Leadership Lessons From The Great Books – (Bonus) – Extreme Ownership: How the US Navy Seals Lead and Win by Jocko Willink and Leif Babin w/Atlas Aultman

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Hello. My name is Jesan Sorrells, and this is the

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Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast.

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Bonus. There’s no book reading usually

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on these bonus episodes. These

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are, in general, interviews, rants, raves, insights, and other

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gentle and sometimes not so gentle audio musings and

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conversations with interesting people about leadership.

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Because listening to me and an interesting guest talk about

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leadership for at least a couple of hours is better than reading and trying

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to understand yet another business

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book. And today, of course, because

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I created the format, we’re gonna break the format. I feel like Pablo

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Picasso a little bit. We’re gonna break our rule

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about covering business books, and we are going to talk today about

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another business book following on the heels

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of our most recent bonus episode

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conversation around the 4th turning by William Strauss and Neil Howe, and the end of

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the world is just the beginning by Peter Zihan.

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Sometimes there is a business book about leadership that is so

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good that as a person in leadership development space, I sit back

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while reading it. I nod my head and I say to myself,

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damn. I wish I had written this.

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The book we are talking about today is easily one of the top five

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business and leadership books written in the last 10 years, and

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it was written by a former, never x

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as I’ve been informed, a former navy

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seal and current podcast host whose name you’ll

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know when I say it. This book details how

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lessons learned from over 20 years of military

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experience can be put to use in the corporate world, in

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the business world, and even in the civic and

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family world. It also shows

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that military culture can be just as screwed up, just as

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dysfunctional, and just as in need of change as any

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culture, civilian or otherwise

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operating outside of the military. And we are

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going to take somebody or we’re going to be joined, not take. We’re going to

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be joined on our journey through this book today by a

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guest who is the number one best selling author in 13 Amazon

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categories, a 5 time worldwide bestseller for books and

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leadership. He’s a top 40 under 40, candidate

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in tech and innovation, a bronze star medal winner for

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meritorious service in war zones, from service in

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Iraq and Afghanistan, and he was a White House military

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officer of the year. And if that’s not enough, a

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TEDx Southlake Tahoe speaker. I would like to welcome to the

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podcast today, Atlas Altman. How are you

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doing, Atlas? Hey, Hassan. Man, you know, I said it before,

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but I gotta say it again, man. Your voice is so silky

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smooth. I just I couldn’t wait until you got into, you

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know, introducing me, so that I could interrupt it for a second to just

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realize if I was it was in a dream or if it was real life.

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And I pitched myself a couple times while you’re while you’re doing the intro.

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Thanks for having me on the show. You know, I love your show. I love

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all the content that you put out. You put a lot of work into this.

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And man, you are right. It is way better to listen to you on a

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book and you listen to you and a guest on a book than it is

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reading a book. It’s like when you read a book and then you go see

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the movie. Right. You know, you’re yeah. You’re like, well, the

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podcast said more. So Well, it’s

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it’s interesting because I’m a huge movie guy. Just as an aside,

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I am a huge movie guy, and I’ve I, in in my most

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my more recent, regular episode podcast, I’ve been talking a lot

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about the intersections of film and books and all that. And I’ve been try I

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had good discipline the 1st couple of years keeping all that out, but it’s starting

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to leak in a little bit. So I gotta tighten up I gotta tighten up

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a little bit. But I’m a huge film guy. Huge. I love it.

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Yeah. Yeah. I love I love content in general. So thanks for having me, Assad.

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I appreciate this, man. This is gonna be awesome. You ready? Absolutely. Let’s jump into

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it. Let’s let’s says as the author would say, let’s,

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let’s get some. Yeah. Let’s get after it. So today,

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we will be talking about

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extreme ownership, how US Navy SEALs lead and

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win by Jocko Willink and Leafa Babin. So I have the

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black cover today if you’re watching on the video. Atlas has

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2 different versions. He has the white cover, and he has the

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black cover version. So he is doubling

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up on his ownership, such as it

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were. Now Extreme Ownership opens.

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And, again, you can go get this book. I would encourage you to go pick

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it up. Extreme Ownership opens with part

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1, winning the war with Ian. And so we’re going to do

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something that we’ve been doing on our podcast recently

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where we’ve been sort of summarizing some of the chapters and

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summarizing some of the content and giving you a broad overview of what’s in the

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book because, obviously we can’t cover everything in the book. And

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also, you know, we’d like to talk with the guests particularly one like Atlas who’s

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very well versed in the content, but also

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very well versed in how it applies to our real

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leadership lives. So the very first

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chapter opens up in the Malab district in Ramadi

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in Iraq. And, Jocko describes what

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exactly extreme ownership actually means

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through the lens of a blue on blue, through the lens

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of a fratricide. Now war is a dirty

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business. William Tecumseh Sherman

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said that, and you cannot make it any better. And

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the first chapter opens up

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with what exactly ownership actually

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means in a place where winning and losing is

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not about the balances on an account sheet. It’s actually

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about the blood in the streets and people’s lives.

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From there we move into and or jocko moves into the

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idea of no bad teams and only there

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being bad leaders which is an important distinction with the

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difference that many people fail to make,

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in in all of all sorts of leadership realms.

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And when I was thinking about this book, when I was reading it, a very

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particular story that I’m gonna tell here in just a moment,

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really resonated, really made this piece of the book resonate with

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me. He moves towards

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this idea of belief, when

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and this is an idea this is a concept in part one that

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really focuses around the need of the

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team to believe in the mission and really embedding

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that belief not only in the team, but making sure that leaders

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actually articulate that vision, articulate that belief to the

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team. And finally, part 1 of extreme ownership

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ends with with,

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the coauthor, Leif Babin. I believe this is Leif’s part. No. It

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was actually Jocko’s part. Sorry. With, with Jocko

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talking about, probably the most important aspect

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of any, leadership act or

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any leaders act, and that is that is the

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aspect of checking the ego. And we’re gonna talk about all of

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these different aspects today with Atlas, But I wanna

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kinda talk a little bit about a story that occurred to me when I was

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reading part 1. So and I’ve never talked about this on the podcast

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before, But, many years ago, when I was in administrative

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position in higher education and, most of my career, the

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first part of it anyway, before I started my leadership consultancy and

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started doing a whole bunch of the other things like this podcast that I’m doing

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now, I spend a lot of time in higher education,

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training and leading teams of anywhere between 12

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to 50, 18 to 19 year olds. And what I tell

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people very often, particularly if I’m in a corporate training,

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scenario when I’m teaching and leading and training 45 to 60

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year olds, is that the only difference between you and the 19 year olds is

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the number of years. Because y’all have the same kind of

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stuff going on, same kind of challenges.

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Well, many years ago, back in 2012, well over 10 years

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ago now, I was leading a team of college

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students that collapsed. And it

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was a leadership failure, on my part, actually.

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And it took a lot for me to understand

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why the team failed. Now I was

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hired, of course, to fire somebody on the team, and I, of

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course, I did that part successfully. But I didn’t realize

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that one of the dichotomies of leadership, and we’re going to talk a

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lot about this later on. Jocko talks about this in Jocko and Leaf both talk

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about this in their book, and it is one of the principles of extreme ownership

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But one of the dichotomies of leadership is you can do the right thing

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But you could do it with the wrong motives Actually, that’s there’s something

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biblical in there as well. I failed

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to check my ego, you know, with that team.

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And it turned out that because I failed to check my ego, even in the

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manner in which I fired that person, I turned out to be a bad

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leader, which created a toxic team.

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I failed to get people to buy in and to believe in the mission

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overall of that team. And it was a pretty substantially large team of my

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25 student leaders, all of whom were 19 years old, all of whom

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were looking to me for leadership, and I was not providing

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it. As a result, I had to check

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myself. I had to check my ego after some good counsel

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from a supervisor of mine. I had to check my ego, and

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then I had to constantly retake ownership over the team for the

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remaining year and a half that I was with that team.

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All of the aspects of extreme ownership that I failed on

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that Jocko talks about in his experience with the

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seal teams in Iraq and in Ramadi.

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I had those exact same experiences just in a different kind of way and

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experienced the exact same kind of thing. And I’m sure Atlas is going to

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talk a little bit about some of his experiences today, as it relates

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to extreme owners. Bad teams and bad leaders believing

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and checking the ego, of course. And so I’d like to turn it over to

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him with this question, just to start Atlas. This is a

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very jocko question. So we’re going to start here. How can

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leaders win the war within, How does that

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happen? Well, I mean, it starts off with with exactly what you

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just said. It starts off with checking your ego. So the story that I

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that I’m gonna share with your audience is one that, I don’t

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share too often, but it’s an extreme

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story, that mixes a special mission with presidential

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support and diplomacy. And it was when I realized that

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I could be different and I could win the war within. And it goes like

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this. I was in Afghanistan, for a long time, and I realized that,

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there’s a lot of violence there. I was in Iraq for a long time, and

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I realized that there was a lot of violence there. And in college, I was

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a bouncer. I used to fight a lot. I come from a family that said,

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you know, if you get into a fight, you come back as a winner, or

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you get into another fight. My whole life, I’ve answered with violence

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with violence. But in Indonesia, I was on

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a presidential mission, and, a lot of the things that Jocko

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and and Leif talk about, they they kind of roll into this.

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I had to take extreme ownership of this situation

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because I had the responsibility of bringing the president’s

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communication device into this peace conference.

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And the security guard, who I didn’t know was a security guard,

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told me it wasn’t coming in. And I was like, it’s it’s coming in. I’m

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bringing in my device for the president of the United States. They’re like, no. It

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isn’t. So I asked him what I needed to do, and after jumping through

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a lot of hoops that he didn’t think I jump through, I I had

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a diplomatic note from the state department, which is an agreement between countries

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to bring in this device specifically, and he was mad. So

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he ushered me into this back room, and he’s wearing this

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black outfit. Right? All black. And it looked

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like a uniform, but I didn’t really realize it was a uniform until I was

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in a room with a whole bunch of dudes in black

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uniforms all around me, and I have this device.

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So I did what I always do, and but this is what you do whenever

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you’re in a situation where you think violence is about to ensue. You put your

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hands up, You go into guard. You know

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all about guard. We’re probably gonna go talk about some some guard a little bit

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later, but you go into guard. That way you know something’s coming. So I put

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my hands up and I said, hey, I don’t know why I’m here, and he

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swung and hit me right in the face. Now

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I just told you I’m a man that answers violence with violence, but as I

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looked down as I looked down after I got clogged in the face,

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I saw this word diplomat, and it was on

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my chest. I was wearing a suit. I was not able to

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fight. I’m not able to. The agency that I worked for told me if I

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ever got into a violent confrontation, I

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was going to get kicked out of the agency, and it took me years to

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get into this position that I was in to work directly for the president of

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the United States. So I had this war

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inside me. Okay? It just brewed

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up, and I had this emotional onset that I’ve never had

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before as I pushed the guy off, and I grabbed the device and left

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the room. Immediately, cameras went my direction,

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people saw it, and I got the call. What just

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happened? And I was like, hey, I’ll tell you when you get here. And they’re

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like, are you okay? And I was like, yeah. So just like in the story

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where, this top leadership was coming to the scene to the ex

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where I was. Same thing happened with me. They’re coming, and they

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wanna know what happened. What did I do? What did my team

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do? What happened specifically? And like all of

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this, I left the team out of all of this. The team went in, did

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everything they were supposed to do. They were in the venue. I handled

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everything from the point of of conflict. Mhmm.

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Because I’m used to doing that. So when they showed up, they asked me to

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go through this, and then I had to struggle. Unlike Jocko, I went through all

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of the emotions. I, you know, I asked the team, you know, whatever

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he did the same thing. I asked the team is is there something we could

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have done better? Nobody’s gonna give me any answers on that, because everyone

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feels at fault that I just got hit in the face, you know. And

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instead of them trying to come on and figure out how they were part of

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it, I just immediately shut that down because I’ve already read this book.

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I had read the the white version before it turned into the black version

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later. The, you know, the black’s, number one New York

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Times Center with q and a’s. This is the big one. This is the book

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that I was like, I’m gonna get the q and a’s on this. But

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when I got there and the leadership came up to me,

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they they said what happened? And I said, hey, you know, this is what happened,

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and I I couldn’t answer with violence, and then the seal,

255
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the the president’s military aid was a seal at that day.

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And I’m looking at his Trident, and like I just you know,

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I can see what they go through to get that Trident, to wear that

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Trident, and it’s a lot. It’s a lot. So, he’s

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looking at me like why didn’t you hit the guy and he knows that I

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couldn’t have. So he just walks away and like I just I

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felt a little little wet thing pop out of my eye,

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and I’m like all of a sudden I’m crying. I have no idea why I’m

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crying. And I’m like okay, put that back, and then I’m

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angry. So I went through anger, fear that I was gonna lose my

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job, and then like I squirted 1, I I don’t cry, so I

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didn’t know what the heck was happening. It wasn’t out. My eyes were just

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pushing out this this bubble that I couldn’t understand, and all of

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that came back to, you know, the higher brass came down

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and they said hey let’s keep him in the job. He did the right

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thing, and then they got me paired with a diplomatic

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response agent because I’m not, you know, I’m not a politician. I don’t know what

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I’m doing. So they put some professional in there, and the guy was like, hey.

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We’re gonna go see this guy. He’s gonna apologize. I need you

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to say, yeah, yeah, I accept your apology. Then we’re walking

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away. And you know how that went. The guy was like, hey, I’m a Christian.

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I’m like, well, dude, well, Christians don’t hit other Christians. Christians don’t hit

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people, but I accept your apology. And then I walked away and

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the the political aide was like, oh, my gosh. That was amazing. Like, I had

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been trained for years to say that kind of stuff. I was just you know

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what I mean? I was just me. And the whole thing is, like, whenever you

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read a good book, and this is why I think we’re talking about it, when

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you read a good book and you take it and you’re like, how can I

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apply what he did, which was a grandiose scale, I mean, somebody died

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under his watch? And he he was like it’s my

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responsibility. No one died in my situation. I got clocked

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in the face, but still my job was on the

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table. You know, the president’s movements, and how he was

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gonna act, and how he was able to do his presidential duties, They were all

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on my shoulders, and there’s no fail. So I had a

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different type of stress that was still really high that I had

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to work through, and it was a war within me, and it was a war

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within. Do I blame somebody else? This dude hit me for no reason. I could

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have said that. That would have been stupid, but like I, you know,

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I I obviously had my hands up. I don’t know. You know, I maybe I

295
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provoked something. So honesty is the best policy, all of

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that, but the other part to this this

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whole chapter that I gotta end on is is Leif says it

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in there. He said there’s no bad teams, only bad leaders. And he

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talks about the boat example where they had these

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seal team training scenarios where one team was always

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losing, and one team was always winning, and they flopped the

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leaders and the team that was losing,

303
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became like the winning team.

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You know, and and like the the winning team was number 2,

305
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but the leaders matter. And it all hit the

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whole the whole thing is extreme ownership. When you realize that your

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environment is controlled by you, if

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there’s struggles, you have to get through it.

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You have to figure out what’s going on. Nobody’s gonna help you, man.

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No one’s gonna help you through the hard times. It’s in you to

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get through that situation. And when you start looking in, the

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battle becomes a whole lot better. Sun Tzu puts it this way in The Art

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of War, If you know your your enemies, you’ll win half the

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battles. If you know yourself, you’ll win half the battles. If you know yourself and

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the enemy, you’ll win a 100% of the battle. But

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here’s the war within. The enemy is usually yourself.

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You talk to yourself more than anyone else talks to you in your life. The

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voice that you hear the most is you. That voice

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should be positive, especially in conflict. You know,

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when I when I was crying, I didn’t think, oh my gosh, I’m

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crying. Oh, how embarrassing. I was like, why am I crying?

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Immediately I attacked it. Like why is this happening?

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And then I realized I’m going through something. My body’s trying to figure out what’s

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going on because we didn’t just pretzel the guy we normally would have pretzeled.

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You know what I mean? I couldn’t get into the way I normally solve

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problems, and my body’s like why couldn’t we just do that? Why

327
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couldn’t we just Why couldn’t we engage that muscle memory? Yeah. What

328
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what is happening to you? Are you okay? And it’s like going through

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all the emotions and like that’s a real war and we all have it.

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So what a great question to ask because it really is a

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war within, and you have to own it. And that’s what the book talks

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about. That’s what my book talks about. And that’s basically all my

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00:20:20,340 –> 00:20:24,025
book talks about is like putting the right people in

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and around your environment. To where they

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influence you to be better, to be bigger, to be the best

336
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version of you. And whenever you realize that’s on you

337
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too, your network changes and you start to become somebody

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that people don’t recognize. The kid that everyone used to, we used to

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talk to and be like, you know, that kid, he can’t, whatever. They don’t say

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that anymore. That stops because you focus in on

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what you were specifically made to do. And that

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niche is what some people call it. It’s inside you man, but it’s

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different with everybody. And that is why

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leadership is a $1,000,000,000 a day business. $1,000,000,000 a

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00:21:04,705 –> 00:21:08,210
day is being spent on how to fix

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leadership. And that’s because they can’t, everyone’s got a different mode.

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Everyone’s got a different leadership opinion. So whenever you

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start realizing that and you start looking in to how you can lead, not

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how someone else can lead, but use someone else’s lessons to become a better version

350
00:21:23,045 –> 00:21:26,879
of you, That’s when you start winning that war within. What do you think about

351
00:21:26,879 –> 00:21:30,019
that? Oh, I think that’s I think that’s exactly correct.

352
00:21:30,639 –> 00:21:34,174
Several things occurred to me while you were talking. I was taking notes. So,

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you know, one of the things that I wrote about in my 3rd

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book, 12 rules for leaders, the foundation of intentional leadership is

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that leadership is like pornography. Everyone knows what it is when they

356
00:21:47,030 –> 00:21:50,205
can spot it. And everyone knows when it’s not when they don’t see it.

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And that’s why leadership is, to your point, you know, a

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$1,000,000,000 a day you know, industry. That’s why

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there are over 400,000 plus of volumes on Amazon.com

360
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just in the leadership category alone.

361
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And what people are searching for is how their

362
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individual lived experiences and this is

363
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what what has done so brilliantly in Extreme Ownership,

364
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and in your books and in my books, how could your lived experiences,

365
00:22:24,220 –> 00:22:27,975
scale up? Right? What’s the ways that they can go to a much

366
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larger world? And that’s something that I wanna I wanna ask you about because you

367
00:22:31,815 –> 00:22:34,830
mentioned something in there in that great story,

368
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about the Indonesia presidential mission and the dudes in the black uniforms

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that have been jumped through all those hoops. Dude, let me tell you too. Like,

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the guys that I was with that were from the country, they were like, don’t

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mess with them. They’ll bury you. They’ll kill you. And I was like, I’ll kill

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them. I ain’t I ain’t have you know, but I didn’t even think about any

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of that. It’s gonna be a close it’s gonna be a close run thing. We’re

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gonna find out. We’re gonna find out.

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I wanna talk I wanna ask you a little bit about your background so that

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people can get to know you a little bit a little bit more. So,

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how do you go from being a bouncer in college to being in the diplomat

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core, you know, in Indonesia? How did what’s that life path? How

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00:23:13,440 –> 00:23:17,095
does that happen? And you can give me either the the the

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the the 10 minutes version or you can give me the 5 minute condensed version,

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however you wanna however you wanna do it. But how do you go? Because a

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00:23:22,934 –> 00:23:25,730
lot of people would be interested in that. Yeah. How I’m interested in that. Heck,

383
00:23:25,730 –> 00:23:29,030
that’s why I’m asking the question. How do you go from bouncer

384
00:23:29,570 –> 00:23:32,105
to diplomat? Like, what series of decisions

385
00:23:33,045 –> 00:23:36,885
was made that got you into that room? Because no

386
00:23:36,885 –> 00:23:40,170
one was in that room by accident, not even you. Do

387
00:23:40,890 –> 00:23:44,570
yeah. No. No. It’s very, very, very selective on who

388
00:23:44,570 –> 00:23:47,230
comes into that environment. Very selective.

389
00:23:48,865 –> 00:23:52,705
Okay. Yeah. So early on in my life, I started watching

390
00:23:52,705 –> 00:23:56,520
TV like everyone else looking for man examples, And one of

391
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the man examples that I always got was Rogan, man. Rogan

392
00:24:00,280 –> 00:24:03,545
used to be the person that would stand up to someone when they were wrong.

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And he had that confidence that, you know, look man, you’re wrong, you’re

394
00:24:07,785 –> 00:24:11,145
just wrong. And people were like, no I’m not wrong, and they would get emotionally

395
00:24:11,145 –> 00:24:14,860
charged, and then Rogan would correct because he could.

396
00:24:14,860 –> 00:24:18,460
He had the ability physically to stop anything that was

397
00:24:18,460 –> 00:24:22,080
happening, you know, but that he was actually he was controlling

398
00:24:22,955 –> 00:24:26,715
intellectual, but he was he was controlled until he didn’t he

399
00:24:26,715 –> 00:24:30,555
didn’t have to be. And someone would would press that button, he would he would

400
00:24:30,555 –> 00:24:34,159
answer the call. So I started looking at him and other

401
00:24:34,539 –> 00:24:38,380
like movie examples, man. I mean, my my mom, I I talk about it

402
00:24:38,380 –> 00:24:42,205
on Ted’s stage, my mom used to put me in these scenarios where she

403
00:24:42,205 –> 00:24:45,725
would she would send me to she would have me read books or watch movies

404
00:24:45,725 –> 00:24:49,200
that had strong leaders in them. And what I found in strong

405
00:24:49,200 –> 00:24:52,420
leaders was a physical health acumen.

406
00:24:52,720 –> 00:24:56,495
Like every strong leader was actually strong. Now

407
00:24:56,495 –> 00:25:00,335
whether it was physical or intellectual, the

408
00:25:00,335 –> 00:25:03,635
strength that component was needed.

409
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So I found myself at a very early age, and when my adopted dad

410
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told me, it was like, hey, you’re a strong kid. So I found myself

411
00:25:11,635 –> 00:25:15,395
gravitating towards the violent side of strength, towards

412
00:25:15,395 –> 00:25:18,950
what can I do? So I I took martial arts as a kid.

413
00:25:19,350 –> 00:25:23,190
I I took in, like, you know, all the stuff we all do. Right?

414
00:25:23,190 –> 00:25:26,870
All the stuff. The sports and stuff. And then, that turned

415
00:25:26,870 –> 00:25:30,605
into what I wanted to do in my life, which at freaking 3 years

416
00:25:30,605 –> 00:25:34,365
old, my grandpa was in special forces. He had

417
00:25:34,365 –> 00:25:37,980
me around a bunch of special forces people. I always wanted to be in special

418
00:25:37,980 –> 00:25:41,760
forces. So my mom kinda always put me in that environment,

419
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and then whenever it was my choice, and and I had been

420
00:25:45,405 –> 00:25:49,205
studying all the leadership decisions because really that was where I was as

421
00:25:49,205 –> 00:25:52,225
a kid. I was interested in how people make these decisions.

422
00:25:52,605 –> 00:25:56,280
Mhmm. I found the 5 w model. Right? Who, what, where, when, and

423
00:25:56,280 –> 00:25:59,560
why to be used everywhere. And then I thought it was really fancy, because I

424
00:25:59,560 –> 00:26:02,565
added how. So I had like 6 things, and I’d be like, like, you know,

425
00:26:02,565 –> 00:26:06,145
and I’d be like boom we’re doing this. Strong voice.

426
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And so I started looking at my scenarios of where

427
00:26:10,445 –> 00:26:13,470
I was gonna go, and I was gonna go in the army, because that’s where

428
00:26:13,470 –> 00:26:17,230
special forces is. And, my dad was in the army. He

429
00:26:17,230 –> 00:26:20,610
was in the special forces community as well, my adopted dad, and he said,

430
00:26:21,335 –> 00:26:25,095
no. Go in the air force. And, he’s like, it’s it’s

431
00:26:25,095 –> 00:26:28,375
gonna be better for you. You’re gonna have all these jobs that you’re gonna be

432
00:26:28,375 –> 00:26:31,200
able to do what you wanna do in the air force. So,

433
00:26:32,299 –> 00:26:35,760
I went through, the air force. I got selected to be

434
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an officer, which is a full time leader. That’s what Jocko and Leif were

435
00:26:40,395 –> 00:26:43,675
doing. They were commanding. And this is what my mom really wanted me to do

436
00:26:43,675 –> 00:26:47,440
anyway. She wanted me to be a leader in in future wars. She

437
00:26:47,440 –> 00:26:51,200
named me Joshua Michael, and she used to frequently tell me that

438
00:26:51,200 –> 00:26:55,005
stands for leader of warriors. Joshua, you know, after

439
00:26:55,005 –> 00:26:58,465
Moses, was a strong leader in the bible. Right? And then,

440
00:26:59,565 –> 00:27:03,085
with Michael, Michael being the general of God’s armies, we’re a big

441
00:27:03,085 –> 00:27:06,269
Catholic family, so so she’s like this is what your name means. I want you

442
00:27:06,269 –> 00:27:09,309
to be a leader of warriors. Not standard what you hear from my mom, but

443
00:27:09,309 –> 00:27:13,065
that’s what my mom used to say. So whenever I came up to my

444
00:27:13,065 –> 00:27:15,865
mom Mom mom was a warrior in and of herself. She was one of those

445
00:27:15,865 –> 00:27:19,705
Spartan women. You either come back out of your shield or, like, you know, buried

446
00:27:19,705 –> 00:27:23,240
with it. Yeah. Yeah. So all of

447
00:27:23,240 –> 00:27:27,080
that, that transpired into, me going

448
00:27:27,080 –> 00:27:30,705
into the air force and really making her, but she got mad. She

449
00:27:30,705 –> 00:27:34,384
got so mad because she wanted to be an army brat as an

450
00:27:34,384 –> 00:27:37,710
army child. She wanted to be an army spouse, which she was. Then she wanted

451
00:27:37,710 –> 00:27:41,429
to be an army mother. She wanted to have, like, an army life, and I

452
00:27:41,429 –> 00:27:45,030
went to the air force. And, you know, before she

453
00:27:45,030 –> 00:27:48,315
passed away, she saw me at the White House leading soldiers,

454
00:27:49,174 –> 00:27:53,015
and that was a special mission. So, like, transferring through my

455
00:27:53,015 –> 00:27:56,075
career, special things allowed themselves

456
00:27:56,679 –> 00:28:00,520
or afforded opportunities for me to go into unique

457
00:28:00,520 –> 00:28:04,280
environments like the White House. And Yeah. That was one of the special missions that

458
00:28:04,280 –> 00:28:07,715
I got to do after doing special missions in Iraq. So I did special

459
00:28:07,715 –> 00:28:11,475
missions in Iraq, then it brought me into this

460
00:28:11,475 –> 00:28:15,040
environment called combat comm, and I was in the mob is what they call it.

