Leadership Lessons From The Great Books – (Bonus) – A Conversation with Peter Ainley

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Hello. My name is Jesan Sorrells, and this is the

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Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast.

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Bonus. There’s no book reading

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on these bonus episodes. These are

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interviews, rants, raves, insights, and other gentle

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and sometimes not so gentle audio musings and interesting conversations

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with interesting people about leadership.

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Because listening to me and an interesting guest talk about

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leadership for at least a couple of hours is better than reading and trying

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to understand yet another business book,

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even that business book that I wrote.

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As founder and CEO of Los Global and creator

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of the Los Academy, Our guest today is

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passionate about creating dynamic organizations and

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partnering with leaders to lead in a way that improves

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impact and agility with less stress.

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His unique leadership disruptor approach improves personal

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performance while increasing leadership effectiveness, focus

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and clarity. This opens facilitation for alignment

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between leader and employees. The

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results create healthier, more agile companies, positively

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influencing culture and business impact while solving some of the

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current talent retentions and attraction challenges many

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organizations are facing in the business world today.

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And as a side note, I initially met this guest

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through my work with the World Ethics Organization. You should go

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back and listen to our interview with, Richard Messing, of

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the World Economics, Organization or World Economic Forum.

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I’m sorry. Not World Economic Forum, not WEF. Sorry. World Ethics

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Organization. Not the WEF. We’re not interviewing

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Klaus Schwab on this on this show today. But

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I initially met my guest through working with Richard, and you should go back and

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listen to that, listen to that podcast episode. And we

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connected offline as a result of that. And,

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he gave me some interesting insights about this podcast

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and talking about this podcast. And I thought, you know,

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hey, it might be really interesting to bring him on as a

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guest and introduce him to you as my audience

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today. And so I’d like to welcome to the podcast, Peter

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Ainley. How are you doing today, Peter? Hey, Jesan. Thanks very

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much. I am doing excellent. Thank you. And as you can see,

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or as you can hear, you’ll be able to see it on the video, the

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video version of this podcast later on. But as you can hear, Peter has

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a rich British accent, so that makes him sound smarter than

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me, which is great. So he’s going to elevate the intellect

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of this podcast just by talking. It’s gonna be

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great. So let’s just let’s just correct something out of there.

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Shall we? Go ahead. Yeah. The accent

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is they’re actually originally South African. But there you go. That’s even

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better, though, actually. That’s even better. Like, even makes you sound even smarter.

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Thank you. It does. Like, this is a

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Americans fall for the act that we do. We anything that sounds vaguely,

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you know, accented and then you put some interesting conversation inside of

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that, People are like, oh, oh, that guy’s smart.

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Okay. It’s it’s great. Whereas the basic American accent, you

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gotta really struggle with that with other Americans. You really do. You have to struggle

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with that because they don’t they don’t trust it. They’re like, well, how smart could

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he be? He sounds like he’s from name your state here.

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So Got it. You know?

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Okay. So, yeah, we’ll open up with that.

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And now first question of the day, you know, I read through

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your book, and I talked a little bit about our background and how we got

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connected. But for our listeners, what is it that

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you do exactly, Peter?

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Besides having a few jokes here and there on on a podcast? Yeah.

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Besides that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Besides that. Yeah.

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Well, I work with executives to make their lives just

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that little bit easier. Mhmm.

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So if you frame it another way, let’s get a little more

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technical here. Specializing in closing the leadership skills gaps.

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Okay. Creating greater clarity, cohesion, alignment

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for the executive Tom specifically.

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So that they can better navigate the global uncertainty.

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A little less stress is always useful, less anxiety. A

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lot of them deal with impostor syndrome. So let’s try and, you know,

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navigate around that one and get that out of the way so that

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they can better balance demands for stakeholders, shareholders,

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and employees. Employees can be pretty demanding too.

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Yeah. So that all

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sounds awesome. Let’s delve a little bit more into

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that. So how did you go from No, I’ll frame

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it this way. Every time I talk to someone who’s in the leadership development space,

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I kind of ask a variation of this question and I preface it by saying

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this. No one wakes up in the morning when they’re 7

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and goes, hey, I wanna be a leadership development consultant, coach,

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trainer, facilitator, whatever. Nobody nobody does that at the age of 7.

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So how did you how did you start in South

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Africa and and wind up in this spot? Walk us through a little bit of

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your a little bit of your history. Well, that’s a

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it’s a bit of an interesting journey. I will give you a caveat quickly on

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this one. Mhmm. I am writing a book with a

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bunch of other people, and a story will appear in that

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book. Oh. Dot dot dot. Alright.

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Yeah. We’re previewing the book. This is good.

