet. It’s

1042
01:07:23,300 –> 01:07:26,500
everywhere. And we got to be intellectually honest about that.

1043
01:07:28,100 –> 01:07:31,740
Yeah, but the way the, the way that it is addressed, this is

1044
01:07:31,740 –> 01:07:35,380
kind of done in a fragmented, unstructured

1045
01:07:35,380 –> 01:07:39,180
way with, like, identifying, you

1046
01:07:39,180 –> 01:07:42,770
know, the, the hypocrisy or inconsistencies,

1047
01:07:43,090 –> 01:07:46,050
you know, of one individual, you know,

1048
01:07:47,170 –> 01:07:50,810
instead of stepping back and looking at a full system and

1049
01:07:50,810 –> 01:07:54,490
just saying, like, it, you

1050
01:07:54,490 –> 01:07:57,810
know, what they’re saying and what they’re doing

1051
01:07:59,010 –> 01:08:02,690
are two different things. What they’re. Why don’t we focus on

1052
01:08:02,690 –> 01:08:06,450
what they’re doing and the outcomes that we’re getting and the

1053
01:08:06,450 –> 01:08:10,050
outcomes that we’re getting from what they’re doing. Doing are not helping

1054
01:08:10,050 –> 01:08:13,170
society. And I measure that by are we thriving?

1055
01:08:13,650 –> 01:08:17,450
Can we thrive without government intervention? Right.

1056
01:08:17,450 –> 01:08:20,370
Yeah. And then what are those

1057
01:08:21,010 –> 01:08:24,850
things that we are actually doing that

1058
01:08:24,850 –> 01:08:28,650
are consistent with people’s words that are having the outcomes that we

1059
01:08:28,650 –> 01:08:32,370
would measure. That, you know,

1060
01:08:32,370 –> 01:08:36,130
outcomes that demonstrate a thriving society. And we have

1061
01:08:36,130 –> 01:08:39,920
to, we have to define what thriving means. But one of the

1062
01:08:39,920 –> 01:08:42,920
elements is that I feel empowered.

1063
01:08:44,440 –> 01:08:48,040
To create a life in which I

1064
01:08:48,040 –> 01:08:51,400
can provide for my family, I can provide

1065
01:08:52,440 –> 01:08:55,880
for my community. And

1066
01:08:56,120 –> 01:08:59,960
jobs that are challenging and

1067
01:08:59,960 –> 01:09:03,320
pay me what I’m worth. At the end of the day,

1068
01:09:04,360 –> 01:09:08,200
a thriving society is one that can thrive without government intervention or

1069
01:09:08,720 –> 01:09:12,440
minimal and, you know, government intervention. I

1070
01:09:12,440 –> 01:09:15,560
think we should do a study. I think, I think we should, we should partner

1071
01:09:15,560 –> 01:09:19,280
and we should do a study. I think that that’s worth looking at because. Right.

1072
01:09:19,280 –> 01:09:20,320
I, I wanna.

1073
01:09:23,040 –> 01:09:26,080
Because one of the things, one of the things that the struggles that I’m having

1074
01:09:26,080 –> 01:09:29,920
right now is you get that, you know, they’ll call them the woke. Right.

1075
01:09:29,920 –> 01:09:33,200
I don’t know what it is. But, you know,

1076
01:09:33,440 –> 01:09:37,119
whenever there’s a single answer or single solution

1077
01:09:37,679 –> 01:09:41,279
like marriage or religion, you’re missing

1078
01:09:42,159 –> 01:09:45,679
like the nuance and you’re shutting people

1079
01:09:45,679 –> 01:09:49,519
out. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I’m

1080
01:09:49,519 –> 01:09:53,319
not saying that, like, let me be very clear. I

1081
01:09:53,319 –> 01:09:56,919
do think that I’ll be very clear and very

1082
01:09:56,919 –> 01:10:00,639
simple. Yeah. I do think that if you choose to have children.

1083
01:10:05,080 –> 01:10:08,280
The best way to raise those children

1084
01:10:09,000 –> 01:10:11,480
is in a two parent

1085
01:10:12,760 –> 01:10:15,800
male and female household.

1086
01:10:16,440 –> 01:10:19,880
Agree. Which provides stability for those children.

1087
01:10:20,840 –> 01:10:24,680
Because children, for two reasons. One, children don’t care

1088
01:10:24,680 –> 01:10:26,760
about adults. Pathologies.

1089
01:10:28,640 –> 01:10:31,280
Like. Let me be very clear about that for people listening to the show. I’ve

1090
01:10:31,280 –> 01:10:33,520
never really said this on the show before. I’ve never really kind of gone into

1091
01:10:33,520 –> 01:10:36,800
it this way. But I do say this in my private life to people.

1092
01:10:37,360 –> 01:10:40,400
Children don’t care if your marriage is on the rocks.

1093
01:10:41,440 –> 01:10:45,160
They don’t care if you don’t like that person that you married. They don’t care

1094
01:10:45,160 –> 01:10:48,640
that you woke up yesterday and you wanted to strangle that person with a pillow.

1095
01:10:48,960 –> 01:10:52,800
They don’t care. Children care about none of that. Children care about

1096
01:10:52,800 –> 01:10:55,610
stability and safety and security.

1097
01:10:56,570 –> 01:11:00,410
And in order to impart traditions to people, in order

1098
01:11:00,410 –> 01:11:04,170
to impart wisdom to people, in order to impart, as

1099
01:11:04,170 –> 01:11:07,610
Libby just said, principles and practices to people that will be

1100
01:11:07,610 –> 01:11:11,050
replicated across time, we must give those people

1101
01:11:11,290 –> 01:11:14,490
stability and security. Now, does life happen?

1102
01:11:14,970 –> 01:11:18,690
Sure. People find love and people lose Love and

1103
01:11:18,690 –> 01:11:22,530
people grow old and people die and people fall out of

1104
01:11:22,530 –> 01:11:25,600
the. Fall out of the romantic feeling and people fall back into it and people

1105
01:11:25,830 –> 01:11:29,350
get fat and people lose their hair and people have weird diseases and,

1106
01:11:30,310 –> 01:11:33,990
and you know, people have health, health, health, health, health, health struggles

1107
01:11:33,990 –> 01:11:37,630
and people, I don’t know, fall down and have accidents

1108
01:11:37,630 –> 01:11:41,350
that are completely and tragically unfortunate. And we used to

1109
01:11:41,350 –> 01:11:44,790
have a tragic view of human nature where we said, yes, all of those

1110
01:11:44,790 –> 01:11:48,590
unfortunate things will happen, all those unfortunate edge cases will happen, people

1111
01:11:48,590 –> 01:11:51,750
will get, go have a lot of money and people will go bankrupt and people

1112
01:11:51,750 –> 01:11:55,260
will have no money. And it. All of that stuff, while

1113
01:11:55,260 –> 01:11:55,980
interesting.

1114
01:11:59,820 –> 01:12:03,580
Doesn’T matter if we want to preserve the stability of traditions across time.

1115
01:12:03,820 –> 01:12:07,580
What matters if we want to preserve the stability of traditions across time is.

1116
01:12:09,740 –> 01:12:13,580
Two parent male and female married couple raising kids.

1117
01:12:13,740 –> 01:12:17,580
Now that seems reductive to our modern ears

1118
01:12:17,740 –> 01:12:21,520
and to Libby’s point, there are other factors that

1119
01:12:21,520 –> 01:12:25,000
slide into that economic, social,

1120
01:12:25,560 –> 01:12:29,320
class based, racial. All of

1121
01:12:29,320 –> 01:12:33,160
these other factors come in. And yes, we should

1122
01:12:33,160 –> 01:12:36,960
nuance all those other factors out, understanding

1123
01:12:36,960 –> 01:12:39,240
that the core principle underneath is.

1124
01:12:41,560 –> 01:12:44,840
One parent, two parents, married,

1125
01:12:45,510 –> 01:12:49,230
raising kids like this is the core principle underneath. And so,

1126
01:12:49,230 –> 01:12:52,830
and so our single mothers doing. Our single mothers doing yeoman’s work for

1127
01:12:52,830 –> 01:12:56,470
sure. Because we always have to say this. The single mom’s always entering in.

1128
01:12:56,630 –> 01:12:59,990
Oh yeah, single moms are doing yeoman’s work for sure. Okay. And.