461
00:28:15,120 –> 00:28:18,640
And combat communications is a group that goes out, takes over a

462
00:28:18,640 –> 00:28:22,480
field, sets up an airstrip, and then has the airfield come in so that

463
00:28:22,480 –> 00:28:25,965
we start wars. That’s how that works. Got it. So I was doing

464
00:28:25,965 –> 00:28:29,485
that, and then we started a worldwide one because the

465
00:28:29,485 –> 00:28:32,924
community got bigger because of the things that were going on in the world. Mhmm.

466
00:28:32,924 –> 00:28:36,740
And I spent lots of time, man, doing that.

467
00:28:36,740 –> 00:28:40,340
And I went from being in Iraq winning a

468
00:28:40,340 –> 00:28:43,240
bronze star like you told like you told the the earlier.

469
00:28:43,975 –> 00:28:47,335
And that’s not something the air force gets. That’s an army medal for

470
00:28:47,655 –> 00:28:51,255
like, the the the beginning of that says while engaged with the

471
00:28:51,255 –> 00:28:54,679
enemy. That’s not something that you get in the Air Force

472
00:28:54,679 –> 00:28:58,360
usually. You don’t get a medal that says while engaged with the enemy Right. If

473
00:28:58,360 –> 00:29:01,880
you’re in the Air Force. So that’s an army medal, and,

474
00:29:02,120 –> 00:29:05,585
I got that, and my mom was pretty proud of that, because my

475
00:29:05,585 –> 00:29:08,625
grandpa had a bronze star. He had a purple heart. I didn’t want one of

476
00:29:08,625 –> 00:29:12,299
those. But, you know, he did the the MacVeesock

477
00:29:12,440 –> 00:29:15,960
thing. So all of that transpired into the opportunity to go

478
00:29:15,960 –> 00:29:19,625
assess to be at the White House, and that took 2 years. And I went

479
00:29:19,625 –> 00:29:23,465
through lots of, background checks. My security clearance had

480
00:29:23,465 –> 00:29:26,825
to be what they call, a presidential security

481
00:29:26,825 –> 00:29:30,470
clearance. Mhmm. So I had to have carpoolanche.

482
00:29:30,530 –> 00:29:34,290
They had to do a ton of research on me, and then assessments

483
00:29:34,290 –> 00:29:37,615
and then tests and all that. And then I got brought into the team, but

484
00:29:37,615 –> 00:29:41,375
not the team that was around the president, just just the team. And then I

485
00:29:41,375 –> 00:29:44,575
got to work, you know, around the president, which is that one I told you.

486
00:29:44,575 –> 00:29:48,080
And then 2 years later, I started working on the president’s staff as one of

487
00:29:48,080 –> 00:29:51,620
the top top five people in the agency to go represent.

488
00:29:52,320 –> 00:29:56,095
And that was that was interesting. Living at the White House was fun. So we’ve

489
00:29:56,095 –> 00:29:59,475
we’ve had folks on this podcast before,

490
00:29:59,934 –> 00:30:03,710
with, with extensive military experience. We

491
00:30:03,870 –> 00:30:07,710
last year, we covered, or last season, sorry, season 2,

492
00:30:07,710 –> 00:30:10,850
we covered the book, About Face by Colonel David Hackworth,

493
00:30:11,585 –> 00:30:15,425
with a good friend of mine who, did a couple of tours in,

494
00:30:15,665 –> 00:30:18,325
in Iraq and a tour in Afghanistan as well.

495
00:30:19,425 –> 00:30:23,010
Another one of our somewhat regular co

496
00:30:23,010 –> 00:30:26,710
hosts was a graduate of West Point

497
00:30:26,770 –> 00:30:30,395
and did a tour in Iraq. Right. And

498
00:30:30,395 –> 00:30:33,995
so, one of the things that you and I had talked about before we

499
00:30:33,995 –> 00:30:37,515
press record on this was, and I want to say this

500
00:30:37,515 –> 00:30:41,210
early, what we’re seeing happen

501
00:30:41,210 –> 00:30:44,030
right now in, I would say, the last

502
00:30:44,890 –> 00:30:48,650
5 or 6 years, and it’s really started to speed up after the

503
00:30:48,650 –> 00:30:52,475
Afghanistan withdrawal. What you’re starting

504
00:30:52,475 –> 00:30:55,995
to see is all of those men who like

505
00:30:55,995 –> 00:30:59,610
yourself, Jocko, the the 3 people or 2 people, 3 people that

506
00:30:59,610 –> 00:31:03,210
I’ve named already, you know, starting to come

507
00:31:03,210 –> 00:31:06,794
out and starting to really say to the

508
00:31:06,794 –> 00:31:10,554
civilian world, hey. We have this military experience. We have

509
00:31:10,554 –> 00:31:14,330
this military background. You should really pay attention to us. And it seems

510
00:31:14,330 –> 00:31:17,850
like it’s on a sharper edge primarily because

511
00:31:17,850 –> 00:31:21,294
of a couple of things, I think. And I don’t you don’t necessarily have to

512
00:31:21,294 –> 00:31:25,054
respond to this. It’s just an observation. Primarily, I think

513
00:31:25,054 –> 00:31:28,655
because of the politics around Iraq and Afghanistan that were sharply different than the

514
00:31:28,655 –> 00:31:32,179
politics around everything that it’s always compared to, which is Vietnam

515
00:31:32,559 –> 00:31:34,980
Mhmm. Or even the first Persian Gulf War.

516
00:31:36,720 –> 00:31:40,475
And then you also have a good chunk of people who are my age, I’m

517
00:31:40,475 –> 00:31:43,935
45 this year, who are my age, who are

518
00:31:45,115 –> 00:31:48,450
quite frankly self consciously determined

519
00:31:48,750 –> 00:31:52,210
not to do the same things and not to have the same sort of social

520
00:31:52,270 –> 00:31:55,965
and cultural responses to folks like yourself and Jocko

521
00:31:55,965 –> 00:31:59,505
and all of that and all those folks, not have the same cultural responses

522
00:32:00,125 –> 00:32:03,840
as our parents did to folks in their time. We’re we’re we’re we’re

523
00:32:03,840 –> 00:32:07,679
hyper self conscious about that. And that’s where you get the thank you for

524
00:32:07,679 –> 00:32:10,815
your service kind of stuff and all of that. Right? And I get it that

525
00:32:10,815 –> 00:32:14,435
that it sounds flat when when you hear it because it’s just a job.

526
00:32:14,895 –> 00:32:18,600
And at the same time, when only less than I think

527
00:32:18,600 –> 00:32:22,280
it’s less than 1% of the available male population serves in the

528
00:32:22,280 –> 00:32:25,665
United States now, forget World War II. That’s just gone.

529
00:32:26,225 –> 00:32:29,745
Less than 1% of the available male population served in in,

530
00:32:30,385 –> 00:32:34,010
in Iraq and Afghanistan. When we run

531
00:32:34,010 –> 00:32:37,770
across somebody who’s speaking from that space, like a Jocko, like

532
00:32:37,770 –> 00:32:41,150
you, like the folks that I brought on to this podcast before,

533
00:32:42,015 –> 00:32:45,455
we run across people who are coming speaking from that space. We do we do

534
00:32:45,455 –> 00:32:49,215
as a generation sit up and listen. And quite frankly, folks who are

535
00:32:49,215 –> 00:32:52,850
younger than us, where the the military participation

536
00:32:52,850 –> 00:32:56,690
rate is even lower, also sit up and

537
00:32:56,690 –> 00:33:00,475
pay attention. And so I think that there’s some real, I know that there’s some

538
00:33:00,475 –> 00:33:04,075
real leadership value in those experiences that

539
00:33:04,075 –> 00:33:07,750
again, the military isn’t and let’s not put it up on a pedestal.

540
00:33:07,890 –> 00:33:11,650
It is another sphere of how we operate in the world, but there

541
00:33:11,650 –> 00:33:14,610
are lessons that could be brought across from that sphere. That’s why we’re talking to

542
00:33:14,610 –> 00:33:18,455
you and covering this book today. Well, so the military

543
00:33:18,755 –> 00:33:22,115
is the largest organization in the world when it comes

544
00:33:22,115 –> 00:33:25,735
to people employed. Mhmm. How much is spent?

545
00:33:26,710 –> 00:33:30,010
Land, buildings, like, assets.

546
00:33:30,630 –> 00:33:34,470
So, like, the military itself is the biggest corporation, if you want

547
00:33:34,470 –> 00:33:38,285
to think about it in those terms. And lessons pulled out of

548
00:33:38,285 –> 00:33:41,905
that environment, usually have a life or death consequence.

549
00:33:42,460 –> 00:33:45,980
So I can see where the lessons are, but I do I gotta be

550
00:33:45,980 –> 00:33:49,420
careful, like, who I’m listening to. Right. Because what’s happened

551
00:33:49,420 –> 00:33:52,925
is, especially in the last couple years, people

552
00:33:52,925 –> 00:33:56,445
have transferred into becoming thought leaders without

553
00:33:56,445 –> 00:33:59,650
actually producing thoughts that are fully developed.

554
00:34:00,190 –> 00:34:03,250
So when you start to latch on to something that isn’t ready

555
00:34:03,950 –> 00:34:07,245
and you start to go with it, you have half back half baked

556
00:34:07,565 –> 00:34:11,264
ideas that come out, and those half baked ideas are dangerous.

557
00:34:11,804 –> 00:34:15,620
Right. So, like, whenever you have, I only I was really

558
00:34:15,620 –> 00:34:19,420
careful, and I used a couple people’s books. You

559
00:34:19,420 –> 00:34:23,219
know, Jocko and Laffer were one of them. But I used a couple

560
00:34:23,219 –> 00:34:27,054
books to, like, get through the process, because the Department of Defense has to

561
00:34:27,054 –> 00:34:30,574
clear your book to make sure that you’re not, you know,

562
00:34:30,574 –> 00:34:34,250
divulging any operational secrets. And I’m I’m pretty pretty cake when I

563
00:34:34,250 –> 00:34:37,790
don’t I don’t talk anything operations. I talk personal experience.

564
00:34:37,849 –> 00:34:41,690
Right? Right. So my personal experience doesn’t talk about operations

565
00:34:41,690 –> 00:34:45,535
most of the time. Time. So I was very careful to take things

566
00:34:45,535 –> 00:34:49,295
that actually were fully developed and put them in a book. I’m very

567
00:34:49,295 –> 00:34:52,440
careful what I speak, like the the story that I share with you. I don’t

568
00:34:52,440 –> 00:34:56,120
share with it too I don’t share that too often, but whenever I

569
00:34:56,120 –> 00:34:59,485
do, that’s fully developed so that you can

570
00:34:59,485 –> 00:35:03,244
realize you’re going to go through something hard. It may not be

571
00:35:03,244 –> 00:35:06,859
what I went through, but you’re going to go through something hard, and your

572
00:35:06,859 –> 00:35:10,540
body and your emotions are going to flare. And

573
00:35:10,540 –> 00:35:14,300
when they do, realize it. And then realize you can control it. That’s

574
00:35:14,300 –> 00:35:17,795
the lesson that that I like to that’s a fully developed

575
00:35:17,855 –> 00:35:21,695
lesson. You know what I mean? I don’t share things that aren’t fully developed. No.

576
00:35:21,695 –> 00:35:25,440
I like it. I love that. I love that idea that half baked

577
00:35:25,440 –> 00:35:29,119
ideas are dangerous. Yeah. And and

578
00:35:29,119 –> 00:35:32,960
you I love it how you tied that directly to this idea that the you

579
00:35:32,960 –> 00:35:36,684
compared the military to a corporation. And of course, going back to Eisenhower, the military

580
00:35:36,684 –> 00:35:40,145
industrial complex. Yep. Yada yada yada yada. We know. Okay.

581
00:35:42,180 –> 00:35:45,540
Social spending is still more in the United States than military spending is, but I

582
00:35:45,540 –> 00:35:48,980
won’t get into all that. Anyhow, it’s true. It’s very

583
00:35:48,980 –> 00:35:52,565
true. Like, there’s more money in corporations than there ever will be in the military.

584
00:35:52,565 –> 00:35:56,244
Trust me. Exactly. But just looking at the military as a corporate

585
00:35:56,244 –> 00:36:00,050
entity, just like in any other corporate entity, taking

586
00:36:00,050 –> 00:36:03,089
that idea to its logical conclusion, you’re going to have some people that are going

587
00:36:03,089 –> 00:36:05,490
to be at the pinnacle of the peak of their powers who are going to

588
00:36:05,490 –> 00:36:08,935
have fully baked ideas. You’re going to have a bunch of people in the

589
00:36:09,795 –> 00:36:10,664
middle who have half baked ideas, who are running around thinking their ideas are fully

590
00:36:10,664 –> 00:36:11,635
baked. And then you’re going to have an even larger mass of people at the

591
00:36:11,635 –> 00:36:12,135
bottom

592
00:36:16,290 –> 00:36:19,650
who have no ideas and just

593
00:36:19,650 –> 00:36:23,490
wanna ascend the hierarchical ladder. Right? And to say or do

594
00:36:23,490 –> 00:36:27,285
anything to get up that ladder. And so, I agree. Like, we do

595
00:36:27,285 –> 00:36:30,805
have to be careful as people who are purveying

596
00:36:30,805 –> 00:36:34,160
leadership ideas to make sure that our ideas aren’t half baked

597
00:36:34,799 –> 00:36:37,119
and make sure that they are fully thought through. And that’s one of the reasons

598
00:36:37,119 –> 00:36:39,920
why I do this podcast. It’s because this is it gives me an opportunity to

599
00:36:39,920 –> 00:36:43,684
talk through ideas with folks, reality check my ideas

600
00:36:43,744 –> 00:36:47,585
against not only a book but also an interesting guest, and then see if this

601
00:36:47,585 –> 00:36:51,360
idea is actually real. Like, am I actually seeing something

602
00:36:51,360 –> 00:36:54,880
that’s real here, or am I just making it up as I go along? So

603
00:36:54,880 –> 00:36:58,695
it’s true. Yeah. One other thought, and then we’ll go

604
00:36:58,695 –> 00:37:02,475
back to the book. All right. You mentioned,

605
00:37:04,990 –> 00:37:08,450
how most people engage in negative self talk. And so

606
00:37:08,910 –> 00:37:12,375
by my master’s degree is in conflict management and in conflict

607
00:37:12,375 –> 00:37:15,595
resolution. Right? I did a lot of divorce and family mediations.

608
00:37:16,455 –> 00:37:20,000
I’ve done my fair share of tough negotiations. And

609
00:37:20,080 –> 00:37:22,320
we’ll talk about a little bit more about this, but I was a I was

610
00:37:22,320 –> 00:37:25,440
a fighter. I was a playground warrior from the time I was 12 till That’s

611
00:37:25,440 –> 00:37:27,525
right. I stopped being a playground warrior. Right?

612
00:37:29,525 –> 00:37:33,365
Sometimes I will say to people, you know, I’m part of the last generation where

613
00:37:33,365 –> 00:37:36,769
we actually had real fist fights about things like real genuine

614
00:37:36,769 –> 00:37:40,450
fistfights. People don’t fight anymore. Well, interestingly

615
00:37:40,450 –> 00:37:43,809
enough, I was in line, and this will kind of date this recording, but I

616
00:37:43,809 –> 00:37:47,455
was in line to to vote yesterday. And there were

617
00:37:47,455 –> 00:37:50,975
2 kids standing behind me, 2 young men standing behind me, and a young woman

618
00:37:50,975 –> 00:37:54,640
standing in front of me. And they both knew her from the local high school.

619
00:37:54,640 –> 00:37:57,040
They both just turned all 3 of them just turned 18 and they were voting

620
00:37:57,040 –> 00:38:00,400
for the first time. And I was like, oh, okay. But they actually talked to

621
00:38:00,400 –> 00:38:03,040
each other. And I actually said this out loud while I was standing in line

622
00:38:03,040 –> 00:38:05,855
to them. And I was, of course, on my phone looking at email. And I

623
00:38:05,855 –> 00:38:08,815
look up from the email, and I go, wait. I thought people in your generation

624
00:38:08,815 –> 00:38:12,600
didn’t talk to each other without phones. Like, this is They’re, like, get

625
00:38:12,600 –> 00:38:16,359
your phones out. This is crazy. This is crazy. What is

626
00:38:16,359 –> 00:38:19,980
happening? I can hear your voice. And

627
00:38:20,520 –> 00:38:23,825
and to their credit, the 2 the 2 young men behind me just started laughing.

628
00:38:24,445 –> 00:38:27,085
And the young lady, she kinda rolled her eyes as most 18 I I have

629
00:38:27,085 –> 00:38:30,690
an 18 year old daughter. So, like, yeah, she’s gonna do that thing. Who’s this

630
00:38:30,690 –> 00:38:34,530
weirdo talking to me? Right? But neither not one

631
00:38:34,530 –> 00:38:37,250
of them had their phones out. They were focused on what they needed to do

632
00:38:37,250 –> 00:38:41,055
and and to be in line. And they’re having a conversation later on

633
00:38:41,055 –> 00:38:44,895
as we move through the line about the, about something going on

634
00:38:44,895 –> 00:38:47,680
at their local high school. And I won’t say where the locality is. It doesn’t

635
00:38:47,680 –> 00:38:51,440
really matter. But about something going on at their local high school, and they said

636
00:38:51,440 –> 00:38:54,660
the 2 boys were talking and they go or they said to each other,

637
00:38:55,714 –> 00:38:59,555
well, XYZ person. I don’t remember the name. It doesn’t matter. XYZ person,

638
00:38:59,954 –> 00:39:03,795
punched that other person the other day. And then like the person

639
00:39:03,795 –> 00:39:07,560
who got. Like, apparently rolled up to this other

640
00:39:07,560 –> 00:39:11,020
person later on and, like, waylaid him.

641
00:39:12,040 –> 00:39:15,165
Wow. Yeah. Like, waylaid him totally. And so they were talking about it, and then

642
00:39:15,165 –> 00:39:18,365
the girl in front of me, she starts laughing, and she starts telling them about

643
00:39:18,365 –> 00:39:19,745
what she heard about this.

644
00:39:23,150 –> 00:39:26,750
Oh, and, and so she starts telling them what she heard about

645
00:39:26,750 –> 00:39:29,570
this this, this interaction. And

646
00:39:31,885 –> 00:39:35,425
I I got to admit, my heart kind of warmed a little bit.

647
00:39:36,765 –> 00:39:40,589
Got to admit. And that’s terrible of me. I know it is,

648
00:39:40,589 –> 00:39:44,029
but I was like, at least at some

649
00:39:44,029 –> 00:39:47,705
point, people aren’t just social media warriors.

650
00:39:47,845 –> 00:39:51,065
At some point, it does you you can

651
00:39:51,925 –> 00:39:55,630
hit that Mike Tyson, you know, sort of idea that everybody’s

652
00:39:55,690 –> 00:39:59,470
strong online, but at a certain point, you’re gonna get punched in the mouth.

653
00:39:59,530 –> 00:40:03,105
Yeah. And and no one has a plan. And no one has a plan. No

654
00:40:03,105 –> 00:40:06,145
one has a plan for that. And so it did weirdly enough. It sort of

655
00:40:06,145 –> 00:40:08,625
rolled my heart. That’s an interesting little aside there. I had to tell I had

656
00:40:08,625 –> 00:40:12,450
to tell that story because that happened yesterday. Because I do often feel

657
00:40:12,450 –> 00:40:16,130
like we are part of that last cohort where

658
00:40:16,130 –> 00:40:19,925
physical confrontation for the words that come out of your mouth, there’s

659
00:40:19,925 –> 00:40:23,125
going to be an escalation there. And it is and the skill set of being

660
00:40:23,125 –> 00:40:26,665
an adult in conflict management is learning how to deescalate

661
00:40:26,885 –> 00:40:30,710
from that or not to allow it to get to that. And that’s where

662
00:40:30,710 –> 00:40:34,470
to tie this all into self talk, that’s where your self talk has to

663
00:40:34,470 –> 00:40:38,005
come in. And so the great Zig Ziglar once said years ago, the motivational

664
00:40:38,145 –> 00:40:41,665
speaker, Zig Ziglar said, you know, almost

665
00:40:41,665 –> 00:40:44,805
99% of our internal conversation is negative.

666
00:40:45,359 –> 00:40:49,119
Mhmm. And we need to re we need to switch the switch

667
00:40:49,119 –> 00:40:52,880
the gears on that. And of course, scientific research and psychological research on that

668
00:40:52,880 –> 00:40:56,415
has proven that the vast majority of our self talk is negative. Now

669
00:40:56,955 –> 00:41:00,315
seals, special forces, air

670
00:41:00,315 –> 00:41:04,099
force, you know, special forces folks, One of the

671
00:41:04,099 –> 00:41:07,859
ways that they teach or train, and you probably went through this,

672
00:41:07,859 –> 00:41:11,619
is is reinforcing positive self talk versus negative self talk.

673
00:41:11,619 –> 00:41:14,155
Let’s talk a little bit about that, and then we’ll go back to the book.

674
00:41:14,155 –> 00:41:16,715
We’ll talk a little bit about that. How do we how do we switch our

675
00:41:16,715 –> 00:41:19,775
self talk so it’s more positive rather than negative?

676
00:41:20,400 –> 00:41:24,000
Yeah. Well, so it depends on where you are in which

677
00:41:24,000 –> 00:41:27,760
environment, but there’s a lot of things that, that come out

678
00:41:27,760 –> 00:41:31,395
of that that special operations environment that,

679
00:41:31,855 –> 00:41:33,875
breed positive influences.

680
00:41:36,070 –> 00:41:39,830
The the the way what I what I gotta start off with though is there’s

681
00:41:39,830 –> 00:41:43,050
a lot of negative self talk in that environment too.

682
00:41:43,434 –> 00:41:46,494
Because whenever you have a bunch of alpha people

683
00:41:47,275 –> 00:41:50,770
comparing each other to other alpha people, there’s

684
00:41:50,770 –> 00:41:54,610
a negative connotation where someone might be

685
00:41:54,610 –> 00:41:58,195
faster, stronger, smarter in certain areas. So

686
00:41:58,495 –> 00:42:02,095
what the special operations community is really good at and why we

687
00:42:02,095 –> 00:42:05,670
do really well, especially in American Special Forces,

688
00:42:05,990 –> 00:42:09,530
is we start looking at everyone’s strengths, and we put them together,

689
00:42:09,750 –> 00:42:13,589
and we make them a real tight knit group, and then we

690
00:42:13,589 –> 00:42:17,184
put them on a mission. After they’ve figured out who’s

691
00:42:17,184 –> 00:42:20,865
strong at what, after they know where they belong. And then

692
00:42:20,865 –> 00:42:24,380
this talks we’ll we’ll go back into this probably a little bit later, but this

693
00:42:24,380 –> 00:42:27,900
talks about the the decentralized command. If I know you’re really good at

694
00:42:27,900 –> 00:42:31,635
something, I’m gonna trust you to do it without question. And

695
00:42:31,635 –> 00:42:35,395
so, you start looking at all those things. They ask you during the

696
00:42:35,395 –> 00:42:39,155
assessment process to come on any special operations team. Like

697
00:42:39,155 –> 00:42:42,740
what are you good at? The strengths and weaknesses questions that everyone gets in an

698
00:42:42,740 –> 00:42:46,260
interview Mhmm. It’s it’s dissected at

699
00:42:46,260 –> 00:42:50,055
a a very cellular level whenever you’re assessing to be

700
00:42:50,055 –> 00:42:53,735
in a special operations environment. They make you take, tests

701
00:42:53,735 –> 00:42:57,450
that are cognitive in nature to figure out things

702
00:42:57,450 –> 00:43:01,230
that you may not know about yourself. They make you take personality tests.

703
00:43:01,370 –> 00:43:04,855
They test the way you are from an EQ or an

704
00:43:04,855 –> 00:43:08,535
EI, emotional intelligence perspective. And

705
00:43:08,535 –> 00:43:12,020
then I I like to breed all that into what I’m what I like to

706
00:43:12,020 –> 00:43:14,200
call, and this is still half baked, so be careful.

707
00:43:15,380 –> 00:43:19,185
Emotional equity. And what that does is

708
00:43:19,185 –> 00:43:22,865
it builds up a certain amount of self worth. So

709
00:43:22,865 –> 00:43:26,705
at night, I look at my schedule, and I say, what did I

710
00:43:26,705 –> 00:43:30,400
do today? And the things that I didn’t do normally would get like a,

711
00:43:30,400 –> 00:43:33,860
oh, you didn’t get to it? I’m like, yes, I can do that better tomorrow.

712
00:43:34,240 –> 00:43:37,684
And I start to push that into an equity mode to where whenever I am

713
00:43:37,684 –> 00:43:41,444
ready to do, like, a podcast with you, and we talked a couple times. You

714
00:43:41,444 –> 00:43:44,085
know, when I’m ready to do a podcast with you, it’s gonna be a good

715
00:43:44,085 –> 00:43:47,830
podcast. And so I know it’s coming, I know it’s coming, and

716
00:43:47,830 –> 00:43:51,270
the build up to that instead of the let down, it

717
00:43:51,270 –> 00:43:52,390
works in an equity mode for me. I’m putting sweat equity into something that’s gonna

718
00:43:52,390 –> 00:43:56,015
be great, equity mode for me. I’m putting sweat equity into something that’s gonna be

719
00:43:56,015 –> 00:43:59,615
great when it comes out. I’m putting this equity in. So I move it

720
00:43:59,615 –> 00:44:03,420
into an equity bucket, and I have emotional equity. And I

721
00:44:03,420 –> 00:44:06,860
really learned that in the special operations, you know,

722
00:44:06,860 –> 00:44:09,200
environments. Because I got on these teams, man.

