Leadership Lessons From The Great Books – Night by Elie Wiesel w/Ryan J. Stout and Libby Unger

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Because understanding great literature is better than trying to read and

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understand yet another business book, on the Leadership Lessons from the Great

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Books podcast, we commit to reading, dissecting, and analyzing the

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great books of the Writers canon. You know those

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books from Jane Austen to Shakespeare and everything else in

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between that you might have fallen asleep trying to read in high

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school. We do this for our listeners, the owner, the

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entrepreneur, the manager, or the civic leader who doesn’t have the time

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to read, dissect, analyze, and leverage insights from

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literature to execute leadership best practices in

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the confusing and chaotic postmodern world we all now

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inhabit. Welcome to the rescuing of Writers civilization

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at the intersection of literature and leadership.

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Welcome to the Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast.

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Hello. My name is Jesan Sorrells, and this is the

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Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast, episode

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number 100 and n.

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With our book today, a book that is widely considered

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to be one of the cornerstones of

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Podcast literature. It describes in lyrical

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detail, as Man’s Search for Turning by Viktor Frankl did, which we

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covered on episode number 68 with Richard Messing, the

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ways in which individuals, are gradually and

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imperceptibly robbed of their humanity by

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the state. During this month, we’ve

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addressed on the podcast the idea of where a leader’s moral

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compass emanates from. And this book answers to other

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questions, which actually probably come before that

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question, and they are of equal importance.

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What does a leader do to preserve his or her moral compass when

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morality and character are effectively placed on the back

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burner? And number 2, how can a leader rebuild a

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destroyed moral center? The hard

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earned lessons from the apocalyptic wars of the 20th century

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that ended with atomic finality at Hiroshima and

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Nagasaki seem to be losing their power to emotionally

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scare us now in the early 21st century.

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From Russia invading the Ukraine to China, saber rattling in the Writers

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Pacific, the drums are beating gradually for an escalation

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to worldwide warfare again, the, quote,

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unquote, health of the state, according to the progressive socialist author

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Randolph Fourth back in the day. The people,

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the policymakers, pundits, politicians, and even the public tastemakers

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pounding these war drums seem inured to the lessons laid

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out so clearly in this book that we are going to cover today.

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They are historically and generationally removed far enough from the visceral

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nature of the horrors of the Holocaust, the rape of Nanking,

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and the Ukrainian oligomer. Their

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insistence that humanity stroll yet

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again down the well worn path that leads eventually to

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the clearing where these horrors lie. In light of this

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book, reads like naive ignorance at best

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and craven self serving manipulation at

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worst. And this is why we need books like this and

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conversations like the one we’re going to have today in order to pull

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all this apart and put it in its appropriate context.

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Today, we will be exploring the clearing at the end of the

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path, the weakness of a nihilistic worldview when

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genuine totalizing evil manifests itself in the world, and the

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utter banality of evil as we

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cover night by Eli

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Liesel. Leaders, beware of

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tyrants. Unlike most people you know, they tend

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to ruthlessly heap their promises.

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And today in this journey, we will

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be joined by 2 folks. You’re going to hear 2 voices on the

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podcast today. And of course, if you’re watching the video, you’re going to

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see 2 folks on the video. And it’ll be kind of a little bit of

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a panel discussion today. So we’re joined by,

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our previous guest cohosts, Libby Unger

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and Ryan j Stout. How are you doing

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Ryan and Libby? How’s it going? Great. Best day of my

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life.

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Best day of your life to be talking about a truly

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How are you, Jesan? Impactful book. How am I? Well,

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it’s it’s, it’s the merry month of June. Right? So we’re

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gonna we’re gonna get into, we’re gonna get into tonight. We’re gonna get into Eli

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Weisel. I had not read this book. I don’t know

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how I had, like, missed it, in all my time.

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But it’s one of those books that fourth of like your vegetables. Everybody tells you

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that it’s good to read or that you should read it. And of course it’s

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part of a much larger biography of Eli and his experiences in

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the concentration camps, during world war 2 but it was a

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book that I had not up until this point read and the version that I

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have has an orper winfrey quote on the cover of it, and I try to

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take usually, I take the Jonathan Franzen approach to an Oprah Winfrey quote on the

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cover of her book, and I I run away from it.

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But this book,

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just like, east of Eden, will be

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fine with or without Oprah. You know? Doesn’t need Oprah to make

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it any better. So

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so yeah, it was, it was a very impactful book for me, and I hope

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that it will be impactful for us today as we, as

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we talk about it and pull it apart. And I’m gonna find out from you

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all what you all thought of it as well.

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So we’re gonna open from night,

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and we’re gonna read directly from the book today. I don’t think Eli would actually

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object to us reading directly from the book. Book matter of fact, think you would

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probably want us to. So we’re gonna start early in

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night here

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and talk about Moishe the Beatle.

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One day as I was about to enter the synagogue, I saw Moshe the

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Beatle sitting on a beach on a bench near the entrance.

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He told me what had happened to him and his companions. The train with

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the deportees had crossed the Hungarian border. And once in Polish

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territory had been taken over by the Gestapo, The train had

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stopped. The Jews were ordered to get off and onto the waiting trucks. The trucks

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headed toward a forest. There, everybody was ordered to

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get out. They were forced to dig huge trenches. When they had finished

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their work, the men from the gestapo began theirs.

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Without passion or haste, they shot their prisoners, who were forced to approach the

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trench 1 by 1 and offer their necks. Infants were tossed into the

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air and used as targets for the machine guns. This took place in the

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Galician fourth near Kolemy. How had he,

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Moishe the beetle, been able to escape? By a miracle.

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He was wounded in the leg and left for dead.

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Day after day, night after night, he went from one Jewish house to the next

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telling his story and that of Malka, the young girl who lay dying for 3

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essays, and that of Toby, the tailor who begged to die before his sons were

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killed. Moshe was not the same. The joy in

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his eyes was gone. He no longer sang. He no longer mentioned either

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god or Kabbalah. He spoke only of what he had seen.

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But people not only refused to believe his tales, they refused to

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listen. Some even insinuated that he only wanted their pity that he

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was imagining things. Others flatly said that he had gone

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mad. As for Moisha, he wept and pleaded,

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Jews, listen to me that’s all I ask of you no money, no Libby, just

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listen to me. He kept shouting in synagogue between the prayer at dusk

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and the evening prayer. Even I did not

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believe him. I often sat with him, after services and listened to his

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tales, turning Tom understand his grief, but all I felt was pity.

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They think I’m mad, he whispered, and tears like drops of wax flowed from his

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eyes. Once I asked him the question, why do you

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want people to believe you so much? In your place I would not care whether

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they believed me or not. He closed his eyes as if

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to escape time. You don’t understand, he said in despair.

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You cannot understand. I was saved miraculously. I succeeded in coming

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back. Where did I get my strength? I wanted to return

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to Sighet to describe to you my death, so that you might ready yourselves while

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there were still time life. I no longer care to live. I

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am alone. But I wanted to come back to warn you.

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Only no one is listening to me.

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This was towards the end of 1942.

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Thereafter, life seemed normal again. London radio, which we Jesan to every

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evening, announced encouraging news, the daily bombing of Germany and

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Stalingrad, the operation of the Jesan front. And so we, the Jews of

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Cygnet, waited for better days that were surely soon to come.

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I continue to devote myself to my studies, Tom turning the day, and kabbalah

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at night. My father took care of his business and the community. My grandfather came

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to spend Rosh Hashanah with us so as to attend the services of the celebrated

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Rebbe of borscht. My mother was beginning to think it was high time to

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find an appropriate match for Hilda thus past

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the year 1943.

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Eleazar Eli Weisel, born September 30, 1928,

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died July 2nd 2016, was a Romanian

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born American writer, professor, political activist, Nobel laureate,

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and podcast survivor.

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Wiesel’s father, Shlomo, instilled a strong sense of humanism in his

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son, encouraging him to learn Hebrew and to read literature, whereas his

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mother encouraged him to study the Torah. Vaisel said his father

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represented reason, while his mother Sarah promoted faith.

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Vaisel had 3 siblings, older sisters, Beatrice and Hilda, and a younger

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sister, Zipporah. Beatrice and Hilda survived the war and reunited

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with Weisel at a French orphanage.

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Weisel was 15 and he with his family, along with the

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rest of the town’s Jewish population was placed in 1 of 2 confinement

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ghettos set up in Szeged, the town where he had been born and

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raised. In May 1944, the Hungarian

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authorities, under German pressure, began to deport the Jewish

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community to the Auschwitz concentration camp where up to

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90% of people were murdered on arrival.

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It’s interesting that I’m reading this book now. I’m also reading another book, which you

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will cover on the podcast a little bit later on this month or

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perhaps maybe later on this year, Hannah

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Arendt’s Eichmann in Jerusalem, a report on the banality

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of evil. And when you read that book

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about Adolf Eichmann’s, trial in

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Jerusalem in the 1960s, what you begin to realize is that the

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Hungarians were the last out of all the European

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countries to actually start solving the Jewish

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problem. And, yes, they did it under German

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pressure. They were unwilling to go as far as the

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Germans wanted them to go. But the second

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that the Germans told them that this was the direction that they were going to

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be going in, the Hungarian authorities were all too

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eager to start shipping their Jews to concentration

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camps.

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One other note about this book. Eli Weisel,

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as an author, wrote a much longer version

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of this. It’s divided into 3 parts. So, night, day,

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and then I believe the other part is dawn. And it’s a much

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larger book. And it took him, gosh, probably

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about 10 to 12 years after he was

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released fourth the concentration camps, to actually be able to

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put some of the things in words that he had experienced

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directly as a 15, 16, Jesan 17 year old.

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His mother and his oldest sister or sorry, not his mother

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and his youngest sister did not survive the concentration camps,

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neither did his father, Shlomo. And the father’s death

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is described in brutal detail in night. And there’s a

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lot of details in here that are turning. And so we’re going to cover some

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of them today. So this is fair warning right at the beginning, that we’re going

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to get into some we’re going to get into some stuff here.

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But I want to put forth the first question to both Ryan and Libby, and

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we can kind of bounce this question back and forth. I don’t care who goes

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first today. It doesn’t really matter. Let’s

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talk a little bit about the literary life of Eli Weisel, the impact of Knight,

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what you know about this book, what you heard about this book. Let’s talk a

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little bit about that just to sort of open here.

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And any either one can either one can begin. At this point, you

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know, I am fairly I I

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travel around a lot. I’m just, you know, bitter. And

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so books just show up in my book.

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Book. It’s, like, kinda has, like, a magnifying. Just like one day, I have no

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idea how God their night was there. Just kind of in my collection of

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books. And I moved to Cincinnati about two and a half years ago, and I

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was like, this is probably a book I should read. And it’s kind of like

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what your opening statement was. I was like, you know, I I read the, you

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know, the the I didn’t really know much about it, fourth writer. And,

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that’s the book I read when I first moved in. And, I

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yeah. As far as the, I love

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how I love when writers can writers

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so poignantly and so powerfully. Camu does that really well.

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And and using the simple language and describing those, like,

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grotesque scenes and almost allowing the the reader to kinda plug

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in information as well. He’s just providing us the the the specifics

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of the the details Tom, you know, to give us, I believe, a necessary

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insight into the capabilities

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of, you know, humankind

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Mhmm. On both ends of that. You know? So it’s it’s

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you know? Yeah. I had not

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read it. I, I am a Oprah

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Winfrey fan.

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My favorite book, the untethered soul, came from her,

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and it started my own journey,

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you know, to a whole another level. I think I’m on Libby

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11.0or12.0 at this point, and she got me at,

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like, 3.0. But I

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think I avoided it because there was already so

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much that we knew about the Podcast, and it was

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just too much to take in. Mhmm.

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And actually reading the book, it was very it was very

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difficult. It brought me to tears, Tom many

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times just thinking about what humans could

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do to each other,

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the honesty that he had as well, you know, as he

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moved through the, you know, the camps.

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You know, when you’re in Maslov’s pyramid of needs and you’re all the

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way at the bottom, all of us can

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lose it’s just about getting food.

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Mhmm. Yeah. I I think they say after 3 days with no water, all of

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us could turn to ferocity and that we’re not

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that far away from being feral ourselves.

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But it was, yeah, incredibly

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moving. It also was really hard to read in light of what

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we’ve just experienced for the last 4 years.

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And, you know, and not knowing knowing

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knowing things weren’t right, but not knowing

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what truths to believe. Mhmm. And when

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he wasn’t believing beat you know, beetle,

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and he was warning, you know, how many of those those

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warnings do we get as well that, you

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know, are false and we over index on believing are

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true fourth are true and, you know, and we

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don’t and we don’t believe. So it’s kinda it’s very

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poignant for a lot of reasons fourth the last, you know, 4 years and

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then, you know, in the last 6 months.

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You know, what folks were warning about,

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you know, kind of emerged and not from where you expected it to.

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So it’s, it’s really inter it was very

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interesting. I read the version that his wife,

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translated, and so it was

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it was, I don’t know, like, 20 years 20 or 30 years after he wrote

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it. And I I like that

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the the, the description that he gave is as I

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understand English better now, and so I can give

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a little more flavor. Those are my words. Flavor to what

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happened. But, it’s powerful. I don’t wanna read it again.

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I think everyone should. I don’t know why this book

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touched me much more than any war books when you’ve or

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movies. I am someone who covers my eyes in war movies.

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So, you know, but I’m not brought to

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tears, and this one brought me to tears thinking about what humans could do to

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humans. And maybe it’s because it’s so close to our

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history, and we know people touch I know so many people touched by

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00:18:21,935 –> 00:18:23,155
it. Mhmm.

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00:18:25,929 –> 00:18:29,530
It is written in a very clear, to Ryan’s

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point, a very clear, deceptively

289
00:18:33,345 –> 00:18:37,105
simplistic language. There’s not a lot of flowery

290
00:18:37,105 –> 00:18:39,365
description, in this

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00:18:40,850 –> 00:18:44,230
in this narrative at all. Obviously,

292
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autobiographical, obviously being driven by what he

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directly experienced. Ryan, you’re a writer

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and you’ve done a fair bit of writing yourself. How hard

295
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is it to like strip away and,

296
00:18:59,210 –> 00:19:02,890
strip away. Sort of the

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00:19:02,890 –> 00:19:06,534
meaningless fluff. Right. And Olivia and I talked about those a little bit with

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00:19:06,534 –> 00:19:10,172
the sun also rises and with Henry’s Hemingway, comfort Hemingway. But I’d

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00:19:10,172 –> 00:19:13,810
like to get your thoughts on this because as a writer, how do

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00:19:13,810 –> 00:19:16,430
you look at what Weisel has done here?

301
00:19:18,250 –> 00:19:21,310
Stuff. Epic. Because I

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00:19:24,755 –> 00:19:28,435
a and I think it was 70 I’ve writers you a 75 word

303
00:19:28,435 –> 00:19:32,210
sentence. Mhmm. And so being

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00:19:32,210 –> 00:19:35,890
direct is not really the strong suit of a writer

305
00:19:35,890 –> 00:19:39,570
such as myself. I think that’s where, like, maybe songs or

306
00:19:39,570 –> 00:19:43,144
poetry comes in, something like that. But you can even twist words around

307
00:19:43,144 –> 00:19:46,745
even more so. It’s because it’s just an abstraction and an abstraction and an

308
00:19:46,745 –> 00:19:50,500
abstraction. It becomes this, you know, sort of, like,

309
00:19:50,500 –> 00:19:53,720
flowery thing. Like, the the the kid, Halal, I was talking

310
00:19:53,860 –> 00:19:57,080
about, earlier. He

311
00:19:57,380 –> 00:20:00,644
had used to cry when he was younger uncontrollably.

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00:20:01,184 –> 00:20:04,225
And so it was, like, a really big deal when he’s in school, roughly. He

313
00:20:04,225 –> 00:20:07,200
can just cry and cry and cry. And so and he would talk about it

314
00:20:07,200 –> 00:20:10,800
and I saw a video on his iPad and it was

315
00:20:10,800 –> 00:20:14,585
him as, like, a 7 year old or 6 year old And he’s like,

316
00:20:14,645 –> 00:20:18,405
and now and he’s getting his, like, crying under control. And he’s like, and

317
00:20:18,405 –> 00:20:22,040
now I’m gonna give you a tear. And he

318
00:20:22,040 –> 00:20:25,580
closes his eyes and a tear runs down his face.

319
00:20:25,720 –> 00:20:29,260
And I’m like, bro, I’m a pallet. You can’t show that to me, dude.

320
00:20:33,315 –> 00:20:36,615
So are you kidding? You’re gonna give me a tier? Oh my goodness gracious.

321
00:20:37,235 –> 00:20:40,918
So from that end of things, yes. It has. And that’s just one simple

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00:20:40,918 –> 00:20:43,780
turning. And I feel like the writing too made it so visceral. It’s like you

323
00:20:43,780 –> 00:20:47,140
just hear this one thing that’s so connected to you

324
00:20:47,140 –> 00:20:50,695
know? And it’s also so far away from what most

325
00:20:50,695 –> 00:20:54,295
people can relate to is affecting our lives immediately. So it’s it

326
00:20:54,295 –> 00:20:58,100
is such a a horrible, horrible thing to to

327
00:20:58,100 –> 00:21:01,780
even imagine and consider. Another thing that I thought

328
00:21:02,260 –> 00:21:05,780
Yeah. I mean, it was really matter of fact. You

329
00:21:05,780 –> 00:21:09,085
know, and he didn’t he didn’t over

330
00:21:09,804 –> 00:21:13,325
it’s what you would observe if you were just in it. Right?

331
00:21:13,325 –> 00:21:17,130
Like, you wouldn’t have time to be flowery either or think

332
00:21:17,130 –> 00:21:20,970
about how you feel about it. You’d just be observing it,

333
00:21:20,970 –> 00:21:24,555
and I think that was, you know, why it was so poignant.

334
00:21:24,935 –> 00:21:27,675
You know, it didn’t over it he didn’t explain anything.

335
00:21:29,335 –> 00:21:33,049
He just told you how he saw yeah. Really saw

336
00:21:33,049 –> 00:21:36,809
it. The one of the other things I wanna we

337
00:21:36,809 –> 00:21:38,510
talked about voice of the beetle.

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00:21:41,365 –> 00:21:44,885
I I was thinking of, like, kind of the sagacious Jesan. It’s the

339
00:21:44,900 –> 00:21:47,845
essays of the of the play, you know. It’s the the fourth you know, it’s

340
00:21:47,845 –> 00:21:51,610
the the turning. And, and it was just and

341
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then when we were talking Olivia, you brought up, like, what to sort of believe

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and and tease and tether out. It’s like

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00:21:58,650 –> 00:22:02,034
so it is difficult. You have this kind of clairvoyant saying, hey. This is

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00:22:02,034 –> 00:22:05,315
scumming. And it’s like, yeah. That’s a crazy person. How often do we just say

345
00:22:05,315 –> 00:22:09,150
that’s a crazy person and dismiss them, because

346
00:22:09,150 –> 00:22:12,590
it’s so kind of unrelatable, or just

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fantastical at a particular moment. And and I made me think about how

348
00:22:16,270 –> 00:22:20,014
animals are never, you never see, like, graveyards of

349
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animals from natural disasters. There’s this is clearly, like, the

350
00:22:23,695 –> 00:22:27,215
holocaust is there’s a spiritual malady turning, and I think that’s

351
00:22:27,215 –> 00:22:30,800
the, kind of the the

352
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maybe the through line of what’s happening currently,

353
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this kind of the spiritual brokenness. And

354
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and turning to be plugged into that

355
00:22:42,185 –> 00:22:45,960
is is, I think, kind of a I think like,

356
00:22:46,419 –> 00:22:48,250
so many of us could not imagine it. So if it’s not in your heart

357
00:22:48,250 –> 00:22:49,559
or your head to even imagine that

358
00:22:53,855 –> 00:22:57,155
a human has that capacity, you would think that

359
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they’re crazy. Right? Like,

360
00:23:01,260 –> 00:23:04,700
it I mean, I have bad thoughts, but I could never

361
00:23:05,100 –> 00:23:08,540
they they would never fall in the the realm of what

362
00:23:08,540 –> 00:23:12,355
he saw and experienced, like, what they did to babies and, you know, and

363
00:23:12,407 –> 00:23:16,115
turning like, it’s I can’t even say it because it doesn’t it

364
00:23:16,115 –> 00:23:19,870
it I can’t even fathom it. But that’s why I

365
00:23:19,870 –> 00:23:23,470
think people don’t believe is because they, yeah, they can’t believe

366
00:23:23,470 –> 00:23:27,195
what they can’t imagine. You know?

367
00:23:27,195 –> 00:23:30,795
And then we have movies that just, you know, have you so far

368
00:23:30,795 –> 00:23:34,554
detached from it being real that it just seems fantastical, and they

369
00:23:34,554 –> 00:23:38,299
don’t they didn’t have movies fourth meaningful movies back then. But I

370
00:23:38,299 –> 00:23:41,520
think if you can’t imagine it, I also

371
00:23:42,539 –> 00:23:46,095
think the reason he could have hope on the

372
00:23:46,095 –> 00:23:49,695
other side is because he also saw true

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00:23:49,695 –> 00:23:53,190
goodness in humanity. Right? Even

374
00:23:53,190 –> 00:23:56,950
with the evil, he saw the you know, he saw goodness, and so

375
00:23:56,950 –> 00:24:00,630
there was enough from a goodness perspective to keep him moving

376
00:24:00,630 –> 00:24:04,335
forward. Well, one of the things that we’re

377
00:24:04,335 –> 00:24:08,175
going to talk about today is and and, Libby, you kind of touched

378
00:24:08,175 –> 00:24:11,240
on it. Ryan, you touched a little bit on it. And we are going to

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00:24:11,240 –> 00:24:14,760
address it. I mean, it is it is in our notes today to talk about

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00:24:14,760 –> 00:24:17,900
the resurgence of, antisemitism in our time,

381
00:24:18,635 –> 00:24:22,255
which is disturbing to me, at a

382
00:24:22,794 –> 00:24:26,600
at Tom multiple levels. And I

383
00:24:26,600 –> 00:24:30,440
don’t well anyway, we’ll talk about that coming up here because there’s no

384
00:24:30,440 –> 00:24:32,940
possible way you could talk about this book without talking about antisemitism.

385
00:24:34,200 –> 00:24:37,975
But I I like I said fourth, I’m also reading

386
00:24:37,975 –> 00:24:41,495
Hannah Arendt’s, you know, Eichmann in Jerusalem, writers, her

387
00:24:41,495 –> 00:24:45,270
reporting on the trial of Adolf Eichmann. I’m reading this parallel at the

388
00:24:45,270 –> 00:24:48,790
same time that I’m reading Knight. And one of

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00:24:48,790 –> 00:24:52,230
the challenges and, Jordan

390
00:24:52,230 –> 00:24:55,625
Peterson talks about this sometimes, and it is a

391
00:24:56,005 –> 00:24:59,225
it is a good point. He essays, if you can’t imagine

392
00:25:00,429 –> 00:25:04,110
yourself doing some of these things, then you

393
00:25:04,110 –> 00:25:07,950
probably don’t know though fourth own capacity for

394
00:25:07,950 –> 00:25:11,485
evil. And he’s a person

395
00:25:11,485 –> 00:25:14,385
who came to social prominence

396
00:25:14,925 –> 00:25:18,750
through psychologically wanting to solve the problem of

397
00:25:19,690 –> 00:25:23,290
evil. And the Podcast, even

398
00:25:23,290 –> 00:25:27,095
more so than Stalin’s gulags, which killed far more people, by

399
00:25:27,095 –> 00:25:30,635
the way. And Alexander Solzhenitsyn wrote about this in the Gulag Archipelago

400
00:25:30,775 –> 00:25:34,455
when I you know, we’ve covered that book on this podcast. But

401
00:25:34,455 –> 00:25:37,810
the Holocaust strikes us at so much more of a visceral level,

402
00:25:38,910 –> 00:25:42,670
even though Stalin stacked up way more bodies than Hitler. And

403
00:25:42,670 –> 00:25:46,068
I’m not being facetious about that. Just this is just a issue. Tom.