1129
01:13:01,510 –> 01:13:04,870
Is it a tragedy that women make more than

1130
01:13:05,030 –> 01:13:08,670
women, not, not all women, but some women make more than men and men resent

1131
01:13:08,670 –> 01:13:12,110
them for it? Sure, it’s a tragedy. Is, is

1132
01:13:12,110 –> 01:13:15,910
abuse emotional, psychological, physical. Is that something that we have to deal

1133
01:13:15,910 –> 01:13:18,710
with, we should deal with as a society and culture and talk about between men

1134
01:13:18,710 –> 01:13:22,430
and women? Absolutely. And guess what? The only incubator that you’re going to

1135
01:13:22,430 –> 01:13:25,950
actually be able to have those conversations in where those conversations are actually going to

1136
01:13:25,950 –> 01:13:29,630
be meaningful and build on traditions to solve some of those problems is going to

1137
01:13:29,630 –> 01:13:33,230
be the incubator of a two parent family.

1138
01:13:34,190 –> 01:13:37,150
I don’t know why this is controversial. Well,

1139
01:13:38,220 –> 01:13:41,980
because it oversimplifies. It oversimplifies what

1140
01:13:42,140 –> 01:13:45,740
the root causes are with respect to why we don’t have,

1141
01:13:45,900 –> 01:13:49,540
you know, two family, two parent households

1142
01:13:49,540 –> 01:13:52,620
anymore. And sure, and it’s most of that

1143
01:13:52,940 –> 01:13:56,740
taxation and public policy and things like that. It is, but those things

1144
01:13:56,740 –> 01:13:59,900
are really important. And when you get into the hypocrisy of,

1145
01:14:00,540 –> 01:14:04,290
you know, like the elite who will say, you

1146
01:14:04,290 –> 01:14:08,010
know, you don’t, women like you don’t need

1147
01:14:08,010 –> 01:14:11,490
to be married, you don’t need to have children, you know, go

1148
01:14:12,210 –> 01:14:16,010
out and just sleep with everyone and get a job and take care

1149
01:14:16,010 –> 01:14:18,850
of yourself and you know, and men do the same

1150
01:14:19,650 –> 01:14:21,970
way. Yeah,

1151
01:14:23,170 –> 01:14:26,770
yeah. There’s no run right answer. But the

1152
01:14:26,770 –> 01:14:30,070
solutions are hard to

1153
01:14:30,070 –> 01:14:33,630
stomach for groups that on one side of the

1154
01:14:33,630 –> 01:14:37,030
fence they think that addressing housing

1155
01:14:37,030 –> 01:14:39,870
affordability or single family

1156
01:14:40,190 –> 01:14:43,230
households is through government funding

1157
01:14:43,710 –> 01:14:47,230
and taking on more debt and all that kind of thing.

1158
01:14:48,190 –> 01:14:50,270
And then the, you know.

1159
01:14:51,950 –> 01:14:55,550
You know, that’s who we have to deal with more is

1160
01:14:55,550 –> 01:14:59,320
around a lot of the liberal policies. Oops, sorry, did I lose

1161
01:14:59,320 –> 01:15:02,480
you? I think we did. You froze.

1162
01:15:03,200 –> 01:15:06,920
Is that me or you? Oh, there you go. Go

1163
01:15:06,920 –> 01:15:10,760
ahead. Okay. But I’m all, I am

1164
01:15:10,760 –> 01:15:13,760
all for the dual, you know, the

1165
01:15:14,640 –> 01:15:18,160
two parent household with one, you know, with one

1166
01:15:18,400 –> 01:15:22,000
income, you know, one head of household. What we

1167
01:15:22,160 –> 01:15:26,010
have to deal with is why we

1168
01:15:26,010 –> 01:15:29,770
no longer can have a single head of household able

1169
01:15:29,770 –> 01:15:33,450
to. Right. So this is where I want. These are the policies that we need

1170
01:15:33,450 –> 01:15:36,890
to address. Right. The other is around

1171
01:15:36,970 –> 01:15:39,930
housing affordability. It isn’t a 50 year

1172
01:15:40,410 –> 01:15:44,130
mortgage. That is essentially leasing. It’s how

1173
01:15:44,130 –> 01:15:47,210
do you reduce the cost of a house

1174
01:15:48,250 –> 01:15:51,810
through, you know, through regulation, like

1175
01:15:51,810 –> 01:15:55,530
reducing regulation, changing codes, all that kind of fun stuff.

1176
01:15:55,850 –> 01:15:59,690
The government answer and the rich people’s answer

1177
01:15:59,930 –> 01:16:03,610
is the one that keeps them employed and keeps you at their

1178
01:16:03,610 –> 01:16:07,210
tit, which is. Right, the tax.

1179
01:16:07,370 –> 01:16:10,890
Yeah, tax guys, bankers, they all want you to take on more

1180
01:16:10,890 –> 01:16:14,730
debt because they make a hell of a lot more money. The regulators make a

1181
01:16:14,730 –> 01:16:18,580
lot of money by staying employed. Not necessarily a lot of money,

1182
01:16:18,580 –> 01:16:21,140
but they’re employed by managing regulations.

1183
01:16:22,260 –> 01:16:26,100
You know, lawyers and accountants all

1184
01:16:26,100 –> 01:16:29,740
make a lot of money by having a lot of complexity, you know, in the

1185
01:16:29,740 –> 01:16:33,540
system. So affordability has, you know, the

1186
01:16:33,540 –> 01:16:35,780
government’s answer. And a lot of the.

1187
01:16:37,940 –> 01:16:41,790
People outside of the homeowner are incentivized to

1188
01:16:41,790 –> 01:16:45,590
just provide you, you know, provide you access with debt and not actually,

1189
01:16:45,670 –> 01:16:49,390
you know, and not actually make homes more

1190
01:16:49,390 –> 01:16:53,190
affordable by reducing overhead and regulations and

1191
01:16:53,430 –> 01:16:57,070
all the different codes that add costs to your

1192
01:16:57,070 –> 01:17:00,230
house so you can’t afford it. Then we look at

1193
01:17:00,710 –> 01:17:04,230
wages and we have the H1B visa.

1194
01:17:07,200 –> 01:17:10,920
You know, not crisis but argument that’s

1195
01:17:10,920 –> 01:17:14,480
going on right now. And any of us who have been in tech

1196
01:17:15,200 –> 01:17:18,160
know that it’s a labor arbitrage. Oh yeah,

1197
01:17:19,120 –> 01:17:22,959
right. It, it’s, it isn’t, you know, it should it. If

1198
01:17:22,959 –> 01:17:26,680
you were to use it the way that it was initially intended, it was

1199
01:17:26,680 –> 01:17:28,480
for highly skilled

1200
01:17:29,600 –> 01:17:33,400
individuals to come in, like the guys who are leading

1201
01:17:33,400 –> 01:17:36,940
Google right now. Like that. Yeah. You know,

1202
01:17:37,820 –> 01:17:41,020
a lot of, you know, a lot of the tech folks are

1203
01:17:41,340 –> 01:17:44,780
high skilled individuals from

1204
01:17:44,860 –> 01:17:48,420
formerly third world countries, but it’s a labor arbitrage

1205
01:17:48,420 –> 01:17:52,059
for 99 of the H1B visas so

1206
01:17:52,059 –> 01:17:55,500
that companies can make a lot of money for their shareholders,

1207
01:17:56,460 –> 01:17:59,980
increase and expand all of their margins. And they

1208
01:17:59,980 –> 01:18:03,830
say that it’s because the, the American workforce doesn’t want to work,

1209
01:18:04,230 –> 01:18:07,910
but they’re not willing to pay the wages that we deserve

1210
01:18:08,230 –> 01:18:11,350
and are required in order to live in the US

1211
01:18:12,230 –> 01:18:15,910
So we have a lot of compounding issues that

1212
01:18:15,910 –> 01:18:19,550
make it harder today than 20

1213
01:18:19,550 –> 01:18:23,310
years ago, than 40 years ago, than 50 years ago to have a

1214
01:18:23,310 –> 01:18:26,950
single head of household. Correct? Yes,

1215
01:18:26,950 –> 01:18:30,700
we do. And the, the mitigating

1216
01:18:30,780 –> 01:18:32,940
thing under all of those issues.

1217
01:18:37,740 –> 01:18:41,060
At the end of the, and maybe this is the, maybe this is the tension.

1218
01:18:41,060 –> 01:18:44,460
Right. I’ve been thinking about this since you’ve been talking, because none of what you’re

1219
01:18:44,460 –> 01:18:48,140
saying I disagree with. I, I, absolutely no one’s articulating

1220
01:18:48,140 –> 01:18:51,940
it. And fighting for it though. Right, right, right, right, right. It’s, it’s sort

1221
01:18:51,940 –> 01:18:55,790
of like the. The old story of the,

1222
01:18:55,790 –> 01:18:59,590
the blind or the old tail fable, whatever, of the blind

1223
01:18:59,590 –> 01:19:02,590
folks touching the elephant and one thought they were touching a tree trunk and one

1224
01:19:02,590 –> 01:19:06,270
was touching a rope or whatever and sails or whatever. Okay. And they

1225
01:19:06,270 –> 01:19:09,989
didn’t realize they were all touching the same thing. Right. There

1226
01:19:09,989 –> 01:19:13,670
are multiple, just like with, with every single other sort of

1227
01:19:13,750 –> 01:19:17,030
problem that we have, there are

1228
01:19:17,990 –> 01:19:18,790
multiple.