723
00:44:10,505 –> 00:44:13,805
And I’ll probably talk about it a little bit, but

724
00:44:14,265 –> 00:44:17,880
if we go into chapter 11, I

725
00:44:17,880 –> 00:44:21,160
could hold off and tell you this story later. I could tell you now. Yeah.

726
00:44:21,160 –> 00:44:23,640
Hold hold on hold on and tell us the story when we get to chapter

727
00:44:23,640 –> 00:44:26,625
11 because I wanna I wanna hold on to that because that’s, that’s, what is

728
00:44:26,625 –> 00:44:30,385
that? Decisiveness and uncertainty, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

729
00:44:30,385 –> 00:44:33,585
Yeah. Let’s, let’s hold off and talk about that. Let’s go back to the book.

730
00:44:33,585 –> 00:44:37,040
Yeah. Let’s, let’s hold off on that. Back to the book, Back to extreme

731
00:44:37,500 –> 00:44:41,340
ownership, how US Navy SEALs lead and win by Jocko

732
00:44:41,340 –> 00:44:44,700
Willink and Leif Babin. By the way, you do need to check out

733
00:44:44,700 –> 00:44:48,525
Jocko’s podcast. His podcast, quite

734
00:44:48,525 –> 00:44:51,505
frankly, was the inspiration for what I do here,

735
00:44:52,045 –> 00:44:55,790
except I read classic books. He’s doing something a little bit more

736
00:44:55,790 –> 00:44:59,490
modern, but we’re both pursuing again the same thing

737
00:44:59,790 –> 00:45:03,355
in the same direction, trying to, trying to

738
00:45:03,355 –> 00:45:06,815
promulgate. That’s a fancy word, trying to promulgate

739
00:45:07,755 –> 00:45:11,135
fully baked ideas into the world.

740
00:45:11,700 –> 00:45:15,400
So back to the book. So we got through part 1.

741
00:45:15,940 –> 00:45:19,444
Let’s look at part 2, the laws of combat. Okay.

742
00:45:19,744 –> 00:45:23,424
So in looking at the laws of combat and extreme ownership, this is divided

743
00:45:23,424 –> 00:45:27,025
up into 4 parts. Right? And the first part opens

744
00:45:27,025 –> 00:45:29,750
up with, Leif Babin describing,

745
00:45:30,610 –> 00:45:34,450
covering the flank in south central Ramadi, Iraq, and

746
00:45:34,450 –> 00:45:38,175
talking about what it means to engage in a process called

747
00:45:38,175 –> 00:45:41,635
cover and move. Particularly a process

748
00:45:41,775 –> 00:45:45,140
of cover and move when you’re in a retreat where,

749
00:45:45,760 –> 00:45:49,360
and I love saying this, it’s almost in line from the movie Armageddon, when there

750
00:45:49,360 –> 00:45:53,155
are no good options, you just have to pick the best of

751
00:45:53,155 –> 00:45:56,994
all of the bad ones. And cover and move is an

752
00:45:56,994 –> 00:46:00,730
interesting idea where no one person is

753
00:46:00,730 –> 00:46:04,490
allowed to not be covered, but also no

754
00:46:04,490 –> 00:46:08,285
one person is allowed to stay static, right, and is allowed

755
00:46:08,285 –> 00:46:12,125
to merely nest in place. With

756
00:46:12,125 –> 00:46:15,505
cover and move, it allows a small team

757
00:46:15,840 –> 00:46:19,520
to, engage in a fundamental tactic of breaking down

758
00:46:19,520 –> 00:46:22,740
silos and depending upon each other. It also

759
00:46:23,040 –> 00:46:26,775
encourages teams to develop trust. And Leaf talks a lot

760
00:46:26,775 –> 00:46:30,535
about that in his application to business and the principle. Then from

761
00:46:30,535 –> 00:46:34,020
there, we move into this idea of simple, which

762
00:46:34,020 –> 00:46:37,700
was this chapter was written by Jocko. And simple

763
00:46:37,700 –> 00:46:41,460
is the idea that plan complexity defeats

764
00:46:41,460 –> 00:46:45,265
you. The most simple plan is the best one, as a matter

765
00:46:45,265 –> 00:46:49,045
of fact. And then we’re gonna I’m gonna talk a little bit about jujitsu.

766
00:46:49,425 –> 00:46:53,050
He paraphrases from, his great pal and,

767
00:46:53,630 –> 00:46:57,410
jiu jitsu instructor and the great jiu jitsu competitor, Dean Lister,

768
00:46:57,630 –> 00:47:01,335
in talking about how jiu jitsu is simple but not easy,

769
00:47:01,335 –> 00:47:05,175
and I can testify to that. But plans should

770
00:47:05,175 –> 00:47:08,855
be as complex as they need to

771
00:47:08,855 –> 00:47:12,680
be, but no more complex. And that is

772
00:47:12,680 –> 00:47:16,440
something that a lot of leaders struggle with because they get they

773
00:47:16,440 –> 00:47:19,795
fall in love with their own complexity. Right? They become seduced by their own

774
00:47:19,795 –> 00:47:23,474
complexity. And Jocko breaks that down very effectively as an

775
00:47:23,474 –> 00:47:26,535
application to business in this chapter.

776
00:47:27,480 –> 00:47:31,160
And from simple, we’re moving to prioritization and execution, something you probably

777
00:47:31,320 –> 00:47:34,220
if you listen to the Jocko podcast, you’ve heard him talk a lot about this,

778
00:47:34,360 –> 00:47:38,185
but priority prioritization, and execution, this chapter

779
00:47:38,185 –> 00:47:41,165
was written by Leaf, and it talks about how

780
00:47:43,069 –> 00:47:46,829
how do you kill as many bad guys as possible with the, with the

781
00:47:46,829 –> 00:47:50,589
US marines and the soldiers in Ramadi? And how do you

782
00:47:50,589 –> 00:47:54,234
do that when everything is going to hell, quite frankly,

783
00:47:54,775 –> 00:47:58,555
and all of the available options are exploding

784
00:47:58,615 –> 00:48:02,039
upon you at once as a leader and when the massive pressure

785
00:48:02,420 –> 00:48:05,240
of a situation is pushing on you.

786
00:48:05,859 –> 00:48:08,839
Countless problems on the battlefield and in life,

787
00:48:09,619 –> 00:48:13,424
snowball, each one becoming larger and larger and larger.

788
00:48:13,645 –> 00:48:17,325
How do you prioritize and execute? I’m gonna talk a little bit about

789
00:48:17,325 –> 00:48:20,970
that because my mom used to say something that I think Jocko would

790
00:48:20,970 –> 00:48:24,330
agree with, actually, on that one. And then

791
00:48:24,330 –> 00:48:27,550
finally, decentralized command, which you were just talking about with Atlas.

792
00:48:27,915 –> 00:48:31,435
Decentralized command is the idea that the people below you as a

793
00:48:31,435 –> 00:48:34,415
leader need to be able to actually lead,

794
00:48:35,539 –> 00:48:39,299
but that’s only half of it. Right? Junior leaders need to know and

795
00:48:39,299 –> 00:48:42,660
need to have the confidence that you’re actually going to support them as the senior

796
00:48:42,660 –> 00:48:46,434
leader. You’re going to support them and trust them in their decision making.

797
00:48:46,494 –> 00:48:50,255
You’re going to allow them to experience the consequences of their successes and

798
00:48:50,255 –> 00:48:53,540
failures. And I wrote about this in my book,

799
00:48:54,320 –> 00:48:57,680
12 Rules for Leaders. You’re going to allow them

800
00:48:57,680 –> 00:49:01,515
to not only experience the consequences and failures,

801
00:49:01,515 –> 00:49:05,355
but you’re also going to avoid as a leader yourself, what I call this

802
00:49:05,355 –> 00:49:09,089
is my version, I guess, of decentralized, command. You’re going to

803
00:49:09,089 –> 00:49:12,790
avoid the blame credit trap where leaders

804
00:49:12,930 –> 00:49:16,630
want to give away all the blame and take

805
00:49:16,930 –> 00:49:17,910
all the credit.

806
00:49:21,075 –> 00:49:24,855
Those are the laws of combat. That’s in part 2 of extreme ownership.

807
00:49:25,075 –> 00:49:28,779
And let’s gonna talk a little bit about a couple of things that relate when

808
00:49:28,779 –> 00:49:32,460
I think of this chapter. So, I’ve

809
00:49:32,460 –> 00:49:36,175
built teams before in my leadership consultancy, and I’ve worked with teams obviously

810
00:49:36,175 –> 00:49:39,475
in other contexts. And I’ve built with teams working on projects.

811
00:49:40,095 –> 00:49:43,775
Most recently, I’m building a local team, to do a

812
00:49:43,775 –> 00:49:47,490
podcast project for our local community. Right? Really cool

813
00:49:47,490 –> 00:49:51,090
idea doing an old time radio show because I’m a huge fan of those kinds

814
00:49:51,090 –> 00:49:54,845
of things. Right? But I cannot do it all by myself. I need about

815
00:49:54,845 –> 00:49:58,605
6 other people. 4 to 6 is usually the optimal team

816
00:49:58,605 –> 00:50:02,030
size. You cannot do everything at once as an

817
00:50:02,350 –> 00:50:05,630
You cannot do everything at once. And I’ve been an entrepreneur my entire almost my

818
00:50:05,630 –> 00:50:08,990
entire career and the places where I have not been allowed to be an entrepreneur,

819
00:50:08,990 –> 00:50:12,655
I’ve struggled. But even inside that, when I’ve been an

820
00:50:12,655 –> 00:50:15,875
entrepreneur, I’ve realized that the first thing,

821
00:50:16,734 –> 00:50:20,080
the biggest challenge to the team being the success

822
00:50:20,860 –> 00:50:24,380
is me. I’m the biggest challenge to the team being the

823
00:50:24,380 –> 00:50:28,085
success. Any leader is the biggest challenge to the team

824
00:50:28,085 –> 00:50:31,925
being the success, because if the leader doesn’t check their ego, then there can’t

825
00:50:31,925 –> 00:50:35,480
be covered and move Plans can’t be made simple. We cannot

826
00:50:35,480 –> 00:50:39,240
prioritize and execute because everything is in the number one slot all

827
00:50:39,240 –> 00:50:42,945
of the time, And we cannot have trust in order to

828
00:50:42,945 –> 00:50:46,085
effectively engage in decentralized command.

829
00:50:47,265 –> 00:50:50,880
My mom used to say that the number one slot is

830
00:50:50,880 –> 00:50:54,480
called number 1 for a reason because only one thing can go in the

831
00:50:54,480 –> 00:50:58,055
number one slot. And then after that you can have

832
00:50:58,055 –> 00:51:01,674
everything else I think Jako would agree

833
00:51:02,454 –> 00:51:06,080
so would leaf It’s what’s picking.

834
00:51:06,460 –> 00:51:10,300
It’s choosing what goes into that number one slot that’s hard for us

835
00:51:10,300 –> 00:51:14,035
as leaders. And so the question I have

836
00:51:14,035 –> 00:51:17,795
for Atlas, after we look at laws of combat and thinking about

837
00:51:17,795 –> 00:51:21,430
your own experience and thinking about your own life Is how

838
00:51:21,430 –> 00:51:24,950
can leaders follow the laws of combat? You know that are described in part 2

839
00:51:24,950 –> 00:51:27,590
here and I think that this is the core of the book. These ideas are

840
00:51:27,590 –> 00:51:31,265
simple decentralized command prioritize and execute,

841
00:51:32,285 –> 00:51:35,025
and of course, you know, cover and move.

842
00:51:36,205 –> 00:51:39,505
How can leaders apply those laws of combat

843
00:51:39,680 –> 00:51:42,740
to their their leadership lives?

844
00:51:43,599 –> 00:51:47,200
I like it. Well, one of the one of the parts of this book that

845
00:51:47,200 –> 00:51:50,635
I absolutely love is 2 words, and it’s

846
00:51:50,635 –> 00:51:54,075
decisively engaged. Mhmm. That’s not something people

847
00:51:54,075 –> 00:51:57,755
normally hear. Decisively engaged, as as they describe

848
00:51:57,835 –> 00:52:01,500
as Jocko describes, is whenever there is no

849
00:52:01,500 –> 00:52:05,020
good way out. Like, the only thing that can

850
00:52:05,020 –> 00:52:08,465
happen is you have to win or you

851
00:52:08,465 –> 00:52:11,985
die. Right. You’re you can’t get out, of the

852
00:52:11,985 –> 00:52:15,345
building, and you can’t get out on a road. You have to go through

853
00:52:15,345 –> 00:52:19,170
something. So what do you go through? And you pick the

854
00:52:19,170 –> 00:52:22,930
least worst option. That’s what what you’re trying to do.

855
00:52:22,930 –> 00:52:26,315
That’s what that’s what everybody’s trying to do, but I’m with you on that. These

856
00:52:26,315 –> 00:52:30,155
are the core principles that a leader must think about. Cover

857
00:52:30,155 –> 00:52:33,950
and move is how people the people that

858
00:52:33,950 –> 00:52:37,550
you control, the people that you are in charge of, the

859
00:52:37,550 –> 00:52:41,390
people that are going to do the work, how do they

860
00:52:41,390 –> 00:52:45,235
operate. And in order to do that, what the book

861
00:52:45,235 –> 00:52:48,915
doesn’t cover, which I’ll add to it, which it’s something that that I’m

862
00:52:48,915 –> 00:52:52,570
sure you you have probably talked about whenever you’re doing consulting is,

863
00:52:52,890 –> 00:52:56,650
what are these people passionate about? Yep. Because a

864
00:52:56,650 –> 00:53:00,330
lot of people get hired onto a team, and then they never get

865
00:53:00,330 –> 00:53:04,015
asked, could they do more, or would they contribute

866
00:53:04,015 –> 00:53:07,855
in a different way if they were allowed to? And whenever you start asking those

867
00:53:07,855 –> 00:53:11,500
questions, you open the door to people doing more because

868
00:53:11,500 –> 00:53:15,280
they are empowered to do so. Unless you have that question

869
00:53:16,060 –> 00:53:19,695
unless you have that question built in early, these people will only

870
00:53:19,695 –> 00:53:23,455
do what you hired them to do. And if they don’t like doing it

871
00:53:23,455 –> 00:53:27,299
anymore, they’re gonna start sucking at it. So I’m with

872
00:53:27,299 –> 00:53:31,140
you. It’s on the leader to figure out what their team is actually

873
00:53:31,140 –> 00:53:34,900
good at. And if you aren’t a leader who asked that question, if you don’t

874
00:53:34,900 –> 00:53:38,744
leave your mark with a question mark, which is what

875
00:53:38,744 –> 00:53:42,505
are you passionate about, you’re not gonna

876
00:53:42,505 –> 00:53:46,030
ever know the full dynamic impact of your

877
00:53:46,030 –> 00:53:49,710
team. Every team I’ve ever built just want to insert here.

878
00:53:49,710 –> 00:53:53,470
Every team I’ve ever built, every person I’ve ever hired, and you could I

879
00:53:53,470 –> 00:53:56,934
mean, even down to a volunteer intern.

880
00:53:57,474 –> 00:53:59,895
Yeah. I would ask them.

881
00:54:01,474 –> 00:54:05,070
What do you want to contribute to

882
00:54:05,070 –> 00:54:08,670
this organization? Not what your goals are because that’s a

883
00:54:08,670 –> 00:54:12,350
different question. That’s a different question. What do you want to contribute to

884
00:54:12,350 –> 00:54:15,875
this organization? What do you want to contribute to the team? And then I would

885
00:54:15,875 –> 00:54:19,575
ask them the follow-up question. How can I best help you

886
00:54:20,674 –> 00:54:24,319
make that happen? And so many people who used to

887
00:54:24,319 –> 00:54:26,880
work with me on teams that I built and now have gone off to do

888
00:54:26,880 –> 00:54:30,480
other things with other teams, they’ve come back to me and they’ve

889
00:54:30,480 –> 00:54:34,065
said You’re not asked that question. Yeah. Yeah,

890
00:54:34,065 –> 00:54:37,505
exactly. They said, you know, no one asked that question. You, I, I, I, I

891
00:54:37,505 –> 00:54:41,136
would tell them sometimes even in the interview process, but a lot

892
00:54:41,136 –> 00:54:44,720
when I was working with them, I’m on purpose spoiling

893
00:54:44,720 –> 00:54:48,425
you for other roles. I’m doing it on purpose. I guess I’m

894
00:54:48,425 –> 00:54:52,265
making you better, obviously. Yeah. Even just a little tiny bit, even

895
00:54:52,265 –> 00:54:55,970
if it’s just 1% better. But I want you to remember this experience

896
00:54:56,590 –> 00:55:00,290
when you go out and you have other experiences with other folks. Because guess what?

897
00:55:00,510 –> 00:55:04,195
I know enough to know it’s not gonna be like that everywhere else. It’s

898
00:55:04,195 –> 00:55:08,035
so true. That’s so good. But you as a leader, it’s

899
00:55:08,035 –> 00:55:11,715
on you to make them leaders. Right. And you’re doing that with that

900
00:55:11,715 –> 00:55:15,369
question because if you’re not asking that question, they’re not gonna think about it in

901
00:55:15,369 –> 00:55:19,069
the shower or while they’re driving down the street or doing their exercises.

902
00:55:19,530 –> 00:55:23,115
No. But but when you plant that seed, they start thinking about

903
00:55:23,115 –> 00:55:26,875
it, and then they start figuring out who they really are, and that

904
00:55:26,875 –> 00:55:30,470
is powerful. So that

905
00:55:30,470 –> 00:55:34,310
is the one that I would say cover and move. Figure out how people

906
00:55:34,310 –> 00:55:37,815
can cover so that you can move. That’s the business

907
00:55:37,815 –> 00:55:41,495
application, to what they’re saying. Keep it simple,

908
00:55:41,495 –> 00:55:45,115
stupid. The kiss theory is is talked about,

909
00:55:45,530 –> 00:55:48,970
and and that’s the next part. Right? And I like what your mom said. You’re

910
00:55:48,970 –> 00:55:52,330
the number one spot. There’s only one place for one one thing

911
00:55:52,330 –> 00:55:56,125
there. Yeah. I heard it said another way

912
00:55:56,125 –> 00:55:59,805
recently on another show. It says, keep first

913
00:55:59,805 –> 00:56:03,450
things first and everything else never.

914
00:56:04,549 –> 00:56:08,309
Because whenever you focus on one thing and that’s gone, the

915
00:56:08,309 –> 00:56:11,995
next first thing comes up. So I’m gonna relate a story here

916
00:56:11,995 –> 00:56:14,735
very briefly. Recently in my family,

917
00:56:15,515 –> 00:56:19,195
there’s been some health issues with a relative of mine. I’m

918
00:56:19,195 –> 00:56:22,859
gonna hash some information here. That way, identifying information

919
00:56:22,859 –> 00:56:25,740
isn’t isn’t out there in the public. There’s been a health issue with a family

920
00:56:25,740 –> 00:56:29,464
member of my immediate family member, and it’s been causing stress to

921
00:56:29,464 –> 00:56:33,224
my wife. Right? And This is a

922
00:56:33,224 –> 00:56:36,125
anybody who’s ever had anything happen with their health and a family member

923
00:56:37,020 –> 00:56:40,000
knows that that’s one of the most trying, stressful,

924
00:56:40,540 –> 00:56:44,005
sharp, you know, kind of things that can happen to you. Yeah.

925
00:56:44,005 –> 00:56:47,625
Everyone’s got a lot of problems until they have health problems and they got one.

926
00:56:47,684 –> 00:56:51,530
Yeah. Exactly. Then they got one. But even in that, even in how my

927
00:56:51,530 –> 00:56:54,970
wife approached me on this to how to solve this problem, she was

928
00:56:54,970 –> 00:56:58,030
extremely stressed, crying, distraught,

929
00:56:59,050 –> 00:57:02,654
had was gathering a bunch of information to try to fix the problem herself, which

930
00:57:02,654 –> 00:57:05,954
is, you know, she’s taking ownership. And

931
00:57:06,895 –> 00:57:08,674
the first thing I did was listen.

932
00:57:10,540 –> 00:57:14,300
And that’s a key aspect. I think that that when Jocko

933
00:57:14,300 –> 00:57:17,955
talks about, this this this

934
00:57:17,955 –> 00:57:21,795
idea of prioritizing and executing Yeah. When Jocko and Leaf talk about this,

935
00:57:21,795 –> 00:57:25,290
I think the first role of the leader is to listen, not to solve the

936
00:57:25,290 –> 00:57:28,890
problem, to listen for what the number one problem should be

937
00:57:28,890 –> 00:57:31,930
that needs to be solved. What is the first thing that goes in that slot?

938
00:57:31,930 –> 00:57:35,724
Because that’s the hardest thing to determine. The hardest thing to determine isn’t the 1,

939
00:57:35,724 –> 00:57:39,565
2, 3, 4, 5. Like, the ordering is easy after you determine what’s

940
00:57:39,565 –> 00:57:43,184
number 1, and then all the other dominoes begin to fall. Yeah.

941
00:57:43,540 –> 00:57:47,240
Yeah. Or am I incorrect in that? No. That’s absolutely true.

942
00:57:47,700 –> 00:57:51,460
Brian Tracy is the the one person that talks about goals.

943
00:57:51,460 –> 00:57:54,575
Now I have a different aspect on what goals are. Right? Mhmm. I don’t call

944
00:57:54,695 –> 00:57:57,975
I don’t believe in goals. I don’t believe in New Year’s resolutions. I believe in

945
00:57:57,975 –> 00:58:01,640
targets. So I’ll I’ll take you, through Brian Tracy’s

946
00:58:01,640 –> 00:58:05,160
mindset. What he would have everyone do is get out a piece of

947
00:58:05,160 –> 00:58:08,760
paper, and I do this too. And write down everything you want, even if it’s

948
00:58:08,760 –> 00:58:12,315
ice cream. Put it all on paper. And then

949
00:58:12,615 –> 00:58:16,350
look at your list and see what would change your life

950
00:58:16,430 –> 00:58:19,650
if it could be magically given to you right now.

951
00:58:20,350 –> 00:58:23,994
Whatever that is, whatever would change your life the most if it could be given

952
00:58:23,994 –> 00:58:27,194
to you. Like, you know, you you have a genie and he’s gonna give you

953
00:58:27,194 –> 00:58:30,954
one wish. Boom. Which one is it? That’s your number one, and

954
00:58:30,954 –> 00:58:34,730
that’s how he does goals. Mhmm. And the way I do it

955
00:58:34,730 –> 00:58:38,350
is similar. I said put it all down. Now it’s real.

956
00:58:38,570 –> 00:58:42,405
Now your subconscious starts to work on it because you’ve made it something

957
00:58:42,405 –> 00:58:46,245
that belongs in the world. And now internally, you’re going to

958
00:58:46,245 –> 00:58:49,445
see your wheels spinning because of that Harvard study, right, in the eighties where they’re

959
00:58:49,445 –> 00:58:52,500
like, how many people have goals? How many people wrote them down? Well, the people

960
00:58:52,500 –> 00:58:55,940
who had goals were making 10 times more, and the people who had them written

961
00:58:55,940 –> 00:58:59,335
down were making, you know, 50 to a 100 times more because they wrote them

962
00:58:59,335 –> 00:59:02,935
down became real. So I take that and I make that to target. And

963
00:59:02,935 –> 00:59:06,610
whatever your target is, whatever your one target is, you can only shoot at 1

964
00:59:06,610 –> 00:59:10,450
target at a time. Mhmm. Whatever your target is, whenever

965
00:59:10,450 –> 00:59:14,045
you hit the target, you can do this. Do I need to hit it again

966
00:59:14,045 –> 00:59:17,185
or to make it more refined, or should I move on to the next target?

967
00:59:18,205 –> 00:59:21,890
And so Brian Tracy talks about that. Write it all down, and

968
00:59:21,890 –> 00:59:25,589
then whatever can be magically given to you, that’s your number one target.

969
00:59:25,730 –> 00:59:29,170
Yeah, I believe that, but whenever you write it down, you had that feeling like

970
00:59:29,170 –> 00:59:32,915
I need to knock that out. Just writing it down, getting it on

971
00:59:32,915 –> 00:59:35,475
paper is one thing, but then you push that into a target, and then all

972
00:59:35,475 –> 00:59:39,130
these other things become secondary, third targets. Not high value,

973
00:59:39,130 –> 00:59:42,810
these are low value targets. Your high value target is the one that will change

974
00:59:42,810 –> 00:59:46,165
your life. And if if you have health problems,

975
00:59:46,785 –> 00:59:50,545
it’s it’s it’s always health. Everyone has a lot of problems until they have

976
00:59:50,545 –> 00:59:54,005
health problems, and then it goes right to first. Because without health,

977
00:59:54,180 –> 00:59:58,020
you’re not living life to your fullest and you know it. And it’s such a

978
00:59:58,099 –> 01:00:01,300
it’s a hard thing to get through. And people who do, like I had a

979
01:00:01,300 –> 01:00:04,755
battle with skin cancer. And whenever I got through skin cancer, I

980
01:00:04,755 –> 01:00:08,515
started becoming more productive. I was way more I wrote my

981
01:00:08,515 –> 01:00:11,930
books, I got got on stages, you know what I mean? But I don’t tell

982
01:00:11,930 –> 01:00:15,450
people, this is probably the first time I’ve ever told anybody that I had skin

983
01:00:15,450 –> 01:00:19,085
cancer. It’s just something I had something that I was working on. People like, you

984
01:00:19,085 –> 01:00:22,625
okay? I’m like, I’m fine. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah.