404
00:25:46,414 –> 00:25:50,174
Right. Just Mao right. Oh my gosh. Mao. Writers? Top 3

405
00:25:50,174 –> 00:25:53,380
mass murderers of the 20th century. Right? And

406
00:25:53,680 –> 00:25:57,280
and yet we are stunned into

407
00:25:57,280 –> 00:26:00,820
silence by the Podcast in the West

408
00:26:00,960 –> 00:26:04,525
anyway. Now in other places of the world,

409
00:26:07,545 –> 00:26:08,045
specifically,

410
00:26:11,820 –> 00:26:15,660
what the heck? I’m gonna go ahead and go for it. Specifically in the

411
00:26:15,660 –> 00:26:19,445
in the more Muslim or Islamic parts of the world, no one is

412
00:26:19,445 –> 00:26:23,044
stunned into silence by the Podcast. It’s either

413
00:26:23,044 –> 00:26:26,804
dismissed fourth shrugged off fourth it’s called a myth or it’s called a

414
00:26:26,965 –> 00:26:30,100
and we’ll talk about this again coming up here in a little bit, a Zionist

415
00:26:30,240 –> 00:26:33,460
conspiracy. And,

416
00:26:34,399 –> 00:26:38,135
none of those dogs hunt for me, and I don’t think they hunt for

417
00:26:38,135 –> 00:26:40,235
any rational human being.

418
00:26:45,870 –> 00:26:49,710
Weisel got to something in the human heart, which is a larger

419
00:26:49,710 –> 00:26:53,155
thing that we’re gonna talk about coming up here Tom, I think. Or not. I

420
00:26:53,155 –> 00:26:56,355
know we’re gonna talk about coming up here. He got to something that exists in

421
00:26:56,355 –> 00:27:00,070
the human heart. And it starts with that. I

422
00:27:00,070 –> 00:27:03,830
think that that lack of belief in the Cassandra, the prophet

423
00:27:03,830 –> 00:27:07,669
that’s going to tell you the future. Ryan, you called it clairvoyant. I

424
00:27:07,669 –> 00:27:10,794
I prefer the, you know, the the the old Greek idea of a Cassandra,

425
00:27:11,815 –> 00:27:15,174
or a canary in a coal mine. Moishe was a canary in a coal mine.

426
00:27:15,174 –> 00:27:18,880
Right? And, you

427
00:27:18,880 –> 00:27:22,640
know, I think one of the reasons why we’re so

428
00:27:22,640 –> 00:27:26,100
viscerally why people got so visceral over COVID in this country

429
00:27:26,665 –> 00:27:28,925
was because we don’t want to be fooled again.

430
00:27:30,425 –> 00:27:33,865
We have this narrative in our head. And one of the things that disturbs me

431
00:27:33,865 –> 00:27:35,690
greatly and concerns me greatly

432
00:27:43,755 –> 00:27:47,295
have that seem to have that thing in their head. Right.

433
00:27:47,515 –> 00:27:49,835
And I don’t know if that’s a failure of the education system. I don’t know

434
00:27:49,835 –> 00:27:52,930
if that’s a failure parenting in a family. I don’t know if it’s a failure

435
00:27:52,930 –> 00:27:56,530
of not reading these books. You know, I went to

436
00:27:56,530 –> 00:28:00,345
Half Price Books to pick up my copy of Knight with

437
00:28:00,345 –> 00:28:04,185
this specific cover, and there were, like, 50 copies

438
00:28:04,185 –> 00:28:07,890
there. It’s not like you can’t get the information. It’s not like you

439
00:28:07,890 –> 00:28:11,030
can’t read it. So I guess my question is,

440
00:28:15,335 –> 00:28:19,174
how do we get more people to be touched by this? I mean,

441
00:28:19,174 –> 00:28:22,695
I’m doing my part talking about it right now, but how do we get more

442
00:28:22,695 –> 00:28:24,315
people to be touched by this?

443
00:28:28,280 –> 00:28:31,740
You know, I feel it has to be sort of woven

444
00:28:31,880 –> 00:28:35,245
somehow into the, like, current narrative of,

445
00:28:37,725 –> 00:28:41,245
social importance and kind of probably abstracted in a

446
00:28:41,245 –> 00:28:44,650
way. So it may enter as, you

447
00:28:44,650 –> 00:28:48,490
know, as something about

448
00:28:48,490 –> 00:28:52,235
the podcast, but it may be extracted into something else that doesn’t even

449
00:28:52,554 –> 00:28:55,934
be sort of alright. So do you know how the the the Proud Books started?

450
00:28:56,635 –> 00:28:58,975
Mm-mm. It was a joke. It was a joke.

451
00:29:02,650 –> 00:29:06,250
It was it was a, Gavin McGinnis is working at

452
00:29:06,250 –> 00:29:09,625
this, studio, and, one of

453
00:29:09,625 –> 00:29:13,305
their tech guys was this, like, 19 or 20 year old Jewish kid, and he

454
00:29:13,305 –> 00:29:16,445
was he went to, like, op

455
00:29:19,309 –> 00:29:19,809
Nope.

456
00:29:23,630 –> 00:29:27,375
We’ve been having trouble with Ryan’s audio coming in and out. I know.

457
00:29:27,375 –> 00:29:31,135
We’ll see if he, we’ll see if he comes back. Go

458
00:29:31,135 –> 00:29:34,415
ahead, Libby. Yeah. I don’t know this. I don’t know the story of the Proud

459
00:29:34,415 –> 00:29:38,160
Boys either. I don’t. I don’t either. Or how prominent

460
00:29:38,160 –> 00:29:40,980
they are. That’s the question that I also have.

461
00:29:44,275 –> 00:29:47,875
You know, get oh, are you there? Oh,

462
00:29:47,875 –> 00:29:50,595
good. Yeah. I’m gonna here. I’m gonna,

463
00:29:51,715 –> 00:29:52,215
go.

464
00:29:55,700 –> 00:29:59,320
There we go. And so

465
00:29:59,779 –> 00:30:03,595
this song came on and it was, like, the big encore song of the play

466
00:30:03,595 –> 00:30:06,955
and it was you’re a proud boy and and Gavin Gavin

467
00:30:06,955 –> 00:30:10,794
McGinnis was just kinda teasing this dude, and we should start a club called the

468
00:30:10,794 –> 00:30:14,330
Proud Boys. And so they would, like, go to bars and drink and just do,

469
00:30:14,330 –> 00:30:18,010
like, dude stuff. And that was kind of that was it. And then Gavin McGinnis

470
00:30:18,010 –> 00:30:21,470
would go on speaking engagements, Antifa would be there, and then, like,

471
00:30:21,675 –> 00:30:24,315
he’d asked the Proud Boys to come and then it turning into what it turned

472
00:30:24,315 –> 00:30:27,755
into, and he’s been out of it for for a long time. So it started

473
00:30:27,755 –> 00:30:31,200
off as a complete joke, and

474
00:30:31,200 –> 00:30:35,040
it it spiraled into and so when we talk

475
00:30:35,040 –> 00:30:38,560
about kind of, like, what to believe and this does not get fooled again, and

476
00:30:38,560 –> 00:30:42,235
and if it’s so pervasive that it could spawn something

477
00:30:42,695 –> 00:30:45,275
something can spawn out of something so so tiny.

478
00:30:47,370 –> 00:30:50,970
I actually think that speaks to something bigger about the abuse of

479
00:30:50,970 –> 00:30:54,705
institutions. You know? So those who

480
00:30:54,705 –> 00:30:58,165
tend to want power are those who should have it.

481
00:30:59,745 –> 00:31:03,500
And, you know, so, I, again, I don’t

482
00:31:03,500 –> 00:31:06,460
wanna touch on the Proud Boys too much because I don’t know enough about it.

483
00:31:06,460 –> 00:31:10,300
But the idea being that it got popular based off

484
00:31:10,300 –> 00:31:13,665
of one turning, and then like, kind of like BLM got

485
00:31:13,665 –> 00:31:16,565
infiltrated too, with the Marxists.

486
00:31:17,505 –> 00:31:21,330
You know? So, you know, does Proud Boys get infiltrated and then, you

487
00:31:21,330 –> 00:31:24,930
know, taken somewhere it doesn’t you know, that the original folks

488
00:31:24,930 –> 00:31:28,530
didn’t want it to go? You know? I have friends whose

489
00:31:28,530 –> 00:31:31,755
kids are at Harvard, and, you know,

490
00:31:32,295 –> 00:31:36,075
they, you know, they’ll, you know, their

491
00:31:36,375 –> 00:31:39,995
the different groups also got kind of hijacked. Mhmm.

492
00:31:41,000 –> 00:31:44,620
And when you’re that young, you don’t know how to fight it,

493
00:31:45,160 –> 00:31:48,840
or the import of it, you know, because you’re still

494
00:31:48,840 –> 00:31:52,505
in that I need to belong. I’m I’m fortunate that I’ve

495
00:31:52,505 –> 00:31:55,865
always been allergic to tribalism since the age of

496
00:31:56,265 –> 00:31:59,325
yeah. Since 3rd grade. But,

497
00:32:00,400 –> 00:32:04,100
a lot of folks don’t know how like, belonging

498
00:32:04,159 –> 00:32:07,815
is so important to them, especially on the female side,

499
00:32:07,815 –> 00:32:11,115
unfortunately. You know, they

500
00:32:11,655 –> 00:32:15,415
they they get caught up in something, and they don’t know how to get

501
00:32:15,415 –> 00:32:18,769
out because their identity is so tied up

502
00:32:18,769 –> 00:32:21,669
with, you know, what it previously was.

503
00:32:22,690 –> 00:32:25,510
And they have friends now that are

504
00:32:26,265 –> 00:32:30,025
promoting things they didn’t believe in, but they don’t wanna know not belong because

505
00:32:30,025 –> 00:32:33,720
they may be the only outsider. You know? So you have so many different

506
00:32:33,880 –> 00:32:37,640
human dynamics that are at play, but we do see

507
00:32:37,640 –> 00:32:41,159
how a lot of positive institutions, like

508
00:32:41,159 –> 00:32:41,659
Congress,

509
00:32:44,904 –> 00:32:48,664
you know, got taken over by those who you want to

510
00:32:48,664 –> 00:32:52,486
use power for their own means. You know? And it sounds like

511
00:32:52,486 –> 00:32:56,303
that was yeah. We know that happened with BLM. Yeah. We know that happens

512
00:32:56,303 –> 00:33:00,120
with a lot. Yeah. We that happened probably with Proud Boys. You know,

513
00:33:00,120 –> 00:33:03,575
so one of the ways to counter that is always trying to

514
00:33:03,575 –> 00:33:06,235
localize things and keep things decentralized.

515
00:33:08,880 –> 00:33:12,568
Well and one of the things and it’s interesting you’ve mentioned, you mentioned Proud Books.

516
00:33:12,720 –> 00:33:15,760
It’s not necessarily what I would have gone, but it’s interesting. I I actually just

517
00:33:15,760 –> 00:33:18,500
listened to an interview with Gavin McGinnis.

518
00:33:20,785 –> 00:33:23,905
I can’t remember who interviewed him. It was a podcast interview with him because I

519
00:33:23,905 –> 00:33:27,530
didn’t know anything about him. Literally

520
00:33:27,530 –> 00:33:30,670
nothing. Like, that’s part of the world that I’m blind to.

521
00:33:31,450 –> 00:33:35,095
And He’s like the first hipster. Yeah. Right.

522
00:33:35,095 –> 00:33:38,455
Yeah. Yeah. And and I listened to it, and I

523
00:33:38,455 –> 00:33:38,955
thought

524
00:33:43,320 –> 00:33:47,000
not to be dismissive because, you know, ideas have

525
00:33:47,000 –> 00:33:50,220
consequences. Right? And that’s why we read we read the book.

526
00:33:52,905 –> 00:33:55,885
And this ties into the conversation that we’ll have a little bit later around antisemitism

527
00:33:56,185 –> 00:34:00,025
as well. I want to be very clear I’m not being dismissive of the ideas

528
00:34:00,025 –> 00:34:03,740
behind these kinds of thinkers, writers, and these kinds of people who are

529
00:34:03,740 –> 00:34:07,500
putting themselves forth in the public era. And

530
00:34:07,500 –> 00:34:10,764
2 things can be true at one Tom. And.

531
00:34:16,344 –> 00:34:19,889
It’s like looking at a bad copy of a bad Tom, Right. Like

532
00:34:21,790 –> 00:34:25,489
the level of I don’t want to say commitment. That’s not it.

533
00:34:25,630 –> 00:34:29,395
The level of. Trolling. Let me

534
00:34:29,395 –> 00:34:33,235
let me yeah. That’s the word I’m looking for. Trolling, gaslighting, that

535
00:34:33,315 –> 00:34:37,015
that’s evident in some of these of these actors’ behavior,

536
00:34:37,430 –> 00:34:41,050
Tom Libby, to your point, when they’re trying to capture institutions for their own

537
00:34:41,050 –> 00:34:43,550
for their own use. They’re not serious about it.

538
00:34:44,410 –> 00:34:45,870
Himmler was serious.

539
00:34:48,145 –> 00:34:50,645
You know, Rudolf Hess was serious.

540
00:34:51,824 –> 00:34:55,469
Reinhard Heidrick was serious. It goes without

541
00:34:55,469 –> 00:34:59,310
saying that Hitler was serious. You know, these were grown

542
00:34:59,310 –> 00:35:02,805
ups who had been through the First World War and had

543
00:35:03,105 –> 00:35:05,585
you know, you can I was I was talking to my kid about the history

544
00:35:05,585 –> 00:35:09,345
of the 1st World War, my my youngest daughter? And I said,

545
00:35:09,345 –> 00:35:12,720
you know, you can you can say a lot about Hitler and you should, but

546
00:35:12,720 –> 00:35:16,400
you cannot take away fourth the fact that he did something that was incredibly hard

547
00:35:16,400 –> 00:35:20,244
in world war one. He was a runner and not all those people made it.

548
00:35:20,244 –> 00:35:23,879
It was like 80, 90% death rate for readers.

549
00:35:24,165 –> 00:35:27,890
And yet he didn’t die, which is

550
00:35:27,890 –> 00:35:31,250
weird. Writers. It’s almost as if to the

551
00:35:31,250 –> 00:35:35,065
spiritual piece that there were

552
00:35:35,065 –> 00:35:37,596
some other things that had to happen in the world with that guy.

553
00:35:37,596 –> 00:35:41,385
Writers. And this does not justify him Sorrells it, nor does

554
00:35:41,385 –> 00:35:45,130
it dismiss anything that he, he, he did, But he was

555
00:35:45,130 –> 00:35:48,890
a grown up. I listened to that interview with Mr.

556
00:35:48,890 –> 00:35:52,089
McGinnis and I don’t get the sense that he’s a grown up. You’re not behaving

557
00:35:52,089 –> 00:35:55,695
like a mature individual. You’re not behaving like you actually

558
00:35:55,755 –> 00:35:59,215
understand that your words carry weight and meaning.

559
00:36:00,075 –> 00:36:03,670
And by the way, the this is the problem I had with BLM too. You’re

560
00:36:03,670 –> 00:36:07,190
not behaving like you’re a grown up. Like none of you could

561
00:36:07,190 –> 00:36:09,690
carry Malcolm X’s briefcase.

562
00:36:11,205 –> 00:36:14,965
And yet you want to go around and scream about black nationalism, get the

563
00:36:14,965 –> 00:36:18,740
hell out of town. You haven’t earned it. You really

564
00:36:18,740 –> 00:36:20,520
have it. You haven’t earned it.

565
00:36:22,980 –> 00:36:26,360
So that is the part to me that I kind of

566
00:36:26,500 –> 00:36:30,225
struggle with a little bit in these types of conversations.

567
00:36:30,845 –> 00:36:34,445
And so I think what gives weight and seriousness, what gives

568
00:36:34,445 –> 00:36:37,820
maturity, gravitas, I guess, is the word that I’m looking

569
00:36:37,820 –> 00:36:41,280
for to some of these ideas is exploring exactly

570
00:36:41,420 –> 00:36:44,780
where these ideas go, which is the value of reading books like

571
00:36:44,780 –> 00:36:45,280
this.

572
00:36:48,445 –> 00:36:52,285
I’m gonna jump back into the book. Ryan’s gotta go do something. So

573
00:36:52,285 –> 00:36:55,089
he’s gonna log off for just a second. Well, not log. He’s gonna mute mute

574
00:36:55,089 –> 00:36:58,130
himself, and then he’s gonna go do the thing he needs to do. And Olivia

575
00:36:58,130 –> 00:37:01,890
and I are gonna keep talking here. Back to the book, back

576
00:37:01,890 –> 00:37:05,515
to 9th by Eli

577
00:37:05,515 –> 00:37:09,195
Weisel. There was a woman among us, a

578
00:37:09,195 –> 00:37:12,830
certain missus Shachter. She was in her

579
00:37:12,830 –> 00:37:16,110
fifties, and her 10 year old son was with her, crouched in a corner. Her

580
00:37:16,110 –> 00:37:19,470
husband and 2 older sons had been deported with the first transport by

581
00:37:19,470 –> 00:37:23,115
mistake. The separation had totally shattered her.

582
00:37:24,135 –> 00:37:27,895
I knew her well. A quiet, tense woman with piercing eyes, she had

583
00:37:27,895 –> 00:37:31,310
been a frequent guest in our house. Her husband was a pious man who spent

584
00:37:31,310 –> 00:37:34,750
most of his days and nights in the house of study. It was she who

585
00:37:34,750 –> 00:37:38,545
supported to the family. Missus Schacter lost

586
00:37:38,545 –> 00:37:41,984
her mind. On the 1st day of the journey, she had already begun to

587
00:37:41,984 –> 00:37:45,525
moan. She kept asking why she had been separated from her family.

588
00:37:46,100 –> 00:37:49,940
Later her sobs and screamers became hysterical. On the

589
00:37:49,940 –> 00:37:53,380
3rd night, as we were sleeping, some of us sitting huddled against each other, some

590
00:37:53,380 –> 00:37:57,015
of standing, a piercing cry broke the silence. Fire. I see a fire. I

591
00:37:57,015 –> 00:38:00,775
see fire. There’s a moment of panic. Who had screamed? It

592
00:38:00,775 –> 00:38:04,200
was missus Schachter Standing in the middle of the car and the faint light filtering

593
00:38:04,200 –> 00:38:06,760
through the window, she looked like a withered tree in a field of wheat. She

594
00:38:06,760 –> 00:38:10,600
was howling, pointing at the window. Look. Look at this fire, this terrible

595
00:38:10,600 –> 00:38:14,365
fire. Have mercy on me. So I pressed against the bars to

596
00:38:14,365 –> 00:38:18,125
see there was nothing, only the darkness of the night. It took

597
00:38:18,125 –> 00:38:21,950
a long time, to recover from this harsh awakening. We were still trembling.

598
00:38:21,950 –> 00:38:25,329
And with every screech of the wheels, we felt the abyss open being beneath us.

599
00:38:25,549 –> 00:38:28,925
Unable to steal our anguish, we tried to reassure each other. She is

600
00:38:28,925 –> 00:38:32,765
mad, poor woman. Someone placed a damp rag

601
00:38:32,765 –> 00:38:36,465
on her forehead, but she nevertheless continued to scream, fire, I see a fire.

602
00:38:37,890 –> 00:38:41,089
Her little boy was crying, clinging to her skirt, trying to hold her hand. It’s

603
00:38:41,089 –> 00:38:44,695
nothing, mother. There’s nothing there. Please sit down. He pained me

604
00:38:44,695 –> 00:38:48,455
even more than did his mother’s cries. Some of the women

605
00:38:48,455 –> 00:38:51,815
tried to calm her. You’ll see you’ll find your husbands and sons again in a

606
00:38:51,815 –> 00:38:55,530
few days. She continued to scream and sob fitfully. Jews, listen to me,

607
00:38:55,530 –> 00:38:58,410
she cried. I see a fire. I see flames, huge flames. It was as though

608
00:38:58,410 –> 00:39:00,990
she was possessed by some evil spirit.

609
00:39:02,165 –> 00:39:05,925
We tried to reason with her fourth to calm ourselves, to catch our breath,

610
00:39:05,925 –> 00:39:09,685
and to soothe her. She is hallucinating because she is thirsty, poor woman. That’s why

611
00:39:09,685 –> 00:39:13,530
she speaks of flames devouring her. But it was all in vain.

612
00:39:13,590 –> 00:39:17,350
Our terror could no longer be contained. Our nerves had

613
00:39:17,350 –> 00:39:21,055
reached breaking point. Our very skin was aching. It was as though madness had

614
00:39:21,055 –> 00:39:24,895
infected all of us. We gave up. A few young men forced

615
00:39:24,895 –> 00:39:27,154
her to sit down then bound and gagged her.

616
00:39:29,349 –> 00:39:32,710
Silence fell again. The small Libby sat next to his mother crying. I started to

617
00:39:32,710 –> 00:39:35,430
breathe normally again as I listened to the rhythmic pounding of the wheels and the

618
00:39:35,430 –> 00:39:38,825
tracks of the train racing through the night. We could begin to doze again to

619
00:39:38,825 –> 00:39:42,585
rest, to dream. And so an hour or 2 passed,

620
00:39:42,585 –> 00:39:45,705
another scream jolted us. The woman had broken free of her bonds and was shouting

621
00:39:45,705 –> 00:39:49,460
louder than before. Look at the fire. Look at the flames. Flames everywhere.

622
00:39:50,720 –> 00:39:54,079
Once again, the young man bound and gagged her. When they actually struck her, people

623
00:39:54,079 –> 00:39:57,785
shouted their approval. You were quiet. Make that mad woman shut up. She’s

624
00:39:57,785 –> 00:40:01,464
not the only one here. She received several blows to the

625
00:40:01,464 –> 00:40:04,960
head, blows that could have been lethal. Her son was clinging desperately

626
00:40:05,420 –> 00:40:08,400
to her, not uttering a word. He was no longer crying.

627
00:40:09,580 –> 00:40:13,245
The night seemed endless. By daybreak, missus Schacter had settled down,

628
00:40:13,245 –> 00:40:16,925
crouching in her corner, her blank gaze fixed on some faraway place she no

629
00:40:16,925 –> 00:40:20,680
longer saw us. She remained like that all day,

630
00:40:20,680 –> 00:40:23,580
mute, absent, alone in the midst of us.

631
00:40:24,440 –> 00:40:27,900
Toward evening, she began to shout again, the fire over there.

632
00:40:28,455 –> 00:40:31,735
She was squinting somewhere in the distance, always the same place. No one felt like

633
00:40:31,735 –> 00:40:35,095
beating her anymore. The heat, the thirst, the stench, the lack of air were

634
00:40:35,095 –> 00:40:38,880
suffocating us. Yet all that was nothing compared to her screams, which tore

635
00:40:38,880 –> 00:40:42,480
us apart a few more days, and all of us would have started to

636
00:40:42,480 –> 00:40:46,165
scream. But we were pulling

637
00:40:46,165 –> 00:40:49,685
into a station. Someone near a window read to

638
00:40:49,685 –> 00:40:51,545
us, Auschwitz.

639
00:40:53,349 –> 00:40:55,049
Nobody had ever heard that name.

640
00:41:04,135 –> 00:41:07,895
When you read the stories of folks who have who survived the

641
00:41:07,895 –> 00:41:11,550
holocaust, one of the things that

642
00:41:11,550 –> 00:41:14,270
jumps out at you actually, there’s 2 things, 2 big things that jump out at

643
00:41:14,270 –> 00:41:17,570
you. I’m gonna talk a little bit about this idea with Libby and Ryan.

644
00:41:18,244 –> 00:41:21,925
And we are gonna pull leadership lessons from Eli Weisel and

645
00:41:21,925 –> 00:41:25,464
from Knight because there are lessons for leaders from this book.