1229
01:19:22,150 –> 01:19:25,990
Categories of distinctions inside of the problem. Right. Which creates the nuance.

1230
01:19:25,990 –> 01:19:29,590
And you have to figure out which category or which distinction you’re going to, you’re

1231
01:19:29,590 –> 01:19:33,030
going to work on. Right. And so I get that. I, I absolutely agree with

1232
01:19:33,030 –> 01:19:36,790
that. And the counterweight or counterweight or the

1233
01:19:36,790 –> 01:19:39,110
thing on the other side of that is still.

1234
01:19:41,750 –> 01:19:45,190
The individual. And what, what disturbs me most

1235
01:19:45,350 –> 01:19:49,150
is. And this is sort of my critique

1236
01:19:49,150 –> 01:19:51,270
of folks who are critiquing the boomer generation.

1237
01:19:53,910 –> 01:19:57,750
You still have to make individual decisions in the face of

1238
01:19:57,750 –> 01:20:01,430
all those headwinds. You still do. And the best individual

1239
01:20:01,430 –> 01:20:04,950
decision that you can make, again, this is the big if,

1240
01:20:05,350 –> 01:20:08,790
if you want to raise children, which is up to you, by the way.

1241
01:20:08,790 –> 01:20:12,230
That’s not up to the state. That’s still not up to. We don’t live in

1242
01:20:12,230 –> 01:20:15,360
the Handmaid’s Tale, no matter what Margaret Atwood may think.

1243
01:20:17,120 –> 01:20:20,960
Please give me a break. We don’t live there. People still have agency.

1244
01:20:22,960 –> 01:20:26,240
People still have the ability to make decisions.

1245
01:20:26,640 –> 01:20:30,000
You still have agency with your sexuality, with Your reproductive

1246
01:20:30,000 –> 01:20:33,560
whatever, all that. Okay. And actually, weirdly enough, in this time in our

1247
01:20:33,560 –> 01:20:37,120
culture, you have more agency than ever before in the history of the world, both

1248
01:20:37,120 –> 01:20:40,290
men and women. It’s kind of ridiculous how much agency you have.

1249
01:20:40,850 –> 01:20:44,610
And so the best individual decision you

1250
01:20:44,610 –> 01:20:48,210
can make is still the reductionist one. It really still is.

1251
01:20:48,210 –> 01:20:51,570
If you want to go down the road now, now, if you don’t want to

1252
01:20:51,570 –> 01:20:54,050
go down that road, let me speak to all those folks who don’t want to

1253
01:20:54,050 –> 01:20:57,690
go down the road, the Bill Maher folks who are listening to this right now.

1254
01:20:57,690 –> 01:21:01,330
Let me speak to you. If you don’t want to go down that road, I

1255
01:21:01,330 –> 01:21:05,090
am okay with that. It is not for everybody. Please don’t do

1256
01:21:05,090 –> 01:21:08,490
it. But then I don’t want you to lecture me

1257
01:21:09,290 –> 01:21:13,130
about what I’m missing about your hedonistic lifestyle. I don’t want

1258
01:21:13,130 –> 01:21:16,930
to hear it. Exactly. It’s. It’s almost no one

1259
01:21:16,930 –> 01:21:20,730
right way. There’s no one right way. But there’s also a principle of.

1260
01:21:20,890 –> 01:21:24,610
It used to be. It used to be we. What was it that we

1261
01:21:24,610 –> 01:21:28,450
used to call homosexuality? Like back in the 19th century, Oscar Wilde was

1262
01:21:28,450 –> 01:21:32,010
famous for saying this. The love that dare not speak its name. Right.

1263
01:21:32,550 –> 01:21:36,310
Well, okay. Well, now we have all kinds of loves that won’t shut

1264
01:21:36,310 –> 01:21:40,070
the hell up. Exactly. And love.

1265
01:21:41,590 –> 01:21:45,270
Leave it in your bedroom. I don’t want to worry about it. I don’t care.

1266
01:21:46,950 –> 01:21:50,390
Right. I would rather you spend your time and your energy.

1267
01:21:50,790 –> 01:21:53,110
If you don’t want to put it towards

1268
01:21:54,310 –> 01:21:58,040
children. Fine. Put

1269
01:21:58,040 –> 01:22:01,880
it towards fixing any of the multiplicity of problems. I would

1270
01:22:01,880 –> 01:22:05,040
personally start with the tax policies that cause

1271
01:22:05,520 –> 01:22:09,040
the warping of the economic structure, the economic incentive

1272
01:22:09,040 –> 01:22:12,720
structure in the United States that actually has led to the loss

1273
01:22:12,720 –> 01:22:16,480
of a single parent. Or not. I’m sorry, single parent, Single head of household income.

1274
01:22:16,480 –> 01:22:19,560
Because it’s really the tax problems that have really led to all this. But we’ll

1275
01:22:19,560 –> 01:22:22,840
leave that aside for just a second because I’m fairly reductious when it comes to

1276
01:22:22,840 –> 01:22:26,650
that. That leaves that piece there. But anyway, go pick any of

1277
01:22:26,650 –> 01:22:30,330
the multiplicity of things that Libby just talked about and work on those. Work on

1278
01:22:30,330 –> 01:22:33,890
those for the next 50 years if you want. Housing. I

1279
01:22:33,890 –> 01:22:37,570
absolutely agree with Libby. The. How the. The. The area of the country in which

1280
01:22:37,570 –> 01:22:41,210
I live. Housing prices have increased 113

1281
01:22:41,450 –> 01:22:45,210
over five years. Now, a

1282
01:22:45,210 –> 01:22:48,650
lot of that is driven by local property

1283
01:22:49,290 –> 01:22:52,820
taxes and assessments. So it’s not

1284
01:22:52,980 –> 01:22:56,580
the federal government, it’s the local

1285
01:22:56,580 –> 01:22:59,900
city councils, it’s the unsexy school

1286
01:22:59,900 –> 01:23:03,300
boards, it’s the local

1287
01:23:03,940 –> 01:23:07,740
propositions. It’s those kinds of areas that you got

1288
01:23:07,740 –> 01:23:11,380
to get involved in. And so if you don’t want to have kids,

1289
01:23:11,620 –> 01:23:14,820
cool, don’t have children, go fix that in your local community.

1290
01:23:15,380 –> 01:23:18,180
And I don’t want to hear that you’re renting and that you don’t care and

1291
01:23:18,180 –> 01:23:21,460
property owners need to give me free rent and Da, da. No, no, no, no,

1292
01:23:22,240 –> 01:23:26,040
I don’t want to hear it. Take your energies and focus it on

1293
01:23:26,040 –> 01:23:28,400
that or focus it on, I don’t know.

1294
01:23:30,000 –> 01:23:32,880
The fixing the policies around, around

1295
01:23:34,160 –> 01:23:37,600
developers and how the regulations, to Libby’s point, how they have to

1296
01:23:37,600 –> 01:23:41,360
basically spend 60 cents on every dollar covering for regulations

1297
01:23:41,600 –> 01:23:44,480
and the other 40 cents they actually have to now figure out how to split

1298
01:23:44,480 –> 01:23:48,170
to actually build a house. You want more single family dwellings? That’s the

1299
01:23:48,170 –> 01:23:51,050
problem. You got to fix it. By the way, those regulations are at the state,

1300
01:23:51,930 –> 01:23:55,730
local and federal level and the vast majority of them are at the

1301
01:23:55,730 –> 01:23:59,370
state and local level because states still determine real estate pricing

1302
01:23:59,690 –> 01:24:03,370
and local holidays still determine real estate pricing. In the United States of America

1303
01:24:03,449 –> 01:24:07,170
anyway, we have a nationalized housing yet. Yeah. So I think we’re

1304
01:24:07,170 –> 01:24:10,570
in violent agreement. I think we are too on all

1305
01:24:10,570 –> 01:24:14,370
fronts. But you know, too often the way

1306
01:24:14,370 –> 01:24:18,090
things are presented. Not just in social media

1307
01:24:18,090 –> 01:24:21,450
but in any types of conversations, are highly

1308
01:24:21,450 –> 01:24:25,250
focused and singularly focused around what the

1309
01:24:25,250 –> 01:24:29,010
right answers are and not like barriers to

1310
01:24:29,010 –> 01:24:32,250
the, you know, to being able to achieve some of these

1311
01:24:32,970 –> 01:24:35,930
right answers. The.