985
01:00:22,845 –> 01:00:24,464
Well, and and, you know, it’s

986
01:00:28,660 –> 01:00:32,260
Jocko kind of touches on this in when he when

987
01:00:32,260 –> 01:00:35,320
he’s talking about this idea of

988
01:00:36,385 –> 01:00:40,145
prioritizing and executing, he kind of touches

989
01:00:40,145 –> 01:00:43,025
around the edges of it, but he doesn’t go directly to it because I think

990
01:00:43,025 –> 01:00:46,660
he assumes the reader will just get it. Yeah. And, and,

991
01:00:46,660 –> 01:00:50,180
and maybe he’s fleshed it out a little bit in subsequent podcast episodes. I’m sure

992
01:00:50,180 –> 01:00:53,860
he has because you can see it everywhere. But in prioritization and

993
01:00:53,860 –> 01:00:57,385
execution, the thing that flummoxes

994
01:00:57,605 –> 01:01:01,204
or stops people from prioritizing and executing is

995
01:01:01,204 –> 01:01:04,984
confusion about what the target is, which is to your point about Brian Tracy,

996
01:01:05,830 –> 01:01:09,510
Right? It’s also confusion about and Jordan Peterson talks a little bit about this

997
01:01:09,510 –> 01:01:12,870
too. It’s confusion about the hierarchy of

998
01:01:12,870 –> 01:01:16,615
values. What’s at the bottom of the hierarchy

999
01:01:16,675 –> 01:01:20,275
and what’s at the top? And many, many people this is why one of the

1000
01:01:20,275 –> 01:01:23,880
things we talked about in this podcast last year when we covered the Gulag

1001
01:01:23,880 –> 01:01:27,340
Archipelago by Alexander Solzhenitsyn

1002
01:01:27,560 –> 01:01:31,340
and Crime and Punishment by Dostoevsky. 2 heavy books. Right.

1003
01:01:32,665 –> 01:01:36,285
But what you find in both of those books is

1004
01:01:36,825 –> 01:01:40,665
the solution at the beginnings of the solution to the crisis

1005
01:01:40,665 –> 01:01:44,300
of meaning we currently have in the West and the crisis of

1006
01:01:44,300 –> 01:01:47,820
meaning we currently have is is because I think is

1007
01:01:47,820 –> 01:01:50,800
fundamentally due to people’s misordered hierarchies.

1008
01:01:51,484 –> 01:01:55,244
Mhmm. So we have a hierarchy, and we don’t ever want to

1009
01:01:55,244 –> 01:01:58,845
publicly admit this, but we privately I totally see that. Yeah. We

1010
01:01:58,845 –> 01:02:02,490
privately walk it out or not private. Sorry. We publicly

1011
01:02:02,490 –> 01:02:06,329
walk out what we don’t privately admit to ourselves. Right? And what we don’t

1012
01:02:06,329 –> 01:02:10,165
admit is we’ve got a lot of stuff that’s number 1 in the hierarchy for

1013
01:02:10,165 –> 01:02:14,005
us personally, but we’re either too ashamed or we

1014
01:02:14,005 –> 01:02:17,770
don’t understand or we’re not that we’re not that self aware to your

1015
01:02:17,770 –> 01:02:21,609
point earlier, about what’s in that

1016
01:02:21,609 –> 01:02:25,395
number one slot. And we don’t we don’t turn and face it. To your

1017
01:02:25,395 –> 01:02:29,234
point, we’re not decisively engaged with what that number one thing is. Nope. We don’t

1018
01:02:29,234 –> 01:02:33,060
have our North Star. And because we don’t have that, everything else is then

1019
01:02:33,060 –> 01:02:36,500
misordered. And then we wonder why our families are off the rails or our communities

1020
01:02:36,500 –> 01:02:39,620
are off the rails or our country is off the rails. Well, it’s because things

1021
01:02:39,620 –> 01:02:43,445
are fundamentally misordered. Now Yeah. If you don’t know what’s in

1022
01:02:43,445 –> 01:02:47,065
the number one slot, then prioritization and execution can’t happen

1023
01:02:47,125 –> 01:02:49,945
because you’re constantly in a space of chaos. Yeah.

1024
01:02:50,830 –> 01:02:54,670
And and you can organize chaos, but it takes time to figure that

1025
01:02:54,670 –> 01:02:58,190
out. And that’s why he talks about the fog of war. Right? Correct. That’s right.

1026
01:02:58,270 –> 01:03:02,005
The the fog of war. Now my master’s degree is in war theory

1027
01:03:02,145 –> 01:03:05,665
and national defense strategy. So whenever it comes to

1028
01:03:05,665 –> 01:03:09,380
war and and that conflict that you just described, that

1029
01:03:09,380 –> 01:03:12,740
that exists in that environment. Like, you’re supposed to be able to thrive in

1030
01:03:12,740 –> 01:03:16,040
chaos. But realistically, it’s prioritizing

1031
01:03:16,500 –> 01:03:20,224
in chaos. And then you execute whatever

1032
01:03:20,224 –> 01:03:23,984
that priority is. That’s the only thing you can do. So you’re right.

1033
01:03:23,984 –> 01:03:27,720
When people are all confused, and they start to set these, all these crazy

1034
01:03:27,720 –> 01:03:31,480
things, they get overwhelmed and stressed out and they become bigger

1035
01:03:31,480 –> 01:03:35,000
people because they’re stress eating or they stop working out or, you

1036
01:03:35,000 –> 01:03:38,735
know, name it, don’t sleep. I mean, they they become bigger people,

1037
01:03:38,735 –> 01:03:42,175
but not in the way they wanna be. Right. Because

1038
01:03:42,175 –> 01:03:45,890
because of chaos. Because of chaos. And it’s understandable. It’s It’s understandable. But,

1039
01:03:45,890 –> 01:03:49,430
yeah, back to this, you’re right. It’s a core core process,

1040
01:03:49,490 –> 01:03:52,845
like, prioritize and execute. Huge deal. Huge

1041
01:03:52,845 –> 01:03:56,365
deal. The way I talk about it in my book, rule of 3, is people

1042
01:03:56,365 –> 01:03:59,885
cannot do more than 3 things. If you give somebody more than 3

1043
01:03:59,885 –> 01:04:03,660
things, that’s too much. If you’re trying to sell somebody something and

1044
01:04:03,660 –> 01:04:07,020
you say I can do 4 things for you, well that’s great, that’s a good

1045
01:04:07,020 –> 01:04:10,835
deal because it’s more than 3. And rule 3 is something that we’re brought up

1046
01:04:10,835 –> 01:04:13,815
into. No matter where you are in the world, you got read,

1047
01:04:14,275 –> 01:04:18,119
bedtime story, you got told a bedtime story, and the most popular one is the

1048
01:04:18,119 –> 01:04:21,580
Goldilocks theory, right? 3 times decisions,

1049
01:04:22,440 –> 01:04:25,945
3 3 decisions to make, and then 3 bears showed up.

1050
01:04:26,265 –> 01:04:30,105
There’s there’s 3. You know? And then, you know, I played baseball.

1051
01:04:30,105 –> 01:04:33,945
Three strikes, you’re out. There’s 3 teams on football. You know, it just grows

1052
01:04:33,945 –> 01:04:37,779
and metastasizes in politicians. They say, I’m gonna lower taxes.

1053
01:04:37,839 –> 01:04:41,519
I’m gonna get you more jobs, and we’re gonna make sure this this this

1054
01:04:41,519 –> 01:04:45,355
area is secure. Whatever the three things are makes

1055
01:04:45,355 –> 01:04:49,115
it completely, ingrained into your brain as a

1056
01:04:49,115 –> 01:04:52,780
complete cycle. So as a leader, if you give somebody more than 3

1057
01:04:52,780 –> 01:04:56,460
things, they aren’t doing any of it. And

1058
01:04:56,460 –> 01:05:00,300
so we’re gonna talk about this as we go into the book, but

1059
01:05:00,300 –> 01:05:04,125
you’re right. If you take the chaos and you make it just 3 things,

1060
01:05:04,125 –> 01:05:07,345
that’s manageable. If you make it one thing, it’s gonna get done.

1061
01:05:07,724 –> 01:05:11,565
That’s just how it works. The book, The One Thing

1062
01:05:11,565 –> 01:05:15,400
talks about it. Yeah. And he he says, you know, we spend most

1063
01:05:15,400 –> 01:05:18,119
of our day I’m gonna use my fake stacks of money here. Yeah. So, you

1064
01:05:18,119 –> 01:05:21,474
know, I got my my my Hollywood money. Right? So those are all For those

1065
01:05:21,474 –> 01:05:24,835
of you listening on the podcast or the audio version, he’s got he’s got a

1066
01:05:24,835 –> 01:05:27,894
a stack of fake money here. Yeah. Money. 50.50,000

1067
01:05:28,994 –> 01:05:32,530
represented in 100 dollar bills. It’s it’s, it’s Hollywood money for

1068
01:05:32,530 –> 01:05:36,310
sure. But like this represents how much in seconds

1069
01:05:36,370 –> 01:05:40,065
you get every day. And most people see this 5

1070
01:05:40,065 –> 01:05:43,745
stacks and they go well I got lots of time, and then they get down

1071
01:05:43,745 –> 01:05:46,465
to the end and they’re like well I got much time. So everything happens in

1072
01:05:46,465 –> 01:05:50,228
the last minute. You wait till the last minute, it only takes a

1073
01:05:50,228 –> 01:05:53,931
minute. Except for whatever gets produced is not usually that good. So what

1074
01:05:53,931 –> 01:05:57,765
happens whenever you start taking the stack is in the book he says

1075
01:05:57,765 –> 01:06:01,605
you spend, 33% of your time switching between

1076
01:06:01,605 –> 01:06:05,445
tasks. So I’m taking 2 stacks off this, which means I got $30,000 right,

1077
01:06:05,445 –> 01:06:08,549
worth of worth of money that I’m gonna spend, worth the seconds that I’m gonna

1078
01:06:08,549 –> 01:06:11,609
spend. Well let’s make this bigger.

1079
01:06:12,549 –> 01:06:16,325
Let’s talk about it in a month, and let’s pair it down to 25%.

1080
01:06:16,785 –> 01:06:20,385
That means if it’s a 4 week month, one of those weeks is

1081
01:06:20,385 –> 01:06:24,190
switching between tasks. Wait wait wait, let me go a little bit bigger.

1082
01:06:24,190 –> 01:06:27,950
That means in every year, 4 months of your year is switching between

1083
01:06:27,950 –> 01:06:31,390
tasks. Now let me let me make this a little bit bigger. 4

1084
01:06:31,390 –> 01:06:35,055
years. It’s we go 25.

1085
01:06:35,055 –> 01:06:38,735
That’s 2 and a half years, but really 2 and a half to 4

1086
01:06:38,735 –> 01:06:42,579
years because of technology, because technology helps you

1087
01:06:42,579 –> 01:06:46,420
switch between tasks. Yeah, right. It gets you engaged in something

1088
01:06:46,420 –> 01:06:50,164
else. Yeah. So so now you’re spending 6 years

1089
01:06:50,224 –> 01:06:53,984
of things that you can actually do instead of 10. And how you

1090
01:06:53,984 –> 01:06:57,730
do the prioritize and execute is you focus on the one thing,

1091
01:06:57,730 –> 01:07:00,850
that one target is what I like to say. You pick that one target, you

1092
01:07:00,850 –> 01:07:03,970
hit that, you move on to the next. And people ask you the question they

1093
01:07:03,970 –> 01:07:07,085
always ask us, how are you doing so much? How do you get all this

1094
01:07:07,085 –> 01:07:10,925
done in one day? It’s easy. It’s just not, it’s

1095
01:07:10,925 –> 01:07:14,380
not simple for you to execute. It takes a lot of habit

1096
01:07:14,680 –> 01:07:18,040
changing for you to be like me. And a lot of people don’t like

1097
01:07:18,040 –> 01:07:21,880
that, because they wanna live in the chaos, and they call that

1098
01:07:21,880 –> 01:07:25,675
comfort. And that comfort chaos will

1099
01:07:25,675 –> 01:07:28,875
creep up and kill you. And by the end of your life, you’re going to

1100
01:07:28,875 –> 01:07:32,640
be asking, well, what happened? Well, I thought I had more time.

1101
01:07:32,640 –> 01:07:36,099
And the reality is you just didn’t prioritize correctly.

1102
01:07:37,175 –> 01:07:40,775
Because you lead your life. No one else does that for

1103
01:07:40,775 –> 01:07:44,455
you. So it’s on you again to figure out what that looks

1104
01:07:44,455 –> 01:07:48,000
like, Or you could spend all the all the stacks that you

1105
01:07:48,000 –> 01:07:51,680
have in your life, switching between tasks and not doing

1106
01:07:51,680 –> 01:07:55,455
anything. That’s the chaos that we talk about. That’s the fog of war.

1107
01:07:55,455 –> 01:07:58,675
That’s the decision cycle. That is the problem.

1108
01:07:59,535 –> 01:08:03,319
That’s it in the crux. I’m a 100% with you. That is

1109
01:08:03,319 –> 01:08:07,079
the core of the what he calls, was it the the laws

1110
01:08:07,079 –> 01:08:10,445
of combat, cover and move simple, Keep it simple. Prioritize and

1111
01:08:10,445 –> 01:08:14,285
execute. Decentralized command. That’s all. That’s all

1112
01:08:14,285 –> 01:08:18,040
on you. Decentralized command, it’s the easiest thing to do whenever you

1113
01:08:18,040 –> 01:08:21,479
find somebody who’s an expert at whatever it is you’re trying to do, and you

1114
01:08:21,479 –> 01:08:25,100
say how much time and money do you need? Mysteriously

1115
01:08:25,795 –> 01:08:28,854
it doesn’t cost as much as if you tried to do it all yourself.

1116
01:08:29,554 –> 01:08:32,675
And that’s just a life hack right there that I have tried to tell people

1117
01:08:32,675 –> 01:08:35,160
all the time. You can get a lot more done if you find the right

1118
01:08:35,160 –> 01:08:38,780
person to do it. And, usually, it’s not you.

1119
01:08:43,705 –> 01:08:46,524
No. That’s a that’s no. Those are excellent points.

1120
01:08:47,785 –> 01:08:50,745
I wanna bring in, and I have to do this at least once per podcast.

1121
01:08:50,745 –> 01:08:54,410
It’s ironic that I’m doing it with Jocko because Jocko’s book, Jocko and

1122
01:08:54,410 –> 01:08:58,029
Leaf’s book because as I was singing to you before offline,

1123
01:08:59,609 –> 01:09:03,135
he and I weirdly share other than the military piece, which we don’t. We share

1124
01:09:03,135 –> 01:09:06,914
a lot of weird parallels, but he plays guitar. I play guitar.

1125
01:09:08,255 –> 01:09:11,569
Play guitar. Yeah. You know,

1126
01:09:12,510 –> 01:09:16,189
he owns a leadership consultancy. I don’t lead a leadership because, obviously, he’s written books.

1127
01:09:16,189 –> 01:09:19,774
I’ve written books. It’s weird. And now this is the other

1128
01:09:19,774 –> 01:09:23,375
parallel. I started doing now, obviously, he’s been doing jujitsu way the heck longer than

1129
01:09:23,375 –> 01:09:27,029
I have, but I started doing jujitsu a couple of years Yeah. Ago.

1130
01:09:27,270 –> 01:09:31,109
And, you know, starting jujitsu in your forties is different than starting your jujitsu

1131
01:09:31,109 –> 01:09:34,885
when you’re a hard charging 20 year old special forces guy.

1132
01:09:35,844 –> 01:09:39,364
Radically different. Right? And I came through combat

1133
01:09:39,364 –> 01:09:43,160
Taekwondo. I’ve hit people in the face. I’ve gotten hit in the

1134
01:09:43,160 –> 01:09:46,520
face, and I I know how the deal goes. Right? And I always resisted

1135
01:09:46,520 –> 01:09:50,354
jujitsu because, number 1, I my

1136
01:09:50,435 –> 01:09:53,635
principle was I’m never going to give you the opportunity to throw me to the

1137
01:09:53,635 –> 01:09:56,935
ground. That’s number 1. And then number 2,

1138
01:09:57,795 –> 01:10:01,489
I’m going to run away from you. So after that, what do you have? Like,

1139
01:10:01,489 –> 01:10:05,190
if I just run away from you, I’d I’m fairly sure I could outrun you

1140
01:10:05,890 –> 01:10:09,635
a long enough time. Fairly sure I can. I’m pretty fast. My knees

1141
01:10:09,635 –> 01:10:12,835
used to held up you have held up pretty well. I don’t know, man. I’m

1142
01:10:12,835 –> 01:10:16,114
a truck fu kinda guy. You know? If I can run you over, actually You

1143
01:10:16,114 –> 01:10:19,590
just I’m a do that. Well, you won’t fight? I’ll be right back. That’s

1144
01:10:19,730 –> 01:10:23,510
right. We say now.

1145
01:10:25,810 –> 01:10:29,118
And so but but then what And so

1146
01:10:29,304 –> 01:10:30,443
but but then what happened and the weird thing in my life is what happened

1147
01:10:30,443 –> 01:10:33,704
is I started playing rugby, and I played rugby for many, many years. K. And

1148
01:10:33,704 –> 01:10:37,550
rugby got me into the idea of or got me comfortable with the idea

1149
01:10:37,550 –> 01:10:40,909
of being under a dog pile and getting tackled and all this. Because I didn’t

1150
01:10:40,909 –> 01:10:42,750
do any of that kind of stuff when I was in when I was in

1151
01:10:42,750 –> 01:10:46,575
high school. I just I it wasn’t that wasn’t where my interests were. Okay. Fast

1152
01:10:46,575 –> 01:10:50,255
forward a few years, I’m looking around for something to do. I’m a little bit

1153
01:10:50,255 –> 01:10:53,695
bored. I’m like, okay. Fine. Jackal’s been banging on me for 10 years about this

1154
01:10:53,695 –> 01:10:57,409
jujitsu thing. Fine. I’ll go do jujitsu. I remember the

1155
01:10:57,409 –> 01:11:01,010
first time I rolled with my with my instructor who’s a

1156
01:11:01,010 –> 01:11:04,745
former battalion commander from Afghanistan, and I’ve

1157
01:11:04,745 –> 01:11:07,725
actually had him on the podcast as well. And, he,

1158
01:11:10,425 –> 01:11:14,100
I I sat down, and and I I’m

1159
01:11:14,100 –> 01:11:17,220
I’m I’m never a person who thinks I’m a I’m a pardon my usage. I

1160
01:11:17,220 –> 01:11:20,340
I don’t think I’m a badass. Like, I I think I’m a person who’s if

1161
01:11:20,340 –> 01:11:24,085
you Capable. With me, there’s going to be something that’s gonna happen that you won’t

1162
01:11:24,085 –> 01:11:27,605
like. Yeah. But I’m not going out and seeking it because why would I? I

1163
01:11:27,605 –> 01:11:29,925
don’t know. I have other things I need to do in my life. Plus, I’m

1164
01:11:29,925 –> 01:11:33,610
an adult, and lawsuits suck, and going to jail sucks.

1165
01:11:33,750 –> 01:11:36,710
I don’t have time for any of that. I got I have different priorities. I

1166
01:11:36,710 –> 01:11:40,250
prioritize There it is. Exactly. I prioritize different things.

1167
01:11:40,755 –> 01:11:44,114
And I’m not 20 anymore, so I’m not going out drinking in nonsense

1168
01:11:44,114 –> 01:11:47,795
anyway. Point is I sat down that very first time after the

1169
01:11:47,795 –> 01:11:51,510
first, like, 5 minute, like, oh, we’re gonna go. And number 1, I realized how

1170
01:11:51,510 –> 01:11:54,470
much I don’t know about fighting on the ground. That was number 1. Then number

1171
01:11:54,470 –> 01:11:58,205
2, the second thought right behind that was, well, I guess I’m

1172
01:11:58,205 –> 01:12:00,685
gonna this is gonna be another one of those that takes 10 years to be

1173
01:12:00,685 –> 01:12:04,065
an overnight success kind of thing. At least 5.

1174
01:12:04,845 –> 01:12:08,250
Well, in my case, in the 4 in your forties, it’s 10. It goes up

1175
01:12:08,250 –> 01:12:11,849
for every decade. It doubles every decade. You know? I I keep telling people now

1176
01:12:11,849 –> 01:12:14,730
I’m on the I’m on the 15 year plan. I might be a black belt

1177
01:12:14,730 –> 01:12:18,332
at 15 years. I’m not gonna worry about it. Let’s see if

1178
01:12:18,332 –> 01:12:21,981
the body holds up first. But the point that he makes about

1179
01:12:21,981 –> 01:12:25,710
things being simple but not easy Yeah. I see that all

1180
01:12:25,710 –> 01:12:29,409
of the time in Jersey. You know, and I’m a, I’m a measly,

1181
01:12:29,469 –> 01:12:32,389
I am, I’m a measly white belt. I’m not even a frigging blue belt anymore.

1182
01:12:32,389 –> 01:12:35,545
I probably shouldn’t be talking about this. I’m a measly white belt. Right?

1183
01:12:36,804 –> 01:12:40,485
But even a measly white belt like myself who

1184
01:12:40,485 –> 01:12:44,200
comes from a background of training and development in teaching and academics, understands how

1185
01:12:44,200 –> 01:12:47,820
hard it is to make complicated concepts simple, understands

1186
01:12:47,960 –> 01:12:51,400
that, number 1, it’s great to have a plan. And number 2, it’s great to

1187
01:12:51,400 –> 01:12:55,245
have a simple plan, but it’s not easy to execute that simple plan.

1188
01:12:55,385 –> 01:12:59,065
True. And jujitsu is a good example of, yeah, you’re gonna have a

1189
01:12:59,065 –> 01:13:02,390
simple plan, but that other person’s gonna get a vote.

1190
01:13:02,530 –> 01:13:06,210
Yeah. And there goes your simple plan. Yeah. The enemy gets a

1191
01:13:06,210 –> 01:13:09,010
vote. That’s what we always say. He puts it in his book, I think, too.

1192
01:13:09,010 –> 01:13:12,725
But, yeah, the enemy gets a vote. You’re always gonna have that

1193
01:13:12,725 –> 01:13:16,485
hard side, and that’s what makes it interesting. Yeah. That’s where

1194
01:13:16,485 –> 01:13:20,190
I’m at with that. But yeah. You got a lot

1195
01:13:20,190 –> 01:13:23,790
of parallels with Jocko. A weird weirdly, a weird number, and I

1196
01:13:23,790 –> 01:13:26,130
haven’t only I’ve thought about that only recently.

1197
01:13:27,614 –> 01:13:30,175
And it’s one of those things that I sort of think about, and then I

1198
01:13:30,175 –> 01:13:32,974
shut that door real quick. And then, like, I I gotta close that door. I

1199
01:13:32,974 –> 01:13:36,690
can’t get you focused on that. You opened it. So let me ask you this.

1200
01:13:36,690 –> 01:13:40,530
Do you think see, all those things that you that you described are things that

1201
01:13:40,530 –> 01:13:44,215
I do as well. Mhmm. I I know I’ve I’ve done

1202
01:13:44,215 –> 01:13:48,055
mixed martial arts. I’ve done, I was combatives instructor in, a

1203
01:13:48,055 –> 01:13:51,435
marine, line combatives, which is all jujitsu.

1204
01:13:51,815 –> 01:13:55,550
Yep. I I play guitar quite

1205
01:13:55,550 –> 01:13:58,750
frequently. I have a guitar problem, I think. I don’t know. It’s not hoarding if

1206
01:13:58,750 –> 01:14:02,245
you’re just, like, collecting guitars. Right? That’s not hoarding. Right? No. That’s not hoarding. No.

1207
01:14:02,245 –> 01:14:05,844
Okay. Yeah. Thank you for yeah. You’re welcome. But, like, leadership

1208
01:14:05,844 –> 01:14:09,445
consulting, yeah, I do that a lot. And, I’ve written books and, like, the

1209
01:14:09,445 –> 01:14:13,190
podcasting world is something that’s extremely interesting to me. I don’t have a

1210
01:14:13,190 –> 01:14:16,330
podcast yet. I always like to say that. But,

1211
01:14:17,030 –> 01:14:19,830
yeah, there’s a lot of parallels. Let me ask you this. Do you think it’s

1212
01:14:19,830 –> 01:14:21,755
because we’re just built

1213
01:14:25,495 –> 01:14:28,875
different? So I believe

1214
01:14:29,175 –> 01:14:32,220
in uniqueness

1215
01:14:33,400 –> 01:14:37,240
for, like, the country of the United States of America. I believe

1216
01:14:37,240 –> 01:14:41,015
that we have a unique proposition because of our our particular founding documents and our

1217
01:14:41,015 –> 01:14:44,695
creed and the path that we’ve gone through. Now, what has happened in the last

1218
01:14:44,695 –> 01:14:48,135
40 years, that’s a different story. But I I do believe in the uniqueness of

1219
01:14:48,135 –> 01:14:51,659
the United States as a national state

1220
01:14:51,800 –> 01:14:55,560
polpoly, right, in the history of the world. I think they will be writing

1221
01:14:55,639 –> 01:14:58,885
if we collapse, they will be writing books about us and papers

1222
01:14:59,824 –> 01:15:03,425
for centuries. Forget the Roman Empire. Just for centuries. Right? Yep. How did this

1223
01:15:03,425 –> 01:15:07,010
actually work? Yeah. But do I believe in the

1224
01:15:07,010 –> 01:15:08,630
uniqueness of human beings?

1225
01:15:11,250 –> 01:15:14,325
I believe that we are all made unique in the image of God for sure

1226
01:15:14,325 –> 01:15:17,445
because I’m a I’m a I’m a strong Christian in that in that space. By

1227
01:15:17,445 –> 01:15:20,085
the way, you talked about the rule of 3. Interestingly enough, just a side note

1228
01:15:20,085 –> 01:15:23,620
on that, you’ve got the trinity, the father, the son, and the holy spirit. My

1229
01:15:23,620 –> 01:15:27,000
whole book is biblical. I just don’t tell people, because people

1230
01:15:27,060 –> 01:15:30,725
immediately shut it down. Like, the rule 3, like, your top three people.

1231
01:15:30,965 –> 01:15:34,725
Jesus had top he he had 9 followers and then top 3

1232
01:15:34,725 –> 01:15:38,550
people. He had Top 3. Top 3. So, like, the rule 3

1233
01:15:38,630 –> 01:15:41,670
and people who influence you, all of that stuff comes out of the bible. I

1234
01:15:41,670 –> 01:15:45,349
got so many parallels to what works in leadership and what

1235
01:15:45,349 –> 01:15:49,095
what works with Christianity. Mhmm. But I I just don’t talk about it

1236
01:15:49,095 –> 01:15:52,775
because people immediately dismiss it. They’re like, well, why is

1237
01:15:52,775 –> 01:15:56,429
this, you know, it’s a biblical book. It it is, but it’s just stuff that

1238
01:15:56,429 –> 01:16:00,110
works. Well, it’s about this the the Bible itself is

1239
01:16:00,110 –> 01:16:03,915
about the structure of reality. Yes. That’s what it’s

1240
01:16:03,915 –> 01:16:07,675
about. Now you can you can object to that structure. You can have

1241
01:16:07,675 –> 01:16:11,215
friction. Iron can sharpen iron against that structure. Yeah. You can even,

1242
01:16:11,370 –> 01:16:14,810
as we have attempted to do for the last 150 years in the west, you

1243
01:16:14,810 –> 01:16:18,650
could attempt to dislodge that that foundation stone from the Mhmm.