646
00:41:26,410 –> 00:41:30,010
One of the big ones I actually we actually just covered, which I

647
00:41:30,010 –> 00:41:33,770
think is you have to know history and be mature

648
00:41:33,770 –> 00:41:37,275
and be responsible for your ideas where they go,

649
00:41:37,275 –> 00:41:39,695
clearing at the end of the path where they might lie.

650
00:41:41,994 –> 00:41:44,895
I think another lesson for leaders is that

651
00:41:45,750 –> 00:41:49,190
you’re going to have 2 responses to things that happen to

652
00:41:49,190 –> 00:41:52,549
you, 2 reactions. And,

653
00:41:52,869 –> 00:41:56,555
they could be summed up, these 2 reactions can be summed up in a couple

654
00:41:56,555 –> 00:41:59,855
of quotes. One that comes directly from Knight, another one that comes from,

655
00:42:00,715 –> 00:42:04,280
Yitzhak Zuckerman. He was a Jewish resistance fighter and a

656
00:42:04,280 –> 00:42:06,540
survivor of the Warsaw ghetto uprising.

657
00:42:08,360 –> 00:42:10,920
And it’s a quote that stuck with me for many years, and I thought about

658
00:42:10,920 –> 00:42:14,755
it when I was reading this book. He said, If you could lick

659
00:42:14,755 –> 00:42:18,115
my heart it would poison you. The amount of

660
00:42:18,115 –> 00:42:21,940
bitterness that he carried from the things that he saw happen to

661
00:42:21,940 –> 00:42:25,460
him and the things that he saw happen to people that he loved. The

662
00:42:25,460 –> 00:42:28,280
Warsaw ghetto uprising occurred in Warsaw, Poland,

663
00:42:29,244 –> 00:42:33,005
And that was the one Tom, and it’s actually talked about

664
00:42:33,005 –> 00:42:36,765
in Eichmann in Jerusalem, that was one of very rare number

665
00:42:36,765 –> 00:42:40,210
of times when the Jewish leaders did not

666
00:42:40,210 –> 00:42:44,050
cooperate with the National Socialists in their own

667
00:42:44,050 –> 00:42:47,745
destruction. One of the dis fourth disturbing things that you read about in

668
00:42:47,745 –> 00:42:51,525
Eichmann in Jerusalem is just how easy it was for the Nazis,

669
00:42:51,745 –> 00:42:55,430
the Germans, to get Jewish leaders to save

670
00:42:55,490 –> 00:42:59,010
Jews that were of a certain social class and allow other

671
00:42:59,010 –> 00:43:02,355
Jews to just go to Auschwitz.

672
00:43:08,095 –> 00:43:11,720
In night, the second idea is there,

673
00:43:11,779 –> 00:43:12,519
which is

674
00:43:15,380 –> 00:43:19,154
expressed by a concentration camp member, that

675
00:43:19,154 –> 00:43:22,694
Liesel was in a hospital bed next to in Buna

676
00:43:22,914 –> 00:43:26,329
because he was transported around as many Jews were to several different

677
00:43:26,329 –> 00:43:30,089
concentration camps. And at Buna he had to go into the hospital

678
00:43:30,089 –> 00:43:33,869
until he was put in the hospital, and he was there next to, a fellow

679
00:43:34,445 –> 00:43:38,285
concentration camp member. And, this

680
00:43:38,285 –> 00:43:41,725
guy essays to him, I have more faith in Hitler than anyone

681
00:43:41,725 –> 00:43:45,369
else. He alone has kept his promises, all his promises

682
00:43:45,565 –> 00:43:46,650
Tom the Jewish people.

683
00:43:49,915 –> 00:43:53,755
You’re going to have one of 2 reactions, right? You’re either

684
00:43:53,755 –> 00:43:57,569
going to drink from the cup of bitterness, and it’s going

685
00:43:57,569 –> 00:44:00,869
to be like consuming poison and hoping that the other person will die,

686
00:44:02,210 –> 00:44:06,045
or you’re going to be clear eyed, right,

687
00:44:06,125 –> 00:44:09,505
about what you’re actually going through and what’s actually happening to you,

688
00:44:10,765 –> 00:44:14,224
and you’re going to figure out a way to navigate around it.

689
00:44:14,285 –> 00:44:17,760
Right? There’s challenges in our

690
00:44:17,760 –> 00:44:21,600
time with genuine no. Not genuine. There’s

691
00:44:21,600 –> 00:44:24,820
challenges in our time of recognizing the difference between genuine

692
00:44:25,265 –> 00:44:28,724
genuinely tyrannical acts, and commitments

693
00:44:29,105 –> 00:44:32,885
and just political things, right, that are just happening in the moment.

694
00:44:35,099 –> 00:44:38,799
How do we and this is the this is the question for Olivia and Ryan.

695
00:44:39,020 –> 00:44:42,855
This is a heavy question. How do we

696
00:44:42,855 –> 00:44:46,155
use a book like this to separate out

697
00:44:46,934 –> 00:44:49,675
things, to to to slice and dice and

698
00:44:50,590 –> 00:44:54,290
separate political rhetoric from genuine tyrannical commitments.

699
00:44:55,870 –> 00:44:59,570
How do we use this text to raise our awareness?

700
00:44:59,815 –> 00:45:03,015
There’s a lot of talk about raising awareness, or at least there was a few

701
00:45:03,015 –> 00:45:06,695
years ago. Okay. Everybody wants their awareness raised. All

702
00:45:06,695 –> 00:45:10,200
right. That’s not a sexy act because once your

703
00:45:10,200 –> 00:45:13,820
awareness is raised and you’re responsible for what you do with that awareness,

704
00:45:14,040 –> 00:45:16,220
which we don’t often talk about that part.

705
00:45:18,115 –> 00:45:21,875
So how do we how do we and

706
00:45:21,875 –> 00:45:24,994
I think Waisel was worried about this too. How do we how do we avoid

707
00:45:24,994 –> 00:45:27,400
the cup of bitterness, And then how do we separate

708
00:45:29,300 –> 00:45:32,680
momentary political rhetoric from a genuine tyrannical commitment?

709
00:45:42,319 –> 00:45:45,380
From where I I feel like the Oh, go ahead.

710
00:45:47,440 –> 00:45:51,275
Feel like a a political rhetoric is

711
00:45:51,275 –> 00:45:54,815
to serve some other

712
00:45:59,570 –> 00:46:03,010
ulterior motive or or be, I don’t know, almost

713
00:46:03,010 –> 00:46:06,815
like, you know, like the the propaganda of of spreading an

714
00:46:06,815 –> 00:46:10,595
idea or something like that. Mhmm. In order to enact,

715
00:46:11,855 –> 00:46:13,714
you know, the tyrannical,

716
00:46:18,730 –> 00:46:22,090
hoped outcome. But, Libby, you were

717
00:46:22,090 –> 00:46:25,925
saying? I was just gonna say, like, life is too short to

718
00:46:25,925 –> 00:46:29,605
live with, you know, hate and bitterness. You know? I kinda

719
00:46:29,605 –> 00:46:32,920
just reject that in my in my body. Mhmm.

720
00:46:33,480 –> 00:46:37,319
You can be cautious. You can be vigilant, but

721
00:46:37,319 –> 00:46:39,099
you don’t have to hate

722
00:46:40,785 –> 00:46:42,484
and or be bitter.

723
00:46:45,185 –> 00:46:49,000
It, you know, I was really moved by

724
00:46:49,000 –> 00:46:52,780
the fire premonition Mhmm. A lot.

725
00:46:52,840 –> 00:46:56,285
And it actually takes me back to earlier in our

726
00:46:56,285 –> 00:46:59,964
conversation when you were kind of alluding to a

727
00:46:59,964 –> 00:47:03,565
spiritual awareness. Mhmm. Is that I think we yeah.

728
00:47:03,565 –> 00:47:06,800
Animals feel it. We know it. You know,

729
00:47:07,840 –> 00:47:11,440
I can feel darkness when I walk by it or drive by

730
00:47:11,440 –> 00:47:14,335
it. You know, I think my dogs can

731
00:47:14,435 –> 00:47:18,275
Tom, and it doesn’t have a rhyme or reason

732
00:47:19,030 –> 00:47:22,089
to it. I can just feel it. Mhmm.

733
00:47:23,990 –> 00:47:26,945
But the ability,

734
00:47:30,925 –> 00:47:34,560
to distinguish rhetoric from a true a

735
00:47:34,560 –> 00:47:37,940
true tyrant. If for me,

736
00:47:38,160 –> 00:47:41,600
again, the last 4 years, you can’t have open

737
00:47:41,600 –> 00:47:45,424
conversations and debate, and you can’t

738
00:47:45,424 –> 00:47:48,484
have arguments on the merits. You know?

739
00:47:49,345 –> 00:47:53,090
That Tom me you know, those who are refusing

740
00:47:53,090 –> 00:47:56,150
to allow that are the tyrants. Mhmm.

741
00:47:56,530 –> 00:47:59,830
Right? If you’re not allowing,

742
00:48:00,964 –> 00:48:04,645
you know, debate on the merits and even

743
00:48:04,645 –> 00:48:06,665
ugly ideas to be out there,

744
00:48:08,480 –> 00:48:12,320
then you can never actually see the light as well. And those

745
00:48:12,320 –> 00:48:15,140
who, shut down conversation

746
00:48:16,205 –> 00:48:19,965
are the ones who are afraid most afraid of

747
00:48:19,965 –> 00:48:23,565
losing control over their ideas and their way of

748
00:48:23,565 –> 00:48:27,190
living. And to me, they’re the ones who, you know, pose the

749
00:48:27,190 –> 00:48:31,030
greatest threat. What is it? So

750
00:48:31,030 –> 00:48:34,250
it’s, you know, kind of like engaging spirituality as an active

751
00:48:34,535 –> 00:48:37,674
way to to remedy all the informations.

752
00:48:39,575 –> 00:48:43,400
And my sister said something to me one time

753
00:48:43,400 –> 00:48:45,559
when I was applying for fourth job and I want an interview.

754
00:48:47,480 –> 00:48:51,214
It’s kinda, like, kinda gave it a lowdown on what was the exchange of ideas

755
00:48:51,214 –> 00:48:54,355
that we had. And she’s like, well and this is where,

756
00:48:57,135 –> 00:49:00,980
having some sort of, like, spiritual practice comes in in

757
00:49:00,980 –> 00:49:04,740
handy because if you have a series of Jesan that you live

758
00:49:04,740 –> 00:49:08,415
by or a series of, like, moral compass, then the

759
00:49:08,415 –> 00:49:12,255
decisions that I’m making are based through that filter and not through

760
00:49:12,255 –> 00:49:15,855
anywhere else. It it it simplifies the

761
00:49:15,855 –> 00:49:19,299
playing field and can, if, you know, if

762
00:49:19,299 –> 00:49:19,799
applied,

763
00:49:23,619 –> 00:49:27,425
accurately or effectively can, you know, can can really kinda

764
00:49:27,425 –> 00:49:31,105
streamline in in, the decision making process. And

765
00:49:31,105 –> 00:49:34,690
it’s through, like, this this spiritual practice. And and I think it’s

766
00:49:34,850 –> 00:49:38,070
it is interesting. I was watching, watching

767
00:49:40,530 –> 00:49:44,065
a physicist. Then he he said he was

768
00:49:44,065 –> 00:49:47,525
talking about something being in 2 places at the same time.

769
00:49:47,665 –> 00:49:51,380
Mhmm. Something that and so, yeah, you tell people that. And

770
00:49:51,380 –> 00:49:54,819
even if you show them a picture, they’re like, oh,

771
00:49:54,819 –> 00:49:58,579
cool. But it’s that idea that you were saying earlier,

772
00:49:58,579 –> 00:50:01,545
Libby. It’s like you can’t wrap your head around. So I know that’s the same

773
00:50:01,545 –> 00:50:05,305
thing. It’s not a that’s not 2 different things. It’s the

774
00:50:05,305 –> 00:50:08,847
same thing on the it it’s 2 places at one Tom,

775
00:50:08,870 –> 00:50:12,550
and you kinda just go, okay. Because it’s so far out aside of,

776
00:50:12,550 –> 00:50:16,305
like, what most people can grasp in reality. And so that

777
00:50:16,305 –> 00:50:19,765
plays into the fact of, like, the atrocities

778
00:50:19,825 –> 00:50:23,125
of what humankind can do to each other. Mhmm.

779
00:50:23,600 –> 00:50:27,280
I think the rhetoric also, when you

780
00:50:27,440 –> 00:50:31,280
the othering and division, you know, like, living from a

781
00:50:31,280 –> 00:50:34,925
spiritual place, there’s love for all. Like, I

782
00:50:34,925 –> 00:50:38,605
don’t care, you know, what religion you have. I

783
00:50:38,605 –> 00:50:42,430
don’t care, where you grew up. You know, this this is

784
00:50:42,430 –> 00:50:46,109
one of the reasons as a young child I was I just had the

785
00:50:46,109 –> 00:50:49,730
instinct of not, liking organized religion.

786
00:50:49,925 –> 00:50:52,965
Mhmm. You know? And I know this is writers and over said, but I had

787
00:50:52,965 –> 00:50:56,724
the intuition at a very young age. You know, God would not

788
00:50:56,724 –> 00:51:00,210
want us to kill other, you know, others

789
00:51:00,590 –> 00:51:03,570
who didn’t think like us. You know? And so,

790
00:51:04,510 –> 00:51:08,245
Chris Cuomo has a really strong saying that I really like that

791
00:51:08,245 –> 00:51:11,845
it’s you know, when you feel positioning over principles or

792
00:51:11,845 –> 00:51:15,540
dogma over principles, then you know that you have

793
00:51:15,540 –> 00:51:19,300
the you’re in the hands of some folks who may not have the

794
00:51:19,300 –> 00:51:22,900
most positive intentions. And they may not be

795
00:51:22,900 –> 00:51:26,684
aware of it, but you never know how far they’ll go

796
00:51:26,904 –> 00:51:30,664
to retain, you know, the position of being right or

797
00:51:30,664 –> 00:51:34,279
in power. Yeah. So principles yeah. That’s,

798
00:51:34,279 –> 00:51:37,960
yeah, that’s what I always gravitate to principles. Like, I belong to lots of

799
00:51:37,960 –> 00:51:41,595
different groups, but I’m not dogmatic about any of them. And it’s when,

800
00:51:41,595 –> 00:51:44,895
you know, with the the principles of,

801
00:51:45,675 –> 00:51:49,520
you know, love and empowerment and wanting Tom, yeah, Wanting

802
00:51:49,520 –> 00:51:53,360
everyone to be become the best version of themselves, but empowering them to do

803
00:51:53,360 –> 00:51:57,140
that on their own. Mhmm. You know? You know, for me,

804
00:51:57,415 –> 00:52:01,095
it’s, you know, always about the Sorrells. And, you know,

805
00:52:01,415 –> 00:52:04,775
as long as you’re not pushing folks out who aren’t

806
00:52:04,775 –> 00:52:07,880
completely dogmatic, that’s a place that

807
00:52:08,900 –> 00:52:12,440
feels like a a a a true spiritual

808
00:52:12,579 –> 00:52:16,165
place. Or, but if you’re pushing

809
00:52:16,165 –> 00:52:19,925
people out who don’t think like you, then you’re in

810
00:52:19,925 –> 00:52:23,385
a cultish and tyrannical you have you have that

811
00:52:24,029 –> 00:52:27,630
ability to become tyrannical when

812
00:52:27,630 –> 00:52:31,069
you’re pushed too far. You know? And I the

813
00:52:31,069 –> 00:52:34,575
escalation of words and the use of words, I think, is one of the problems

814
00:52:34,575 –> 00:52:38,195
we’re having right now. Yeah. Is that we’ve escalated

815
00:52:39,615 –> 00:52:43,455
the point of all of our words actually have no meaning anymore. So

816
00:52:43,455 –> 00:52:46,820
we we actually it’s hard to determine rhetoric from reality.

817
00:52:47,280 –> 00:52:50,960
Mhmm. Mhmm. Because everyone’s Hitler. Right? Yeah, I was kidding. So it

818
00:52:50,960 –> 00:52:54,755
says I’m tired. Snooze. Just put me on snooze. I don’t wanna

819
00:52:54,755 –> 00:52:58,435
hear about Hitler anymore. You know? I I

820
00:52:58,435 –> 00:53:02,135
do. I mean, I I have been known to say in the past that,

821
00:53:02,380 –> 00:53:05,200
you know, it’s it’s become

822
00:53:06,140 –> 00:53:09,980
almost and and and it probably started happening probably about 20 or 30

823
00:53:09,980 –> 00:53:13,795
years ago. It became real easy just to kick Hitler,

824
00:53:13,855 –> 00:53:17,455
and that was just a stand in for all evil everywhere all of the time.

825
00:53:17,455 –> 00:53:21,000
I don’t think it was. I don’t think it was. I think you underestimate

826
00:53:21,300 –> 00:53:24,260
the Marxists. Yes. Yes. Never

827
00:53:25,140 –> 00:53:28,980
right? Like, you used Hitler. You never were talking about those

828
00:53:28,980 –> 00:53:32,505
who killed a 100,000,000. Right. You know, Mao and Solomon.

829
00:53:32,965 –> 00:53:36,645
Right. And this is the this is why we’re gonna talk

830
00:53:36,645 –> 00:53:40,340
about antisemitism here in a minute. This is why I think the antisemitism

831
00:53:40,640 –> 00:53:44,420
on the left in light of the

832
00:53:44,640 –> 00:53:48,145
October 7th, intifada from the Palestinians

833
00:53:48,525 –> 00:53:52,365
in Israel, has struck such folks

834
00:53:52,365 –> 00:53:54,305
politically on the left by surprise.

835
00:53:56,250 –> 00:54:00,010
I also think that I don’t I don’t wanna get back

836
00:54:00,010 –> 00:54:03,724
to this idea of religion here in a moment because Weisel’s

837
00:54:03,724 –> 00:54:07,165
very interesting on this point. I also think

838
00:54:07,165 –> 00:54:11,005
that Tom Ryan’s point, 2 things can’t be true at

839
00:54:11,005 –> 00:54:14,430
the same Tom, and that tension between those two

840
00:54:14,430 –> 00:54:17,870
things is what we’re seeking to use language to

841
00:54:17,870 –> 00:54:21,715
negotiate. And we’re gonna do it badly. We’re gonna do it

842
00:54:21,715 –> 00:54:24,835
terribly, and that’s why freedom of speech matters. You know, you need to have to

843
00:54:24,835 –> 00:54:27,735
your point, you need to have bad ideas, you know,

844
00:54:28,220 –> 00:54:28,720
vetted.

845
00:54:32,140 –> 00:54:35,975
Right? At a certain point, though and I and, you know, I’ve I’ve thought this

846
00:54:36,055 –> 00:54:39,895
and I’ve never said it on this podcast before, but I’ll say

847
00:54:39,895 –> 00:54:43,740
it now. If you make

848
00:54:43,740 –> 00:54:47,580
an idol of freedom of speech, your idol always eventually ends up judging

849
00:54:47,580 –> 00:54:51,420
you and judges you judges you harshly. So you gotta

850
00:54:51,420 –> 00:54:54,384
be careful what you put in that at the top of that hierarchy,

851
00:54:55,565 –> 00:54:59,325
or what you worship or or what you what you allow to push your

852
00:54:59,325 –> 00:55:02,650
religious observance. Speaking of religion,

853
00:55:03,430 –> 00:55:05,930
Wiesel, you know, when he when night opens,

854
00:55:07,349 –> 00:55:11,095
he says, you know, he’s talking about beating Moisha the beetle. He

855
00:55:11,095 –> 00:55:14,935
says, I was almost 13 and deeply observant. By day,

856
00:55:14,935 –> 00:55:17,895
I studied the Talmud, and by night, I would run to the synagogue to weep

857
00:55:17,895 –> 00:55:19,515
over the destruction of the temple.

858
00:55:21,800 –> 00:55:24,440
One day, I asked my father to find me a master who’d guide me in

859
00:55:24,440 –> 00:55:28,280
my studies of kabbalah or kabbalah. Sorry. You are too

860
00:55:28,280 –> 00:55:31,995
young for that. Maimonides tells us that one must be 30

861
00:55:31,995 –> 00:55:35,755
before venturing into the world of mysticism, a world fraught with peril. 1st,

862
00:55:35,755 –> 00:55:39,055
you must study the basic subjects, those you are able to comprehend.

863
00:55:40,240 –> 00:55:44,080
And it’s interesting to watch how Weisel, who was deeply

864
00:55:44,080 –> 00:55:46,820
observant, a deeply observant religious person,

865
00:55:52,424 –> 00:55:55,405
How going through the concentration camp and the holocaust

866
00:55:56,505 –> 00:56:00,270
process, And, again, I’m not minimizing

867
00:56:00,330 –> 00:56:02,190
it, but going through that experience.

868
00:56:05,634 –> 00:56:08,454
I won’t say I I don’t think it denuded him of religion,

869
00:56:09,315 –> 00:56:12,994
but I think the organizational parts of it. I mean, he talks

870
00:56:12,994 –> 00:56:16,089
about, you know, in the bet in the back end of the book, he talks

871
00:56:16,089 –> 00:56:19,210
about how in the in the concentration camp, they,

872
00:56:19,930 –> 00:56:22,670
believe it was Auschwitz, but it might have been Buna.

873
00:56:23,894 –> 00:56:27,575
They celebrated Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. And he

874
00:56:27,575 –> 00:56:31,320
thought Tom what end? Why are we doing this? What book at

875
00:56:31,320 –> 00:56:34,620
what we’re in. God isn’t hearing us. God isn’t

876
00:56:35,880 –> 00:56:39,320
god isn’t talking here. There’s no there’s

877
00:56:39,320 –> 00:56:43,085
no, there’s no judging deity here.

878
00:56:43,705 –> 00:56:47,545
You know? And that is one of the challenges.

879
00:56:47,545 –> 00:56:49,850
I mean, one of the other books that I’m reading this month as well is

880
00:56:49,850 –> 00:56:53,610
Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s, leaders from prison. And Dietrich

881
00:56:53,610 –> 00:56:57,310
Bonhoeffer was the Lutheran pastor, in

882
00:56:57,450 –> 00:57:01,285
Nazi Germany who was probably the

883
00:57:01,285 –> 00:57:03,785
most vociferous voice against Hitler,

884
00:57:04,885 –> 00:57:07,870
coming out of, coming out of Lutheranism and coming out

885
00:57:08,750 –> 00:57:12,510
Christianity. Then a lot of the Christian church, and this is a huge

886
00:57:12,510 –> 00:57:15,950
black eye on the Christian church, not just the Catholic

887
00:57:15,950 –> 00:57:18,465
church, the Christian church in Germany,

888
00:57:19,725 –> 00:57:22,065
the Protestant church in Germany.

889
00:57:23,405 –> 00:57:27,110
Did a lot to help Hitler out. Not a lot of folks stood up

890
00:57:27,110 –> 00:57:30,870
and opposed what Hitler was doing. And Bonhoeffer was one of

891
00:57:30,870 –> 00:57:34,345
those, all the way to the point where, I

892
00:57:34,345 –> 00:57:37,725
believe, if I remember correctly, he was hanged,

893
00:57:38,425 –> 00:57:41,805
in April of 1945. The Nazis executed him

894
00:57:42,480 –> 00:57:46,320
in a concentration camp, and that was

895
00:57:46,320 –> 00:57:50,080
probably, what, like 3 or 4 months before the concentration camp was, was

896
00:57:50,080 –> 00:57:53,715
liberated by the Russians. And so

897
00:57:54,095 –> 00:57:56,995
you know he took his principles all the way to the end.