1312
01:24:36,810 –> 01:24:40,490
Yeah, but I, and what they say is that

1313
01:24:40,490 –> 01:24:44,300
politicians follows culture. You know, one thing

1314
01:24:44,300 –> 01:24:47,500
I’ve been hearing from a lot of my friends who have, you know, kids in

1315
01:24:47,500 –> 01:24:51,140
high school and college, which is hard to believe because I’m not old enough

1316
01:24:51,140 –> 01:24:54,900
to have friends who have kids in high school and college, but

1317
01:24:55,060 –> 01:24:58,500
that they are. You’re starting to see kids get engaged,

1318
01:24:59,220 –> 01:25:03,020
you know, in college. You’re seeing a

1319
01:25:03,020 –> 01:25:06,260
lot more of the. And I,

1320
01:25:06,660 –> 01:25:10,020
I, I, I don’t know what all the, the drivers are, but they have like

1321
01:25:10,020 –> 01:25:13,780
these pinning ceremonies that my mom used to have. Yeah.

1322
01:25:13,780 –> 01:25:17,220
When she was, you know, in college. And now you’re seeing them again

1323
01:25:17,780 –> 01:25:21,540
like in, you know, in the 19, 20 year olds, you

1324
01:25:21,540 –> 01:25:24,820
know, so they may, yeah, this might just be that natural

1325
01:25:24,820 –> 01:25:28,660
cycle kind of playing out. But once people want

1326
01:25:28,740 –> 01:25:32,500
to have the single head of households or be able to

1327
01:25:32,500 –> 01:25:36,050
have a parent that stays home, park time and has a house that they can

1328
01:25:36,050 –> 01:25:39,690
afford, you’ll start seeing them calling on their local

1329
01:25:39,690 –> 01:25:43,450
politicians and others to make changes. What we

1330
01:25:43,450 –> 01:25:47,290
need are voices like Carol Roth’s and my own.

1331
01:25:47,450 –> 01:25:50,970
That’s, you know, I’m not at Carol Roth’s level clearly,

1332
01:25:51,210 –> 01:25:54,090
but it’s talking about what are the different types of policies

1333
01:25:55,210 –> 01:25:58,730
that could be put, put in place to make things affordable. And it’s not more

1334
01:25:58,730 –> 01:26:02,390
government, it’s less government. Well, this gets to what

1335
01:26:02,390 –> 01:26:05,070
we’re about to talk about with young men. So we’re about to make this transition.

1336
01:26:05,150 –> 01:26:07,790
So one of the things that I.

1337
01:26:10,270 –> 01:26:14,110
I think is a long term play in America is

1338
01:26:14,990 –> 01:26:18,350
the. Re.

1339
01:26:20,510 –> 01:26:24,350
Engaging or revivifying maybe of engagement

1340
01:26:24,350 –> 01:26:28,120
around, around young men. This is, this is something that’s critical, I

1341
01:26:28,120 –> 01:26:31,920
think, to getting this up off the ground in a whole lot of ways. This

1342
01:26:31,920 –> 01:26:34,360
is, this is nuanced and multi, multifaceted.

1343
01:26:36,440 –> 01:26:39,680
And A Farewell to Arms kind of opens up the door a little bit for

1344
01:26:39,680 –> 01:26:42,600
us to have this discussion. So let me, let me go back to the book

1345
01:26:42,600 –> 01:26:46,200
here. We’re gonna move on to

1346
01:26:47,160 –> 01:26:50,920
chapter 27. And in book three.

1347
01:26:56,640 –> 01:27:00,280
Frederick winds up in a little bit of, in a little bit of trouble.

1348
01:27:00,280 –> 01:27:03,760
And he, he is.

1349
01:27:05,600 –> 01:27:09,200
He has a little bit of a problem, right? In chapter 27.

1350
01:27:10,720 –> 01:27:14,080
He, he’s. He’s taking a, a load

1351
01:27:14,240 –> 01:27:17,960
basically through and through an

1352
01:27:17,960 –> 01:27:21,760
advance. It eventually, eventually becomes a retreat in essence.

1353
01:27:22,080 –> 01:27:25,780
And um, attempts to go off the road with his, with his

1354
01:27:25,780 –> 01:27:29,500
ambulance, his motor coach and winds up basically in a

1355
01:27:29,500 –> 01:27:33,020
ditch, right? And. Or winds up in a bad, a bad situation

1356
01:27:33,740 –> 01:27:37,540
with, with his other two compatriots who are also ambulance drivers,

1357
01:27:37,540 –> 01:27:40,620
right. And eventually he tries to rescue them.

1358
01:27:42,220 –> 01:27:45,260
He tries to, he tries to bring them through

1359
01:27:45,740 –> 01:27:49,570
and it becomes a real Donnie Bro Rock, right,

1360
01:27:49,570 –> 01:27:53,330
that he’s, that he’s going through, which of course winds up eventually with

1361
01:27:53,330 –> 01:27:57,010
Frederick Henry deserting his position in the

1362
01:27:57,010 –> 01:28:00,610
Italian army, meeting up with Catherine and then

1363
01:28:00,610 –> 01:28:02,850
escaping to, escaping to Switzerland.

1364
01:28:04,689 –> 01:28:08,210
But there’s something here that I, I want to point out here and it’s a

1365
01:28:08,210 –> 01:28:11,610
conversation that he’s having with, with a fellow named, a fellow named

1366
01:28:11,610 –> 01:28:15,150
Gino. And Gino is a. Well,

1367
01:28:15,150 –> 01:28:18,870
he’s, he’s also one of the drivers in,

1368
01:28:19,190 –> 01:28:22,550
in the, in the, in the ambulance corps.

1369
01:28:23,670 –> 01:28:26,990
And oh, by the way, I did. I’ve not brought up the character. I should

1370
01:28:26,990 –> 01:28:30,829
have brought the character earlier of Rinaldi. Rinaldi’s the great surgeon. The great

1371
01:28:30,829 –> 01:28:34,390
war surgeon. Right, the war surgeon character. I also by the way,

1372
01:28:34,390 –> 01:28:38,150
watched the movie of A Farewell to Arms and had Gary Cooper in it from

1373
01:28:38,150 –> 01:28:41,510
like 1930, 20 something or whatever.

1374
01:28:43,080 –> 01:28:46,880
That Farewell to Arms needs to be updated for, for today’s time.

1375
01:28:46,880 –> 01:28:49,760
They need to go back and that’s a movie you need to remake and bring

1376
01:28:49,760 –> 01:28:53,280
and bring back to today. But I

1377
01:28:53,280 –> 01:28:56,880
listened to the radio. Yeah. Farewell to

1378
01:28:56,880 –> 01:29:00,720
Arms with Clark Gable. And it was

1379
01:29:00,720 –> 01:29:04,520
the original. It is. Listening to it was so fun.

1380
01:29:04,600 –> 01:29:08,080
I could place myself at the radio listening to it. It.

1381
01:29:08,240 –> 01:29:11,400
That’s awesome. I gotta go find that. I love. I love old time radio shows.

1382
01:29:11,400 –> 01:29:15,240
I love all that. By the way, I also watched the. The movie

1383
01:29:15,240 –> 01:29:18,920
with. With my 8 year old son and it

1384
01:29:18,920 –> 01:29:22,480
was interesting. That movie actually hit him harder than most

1385
01:29:22,640 –> 01:29:26,240
things. And not because he got all the.

1386
01:29:26,400 –> 01:29:30,040
The intricacies. He didn’t. But like he was like, oh wait, the guy just like

1387
01:29:30,040 –> 01:29:32,840
the baby died and the mom died and that was. He’s like oh, that was

1388
01:29:32,840 –> 01:29:35,650
terrible. And they didn’t actually. This is the thing in the movie. It’s a movie

1389
01:29:35,650 –> 01:29:38,850
from the 1920s. So they didn’t actually show anything. Right. They just

1390
01:29:38,850 –> 01:29:42,690
intimated all of it. So there’s no graphic anything. It’s

1391
01:29:42,690 –> 01:29:46,250
just all emotive intimation. And it hit my eight year old like.

1392
01:29:46,250 –> 01:29:49,810
Like we. This way. We had two days worth of conversation off of that.

1393
01:29:50,050 –> 01:29:53,010
So anyway, don’t let your 8 year old see A Farewell to Arms with Gary

1394
01:29:53,010 –> 01:29:56,290
cooper from the 1920s. Don’t let that happen. Anyway,

1395
01:29:57,570 –> 01:30:01,250
so back to the book. So Gino’s talking with him and he’s talking about the

1396
01:30:01,250 –> 01:30:05,060
Russians and Napoleon and working out military problems

1397
01:30:05,060 –> 01:30:08,660
in the frontier. And he’s talking

1398
01:30:08,660 –> 01:30:12,460
about food, of course, because he’s a wandering epicurean. Frederick.