1244
01:16:18,730 –> 01:16:21,737
From the underpinnings of western culture and see if it’ll still stand up. You can

1245
01:16:21,737 –> 01:16:23,552
try all of that. All of that. But the book I said this in the

1246
01:16:23,552 –> 01:16:24,405
context of a different

1247
01:16:28,380 –> 01:16:31,900
a different book we were talking about in a previous episode, but the book

1248
01:16:31,900 –> 01:16:35,739
defies the algorithm. It does. The book the book goes

1249
01:16:35,739 –> 01:16:39,585
against that. So I believe to to to kinda answer your question about

1250
01:16:39,585 –> 01:16:43,025
the uniqueness piece, do I think that we’re unique? I think that we are unique

1251
01:16:43,025 –> 01:16:46,625
as individuals in the sight of an almighty god. Absolutely. For sure.

1252
01:16:46,625 –> 01:16:50,449
100 percent. And of course, we should work on our salvation with fear

1253
01:16:50,449 –> 01:16:54,050
and trembling as a man named Paul once said. But I also

1254
01:16:54,050 –> 01:16:55,110
believe that

1255
01:16:57,835 –> 01:17:01,195
in the world in which we live with the types of opportunities that have been

1256
01:17:01,195 –> 01:17:04,735
offered up to us, the parallels between people,

1257
01:17:06,869 –> 01:17:10,710
are more than accidental. I I believe they’re fundamentally on purpose

1258
01:17:10,710 –> 01:17:14,445
because I believe that too. The universe the universe. I believe

1259
01:17:14,445 –> 01:17:16,385
that god operates both,

1260
01:17:17,805 –> 01:17:21,485
both, what do you call it, with free will

1261
01:17:21,485 –> 01:17:24,940
and on purpose. So the both those things work together. And don’t come at me

1262
01:17:24,940 –> 01:17:28,540
about predeterminers. All the Calvinists can hold

1263
01:17:28,540 –> 01:17:32,285
your hold your hold your chest, Calvinist. It’s okay. All of you out there who

1264
01:17:32,285 –> 01:17:35,345
are listening to me, I’m it’s okay. Just hold on.

1265
01:17:36,125 –> 01:17:38,765
But I do believe in free will, and I do believe in predestination, and I

1266
01:17:38,765 –> 01:17:41,485
do believe all these things are operating together, but I also believe it’s a great

1267
01:17:41,485 –> 01:17:44,909
mystery, again, to go go back to Paul. And we can’t really pull it apart

1268
01:17:44,909 –> 01:17:48,590
because it’s like gossamer. So, I

1269
01:17:48,590 –> 01:17:52,115
believe that people do share certain paths, but where people

1270
01:17:52,115 –> 01:17:55,875
diverge and what the what the ping pong balls are Yeah. Or

1271
01:17:55,875 –> 01:17:59,575
the or the billiard balls, actually, how we click off of each other,

1272
01:17:59,635 –> 01:18:03,460
I believe that that’s out of obviously, that’s

1273
01:18:03,460 –> 01:18:06,820
out of our control. But I think it’s a I think it’s a great thing

1274
01:18:06,820 –> 01:18:10,435
to think about. Yeah. Okay. We’ll get back

1275
01:18:10,435 –> 01:18:12,675
into the book. I’m I’m sure we’re getting ready to go back in the book.

1276
01:18:12,675 –> 01:18:16,320
But before let me pull this thread one more. Yeah. Go ahead. One more. So

1277
01:18:16,560 –> 01:18:20,320
between what what you’re seeing is these people who are making changes

1278
01:18:20,320 –> 01:18:24,099
in the world have the same influential, background.

1279
01:18:24,335 –> 01:18:28,175
You’re working on yourself and your physical strength by doing jujitsu. You’re

1280
01:18:28,175 –> 01:18:31,715
working on your ability to express yourself by playing the guitar.

1281
01:18:31,855 –> 01:18:35,469
There’s a creative side that happens there. You’re putting something out into the world

1282
01:18:35,469 –> 01:18:39,230
that’s gonna help people for free, it’s a podcast. And then you’re helping

1283
01:18:39,230 –> 01:18:42,705
people because you can’t give away things that you don’t have.

1284
01:18:42,945 –> 01:18:46,785
You have to have something that gives you money. Mhmm. You’re getting money so that

1285
01:18:46,785 –> 01:18:50,625
you can give it away. And, like, all of the things that you just

1286
01:18:50,625 –> 01:18:54,449
described are the same things that Jocko has in his

1287
01:18:54,449 –> 01:18:58,290
life, because you guys are basically doing the same

1288
01:18:58,290 –> 01:19:02,025
good mission that I think we’re all called to do,

1289
01:19:02,025 –> 01:19:05,385
and like you become these people. Like you’re in your forties, I’m in my

1290
01:19:05,385 –> 01:19:09,065
forties, but like when you when you become these people you start looking

1291
01:19:09,065 –> 01:19:12,869
at who you want to associate with, who you

1292
01:19:12,869 –> 01:19:16,550
wanna be like, who you wanna be. And

1293
01:19:16,550 –> 01:19:20,275
whenever you start focusing on you, well, then the world

1294
01:19:20,275 –> 01:19:24,035
changes, doesn’t it? Because you realize it’s not about you. It’s

1295
01:19:24,035 –> 01:19:27,715
about everyone else. It’s it’s it it ties into what she said, you know, in

1296
01:19:27,715 –> 01:19:30,990
the beginning of our conversation today. You know, the

1297
01:19:31,290 –> 01:19:34,270
the the the

1298
01:19:35,130 –> 01:19:37,630
the self awareness that’s required

1299
01:19:39,105 –> 01:19:42,865
to prioritize and execute effectively Yeah. Which is, of course, the

1300
01:19:42,865 –> 01:19:46,625
same self awareness that’s required to check the ego, engage

1301
01:19:46,625 –> 01:19:50,470
in extreme ownership, understand that it’s not the team’s fault. It’s

1302
01:19:50,470 –> 01:19:53,350
your fault. That’s right. I mean and and by the way, to be able to

1303
01:19:53,350 –> 01:19:56,945
to be able to invite you know, do I always

1304
01:19:56,945 –> 01:20:00,225
accept feedback? Well, no. There there are people in my family who will tell you,

1305
01:20:00,225 –> 01:20:03,970
Hasan is horrible accepting feedback. Honestly, it depends upon which

1306
01:20:03,970 –> 01:20:07,010
mood you’re approaching me and what the kind of feedback is. There’s a couple of

1307
01:20:07,010 –> 01:20:10,690
different things, you know, going on underneath there. But what I tell

1308
01:20:10,690 –> 01:20:14,515
my clients is feedback is

1309
01:20:14,515 –> 01:20:18,114
the gift that’s given to you in order to get you to

1310
01:20:18,114 –> 01:20:21,600
grow more in self awareness. And most of us

1311
01:20:21,600 –> 01:20:25,440
don’t treat even myself, I’m guilty of this sometimes, don’t

1312
01:20:25,440 –> 01:20:29,120
treat feedback as a gift. We treat it as a threat. Yep. And

1313
01:20:29,120 –> 01:20:32,885
fundamentally, our biology is wired that way,

1314
01:20:34,145 –> 01:20:37,985
and we are responsible, I think, at an individual level. You talked about, are we

1315
01:20:37,985 –> 01:20:41,800
unique? I think at an individual level, we are responsible for overcoming our own

1316
01:20:41,800 –> 01:20:45,239
biology. Mhmm. And by overcoming, I don’t mean altering our

1317
01:20:45,239 –> 01:20:48,855
biology, you know, through surgical means or medical means. That’s not what I’m talking

1318
01:20:48,855 –> 01:20:52,375
about. Yeah. I mean, overcoming our base desires, our base

1319
01:20:52,375 –> 01:20:56,190
appetites rising above. Again, because those things are going to exist. Maslow’s hierarchy of

1320
01:20:56,190 –> 01:20:59,870
needs exist because Maslow understood that there was a hierarchy of

1321
01:20:59,870 –> 01:21:03,715
needs. Correct. But that hierarchy of needs is just at

1322
01:21:03,715 –> 01:21:07,315
the bottom level of where the rest of the things in the hierarchy should

1323
01:21:07,315 –> 01:21:10,375
be. It’s true. It’s yes. It’s

1324
01:21:10,840 –> 01:21:14,360
absolutely true. The discovery of something that you know exists and then

1325
01:21:14,360 –> 01:21:17,960
furthering your decision to get into it, it opens

1326
01:21:17,960 –> 01:21:21,325
up so many parallels that

1327
01:21:21,325 –> 01:21:25,125
that then expand someone else’s ability to

1328
01:21:25,125 –> 01:21:28,770
to make an impact. So. Wow. That’s deep. I’m sorry.

1329
01:21:28,830 –> 01:21:31,310
I’ll leave it alone. Let’s go back to No. No. No. You’re good. No. You’re

1330
01:21:31,310 –> 01:21:33,710
good. Well and and, you know, and, you know, and the other thing is and

1331
01:21:33,710 –> 01:21:36,905
I’m writing a whole chapter about this in my 4th book. It’s hopefully going to

1332
01:21:36,905 –> 01:21:40,604
be upcoming here in about a year.

1333
01:21:41,145 –> 01:21:44,684
Because I think what we’ve done with the internet,

1334
01:21:45,360 –> 01:21:48,180
Let me bounce this idea off. And you could think about this while talking about

1335
01:21:48,640 –> 01:21:52,480
about Jocko and about, and about, part 3,

1336
01:21:52,480 –> 01:21:54,100
which is how do we sustain victory?

1337
01:21:57,855 –> 01:22:01,635
What we’ve done with the Internet is we’ve caused a revolution

1338
01:22:01,775 –> 01:22:05,560
to begin. So So the commercial Internet got turned on by Timothy Berners Lee

1339
01:22:05,560 –> 01:22:09,239
in 1989. And once the commercial Internet got

1340
01:22:09,239 –> 01:22:11,739
turned on, it started with email and AOL,

1341
01:22:13,215 –> 01:22:16,735
and a little server called a little server, sorry, a little browser called

1342
01:22:16,735 –> 01:22:20,495
Netscape that was built by, by a couple of by a couple of

1343
01:22:20,495 –> 01:22:24,170
kids in by a couple of kids in, in Illinois who eventually

1344
01:22:24,170 –> 01:22:27,850
became, you know, Mark Andreessen and a couple of other folks out there in Silicon

1345
01:22:27,850 –> 01:22:31,355
Valley who are now worth 1,000,000,000 of dollars and are techno optimists. Okay.

1346
01:22:31,995 –> 01:22:35,435
It’s been a long strange trip. I was there at the beginning of it. It’s

1347
01:22:35,435 –> 01:22:38,155
been really interesting. You were there at the beginning of it. A lot of us

1348
01:22:38,155 –> 01:22:41,090
were there at the beginning of it. But a lot more of us, we now

1349
01:22:41,090 –> 01:22:44,050
have 2 or 3 generations now, getting ready to be 4 generations that have just

1350
01:22:44,050 –> 01:22:47,489
been born into it with it just being there. Yep. The

1351
01:22:47,489 –> 01:22:51,315
revolution that we started, we

1352
01:22:51,315 –> 01:22:54,675
will not fully be able to take take, I

1353
01:22:54,675 –> 01:22:58,230
believe measure of for probably another

1354
01:22:58,230 –> 01:23:02,070
500 years. Because what happened with the turning on of the

1355
01:23:02,070 –> 01:23:05,915
of the Internet was as revolutionary an act of

1356
01:23:05,915 –> 01:23:09,275
human engagement as was the printing

1357
01:23:09,275 –> 01:23:12,740
press. Mhmm. And when the printing press finally got

1358
01:23:12,740 –> 01:23:16,420
promulgated, wars happened, revolutions happened, but

1359
01:23:16,420 –> 01:23:19,800
also reformations and renaissance has happened.

1360
01:23:20,195 –> 01:23:23,635
All of Luther’s reformation, all the protestant revolution and the protestant

1361
01:23:23,635 –> 01:23:27,335
reformation, none of that would have happened without the printing press, without mass distribution.

1362
01:23:27,955 –> 01:23:31,750
Okay. The same thing is happening right now with the internet and the

1363
01:23:31,750 –> 01:23:35,350
internet is an engagement machine. And so now you and

1364
01:23:35,350 –> 01:23:39,155
I who share similar life paths, but before the internet may never have

1365
01:23:39,155 –> 01:23:42,855
sent a letter to each other. Now we can connect here, like,

1366
01:23:43,155 –> 01:23:46,915
and not even leave our house, not even leave our house. I I can even

1367
01:23:46,915 –> 01:23:50,370
reach out to I was joking with one of my former employees because he was

1368
01:23:50,370 –> 01:23:53,730
a big Joe Rogan, and he’s a big Joe Rogan fan. He’s like, oh, you

1369
01:23:53,730 –> 01:23:57,015
can’t get Joe Rogan. I literally dead I dead eyed him, and I go, he’s

1370
01:23:57,015 –> 01:23:59,755
a young kid. He was only like maybe 19 or 20 at the time. I

1371
01:23:59,815 –> 01:24:03,574
said, anybody can be gotten with the internet anywhere. I can go get

1372
01:24:03,574 –> 01:24:07,120
Joe Rogan. It’s just a matter of time. It’s gonna be, you have to wear

1373
01:24:07,120 –> 01:24:10,719
them down. Right. Or what is that? Or I just have

1374
01:24:10,719 –> 01:24:14,015
to do enough good work. We all have to do enough good work to create

1375
01:24:14,015 –> 01:24:17,855
those engagements and create those connections through our content. Yeah. And

1376
01:24:17,855 –> 01:24:21,395
now the Internet is this big sampling and connection and narrowcasting

1377
01:24:21,775 –> 01:24:25,310
machine that’s creating revolutions that, to quote from

1378
01:24:25,310 –> 01:24:29,010
Malcolm x, take land. They take property.

1379
01:24:29,070 –> 01:24:32,455
That’s what a revolution does, and he was exactly right.

1380
01:24:33,815 –> 01:24:37,575
Yeah. He was exactly right. And, no, with

1381
01:24:37,575 –> 01:24:41,400
Joe Rogan, you’re absolutely right. The thing, I sent to

1382
01:24:41,400 –> 01:24:44,940
his his, his booking agent last was, I’ll earn it.

1383
01:24:45,560 –> 01:24:49,395
He’s like Yeah. He’s like, Joe hasn’t said anything yet. I said, that’s cool.

1384
01:24:49,395 –> 01:24:53,235
I’ll learn it. But every day, I’m providing more

1385
01:24:53,235 –> 01:24:57,010
and more value of what I could bring to his show. Right. So

1386
01:24:57,010 –> 01:25:00,690
I’m showing him all the things that I could bring to his show because you’re

1387
01:25:00,690 –> 01:25:04,150
right. Absolutely. You can. You anyone

1388
01:25:04,210 –> 01:25:07,785
can talk to anyone now, and that is not something that

1389
01:25:07,785 –> 01:25:11,625
existed when we were growing up in the eighties nineties. That is

1390
01:25:11,625 –> 01:25:15,260
not something that was something is far farfetched. It’s

1391
01:25:15,260 –> 01:25:18,940
a massive, massive upending. And we don’t

1392
01:25:18,940 –> 01:25:22,700
really appreciate how much No. We don’t. Things have been upended, but but we are

1393
01:25:22,700 –> 01:25:26,015
going to. We are, we’re going to,

1394
01:25:26,395 –> 01:25:29,755
well, yeah, it goes right into where we’re going in the book. It

1395
01:25:29,755 –> 01:25:33,500
does back to the book. Speaking of which, back to the book, back to

1396
01:25:33,740 –> 01:25:37,260
extreme ownership, how US Navy seals lead and win,

1397
01:25:37,420 –> 01:25:41,020
by Jocko Willock at Leaf Babin. As Ari has been pointed out, the

1398
01:25:41,020 –> 01:25:44,035
version that I have and the version that one of the versions that Atlas has,

1399
01:25:44,335 –> 01:25:48,095
has the New York Times number one bestseller, a ribbon

1400
01:25:48,095 –> 01:25:51,380
across the front with a new forward and q and a section. By the way,

1401
01:25:51,380 –> 01:25:54,820
the q and a section comes directly from questions asked to

1402
01:25:54,820 –> 01:25:58,119
Jocko or or or or emailed into his show,

1403
01:25:59,594 –> 01:26:03,355
are you built into him from listeners of his show? Sorry. That’s how I want

1404
01:26:03,355 –> 01:26:07,114
to frame that. By the way, I’ve also read, a number of

1405
01:26:07,114 –> 01:26:10,770
other of Jocko’s books, including leadership

1406
01:26:10,770 –> 01:26:13,990
strategy and tactics, the dichotomy of leadership,

1407
01:26:15,330 –> 01:26:18,425
the leadership field manual, the big thick one,

1408
01:26:19,045 –> 01:26:22,405
and a couple of other ones that he’s put out there. So as you could

1409
01:26:22,405 –> 01:26:26,239
tell, I’m I’m a huge, I’m a huge proponent of what Jocko’s,

1410
01:26:26,460 –> 01:26:30,000
putting out here today, and Leaf as well.

1411
01:26:30,219 –> 01:26:33,520
Alright. Part 3, sustaining victory. So

1412
01:26:33,905 –> 01:26:37,425
it begins with chapter 9. I’m talking

1413
01:26:37,425 –> 01:26:40,805
about a hostage rescue occurring in Ramadi.

1414
01:26:41,350 –> 01:26:44,570
Right? The the rescue of a young Iraqi teenager,

1415
01:26:45,190 –> 01:26:48,810
who had been kidnapped by an Al Qaeda linked terrorist group

1416
01:26:49,185 –> 01:26:52,545
who demanded that his family pay $50,000 in ransom for his

1417
01:26:52,545 –> 01:26:56,340
release. By the way, a task unit bruiser,

1418
01:26:56,420 –> 01:27:00,119
the task unit that, that Jocko and Leaf led,

1419
01:27:01,300 –> 01:27:05,060
which also included, Mark Lee and Chris Kyle, key of

1420
01:27:05,060 –> 01:27:08,805
American sniper fame. Yep. Were the

1421
01:27:08,805 –> 01:27:12,645
ones who were engaging quite a bit in Ramadi. And all of

1422
01:27:12,645 –> 01:27:16,265
these experiences that he talks about, the Leaf and Jocko talk about in book,

1423
01:27:16,630 –> 01:27:20,470
come out of those experiences, including this hostage rescue, which

1424
01:27:20,470 –> 01:27:23,770
apparently, we did on the regular.

1425
01:27:25,515 –> 01:27:28,815
Now the point of this first piece around planning,

1426
01:27:30,155 –> 01:27:32,650
and I love, by the way, just as a side note, I love in the

1427
01:27:32,650 –> 01:27:34,890
chapter planning where he talks about how Mark Lee,

1428
01:27:36,410 –> 01:27:40,094
quoted quoted the line from Michael BN in the

1429
01:27:40,094 –> 01:27:43,775
19 90 movie. We don’t exist. We and I

1430
01:27:43,775 –> 01:27:47,460
quote from Michael BN, we’re a SEAL team. We’re here to get you out.

1431
01:27:47,540 –> 01:27:51,140
There’s no reason to thank us because we don’t exist. You never saw

1432
01:27:51,140 –> 01:27:54,980
us. This never happened. What are you dead eyes,

1433
01:27:54,980 –> 01:27:58,215
the kid? I can’t tell you, like, these guys

1434
01:27:58,935 –> 01:28:02,615
okay. So combat brings out a a point of humor

1435
01:28:02,615 –> 01:28:06,330
that no one really understands unless they’re there. Like, comedians

1436
01:28:06,330 –> 01:28:10,070
do a great job of pointing out what everyone thinks but doesn’t say.

1437
01:28:10,290 –> 01:28:13,730
Right. And war does the same thing. So you find

1438
01:28:13,730 –> 01:28:17,525
yourself laughing at the the points where you

1439
01:28:17,525 –> 01:28:21,285
probably shouldn’t be laughing, and and I can just see this happening. I I mean,

1440
01:28:21,285 –> 01:28:24,570
I wasn’t there, obviously, but Right. Like, I can just see this happening, and I

1441
01:28:24,570 –> 01:28:28,170
could totally tell you what happened. I I mean, I could see it. I mean,

1442
01:28:28,170 –> 01:28:31,885
this is what on the regular, these guys are hilarious like that. So Well and

1443
01:28:31,885 –> 01:28:35,145
I think you have to be because humor is that thing that just releases

1444
01:28:35,525 –> 01:28:38,005
all the pressure and the tension of the stress because you can’t be you can’t

1445
01:28:38,005 –> 01:28:40,590
be down in the mouth all of the time. I mean Yeah. You just have

1446
01:28:40,590 –> 01:28:44,430
bullets flying past your head. Come on. It’s fine. It’s a start of the

1447
01:28:44,430 –> 01:28:47,705
day in paradise. It’s fine. Well and it never stops either, man. Because I was

1448
01:28:47,705 –> 01:28:51,465
on a podcast with the Green Beret and a seal, called

1449
01:28:51,465 –> 01:28:55,080
harder, not smarter. They just started a podcast recently. And these guys

1450
01:28:55,080 –> 01:28:58,860
are still the same funny, and and they’re they’re still jabbing me.

1451
01:28:59,560 –> 01:29:03,195
And there’s it’s their humor is on point, and it’s

1452
01:29:03,195 –> 01:29:06,715
for everyone. So Yeah. Reading that in there too, I mean, I chuckled, but I

1453
01:29:06,715 –> 01:29:10,395
was like, yeah, that that’s exactly what was said. Well, the point of the

1454
01:29:10,395 –> 01:29:14,210
chapter on planning is for any team and for any team, whether it’s

1455
01:29:14,210 –> 01:29:17,570
in business, whether it’s in the military, whether it’s in industry, whether it’s even in

1456
01:29:17,570 –> 01:29:21,170
your home. Right? A plan is a standardized planning

1457
01:29:21,170 –> 01:29:24,505
process is essential. And and quite frankly, I agree.

1458
01:29:25,205 –> 01:29:28,185
The point that’s made here is that

1459
01:29:29,660 –> 01:29:32,560
to the point about goals, right, that Atlas was making earlier,

1460
01:29:33,500 –> 01:29:35,980
goals are fine for writing those down, but then you have to go in the

1461
01:29:35,980 –> 01:29:39,440
weeds and you have to figure out what the actual plan is. This is where

1462
01:29:40,125 –> 01:29:43,485
many entrepreneurs and small business owners fail on the planning

1463
01:29:43,485 –> 01:29:47,324
piece. They don’t fail to do the day to day. They fail to document

1464
01:29:47,324 –> 01:29:50,910
and standardize the plan. And so this chapter was very much about

1465
01:29:50,910 –> 01:29:54,750
the documentation and the standardization of planning in addition

1466
01:29:54,750 –> 01:29:58,565
to a unique process of debriefing, which I was talking about

1467
01:29:58,565 –> 01:30:02,245
years before I read this book, because I found out that the special forces did

1468
01:30:02,245 –> 01:30:05,625
it, and I thought that’s brilliant. This idea of debriefing

1469
01:30:06,470 –> 01:30:10,090
after an intense engagement and figuring out the answers

1470
01:30:10,150 –> 01:30:13,805
to, one of 3 actually figured out

1471
01:30:13,805 –> 01:30:17,485
the answers to all three questions, what went right, what went wrong, and how can

1472
01:30:17,485 –> 01:30:21,105
we make this better for the future, whether we are succeeding

1473
01:30:21,485 –> 01:30:24,930
or failing When you fail to plan,

1474
01:30:24,990 –> 01:30:27,490
well, guess what? You’re going to get failure.

1475
01:30:30,545 –> 01:30:34,164
Leading up and down the chain of command is chapter 10, the chapter written by

1476
01:30:34,224 –> 01:30:36,965
Leif Babin, which makes an important point

1477
01:30:37,744 –> 01:30:41,220
that many people forget, particularly junior leaders.

1478
01:30:42,720 –> 01:30:46,215
Junior leaders have a responsibility to lead up the chain, but junior

1479
01:30:46,215 –> 01:30:49,975
leaders also have a responsibility to lead down the chain. And I would talk about

1480
01:30:49,975 –> 01:30:53,110
this a lot with managers and supervisors that I train

1481
01:30:53,590 –> 01:30:57,270
through my consultancy Leadership Toolbox. And, of course, I’ve

1482
01:30:57,270 –> 01:31:01,115
written about this in, again, my book, 12 Rules for Leaders. Leading up

1483
01:31:01,115 –> 01:31:04,655
and down the chain of command means, yes, understanding,

1484
01:31:05,515 –> 01:31:08,900
as Leif puts it, commander’s intent. But it’s also

1485
01:31:08,900 –> 01:31:11,480
paramount that senior leaders and junior leaders

1486
01:31:12,500 –> 01:31:16,340
understand the big picture and understand where they sit in the big

1487
01:31:16,340 –> 01:31:20,114
picture in order to effectively lead up and down the chain

1488
01:31:20,114 –> 01:31:23,795
of command. I’m currently going through we’re not going

1489
01:31:23,795 –> 01:31:27,510
through. I mean, I’m engaged in a project, with

1490
01:31:27,730 –> 01:31:31,570
another individual, and he is senior to me in

1491
01:31:31,570 –> 01:31:35,295
that project. Right. And he has a lot of experience. He

1492
01:31:35,295 –> 01:31:38,655
has a lot of knowledge. I can’t take that away from him. And I realize

1493
01:31:38,655 –> 01:31:42,070
in reading this chapter, and this is just a thing that happened right now, right?

1494
01:31:42,310 –> 01:31:45,989
When I was recently rereading this book for the podcast, I need to be leading

1495
01:31:45,989 –> 01:31:49,525
him better because I’m junior to him. Right? But I also need to

1496
01:31:49,525 –> 01:31:53,125
understand what the overall mission is for the project that we are

1497
01:31:53,125 –> 01:31:56,960
engaged in. Chapter 11 is about decisiveness

1498
01:31:57,420 –> 01:32:01,040
and amid uncertainty. How do you take the shot?