898
00:58:00,789 –> 00:58:04,630
We don’t really talk about religion on this podcast. We’ll talk about we talk about

899
00:58:04,630 –> 00:58:08,315
theological stuff. We don’t talk about the construct of religion very much, like,

900
00:58:08,395 –> 00:58:08,895
at

901
00:58:12,075 –> 00:58:15,835
all. Liza was a religiously observant Jew. I think we can’t take that

902
00:58:15,835 –> 00:58:19,660
away from him before the before the

903
00:58:19,660 –> 00:58:23,040
holocaust came along and sort of restructured how he looked at that.

904
00:58:24,540 –> 00:58:26,960
Orga’s religion in our time in America

905
00:58:28,165 –> 00:58:32,005
is well, has been

906
00:58:32,005 –> 00:58:35,549
restructured. And I

907
00:58:35,630 –> 00:58:39,069
and one of the one of the challenges for particularly churches in

908
00:58:39,069 –> 00:58:42,529
America in our time is how to speak to culture

909
00:58:43,425 –> 00:58:46,625
and how to stop things from happening. So

910
00:58:50,850 –> 00:58:54,630
I mean, at a very practical level. Right? If you’re a pastor reading,

911
00:58:55,090 –> 00:58:58,530
you know, Knight, what would you

912
00:58:58,530 –> 00:59:01,944
recommend? Either Olivia or Ryan, what would you recommend

913
00:59:02,085 –> 00:59:03,944
that they take from this?

914
00:59:07,820 –> 00:59:11,660
The the the when I think of this book, the what I the

915
00:59:11,660 –> 00:59:15,100
image that I think of is him writers,

916
00:59:15,100 –> 00:59:18,855
running in the crowd and falling asleep

917
00:59:19,075 –> 00:59:22,855
and being asleep and running. Mhmm. And

918
00:59:22,915 –> 00:59:26,640
talking about everyone is is

919
00:59:26,820 –> 00:59:30,260
kinda communicating and shouting out if if people are kinda, like, lagging

920
00:59:30,260 –> 00:59:33,795
behind. But also in the same sense, if

921
00:59:33,875 –> 00:59:37,655
if someone fell, you have to keep going because if you stopped, fourth done too.

922
00:59:38,515 –> 00:59:40,994
Mhmm. So that’s,

923
00:59:42,770 –> 00:59:46,610
you know, it’s it that’s that that age old thought experiment. So the

924
00:59:46,610 –> 00:59:49,650
the train and the tracks and the 5 people to 1 and that sort of

925
00:59:49,693 –> 00:59:53,404
turning. It’s like you know but then it essays, you

926
00:59:53,404 –> 00:59:56,785
know, it’s just like the

927
00:59:57,244 –> 01:00:00,625
the parachute on the plane. It’s like, take care of yourself before,

928
01:00:01,390 –> 01:00:04,830
you know, you need to be whole before you can take care of anyone

929
01:00:04,830 –> 01:00:08,350
else. Mhmm. So, you know, kind of like

930
01:00:08,350 –> 01:00:11,265
that at such a young age to to

931
01:00:13,805 –> 01:00:17,565
keep going, like, in those

932
01:00:17,565 –> 01:00:21,309
moments and not necessarily because he’s he’s debating,

933
01:00:21,529 –> 01:00:24,730
you know, is he gonna sit there and debate in his head like, okay. This

934
01:00:24,730 –> 01:00:28,475
is happening and kinda, like, look at from the outer space and look what’s happening

935
01:00:28,475 –> 01:00:32,315
on and and and kind of, like, strategically. Yeah.

936
01:00:32,315 –> 01:00:35,535
Just the perseverance of of the it’s kind of unconscionable

937
01:00:35,915 –> 01:00:37,569
situations. Mhmm.

938
01:00:44,535 –> 01:00:47,915
Hello so I’m gonna do some shelling here

939
01:00:48,215 –> 01:00:51,895
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940
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959
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Now back to the show.

960
01:02:12,490 –> 01:02:15,550
For me, it’s about the will to survive, you know, and how,

961
01:02:17,385 –> 01:02:21,085
you know, innate innate and resilient, you know,

962
01:02:21,225 –> 01:02:25,039
we are. You know, when you

963
01:02:25,039 –> 01:02:28,799
have time for when you have time and safety, you can

964
01:02:28,799 –> 01:02:32,615
intellectualize anything. But when you’re

965
01:02:32,615 –> 01:02:36,155
at that base, you know, the base of the pyramid of needs,

966
01:02:36,615 –> 01:02:39,035
you know, your your desire to live

967
01:02:40,839 –> 01:02:43,020
is just, you know, is dominant.

968
01:02:44,680 –> 01:02:47,180
And I actually find something really,

969
01:02:48,040 –> 01:02:50,885
inspiring about that. Mhmm.

970
01:02:52,305 –> 01:02:54,805
You know, and, you know,

971
01:02:58,869 –> 01:03:02,630
and there’s no judgment to those who yeah. I don’t have

972
01:03:02,630 –> 01:03:06,089
judgment for those who can’t move forward. Like, I don’t know

973
01:03:06,465 –> 01:03:10,305
how yeah. They they might have been pushing themselves

974
01:03:10,305 –> 01:03:13,665
as much as they could, and for factors beyond their own, they you know, their

975
01:03:13,665 –> 01:03:17,330
body couldn’t move on or, you know, or whatever. But we are

976
01:03:17,330 –> 01:03:21,030
incredibly resilient, and, you know, good will survive

977
01:03:21,730 –> 01:03:25,349
and, you know, and evil will too. But

978
01:03:25,525 –> 01:03:28,825
I choose to live on the good and

979
01:03:29,125 –> 01:03:32,185
continue to express the words of the good.

980
01:03:32,485 –> 01:03:36,160
Mhmm. But it’s the power. It’s just

981
01:03:36,160 –> 01:03:39,940
how how strong that will is to survive for many people,

982
01:03:40,960 –> 01:03:44,625
that you’ll just just keep going. I just continue to think of him

983
01:03:44,625 –> 01:03:48,005
underneath the bodies and trying to just breathe.

984
01:03:49,820 –> 01:03:53,660
You know? And we have no idea

985
01:03:53,660 –> 01:03:57,500
what we would do in a situation, like, if hearing your father crying

986
01:03:57,500 –> 01:04:01,095
and wanting to be near you at his last breath,

987
01:04:01,955 –> 01:04:05,715
but not wanting Tom yeah, but not wanting to call

988
01:04:05,715 –> 01:04:09,380
out because you know that it’s also your death Right? Like,

989
01:04:09,380 –> 01:04:13,160
what would you do? I remember, was it in MASH,

990
01:04:13,620 –> 01:04:17,464
you know, when the mother ended up suffocating her child Mhmm.

991
01:04:17,625 –> 01:04:21,305
Because this child was crying Yep. And was gonna

992
01:04:21,305 –> 01:04:25,020
give up everyone else. You know? We live in

993
01:04:25,020 –> 01:04:28,860
a world right now that feel that

994
01:04:28,860 –> 01:04:32,400
feels very safe and is intellectually dishonest

995
01:04:33,214 –> 01:04:36,895
because they do not they’re just well, they’re into they’re

996
01:04:36,895 –> 01:04:40,355
playing intellectual games. No one knows what they would do,

997
01:04:40,734 –> 01:04:44,250
you know, if push comes to shove, you know,

998
01:04:45,110 –> 01:04:48,710
and, you know, where they where they that line is drawn

999
01:04:48,710 –> 01:04:51,335
around, you know, how to

1000
01:04:57,795 –> 01:05:01,310
a to a situation. It’s

1001
01:05:01,310 –> 01:05:04,990
situation specific. But it’s just the resilience and that desire to

1002
01:05:04,990 –> 01:05:08,645
live and move on and not want to live in hate. You know, one

1003
01:05:08,645 –> 01:05:12,425
thing I’ve never understood is people who can celebrate someone else’s death.

1004
01:05:12,725 –> 01:05:16,299
It doesn’t matter how evil that person is. Like,

1005
01:05:16,299 –> 01:05:20,059
I don’t choose I can’t play God. I may want to put

1006
01:05:20,059 –> 01:05:23,200
them in prison. I may want to get them out of,

1007
01:05:24,795 –> 01:05:27,935
out of a position of creating power, but not celebrating

1008
01:05:28,235 –> 01:05:32,015
anyone’s death. Yeah. Yeah. Well, when

1009
01:05:36,579 –> 01:05:39,779
I know. I I What are the well, what are the is awful, but I

1010
01:05:39,779 –> 01:05:43,515
don’t celebrate his death. I blacked out of power. No. No. No.

1011
01:05:43,515 –> 01:05:47,355
No. No. No. That’s not that’s yes. I agree there. No.

1012
01:05:47,355 –> 01:05:51,160
No. No. What I’m where I’m going is, we live

1013
01:05:51,160 –> 01:05:54,960
in a comfortable and I’m not the first person to say this. We live

1014
01:05:54,960 –> 01:05:57,700
in a comfortable time. Right? For all the chaos,

1015
01:05:58,405 –> 01:06:01,765
psychological mostly, but even

1016
01:06:01,765 –> 01:06:05,305
financial, material I mean,

1017
01:06:05,960 –> 01:06:09,640
you know, you can go online anywhere, and you can read

1018
01:06:09,640 –> 01:06:13,240
about how young men and young women aren’t getting married,

1019
01:06:13,240 –> 01:06:16,315
and the the marriage, dating family

1020
01:06:16,775 –> 01:06:20,615
dynamic is all screwed up for people under the age of, you know, 35.

1021
01:06:20,615 –> 01:06:24,349
Like you can read that everywhere. There’s all these, hyperventilating thought

1022
01:06:24,349 –> 01:06:27,490
pieces about all the chaos that’s going on down there in the dating market.

1023
01:06:28,270 –> 01:06:31,855
There are hyperventilating thought pieces written about artificial intelligence and large

1024
01:06:31,855 –> 01:06:35,455
language models and how they’re gonna, you know, create

1025
01:06:35,455 –> 01:06:39,135
deep fakes and, you know, you fake the president and does this

1026
01:06:39,135 –> 01:06:42,860
and then do that. There’s arguments online about

1027
01:06:42,860 –> 01:06:45,840
how and in real life about how,

1028
01:06:46,780 –> 01:06:50,555
well, the personal is political. Right? Our identity. I mean, we’re

1029
01:06:50,555 –> 01:06:54,234
in the month of June, right? So, you know, we’re going to, we’re going to

1030
01:06:54,234 –> 01:06:57,755
make our identity a political act, whether it’s a racial identity, a class

1031
01:06:57,755 –> 01:07:01,289
identity, a sexual orientation or sexual or sexual

1032
01:07:01,289 –> 01:07:04,109
identification identity. We’re going to make that a political act.

1033
01:07:04,890 –> 01:07:08,484
And and the fundamental nature of books like

1034
01:07:08,484 –> 01:07:12,325
this, along with the Gulag Archipelago, and

1035
01:07:12,325 –> 01:07:15,480
a few others, is that it forces us to take

1036
01:07:17,480 –> 01:07:21,000
it forces us to move from things that are not

1037
01:07:21,000 –> 01:07:24,655
serious or, or fundamentally unserious to things that

1038
01:07:24,655 –> 01:07:25,474
are serious.

1039
01:07:25,862 –> 01:07:29,295
Writers.

1040
01:07:29,295 –> 01:07:33,000
And that idea of just keeping going

1041
01:07:33,000 –> 01:07:36,460
that idea of persistence, but also

1042
01:07:36,680 –> 01:07:40,220
persistence in an actual position based on principle.

1043
01:07:40,715 –> 01:07:44,415
Right? So you talked about Chris Cuomo. Chris Cuomo was interesting

1044
01:07:44,475 –> 01:07:46,335
cat to me because he

1045
01:07:48,820 –> 01:07:52,180
he doesn’t think that he did anything incorrect with

1046
01:07:52,180 –> 01:07:55,619
COVID. Right? He was the yeah. And and that’s

1047
01:07:55,619 –> 01:07:59,355
fine. You’re you’re welcome to your cognitive dissonance. Right?

1048
01:07:59,355 –> 01:08:03,115
It’s cognitive dissonance. Right? Yeah. You’re you’re welcome to your thought process. That’s fine,

1049
01:08:03,115 –> 01:08:04,655
Chris. Mister Cuomo,

1050
01:08:07,130 –> 01:08:10,810
if I may. But I’m

1051
01:08:10,810 –> 01:08:14,184
also okay to not forget. I could

1052
01:08:14,184 –> 01:08:17,404
forgive, but I’m not going to forget. I’m not going to forget

1053
01:08:18,024 –> 01:08:21,705
what you and the other talking, chattering class

1054
01:08:21,705 –> 01:08:25,449
heads sit on CNN during that time. I’m not gonna forget the

1055
01:08:25,449 –> 01:08:29,290
caterwauling that was on MSNBC. I’m not even gonna forget the

1056
01:08:29,290 –> 01:08:32,524
things that were said on Fox. I’m not ignorant. The Internet is

1057
01:08:33,064 –> 01:08:36,744
forever. Well, fourth it’s the closest thing to forever that we’ve got. Right? Yeah. You

1058
01:08:36,744 –> 01:08:40,470
know, that we’ve got currently. And so, you

1059
01:08:40,470 –> 01:08:44,229
know, words look. Should words

1060
01:08:44,229 –> 01:08:47,989
have consequences? Absolutely. That’s the side

1061
01:08:47,989 –> 01:08:51,194
of a mature individual is you realize your words have consequences.

1062
01:08:53,415 –> 01:08:56,955
And if you’re speaking for a place of principles

1063
01:08:57,415 –> 01:09:00,810
rather than a space of generating clicks, which by the way is

1064
01:09:00,810 –> 01:09:04,570
comfortable, then you’re going to actually say things that are meaningful and that

1065
01:09:04,570 –> 01:09:08,010
matter. Otherwise, you’re just gonna say stuff for

1066
01:09:08,010 –> 01:09:11,615
clickbait and you’re adding to the unseriousness.

1067
01:09:12,635 –> 01:09:15,915
And so when something serious does come along that does need to be dealt with,

1068
01:09:15,915 –> 01:09:19,194
you won’t have the language or the tools to be able to deal with it.

1069
01:09:19,194 –> 01:09:22,870
And that’s what drives me crazy about the current moment we’re in now. Like, materially,

1070
01:09:23,330 –> 01:09:26,689
we’re the most comfortable people on the planet ever to

1071
01:09:26,689 –> 01:09:30,395
freaking exist in human history, and yet we are

1072
01:09:30,395 –> 01:09:31,534
unwinding spiritually.

1073
01:09:34,395 –> 01:09:37,454
And we don’t have the words to describe why the unwinding is happening.

1074
01:09:38,659 –> 01:09:42,340
We’ve robbed ourselves of our own language. Just say I mean,

1075
01:09:42,340 –> 01:09:45,239
technology is just basically made it so you don’t have to

1076
01:09:45,805 –> 01:09:49,645
move. And so how do you, you know,

1077
01:09:49,645 –> 01:09:53,404
how do you how do you, that’s, you know, it’s it’s

1078
01:09:53,404 –> 01:09:56,960
how do you, you know, convince the rat that to take the next hit of

1079
01:09:56,960 –> 01:10:00,560
cocaine fourth the mouse. You know, you just it’s it’s

1080
01:10:00,560 –> 01:10:04,325
all it’s all it’s all it’s all brain chemistry at this point. Neurotransmitters

1081
01:10:04,358 –> 01:10:07,685
writers just getting that hit and hit and hit and the positive

1082
01:10:07,825 –> 01:10:11,205
reinforcement of that or the negative reinforcement of that.

1083
01:10:12,290 –> 01:10:15,570
I mean, it’s I don’t know. Take it

1084
01:10:16,050 –> 01:10:19,889
turn it into an app. Trick people into,

1085
01:10:19,889 –> 01:10:23,085
like, take the lessons in

1086
01:10:23,565 –> 01:10:27,165
like, I just I can’t help but think of I remember when

1087
01:10:27,165 –> 01:10:30,860
OxyContin really hit on the scene, and I forget

1088
01:10:31,000 –> 01:10:33,340
the politician’s name, but it was in Massachusetts.

1089
01:10:34,440 –> 01:10:37,960
And it was really big, in the

1090
01:10:37,960 –> 01:10:41,295
country to to figure out laws

1091
01:10:41,355 –> 01:10:45,114
and the criminality of it and that fourth of turning. And so this

1092
01:10:45,114 –> 01:10:48,155
guy was like, hey. It was like a it was a, like, a no strikes

1093
01:10:48,155 –> 01:10:51,750
policy. You know? Go directly to jail, you know, pass

1094
01:10:51,750 –> 01:10:54,090
go, blah blah blah. And then,

1095
01:10:56,150 –> 01:10:59,974
6 weeks later, something like that, his son overdosed on It

1096
01:10:59,974 –> 01:11:03,655
was like, this is the greatest tragedy that the

1097
01:11:03,655 –> 01:11:07,415
world has ever seen. We have to change the laws and

1098
01:11:07,415 –> 01:11:11,050
change these are sick people. They so until it affected him

1099
01:11:11,050 –> 01:11:14,590
personally, he really didn’t care. Right. And so,

1100
01:11:15,690 –> 01:11:19,245
you know, people and and I mean, people, it’s not like

1101
01:11:19,405 –> 01:11:23,085
yeah. Tom I guess, to your point, yeah, how do you take your tragedy

1102
01:11:23,085 –> 01:11:26,850
seriously? How do you take the the the the thing that happened to

1103
01:11:26,850 –> 01:11:30,690
you that should’ve killed you or could’ve killed you and turn that into

1104
01:11:30,690 –> 01:11:33,989
the most, I don’t know, the best thing that’s ever happened to you?

1105
01:11:36,594 –> 01:11:39,995
Yeah. Everyone has a different, you know, red pill or

1106
01:11:40,114 –> 01:11:43,900
yeah. I’ll call it just yeah. I’ll be provocative or not.

1107
01:11:43,900 –> 01:11:47,740
But, you know, you have your own bottom. Right? And, you know,

1108
01:11:47,740 –> 01:11:51,405
everyone well, those in recovery have different

1109
01:11:51,405 –> 01:11:54,764
bottoms. We are in a

1110
01:11:54,764 –> 01:11:57,005
dopamine right now. Everyone is

1111
01:11:58,630 –> 01:12:02,310
kids are filled with dopamine. You know? All they do

1112
01:12:02,310 –> 01:12:05,210
is touch a button and food comes to them. And to your point,

1113
01:12:06,474 –> 01:12:09,855
yeah, the rat’s not gonna stop asking for the Coke

1114
01:12:09,915 –> 01:12:13,434
until there’s a moment that gets it out of its feedback

1115
01:12:13,434 –> 01:12:17,180
loop and and allows it to see something else Tom, you know,

1116
01:12:17,180 –> 01:12:21,020
to go chase. You know? And so what are

1117
01:12:21,100 –> 01:12:23,994
is that moment that’s gonna break the pattern

1118
01:12:25,094 –> 01:12:28,934
that people are in so they can wake up? You know? For many,

1119
01:12:28,934 –> 01:12:31,489
it was October, you know, October 7th.

1120
01:12:32,909 –> 01:12:36,350
But what’s that next kind of it’s not

1121
01:12:36,350 –> 01:12:40,135
enough. What’s that next moment? And

1122
01:12:40,135 –> 01:12:43,895
can we can we reset before we hit too

1123
01:12:43,895 –> 01:12:47,700
far of a bottom? Right. Can can and and

1124
01:12:47,700 –> 01:12:51,480
by the way, that’s the job of leaders. The job of leaders is to be

1125
01:12:52,180 –> 01:12:54,200
fundamentally the people that say,

1126
01:12:56,205 –> 01:12:59,565
this is the line. This is what we’re what we’re

1127
01:12:59,565 –> 01:13:03,405
doing. You don’t get to go any further than this. Oh, well, we wanna go

1128
01:13:03,405 –> 01:13:07,230
further. No. No. Well, we’ll throw you over and find a leader

1129
01:13:07,230 –> 01:13:10,610
who can take us further. Okay. That’s fine.

1130
01:13:11,230 –> 01:13:15,045
That’s fine. One day, you know, you’re you’re you’re Winston Churchill,

1131
01:13:15,045 –> 01:13:17,605
and you’re on the back bench, and nobody wants to hear what you’ve got to

1132
01:13:17,605 –> 01:13:21,385
say about Hitler. And the next day, you’re talking about the Battle of Britain,

1133
01:13:22,050 –> 01:13:25,570
and you’re rallying the people. And then guess where Hitler or not. Sorry. Not Hitler.

1134
01:13:25,570 –> 01:13:29,090
Guess where Churchill wound up back at, the back bench where no one wanted to

1135
01:13:29,090 –> 01:13:32,835
listen to him. This is this is this is this

1136
01:13:32,835 –> 01:13:35,974
is this is this is this is the this is the price of leadership. Right?

1137
01:13:36,114 –> 01:13:39,560
The price of leadership isn’t that you win a championship. It’s not that you’re Michael

1138
01:13:39,560 –> 01:13:43,400
Jordan. Very often, you get to be you you get to be the

1139
01:13:43,400 –> 01:13:45,960
leader. Writers? You get to be the leader. You get to be and then you’re

1140
01:13:45,960 –> 01:13:49,535
you’re back into obscurity. And we don’t it’s

1141
01:13:49,535 –> 01:13:53,375
not glory seeking. And I and that’s probably the part that’s driving me most

1142
01:13:53,375 –> 01:13:57,135
or easy Yeah. Is is in the example you’re talking about with the with

1143
01:13:57,135 –> 01:14:00,910
Ryan, you know, the example you’re talking about with the with the politician

1144
01:14:00,970 –> 01:14:04,730
with OxyContin. He’s and I’m not saying that he wasn’t tragically

1145
01:14:04,730 –> 01:14:08,284
impacted by his son’s death. I think fourth sure he probably was.

1146
01:14:08,284 –> 01:14:11,965
That’s the best solution he could could think of because that’s the

1147
01:14:11,965 –> 01:14:15,165
only when everything well, you know, the only thing you got is a hammer, everything

1148
01:14:15,165 –> 01:14:18,900
looks like a nail. Got it. I understand. That’s my bugaboo. Right?

1149
01:14:18,900 –> 01:14:22,600
I’ve I’ve got this podcast, and it’s it’s the hammer I use.

1150
01:14:22,659 –> 01:14:25,845
Right? I’m as guilty of it as anybody else. I am.

1151
01:14:28,245 –> 01:14:31,145
Right? And leadership fundamentally

1152
01:14:31,765 –> 01:14:35,380
is the act of going through that cycle and

1153
01:14:35,380 –> 01:14:39,000
ignoring the glory. If it comes, great.

1154
01:14:40,179 –> 01:14:43,675
But more likely than not, you’re you’re gonna wind up in obscurity on the back

1155
01:14:43,675 –> 01:14:46,875
bench, and people are gonna be like, I didn’t like what you did. That’s okay.

1156
01:14:46,875 –> 01:14:47,855
We held the line.

1157
01:14:50,480 –> 01:14:54,260
That’s okay. Yeah. For me fourth me, I’m thinking about,

1158
01:14:54,480 –> 01:14:58,075
like, that will to survive, you know, of, you know, of

1159
01:14:58,075 –> 01:15:00,975
Eli’s or even Beatles, Moisha,

1160
01:15:02,235 –> 01:15:05,940
it’s, you know, it’s that drive to

1161
01:15:05,940 –> 01:15:09,080
to tell the story too so it doesn’t happen

1162
01:15:09,540 –> 01:15:12,600
again. Or so people are, what, are awake

1163
01:15:13,495 –> 01:15:17,255
and, you know, prepared so that it doesn’t happen to them.

1164
01:15:17,255 –> 01:15:21,015
Like, that can be a significant enough draw as to help others

1165
01:15:21,500 –> 01:15:25,020
Yeah. With the message. You know, to the point

1166
01:15:25,020 –> 01:15:28,824
that, you know, our leaders, we have, you

1167
01:15:28,824 –> 01:15:32,665
know, the me generation being, you

1168
01:15:32,665 –> 01:15:35,245
know, our my parents’ generation.