1399
01:30:12,620 –> 01:30:16,380
Frederick Henry is. And then we have this.

1400
01:30:16,380 –> 01:30:20,060
I want to read this piece. So

1401
01:30:20,060 –> 01:30:23,860
Frederick is responding. Yes, I said it can’t win a war, but it can

1402
01:30:23,860 –> 01:30:27,700
lose one. They’re talking about food, right. And the

1403
01:30:27,700 –> 01:30:31,340
geno responds, we won’t talk about losing. There is enough talk about losing. What has

1404
01:30:31,340 –> 01:30:34,740
been done this summer cannot have been done in vain.

1405
01:30:36,260 –> 01:30:39,820
I did not say anything. I was always embarrassed by the words of

1406
01:30:39,820 –> 01:30:43,540
sacred, glorious and sacrifice and the expression in vain.

1407
01:30:44,340 –> 01:30:48,100
We had heard them sometimes standing in the rain, almost out of earshot

1408
01:30:48,100 –> 01:30:51,700
so that only the shouted words came through. And had read them on proclamations that

1409
01:30:51,700 –> 01:30:55,300
were slapped up by Bill posters over other proclamations

1410
01:30:56,590 –> 01:31:00,430
now for a long time. And I had seen nothing sacred. And the things

1411
01:31:00,430 –> 01:31:04,270
that were glorious had no glory. And the sacrifices were like the stockyards at

1412
01:31:04,270 –> 01:31:07,630
Chicago if nothing was done with the meat except to bury him.

1413
01:31:08,270 –> 01:31:11,790
There were many words that you could not stand to hear. And finally only the

1414
01:31:11,790 –> 01:31:15,590
names of places had dignity. Certain numbers were the same way

1415
01:31:15,590 –> 01:31:19,390
in certain dates. And these with the names of the places were all you could

1416
01:31:19,390 –> 01:31:22,030
say and have them mean anything.

1417
01:31:23,090 –> 01:31:26,530
Abstract words such as glory, honor, courage or

1418
01:31:26,530 –> 01:31:30,050
hallow were obscene beside the concrete. Names of villages,

1419
01:31:30,610 –> 01:31:34,330
the numbers of roads, the names of rivers, the numbers of regiments and

1420
01:31:34,330 –> 01:31:38,170
the dates. Gino was a patriot, so he said

1421
01:31:38,170 –> 01:31:41,810
things that separated us sometimes, but he was also a fine boy and I

1422
01:31:41,810 –> 01:31:45,090
understood his being a patriot. He was born one.

1423
01:31:45,810 –> 01:31:49,330
He left with Peduzzi in the car to go back to Gorizia.

1424
01:31:53,050 –> 01:31:56,730
That’s one of those moments inside of a chapter where Hemingway

1425
01:31:56,730 –> 01:32:00,330
drops in some of the ideas that we’ve been talking about today

1426
01:32:00,410 –> 01:32:04,090
in a much more literary fashion. The skepticism around

1427
01:32:04,090 –> 01:32:07,770
war, the skepticism around honor and glory. But also

1428
01:32:07,930 –> 01:32:11,450
he’s dropping in something I think is critical to the understanding

1429
01:32:11,450 –> 01:32:14,970
overall of A Farewell to Arms. He’s dropping in

1430
01:32:14,970 –> 01:32:18,690
the. The growing maturity of. Of a.

1431
01:32:18,690 –> 01:32:22,410
Of a young man who’s been through some experiences moving from

1432
01:32:22,410 –> 01:32:26,250
a place where those experiences were sold to him one way and

1433
01:32:26,250 –> 01:32:29,930
continue to be sold to him one way. And now he’s realizing what he’s

1434
01:32:29,930 –> 01:32:31,570
actually bought off the shelf.

1435
01:32:34,450 –> 01:32:37,450
As I put in my notes, it’s exciting to kill people and break things. And

1436
01:32:37,450 –> 01:32:40,730
this is of course the thing that people are all that young men are sold

1437
01:32:40,730 –> 01:32:43,980
on when they go to war. But that excitement and energy,

1438
01:32:44,460 –> 01:32:48,100
when the system of controlling those energies corrodes and the

1439
01:32:48,100 –> 01:32:51,900
substitutes are hedonistic and self serving, that excitement and energy

1440
01:32:51,900 –> 01:32:55,700
have to go somewhere. We don’t really

1441
01:32:55,700 –> 01:32:59,540
know why Hemingway went to war to be an ambulance driver. Maybe he didn’t. And

1442
01:32:59,540 –> 01:33:03,300
I love this quote from, from Keegan in the First World War. Maybe he didn’t

1443
01:33:03,300 –> 01:33:07,060
want to be found wanting in his commitments to honor and duty. Maybe

1444
01:33:07,060 –> 01:33:10,820
he was bored and stifled in Oak Park, Illinois with his mom, whom

1445
01:33:10,820 –> 01:33:14,640
he had constantly problems with in his dad, who eventually,

1446
01:33:14,640 –> 01:33:18,400
many years later, would commit suicide. Maybe he

1447
01:33:18,400 –> 01:33:22,200
wanted adventure, which again is something that a lot

1448
01:33:22,200 –> 01:33:26,040
of young men want. Ernest Hemingway had this great

1449
01:33:26,040 –> 01:33:29,840
quote about war. He said this. When you go to war as a boy, you

1450
01:33:29,840 –> 01:33:33,600
have a great illusion of immortality. Other people get

1451
01:33:33,600 –> 01:33:37,440
killed, not you. Then when you were badly wounded, the first time you lose

1452
01:33:37,440 –> 01:33:40,630
that illusion and you know it can happen to you.

1453
01:33:41,830 –> 01:33:45,670
Hemingway was injured in the war and he did lose

1454
01:33:45,670 –> 01:33:48,870
his illusions, as a lot of young men do. And,

1455
01:33:49,670 –> 01:33:53,430
and that gets to the link that ties this to Sebastian Younger’s

1456
01:33:53,430 –> 01:33:57,070
war. The First World War and even to the Earth is All that Lasts. By

1457
01:33:57,070 –> 01:34:00,830
Mark Lee Gardner. Young men. Young men are still

1458
01:34:00,830 –> 01:34:03,630
the ones that march off to war. Young men are still the ones that we

1459
01:34:03,630 –> 01:34:06,950
demand fight wars. Yes. We are making

1460
01:34:08,150 –> 01:34:11,990
tacit moves in our culture, as are the Canadians and the great Britons,

1461
01:34:11,990 –> 01:34:15,750
towards conscripting young women. We are sort of wandering culturally in that

1462
01:34:15,750 –> 01:34:19,430
direction, and I am not in favor of that.

1463
01:34:19,750 –> 01:34:23,150
I’ll just go on record as saying that I think that’s an

1464
01:34:23,150 –> 01:34:26,950
incredibly bad idea. And will

1465
01:34:26,950 –> 01:34:29,830
have incredibly negative consequences if we do go down that road.

1466
01:34:32,160 –> 01:34:35,880
But it does follow logically, as I

1467
01:34:35,880 –> 01:34:39,440
said in the Earth at All that lasts episode 173.

1468
01:34:40,000 –> 01:34:43,400
It does follow logically from girl

1469
01:34:43,400 –> 01:34:46,880
bossing and feminism and everything else. It

1470
01:34:46,880 –> 01:34:49,760
follows logically on why not conscription?

1471
01:34:51,600 –> 01:34:54,000
And yet. And yet.

1472
01:34:56,010 –> 01:34:58,850
Young men are still the ones that we are going to look at out of

1473
01:34:58,850 –> 01:35:01,290
the corner of our eyes if they don’t jump in front.

1474
01:35:02,410 –> 01:35:06,210
If young women are conscripted, young men will still be the ones who will be

1475
01:35:06,210 –> 01:35:09,890
thought less of and their status will be reduced. We see this

1476
01:35:09,890 –> 01:35:13,090
happened in every. This has happened in every major war that any country has ever

1477
01:35:13,090 –> 01:35:16,890
fought in. The young men who allow the young women to go do that

1478
01:35:16,890 –> 01:35:19,930
thing are thought of as being less

1479
01:35:20,650 –> 01:35:23,930
not only among their own patriots, their own peers,

1480
01:35:24,710 –> 01:35:28,110
but also among the young women and not the ones who are

1481
01:35:28,110 –> 01:35:31,350
necessarily being conscripted and going to war.