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So the book should be coming out in June or July sometime. So

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k. Cool. You can read a bit more about that. But covering that

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book, so no, you’re right. I didn’t think about leadership in any which way,

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shape, or form at the age of 7. In fact, I don’t think I thought

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of anything other than how much more fun I can have with doing whatever

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it was at the time of the day. Right. But towards the

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end, I’ll just set it up. Towards the end of

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my high school career, the one thing I wanted to do was be a pilot.

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Okay. Wanted to fly. And how that came

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about is a is an interesting story. So I spent a lot of my time

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traveling. My parents kept traveling back and forth to Europe.

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So, you know, I’ve been in a plane since I was

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at Ye High. And so I always wanted the

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idea of being a pilot just gave just sort of gave me the

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sense of a certain degree of freedom. Something I wanted to enjoy

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doing. Couple of challenges in pursuing that career at the

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time in South Africa. I won’t go into those details. So

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I figured, well, I’ve gotta get something else. I’ve gotta get at least a degree

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under my belt. So when all else fails, I have something to fall back

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on. That landed up being engineering,

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got a degree and a master’s degree then in engineering,

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that being potentially the springboard to get me into Europe That would

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allow something like becoming a pilot, joining the airlines, whatever,

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to become more of a reality. Well by the time that was

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done, the need for making money that seemed to have

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grown a little bit more on the importance scale.

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So went into the engineering world into corporate,

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started at the Tom, and systematically over the

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next 2 decades worked myself up to, you

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know, director and running engineering departments.

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Figuring I knew how to do all of that based on everything I observed,

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and therein lies a key. And

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you’re not always feeling, hey, man. You know, this is fun

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and exciting. I am empowered to to be this great

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engineer, manager, leader, whatever you care to call it. But I always

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landed up having run ins with bosses I had. Mhmm. Always had

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a different view of things, a different opinion, a different idea,

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whatever it was. But it always created a little bit of tension.

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Some were more amicable to that that tension, shall

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we call it, and were willing to discuss it. Others maybe not so

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much. And, eventually this

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underlying desire for independence, for

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readers, broke me out. I went out on my own with a

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business partner, and we went into the realms of consulting in the

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engineering space, project management space. And that

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was probably where the biggest wake up call to what leadership

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really is, what it’s all about, and

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the importance of doing it right. So you begin to

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land. You know, when you’re dealing with your own employees,

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there’s a different dynamic to dealing with employees

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when you’re part of a bigger mechanism and just another cog in that

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mechanism. Even if you’re a bigger cog in that mechanism, there’s a different

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dynamic. Because now you’re responsible for people in

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a way that, well, their livelihood depends on what you do and how

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successful as an organization you are. And then

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leaders, when you go to not only lead your own own

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people, but lead much bigger Tom, how

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do you get things done when these people are just

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contracted to work with you? How do you get things done

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when you’ve got a client who’s got a number of stakeholders

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in a in a given project? How do you get them all on

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board? How do you get everybody working in a

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synergistic way to affect an outcome.

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And that really is where I started cutting my teeth as it were on

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on the whole notion of leadership and understanding what was wrong.

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The mistakes I was making and the lessons I was learning.

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And then just going through the course and going doing other ventures

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and all of that, I began to see sort of almost like a began to

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see sort of almost like a common theme,

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a common problem. In that

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well this isn’t leadership. And what that person is doing is not real

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leadership. Look how they’re treating their people. Look look what they’re doing

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there. Look what they’re doing here. So there’s this whole thing.

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No. But leadership is so much more than that. You can actually get people

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on your side who are willing to play ball with you, who want

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to work with you, who want to follow you. Mhmm.

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But, you know, the more I looked at it, everybody was going to a

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job. And as the expression goes, doing the bare

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essays minimum to get a paycheck at the end of the month. Right? Mhmm.

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You know, no more. So what was the level of commitment? What what

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was the you know, there there had to be something more to it.

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Mhmm. People just having to go to work just to carve out a living

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and exist. Yeah. It seemed like that’s the way society

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was structured, but it didn’t add Tom me it didn’t add up.

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And I I’ve always had if I can make somebody else’s life better I’m

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gonna try and do that. That’s my what I sort of I

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guess grew up learning. If you’re gonna do something do it well and help

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people in the process. And over time

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I had a through some of the moving around the globe that

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I did, I’ll end up taking a part time position

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with a non profit organization just to re establish

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myself back here in Canada at the time.

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And there was a classic example of

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what I would define as poor leadership. Mhmm. Being told I have

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to control everything That is my duty

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as the leader of this organization.

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No. That’s not your duty. Your duty is Tom inspire people

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to really wanna be here. And the more people I spoke to

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who were in that organization, the bigger the problem I saw.

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That was probably the trigger. And

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then the final nail or

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the push over the edge was 2020

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and watching how things transpired in that year. And we

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won’t dive into that but that was a highlight for me to

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see. Man, people don’t know how to lead.