1169
01:15:37,320 –> 01:15:41,160
Yeah. They’re still the me generation. It’s like they’re not you know, they

1170
01:15:41,160 –> 01:15:44,840
just wanna be liked, and our congress and our government is led by

1171
01:15:44,840 –> 01:15:48,585
me’s, and they just want to be liked. And

1172
01:15:48,585 –> 01:15:52,425
we need folks who are okay. This is a theme that we’ve

1173
01:15:52,425 –> 01:15:56,250
had in all of our podcasts, hey, Son, is that you need to

1174
01:15:56,250 –> 01:16:00,010
be willing to make tough decisions. I don’t wanna be liked. I wanna

1175
01:16:00,010 –> 01:16:03,390
be respected, and the person I wanna be respected by is myself.

1176
01:16:03,735 –> 01:16:06,875
Mhmm. Right? And did I make the right tough decision?

1177
01:16:07,575 –> 01:16:10,955
And too many people care about what others think.

1178
01:16:11,495 –> 01:16:15,340
And it’s not that I don’t care, but it’s a tough love.

1179
01:16:17,000 –> 01:16:20,600
And we have too many spoiled children leading the you

1180
01:16:20,600 –> 01:16:24,295
know, leading all levels of society right now who have never

1181
01:16:24,295 –> 01:16:28,075
been said no. And they don’t understand the consequences

1182
01:16:28,375 –> 01:16:32,000
or care about the consequences of their actions, and that’s why the whole West Coast

1183
01:16:32,000 –> 01:16:35,840
is imploding. It was one of the my the friends

1184
01:16:36,000 –> 01:16:39,495
remember the 1st week or 2 being in school is like, oh my god. We

1185
01:16:39,495 –> 01:16:42,955
ruined these kids. I was like, oh my Jesus. Book. Everyone’s,

1186
01:16:43,175 –> 01:16:46,820
like, just, like, pounding Jolly

1187
01:16:46,820 –> 01:16:50,199
Ranchers and hitting a computer, and it’s just, like,

1188
01:16:51,139 –> 01:16:54,900
it’s pretty wild. It but in all Tom take it okay. This is

1189
01:16:54,900 –> 01:16:58,715
gonna take a history. I think remaining open, like like, I had an

1190
01:16:58,715 –> 01:17:02,554
old sponsor in AA who’s the district attorney. He said, I go

1191
01:17:02,554 –> 01:17:05,800
to every court case, giving 2%

1192
01:17:06,100 –> 01:17:09,860
to the other person because I don’t ever wanna be in a situation where I

1193
01:17:09,860 –> 01:17:12,179
think I know everything, you know.

1194
01:17:13,380 –> 01:17:16,935
And about that the events, it it

1195
01:17:16,935 –> 01:17:20,455
runs it’s kind of the end scene Tom feel the dreams I’m

1196
01:17:20,455 –> 01:17:24,270
always reminded of in these situations where you like, something’s

1197
01:17:24,410 –> 01:17:28,010
there and and it’s like you I

1198
01:17:28,010 –> 01:17:31,310
don’t reframe certainty in such complex

1199
01:17:31,366 –> 01:17:35,195
writers. I would say it’s probably, so the, you know,

1200
01:17:35,195 –> 01:17:38,475
the the guy in Field of Dreams, they’re playing the game. They’re playing the game

1201
01:17:38,475 –> 01:17:42,075
on the field with all the old timers that are ghost and invisible. And he’s

1202
01:17:42,075 –> 01:17:45,820
been fighting with, you know, Kevin Costner the

1203
01:17:45,820 –> 01:17:48,860
whole movie to sell the the thing because the field, because of the farm and

1204
01:17:48,860 –> 01:17:52,505
blah blah blah. And then he finally sees the leaders. He’s like, oh, you

1205
01:17:52,505 –> 01:17:56,045
can’t sell this farm. This is a this is a magical place,

1206
01:17:56,345 –> 01:17:58,685
and it’s been here the entire time. So

1207
01:18:04,719 –> 01:18:08,560
that. That. That. Well and

1208
01:18:08,560 –> 01:18:12,395
and and we’ll go back to the book here because we gotta turn

1209
01:18:12,395 –> 01:18:16,235
the corner here. We gotta talk about a couple of other things, that are pressing,

1210
01:18:16,475 –> 01:18:20,080
upon this narrative. I will say this.

1211
01:18:20,380 –> 01:18:24,220
I one of the reasons why I do the podcast in

1212
01:18:24,220 –> 01:18:27,775
the way that I do it is because and I invite the people on who

1213
01:18:27,775 –> 01:18:30,915
I wanna, who I wanna talk Tom, is because

1214
01:18:31,695 –> 01:18:35,300
adults in the room are the thing that’s missing. And and

1215
01:18:35,300 –> 01:18:39,060
we use that phraseology to talk about politicians who maybe

1216
01:18:39,060 –> 01:18:42,520
have reached a certain level of of chronological

1217
01:18:42,980 –> 01:18:45,985
maturity, or biological

1218
01:18:46,445 –> 01:18:50,205
maturity, but that doesn’t mean that you’re actually

1219
01:18:50,205 –> 01:18:53,940
the adult. You know? I know but I I know I I

1220
01:18:53,940 –> 01:18:57,620
I currently, the place I live in, average age is

1221
01:18:57,620 –> 01:19:01,415
55 to 75. I know a lot of I I I

1222
01:19:01,495 –> 01:19:04,395
then the very first weekend that we moved here, my wife and I went out

1223
01:19:04,455 –> 01:19:08,210
and, watched a 60 couple of 60 year

1224
01:19:08,210 –> 01:19:11,410
old men get tossed out of a bar for behaving like 19 year olds and

1225
01:19:11,410 –> 01:19:15,074
getting into a bar fight. Right. So chronological and

1226
01:19:15,074 –> 01:19:18,515
biological age is no indicator of being an adult. So

1227
01:19:18,515 –> 01:19:21,955
indicator of behaving in a mature and mature fashion.

1228
01:19:21,955 –> 01:19:25,699
Right. And I think the thing that we’re missing when

1229
01:19:25,699 –> 01:19:29,380
we say we’re missing adults in the room is we’re missing that sense of gravitas.

1230
01:19:29,380 –> 01:19:33,114
We’re missing that sense of position and and responsibility. We’re missing that sense of, to

1231
01:19:33,114 –> 01:19:36,875
Libby’s point being and doing and saying, and leaders on the

1232
01:19:36,875 –> 01:19:40,719
unpopular turning. So that a greater good can

1233
01:19:40,719 –> 01:19:44,560
occur on the other side of it. Speaking of

1234
01:19:44,560 –> 01:19:48,335
which let’s go back to the book. I’m going to read

1235
01:19:48,335 –> 01:19:51,635
some pieces from this. It’s a long section,

1236
01:19:52,815 –> 01:19:56,420
about well, about the camp. So back to the

1237
01:19:56,420 –> 01:19:59,560
book, back to night by Eli Weisel.

1238
01:20:01,185 –> 01:20:04,945
The camp looked as though it had been through an epidemic, empty and dead.

1239
01:20:04,945 –> 01:20:08,485
This is Buna. They had just arrived at Buna. It was a new concentration

1240
01:20:08,705 –> 01:20:12,360
camp, new for them anyway. Only a few, quote

1241
01:20:12,360 –> 01:20:15,960
unquote, well dressed inmates are wandering between the blocks. Of course, we first had to

1242
01:20:15,960 –> 01:20:19,085
pass through the showers. The head of the camp joined us there. He was a

1243
01:20:19,085 –> 01:20:22,605
stocky man with big shoulders, the neck of a bull, thick lips, and curly hair.

1244
01:20:22,605 –> 01:20:26,429
He gave an impression of kindness. From time to time, a smile would linger in

1245
01:20:26,429 –> 01:20:30,190
his gray blue eyes. Our convoy included a few 10

1246
01:20:30,190 –> 01:20:33,765
12 year olds. The officer took an interest in them and gave them

1247
01:20:33,765 –> 01:20:37,525
orders and gave orders to bring them food. We were given new clothing and

1248
01:20:37,525 –> 01:20:41,130
settled in 2 tents. We were to wait there until we could be

1249
01:20:41,130 –> 01:20:44,590
incorporated into work commandos and we would be assigned to a book.

1250
01:20:45,770 –> 01:20:49,505
In the evening, the commandos returned from work yards roll call. We began looking for

1251
01:20:49,505 –> 01:20:53,105
people. We knew asking the veterans, which work commandos were the best and which

1252
01:20:53,105 –> 01:20:56,645
block one should try to enter. All the inmates agreed.

1253
01:20:56,920 –> 01:21:00,360
Buna is a very good camp. One can hold one’s own here. The most important

1254
01:21:00,360 –> 01:21:04,119
thing is to not be assigned to the construction commando. As if we

1255
01:21:04,119 –> 01:21:07,855
had a choice. Our tent leader was a German, an

1256
01:21:07,855 –> 01:21:11,615
assassin’s face, fleshy lips, hands resembling wolf’s paws. The camp’s food had agreed with

1257
01:21:11,615 –> 01:21:14,980
him. He could hardly move. He was so fat. Like the head of the camp,

1258
01:21:14,980 –> 01:21:18,520
he liked children. Immediately after our arrival,

1259
01:21:18,820 –> 01:21:22,565
he had bread brought for them some soup and margarine. In fact

1260
01:21:22,565 –> 01:21:26,245
this affection was not entirely altruistic. There existed here a

1261
01:21:26,245 –> 01:21:29,625
veritable traffic of children among homosexuals I learned later.

1262
01:21:30,245 –> 01:21:33,690
He told us, you will stay with me for 3 days in

1263
01:21:33,690 –> 01:21:37,530
quarantine. Afterward, you will go to work tomorrow, medical checkup. 1 of

1264
01:21:37,530 –> 01:21:41,045
his aides, a tough looking boy with shifty eyes, came over to me. Would you

1265
01:21:41,045 –> 01:21:44,645
like to get into a good commando? Of fourth. But on one condition, I want

1266
01:21:44,645 –> 01:21:48,085
to stay with my father. Alright. He said I could arrange it for a

1267
01:21:48,085 –> 01:21:50,600
pittance, your shoes. I’ll give you another pair.

1268
01:21:51,860 –> 01:21:55,700
I refused to give him my shoes. They were all I had left. I’ll

1269
01:21:55,700 –> 01:21:59,375
also give you a ration of bread with some margarine. He liked

1270
01:21:59,375 –> 01:22:03,135
my shoes. I would not let him have them. Later, they were taken from

1271
01:22:03,135 –> 01:22:06,115
me anyway in exchange for nothing that time.

1272
01:22:06,940 –> 01:22:10,700
The medical checkup took place outside early in the morning before 3 doctors seated

1273
01:22:10,700 –> 01:22:13,500
on a bench. The first hardly examined me. He just asked, are you in good

1274
01:22:13,500 –> 01:22:16,605
health? Who would have dared to admit the opposite?

1275
01:22:17,545 –> 01:22:21,305
On the other hand, the dentist seemed more conscientious. He asked me to open my

1276
01:22:21,305 –> 01:22:24,940
mouth wide. In fact, he was not looking for decay, but for gold teeth.

1277
01:22:25,160 –> 01:22:28,040
Those who had gold in their mouths were listed by their number. I did have

1278
01:22:28,040 –> 01:22:31,875
a gold crown. The first 3 days went by quickly. On the 4th

1279
01:22:31,875 –> 01:22:35,715
day, as we stood in front of our tent, the kapos appeared. Each one

1280
01:22:35,715 –> 01:22:39,540
began to choose the many he liked. You, you, you. They pointed their fingers the

1281
01:22:39,540 –> 01:22:43,060
way one might choose cattle or merchandise. We followed our

1282
01:22:43,060 –> 01:22:45,780
kapo, a young man. He made us halt to the door of the first block

1283
01:22:45,780 –> 01:22:49,425
near the entrance to the camp. This is the orchestra’s block. He motioned us

1284
01:22:49,425 –> 01:22:52,405
inside. We were surprised. What had we to do with music?

1285
01:22:53,665 –> 01:22:57,430
The orchestra was playing a military march, always the same. Dozens of commandos

1286
01:22:57,430 –> 01:23:01,210
were marching off in step to the work yards. The capitals were beating the time

1287
01:23:01,430 –> 01:23:05,015
left, right, left, right. SS officers, pen in hand, recorded the number

1288
01:23:11,175 –> 01:23:14,870
capoe Tom fallen. We fell into ranks of 5, and The capo yet

1289
01:23:14,870 –> 01:23:18,710
fall in. We fell into ranks of 5 with the musicians. We

1290
01:23:18,710 –> 01:23:21,690
left the camp without music, but in step, we still had the march in our

1291
01:23:21,690 –> 01:23:25,525
readers. Left, right, left, right. We struck up a

1292
01:23:25,525 –> 01:23:29,204
conversation with our neighbors and musicians. Almost all of them were Jews. Julie

1293
01:23:29,204 –> 01:23:32,750
Acapol with glasses and a cynical smile and a pale face.

1294
01:23:32,890 –> 01:23:36,650
Louis, a native of alland Holland, a well known violinist. He

1295
01:23:36,650 –> 01:23:40,315
complained that they would not let him play Beethoven. Jews were not allowed to

1296
01:23:40,315 –> 01:23:43,835
play German music. Hans, the young man from Berlin, was full of

1297
01:23:43,835 –> 01:23:47,375
wit. The former was a Pole, frantic, a former student in Warsaw.

1298
01:23:48,700 –> 01:23:52,060
Julie Eck explained to me, we work at a warehouse of electrical materials not far

1299
01:23:52,060 –> 01:23:55,760
from here. The work is neither difficult nor dangerous. Only IDEC, the capo,

1300
01:23:56,075 –> 01:23:59,215
occasionally has fists of madness, and then you better stay out of his way.

1301
01:24:00,315 –> 01:24:04,094
You are lucky, little fellows, at Hans smiling. You fell into a good commando.

1302
01:24:06,790 –> 01:24:10,469
Then they go I’m going to move ahead a little bit they, they

1303
01:24:10,469 –> 01:24:14,255
move through the warehouse, and they talk about

1304
01:24:14,255 –> 01:24:17,474
having a, a Jewish person as their leader,

1305
01:24:18,094 –> 01:24:21,850
named Alfonso. And then this, one day when

1306
01:24:21,850 –> 01:24:24,830
we had just returned for the warehouse, I was summoned by the block secretary.

1307
01:24:25,690 –> 01:24:29,375
A 7713. That’s me.

1308
01:24:29,915 –> 01:24:33,535
After your meal, you’ll go to see the dentist, but I don’t have a toothache.

1309
01:24:34,235 –> 01:24:37,860
After your meal, Without fail. I

1310
01:24:37,860 –> 01:24:40,820
went to the infirmary books, and 20 prisoners are waiting in line at the entrance.

1311
01:24:40,820 –> 01:24:43,860
It didn’t take long to learn the reason for our summons. Our gold teeth were

1312
01:24:43,860 –> 01:24:47,245
to be extracted. The dentist, a Jew from Czechoslovakia,

1313
01:24:47,625 –> 01:24:50,905
had a face not unlike a death mask. When he opened his mouth, I had

1314
01:24:51,145 –> 01:24:54,920
one had a ghastly vision of yellow, rotten teeth. Seated in the chair, I

1315
01:24:54,920 –> 01:24:58,760
asked weekly, what are you going to do, sir? I shall remove your gold

1316
01:24:58,760 –> 01:25:02,165
crown. That’s all, he said, clearly indifferent. I thought of pretending to be

1317
01:25:02,165 –> 01:25:04,965
sick. Couldn’t you wait a few days, sir? I don’t feel well. I have a

1318
01:25:04,965 –> 01:25:08,630
fever. He wrinkled his eyes, wrinkled

1319
01:25:08,630 –> 01:25:12,230
his brow thought for a moment and then took my pulse. All right, son, come

1320
01:25:12,230 –> 01:25:14,630
back and see me when you feel better, but don’t wait for me to call

1321
01:25:14,630 –> 01:25:18,405
you. I went back to see him a week later with the same excuse. I

1322
01:25:18,405 –> 01:25:21,205
still was not feeling better. He did not seem surprised and I don’t know whether

1323
01:25:21,205 –> 01:25:24,910
he believed me yet. He was most likely was pleased that I had

1324
01:25:24,910 –> 01:25:28,450
come back on my own. As I had promised, he granted me a further delay.

1325
01:25:29,070 –> 01:25:32,355
A few days after my visit, the dentist office was shut down. He had been

1326
01:25:32,355 –> 01:25:35,955
thrown into prison and was about to be hanged. It appeared he had been dealing

1327
01:25:35,955 –> 01:25:39,795
in prisoners’ gold teeth for his own benefit. I felt no pity for

1328
01:25:39,795 –> 01:25:42,670
him. In fact, I was pleased with what was happening to him. My gold crown

1329
01:25:42,670 –> 01:25:46,429
was safe. It could be useful to me one day to buy something, some

1330
01:25:46,429 –> 01:25:50,065
bread, or even time to live. At that moment in time, all that

1331
01:25:50,065 –> 01:25:53,905
mattered to me was my daily bowl of soup, my crust of

1332
01:25:53,905 –> 01:25:57,585
sale bread. The bread, the soup, those are my entire

1333
01:25:57,585 –> 01:26:01,300
life. I was nothing but a body, perhaps

1334
01:26:01,300 –> 01:26:04,840
even less a famished stomach. The stomach alone

1335
01:26:05,219 –> 01:26:07,320
was measuring time.

1336
01:26:14,635 –> 01:26:16,655
We’re gonna turning corner here and talk about

1337
01:26:18,809 –> 01:26:22,489
one of the scourges of our day, an old,

1338
01:26:22,489 –> 01:26:23,309
old disease

1339
01:26:25,985 –> 01:26:29,445
An old, old disease that has now

1340
01:26:30,385 –> 01:26:34,120
come back For barely

1341
01:26:34,120 –> 01:26:37,960
educated Ivy League college students on the political left claiming that Israel is a

1342
01:26:37,960 –> 01:26:41,420
colonizing nation state and Zionism is, quote, unquote, racism.

1343
01:26:42,255 –> 01:26:46,014
The barely qualified Patriot Front shills on substacks squawking about

1344
01:26:46,014 –> 01:26:49,474
quote unquote Zionist conspiracies control the world.

1345
01:26:50,420 –> 01:26:53,880
Antisemitism has yet again reared its ugly old head

1346
01:26:54,180 –> 01:26:57,745
this time in America. The

1347
01:26:57,745 –> 01:27:01,505
idea, and this is my fundamental problem with both the right and the left

1348
01:27:01,505 –> 01:27:05,185
on this, but the idea that the Jewish people are simultaneously pulling all the

1349
01:27:05,185 –> 01:27:08,989
strings in the world, as well as victimizing populations in the Middle East

1350
01:27:08,989 –> 01:27:12,449
without cause while also claiming to be victims themselves

1351
01:27:13,070 –> 01:27:16,595
is a canard older than the protocols of Zion and

1352
01:27:16,595 –> 01:27:17,735
just as false.

1353
01:27:20,035 –> 01:27:20,535
Now

1354
01:27:23,530 –> 01:27:27,290
I have a visceral response to antisemitism. It actually

1355
01:27:27,290 –> 01:27:31,105
makes my gut turning over. And I

1356
01:27:31,105 –> 01:27:34,705
think that’s a sign that I’m still human. I still have a moral

1357
01:27:34,705 –> 01:27:35,205
core.

1358
01:27:38,810 –> 01:27:42,489
I believe fundamentally leaders Christians, we are called

1359
01:27:42,489 –> 01:27:46,250
to protect Jewish people. Does that mean that we are called to advance

1360
01:27:46,250 –> 01:27:49,665
Jewish ideas or advance Jewish thoughts or

1361
01:27:49,665 –> 01:27:53,205
whatever? No. But there’s a fine line between

1362
01:27:53,425 –> 01:27:57,180
critiquing and falling into everybody’s ruling

1363
01:27:57,180 –> 01:28:00,640
the world everywhere nonsense. And

1364
01:28:00,700 –> 01:28:04,300
unfortunately, because we don’t have a maturity of thought, like we just talked about in

1365
01:28:04,300 –> 01:28:07,595
our last section, And because we lack adults in the

1366
01:28:08,615 –> 01:28:11,415
room, we don’t know where the line is. We don’t know how to have these

1367
01:28:11,415 –> 01:28:15,090
conversations anymore. And this seems to have surprised

1368
01:28:15,090 –> 01:28:17,890
people on the political left in the United States fourth so than anybody else. I

1369
01:28:17,890 –> 01:28:20,150
mean, people on the political right are always getting lambasted,

1370
01:28:21,885 –> 01:28:25,645
from the Ku Klux Klan, where

1371
01:28:25,645 –> 01:28:29,210
the Ku Klux Klan to, you know, whatever is Ryan was talking

1372
01:28:29,290 –> 01:28:32,890
about, whatever, you know, the proud boys are doing all the way to the Patriot

1373
01:28:32,890 –> 01:28:36,570
front, you know, fleets, the right in America has

1374
01:28:36,570 –> 01:28:39,075
always been, been whacked with antisemitism, but the left.

1375
01:28:44,008 –> 01:28:47,800
Jesan, time, which seems to flummox them,

1376
01:28:47,800 –> 01:28:51,100
is when do you know if when the left has gone too far?

1377
01:28:51,400 –> 01:28:55,035
It seems to fundamentally flummox them. And partially, this is because

1378
01:28:55,035 –> 01:28:58,715
there’s never enough Marxist revolution. Partially,

1379
01:28:58,715 –> 01:29:02,155
it’s also they are ill educated on the fact of Stalin and

1380
01:29:02,155 –> 01:29:05,120
Mao and and the gulags

1381
01:29:05,860 –> 01:29:07,840
and Pol Pot

1382
01:29:09,500 –> 01:29:12,974
and the reeducation camps in China and

1383
01:29:12,974 –> 01:29:16,275
all this and and North Korea. My god, North Korea.

1384
01:29:17,135 –> 01:29:20,815
I mean, an entire nation state devoted to the actual logical

1385
01:29:20,815 –> 01:29:21,715
end of Marxism.

1386
01:29:24,800 –> 01:29:28,560
Stalin’s gulags killed millions of Jews along with many, many other

1387
01:29:28,560 –> 01:29:32,155
people, And the political left has

1388
01:29:32,155 –> 01:29:35,915
never repudiated that. But they’ve also never

1389
01:29:35,915 –> 01:29:39,330
allowed that to be laid at their feet. Now they’ll claim that they’ve repudiated

1390
01:29:39,330 –> 01:29:43,170
it, but yet and still you keep talking

1391
01:29:43,170 –> 01:29:46,745
about Marxist ideas. So if you

1392
01:29:46,745 –> 01:29:50,505
genuinely repudiated it, you’d probably not be talking about Marxist

1393
01:29:50,505 –> 01:29:54,205
collectivism. But I think there’s something that we’re we’re missing here.

1394
01:29:54,900 –> 01:29:58,580
Yeah. Go ahead. What are we missing? Maybe maybe this Tom, it might

1395
01:29:58,580 –> 01:30:02,284
work. Right, the

1396
01:30:02,284 –> 01:30:05,965
old Kennard. We’re smarter. You’re

1397
01:30:05,965 –> 01:30:09,724
right. This is different. This is different. Yeah. We’re better

1398
01:30:09,724 –> 01:30:13,460
people because we’ve got dopamine inducing

1399
01:30:13,460 –> 01:30:16,199
devices in our hands. We have to be better people. Right?

1400
01:30:18,475 –> 01:30:22,235
What do we do with this? Why is the shadow of antisemitism going along in

1401
01:30:22,235 –> 01:30:25,195
our culture? And what do we do to push back on this? How do we

1402
01:30:25,195 –> 01:30:28,530
punch this in the mouth? Like, every year, people talk about, oh, punch punch Hitler.