1482
01:35:32,870 –> 01:35:36,390
Why am I going down this road with this thought? Because we have to

1483
01:35:36,390 –> 01:35:39,270
answer the question, and it is a question for. For Libby,

1484
01:35:40,310 –> 01:35:42,870
as we sort of round the corner here on this episode.

1485
01:35:44,150 –> 01:35:46,710
Why do young men

1486
01:35:47,750 –> 01:35:51,480
fight? Now, I

1487
01:35:51,480 –> 01:35:54,320
grew up without brothers. I. I grew up in a. I grew up in a

1488
01:35:54,320 –> 01:35:58,040
family of sisters. So, I mean, I fought my sisters a little bit

1489
01:35:58,040 –> 01:35:59,680
here and there, but at a certain point.

1490
01:36:02,000 –> 01:36:05,120
Like, you just. You’re not gonna hit a girl. Like, that’s just. That’s how I

1491
01:36:05,120 –> 01:36:08,800
was raised. Like, it’s just not gonna happen. Right. And. And there was a narrow

1492
01:36:08,800 –> 01:36:11,280
window where we could tussle between like 8 and 10.

1493
01:36:12,640 –> 01:36:15,920
But the narrow. I mean, that. That window’s long since closed.

1494
01:36:16,890 –> 01:36:20,530
And. And I have an older sister who’s like seven years older than me. And

1495
01:36:20,530 –> 01:36:23,610
we did get into it. Like, seven years was like, that was. That was enough

1496
01:36:23,610 –> 01:36:26,730
to where, like, okay, now we’re gonna have some even playing field. But even that

1497
01:36:27,210 –> 01:36:30,930
stopped. I mean, please give me a break. So I

1498
01:36:30,930 –> 01:36:34,690
never had a brother. I didn’t. I

1499
01:36:34,690 –> 01:36:38,290
didn’t learn necessarily all that stuff about male. Male

1500
01:36:38,290 –> 01:36:42,050
relationships until I was into my 20s and 30s and the

1501
01:36:42,050 –> 01:36:45,790
nature of that and the complications of that and all that. I don’t know

1502
01:36:45,790 –> 01:36:49,590
what your experience was being raised Libby, and what you came up in.

1503
01:36:50,710 –> 01:36:54,350
But I have some ideas on why young men fight. But I want to know

1504
01:36:54,350 –> 01:36:57,070
what yours are. Why? Why do they. Because we have to kind of figure this

1505
01:36:57,070 –> 01:36:59,510
out so we can figure out how to channel these energies into

1506
01:37:00,630 –> 01:37:02,870
maybe other productive things other than just war.

1507
01:37:07,190 –> 01:37:10,640
As I cited earlier. It’s a 2 billion year,

1508
01:37:11,200 –> 01:37:13,440
you know, wiring. Yeah.

1509
01:37:15,040 –> 01:37:18,640
Driven by the desire to live

1510
01:37:19,040 –> 01:37:22,080
and protect. First starting with oneself,

1511
01:37:23,200 –> 01:37:26,240
secondly, with one’s seed. So

1512
01:37:27,600 –> 01:37:30,160
in the world, in a time when.

1513
01:37:32,320 –> 01:37:35,920
That. Has less need or,

1514
01:37:36,230 –> 01:37:39,990
you know, there’s less practical purpose for that direction, you

1515
01:37:39,990 –> 01:37:43,790
know, we live in a safer world and protecting your seed is, you know,

1516
01:37:43,790 –> 01:37:47,110
is not necessarily physical. We still have

1517
01:37:47,350 –> 01:37:50,790
that desire and that energy to protect

1518
01:37:51,510 –> 01:37:55,230
is still there. You know, testosterone

1519
01:37:55,230 –> 01:37:58,950
is, you know, is, it’s genetic through

1520
01:37:58,950 –> 01:38:01,950
the DNA, hormones, all of that.

1521
01:38:05,300 –> 01:38:08,900
I had a brother. Who

1522
01:38:09,140 –> 01:38:12,820
yeah was younger than me and you know, and we had at it.

1523
01:38:13,780 –> 01:38:17,380
But I think what I my understanding

1524
01:38:17,460 –> 01:38:21,100
and you know, and even I had two younger brother, I have three

1525
01:38:21,100 –> 01:38:24,620
younger brothers. But my understanding with most

1526
01:38:24,620 –> 01:38:27,300
guys is that once they get hit and it hurts.

1527
01:38:29,470 –> 01:38:33,190
You know, they kind of stop, you know, really egging on

1528
01:38:33,190 –> 01:38:36,670
the others to fight and it becomes more. Oh yeah, right.

1529
01:38:36,750 –> 01:38:40,390
Because once it gets real, it’s like I kind of know what the

1530
01:38:40,390 –> 01:38:43,790
power I have and what others have. And

1531
01:38:43,950 –> 01:38:47,550
that’s a good tension to know always is

1532
01:38:47,710 –> 01:38:51,550
that, you know, fighting kind of sucks but I’m willing to do it

1533
01:38:52,190 –> 01:38:55,720
right. You know, women don’t have that

1534
01:38:55,720 –> 01:38:58,960
as, as much and

1535
01:38:59,360 –> 01:39:03,120
that, you know, women actually, if you’ve seen a

1536
01:39:03,120 –> 01:39:06,160
girl fight, like they’re 10 times worse than a guy fight.

1537
01:39:06,640 –> 01:39:10,480
Oh yeah. There’s no, there’s no governor on it. That’s what I. There’s

1538
01:39:10,480 –> 01:39:14,320
no governor. There’s no governor. I don’t. And I, there’s no

1539
01:39:14,320 –> 01:39:18,160
governor on it. I don’t understand it. Like we, we can go into that

1540
01:39:18,240 –> 01:39:21,960
for the most part. But most women keep

1541
01:39:21,960 –> 01:39:24,480
it to words and not physicality.

1542
01:39:26,720 –> 01:39:30,240
But men have a DNA driven need

1543
01:39:30,640 –> 01:39:34,160
to fight. That energy needs to be directed

1544
01:39:34,400 –> 01:39:38,080
when there’s no need to protect anymore. And that’s what

1545
01:39:38,160 –> 01:39:41,920
sports are. Right. That’s

1546
01:39:41,920 –> 01:39:45,760
what you know, as you do what Joe Rogan does.

1547
01:39:45,760 –> 01:39:49,150
What you know, Adam Corolla

1548
01:39:49,790 –> 01:39:53,150
is every single day you challenge yourself

1549
01:39:53,150 –> 01:39:56,430
physically. And

1550
01:39:56,830 –> 01:39:59,790
your redirect. There’s two things that are done by that.

1551
01:40:00,830 –> 01:40:04,030
One is you get the physical release that you need,

1552
01:40:05,470 –> 01:40:07,710
you know, instead of having it pent up.

1553
01:40:09,790 –> 01:40:13,440
But two, you also know

1554
01:40:13,760 –> 01:40:17,440
what you can, your body can be put through so you

1555
01:40:17,440 –> 01:40:19,600
walk with more confidence in this world.

1556
01:40:21,520 –> 01:40:25,280
Around, you know, kind of your power and all the risks out there.

1557
01:40:25,360 –> 01:40:28,960
You have a sense of what a relative risk is to you

1558
01:40:28,960 –> 01:40:31,520
and, you know, what you’re willing to, you can put yourself through

1559
01:40:32,800 –> 01:40:36,280
and survive. Most people who don’t put themselves through any sort of

1560
01:40:36,280 –> 01:40:39,940
physical, like, act every day, I find those

1561
01:40:39,940 –> 01:40:42,700
to be the most to don’t understand risk at all

1562
01:40:43,500 –> 01:40:46,860
and are, you know, are kind of live in fear

1563
01:40:47,420 –> 01:40:51,140
that all risks are similar and don’t have the ability to

1564
01:40:51,140 –> 01:40:54,940
like, distinguish one type of risk from another. But

1565
01:40:55,100 –> 01:40:58,460
that’s a, that’s a nice little segue that I wanted to take,

1566
01:40:58,940 –> 01:41:02,460
but bring it back to why do men fight? And then how do we, you

1567
01:41:02,460 –> 01:41:05,830
know, how do we direct it? You know, direct that internal energy.

1568
01:41:06,310 –> 01:41:10,150
It’s not stifling it and telling them to sit and be quiet. It’s not

1569
01:41:10,150 –> 01:41:13,630
drugging them with add, you know, adhd,

1570
01:41:13,630 –> 01:41:17,390
drugs. It’s about getting physical

1571
01:41:17,390 –> 01:41:21,110
in a constructive way that’s empowering and

1572
01:41:21,110 –> 01:41:24,710
productive. So I

1573
01:41:24,710 –> 01:41:28,230
think, remember I said at the end of our last sort of segment there,

1574
01:41:28,870 –> 01:41:32,130
I said I was going to tie this into, into something that I see happening

1575
01:41:32,130 –> 01:41:35,530
at a more of a. Economic

1576
01:41:36,010 –> 01:41:39,690
level. Right. So, yeah, over the

1577
01:41:39,690 –> 01:41:42,090
next three to four years.