1499
01:32:02,220 –> 01:32:05,975
Now in my time, I’ve known a few marine snipers. Matter of fact,

1500
01:32:05,975 –> 01:32:09,815
I’ve known a couple of guys who were, literally graduated high school and then

1501
01:32:09,815 –> 01:32:13,195
right went right to Afghanistan in October of 2,001.

1502
01:32:14,270 –> 01:32:17,870
I’ve known snipers in my time. Matter of fact, I I can name offhand 3

1503
01:32:17,870 –> 01:32:21,650
people for sure who I know of I’m absolutely sure have killed people,

1504
01:32:22,190 –> 01:32:25,645
for sure. And there is nothing more

1505
01:32:25,645 –> 01:32:29,485
stressful than being a sniper. I

1506
01:32:29,485 –> 01:32:32,980
cannot imagine a more stressful or stress inducing role

1507
01:32:33,360 –> 01:32:36,719
in the military because if you’re wrong, it’s a

1508
01:32:36,719 –> 01:32:40,405
real problem either

1509
01:32:40,405 –> 01:32:44,085
way. And that’s the end of the sentence. And

1510
01:32:44,085 –> 01:32:47,600
so this chapter begins with,

1511
01:32:47,680 –> 01:32:50,820
relating leaf bab and relating a story about Chris Kyle,

1512
01:32:51,840 –> 01:32:55,635
looking down, a scope and seeing an individual with a scope

1513
01:32:55,635 –> 01:32:58,455
weapon in another building and asking,

1514
01:32:59,395 –> 01:33:03,230
do I take the shot or not? What is happening here?

1515
01:33:04,010 –> 01:33:07,530
How do you have decisiveness amid uncertainty when outcomes are

1516
01:33:07,530 –> 01:33:11,115
unclear, when directions are unclear, and even

1517
01:33:11,115 –> 01:33:14,955
when the process is unclear, and when success is

1518
01:33:14,955 –> 01:33:18,370
not clearly defined? What does it mean to not be

1519
01:33:18,370 –> 01:33:21,970
paralyzed by fear and how do you act? And

1520
01:33:21,970 –> 01:33:25,815
Atlas already brought this up. How do you act decisively? One

1521
01:33:25,815 –> 01:33:29,515
of the other points that Leaf makes in this chapter is about this idea,

1522
01:33:29,575 –> 01:33:32,775
and Jocko talks about a little bit on his podcast as well, this idea of

1523
01:33:32,775 –> 01:33:36,619
being default aggressive, which many people in the

1524
01:33:36,619 –> 01:33:40,380
civilian world don’t understand what that means. But I

1525
01:33:40,380 –> 01:33:44,080
frame it this way for managers and leaders being default aggressive

1526
01:33:44,219 –> 01:33:47,655
means always moving forward and taking territory, to

1527
01:33:47,655 –> 01:33:51,255
paraphrase from George c Scott as Patton back in that great

1528
01:33:51,255 –> 01:33:55,000
19 seventies movie Patton. We don’t retreat. We

1529
01:33:55,000 –> 01:33:58,360
let the hun do that. We’re gonna grab him by the nose, and we’re gonna

1530
01:33:58,360 –> 01:34:01,800
kick him in the ass. And

1531
01:34:01,800 –> 01:34:05,305
that’s what managers have to do. That’s what leaders have to

1532
01:34:05,305 –> 01:34:08,825
do in many organizations and cultures. And very often in your

1533
01:34:08,825 –> 01:34:12,440
family, that’s what you have to do. But there is a measure to this,

1534
01:34:12,440 –> 01:34:15,980
and that then goes into the last chapter, chapter 12,

1535
01:34:17,080 –> 01:34:20,655
the discipline transformation, discipline equals freedom, and the

1536
01:34:20,655 –> 01:34:24,255
dichotomy of leadership. Do we wanna be default

1537
01:34:24,255 –> 01:34:27,470
aggressive all of the time? Do we want to,

1538
01:34:27,870 –> 01:34:31,330
be taking ownership everywhere all of the time?

1539
01:34:31,790 –> 01:34:35,310
Do we want to be telling other people to cover and move and making everything

1540
01:34:35,310 –> 01:34:37,324
simple all of the time?

1541
01:34:39,705 –> 01:34:43,465
Or are there no absolutes? Is there some

1542
01:34:43,465 –> 01:34:47,100
times when maybe it’s okay to just step

1543
01:34:47,100 –> 01:34:50,700
back a little bit and breathe? Is it okay when

1544
01:34:50,700 –> 01:34:54,435
sometimes when there’s chaos and mayhem, particularly maybe around a

1545
01:34:54,435 –> 01:34:58,114
health problem or a wealth problem, to actually listen to the

1546
01:34:58,114 –> 01:35:01,940
problem before we make a solution? How do leaders

1547
01:35:01,960 –> 01:35:05,580
propose a solution? How do leaders navigate those dichotomies?

1548
01:35:06,040 –> 01:35:09,640
That’s the point of the dichotomy of leadership. And of course, he expands on this

1549
01:35:09,640 –> 01:35:13,177
in his book, the dichotomy of leadership, which I would

1550
01:35:13,177 –> 01:35:16,922
also recommend that you pick up. Reading through these

1551
01:35:16,922 –> 01:35:20,250
last chapters 9 through 12 in sustaining victory,

1552
01:35:21,450 –> 01:35:25,050
I was I recalled my experiences at the University of Minnesota. Normally, I don’t talk

1553
01:35:25,050 –> 01:35:28,730
about the University of Minnesota on this podcast, and I don’t talk about the people

1554
01:35:28,730 –> 01:35:32,315
who led me there, not Not because those experiences were bad, but because I don’t

1555
01:35:32,315 –> 01:35:35,295
wanna put the University of Minnesota on blast. And so,

1556
01:35:36,955 –> 01:35:40,310
but it’s enough time has passed since I was since I’ve been there. It’s been

1557
01:35:40,310 –> 01:35:43,830
almost 15 years, so I think perhaps I can talk about this

1558
01:35:43,830 –> 01:35:47,505
now. I failed to lead

1559
01:35:47,505 –> 01:35:51,344
up when I was at the University of Minnesota in an administrative position. I

1560
01:35:51,344 –> 01:35:54,485
was a young leader with a young team,

1561
01:35:55,010 –> 01:35:58,850
Didn’t really know what I was doing. But also the senior leadership who

1562
01:35:58,850 –> 01:36:02,370
was above me, kind of left me there to fend for

1563
01:36:02,370 –> 01:36:05,815
myself. Matter of fact, I’m thinking of a particular person who I will not

1564
01:36:05,815 –> 01:36:09,355
name, who when I asked,

1565
01:36:09,815 –> 01:36:13,480
what’s my plan here? What’s my future? The

1566
01:36:13,480 –> 01:36:16,920
person responded to me by saying, well, you just have to figure that out yourself.

1567
01:36:16,920 –> 01:36:20,520
I can’t tell that for I can’t tell you that. I

1568
01:36:20,520 –> 01:36:24,185
can’t provide you with that sort of direction. And then he sort of

1569
01:36:24,185 –> 01:36:26,844
laughed and kept eating his salad at lunch.

1570
01:36:28,665 –> 01:36:32,040
That’s poor leadership. That

1571
01:36:32,180 –> 01:36:35,640
guy was a poor leader or another

1572
01:36:36,020 –> 01:36:39,480
supervisor that I had who every time I spoke to him,

1573
01:36:40,005 –> 01:36:42,105
I felt like I was being politic.

1574
01:36:43,765 –> 01:36:47,365
And I inherently, because it happened to be as a young leader, I

1575
01:36:47,365 –> 01:36:51,110
inherently am sensitive to that now. And I could spot a fake,

1576
01:36:51,170 –> 01:36:53,989
like a dime on the highway at 80 miles an hour.

1577
01:36:56,050 –> 01:36:59,270
I also thought when I was reading this book,

1578
01:36:59,995 –> 01:37:03,755
reading this chapter on sustaining victory of my experiences playing rugby, which

1579
01:37:03,755 –> 01:37:07,595
I’ve already mentioned on this podcast and, the rugby team that I

1580
01:37:07,595 –> 01:37:10,960
was on were a lot of good guys, and they had a lot of

1581
01:37:10,960 –> 01:37:14,420
good, a lot of good hearts. But the coach

1582
01:37:14,800 –> 01:37:18,475
lacked decisiveness, And a lack of decisiveness leads to

1583
01:37:18,475 –> 01:37:22,074
not winning. Lack of decisiveness leads to collapse on the

1584
01:37:22,074 –> 01:37:25,850
rugby scrum. It leads to collapse in the rugby field. It

1585
01:37:25,850 –> 01:37:28,510
leads to me standing out there in

1586
01:37:29,929 –> 01:37:33,225
20 degree cold in the middle of

1587
01:37:33,465 –> 01:37:36,285
February or the middle of October or the middle of November,

1588
01:37:37,305 –> 01:37:40,825
staring into the pack as I’m watching big burly

1589
01:37:40,825 –> 01:37:44,350
men, not able to cover the ball

1590
01:37:44,970 –> 01:37:48,110
and yelling at each other about who failed what.

1591
01:37:49,045 –> 01:37:52,804
Not exactly engaged in cover and move, not prioritizing and

1592
01:37:52,804 –> 01:37:56,264
executing, not having decisiveness amid uncertainty

1593
01:37:56,810 –> 01:38:00,270
and not having ownership in leadership starting

1594
01:38:00,570 –> 01:38:04,330
from the top. No plan always

1595
01:38:04,330 –> 01:38:07,925
equals no future. My, my

1596
01:38:07,925 –> 01:38:10,985
old supervisor at the university of Minnesota

1597
01:38:11,605 –> 01:38:14,505
was exactly correct about that.

1598
01:38:16,630 –> 01:38:19,210
So Atlas is a lot there,

1599
01:38:20,390 –> 01:38:23,530
but we’re rounding the corner. We’re going to talk about solutions to problems.

1600
01:38:23,910 –> 01:38:27,715
Yeah. How can leaders navigate the dichotomies of

1601
01:38:27,715 –> 01:38:31,554
leadership on their teams? You know,

1602
01:38:31,554 –> 01:38:33,554
how do we deal with all this? How do we put all this in a

1603
01:38:33,554 –> 01:38:37,210
box together for folks today? Yeah. We can we can sum this up

1604
01:38:37,210 –> 01:38:40,349
really easily, but it’s not gonna be simple.

1605
01:38:43,745 –> 01:38:47,505
Yeah. So realize that there are lots of dichotomies in

1606
01:38:47,505 –> 01:38:51,205
leadership. Everyone thinks that they know. But

1607
01:38:51,949 –> 01:38:55,710
management and leadership are 2 separate things, and

1608
01:38:55,710 –> 01:38:59,550
you have to let managers manage. And whenever you’re asking

1609
01:38:59,550 –> 01:39:02,945
a manager like you did at the university, what’s my plan,

1610
01:39:03,725 –> 01:39:07,265
you can’t expect them to be a leader because they only know how to manage.

1611
01:39:07,485 –> 01:39:11,310
You nailed it. Not a good leader. Great manager probably. Not

1612
01:39:11,310 –> 01:39:15,070
a good leader. And the difference between management and leadership is

1613
01:39:15,070 –> 01:39:18,910
this. The management sections were

1614
01:39:18,910 –> 01:39:21,725
in a little ago when

1615
01:39:23,225 –> 01:39:27,065
oh, let’s just we could pay people way more money to do

1616
01:39:27,065 –> 01:39:30,820
something simple. And if they repeat that task over and over again, we could take

1617
01:39:30,820 –> 01:39:34,580
somebody who’s making 30¢ and give them $3 and create

1618
01:39:34,580 –> 01:39:38,364
what we now know as management. If they manage something that’s

1619
01:39:38,364 –> 01:39:42,125
continuously done over and over again, it’s easy for them to manage,

1620
01:39:42,125 –> 01:39:45,150
and they can make sure that it works. And if you put a lot of

1621
01:39:45,150 –> 01:39:48,989
managers on a line, you need a leader. A leader to say, we need

1622
01:39:48,989 –> 01:39:52,565
to do this many things in this many days,

1623
01:39:52,705 –> 01:39:55,605
or there needs to be a metric or a future

1624
01:39:56,385 –> 01:40:00,145
that’s described. That all comes together in a

1625
01:40:00,145 –> 01:40:03,990
plan. So whenever you’re looking at the dichotomies, you

1626
01:40:03,990 –> 01:40:06,730
have to realize there are managers who think they are leaders.

1627
01:40:08,205 –> 01:40:11,985
And telling them that they’re managers is probably gonna be a stroke to their ego.

1628
01:40:12,844 –> 01:40:16,210
And that’s okay sometimes, but a lot of times it’s not. Giving them a

1629
01:40:16,210 –> 01:40:19,970
specific task to manage, and then say you’re in

1630
01:40:19,970 –> 01:40:23,670
charge of leading that effort, is how it’s done today.

1631
01:40:24,265 –> 01:40:27,865
And so people get confused on management leadership quite often, and they expect

1632
01:40:27,865 –> 01:40:31,485
managers to be leaders, and that shouldn’t be in your plan.

1633
01:40:32,070 –> 01:40:35,590
That should be something that you go back to where where you started

1634
01:40:35,590 –> 01:40:39,430
this. Know your people. Know what they’re capable of. Know what they’re

1635
01:40:39,430 –> 01:40:43,075
going to produce and all that’s there. And where does that get

1636
01:40:43,075 –> 01:40:45,335
found out? You nailed it with the debriefs.

1637
01:40:46,675 –> 01:40:50,215
So there’s a rugby team. It’s the most winningest team

1638
01:40:50,350 –> 01:40:54,190
of any sports ever. It’s called the All Blacks. And

1639
01:40:54,190 –> 01:40:57,795
the All Blacks do something that a lot of teams don’t do every

1640
01:40:57,795 –> 01:41:01,555
time they get done with their their their play on the ground.

1641
01:41:01,555 –> 01:41:04,675
They all get into the locker room and they say, you sucked at this. You

1642
01:41:04,675 –> 01:41:08,370
were great at that. Blah blah blah, but they’re brutally freaking

1643
01:41:08,830 –> 01:41:12,590
honest. Honesty is something you can’t buy, but you can

1644
01:41:12,590 –> 01:41:16,185
build it. And when you build honesty into a

1645
01:41:16,185 –> 01:41:20,025
team, you’ll figure out who is there for what. And

1646
01:41:20,025 –> 01:41:23,250
if they’re looking for self preservation, you’ll be able to correct that

1647
01:41:23,490 –> 01:41:27,250
early whenever they start blaming everyone else for something

1648
01:41:27,250 –> 01:41:30,610
that happened. The people who are true leaders are the ones that take

1649
01:41:30,610 –> 01:41:33,804
accountability, which is Extreme Ownership in the book we’re talking about.

1650
01:41:34,264 –> 01:41:37,965
When you find that built in quality, those are what we call born

1651
01:41:38,105 –> 01:41:41,625
leaders. But even born leaders have to learn how to

1652
01:41:41,625 –> 01:41:45,329
grow. So born leaders and people who

1653
01:41:45,329 –> 01:41:49,010
are learning how to be leaders symbiotically come

1654
01:41:49,010 –> 01:41:52,605
together whenever you have a hot wash or a debrief.

1655
01:41:52,985 –> 01:41:56,685
We call them both in the military. And that is

1656
01:41:57,140 –> 01:42:00,180
what just happened, let’s see if we can do it better next time. And guess

1657
01:42:00,180 –> 01:42:03,620
what, if you think about it, if you talk about it, if you start figuring

1658
01:42:03,620 –> 01:42:07,275
out who people are, well then you become a winning

1659
01:42:07,275 –> 01:42:10,875
team like the All Blacks. There’s nobody who’s won

1660
01:42:10,875 –> 01:42:14,550
more than them, and it’s because of their their

1661
01:42:14,550 –> 01:42:18,170
ability to lead up and down the chain of command. They talk to their coaches

1662
01:42:18,469 –> 01:42:22,264
the same way that they talk because it’s an open forum. The

1663
01:42:22,264 –> 01:42:25,625
other thing that I love about that team is they all respect each

1664
01:42:25,625 –> 01:42:29,304
other. You know they have this environment where they can say

1665
01:42:29,304 –> 01:42:32,860
whatever they wanna say, and realize it’s not personal,

1666
01:42:33,160 –> 01:42:36,540
it’s business. But wait a minute, Atlas. You don’t understand.

1667
01:42:36,840 –> 01:42:40,665
I get this a lot. This this pushback. I’m gonna push back on you.

1668
01:42:40,745 –> 01:42:43,405
Yeah. Go. Wait a minute. You don’t understand.

1669
01:42:44,425 –> 01:42:48,265
I’m a mid level manager in a massive bureaucracy, and these people

1670
01:42:48,265 –> 01:42:51,830
were just given to me. Yes. I don’t get to sit in on the

1671
01:42:51,830 –> 01:42:55,510
meetings where they’re hired. I don’t get to give my input. No

1672
01:42:55,510 –> 01:42:59,315
one asks me. They rip away my team or they rip away half or

1673
01:42:59,315 –> 01:43:02,994
a percentage or a quarter or whatever, and they give me these people that are

1674
01:43:02,994 –> 01:43:06,720
underdeveloped, underfunded. Then they tell me they want me to do these missions.

1675
01:43:06,720 –> 01:43:10,160
You don’t understand. You were in the military. You could get whatever you

1676
01:43:10,160 –> 01:43:13,875
wanted, whenever you wanted it, however you wanted it. And I gotta work out

1677
01:43:13,875 –> 01:43:16,835
here where people that can’t stay that don’t say yes or no, sir, and they

1678
01:43:16,835 –> 01:43:19,815
come in here with their purple hair, and they come in here with their requirements,

1679
01:43:19,955 –> 01:43:23,790
and they wanna leave it at 4:30 in the afternoon on a Monday. And I

1680
01:43:23,790 –> 01:43:27,310
had to bust my behind to get here, and I’ve been in this role for

1681
01:43:27,310 –> 01:43:31,145
25 years, and I know what you don’t get it. Yeah.

1682
01:43:31,284 –> 01:43:34,565
Don’t you love hearing that? Oh, I love it. You you you tell I’ve heard

1683
01:43:34,565 –> 01:43:38,244
that you tell I’ve heard that quite a bit. Yeah. I I absolutely love that

1684
01:43:38,244 –> 01:43:41,830
problem because I know what the problem is. Yeah. It’s it’s them.

1685
01:43:41,830 –> 01:43:45,430
It’s them. It’s always them. Everybody who gives me

1686
01:43:45,430 –> 01:43:49,045
that has not figured it out That they can ask for the

1687
01:43:49,045 –> 01:43:52,585
things that they need. They can document the true successes.

1688
01:43:53,125 –> 01:43:56,900
That the people that are underdeveloped can get trained. The the

1689
01:43:56,900 –> 01:44:00,740
time that they don’t have can be made. That all of the things that they

1690
01:44:00,740 –> 01:44:03,960
describe are things that they just haven’t done yet,

1691
01:44:04,724 –> 01:44:08,025
and they aren’t empowered to do it.

1692
01:44:08,405 –> 01:44:12,005
Or wait a minute, they don’t feel like they’re empowered. They don’t feel like they’re

1693
01:44:12,005 –> 01:44:15,550
empowered to do it. So the the biggest answer to

1694
01:44:15,550 –> 01:44:19,150
that whenever I hear it is, I empower you. I

1695
01:44:19,150 –> 01:44:22,985
empower you to fix it. I empower you to do it, or I empower

1696
01:44:22,985 –> 01:44:26,745
you to leave. And then guess what? Someone else is gonna come in

1697
01:44:26,745 –> 01:44:29,645
here and they’re gonna be like, I have all these problems that I can fix,

1698
01:44:30,119 –> 01:44:33,960
not complain about. Because in the military, we

1699
01:44:33,960 –> 01:44:37,400
hear that often too. The army likes to say you have to go to war

1700
01:44:37,400 –> 01:44:39,755
with the troops you were given, not the troops that you want.

1701
01:44:41,435 –> 01:44:44,335
Don Rosfeld. Don Rosfeld infamously said that.

1702
01:44:47,720 –> 01:44:51,560
It’s amazing if somebody at that level is saying you know what

1703
01:44:51,560 –> 01:44:55,285
I’m saying? So, like, I hear that all the time. I do. And

1704
01:44:55,285 –> 01:44:58,965
it’s also because they have not figured out who’s on their team. These

1705
01:44:58,965 –> 01:45:02,804
underdeveloped people probably just don’t want to do the job that you

1706
01:45:02,804 –> 01:45:05,840
hired them to do, And you didn’t ask them the questions

1707
01:45:06,540 –> 01:45:09,580
like you should have when they came in. What are they passionate about? What do

1708
01:45:09,580 –> 01:45:13,285
they want to contribute? How can I help you contribute what you

1709
01:45:13,285 –> 01:45:16,965
want to do? Because now they’ve accepted the ownership of something that

1710
01:45:16,965 –> 01:45:20,630
they’ve told you and you are now their coach to help

1711
01:45:20,630 –> 01:45:24,309
them get something better in life or the company or whatever the

1712
01:45:24,309 –> 01:45:28,070
mission set is. But yes, I love hearing

1713
01:45:28,070 –> 01:45:31,715
that because then I absolutely know what to look for. And then, I don’t know,

1714
01:45:31,715 –> 01:45:35,075
well, you probably do this too, but whenever I go into a company and then

1715
01:45:35,075 –> 01:45:38,630
I I come back 6 months later, I usually come back 6 months later. Yeah.

1716
01:45:38,710 –> 01:45:42,469
The people who say that don’t work there. Normally, they’re not Yeah. Usually, they’re gone.

1717
01:45:42,469 –> 01:45:46,070
Yeah. Usually, they’re not. They’re they’re like, well, if I can’t get what I

1718
01:45:46,070 –> 01:45:49,735
want, then I’m leaving. And then we’re like, bye. Bye.

1719
01:45:50,195 –> 01:45:53,690
Yeah. Because somebody else will probably hire you and you can complain

1720
01:45:53,930 –> 01:45:57,370
about the same things wherever you go because you’re gonna find the same problems if

1721
01:45:57,370 –> 01:46:01,210
you’re looking for it. Shockingly enough, your problems will follow you wherever

1722
01:46:01,210 –> 01:46:04,985
you go because, well, everywhere you look, there you are. Yes.

1723
01:46:04,985 –> 01:46:08,744
There you are in the mirror. Which which then goes

1724
01:46:08,744 –> 01:46:12,420
back to uncertainty. You know, they’re uncertain

1725
01:46:12,480 –> 01:46:16,239
on how to fix things, and then that’s a higher leadership problem. So usually

1726
01:46:16,239 –> 01:46:18,720
what I’ll end up doing is I’ll say, hey, I heard this, I’ve all I

1727
01:46:18,720 –> 01:46:21,594
hear this all the time. But you know, I told them that they’re empowered to

1728
01:46:21,594 –> 01:46:23,915
do this, you need to go in and tell them that they’re empowered to do

1729
01:46:23,915 –> 01:46:27,614
this. That just those words, I empower you to do this,

1730
01:46:27,740 –> 01:46:31,500
will change the the directive if they want their direction, if they

1731
01:46:31,500 –> 01:46:34,780
want to change. The other thing you need to do is realize that you have

1732
01:46:34,780 –> 01:46:38,594
a communication problem. Because whenever you have that,

1733
01:46:38,815 –> 01:46:42,594
it’s a real problem. And it’s because you didn’t communicate effectively.

1734
01:46:42,735 –> 01:46:46,390
So it’s being muddled, it’s being confused,

1735
01:46:46,449 –> 01:46:50,290
or it’s being misread, but you need to clarify what they’re able

1736
01:46:50,290 –> 01:46:54,050
to do and if they’re leaders or managers. The lack of

1737
01:46:54,050 –> 01:46:57,895
communication I wanna jump in here on this. Huge. Right?

1738
01:46:58,595 –> 01:47:02,195
So in my own personal life, my wife and I, in our

1739
01:47:02,195 –> 01:47:05,949
marriage, we try to have as clear and as open even about

1740
01:47:05,949 –> 01:47:09,469
things we don’t like as clear and open to communication between each other as we

1741
01:47:09,469 –> 01:47:13,055
possibly can because in the hierarchy of the

1742
01:47:13,055 –> 01:47:16,755
household, I’m the leader, she’s the leader,

1743
01:47:16,815 –> 01:47:19,739
and then we got the kids and we got the troops. Right? And then you’ve

1744
01:47:19,739 –> 01:47:23,500
got a bunch of other things happening there. And, and honestly, you know,

1745
01:47:23,500 –> 01:47:26,320
I’m not at the top of that hierarchy. God’s at the top of that hierarchy,

1746
01:47:26,460 –> 01:47:30,185
then there’s me. Then, you know, So, like, you know, that that’s how that

1747
01:47:30,185 –> 01:47:33,305
that’s how that kind of that that kind of works. That’s how that works. Right?

1748
01:47:33,305 –> 01:47:37,010
Absolutely. So clear communication up and down the chain has to

1749
01:47:37,010 –> 01:47:40,770
occur so there’s no confusion. And the the the the the

1750
01:47:40,770 –> 01:47:43,990
place of conflicts in our marriage has been when

1751
01:47:44,290 –> 01:47:47,755
clear communication was not there. When

1752
01:47:47,755 –> 01:47:51,215
things either wanted to be said but were not

1753
01:47:51,675 –> 01:47:55,250
or things were inferred from statements that were

1754
01:47:55,250 –> 01:47:58,949
made that were not tracked to reality. And so

1755
01:47:59,810 –> 01:48:03,145
we also see this, and I’m not unusual. The only reason I bring this

1756
01:48:03,201 –> 01:48:07,041
up is because it’s a touchpoint. Most

1757
01:48:07,097 –> 01:48:10,936
I believe fundamentally, many people struggle with

1758
01:48:10,993 –> 01:48:14,610
communication. And I believe fundamentally, leaders struggle with communication,

1759
01:48:14,909 –> 01:48:18,590
but not in terms of I’m going to word vomit on to other

1760
01:48:18,590 –> 01:48:22,005
folks. They’ve got that part. Yeah. It’s the

1761
01:48:22,065 –> 01:48:25,665
expectations of what other

1762
01:48:25,665 –> 01:48:29,320
people or how other people will communicate with them

1763
01:48:29,380 –> 01:48:33,220
that creates decisiveness and uncertainty. Yeah. So

1764
01:48:33,220 –> 01:48:37,035
you mentioned the all blacks. There’s an expectation in that culture Yeah.