1403
01:30:28,670 –> 01:30:31,469
Like, people on the left were talking about that a few years ago. And I

1404
01:30:31,469 –> 01:30:35,025
was just like, what are we doing? What are we doing? Of course,

1405
01:30:35,025 –> 01:30:38,865
maybe, maybe this is, this is a, what do you call it, a

1406
01:30:38,865 –> 01:30:42,570
nemesis showing up to the political left? And a nemesis is always

1407
01:30:42,570 –> 01:30:45,930
sort of an equal and opposite reaction fourth something that happens for something that you

1408
01:30:45,930 –> 01:30:48,670
do when you go too far, when you go into an excess.

1409
01:30:49,725 –> 01:30:53,245
I don’t know, but there’s always a spiritual element to

1410
01:30:53,245 –> 01:30:56,865
antisemitism as we’ve been talking about also on this podcast as well as an intellectual

1411
01:30:57,540 –> 01:31:01,380
and fundamentally, of course, from reading night, a physical element.

1412
01:31:01,380 –> 01:31:04,520
There’s a clearing at the end of the path with that with that crap.

1413
01:31:06,315 –> 01:31:09,675
So how do we push back against this? What what is what’s our best practices

1414
01:31:09,675 –> 01:31:12,815
here? I know Libby likes best practices.

1415
01:31:13,275 –> 01:31:16,450
But I I like I like I I mean, I really appreciate,

1416
01:31:20,190 –> 01:31:23,662
this how how it is influenced the expression of art literature.

1417
01:31:26,015 –> 01:31:29,535
I mean, Vonnegut has a book on mother night

1418
01:31:29,935 –> 01:31:31,555
Mhmm. That’s that’s

1419
01:31:33,870 –> 01:31:36,830
that is, influencing and and and and,

1420
01:31:38,429 –> 01:31:41,810
it’s kind of about the World War 2 in in in Nazi Germany.

1421
01:31:42,685 –> 01:31:46,205
I found this on the street walking by a

1422
01:31:46,205 –> 01:31:50,045
meter, like one of those kiosks that, park parking lot

1423
01:31:50,045 –> 01:31:53,870
meter Mhmm. And started. Oh,

1424
01:31:53,870 –> 01:31:57,710
mouse. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. There

1425
01:31:57,710 –> 01:32:01,475
is a better Yes. I love that. Yeah. That’s, that’s a great,

1426
01:32:01,715 –> 01:32:04,855
that’s a great graphic novel. And and,

1427
01:32:07,000 –> 01:32:10,760
you know, the fourth of the

1428
01:32:10,760 –> 01:32:14,555
parables can be in any way, shape, or form. Mhmm.

1429
01:32:14,795 –> 01:32:18,555
And so our literature kind of always been her music is just can be my

1430
01:32:18,555 –> 01:32:22,015
been my go Tom. Or just being kind.

1431
01:32:23,220 –> 01:32:26,600
Going out of my way Tom be kind. Like, be being proactive

1432
01:32:27,060 –> 01:32:29,640
in in in our, you know, community.

1433
01:32:32,355 –> 01:32:36,115
I mean, how often you know, it’s funny some comedians talk about, like, yeah, when

1434
01:32:36,115 –> 01:32:39,895
you’re, you know, your kids, somebody would knock on the door, you’d have company.

1435
01:32:39,950 –> 01:32:43,310
You’d have, you know, you have guests. You your mom would get, like, the Entenmann’s

1436
01:32:43,310 –> 01:32:46,770
or whatever. Mhmm. Take some coffee and hang out and talk.

1437
01:32:47,125 –> 01:32:50,965
Like, a Tuesday night, you’re just having, like, friends, your fourth parents are

1438
01:32:50,965 –> 01:32:54,565
over and hanging out. And now it’s like somebody knocks on the

1439
01:32:54,625 –> 01:32:58,317
fourth, everyone jumps in a closet, and it’s like, who’s

1440
01:32:58,317 –> 01:33:01,980
turning to who’s, like, who’s knocking at the door? Like,

1441
01:33:01,980 –> 01:33:05,665
suspicious suspicious. So So we we

1442
01:33:05,665 –> 01:33:09,425
we push back by building community is what you’re saying Mhmm. And and

1443
01:33:09,425 –> 01:33:13,140
using art and literature. For sure. Building

1444
01:33:13,140 –> 01:33:16,280
community, we realize how much more similar we are than different.

1445
01:33:16,500 –> 01:33:19,640
Right? You know, unfortunately,

1446
01:33:20,204 –> 01:33:23,885
with this, you know, maternalism that’s out

1447
01:33:23,885 –> 01:33:27,264
there right now, you know, if someone feels uncomfortable,

1448
01:33:27,970 –> 01:33:31,650
you know, we we wanna remove them from a situation as

1449
01:33:31,650 –> 01:33:35,410
opposed Tom, do you understand how your primitive brain that’s been

1450
01:33:35,410 –> 01:33:38,875
wired for 1000000000 of years works, it

1451
01:33:39,515 –> 01:33:43,275
you know, if something’s new, it automatically is on alert.

1452
01:33:43,275 –> 01:33:46,860
It doesn’t mean that new is bad. You know? So

1453
01:33:47,080 –> 01:33:50,780
push through and live with curiosity

1454
01:33:51,400 –> 01:33:55,179
about your fellow humans, and you may you’ll be pleasantly surprised.

1455
01:33:56,985 –> 01:33:59,565
I think I mean,

1456
01:34:00,905 –> 01:34:03,885
I I actually think humanity is really great. If,

1457
01:34:04,650 –> 01:34:08,330
you know, I’ve lived in all, yeah, all all

1458
01:34:08,330 –> 01:34:12,030
types of communities, you know, rural, urban, suburban,

1459
01:34:12,730 –> 01:34:16,554
you’re rich, poor, you know, diverse, not diverse. And I

1460
01:34:16,554 –> 01:34:20,395
find, you know, humans actually are really

1461
01:34:20,395 –> 01:34:24,090
decent. It’s our leaders who will tell us that

1462
01:34:24,090 –> 01:34:27,530
they’re not. And I remember the first time I went to Europe in

1463
01:34:27,530 –> 01:34:31,185
1994, I went to France, and I’ve been told that the French

1464
01:34:31,185 –> 01:34:34,945
were awful. And I was like, oh my god. They’re awesome. Like, they’re just like

1465
01:34:34,945 –> 01:34:38,700
you and me, and we’re not our government. And we need to, 1, remember, we’re

1466
01:34:38,700 –> 01:34:42,400
not our government. You know? I think we’re

1467
01:34:42,700 –> 01:34:46,375
too many countries and people like Israel.

1468
01:34:47,155 –> 01:34:50,994
The government is not necessarily representative of the people. We need to be

1469
01:34:50,994 –> 01:34:54,320
cognizant of that. I also

1470
01:34:55,740 –> 01:34:59,340
all all of my cultural references, you know, Bill Maher had a

1471
01:34:59,340 –> 01:35:02,614
guest on on Friday night that was saying yeah. That was,

1472
01:35:04,594 –> 01:35:07,894
the woman from The View is like, we just need people to be more educated.

1473
01:35:08,034 –> 01:35:10,730
And, yeah, and the guy, yeah, the guy,

1474
01:35:11,770 –> 01:35:14,989
was saying, well, how many movies and books can you have,

1475
01:35:15,610 –> 01:35:19,325
you know, about, like, the holocaust? Like, I

1476
01:35:19,325 –> 01:35:23,005
mean, it you we’ve had tons, and I think

1477
01:35:23,005 –> 01:35:26,770
what’s wrong what’s missing is the real root

1478
01:35:27,010 –> 01:35:30,850
cause is not being addressed. It’s the Marxist you know, when

1479
01:35:30,850 –> 01:35:34,310
I listen to a lot of my friends on the left talk about it,

1480
01:35:34,555 –> 01:35:36,735
they try to send it back to the right,

1481
01:35:38,635 –> 01:35:42,415
or, you know, or or they

1482
01:35:42,880 –> 01:35:45,780
divert to another conversation. They can’t Mhmm.

1483
01:35:46,240 –> 01:35:48,500
Fathom that they’re

1484
01:35:49,840 –> 01:35:53,335
that, you know, that traditional

1485
01:35:53,475 –> 01:35:57,075
liberals, which are great, has been infiltrated by these,

1486
01:35:57,075 –> 01:36:00,720
yeah, by Marxist extremes. And the reason that we’re

1487
01:36:00,720 –> 01:36:04,260
seeing, you know, the antisemitism,

1488
01:36:04,800 –> 01:36:06,500
it’s that, yeah, that

1489
01:36:08,775 –> 01:36:12,455
because I can’t the haves versus the have

1490
01:36:12,455 –> 01:36:15,850
nots. Mhmm. You know? So because they’re in

1491
01:36:15,850 –> 01:36:19,690
positions of power, you know, and because of

1492
01:36:19,690 –> 01:36:23,425
the communities that they have, because, you know, they tend to support their

1493
01:36:23,425 –> 01:36:26,945
families, value education, value hard work, you know,

1494
01:36:26,945 –> 01:36:29,204
instead of copying them

1495
01:36:30,679 –> 01:36:34,040
and essays, these are the the things that are necessary to be

1496
01:36:34,040 –> 01:36:37,500
successful, we want to bring the oppressors, yep,

1497
01:36:37,785 –> 01:36:41,465
the the successful down. Yeah. The oppressor versus

1498
01:36:41,465 –> 01:36:45,110
the oppressor. Yeah. The oppressor versus the oppressed. Yeah.

1499
01:36:45,190 –> 01:36:49,030
And that’s the Marxist ideology. And the fact that no one’s

1500
01:36:49,030 –> 01:36:52,605
talked about, you know, Stalin and

1501
01:36:52,605 –> 01:36:56,365
Mao for decades. They only talk about Hitler has

1502
01:36:56,365 –> 01:37:00,130
been you can’t underestimate the

1503
01:37:00,130 –> 01:37:02,950
power of rhetoric and the intentionality of it.

1504
01:37:04,610 –> 01:37:08,210
You know, look over here, not here. You know? Because

1505
01:37:08,210 –> 01:37:11,765
we’re here. You know? And so

1506
01:37:11,765 –> 01:37:15,225
actually understanding a lot of the root cause and pushing that out

1507
01:37:15,525 –> 01:37:19,309
just like the right pushes out the the lunatics on

1508
01:37:19,309 –> 01:37:22,989
the far right. But if you don’t understand some of the root

1509
01:37:22,989 –> 01:37:26,449
cause, and that you’ve been infiltrated

1510
01:37:27,835 –> 01:37:31,435
Mhmm. And willing to fight against you

1511
01:37:31,435 –> 01:37:34,955
know, fight your own. Like, the right voice fights its own. The

1512
01:37:34,955 –> 01:37:38,800
left rarely does. And you need to fight,

1513
01:37:39,100 –> 01:37:42,080
you know, to push the toxins out. But

1514
01:37:43,420 –> 01:37:47,125
So is is okay. So something occurs to me, Libby. I’m gonna

1515
01:37:47,125 –> 01:37:50,905
ask you this question here. I’m gonna direct this directly to you. Jeff.

1516
01:37:51,205 –> 01:37:54,969
One second. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. I’ll hold on to my questions then.

1517
01:37:55,030 –> 01:37:58,710
So so the, it sounds like peer

1518
01:37:58,710 –> 01:38:02,469
review. And so what I’m listening to in this there’s okay.

1519
01:38:02,469 –> 01:38:06,215
Okay. And there’s who’s the teacher in Portland State that just

1520
01:38:06,215 –> 01:38:09,975
did the fake paper? And then What’s his name? Yeah.

1521
01:38:09,975 –> 01:38:13,810
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It is just like peer review. It is. But

1522
01:38:13,890 –> 01:38:17,650
and so we see what happened with peer review. So what is the intervention to

1523
01:38:17,650 –> 01:38:20,150
put in place for the thing that was the safeguard?

1524
01:38:22,435 –> 01:38:25,955
I don’t know. It’s the same, like, you know, FDA, people, yeah, people just

1525
01:38:25,955 –> 01:38:29,655
quit who weren’t aligned with what yeah. With, yeah, the vaccine

1526
01:38:29,795 –> 01:38:32,360
mandated. You know,

1527
01:38:33,380 –> 01:38:36,980
corporate, you know, many of the reasons a lot of us opt out

1528
01:38:36,980 –> 01:38:40,785
of senior positions in corporate is because it’s

1529
01:38:40,785 –> 01:38:44,545
just group think. You know? It’s not about learning and creating and

1530
01:38:44,545 –> 01:38:48,245
building. It’s about, you know, maintaining

1531
01:38:50,030 –> 01:38:53,730
maintaining status, maintaining, maintaining income.

1532
01:38:53,870 –> 01:38:57,425
It’s not about building or creating. And

1533
01:38:57,425 –> 01:39:01,125
if you are a change agent, you will be ejected.

1534
01:39:01,425 –> 01:39:05,105
Right? You know? So the question is, how do

1535
01:39:05,105 –> 01:39:08,560
you change it? And I another theme,

1536
01:39:09,180 –> 01:39:12,940
you gotta build it from the outside in. You like, turning the

1537
01:39:13,180 –> 01:39:16,675
like, changing the institutions is just is

1538
01:39:16,675 –> 01:39:20,275
incredibly challenging. You have to do it outside in with

1539
01:39:20,275 –> 01:39:24,055
different different models. So

1540
01:39:24,720 –> 01:39:28,560
the question that occurs Like, 3rd parties. 3rd party. Yeah. Well, you well, you

1541
01:39:28,640 –> 01:39:32,080
okay. So you so you Or small businesses. It you know,

1542
01:39:32,080 –> 01:39:35,885
local community development. Alternative media landscapes,

1543
01:39:36,025 –> 01:39:39,225
like all of these all these kinds of Yeah. Going out on the long tail,

1544
01:39:39,225 –> 01:39:42,985
which, you know, we’ve knocked the Internet a couple of times here today,

1545
01:39:42,985 –> 01:39:46,560
rightly so, And we’ve knocked social media, rightly so,

1546
01:39:46,860 –> 01:39:50,400
but the benefits or the, the, the, the upside

1547
01:39:50,780 –> 01:39:54,065
of those tools and they are tools. And we’ll talk about tools here in just

1548
01:39:54,065 –> 01:39:57,565
a moment when we turn the corner. But the upside of utilizing

1549
01:39:57,864 –> 01:40:01,545
using those tools is you are able to create an alternative landscape and

1550
01:40:01,586 –> 01:40:05,219
literature. Alternative media culture, or

1551
01:40:05,219 –> 01:40:08,599
even an alternative, an alternative

1552
01:40:08,659 –> 01:40:12,035
production culture. You talk about antisemitism

1553
01:40:13,375 –> 01:40:17,135
being this thing on the left, and this is directed to

1554
01:40:17,135 –> 01:40:20,830
Libby is I think you probably heard of this concept and even Ryan sort of

1555
01:40:20,830 –> 01:40:24,050
tapped into it with the idea of peer review. Peer review,

1556
01:40:24,590 –> 01:40:28,135
status, income, These are all

1557
01:40:28,135 –> 01:40:31,574
things that are, quite frankly, to borrow from Rob

1558
01:40:31,574 –> 01:40:35,360
Henderson, luxury beliefs. Right. And it’s

1559
01:40:35,360 –> 01:40:38,240
not to say that people who are in the middle class or the working class

1560
01:40:38,240 –> 01:40:41,600
or poor, poor folks don’t have these systems too. They’re just set up

1561
01:40:41,600 –> 01:40:45,155
differently. Okay. Antisemitism has always

1562
01:40:45,155 –> 01:40:48,995
been hot among the academic elite, particularly the

1563
01:40:48,995 –> 01:40:52,750
academic writers. The academic elite that run Princeton Princeton and Harvard. I

1564
01:40:52,750 –> 01:40:56,430
mean, initially, those elite Ivy League universities were designed to keep

1565
01:40:56,430 –> 01:41:00,190
Jews out. And it was only after World War 2 that Jewish people

1566
01:41:00,190 –> 01:41:03,735
were allowed in. So the idea that there’s this Zionist conspiracy

1567
01:41:04,755 –> 01:41:08,355
in the Ivy League that’s spreading out Tom. Like, let’s just

1568
01:41:08,355 –> 01:41:12,020
stop it. Okay? Because those

1569
01:41:12,020 –> 01:41:15,159
systems were designed by WASPs,

1570
01:41:16,179 –> 01:41:19,880
white Anglo Saxon protestants Tom keep Jews out.

1571
01:41:20,385 –> 01:41:23,985
Okay? Specifically, Jews and and and blacks and women. Those are the 3

1572
01:41:23,985 –> 01:41:27,505
big categories. And then Catholic, if you wanted a 4th category thrown in there just

1573
01:41:27,505 –> 01:41:31,250
for good measure. Okay. I know the history. I’ve actually read

1574
01:41:31,250 –> 01:41:32,710
the books. Okay.

1575
01:41:36,555 –> 01:41:39,755
History doesn’t repeat itself but it does it does,

1576
01:41:40,155 –> 01:41:43,995
echo or rhyme. And so are we

1577
01:41:43,995 –> 01:41:47,620
just now at a space where this is now being taken

1578
01:41:47,620 –> 01:41:51,460
up now? This antisemitism, this new strain is just being

1579
01:41:51,460 –> 01:41:55,265
taken up as just another luxury belief by the elites, by

1580
01:41:55,265 –> 01:41:56,885
the people who run things.

1581
01:41:58,864 –> 01:42:01,685
Because it’s not you’d I don’t see people protesting

1582
01:42:03,300 –> 01:42:06,820
the Israelis doing whatever it is they’re doing in

1583
01:42:06,820 –> 01:42:10,260
Gaza. I don’t see some middle class

1584
01:42:10,260 –> 01:42:13,844
kid from, you know, some state

1585
01:42:13,844 –> 01:42:17,364
school protesting this. This is not the people who I hear yelling about

1586
01:42:17,364 –> 01:42:20,585
this. I’m instead hearing about this from some

1587
01:42:21,150 –> 01:42:24,930
undergraduate whose parents spent $250,000 on them to go to Columbia.

1588
01:42:26,750 –> 01:42:30,295
Because they don’t live in the real world. Right. You

1589
01:42:30,515 –> 01:42:33,395
know? Yeah. Like, it’s the same thing of, you know, why

1590
01:42:33,955 –> 01:42:37,770
Weisel, you know, survived the camps. He

1591
01:42:37,770 –> 01:42:41,450
just pushed through. He didn’t have time Mhmm. To think

1592
01:42:41,610 –> 01:42:45,425
he’s just surviving. Right? Right. They have time to think about

1593
01:42:45,425 –> 01:42:49,205
and over intellectualize. Like, I’ve lived in these intellectual circles,

1594
01:42:49,985 –> 01:42:53,179
and, you know, they think their thoughts are real

1595
01:42:54,248 –> 01:42:56,840
book because they thought it, and they can think it quickly, and they can make

1596
01:42:56,840 –> 01:43:00,139
correlations. They think it’s real. They’re so removed from,

1597
01:43:00,425 –> 01:43:03,485
you know, working with your hands, working close you

1598
01:43:04,825 –> 01:43:08,585
know, it Tom them, it’s menial and not meaningful. Like, the intellectual

1599
01:43:08,585 –> 01:43:12,210
masturbation is, you know, masturbation is, you know, is what brings

1600
01:43:12,210 –> 01:43:16,050
turning. But it’s also where all civilizations

1601
01:43:16,670 –> 01:43:20,365
find the their deaths, in the othering.

1602
01:43:20,365 –> 01:43:23,105
Like, just think of the French revolution, same thing.

1603
01:43:24,365 –> 01:43:28,100
Bolsheviks. Why is it in the

1604
01:43:28,100 –> 01:43:31,619
intellectual? Because they need to find something to solve for, and they just

1605
01:43:32,340 –> 01:43:35,935
I think they’re guilt I personally believe, if you’re asking me,

1606
01:43:36,155 –> 01:43:38,255
I personally believe that

1607
01:43:41,330 –> 01:43:44,310
the ease with which people had Tom material gain

1608
01:43:45,010 –> 01:43:48,850
leads to a concomitant decline in spiritual appreciation of

1609
01:43:48,850 –> 01:43:52,645
that gain. So the more you carry work for it or earn it, and

1610
01:43:52,645 –> 01:43:56,005
there’s meaning and and that Right. It’s the meaning in the

1611
01:43:56,005 –> 01:43:59,850
work. Right. Well, you see this in the 1st generation. Okay? So anybody family that’s

1612
01:43:59,850 –> 01:44:03,450
wealthy in America, the very first generation, you you know this,

1613
01:44:03,450 –> 01:44:06,830
Libby. Yeah. And, Ryan, you’ve seen this. Right. They are Generations.

1614
01:44:07,145 –> 01:44:10,905
Right. Short sleeves are short sleeves in 3 generations. Sleeves. That’s right.

1615
01:44:10,905 –> 01:44:13,645
Yeah. And so that first generation is religious.

1616
01:44:15,210 –> 01:44:18,510
Sometimes shockingly evangelist

1617
01:44:18,730 –> 01:44:22,465
evangelistic. They’re they’re they’re, you know, they’re the people who,

1618
01:44:22,465 –> 01:44:26,185
like, they go to church. They make the money. They align everything. Boom. They’re ready

1619
01:44:26,185 –> 01:44:29,985
to go. Right? Their kids come in, and their

1620
01:44:29,985 –> 01:44:33,810
kids are, to my point earlier, about a bad copy of

1621
01:44:33,810 –> 01:44:37,590
a copy. They’re a bad copy of the original.

1622
01:44:38,875 –> 01:44:42,474
Sometimes they keep the thing going. Most times they don’t. And

1623
01:44:42,474 –> 01:44:45,775
then by the time their kids come around, that 3rd generation,

1624
01:44:46,235 –> 01:44:49,890
it’s all gone. Right? The money has been spent on wide

1625
01:44:49,890 –> 01:44:53,730
women’s song. We already mentioned cocaine. Don’t have mentioned that again. But it’s

1626
01:44:53,730 –> 01:44:57,385
already been blown through. Right? And now that 3rd generation is

1627
01:44:57,385 –> 01:45:01,085
back Tom, starting from scratch,

1628
01:45:01,304 –> 01:45:04,605
right, just to claw up something out of existence. Okay.

1629
01:45:05,300 –> 01:45:09,140
The really wealthy families, though, the ones who manage to get

1630
01:45:09,140 –> 01:45:12,760
past that 3rd, in some cases, that 4th or 5th generation of wealth

1631
01:45:12,820 –> 01:45:16,445
transfer. Right? I think the

1632
01:45:16,445 –> 01:45:19,485
reason that those and that’s who we’re talking about. That’s what we mean as elites.

1633
01:45:19,485 –> 01:45:23,245
I think the reason why those folks are captured by these luxury ideas is because

1634
01:45:23,325 –> 01:45:26,640
and I I I I don’t think it’s any more complicated than this. Sometimes

1635
01:45:26,700 –> 01:45:30,480
Occam’s razor is correct, and this is an Occam’s razor situation.

1636
01:45:30,940 –> 01:45:32,720
I think those people are just bored.

1637
01:45:35,025 –> 01:45:38,625
I think they’re bored. They’re bored, and they lack creativity. They have

1638
01:45:38,625 –> 01:45:42,085
no they have no purpose. I mean, I remember at the beginning of the pandemic,

1639
01:45:42,385 –> 01:45:45,520
like, you have people not working. I’m like, there’s

1640
01:45:46,000 –> 01:45:48,660
especially with small businesses being,

1641
01:45:50,640 –> 01:45:54,415
killed. It’s like there’s dignity and work. People don’t want,

1642
01:45:54,415 –> 01:45:58,255
like, the whole concept of UBI. No. Yeah. People

1643
01:45:58,255 –> 01:46:01,954
want there’s dignity and work. You know? I

1644
01:46:03,680 –> 01:46:07,040
and I’m gonna need something in it. Yeah. With that shirt sleeves to shirt

1645
01:46:07,040 –> 01:46:10,720
sleeves, what happens with the Jesan generation is they realize the money

1646
01:46:10,720 –> 01:46:13,565
doesn’t fill you. It doesn’t complete you. Right? Right.