1578
01:41:45,210 –> 01:41:48,650
To the end of this, this current administration and, and maybe a little bit into

1579
01:41:48,650 –> 01:41:52,290
the next one, because it takes a little while for a

1580
01:41:52,290 –> 01:41:56,090
differing party administration to unwind whatever the previous administration has done.

1581
01:41:56,450 –> 01:41:59,010
And certain things can’t, certain bells can’t be unrung.

1582
01:42:00,450 –> 01:42:04,130
But the bell that I think has been rung by

1583
01:42:04,370 –> 01:42:06,370
the current administration in the White House.

1584
01:42:08,210 –> 01:42:11,850
Is the bell that if taken

1585
01:42:11,850 –> 01:42:14,130
to its logical conclusion and allowed to actually

1586
01:42:15,570 –> 01:42:19,090
be the thing. It is the bell that will,

1587
01:42:19,170 –> 01:42:22,940
that will redirect young men’s energies towards

1588
01:42:23,740 –> 01:42:27,580
work. And I’m not talking about work in

1589
01:42:28,220 –> 01:42:31,580
education or healthcare or finance or consulting.

1590
01:42:32,700 –> 01:42:36,140
While those areas are interesting, I came out of education myself.

1591
01:42:36,620 –> 01:42:40,340
While those areas are interesting, those are not the areas

1592
01:42:40,340 –> 01:42:44,140
that Libby is talking, that Libby sort of tangentially is talking about even that

1593
01:42:44,140 –> 01:42:47,500
I’m talking, I’m talking about manufacturing, construction,

1594
01:42:48,040 –> 01:42:51,680
the trades. Those are

1595
01:42:51,680 –> 01:42:55,000
areas where, like in my backyard,

1596
01:42:55,960 –> 01:42:59,720
if an AI company is going to build a

1597
01:42:59,720 –> 01:43:03,160
data center, they’re going to need grown men

1598
01:43:03,400 –> 01:43:07,120
to move concrete around. And by

1599
01:43:07,120 –> 01:43:10,760
the way, are those grown men going to be immigrants or

1600
01:43:11,080 –> 01:43:14,920
Americans? That’s a whole other kind of discussion. But it

1601
01:43:14,920 –> 01:43:17,760
is part of the discussion. And at the end of the day,

1602
01:43:19,120 –> 01:43:22,600
it’s still going to be young men moving concrete around. I don’t care what you

1603
01:43:22,600 –> 01:43:24,080
talk about egalitarianism.

1604
01:43:26,720 –> 01:43:29,840
I have known in my life and I have seen in my life

1605
01:43:30,480 –> 01:43:34,080
very, very few women on construction sites.

1606
01:43:35,360 –> 01:43:37,280
It’s 90% men.

1607
01:43:39,120 –> 01:43:42,570
And it’s 90% young men.

1608
01:43:43,770 –> 01:43:47,410
Because your body collapses. My dad did

1609
01:43:47,410 –> 01:43:50,850
construction for a little while, my stepfather did construction for the

1610
01:43:50,850 –> 01:43:54,410
majority of his career. Your body just collapses.

1611
01:43:54,650 –> 01:43:57,930
It just, it just can’t handle it. And so

1612
01:43:58,490 –> 01:44:02,130
those energies have to be directed to Libby’s

1613
01:44:02,130 –> 01:44:05,610
point into a place that’s fruitful. And I can’t think of a more fruitful place

1614
01:44:06,110 –> 01:44:09,710
for those energies to be directed that into the building of a

1615
01:44:09,710 –> 01:44:13,270
base in America that’s not located in some place

1616
01:44:13,270 –> 01:44:17,030
like, I don’t know, China, just to pick an

1617
01:44:17,030 –> 01:44:20,750
example, or Vietnam or Laos or Korea.

1618
01:44:20,750 –> 01:44:24,350
And by the way, I’m not ignorant of the fact that we will still have

1619
01:44:24,350 –> 01:44:28,150
global, global, you know, global manufacturing, global industry

1620
01:44:28,150 –> 01:44:31,870
and things like that. I’m not ignorant to that fact, but reassuring

1621
01:44:32,110 –> 01:44:35,940
American manufacturing is definitely something this administration

1622
01:44:36,180 –> 01:44:40,020
clearly is taking very seriously. And that’s with tariffs and

1623
01:44:40,020 –> 01:44:42,860
a whole bunch of other different things are going that are, that are happening. I

1624
01:44:42,860 –> 01:44:46,660
think the knock on effect from that will be to Libby’s point,

1625
01:44:47,060 –> 01:44:50,500
reactivating that 2 billion year wiring

1626
01:44:51,460 –> 01:44:54,660
that still is, is inside of, is inside of young men.

1627
01:44:58,740 –> 01:45:00,430
Now with that being said.

1628
01:45:02,830 –> 01:45:04,510
I guess the other question is.

1629
01:45:07,790 –> 01:45:10,670
And Younger brought this up in his book War. He said this.

1630
01:45:12,190 –> 01:45:15,629
I brought this idea. And it is also reflected in A Farewell to Arms.

1631
01:45:16,910 –> 01:45:20,710
Young men need to be in a place where there’s no possibility of

1632
01:45:20,710 –> 01:45:24,310
booze, no possibility of women. There’s just

1633
01:45:24,310 –> 01:45:28,080
the, the work you do and then that’s it. And I think we

1634
01:45:28,080 –> 01:45:31,800
as a culture. I don’t know how I’ll

1635
01:45:31,800 –> 01:45:33,880
frame it as and I don’t know how I don’t know how we as a

1636
01:45:33,880 –> 01:45:37,560
culture construct those kinds of environments where men can focus like that

1637
01:45:38,920 –> 01:45:42,759
outside of a military structure. I have long thought

1638
01:45:42,760 –> 01:45:46,280
that we need to bring back single gender or

1639
01:45:46,280 –> 01:45:50,080
single sex learning environments. I’ve long been in

1640
01:45:50,080 –> 01:45:53,930
favor of that. I, I don’t think I, I don’t think that’s

1641
01:45:53,930 –> 01:45:57,650
a. I think we’ve got with a pendulum has swung so far in the opposite

1642
01:45:57,650 –> 01:46:01,250
direction. I don’t think bringing that pendulum back to the other direction is going to

1643
01:46:01,570 –> 01:46:05,130
be detrimental in any kind of meaningful way. At least

1644
01:46:05,130 –> 01:46:08,850
not current, not. No, no, sorry. The detriment won’t be seen

1645
01:46:08,930 –> 01:46:12,570
from that pendulum coming back in that way for long, until

1646
01:46:12,570 –> 01:46:16,090
long after we’re gone. So folks that are going to live there could deal with

1647
01:46:16,090 –> 01:46:17,730
that then. My point is.

1648
01:46:19,230 –> 01:46:22,910
Rejiggering hierarchical Structures and understanding that

1649
01:46:23,070 –> 01:46:26,550
male hierarchies matter quite a bit and that male

1650
01:46:26,550 –> 01:46:29,150
hierarchies are determined by, to Libby’s point.

1651
01:46:31,150 –> 01:46:34,870
Force and the exertion

1652
01:46:34,870 –> 01:46:38,590
of sometimes pain. These things

1653
01:46:38,670 –> 01:46:42,350
are things that we need to reiterate. I think we need to reiterate

1654
01:46:42,350 –> 01:46:46,090
to young men. And I think it’s going to

1655
01:46:46,090 –> 01:46:49,730
happen, but I don’t think it’s going to happen because of a public policy

1656
01:46:49,890 –> 01:46:53,730
decision. I think it’s going to happen because of just economic

1657
01:46:53,890 –> 01:46:57,650
circumstances and cultural circumstances. I think there will be a shift

1658
01:46:57,650 –> 01:46:59,810
there. I don’t know what you think about that, but.

1659
01:47:03,170 –> 01:47:06,770
No, I, I agree. The loss

1660
01:47:06,770 –> 01:47:10,380
of vocations or the shaming of vocational work,

1661
01:47:10,380 –> 01:47:14,100
I think was a big detriment to our young men. There’s

1662
01:47:14,100 –> 01:47:15,420
a. Yeah, there’s a lot.

1663
01:47:19,660 –> 01:47:23,460
The whole elitist shaming of people who work with their hands, to

1664
01:47:23,460 –> 01:47:25,980
me is just. It’s very sad.