1765
01:48:37,195 –> 01:48:40,554
That there’s going to be open communication and that there’s gonna be feedback in order

1766
01:48:40,554 –> 01:48:44,074
to facilitate communication regardless of the level of talent that you

1767
01:48:44,074 –> 01:48:47,530
have. We see this in in sports and in the military, you see it very,

1768
01:48:47,530 –> 01:48:51,370
very broadly because it’s sharp there because the the the outcomes are black and

1769
01:48:51,370 –> 01:48:54,590
white. Where it gets muddy is when the outcomes are hidden.

1770
01:48:56,015 –> 01:48:59,855
Yep. Or they’re not black and white or

1771
01:48:59,855 –> 01:49:03,635
the outcomes that are being clearly defined. So if you’re in a small business,

1772
01:49:05,210 –> 01:49:08,970
the owner of the small business, even though

1773
01:49:08,970 –> 01:49:12,755
they may be brilliant and may be a founder and an owner, they

1774
01:49:12,755 –> 01:49:16,489
are the ceiling on that business. They just always Always always

1775
01:49:16,755 –> 01:49:20,430
on the business. Unless they hired somebody to manage the business, they’re Right. They’re not

1776
01:49:20,430 –> 01:49:24,210
able to it’s not worth anything because you can’t sell their business. Right. Exactly.

1777
01:49:24,270 –> 01:49:26,955
And so when we work in our consult

1778
01:49:28,235 –> 01:49:29,734
with small businesses, because I I we had to do this ourselves. First, you gotta

1779
01:49:29,734 –> 01:49:31,935
do is write down your processes and your and your procedures and your tasks. Right?

1780
01:49:32,155 –> 01:49:34,495
AI. You have to make a plan.

1781
01:49:36,010 –> 01:49:39,550
Right? Yeah. Exact yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You have to make a plan.

1782
01:49:39,690 –> 01:49:42,809
Then after you’ve written down your processes and your procedures and your task list and

1783
01:49:42,809 –> 01:49:46,574
your operations and you’ve written down your organizational chart and you put everything together in

1784
01:49:46,574 –> 01:49:50,094
a nice package, now you actually have a business. That’s a business because that can

1785
01:49:50,094 –> 01:49:53,235
survive without you. That you can give to somebody else.

1786
01:49:54,020 –> 01:49:57,700
Is it harder to do that in a family? Yeah. But

1787
01:49:57,700 –> 01:50:01,540
not impossible. Is it really hard to do on the other end

1788
01:50:01,540 –> 01:50:05,304
of that in a civic organization? Maybe, but you should probably be doing that

1789
01:50:05,304 –> 01:50:08,985
once every 6 months anyway or once every year anyway. You should be checking

1790
01:50:08,985 –> 01:50:12,364
into seeing are the processes, the procedures, the plan that we have.

1791
01:50:12,840 –> 01:50:16,680
Are we still leading amid uncertainty? Because chaos is the only

1792
01:50:16,680 –> 01:50:20,280
guarantee stability you gotta work

1793
01:50:20,280 –> 01:50:23,615
for. Yeah. Well, I like this because we’re gonna parallel

1794
01:50:23,995 –> 01:50:27,775
companies to families now. So most people’s priorities

1795
01:50:27,835 –> 01:50:31,360
are health, wealth, and relationships. Those three things.

1796
01:50:31,660 –> 01:50:35,020
And in the book he talks about, leading up and down a chain. He starts

1797
01:50:35,020 –> 01:50:38,705
looking at the chain of command. When you’re a solopreneur,

1798
01:50:39,005 –> 01:50:42,625
an intrepreneur, whenever you own everything and you’re doing everything,

1799
01:50:43,405 –> 01:50:46,765
the line structure for that is one person does it all. And that’s not really

1800
01:50:46,765 –> 01:50:50,130
a business, just like you said. But when you start to hire people out and

1801
01:50:50,130 –> 01:50:53,830
you start to do things at a a bigger level because you have to,

1802
01:50:53,970 –> 01:50:57,685
things start to get crazy. And you have to put, like he said in

1803
01:50:57,685 –> 01:51:01,525
the book, you can only manage up to 6 people. I only

1804
01:51:01,525 –> 01:51:04,690
think you can manage up to 3. Because

1805
01:51:05,630 –> 01:51:09,310
giving more than 3 people your your, your time looks like this. This is how

1806
01:51:09,310 –> 01:51:12,110
I used to do it while I was deployed, by the way. So I do

1807
01:51:12,110 –> 01:51:15,855
what most people do in one day. I do 3 days worth

1808
01:51:15,855 –> 01:51:19,455
of work in one day because I split it up into this. I go morning

1809
01:51:19,455 –> 01:51:23,010
day, afternoon day, and evening day. And

1810
01:51:23,010 –> 01:51:26,610
then my priorities are morning day is usually a

1811
01:51:26,610 –> 01:51:30,290
podcast, afternoon day is usually my books and

1812
01:51:30,290 –> 01:51:34,100
writing, right, my social media, whatever. I’m gonna post out on

1813
01:51:34,100 –> 01:51:35,077
that. And then my 3rd day is my family. So I have three priorities right

1814
01:51:35,077 –> 01:51:35,764
there, because wherever you spend your time

1815
01:51:42,230 –> 01:51:46,070
is where your heart is. Right? Ah, I mean I don’t even have

1816
01:51:46,070 –> 01:51:49,775
to say anything about that. You get what I’m saying. Mhmm. So I’m putting my

1817
01:51:49,775 –> 01:51:53,135
priorities into my timeline like that, and then I’m looking at it each night. And

1818
01:51:53,135 –> 01:51:56,150
then I’m sitting on my next day. And then that’s the priority.

1819
01:51:57,030 –> 01:51:59,450
Where most people get confused is, they’re like, okay, I can’t change my family. Right?

1820
01:51:59,450 –> 01:52:01,670
So if you can’t change your family, if you can’t change your work family, then

1821
01:52:01,670 –> 01:52:02,170
what?

1822
01:52:06,215 –> 01:52:08,795
What happens? You hire a professional.

1823
01:52:10,614 –> 01:52:14,200
And this is called consulting or coaching. And what do pro athletes

1824
01:52:14,360 –> 01:52:18,200
do? They get coached and consulted. What do pro athletes do? They find

1825
01:52:18,200 –> 01:52:21,800
strength coaches and dietitians. What do pro athletes do? They freaking

1826
01:52:21,800 –> 01:52:24,494
win, or they get off the team.

1827
01:52:25,355 –> 01:52:28,875
Now here’s the parallel with the family. Sometimes you can’t have a

1828
01:52:28,875 –> 01:52:31,614
winning family member all the time,

1829
01:52:32,540 –> 01:52:36,080
but they’re gonna win some of the times. And if

1830
01:52:36,460 –> 01:52:39,820
you if you see them winning, if you recognize their wins, guess what

1831
01:52:39,820 –> 01:52:43,605
happens? They usually win more. And if

1832
01:52:43,605 –> 01:52:46,824
you find people to come in and help you with them

1833
01:52:46,965 –> 01:52:50,600
recognizing their wins, your family becomes

1834
01:52:50,600 –> 01:52:54,040
stronger. Your work family becomes

1835
01:52:54,040 –> 01:52:57,719
stronger the same way. The difference between your regular family and your work

1836
01:52:57,719 –> 01:53:01,364
family is if your work family isn’t working out, you could find a new

1837
01:53:01,364 –> 01:53:05,045
family member. Alright? And then and

1838
01:53:05,045 –> 01:53:08,830
if you’re you’re not a family, then you’re not really going to succeed for

1839
01:53:08,830 –> 01:53:12,670
long periods of time. And that all goes back into the book. How many

1840
01:53:12,670 –> 01:53:16,495
people can you really have in your life? I think it’s 3. I’m against what

1841
01:53:16,495 –> 01:53:20,255
Jocko and Leif say. I think it’s 3. Any more than

1842
01:53:20,255 –> 01:53:24,090
3, and I’m overwhelmed because I only have 3 parts

1843
01:53:24,090 –> 01:53:27,210
of my day, and I wanna touch it every day and say, hey. How are

1844
01:53:27,210 –> 01:53:30,969
you doing? You know? It’s just how I am. The psychological research

1845
01:53:30,969 –> 01:53:34,695
on this is clear. I mean, Dunbar’s number says anything past, I think it’s

1846
01:53:34,695 –> 01:53:38,215
9 people. We just can’t keep. Oh, no, it’s not 9 people.

1847
01:53:38,215 –> 01:53:41,770
Sorry. Anything past 150, like, different people, but we

1848
01:53:41,770 –> 01:53:45,130
can’t keep track. Yeah. We can’t keep track of those relationships. Yeah.

1849
01:53:45,610 –> 01:53:49,370
And that’s because fundamentally, I believe it’s because we were

1850
01:53:49,370 –> 01:53:53,105
created to be in community with each other, and

1851
01:53:53,105 –> 01:53:56,325
became community with, with, with the godhead.

1852
01:53:57,300 –> 01:54:00,740
But if you don’t wanna buy into any of that, that’s fine. It’s

1853
01:54:00,740 –> 01:54:04,260
fundamentally because our psychology is wired to reality in a

1854
01:54:04,260 –> 01:54:07,495
certain way. Let’s go there. And reality

1855
01:54:08,595 –> 01:54:12,435
cannot be, it cannot be repealed. You

1856
01:54:12,435 –> 01:54:15,395
can negotiate with it. You can maybe try to shift it a little bit, but

1857
01:54:15,395 –> 01:54:18,360
you can’t repeal it. You can’t. You can’t. Reality

1858
01:54:19,060 –> 01:54:22,820
always gets a vote. Well, I gotta tell you the story, though,

1859
01:54:22,820 –> 01:54:25,800
because chapter 11 really hit me hard. Yeah.

1860
01:54:26,235 –> 01:54:29,615
Referred to in a joint they’re

1861
01:54:30,075 –> 01:54:33,375
known for a lot of the really elite

1862
01:54:33,675 –> 01:54:37,500
teams. So I was there, and I was

1863
01:54:37,500 –> 01:54:40,940
trying to figure out how these people operated. Because I’ve

1864
01:54:40,940 –> 01:54:44,620
never been around so many people with inflated egos in

1865
01:54:44,620 –> 01:54:48,344
my life. Because they’ve all been told for a long period of time they’re the

1866
01:54:48,344 –> 01:54:51,864
best at what they do. Sure. So when I walked into the the

1867
01:54:51,864 –> 01:54:55,510
position, the person that was in the position before me was managing

1868
01:54:55,889 –> 01:54:59,730
everything. And, they expected me to be another manager. So they’re like,

1869
01:54:59,730 –> 01:55:03,205
hey. We know that you’re gonna come in here because you’re a Lieutenant

1870
01:55:03,205 –> 01:55:06,965
Colonel, and you have to do your Lieutenant Colonel job here. And I was like

1871
01:55:06,965 –> 01:55:10,565
no, I’m here to lead, you know I’m gonna lead you. And they were

1872
01:55:10,565 –> 01:55:14,210
like okay, some of them. But 2 of them,

1873
01:55:15,070 –> 01:55:18,830
2 of them confronted me. And how the confrontation happened is

1874
01:55:18,830 –> 01:55:22,125
when I walked into the job, there was another person that was hired to do

1875
01:55:22,125 –> 01:55:25,645
something similar to the job that I was hired to do. To be the

1876
01:55:25,645 –> 01:55:29,090
chief technology officer for Joint Special

1877
01:55:29,090 –> 01:55:32,790
Operations Command. And I won’t say his name, but he’s a good guy,

1878
01:55:32,930 –> 01:55:36,635
great guy. He just didn’t come from our environment. So he didn’t

1879
01:55:36,635 –> 01:55:39,855
know much about the military, especially about special operations,

1880
01:55:40,475 –> 01:55:44,239
and he had a corporate mindset that he was trying to

1881
01:55:44,239 –> 01:55:47,920
instill in our special operations community, which has been around

1882
01:55:47,920 –> 01:55:51,280
for a very long time. The chain of command came from the

1883
01:55:51,280 –> 01:55:54,644
military. Why? It’s 1,000 of years old, and it works.

1884
01:55:55,184 –> 01:55:58,864
So when he’s coming in and trying to insert himself in our chain of

1885
01:55:58,864 –> 01:56:02,690
command, it didn’t really work well. So we had some people that were splitting

1886
01:56:02,690 –> 01:56:06,370
off and going into his school of thought, and then some people that

1887
01:56:06,370 –> 01:56:10,055
were staying standard. And what I saw was 2 members,

1888
01:56:10,055 –> 01:56:13,195
specifically 2 members. And in the book, he talks

1889
01:56:13,415 –> 01:56:16,730
about, meeting with this chief executive who had this

1890
01:56:17,050 –> 01:56:20,890
technology problem, and the 2 scientists didn’t get along with

1891
01:56:20,890 –> 01:56:24,489
each other. Now I got along well with the CTO and so did my

1892
01:56:24,489 –> 01:56:28,085
boss, the CIO. So everyone got along just

1893
01:56:28,085 –> 01:56:31,865
well. It just didn’t work because we were trying to do the same thing,

1894
01:56:32,245 –> 01:56:35,840
and we weren’t talking. There was no communication there. And he didn’t want to talk

1895
01:56:35,840 –> 01:56:39,680
to me because he saw his level as being above

1896
01:56:39,680 –> 01:56:42,400
mine even though I did not talk, I did not answer to him, it did

1897
01:56:42,400 –> 01:56:45,695
not work for him. You know I didn’t have any authority

1898
01:56:46,395 –> 01:56:50,095
chained to him at all. So he came in and we just weren’t talking.

1899
01:56:50,555 –> 01:56:53,900
And in fact we would be in meetings and he would ask me my opinion,

1900
01:56:53,900 –> 01:56:56,620
he would stop me, and then he would keep talking. And I was like well

1901
01:56:56,620 –> 01:57:00,380
that’s very disrespectful. So like I didn’t make

1902
01:57:00,380 –> 01:57:03,755
up a point, but I had the same problem that he talked about in the

1903
01:57:03,755 –> 01:57:06,954
book. It’s like what are the options? Well you can get rid of 1 of

1904
01:57:06,954 –> 01:57:10,180
them, or the other one, or you can do what the book says and get

1905
01:57:10,180 –> 01:57:13,940
rid of both of them. And so what I did was I

1906
01:57:13,940 –> 01:57:17,655
started looking at who’s on my team and who’s on their

1907
01:57:17,655 –> 01:57:21,195
team, and that’s an us and them. Don’t do that. That’s dangerous.

1908
01:57:22,535 –> 01:57:26,060
But the reason why I did it was I was trying to help them work

1909
01:57:26,060 –> 01:57:29,820
for him or whatever they wanted to do. And

1910
01:57:29,820 –> 01:57:33,665
what I found was this really hard place. So I had 2

1911
01:57:33,665 –> 01:57:37,264
members. These 2 members wanted to work on his team, and

1912
01:57:37,264 –> 01:57:41,105
I fueled that the best I could. I created a building for

1913
01:57:41,105 –> 01:57:44,930
him. I said what do you need, I found resources, and I tried to

1914
01:57:44,930 –> 01:57:48,770
push that envelope over there to see what would happen. I didn’t go against

1915
01:57:48,770 –> 01:57:52,565
them, but what I did was fuel them to do

1916
01:57:52,565 –> 01:57:56,005
something they were passionate about. And I had another one that

1917
01:57:56,005 –> 01:57:59,500
was really trying to join us, and I was like that’s just not gonna

1918
01:57:59,500 –> 01:58:03,280
work. The military environment and the corporate environment are different,

1919
01:58:03,420 –> 01:58:07,115
and that’s okay. But I can’t adopt the corporate environment

1920
01:58:07,115 –> 01:58:10,955
in my military environment that works. We’re elite for a reason. And

1921
01:58:10,955 –> 01:58:14,690
it’s not because we have somebody else telling us how to be

1922
01:58:14,690 –> 01:58:18,290
more corporate. It’s because we are at this level

1923
01:58:18,290 –> 01:58:21,730
already, this top level, and we know how to we know how to do what

1924
01:58:21,730 –> 01:58:25,235
we need to do at the most effective levels. He’s just trying to bring in

1925
01:58:25,235 –> 01:58:28,375
technology, which is one of the things that I was hired to do. Mhmm.

1926
01:58:28,675 –> 01:58:32,270
So I took one member, pushed him off into that

1927
01:58:32,270 –> 01:58:35,810
team, and it didn’t work. Didn’t work at all.

1928
01:58:35,950 –> 01:58:39,325
So he came to me, he goes, hey, I’m trying. I’m I’m really trying to,

1929
01:58:39,405 –> 01:58:41,965
and he’s not he’s not listening to me. I’m like, well what else do you

1930
01:58:41,965 –> 01:58:45,585
wanna do? He goes, I wanna work at this other elite organization.

1931
01:58:46,659 –> 01:58:50,040
And 2 weeks later he was there. I let him, you know, I

1932
01:58:50,099 –> 01:58:53,540
promoted him into another job, and now he’s been promoted a couple more

1933
01:58:53,540 –> 01:58:57,305
times. The other person that wanted to join us together, I was like,

1934
01:58:57,305 –> 01:59:00,824
that’s just not gonna happen. And he’s like, well, I’m gonna quit. And I

1935
01:59:00,824 –> 01:59:04,190
said, bye. And he got a job

1936
01:59:04,330 –> 01:59:08,010
working another executive place somewhere else, and he was

1937
01:59:08,010 –> 01:59:10,810
happy for a while. And then that guy got mad at me. He’s like, he

1938
01:59:10,810 –> 01:59:14,485
shouldn’t have worked there. And I’m like, I just helped him do what he was

1939
01:59:14,485 –> 01:59:18,085
supposed to do and that’s what he’s doing. Now he’s back, he’s in another executive

1940
01:59:18,085 –> 01:59:21,810
role back in the military, and he’s doing that. But what I learned from

1941
01:59:21,810 –> 01:59:25,650
that is if you fuel people, if you find

1942
01:59:25,650 –> 01:59:29,429
out what they’re passionate about, and you let them do it, it works out well.

1943
01:59:29,595 –> 01:59:33,375
What happened with this guy, he claimed my wins

1944
01:59:33,515 –> 01:59:37,035
from my team who was still producing, like amazing

1945
01:59:37,035 –> 01:59:40,469
things. One of the things that Jocko talks about is all these people on different

1946
01:59:40,469 –> 01:59:44,250
radio nets, and they all have their own different radio nets and they’re all communicating

1947
01:59:44,310 –> 01:59:47,895
in their own little teams. And one of the things that I did was I

1948
01:59:47,895 –> 01:59:51,255
paired them all together, so that all these elite people could talk to each

1949
01:59:51,255 –> 01:59:54,900
other. I mean, what?

1950
01:59:54,900 –> 01:59:58,580
Who would’ve thought of that? You know? And so he claimed that, and he

1951
01:59:58,580 –> 02:00:02,295
claimed a lot of our other wins as his own. So that he would maintain,

1952
02:00:02,295 –> 02:00:05,655
I don’t know, some kind of he claimed our

1953
02:00:05,655 –> 02:00:09,390
wins. Really made my team mad. Really made my

1954
02:00:09,390 –> 02:00:13,070
team mad. But the people who were on my team, they got

1955
02:00:13,070 –> 02:00:16,670
promoted. They all got higher ranks. They for

1956
02:00:16,670 –> 02:00:20,465
life. Not for because I found out who they really

1957
02:00:20,465 –> 02:00:23,764
were and what they’re really passionate about and we started producing

1958
02:00:24,145 –> 02:00:27,880
major wins for an organization that is

1959
02:00:27,880 –> 02:00:31,560
at the tip of the spear. And

1960
02:00:31,560 –> 02:00:34,975
he claimed them all. So that was a real hard thing. He’s no longer in

1961
02:00:34,975 –> 02:00:38,255
there. He’s doing something else. He took a lot of the elite people that were

1962
02:00:38,255 –> 02:00:41,590
working for him on that team, and now they have a corporate

1963
02:00:41,730 –> 02:00:45,330
environment that they all work in. They’re all still friends or whatever. I don’t really

1964
02:00:45,330 –> 02:00:48,390
talk to him that much. It looks like they’re doing good on social media, but

1965
02:00:48,605 –> 02:00:52,205
doesn’t everyone post their best things on social media? Everyone posts their

1966
02:00:52,205 –> 02:00:55,725
highlight reels. Yeah. The highlights are the highlights are

1967
02:00:55,725 –> 02:00:59,570
great, but you know I just I didn’t wanna marry that

1968
02:00:59,570 –> 02:01:03,090
together because it didn’t work. Right. And recognizing that

1969
02:01:03,090 –> 02:01:05,865
is leadership, not management.

1970
02:01:07,365 –> 02:01:11,205
So the whole thing of being decisive in a

1971
02:01:11,205 –> 02:01:14,690
period of uncertainty, I was very decisive. I was

1972
02:01:14,690 –> 02:01:18,450
very meticulous, and we produced wins. And then I

1973
02:01:18,450 –> 02:01:22,150
let him claim the wins because he went out and mouthpiece them to everybody.

1974
02:01:22,915 –> 02:01:26,594
And people don’t do that. That’s the

1975
02:01:26,594 –> 02:01:30,135
biggest thing. Like, you wanna lose communication and be a problematic

1976
02:01:30,435 –> 02:01:34,050
organization? Start getting mad at people for not claiming

1977
02:01:34,050 –> 02:01:37,650
wins that, you know, that are for claiming your wins. Start getting

1978
02:01:37,650 –> 02:01:41,445
mad. That happens all the time. Yeah. And if you just let it

1979
02:01:41,445 –> 02:01:45,125
happen, your organization gets to a level that

1980
02:01:45,125 –> 02:01:48,949
you would have never expected it to be at, Because the people who are good

1981
02:01:48,949 –> 02:01:52,090
at talking usually aren’t good at doing. Right.

1982
02:01:53,429 –> 02:01:57,114
Say it again, the people that are good at talking usually aren’t

1983
02:01:57,114 –> 02:02:00,954
good at doing. Well, if you Let them talk. Well, the irony is that

1984
02:02:02,235 –> 02:02:05,760
yeah. The irony well, everybody needs marketing, right, apparently. Yeah.

1985
02:02:06,320 –> 02:02:08,980
You know, understanding

1986
02:02:10,480 –> 02:02:13,655
what people are good at, understanding their internal motivations,

1987
02:02:13,875 –> 02:02:15,815
understanding your own internal motivations.

1988
02:02:18,034 –> 02:02:21,574
The there’s an idea in leadership theory, and I don’t

1989
02:02:21,740 –> 02:02:25,260
expound too many leadership theories only because I think they

1990
02:02:25,260 –> 02:02:29,100
don’t work fundamentally, because, again, leadership is is

1991
02:02:29,100 –> 02:02:32,845
almost an individuated act now. However,

1992
02:02:32,845 –> 02:02:36,385
with that being said, there is a leadership theory

1993
02:02:36,765 –> 02:02:40,525
that says that leaders and members it’s called leader

1994
02:02:40,525 –> 02:02:44,290
member exchange theory. Leaders and members of teams exchange

1995
02:02:44,590 –> 02:02:48,270
content. Now I’ve always used that in a framing around emotional

1996
02:02:48,270 –> 02:02:51,735
intelligence, because, yes, we’ll exchange status or we’ll

1997
02:02:51,735 –> 02:02:55,495
exchange wins or we’ll exchange blame or we’ll exchange credit or

1998
02:02:55,495 –> 02:02:58,940
we’ll exchange feedback or we’ll we’ll exchange all of this stuff. We’ll

1999
02:02:58,940 –> 02:03:02,540
exchange hierarchy, money, whatever. But the

2000
02:03:02,540 –> 02:03:05,600
biggest thing that a leader and a member will exchange is emotional

2001
02:03:06,315 –> 02:03:09,675
and is emotions and emotional exchanges. Our

2002
02:03:09,675 –> 02:03:12,815
feelings are what we are going to exchange. Yes.

2003
02:03:13,675 –> 02:03:17,389
Feelings of anger, feelings of disappointment, feelings of happiness, feelings of sadness.

2004
02:03:17,389 –> 02:03:20,849
Those feelings are what we are going to exchange. And

2005
02:03:21,885 –> 02:03:25,565
until we all get replaced by the Terminator robots, which may be right around the

2006
02:03:25,565 –> 02:03:28,465
corner, until we all get replaced by them,

2007
02:03:29,780 –> 02:03:33,460
that’s the one thing that only human

2008
02:03:33,460 –> 02:03:36,815
beings can do well. And we just talked about the

2009
02:03:36,815 –> 02:03:40,595
Internet being this machine of engagement. Right? This revolutionary

2010
02:03:40,735 –> 02:03:44,255
machine of engagement. The things that were

2011
02:03:44,255 –> 02:03:47,890
prioritized, the exchanges that were prioritized pre Internet

2012
02:03:48,030 –> 02:03:49,170
are still valuable,

2013
02:03:52,270 –> 02:03:55,985
but their value has shifted around and where they show up

2014
02:03:55,985 –> 02:03:59,585
has shifted around and how they show up in people’s lives has

2015
02:03:59,585 –> 02:04:03,320
shifted around. 1 of the things we like to do on this podcast

2016
02:04:03,320 –> 02:04:07,000
is talk about solutions this year, and this leads us into this is a

2017
02:04:07,000 –> 02:04:10,825
segue into the solutions conversation. So you talked about the size of

2018
02:04:10,825 –> 02:04:13,545
the wins. You talked about knowing your people. You talked about a little bit about

2019
02:04:13,545 –> 02:04:17,065
blame and credit. I love how you said, you know, you could buy honesty, but

2020
02:04:17,065 –> 02:04:20,680
you can’t, you can’t buy honesty, but you could build it. I love that. Wrote

2021
02:04:20,680 –> 02:04:21,900
that down. That’s brilliant.