1647
01:46:14,824 –> 01:46:18,185
You know, but they don’t know, but they’re told work isn’t

1648
01:46:18,265 –> 01:46:21,800
is, like, where’s this thing? I also think this is maybe a

1649
01:46:21,800 –> 01:46:25,340
Belmar, another cultural reference. But

1650
01:46:26,385 –> 01:46:29,905
concept of, like, where did the or maybe it was Vivek. I think it was

1651
01:46:29,905 –> 01:46:33,505
Vivek Ramaswami on Sean, Sean Ryan. And he was

1652
01:46:33,505 –> 01:46:37,060
talking about the concept of

1653
01:46:37,060 –> 01:46:40,900
retirement and how we’re told, you know,

1654
01:46:40,900 –> 01:46:44,395
that you just need to work until you retire. Right? And but

1655
01:46:44,395 –> 01:46:48,155
most up until 21st century, people

1656
01:46:48,155 –> 01:46:51,889
didn’t retire. They worked their full lives. Right. Like,

1657
01:46:51,889 –> 01:46:55,650
when you retire, then what? Like, live on the beach? Yeah.

1658
01:46:55,650 –> 01:46:59,255
That’s fun for a little while, but there’s

1659
01:46:59,255 –> 01:47:02,935
dignity in producing. So I do think there’s something about the concept of

1660
01:47:02,935 –> 01:47:06,295
they’re bored. Well and and I also And then they’re and then they’re

1661
01:47:06,295 –> 01:47:09,719
guilty about it and taking it out on you. Right.

1662
01:47:09,719 –> 01:47:13,480
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. They’re bored. Fourth actually having meaning in

1663
01:47:13,480 –> 01:47:17,255
your life. They’re bored. They’re full of resentment. They have a weird form

1664
01:47:17,255 –> 01:47:20,935
of envy. Like, we’ve talked about this on the podcast fourth, how

1665
01:47:21,095 –> 01:47:24,535
and I actually wrote a post about this recently on, like, my Facebook page

1666
01:47:24,535 –> 01:47:28,290
somewhere, about how fathers are responsible for for keeping

1667
01:47:28,290 –> 01:47:31,970
the envy machine in their children’s hearts turned off. Because once that

1668
01:47:31,970 –> 01:47:35,515
is turned on, then anybody can tell them anything. And and the envy

1669
01:47:35,515 –> 01:47:39,355
machine gets turned on from social media. You know? It gets turned

1670
01:47:39,355 –> 01:47:43,115
on from, getting into the comparison trap with other

1671
01:47:43,115 –> 01:47:46,940
people’s highlight reels. You know? The best thing you could do if

1672
01:47:46,940 –> 01:47:50,640
you’re a 5th generation family with wealth is to

1673
01:47:50,780 –> 01:47:54,605
get that kid who’s got wealth and put him to work

1674
01:47:54,605 –> 01:47:58,125
at, like, a lumber yard or something. Like, that’s the best thing you could do

1675
01:47:58,125 –> 01:48:01,885
for that kid when they’re, like, 14. But but and guess what? You

1676
01:48:01,885 –> 01:48:05,070
don’t get to go to the lumber yard in your Rolls Royce. You get to

1677
01:48:05,070 –> 01:48:08,750
go to the lumber yard on your bike, and you’re gonna go work. Right?

1678
01:48:10,110 –> 01:48:13,205
And I do think there are some families who understand that. I do think there

1679
01:48:13,205 –> 01:48:16,565
are some families who get that, but I think that they are in unsexy fields.

1680
01:48:16,565 –> 01:48:19,969
And so I think the the less sexy the field is where you make money

1681
01:48:20,290 –> 01:48:23,250
like, I met a I met a guy the other day who’s, who’s a coal

1682
01:48:23,250 –> 01:48:26,870
miner. Right? I never actually met a coal miner in real life.

1683
01:48:27,355 –> 01:48:31,035
And he’s telling me all these great stories about coal mining in the

1684
01:48:31,035 –> 01:48:34,875
mountains and all of this. And, you know, he was like, this is really

1685
01:48:34,875 –> 01:48:38,360
hard book. And he’s he’s like, have you ever thought about being a coal miner?

1686
01:48:38,360 –> 01:48:41,240
And I said, that is not something that was ever offered to me as an

1687
01:48:41,240 –> 01:48:44,760
option on the plate. I mean, I knew people

1688
01:48:45,320 –> 01:48:49,055
coal miner? Right. Like, I knew people who did it. I now have met people

1689
01:48:49,055 –> 01:48:51,695
who have done it. I met somebody who has done it. But that was not

1690
01:48:51,695 –> 01:48:54,680
something and it’s probably a little late for me. I’m in my forties now. You

1691
01:48:54,840 –> 01:48:58,520
probably don’t want me crawling around underground turning to dig out bit Tom much

1692
01:48:58,520 –> 01:49:02,200
coal. It’s probably not something you Amazing. In 2024, someone

1693
01:49:02,200 –> 01:49:05,735
asked that question. That’s awesome. It’s but right. But it’s an awesome

1694
01:49:05,735 –> 01:49:09,335
question. Right? And so to overcome those

1695
01:49:09,335 –> 01:49:13,150
luxury beliefs, we have to give people, Libby, to your point, I think

1696
01:49:13,150 –> 01:49:16,830
material not only material meaning, but we and we don’t understand

1697
01:49:16,830 –> 01:49:20,350
how material meaning and and and psychological meaning and spiritual meaning all linked together. We

1698
01:49:20,350 –> 01:49:24,025
have no clue. We’re just beginning to pull apart consciousness. We we really don’t understand.

1699
01:49:24,644 –> 01:49:28,425
But all those things do link together somehow, and they create the fundamental

1700
01:49:28,485 –> 01:49:32,210
structure of reality, the Dyson sphere of reality that we’re all trying

1701
01:49:32,210 –> 01:49:36,010
to hold together out here. Ryan, any thoughts before

1702
01:49:36,010 –> 01:49:37,190
I turn the corner here?

1703
01:49:40,054 –> 01:49:41,915
No. I don’t think so.

1704
01:49:43,574 –> 01:49:47,014
Alright. It’s this this this this was this

1705
01:49:47,175 –> 01:49:51,000
well, yeah. I do. Now that I looked out of

1706
01:49:51,000 –> 01:49:54,760
my notes. Talking talking about talking about

1707
01:49:54,760 –> 01:49:58,259
the, the writing, the simple writing. So just just

1708
01:49:58,259 –> 01:50:01,965
essays things that are that readers such an

1709
01:50:01,965 –> 01:50:05,260
image and are so simple and are really, really beautiful. He describes

1710
01:50:05,560 –> 01:50:09,400
someone as having an assassin’s face. Mhmm. Now I don’t know an

1711
01:50:09,400 –> 01:50:12,945
assassin. Do you know any assassins? No. Do you know what that

1712
01:50:12,945 –> 01:50:16,625
means? Do you do you know an assassin’s face when you

1713
01:50:16,625 –> 01:50:20,100
see one, though? You know? Our very

1714
01:50:20,160 –> 01:50:23,760
skin was aching. Mhmm. I

1715
01:50:23,760 –> 01:50:27,280
can’t, like that’s a that’s a pretty that’s pretty

1716
01:50:27,280 –> 01:50:29,275
dark if your,

1717
01:50:31,175 –> 01:50:34,935
your skin is aching. A face not unlike a death

1718
01:50:34,935 –> 01:50:38,140
mask is how he described the

1719
01:50:39,800 –> 01:50:43,640
dentist. And there was a weird compassion. And so I wrote down

1720
01:50:43,640 –> 01:50:47,225
the human condition also. And

1721
01:50:47,225 –> 01:50:50,985
so when there’s a he essays, I don’t feel well. I don’t feel

1722
01:50:50,985 –> 01:50:54,448
well. There’s something in the dentist that essays,

1723
01:50:54,670 –> 01:50:58,450
yeah. You know what? He sees the kid as a kid fourth he sees someone

1724
01:50:58,590 –> 01:51:02,430
he may see him for what he is at that moment. Like, someone stuck in

1725
01:51:02,430 –> 01:51:06,095
this horrible position with a gold tooth, and he

1726
01:51:06,095 –> 01:51:09,855
doesn’t feel well. And so you know what? If he says he feels crappy, I

1727
01:51:09,855 –> 01:51:13,155
don’t wanna make him feel any crappier. Mhmm. And that’s

1728
01:51:14,239 –> 01:51:17,840
that’s kind of like a a ray of light in the in the

1729
01:51:17,840 –> 01:51:21,540
darkness. And I’m sure that wasn’t the dentist’s intention,

1730
01:51:21,835 –> 01:51:25,594
but it’s almost like like Libby saying, turning about,

1731
01:51:25,594 –> 01:51:29,435
like, life’s purpose is to continue can city living. That’s why you pick

1732
01:51:29,435 –> 01:51:33,020
up a board and you’ll see, like, a tiny piece of grass growing, and it

1733
01:51:33,020 –> 01:51:36,699
hasn’t seen light in forever. So, yeah, I that’s

1734
01:51:36,699 –> 01:51:40,545
just kind of a thing. So that’s my, I’d

1735
01:51:40,545 –> 01:51:44,385
say, final thoughts. Alright. Well, back

1736
01:51:44,385 –> 01:51:47,365
to the book. Podcast little bit here.

1737
01:51:48,220 –> 01:51:51,760
Last piece of night here by Eli Weisel. So we’re gonna turn the corner.

1738
01:51:52,060 –> 01:51:55,192
We’re gonna start talking about solutions to problems because on this podcast,

1739
01:51:55,820 –> 01:51:59,405
this year and and probably next year too, because we’re we’re

1740
01:52:00,665 –> 01:52:04,345
we’re opening up a can of worms on a lot of big problems, not just

1741
01:52:04,345 –> 01:52:07,970
on this episode, but on on other episodes. And so we’re going to talk

1742
01:52:07,970 –> 01:52:11,570
about solutions to problems that Eli

1743
01:52:11,570 –> 01:52:15,385
Weisel has postulated to us in night and

1744
01:52:15,385 –> 01:52:19,005
that challenge us as leaders. So back to the book.

1745
01:52:19,865 –> 01:52:23,600
The summer was coming to an end. The Jewish year was almost over on the

1746
01:52:23,600 –> 01:52:27,280
eve of Rosh Hashanah, the last day of that cursed year, the entire

1747
01:52:27,280 –> 01:52:30,480
camp was agitated and every one of us felt attention after all this was a

1748
01:52:30,480 –> 01:52:34,215
day, unlike all others, the last day of the year. The word last has

1749
01:52:34,215 –> 01:52:37,915
an odd ring to it. What if it really were the last day?

1750
01:52:39,160 –> 01:52:42,840
The evening meal was distributed and especially thick soup, but nobody touched it. We

1751
01:52:42,840 –> 01:52:45,420
waited to we wanted to wait until after prayer.

1752
01:52:46,715 –> 01:52:50,554
On the apple plots surrounded by electrified barbed wire, thousands of Jews,

1753
01:52:50,554 –> 01:52:54,239
anguish on their faces, gathered in silence. Night was falling

1754
01:52:54,239 –> 01:52:58,079
rapidly, and more and more prisoners kept coming from every book, suddenly able to overcome

1755
01:52:58,079 –> 01:53:01,460
time and space to will both into submission.

1756
01:53:03,135 –> 01:53:06,895
Who what are you, my god? I thought angrily. How do you

1757
01:53:06,895 –> 01:53:10,495
compare to the stricken mass gathered to affirm to you their faith, their

1758
01:53:10,495 –> 01:53:14,340
anger, their defiance? What does your grandeur mean, master of the

1759
01:53:14,340 –> 01:53:18,020
universe, in the face of all this cowardice, this decay, and this misery? Why do

1760
01:53:18,020 –> 01:53:21,400
you go on troubling these poor people’s wounded minds, their ailing bodies?

1761
01:53:23,114 –> 01:53:26,655
Some 10,000 men had come to participate in a solemn service including

1762
01:53:26,715 –> 01:53:30,074
the Blocoteste, the kapos, all bureaucrats in the service of

1763
01:53:30,074 –> 01:53:33,800
death. Blessed be the Almighty. The voice of

1764
01:53:33,800 –> 01:53:37,240
the officiating inmate had just become audible. At first I thought it was the wind.

1765
01:53:37,240 –> 01:53:40,914
Blessed be God’s name. Thousands of lips repeated the benediction

1766
01:53:40,914 –> 01:53:44,695
bent over like trees in a storm. Blessed be God’s name?

1767
01:53:45,554 –> 01:53:48,775
Why but why would I bless him? Every fiber in me rebelled

1768
01:53:49,540 –> 01:53:53,220
because he caused thousands of children to burn in his mass graves, because he kept

1769
01:53:53,220 –> 01:53:56,760
6 crematoria working day and night including Sabbath and the holy days,

1770
01:53:56,865 –> 01:53:59,465
Auschwitz, Birkenau, Buna, and so many other factories of death. How could I say to

1771
01:53:59,465 –> 01:54:00,325
him blessed be thou almighty master of the universe

1772
01:54:05,090 –> 01:54:08,770
who chose us among all nations to be tortured day and night Tom watch as

1773
01:54:08,770 –> 01:54:12,610
our fathers, our mothers, our brothers ended up in the furnaces? Praised be thy

1774
01:54:12,610 –> 01:54:16,195
holy name for having chosen us to be slaughtered in thine out on thine

1775
01:54:16,195 –> 01:54:20,035
altar. I listened as the inmate’s voice rose. It

1776
01:54:20,035 –> 01:54:23,850
was powerful yet broken amid the weeping, the sobbing, the sighing of the entire,

1777
01:54:24,630 –> 01:54:28,250
congregation. All the earth and the universes are gods.

1778
01:54:29,545 –> 01:54:32,824
He kept pausing as though he lacked the strength to uncover the meaning beneath the

1779
01:54:32,824 –> 01:54:36,665
text. The melody was stifled in his throat. And I,

1780
01:54:36,665 –> 01:54:40,230
the former mystic, was was thinking, yes, man is stronger, greater than God. When Adam

1781
01:54:40,230 –> 01:54:43,830
and Eve deceive you, you chased them from paradise. When you were displeased by

1782
01:54:43,830 –> 01:54:47,605
Noah’s generations, you brought down the flood. When Sodom lost your favor, you

1783
01:54:47,605 –> 01:54:51,364
caused the heavens to rain down fire and damnation. But look at these men

1784
01:54:51,364 –> 01:54:54,804
whom you have betrayed, allowing them to be tortured, slaughtered, gas, and burned. What did

1785
01:54:54,804 –> 01:54:57,700
they do? They pray before you. They praise your name.

1786
01:54:58,560 –> 01:55:01,140
All of creation bears witness to the greatness of God.

1787
01:55:03,005 –> 01:55:06,445
In days gone by, Rosh Hashanah had dominated my life. I knew that my sins

1788
01:55:06,445 –> 01:55:10,125
grieved the almighty, and so I pleaded for forgiveness. In those days, I fully

1789
01:55:10,125 –> 01:55:13,590
believed that the salvation of the world depended on every one of my deeds and

1790
01:55:13,590 –> 01:55:17,430
every one of my prayers. But now I no longer

1791
01:55:17,430 –> 01:55:21,105
plead for anything. I was no longer able to lament. On

1792
01:55:21,105 –> 01:55:24,945
the contrary, I felt very strong. I was the accuser, God the Accused. My

1793
01:55:24,945 –> 01:55:28,224
eyes had opened and I was alone, terrible alone to the world without God, without

1794
01:55:28,224 –> 01:55:31,860
man, without love or mercy. I was nothing but ashes now, but I felt

1795
01:55:31,860 –> 01:55:35,140
myself to be stronger than this almighty to whom my life had been bound for

1796
01:55:35,140 –> 01:55:38,340
so long. In the midst of these men assembled for prayer, I felt like an

1797
01:55:38,340 –> 01:55:41,695
observer, a stranger. The service ended with

1798
01:55:41,695 –> 01:55:45,534
Kaddish, each of us reciting Kaddish for his parents, for his children, and

1799
01:55:45,534 –> 01:55:49,110
for himself. We remained

1800
01:55:49,110 –> 01:55:52,390
standing in the awful books for a long time, unable to detach ourselves from this

1801
01:55:52,390 –> 01:55:56,230
surreal moment. Then came the time to go to sleep, and slowly the inmates returned

1802
01:55:56,230 –> 01:55:59,645
to their blocks. I thought I heard them wishing each other a happy

1803
01:55:59,645 –> 01:56:03,324
new year. I ran to look for my

1804
01:56:03,324 –> 01:56:05,804
father. At the same time, I was afraid of having to wish him a happy

1805
01:56:05,804 –> 01:56:09,650
new year in which I no longer believed. He was leaning against the

1806
01:56:09,650 –> 01:56:13,330
wall, bent shoulders sagging as if under a heavy load. I went up to him,

1807
01:56:13,330 –> 01:56:16,295
took his hand, and kissed it. I felt a tear on my hand. Whose was

1808
01:56:16,295 –> 01:56:19,975
it? Mine? His? I said nothing, nor did he. Never before had we

1809
01:56:19,975 –> 01:56:23,590
understood each other so clearly. The sound of the

1810
01:56:23,590 –> 01:56:27,430
bell brought us back to reality. We had to go to bed. We came back

1811
01:56:27,430 –> 01:56:31,270
from very far away. I looked at my father’s face, trying

1812
01:56:31,270 –> 01:56:34,495
to glimpse a smile or something like it on his stricken face, but there was

1813
01:56:34,495 –> 01:56:38,035
nothing. Not the shadow of an expression. Defeat.

1814
01:56:40,290 –> 01:56:44,130
Yom Kippur, the day of atonement, should we feast? The question was hotly debated. To

1815
01:56:44,130 –> 01:56:47,625
fast could mean a more certain or rapid death. In this place, we were

1816
01:56:47,625 –> 01:56:51,465
always fasting. It was Yom Kippur year round. But

1817
01:56:51,465 –> 01:56:54,505
there were those who said we should fast precisely because it was dangerous to do

1818
01:56:54,505 –> 01:56:58,119
so. We needed to show God that even here, locked in hell, we were capable

1819
01:56:58,119 –> 01:57:01,559
of singing his praises. I did not

1820
01:57:01,559 –> 01:57:05,125
fast. First of all, to please my father who had forbidden me to do

1821
01:57:05,125 –> 01:57:08,805
so. And then there was no longer any reason for me to fast. I no

1822
01:57:08,805 –> 01:57:12,510
longer accepted God’s silence. As I swallowed

1823
01:57:12,570 –> 01:57:16,030
my ration of soup, I turned that act into a symbol of rebellion,

1824
01:57:16,490 –> 01:57:20,324
of protest against him. And I nibbled on my crust

1825
01:57:20,324 –> 01:57:23,625
of bread. Deep inside me,

1826
01:57:24,965 –> 01:57:28,130
I felt a great void opening.

1827
01:57:31,230 –> 01:57:31,630
God,

1828
01:57:35,425 –> 01:57:39,105
There’s a book called Case for Life. Yes. Go ahead, Case for Life. I was

1829
01:57:39,105 –> 01:57:41,125
gonna bring that up. Yeah. Go ahead. And

1830
01:57:42,870 –> 01:57:46,710
and I was readers, I was working at a coffee shop, and this couple was

1831
01:57:46,710 –> 01:57:50,535
sitting outside. Oh, there’s 2 dude yeah. There’s couple sitting outside. And this guy,

1832
01:57:50,535 –> 01:57:53,975
Mike, who helped me buy my car, and he was a devout Christian. You know?

1833
01:57:53,975 –> 01:57:57,750
Mhmm. And, he was like, oh, you’re reading that book. It wasn’t a

1834
01:57:57,750 –> 01:58:00,570
couple. It was just him. You’re reading that book? I said, yeah. He goes, so

1835
01:58:01,110 –> 01:58:04,010
it it proved to exist. And I was like, doesn’t matter.

1836
01:58:04,949 –> 01:58:06,555
And And he said, what do you mean? I said,

1837
01:58:08,855 –> 01:58:12,215
like, if someone proves that he didn’t, I’m not gonna, like, kill

1838
01:58:12,215 –> 01:58:15,890
you because now it’s you know what I mean? Like

1839
01:58:16,050 –> 01:58:18,310
Yeah. So the the

1840
01:58:19,410 –> 01:58:23,175
something to relay

1841
01:58:23,255 –> 01:58:27,015
any a a positive it’s like the intention and the

1842
01:58:27,015 –> 01:58:30,535
practice is the intention to distract from

1843
01:58:30,535 –> 01:58:33,720
whatever the brain is currently

1844
01:58:34,900 –> 01:58:38,360
pressed up against in order to, like, rewire

1845
01:58:40,135 –> 01:58:43,755
it in order to, like, safeguard through uncompromisable

1846
01:58:44,135 –> 01:58:45,355
situations, essentially.

1847
01:58:48,140 –> 01:58:51,980
Well and and Waisel hits on something that, Solzhenitsyn hit

1848
01:58:51,980 –> 01:58:55,680
on at the Gulag Archipelago, where he talked about how

1849
01:58:56,085 –> 01:58:59,877
there were people who went into the Gulag as rock Libby

1850
01:59:00,645 –> 01:59:04,264
Eastern Orthodox Christians in Russia. And they came out

1851
01:59:05,200 –> 01:59:08,800
to paraphrase from while not to paraphrase, but to quote from Weisel with a

1852
01:59:08,800 –> 01:59:12,400
great void that had opened up inside of them because of the things they had

1853
01:59:12,400 –> 01:59:15,005
seen. And then there were people who

1854
01:59:16,505 –> 01:59:19,945
I would, I would, I would maybe categorize them as Sam

1855
01:59:19,945 –> 01:59:23,389
Harris, atheists, you know, because it’s cool and intellectual.

1856
01:59:23,530 –> 01:59:27,290
And to be atheistic now, because it’s easy and comfortable, it

1857
01:59:27,290 –> 01:59:31,055
doesn’t cost you anything other than maybe a little bit of social

1858
01:59:31,055 –> 01:59:34,755
approbation from certain geographic sectors of the country who you don’t care about anyway.

1859
01:59:34,815 –> 01:59:38,150
So what the hell do you care? You get all the right claps from all

1860
01:59:38,150 –> 01:59:41,610
the right people, so it’s easy, but those people went into the Gulag

1861
01:59:42,550 –> 01:59:45,610
and some of them were true believers in Marxism. Speaking of that,

1862
01:59:46,655 –> 01:59:49,955
and they wound up actually coming out,

1863
01:59:50,094 –> 01:59:53,554
believing in God. And so

1864
01:59:56,120 –> 01:59:59,880
Weisel is onto something here. Like, there’s a journey, right, that he

1865
01:59:59,880 –> 02:00:03,260
went on. And I think

1866
02:00:05,835 –> 02:00:09,595
I think about this as a person who tries every

1867
02:00:09,595 –> 02:00:12,395
day to be the best Christian that I can be. And most days I miss

1868
02:00:12,395 –> 02:00:15,810
the mark. Most days I fall into Amartya, which is sin.

1869
02:00:16,350 –> 02:00:19,870
I miss the mark. It’s an archery term. That’s all sin

1870
02:00:19,870 –> 02:00:22,690
means. And

1871
02:00:23,995 –> 02:00:27,455
just because and this is the point of Jesus.

1872
02:00:27,675 –> 02:00:31,135
Just because you fall into sin doesn’t mean that god has forgotten you.

1873
02:00:32,540 –> 02:00:36,300
It doesn’t mean that god has stopped talking. It

1874
02:00:36,300 –> 02:00:39,665
just means that the the void or the the the

1875
02:00:39,665 –> 02:00:43,505
gap, the chasm between you and him is is

1876
02:00:43,505 –> 02:00:46,790
is or you and it if we wanna frame it without being

1877
02:00:47,030 –> 02:00:50,870
without gendering it in our era, is

1878
02:00:50,870 –> 02:00:54,650
wide. Right? The void is wide between you and being.