1665
01:47:27,100 –> 01:47:30,300
Just because you want to work from your hand, with your hands and find it

1666
01:47:30,460 –> 01:47:34,220
more fulfilling than working in a cubicle at a,

1667
01:47:34,460 –> 01:47:37,560
at a laptop doesn’t mean that you’re stupid

1668
01:47:38,120 –> 01:47:41,400
and have less than. Or even if you’re, you know, or even, you know,

1669
01:47:41,720 –> 01:47:44,520
the corner. Corner office is the big exec.

1670
01:47:46,120 –> 01:47:49,880
And there are. Yes, I think

1671
01:47:49,880 –> 01:47:53,480
some of the most gratifying work is creating and building

1672
01:47:53,560 –> 01:47:56,840
things that last and endure. And you do that through

1673
01:47:56,840 –> 01:48:00,600
vocational work much more so than, you

1674
01:48:00,600 –> 01:48:04,290
know, through these digital, you know, digital companies that are out

1675
01:48:04,290 –> 01:48:07,970
there. I think both, both are, Are beautiful.

1676
01:48:08,130 –> 01:48:11,850
But the shaming of the vocational work, I think has done a

1677
01:48:11,850 –> 01:48:15,610
lot to destroy, you know, men and redo

1678
01:48:15,610 –> 01:48:19,410
and not provide that creative physical outlet

1679
01:48:19,570 –> 01:48:23,130
that’s productive and fulfilling, and

1680
01:48:23,130 –> 01:48:25,410
bringing that back will be very, very positive.

1681
01:48:26,850 –> 01:48:30,140
I agree. I agree. Yeah. Yeah.

1682
01:48:30,860 –> 01:48:34,460
Well, we’ve. We’ve reached the end of our time here together.

1683
01:48:36,700 –> 01:48:40,380
So let me. You know, you’re all

1684
01:48:40,380 –> 01:48:43,900
you are you. Your, Your classic thing is talking about building for the good. That’s

1685
01:48:43,900 –> 01:48:46,700
sort of your, Your classic thing when you come on this show.

1686
01:48:48,140 –> 01:48:51,740
How can leaders, you know, business leaders, cultural leaders,

1687
01:48:52,940 –> 01:48:55,970
begin the process of restoring what we’ve lost as a culture?

1688
01:48:57,730 –> 01:49:01,290
We’ve kind of had a love. We said we were in violent agreement. I love

1689
01:49:01,290 –> 01:49:05,090
that I might borrow that we’re in violent,

1690
01:49:05,170 –> 01:49:07,970
violent agreement about many of these areas.

1691
01:49:09,410 –> 01:49:13,050
There may be some disagreement, but I think we probably agree more than we disagree.

1692
01:49:13,050 –> 01:49:16,890
We might disagree in the, in the minutia of the details, maybe, but. But

1693
01:49:16,890 –> 01:49:20,450
not in the overall broad swath. But how do

1694
01:49:20,450 –> 01:49:23,940
leaders who, to your point, maybe are

1695
01:49:24,100 –> 01:49:27,860
building a carpentry Business. Right. In our listing today. Or

1696
01:49:28,900 –> 01:49:32,500
are aiming at the corner office and are

1697
01:49:32,740 –> 01:49:36,420
seeing these young men and young women, but

1698
01:49:36,820 –> 01:49:40,500
specifically for today, these young men sort of milling around, you

1699
01:49:40,500 –> 01:49:44,020
know, coming in, going to work, doing their work,

1700
01:49:44,580 –> 01:49:48,190
and then going home, playing video games, watching porn, coming back, wash,

1701
01:49:48,190 –> 01:49:51,830
rinse, repeat. Right. How do we. How do we

1702
01:49:51,830 –> 01:49:54,110
as leaders, male and female leaders,

1703
01:49:55,070 –> 01:49:58,830
connect in order to build and in order to

1704
01:49:58,830 –> 01:50:01,990
restore what we may have lost as a culture. How do we do that in

1705
01:50:01,990 –> 01:50:05,750
order to build for the good? Yeah. And, you

1706
01:50:05,750 –> 01:50:09,470
know. Yes. My recurring theme is like, model

1707
01:50:09,550 –> 01:50:13,230
the good. Don’t get

1708
01:50:13,230 –> 01:50:17,010
distracted with the noise about what can’t be done. Focus on

1709
01:50:17,010 –> 01:50:20,130
what can be. And as the leaders,

1710
01:50:21,330 –> 01:50:25,050
our power is in questions. And are we

1711
01:50:25,050 –> 01:50:28,770
asking the right questions? And I have up on my wall,

1712
01:50:29,570 –> 01:50:31,490
like, what did you create today?

1713
01:50:34,930 –> 01:50:38,570
What did you create today? Then other

1714
01:50:38,570 –> 01:50:42,090
questions. What did you improve today? Not necessarily not with

1715
01:50:42,090 –> 01:50:45,820
yourself, but in the world. What did you build?

1716
01:50:45,900 –> 01:50:49,460
What did you create? What act of kindness did you show

1717
01:50:49,460 –> 01:50:53,060
today? Yeah. And so those are probably

1718
01:50:53,060 –> 01:50:56,860
three great questions to ask. And

1719
01:50:56,860 –> 01:51:00,580
just focus on, you know, there. It doesn’t have to

1720
01:51:00,580 –> 01:51:04,380
be big. It’s small. Yeah. Small moments that compound

1721
01:51:04,860 –> 01:51:06,940
and will help you.

1722
01:51:08,710 –> 01:51:12,430
Model for. For the world what. Where

1723
01:51:12,430 –> 01:51:14,710
we need to go and what needs to be done.

1724
01:51:17,030 –> 01:51:20,870
I love that. I would add, as well as we

1725
01:51:20,870 –> 01:51:24,630
close. I think

1726
01:51:24,630 –> 01:51:28,110
leaders have to employ the power of

1727
01:51:28,110 –> 01:51:31,350
observation to see where those

1728
01:51:31,590 –> 01:51:35,310
moments are. This is more than just curiosity.

1729
01:51:35,310 –> 01:51:39,000
Right. This is a combination. Observation is a combination of curiosity and

1730
01:51:39,000 –> 01:51:41,560
comprehension put together

1731
01:51:42,760 –> 01:51:46,440
and then able to. Push that forward

1732
01:51:46,520 –> 01:51:50,200
and see where the possibilities are, not

1733
01:51:50,200 –> 01:51:53,880
necessarily in a process or a system, but where the possibilities are

1734
01:51:53,880 –> 01:51:56,920
in people, where the possibilities are in

1735
01:51:56,920 –> 01:52:00,720
relationships. If we want to mentor people who

1736
01:52:00,720 –> 01:52:04,360
are younger than us, we have to build relationships with them.

1737
01:52:05,320 –> 01:52:09,040
That is one of the things that’s weirdly lacking in A

1738
01:52:09,040 –> 01:52:12,840
Farewell to Arms. There’s a relationship,

1739
01:52:12,840 –> 01:52:16,280
obviously, between Frederick and Catherine. That’s the driver of the novel.

1740
01:52:17,080 –> 01:52:20,360
But there’s little relationship between the

1741
01:52:20,600 –> 01:52:24,120
organizing elites of the war, even down to the

1742
01:52:24,120 –> 01:52:27,840
generals and the lieutenants. There’s very little relationship between

1743
01:52:27,840 –> 01:52:31,410
them and the men actually fighting. And

1744
01:52:31,730 –> 01:52:34,850
this is something I think that, again,

1745
01:52:36,130 –> 01:52:39,970
leaders have to be consistently aware of around how they’re building

1746
01:52:39,970 –> 01:52:43,770
those relationships, how they’re valuing those relationships, and how they’re making those

1747
01:52:43,770 –> 01:52:47,170
relationships meaningful. And it starts with observation,

1748
01:52:47,650 –> 01:52:50,770
a combination of curiosity and comprehension.

1749
01:52:51,730 –> 01:52:55,370
And. And that is how I think we will be able to

1750
01:52:55,370 –> 01:52:59,000
channel the energies of young men, channel the energies of young

1751
01:52:59,000 –> 01:53:02,360
women, and be able to restore

1752
01:53:03,640 –> 01:53:04,760
and rebuild.

1753
01:53:07,800 –> 01:53:11,560
For the next turning at the dawn of the next turning,

1754
01:53:11,640 –> 01:53:14,280
which is where I think we are at right now.

1755
01:53:16,360 –> 01:53:20,040
I would like to thank Libby Unger for coming on our podcast today.

1756
01:53:20,840 –> 01:53:24,480
Always a pleasure to talk with her. Always a pleasure to have her on.

1757
01:53:25,680 –> 01:53:29,440
And, yeah, you’re welcome. And. And with

1758
01:53:29,440 –> 01:53:32,560
that, well. We’Re out.