2022
02:04:25,235 –> 02:04:29,075
Obviously, there’s applications from the military to the civilian life, military to to

2023
02:04:29,075 –> 02:04:32,915
all these other different places, military’s a bureaucracy, just like any other bureaucracy. They’re gonna

2024
02:04:32,915 –> 02:04:36,640
pull something out of there. One of the things that I

2025
02:04:36,640 –> 02:04:40,159
look at with, with extreme ownership and, and I look at

2026
02:04:40,159 –> 02:04:43,460
it again as through my lens as a divorce and family mediator,

2027
02:04:44,455 –> 02:04:47,255
I would sit across the table for 2 people who used to love each other

2028
02:04:47,255 –> 02:04:50,615
and now don’t. Yep. And I would watch a lot of a lack of

2029
02:04:50,615 –> 02:04:54,010
accountability, a lack of ownership going on at that table, whether

2030
02:04:54,010 –> 02:04:57,550
accidental or on purpose, whether influenced by other folks or not.

2031
02:04:58,650 –> 02:05:02,225
If you wanna build leaders for to to solve

2032
02:05:02,225 –> 02:05:06,065
tomorrow’s problems, heck, if you wanna build

2033
02:05:06,065 –> 02:05:09,824
leaders to solve some of today’s problems, let’s focus on tomorrow’s problems, the problems we

2034
02:05:09,824 –> 02:05:13,560
haven’t quite gotten to yet. If you want to build leaders to solve those problems,

2035
02:05:13,560 –> 02:05:16,380
that act begins at

2036
02:05:17,000 –> 02:05:20,594
home. Mhmm. And I’ll go

2037
02:05:20,594 –> 02:05:23,715
even deeper. I said this recently in a shorts episode that you should go back

2038
02:05:23,715 –> 02:05:27,370
and listen to episode number 120. Sort of my

2039
02:05:27,370 –> 02:05:30,890
sharpest shorts episode yet. But I said, you

2040
02:05:30,890 –> 02:05:34,430
know, paraphrasing from Jesus,

2041
02:05:34,815 –> 02:05:38,335
telling his disciples that the harvest is much, but the laborers are

2042
02:05:38,335 –> 02:05:41,475
few. Well, that’s directed towards 12

2043
02:05:42,090 –> 02:05:45,530
disciples. Mhmm. Yes, sir. All of whom were

2044
02:05:45,530 –> 02:05:49,310
men. Yes, sir. And so to the men

2045
02:05:49,450 –> 02:05:53,155
listening to my podcast, whether you are,

2046
02:05:53,935 –> 02:05:57,775
middle aged men, older retired men, or

2047
02:05:57,775 –> 02:06:01,250
young men who have stumbled across this, this is for

2048
02:06:02,350 –> 02:06:06,110
you. Men have to take ownership of every single thing in their sphere

2049
02:06:06,110 –> 02:06:09,795
of influence. That means getting up off the couch. That

2050
02:06:09,795 –> 02:06:13,255
means not relying on playing video games for your entertainment

2051
02:06:13,315 –> 02:06:16,935
or pornography for your sexual release. It means

2052
02:06:17,780 –> 02:06:21,540
not looking at social media so much. It means making

2053
02:06:21,540 –> 02:06:24,980
a plan. It means prioritizing and executing. It means taking

2054
02:06:24,980 –> 02:06:28,815
ownership of making your bed and cleaning your room.

2055
02:06:28,815 –> 02:06:32,114
Let’s start with that. You don’t have to go out and get a job immediately,

2056
02:06:32,175 –> 02:06:35,215
but maybe taking ownership of the idea that it might be a good idea to

2057
02:06:35,215 –> 02:06:38,760
go get a job. You’re already hardwired to do that. And the

2058
02:06:38,760 –> 02:06:42,440
ladies who are listening, and there are many women who listen to my podcast, who

2059
02:06:42,440 –> 02:06:44,815
do you wanna be with? Do you want to be with a man who actually

2060
02:06:44,815 –> 02:06:48,495
takes ownership of every single aspect of his life and his fear of influence as

2061
02:06:48,495 –> 02:06:52,175
much as he possibly can or do you want to be with? The

2062
02:06:52,175 –> 02:06:55,760
opposite Because if he’s taking ownership of everything in his sphere of

2063
02:06:55,760 –> 02:06:59,440
influence, then that allows you to take ownership of everything in your sphere of

2064
02:06:59,440 –> 02:07:03,074
influence. And now those 2 can come together, and now

2065
02:07:03,074 –> 02:07:06,618
we can have a real dynamite family and a dynamite

2066
02:07:06,618 –> 02:07:10,163
team. And if we want to solve the problems of

2067
02:07:10,163 –> 02:07:13,810
the future, leadership starts at home. And then you

2068
02:07:13,810 –> 02:07:17,570
role model that for your children. And I’m saying this specifically because Atlas has

2069
02:07:17,570 –> 02:07:19,830
written books for children just like Jocko has,

2070
02:07:21,010 –> 02:07:24,695
and children are

2071
02:07:24,915 –> 02:07:28,594
the children are the the the the

2072
02:07:28,594 –> 02:07:32,340
fathers of the future men. Right? And they’re the fathers of the future

2073
02:07:32,340 –> 02:07:36,100
daughters. Right? That are coming down the pike. Do you want to

2074
02:07:36,100 –> 02:07:39,700
build intergenerational wealth? There’s a lot of talk about building intergenerational wealth.

2075
02:07:39,700 –> 02:07:43,465
Robert Kurosaki and many others talk about this idea.

2076
02:07:45,125 –> 02:07:48,730
Well, generational wealth is more than just money. Money

2077
02:07:48,730 –> 02:07:52,510
comes and money goes. Shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in 3 generations

2078
02:07:52,570 –> 02:07:55,790
used to be the idea in America. And by the way, it still is.

2079
02:07:56,695 –> 02:08:00,534
What lasts longer than money? Well, the legacy that you give that is

2080
02:08:00,534 –> 02:08:04,235
a spiritual legacy, the legacy of a 2 parent home,

2081
02:08:04,360 –> 02:08:08,039
the legacy of appropriate role modeling of ownership. We may not have had

2082
02:08:08,039 –> 02:08:11,800
much money, but we stayed married and we took ownership of everything in our

2083
02:08:11,800 –> 02:08:15,615
sphere of influence. And then the child can go off

2084
02:08:15,615 –> 02:08:19,455
and become the next thing because there’s

2085
02:08:19,455 –> 02:08:22,595
a granite underneath there that cannot be broken.

2086
02:08:24,500 –> 02:08:26,120
Ownership always has its drawbacks,

2087
02:08:28,100 –> 02:08:31,000
but ownership also has its privileges.

2088
02:08:32,435 –> 02:08:36,035
And when Jocko and Leaf talk about ownership, they of course use

2089
02:08:36,035 –> 02:08:39,655
the adjective extreme next to it.

2090
02:08:39,810 –> 02:08:43,650
And, I usually pair this book with the

2091
02:08:43,650 –> 02:08:46,390
Oz Principle, which is another great book about accountability,

2092
02:08:47,445 –> 02:08:50,744
because that one gets into the weeds a little bit with how you scale accountability

2093
02:08:50,965 –> 02:08:54,724
across massive organizations and massive bureaucracies. And that’s another book

2094
02:08:54,724 –> 02:08:58,390
where I read the first literally, the first ten pages of it, and it

2095
02:08:58,390 –> 02:09:02,150
was everything that I ever heard from any of clients

2096
02:09:02,150 –> 02:09:05,864
that I’d had in my leadership consultancy giving me feedback about

2097
02:09:05,864 –> 02:09:09,545
their problems with accountability, with other people not taking accountability. It was

2098
02:09:09,545 –> 02:09:13,220
literally everything I complained I’d ever read, and I thought who the heck had guts

2099
02:09:13,220 –> 02:09:16,900
to write this down and publish it. And so if you’re gonna get extreme

2100
02:09:16,900 –> 02:09:20,554
ownership, go pick up the Oz principle. It’s written on the conceit of The Wizard

2101
02:09:20,554 –> 02:09:23,994
of Oz. I recommend that book as well. 2 great books you can pair

2102
02:09:23,994 –> 02:09:27,730
together. I talk about the nuts and bolts of ownership and the nuts and

2103
02:09:27,730 –> 02:09:30,390
bolts of accountability and then go off and be accountable.

2104
02:09:31,570 –> 02:09:35,030
And the privileges of ownership, the privileges of accountability

2105
02:09:35,715 –> 02:09:37,735
are often not talked about.

2106
02:09:39,875 –> 02:09:43,440
Because at the moment that we are at right now in our culture, we talk

2107
02:09:43,440 –> 02:09:47,120
a lot about rights, but not responsibilities. We talk a lot

2108
02:09:47,120 –> 02:09:50,020
about wanting privileges, but not sacrifices.

2109
02:09:51,875 –> 02:09:55,715
The idea that comes from Atlas, the idea that comes from Jocko and from

2110
02:09:55,715 –> 02:09:59,555
all of the other folks that have come onto my podcast, that

2111
02:09:59,555 –> 02:10:02,700
come onto this show and have talked about their past experiences,

2112
02:10:04,360 –> 02:10:07,900
particularly military based experiences come from a perspective of sacrifice.

2113
02:10:08,575 –> 02:10:12,175
You sacrifice before you get the privileges. You

2114
02:10:12,175 –> 02:10:15,855
sacrifice the things that you

2115
02:10:15,855 –> 02:10:19,540
want today for a better future tomorrow inside of your

2116
02:10:19,540 –> 02:10:23,380
sphere of influence. And sacrifice doesn’t always look like taking

2117
02:10:23,380 –> 02:10:27,195
a bullet. Sometimes sacrifice looks like not

2118
02:10:27,195 –> 02:10:30,934
letting your kid have a cell phone at 10 and

2119
02:10:31,514 –> 02:10:35,180
just committing to picking them up every day so they’re not on

2120
02:10:35,180 –> 02:10:38,240
social media. And so you have a conversation with them.

2121
02:10:38,940 –> 02:10:42,720
Sometimes sacrifice looks like not having television in your house

2122
02:10:43,245 –> 02:10:47,005
on 247 and maybe just having music on in the

2123
02:10:47,005 –> 02:10:50,764
background and talking to each other to fill the

2124
02:10:50,764 –> 02:10:54,010
silence. Sometimes sacrifice looks like

2125
02:10:54,550 –> 02:10:58,310
not sacrificing mealtimes with

2126
02:10:58,310 –> 02:11:02,035
your family because the boss who isn’t going to be there at your

2127
02:11:02,035 –> 02:11:05,815
funeral wants a little bit extra out of you.

2128
02:11:07,250 –> 02:11:10,850
Sacrifice has to come before privilege and

2129
02:11:10,850 –> 02:11:14,610
ownership has its privileges. The sacrifice always

2130
02:11:14,610 –> 02:11:18,315
comes first. Those are some of the lessons I think that we could take

2131
02:11:18,315 –> 02:11:22,155
from extreme ownership, but I’m going to let Atlas have the last

2132
02:11:22,155 –> 02:11:25,860
word on this. As we round the corner, How

2133
02:11:25,860 –> 02:11:29,060
can civilians apply these principles? I mean, we’ve kind of been talking about this this

2134
02:11:29,060 –> 02:11:32,900
entire time, but what’s a good summation for us as we round the

2135
02:11:32,900 –> 02:11:35,405
corner? And by the way, thank you for coming on the show today. This has

2136
02:11:35,405 –> 02:11:39,164
been an awesome conversation. For sure. And, I look forward to

2137
02:11:39,164 –> 02:11:42,304
maybe potentially having you back on in the future. I love it.

2138
02:11:42,820 –> 02:11:46,500
Yeah. So, how can civilians apply extreme

2139
02:11:46,500 –> 02:11:50,114
ownership? I think most civilians, I think most people are

2140
02:11:50,114 –> 02:11:53,335
renting their lives, and they look at their lives as rentals.

2141
02:11:54,114 –> 02:11:57,840
And whenever you’re in real estate, you, when

2142
02:11:57,840 –> 02:12:01,680
you rent anything, you realize that, a

2143
02:12:01,680 –> 02:12:05,280
rental isn’t taken care of as much as, an

2144
02:12:05,280 –> 02:12:08,475
owned house is. So if you own the house, your

2145
02:12:08,695 –> 02:12:12,535
yard’s taken care of. Your house is well painted. You know, things are

2146
02:12:12,535 –> 02:12:15,895
cared for a little bit more. When you’re renting something, you treat it like a

2147
02:12:15,895 –> 02:12:19,420
rental. And I think a lot of people’s lives, they’re

2148
02:12:19,420 –> 02:12:23,180
treating their their lives as a rental. They’re driving it as fast as they

2149
02:12:23,180 –> 02:12:26,585
can. They’re showing it off to their friends on social media.

2150
02:12:26,965 –> 02:12:30,565
They’re being as loud as possible with the things that they

2151
02:12:30,565 –> 02:12:34,390
think that they can tell people that are believable. When in

2152
02:12:34,390 –> 02:12:38,150
reality, it’s it’s a not not true inside

2153
02:12:38,150 –> 02:12:41,735
them. You know, whatever they’re showing to people is is

2154
02:12:41,735 –> 02:12:45,575
not truly who they are. They’re fake, and people

2155
02:12:45,575 –> 02:12:49,255
can spot a fake. You’ve stated this earlier in the

2156
02:12:49,255 –> 02:12:52,760
show. It’s easy it’s easy for people to spot a

2157
02:12:52,760 –> 02:12:56,360
fake. The whole phrase is fake it until you make

2158
02:12:56,360 –> 02:12:59,800
it. That is not something I

2159
02:12:59,800 –> 02:13:03,385
subscribe to. I think you should talk about it until you make

2160
02:13:03,385 –> 02:13:06,985
it. I think you should highlight it until you make it,

2161
02:13:06,985 –> 02:13:10,445
but faking it only brings in other fake people.

2162
02:13:11,130 –> 02:13:14,970
So if you take that aside and you look at who you really want

2163
02:13:14,970 –> 02:13:18,730
to be, own it. Don’t rent it. When

2164
02:13:18,730 –> 02:13:22,344
you own it, your yard’s gonna be tighter. Meaning you’re gonna go to the

2165
02:13:22,344 –> 02:13:26,025
gym. Your your thoughts inside your your

2166
02:13:26,025 –> 02:13:29,630
your walls, this brain thing that you have in your head, they’re going to be

2167
02:13:29,630 –> 02:13:33,469
freshly painted. They’re not going to be marred up with negativity. You’re

2168
02:13:33,469 –> 02:13:37,205
going to start taking care of the, the, the neighbors trash

2169
02:13:37,205 –> 02:13:40,885
whenever it rolls into your yard, and you’re gonna talk to your neighbor

2170
02:13:40,885 –> 02:13:44,380
instead of just complaining about them. The things

2171
02:13:44,380 –> 02:13:48,220
that come with ownership are something that we control, but

2172
02:13:48,220 –> 02:13:52,060
we rarely do nowadays because we are so afraid to talk to other

2173
02:13:52,060 –> 02:13:55,805
people, especially those that are closest to us and the ones

2174
02:13:55,805 –> 02:13:59,565
that impact our lives. So I’d say take ownership, stop

2175
02:13:59,565 –> 02:14:03,120
renting your life, start thinking about things as you as

2176
02:14:03,120 –> 02:14:06,500
you should instead of as people tell you you should.

2177
02:14:08,880 –> 02:14:12,315
I know you’ve got books. I know you’ve got a website. Go

2178
02:14:12,315 –> 02:14:15,755
ahead. Talk talk with folks about where they can get ahold of you, where they

2179
02:14:15,755 –> 02:14:19,115
can see you Yeah. Where they can get you. Where the where where can we

2180
02:14:19,195 –> 02:14:22,829
where do we spot that TEDx conversation that you Yeah. Not conversation. I’m

2181
02:14:22,829 –> 02:14:25,869
sorry. Speech that you, that you dropped. Where can we find you? Where are all

2182
02:14:25,869 –> 02:14:29,489
the places we could find Atlas Altman? Yeah. Google

2183
02:14:29,710 –> 02:14:33,195
how elite leaders win. You’ll find me on on a TED

2184
02:14:33,195 –> 02:14:36,955
stage talking about, my time with the president and and a

2185
02:14:36,955 –> 02:14:40,800
lot of general officers, the highest ranking people in the military. And

2186
02:14:40,800 –> 02:14:44,320
I got I got very blessed and fortunate to be placed in the

2187
02:14:44,320 –> 02:14:47,975
places that I was at. But it wasn’t me. It was the

2188
02:14:47,975 –> 02:14:51,335
teams that I got to, you know, find out about the people that were in

2189
02:14:51,335 –> 02:14:55,095
my life. You know, Jesus likes to say, we be a fisher of men.

2190
02:14:55,095 –> 02:14:58,490
And I took that to heart. You know, I like to figure out what people

2191
02:14:58,490 –> 02:15:02,250
really want to do and then fuel that. And I find great success

2192
02:15:02,250 –> 02:15:06,034
whenever you do that. So, the books I have,

2193
02:15:06,515 –> 02:15:09,815
the rule of 3 is number 1 in a lot of categories.

2194
02:15:10,195 –> 02:15:13,960
It talks about a lot of the stories that I learned, from

2195
02:15:13,960 –> 02:15:17,260
from these extreme leaders and some of my personal stories were,

2196
02:15:18,040 –> 02:15:20,925
where I’m at. Shows, leaders dash kit.com/shows

2197
02:15:22,345 –> 02:15:25,465
is all the podcasts that I’ve ever been on. I think there’s like 40 or

2198
02:15:25,465 –> 02:15:28,285
some odd shows that are posted out there if you wanna hear more of me.

2199
02:15:28,540 –> 02:15:32,380
I don’t have a podcast yet, but I’m gonna do a 100 podcasts before I

2200
02:15:32,380 –> 02:15:36,195
even think about it because I’m finding great things. Like, I found a

2201
02:15:36,275 –> 02:15:40,114
I wrote down 3 pages of notes from the first time we talked. Just just

2202
02:15:40,114 –> 02:15:42,855
getting a feel for the the guest is is something that

2203
02:15:43,530 –> 02:15:47,290
3, 4, 4 of the podcast shows that I’ve been on has has done.

2204
02:15:47,290 –> 02:15:50,969
And those shows are always amazing. And, you know, they they’re award

2205
02:15:50,969 –> 02:15:54,605
winning for a reason. So, and then, you know, I have a Fox

2206
02:15:54,605 –> 02:15:58,045
leadership series for kids, and that talks about the

2207
02:15:58,045 –> 02:16:01,690
basics of life as as they own themselves as a

2208
02:16:01,690 –> 02:16:05,450
leader and allows the parents to connect with their kids at bedtime

2209
02:16:05,450 –> 02:16:09,050
usually. And then it asks a series of questions, allowing the

2210
02:16:09,050 –> 02:16:12,614
parent to share that part of the day where they’re leading something that they don’t

2211
02:16:12,614 –> 02:16:16,075
normally share with their kids. So it’s a deep connection

2212
02:16:16,650 –> 02:16:20,490
that forms between the parent and child, and then the child starts to look at

2213
02:16:20,490 –> 02:16:24,330
the parent more as a leader, rather than someone that provides them everything

2214
02:16:24,330 –> 02:16:27,335
that they ever wanted. And interestingly enough,

2215
02:16:28,035 –> 02:16:31,715
you know, the kids not having the cell phone was a Yale study that was

2216
02:16:31,715 –> 02:16:35,290
published last November. And they said that kids lead to happier

2217
02:16:35,290 –> 02:16:38,430
lives if they aren’t given a smartphone,

2218
02:16:39,049 –> 02:16:42,635
until later in life. And you know why that is, is because all the

2219
02:16:42,635 –> 02:16:45,934
negativity that gets pushed out and and the positive

2220
02:16:45,995 –> 02:16:49,750
vibes. So it’s a weird mixture for kids to try to figure out that

2221
02:16:49,910 –> 02:16:53,590
chaos that we all figure out later in life or as you and I did.

2222
02:16:53,590 –> 02:16:57,430
We grew up with it and it started to become really noisy. Yeah. World’s so

2223
02:16:57,430 –> 02:17:00,785
noisy right now. So that’s your thanks for letting me plug my

2224
02:17:00,785 –> 02:17:04,545
stuff. Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. No. It was

2225
02:17:04,545 –> 02:17:08,270
it was it was great to to have you on. And, of course,

2226
02:17:08,270 –> 02:17:11,870
we are going to have links in the show notes to all of the places

2227
02:17:11,870 –> 02:17:15,330
where you could find Atlas Altman, all the places where you could find

2228
02:17:15,895 –> 02:17:19,655
information about his books, his TED talk, his, his

2229
02:17:19,655 –> 02:17:23,334
leadership courses, his consultancy, everything that he’s ever done.

2230
02:17:23,334 –> 02:17:26,790
We’re gonna have links to all of that to the show notes below the podcast

2231
02:17:26,790 –> 02:17:30,091
player of the show you’re listening to, right now.

2232
02:17:31,865 –> 02:17:35,305
If you would like to stay on the path with us here at leadership

2233
02:17:35,305 –> 02:17:38,985
toolbox, we have, we have a few things that you may wanna

2234
02:17:38,985 –> 02:17:42,210
consider. We’re not as good as Atlas, but we like we try

2235
02:17:42,830 –> 02:17:46,591
to kinda worm our way in there. You know? We, of course,

2236
02:17:46,591 –> 02:17:50,210
would recommend that you subscribe and like this podcast. Recommend

2237
02:17:50,305 –> 02:17:53,904
that you tell every single leader that you know that the leadership lessons from the

2238
02:17:53,904 –> 02:17:57,584
great books podcast exists. Of course, we love it if you go on

2239
02:17:57,584 –> 02:18:01,109
Apple, Spotify, drop us 5 stars,

2240
02:18:01,109 –> 02:18:04,950
subscribe, pass it around your email list. Of course, word-of-mouth is

2241
02:18:04,950 –> 02:18:07,689
how this show grows, so tell all your friends.

2242
02:18:09,825 –> 02:18:13,665
If you have people who, you know, won’t listen to a podcast or

2243
02:18:13,665 –> 02:18:16,930
they won’t attend a training, how do you get a leadership tools?

2244
02:18:17,549 –> 02:18:21,068
Well, we have this little book that was released back in,

2245
02:18:21,469 –> 02:18:25,055
April of 20 22 called

2246
02:18:25,055 –> 02:18:28,815
12 rules for leaders, the foundation of attentional leadership. I

2247
02:18:28,815 –> 02:18:32,650
co wrote that with my coauthor Bradley Madigan. And in it are

2248
02:18:32,650 –> 02:18:36,490
the 12 rules, the 12 areas we think that leaders need to know the

2249
02:18:36,490 –> 02:18:39,851
most about. And we’ve covered a lot of them today, including ownership and

2250
02:18:39,851 –> 02:18:43,674
accountability, avoiding the blame credit trap, and many, many

2251
02:18:43,674 –> 02:18:47,354
other spots. So go pick that up everywhere where

2252
02:18:47,354 –> 02:18:51,193
you can find books, most notably Amazon, of course.

2253
02:18:51,193 –> 02:18:55,010
And we have it in Kindle format and, of course, paperback. By the

2254
02:18:55,010 –> 02:18:58,610
way, I have been promising an audiobook for years now. I should

2255
02:18:58,610 –> 02:19:02,325
probably get on that. Oh, by

2256
02:19:02,325 –> 02:19:05,924
the way, there’s another little red book we have that was little

2257
02:19:05,924 –> 02:19:09,489
red at the time of its release back in 2018. But

2258
02:19:09,489 –> 02:19:12,370
people started picking it up a little bit over COVID, and I’d recommend that you

2259
02:19:12,370 –> 02:19:16,129
pick it up as well. It’s called my boss doesn’t care. 100 essays

2260
02:19:16,129 –> 02:19:19,834
on disrupting your workplace by disrupting your boss. There’s a nice snazzy red cover

2261
02:19:19,834 –> 02:19:23,434
with white lettering on it. I recommend you go pick that up if you’re finally

2262
02:19:23,434 –> 02:19:26,870
ready to disrupt your boss and disrupt your workplace, but you don’t

2263
02:19:27,330 –> 02:19:31,090
quite know which form of disruption to prioritize and

2264
02:19:31,090 –> 02:19:34,068
to execute on. If you were having some uncertainty

2265
02:19:34,805 –> 02:19:38,645
and a lack of decisiveness, that book is a guide because you’re going

2266
02:19:38,645 –> 02:19:42,459
to need a map. You’re going to need something to help you. And then

2267
02:19:42,459 –> 02:19:46,221
finally, we have a YouTube channel. You’re gonna hear the audio of this

2268
02:19:46,221 –> 02:19:49,820
podcast on their YouTube channel. If you’re listening to it on YouTube, you should

2269
02:19:49,820 –> 02:19:53,585
subscribe to the Leadership Toolbox YouTube channel. We are

2270
02:19:53,585 –> 02:19:57,104
ticking up our subscriber numbers as we ingest more of

2271
02:19:57,104 –> 02:20:00,460
this podcast content into those

2272
02:20:00,460 –> 02:20:04,300
algorithms that I often talk about. I haven’t I think that’s the

2273
02:20:04,300 –> 02:20:07,805
first time I mentioned algorithms actually on this show. But, you should,

2274
02:20:08,505 –> 02:20:12,265
you should listen and subscribe to, the, the the

2275
02:20:12,265 –> 02:20:15,860
leadership lessons from the great books podcast on YouTube. And of

2276
02:20:15,860 –> 02:20:19,400
course watch the videos We are we have a backlog

2277
02:20:19,460 –> 02:20:23,300
now of almost 50 videos. Don’t worry We’re getting videos up as

2278
02:20:23,300 –> 02:20:27,035
quickly as we possibly can. And eventually, you’ll see the video version of this

2279
02:20:27,035 –> 02:20:30,795
podcast as well with Atlas Altman with all the same show notes,

2280
02:20:30,795 –> 02:20:34,440
all the same information. But we are audio first. We’re

2281
02:20:34,440 –> 02:20:38,200
partisans for audio. And don’t worry, Google. We see

2282
02:20:38,200 –> 02:20:41,795
you operating over there. You and your little AI. We

2283
02:20:42,976 –> 02:20:46,436
got you covered. With that,

2284
02:20:46,790 –> 02:20:50,630
I’d like to thank once again, Atlas Altman for coming on our podcast and joining

2285
02:20:50,630 –> 02:20:54,250
us today. And as usual,

2286
02:20:54,470 –> 02:20:58,176
as I always say, we’re out.