1879
02:00:57,895 –> 02:01:01,575
And so I read that section right there and it struck me that out of

1880
02:01:01,734 –> 02:01:05,360
Libby talks about the book, you know, bringing her to tears. That part right

1881
02:01:05,360 –> 02:01:08,660
there, that entire section right there struck me so deeply.

1882
02:01:10,960 –> 02:01:13,620
Judaism is a fascinating religion.

1883
02:01:14,865 –> 02:01:18,625
And and the the the day of having having days for

1884
02:01:18,625 –> 02:01:21,525
atonement. Right? Having days for New Years.

1885
02:01:23,900 –> 02:01:27,340
I love that idea, writers? Where there’s going to be a

1886
02:01:27,340 –> 02:01:31,099
day where you’re going to like you’re going to talk about all the ways you’ve

1887
02:01:31,099 –> 02:01:34,825
missed the mark. You’re gonna ask for forgiveness. And yes,

1888
02:01:34,825 –> 02:01:37,785
that can turn into religion. And yes, that can become rote. And yes, that could

1889
02:01:37,785 –> 02:01:41,550
become performative. And it and it has for many Jewish

1890
02:01:41,550 –> 02:01:44,130
people. They’re not immune to that,

1891
02:01:44,910 –> 02:01:48,705
but there is value in

1892
02:01:48,705 –> 02:01:52,545
that performative act. I don’t know where

1893
02:01:52,545 –> 02:01:56,145
the value lies because who knows what’s in a

1894
02:01:56,145 –> 02:01:59,650
man’s heart. Right? But there’s value in

1895
02:01:59,650 –> 02:02:03,410
that even in the midst of, and this is what he was

1896
02:02:03,410 –> 02:02:06,070
hitting on here, even in the midst of hell,

1897
02:02:07,495 –> 02:02:11,335
even in the midst of hell. We’re told

1898
02:02:11,335 –> 02:02:14,475
in the new testament that the demons know the name of Jesus.

1899
02:02:14,970 –> 02:02:17,310
They know the name. That’s that’s what we’re told.

1900
02:02:18,970 –> 02:02:22,730
That is fascinating to me. That is fascinating. They

1901
02:02:22,730 –> 02:02:26,545
don’t worship Jesus, but they know the name. It is interesting. You know? You

1902
02:02:26,545 –> 02:02:30,385
talk about you’re talking about, like, rock bottoms earlier. Mhmm. It sounds

1903
02:02:30,385 –> 02:02:34,200
like his his, you know, his

1904
02:02:34,340 –> 02:02:38,180
spiritual rock bottom. And

1905
02:02:38,180 –> 02:02:41,835
something else, we’re talking about solutions and and this

1906
02:02:42,235 –> 02:02:46,074
because the Internet is and we talk we talked about this, has made

1907
02:02:46,074 –> 02:02:48,414
so many people an expert. Mhmm.

1908
02:02:50,220 –> 02:02:54,000
It’s difficult to remain teachable, and so turning teachable,

1909
02:02:57,180 –> 02:03:00,525
we did talk about that earlier, but but still still just remaining teachable in situation,

1910
02:03:00,525 –> 02:03:03,505
I think, is so much is so important. It’s still kinda, like,

1911
02:03:04,605 –> 02:03:08,350
approach something with an open mind and and and how, you know,

1912
02:03:08,350 –> 02:03:11,570
how is you know, and then how do we do that?

1913
02:03:12,350 –> 02:03:15,570
Yeah. You know? And that so that’s that is,

1914
02:03:16,220 –> 02:03:19,695
Libby, on your point of, like, starting the outside in. It’s

1915
02:03:19,695 –> 02:03:23,455
like, well, that happens from how you raise your children.

1916
02:03:23,455 –> 02:03:26,250
I’m sure how you raise your children, Hassan.

1917
02:03:29,030 –> 02:03:32,815
You value remaining teachable. And

1918
02:03:32,815 –> 02:03:36,495
so and you’re a great teacher. And so I think with great

1919
02:03:36,495 –> 02:03:39,635
teachers, you’re you’re probably cultivating good students.

1920
02:03:40,200 –> 02:03:44,040
And not only students for educational and academia, but students alike because

1921
02:03:44,040 –> 02:03:46,780
we all have to get through it. And so,

1922
02:03:47,745 –> 02:03:51,425
you know, I think remaining a a book example and, you know, not

1923
02:03:51,425 –> 02:03:54,655
wasting a rock bottom Mhmm. Is,

1924
02:03:55,150 –> 02:03:58,850
you know, is a is a I don’t know what

1925
02:03:59,630 –> 02:04:03,405
potential path to solution or a solution. And

1926
02:04:03,405 –> 02:04:07,005
it has to come down to the individual because and you gotta heal yourself before

1927
02:04:07,005 –> 02:04:09,185
you can go to anybody else. So Yep.

1928
02:04:11,880 –> 02:04:15,660
Libby, final thoughts, solutions to problems. I mean, I

1929
02:04:17,765 –> 02:04:21,525
I do think, you know, the the analogy that

1930
02:04:21,525 –> 02:04:24,665
you were using earlier on or reference

1931
02:04:24,665 –> 02:04:27,639
Tom Schulz and Nietzsche and those

1932
02:04:28,260 –> 02:04:31,880
intellectuals who went in atheist and came out believing.

1933
02:04:33,315 –> 02:04:36,275
I you know, you’ve seen a resurgence of

1934
02:04:36,835 –> 02:04:40,595
yeah. Libby won’t say religiosity because that yeah.

1935
02:04:40,595 –> 02:04:43,380
That’s a movie that counters religion. But

1936
02:04:46,239 –> 02:04:49,700
focus on more organized religion or community based religion.

1937
02:04:50,415 –> 02:04:53,163
I think we yeah. Many did hit a Tom.

1938
02:04:54,975 –> 02:04:58,599
But I think what I can always

1939
02:04:58,599 –> 02:05:01,820
speak to myself, you know, when I hit my bottom

1940
02:05:02,440 –> 02:05:06,205
and I decide I chose life over death, You know, once you know how

1941
02:05:06,205 –> 02:05:09,505
close you are to death and that you’re choosing life,

1942
02:05:09,965 –> 02:05:13,750
like, you you don’t like, I I know there’s something

1943
02:05:13,750 –> 02:05:17,270
greater than myself. I don’t know what it is, but I’m

1944
02:05:17,270 –> 02:05:21,030
powered by it. Mhmm. And I don’t have certain I

1945
02:05:21,030 –> 02:05:24,844
don’t have certainty about life. I live with a very curious and

1946
02:05:24,844 –> 02:05:28,545
open mind. I think you, I actually,

1947
02:05:28,870 –> 02:05:32,570
one of the reasons I went into that dark cauldron

1948
02:05:33,110 –> 02:05:36,824
was because I was curious and interested about life, and that

1949
02:05:36,824 –> 02:05:40,585
was you know, others tried to shut that out, and have you

1950
02:05:40,585 –> 02:05:44,090
only live a certain way or be a certain way, and that wasn’t, you know,

1951
02:05:44,090 –> 02:05:47,790
true to my essence. And when I think about,

1952
02:05:50,969 –> 02:05:54,105
what Weisel was saying, you know, is he was

1953
02:05:54,725 –> 02:05:58,565
praying to a god, but what he

1954
02:05:58,565 –> 02:06:02,220
really felt was he actually touched the true

1955
02:06:02,220 –> 02:06:05,980
essence of spirituality and not the intellectualization of

1956
02:06:05,980 –> 02:06:09,495
it. Yep. And once you know, I I can say that, you know,

1957
02:06:09,495 –> 02:06:13,175
with, like, Russell Brand, you know Mhmm. And others. It’s

1958
02:06:13,175 –> 02:06:16,855
like you get to that point where it’s not words. You actually

1959
02:06:16,855 –> 02:06:20,699
have felt the essence of it, and there is something greater than yourself.

1960
02:06:22,440 –> 02:06:24,699
And it actually allows a freedom,

1961
02:06:26,600 –> 02:06:30,355
and safety, to love and to be open and to

1962
02:06:30,355 –> 02:06:34,115
be curious because you know what the alternative is, and

1963
02:06:34,115 –> 02:06:36,775
it’s not a place worth living in. Yeah.

1964
02:06:38,340 –> 02:06:41,860
It’s like a lot of places, I read a quote on a Starbucks cup many

1965
02:06:41,860 –> 02:06:44,200
years ago that said there’s freedom and commitment.

1966
02:06:46,295 –> 02:06:50,135
That’s what Tom maybe remind me of is, you know, what

1967
02:06:50,135 –> 02:06:53,355
you just said, Libby. Yeah. It is. It’s kind of like,

1968
02:06:54,210 –> 02:06:57,030
discipline is freedom. Yeah.

1969
02:06:57,730 –> 02:07:01,030
Jocko. Jocko. Jocko’s showing up here at the end of the podcast.

1970
02:07:01,570 –> 02:07:02,949
Good idea. Open through.

1971
02:07:05,485 –> 02:07:06,945
Yeah. You know?

1972
02:07:10,580 –> 02:07:14,340
The Holocaust is a serious subject, and and Yeah. And Wiesel is

1973
02:07:14,340 –> 02:07:16,600
a serious writer about that.

1974
02:07:18,545 –> 02:07:20,164
And this is a serious book.

1975
02:07:24,065 –> 02:07:27,750
One of the problems that we have to solve or is

1976
02:07:27,750 –> 02:07:30,889
how do we get people to take the lessons of history seriously?

1977
02:07:33,590 –> 02:07:37,065
And I think it’s really hard because we live in a world of

1978
02:07:37,205 –> 02:07:40,585
robotics and artificial intelligence and putting people into orbit

1979
02:07:40,965 –> 02:07:44,725
and instantaneous communication and reusable rockets. These are all a

1980
02:07:44,725 –> 02:07:48,090
thing. And yet with all our stuff,

1981
02:07:50,150 –> 02:07:53,855
we are blind to the facts of human nature, Right? We’re

1982
02:07:53,855 –> 02:07:57,295
blind to jealousy and envy and vanity and pride and lust for

1983
02:07:57,295 –> 02:08:01,135
power. And the big one, fourth, is still ruled

1984
02:08:01,135 –> 02:08:02,035
a human heart.

1985
02:08:05,320 –> 02:08:08,940
There’s a great quote that was in the the graphic novel Watchmen

1986
02:08:09,079 –> 02:08:12,545
by Alan Moore. He quoted from Albert Einstein. I love this

1987
02:08:12,545 –> 02:08:15,605
quote. When I think about the Holocaust, I think about this.

1988
02:08:16,385 –> 02:08:19,920
He says, and I quote, the release of atomic power has

1989
02:08:19,920 –> 02:08:23,760
changed everything except our way of thinking. The solution to

1990
02:08:23,760 –> 02:08:27,385
this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I

1991
02:08:27,385 –> 02:08:30,125
had known I should have become a watchmaker.

1992
02:08:33,225 –> 02:08:36,860
Albert Einstein was correct. By the way. A guy who barely

1993
02:08:37,160 –> 02:08:39,020
avoided going to Auschwitz himself.

1994
02:08:42,475 –> 02:08:44,955
Then they would they would have. The Nazis would have burned him up in a

1995
02:08:44,955 –> 02:08:46,495
crematorium in a second.

1996
02:08:50,010 –> 02:08:53,449
The release of any kind of power, whether it’s the power

1997
02:08:53,449 –> 02:08:57,210
to wield control through laws

1998
02:08:57,210 –> 02:09:00,795
and regulations over other men, because you don’t like them fourth the

1999
02:09:00,795 –> 02:09:04,095
power to make some sort of clickbaity headline.

2000
02:09:05,595 –> 02:09:09,170
That kind of power. And the postmodernists are correct on

2001
02:09:09,170 –> 02:09:12,610
this. The power relationships do change everything, but they

2002
02:09:12,610 –> 02:09:15,910
don’t change our way of thinking.

2003
02:09:17,015 –> 02:09:20,615
We’ve never come up with a technological solution for the human

2004
02:09:20,615 –> 02:09:23,115
heart and we never will.

2005
02:09:24,490 –> 02:09:28,330
I feel fairly I I I can I feel comfortable

2006
02:09:28,330 –> 02:09:30,750
in ontological certainty on saying that?

2007
02:09:33,895 –> 02:09:37,255
And it’s okay if I’m wrong, if I’m wrong on that one. Fine. I’ll I’ll

2008
02:09:37,255 –> 02:09:40,955
accept being wrong on that, but I’ll I’ll take the ontological

2009
02:09:41,015 –> 02:09:44,830
Pepsi challenge on that. I mean, I I just love what you

2010
02:09:44,830 –> 02:09:48,110
said, the quote, if you lick my heart, you’d be turning you know, that was

2011
02:09:48,190 –> 02:09:51,570
that’s another that that quote is so unreal, man. It’s unbelievable.

2012
02:09:52,415 –> 02:09:55,855
Yeah. It’s it’s I think about these

2013
02:09:55,855 –> 02:09:59,614
things oh, and I think about history and I

2014
02:09:59,614 –> 02:10:03,420
think about the cycles of history and I think about how we fail to

2015
02:10:03,420 –> 02:10:07,119
appreciate the cyclical nature of history, we get diluted by progress

2016
02:10:07,739 –> 02:10:11,325
and we forget that there’s all these old energies in the heart.

2017
02:10:11,405 –> 02:10:14,945
Right? All these old energies inside of folks.

2018
02:10:15,725 –> 02:10:18,225
And I’m really concerned,

2019
02:10:20,310 –> 02:10:24,070
that we’ve abandoned our access, not not abandoned the

2020
02:10:24,070 –> 02:10:27,554
language, we’ve abandoned our access to the language of the

2021
02:10:27,554 –> 02:10:31,335
near religious to describe the things that we see and experience.

2022
02:10:31,875 –> 02:10:35,235
We try to use psychological language because psychology is a secular

2023
02:10:35,235 –> 02:10:38,790
religion, but it’s it’s it’s so thin on the ground. It

2024
02:10:38,790 –> 02:10:42,310
doesn’t get to the heart of what we actually want to say about the

2025
02:10:42,310 –> 02:10:46,054
experience. I I

2026
02:10:46,054 –> 02:10:49,655
actually think it it goes deeper than that. I think people aren’t in touch with

2027
02:10:49,655 –> 02:10:53,090
their own feelings Yeah.

2028
02:10:53,250 –> 02:10:57,010
With their own feelings. Yeah. So that, you know, everything is about

2029
02:10:57,010 –> 02:11:00,790
external external validation or numbing.

2030
02:11:01,065 –> 02:11:04,845
Mhmm. So people don’t even have access to really how they truly feel.

2031
02:11:05,145 –> 02:11:08,825
Yeah. So Tom have the words to

2032
02:11:08,825 –> 02:11:12,630
express it, all they get are the signals of fear

2033
02:11:13,250 –> 02:11:14,550
and or numbing.

2034
02:11:16,930 –> 02:11:20,684
You know? But I I the

2035
02:11:20,684 –> 02:11:24,465
solution for me is just continue to model Yeah.

2036
02:11:24,684 –> 02:11:28,390
Healthy living. You know, what does it mean to have a healthy

2037
02:11:28,390 –> 02:11:32,230
body, mind, and spirit? A living life, like, you

2038
02:11:32,230 –> 02:11:35,865
know, happy, joyful,

2039
02:11:36,245 –> 02:11:39,705
curious, and building and creating. You know,

2040
02:11:39,925 –> 02:11:42,345
it’s easy to destroy and be judgmental.

2041
02:11:43,750 –> 02:11:46,890
Yeah. And that can feed your your need to feel

2042
02:11:48,310 –> 02:11:51,705
powerful, but, you know, your heart is

2043
02:11:51,945 –> 02:11:55,465
feeling empty. And how are you? You know, those who live like that, what are

2044
02:11:55,465 –> 02:11:59,085
they doing to numb? Yeah. Because their heart is hollow or

2045
02:11:59,225 –> 02:12:02,890
feeling hollow. I would just

2046
02:12:02,890 –> 02:12:06,650
continue to just continue to model fourth outside in. I know

2047
02:12:06,650 –> 02:12:09,310
there’s lots of people who want

2048
02:12:10,375 –> 02:12:13,595
what we’ve what you’ve got, you know, from a curiosity

2049
02:12:13,975 –> 02:12:17,495
and, you know, freedom of expression and,

2050
02:12:18,610 –> 02:12:22,290
living an empowered life. You know? There’s a lot of people who want that.

2051
02:12:22,290 –> 02:12:26,095
They just don’t know how to to access it. You know, so

2052
02:12:26,192 –> 02:12:29,615
Tom be available to those who want it. But it’s gotta be outside

2053
02:12:29,615 –> 02:12:33,215
in, decentralized, starting at your local

2054
02:12:33,215 –> 02:12:36,599
community. That’s

2055
02:12:36,599 –> 02:12:40,119
awesome. It makes me think of, like, how Ayahuasca has become

2056
02:12:40,119 –> 02:12:43,645
popular in in Hollywood, and and it’s like we want the

2057
02:12:43,645 –> 02:12:46,784
immediate like, you’re searching you you’re you’re going

2058
02:12:47,245 –> 02:12:50,545
you’re going through all this trouble to get the thing

2059
02:12:50,900 –> 02:12:53,480
that you can do just sitting in your chair.

2060
02:12:55,860 –> 02:12:59,475
And, like, the immediacy of that, like, I want my spirituality be spiritually healed right

2061
02:12:59,475 –> 02:13:00,906
now. I wanna go Tom South America. I wanna do some ancient thing and drink

2062
02:13:00,906 –> 02:13:01,735
some thing and throw up and be like, I talk

2063
02:13:07,770 –> 02:13:11,110
to the people, and now I’m better.

2064
02:13:11,260 –> 02:13:14,650
Right. Yeah. People can’t just sit

2065
02:13:14,650 –> 02:13:17,630
still, you know, and actually feel. Right?

2066
02:13:18,545 –> 02:13:22,365
Turning off all of the turn off everything. Yeah. Stop

2067
02:13:22,365 –> 02:13:25,965
putting stuff in your body, you know, physically and

2068
02:13:25,965 –> 02:13:29,580
spiritually, and just you have the answers. You just have to

2069
02:13:29,580 –> 02:13:33,040
go within, and that can be uncomfortable.

2070
02:13:35,935 –> 02:13:39,614
We don’t like being uncomfortable. We don’t like being uncomfortable. No. We

2071
02:13:39,614 –> 02:13:42,975
don’t. But you know but you know what? The the lessons of history I mean,

2072
02:13:42,975 –> 02:13:46,310
history is supposed to make us uncomfortable. It’s supposed to feel

2073
02:13:46,850 –> 02:13:50,150
bad. You know, it’s supposed to you’re supposed to feel

2074
02:13:51,730 –> 02:13:55,475
well, no. Shame and guilt are

2075
02:13:55,475 –> 02:13:59,094
signals that at the root,

2076
02:13:59,235 –> 02:14:02,910
there is something else going on. And if we get caught

2077
02:14:02,910 –> 02:14:06,690
in a shame or guilt spiral, that’s a different kind of thing.

2078
02:14:07,550 –> 02:14:11,250
But when I read night or when I read, I come in in Jerusalem,

2079
02:14:11,565 –> 02:14:15,324
or when I read letters from prison by Dietrich Von Hoffer, or

2080
02:14:15,324 –> 02:14:17,264
when I read mouse, right.

2081
02:14:18,685 –> 02:14:20,304
Or when I watch,

2082
02:14:23,340 –> 02:14:27,020
movies or films Tom your point, the Bill Maher guest, how many more movies or

2083
02:14:27,020 –> 02:14:30,595
films do we need? Right? Well,

2084
02:14:30,815 –> 02:14:34,655
it’s not how many more we need. It’s how long is it

2085
02:14:34,655 –> 02:14:38,330
gonna take for us watching the ones we’ve already got to

2086
02:14:38,330 –> 02:14:41,850
actually internalize the Jesan? Not so we don’t do it

2087
02:14:41,850 –> 02:14:45,470
again, but so that we recognize that we have to change.

2088
02:14:47,815 –> 02:14:51,275
We, but we need to go on a journey to changing our hearts,

2089
02:14:51,895 –> 02:14:55,350
not a journey to make our movies better, not a journey to make our literature

2090
02:14:55,590 –> 02:14:58,470
better, not a journey to make our technology better, not a journey, even to make

2091
02:14:58,470 –> 02:15:02,010
our leadership better, but a journey to make our hearts better.

2092
02:15:02,885 –> 02:15:06,485
People talk about epic journeys, right? Epic hero journeys. That’s an epic hero’s

2093
02:15:06,485 –> 02:15:09,385
journey. And if you can go on that journey

2094
02:15:10,090 –> 02:15:13,850
using the path of history and literature and books

2095
02:15:13,850 –> 02:15:15,470
and yes, even technology.

2096
02:15:17,555 –> 02:15:20,995
Well, maybe maybe we could

2097
02:15:20,995 –> 02:15:24,730
avoid maybe we could

2098
02:15:24,730 –> 02:15:28,090
avoid or at least ameliorate the next great evil

2099
02:15:28,090 –> 02:15:31,070
that’s that’s gonna come from human hands.

2100
02:15:33,665 –> 02:15:37,505
I’d like to thank Libby and Ryan for coming on the podcast today. This

2101
02:15:37,505 –> 02:15:40,990
was a hard book to get through, and you’ll see it on the video. It’s

2102
02:15:40,990 –> 02:15:44,770
a hard book to get through, and you’ll probably hear it in our voices.

2103
02:15:45,470 –> 02:15:48,930
But this is the point of doing these kinds of shows.

2104
02:15:50,655 –> 02:15:54,315
So, I hope that you enjoyed listening today to the Leadership

2105
02:15:54,335 –> 02:15:57,775
Lessons fourth Great Books podcast. Once again, thank you to Libby and Ryan for coming

2106
02:15:57,775 –> 02:16:00,830
on. And with that, well,

2107
02:16:01,389 –> 02:16:05,230
we’re out. Thank you for

2108
02:16:05,230 –> 02:16:08,530
listening to the Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast today.

2109
02:16:09,225 –> 02:16:12,985
And now that you’ve made it this far, you should subscribe to the

2110
02:16:12,985 –> 02:16:16,125
audio version of this show on all the major podcast players,

2111
02:16:16,505 –> 02:16:20,330
including Apple iTunes, Spotify, YouTube Music, and

2112
02:16:20,330 –> 02:16:22,910
everywhere else where podcasts are available.

2113
02:16:23,930 –> 02:16:27,575
There’s also a video version of our podcast on our YouTube

2114
02:16:27,575 –> 02:16:31,335
channel. Like and subscribe to the video version of this podcast on

2115
02:16:31,335 –> 02:16:35,118
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2116
02:16:35,219 –> 02:16:38,279
Toolbox and hit the subscribe button there on YouTube.

2117
02:16:39,139 –> 02:16:42,984
And, while you’re doing that, leave a 5 star review if you like

2118
02:16:42,984 –> 02:16:46,424
what we’re doing here on Apple, Spotify, and

2119
02:16:46,424 –> 02:16:50,205
YouTube. Just go below the player and hit 5 stars.

2120
02:16:50,690 –> 02:16:54,370
We need those reviews to grow and it’s the easiest way to help grow this

2121
02:16:54,370 –> 02:16:57,891
show. And tell all your friends, of course, in

2122
02:16:57,891 –> 02:17:01,596
leadership. By the way, if you don’t like what we’re doing here,

2123
02:17:01,596 –> 02:17:05,135
well, you can always listen to another leadership show. There are several

2124
02:17:05,355 –> 02:17:09,110
other good ones out there. At least that’s what

2125
02:17:09,110 –> 02:17:12,490
I’ve heard. Alright. Well,

2126
02:17:13,110 –> 02:17:14,410
that’s it for me.