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It’s yeah. So I’ve got to do something about it. And that’s then

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what got me more into the leadership development space

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and more into working with more senior leaders going after that

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market because that’s where change begins to happen in any

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organization. So that’s a a a fourth

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version of the longer story you might find in the book. Yeah. It’s coming

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out in, July or June or yes. We’ll sometime. We’ll

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talk more about the book, later on or or even as we go.

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Okay. So I was taking several notes while you were talking, writing

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down several things, because there’s there’s several pieces of that

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that I wanna pull apart and I wanna I wanna play off of a little

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bit. So.

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I guess the first thing is this idea. You you said you wanted to be

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a pilot, initially in high school, but then that that

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sort of readers, you sort of redirected your your your

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focus into the space of engineering. Now

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here’s what I know about engineers. And I love engineers, by the way. I don’t

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have a problem with them. We need engineers. We need people who could build the

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bridges. We need both engineers and construction workers. We need people who could build the

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bridges and who could put them up, right? The theory and the practice, right? We

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need them both together. We need the people who can come

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up with the idea of the internet and then the people who can actually develop

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that thing and, and kind of make Tom, make that work.

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I was recently listening to a podcast interview with a guy named

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Ian McGillchrist. Fascinating guy in the,

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in the neuroscience, excuse me,

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philosophy and and book writing space.

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And he made a point that I think is relevant to our conversation

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here. He said the current society that we live in,

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our current ethic is built around a fourth of left brain engineering

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ethic. Writers. And this relates to

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leadership by the way. It also relates to ethics, which I want to talk

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about today as well, because of your work with, with WEO.

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But in a in a in a in a

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society, particularly a Writers society where we’ve

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sort of reached this pinnacle of and I call it the idea of utility. That’s

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not the word that he used, but where every idea has to have utility

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in order to particularly market utility in order to be

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valued. We are throwing away and this was his concern.

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We are throwing away all of the right brain stuff, or we’re

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saying that that doesn’t matter.

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Now when I now oh, here’s where that idea ties together. When I run

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into folks with an engineering background Mhmm. They tend

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to be some of the hardest folks to sell on the

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idea of leadership because they’re

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convinced that because and I this is how I sort of frame it for them.

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I know you’re convinced by data. I get that. But you’re surrounded by a bunch

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of people who aren’t, and you have to lead them sort of differently.

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Leaders that been something that you’ve seen in

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your experience or am I totally off the mark there?

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I’m gonna start off by saying, I engineers, yes,

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definitely left brained, technically orientated, 1 plus one has to

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equal 2. Fourth. Something majorly wrong.

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The challenge from a leadership point of view is a lot of those people

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are promoted into position of leadership without actually understanding what

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leadership is. Thinking that, oh, well, I’ll just do 2+2 and I’ll get 4

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out of it. Right. And

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my from my own personal experience,

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data’s great if you’re wanting to build a bridge.

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Right. Okay. But I have not found

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2 the same people. Right. Okay. So

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2 plus 2 ain’t gonna equal 4 at this point.

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So you got the human behavioral factor to take the

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human psychology factor to take in. And maybe my

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brother used to jibe me out, this is going

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back a few years, he said, you know, Peter, you shouldn’t have done engineering. You

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should have been a psychologist. You should have studied psychology.

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And, well, maybe there’s an element of truth to that because I find human

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behavior rather interesting and the psychology behind some of this lot and

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why people do what they do and what impacts people not

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only mindset but the behavioral aspect of

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how does your how does your teenage years, your younger years

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impact how you lead later in life? Mhmm. Now

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that thought is I I mean, working on developing that fourth, does

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that become a PhD in leadership? I don’t know, but time will tell.

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So right brain being the more creative side,

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but also more the people side of things,

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is something that is important to develop. Not everybody has it.

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Some people are slower at getting it. But without

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that aspect of it, without understanding

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how you think. So you referring

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to any given leader who’s turning. How you think, when you

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understand how you think, you’ve crossed a lot of that bridge of the right

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brain side of things. So you can start

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balancing between left and right brain.

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So, I’ve said this before on this podcast. I’m a

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humanities major. I’m one of those annoying humanities major people.

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Right? You know, I went to school for art.

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I’ve never used my art degree in any practical

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way Tom, like, draw or print, make, or paint and make money

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from that. Instead, I took all of the ways

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of seeing. That’s how I frame it. And I went into

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I went into the very, at least in comparison to what I came out

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of, the very left brain business world.

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Writers? And I can read an Excel spreadsheet and, you know, and actually have

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taught Excel, which is interesting. I find that to be amusing. I’ve taught at

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business schools. I know how to do a pivot table. I know all that,

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right? But

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I always thought that the biggest challenge that we

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have and we sort of sort of see this with the with the rise of

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what we euphemistically call artificial intelligence. I just call it large language

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algorithms, which is the next great frontier. We could talk a little bit about that

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today, but I find it interesting that. Or at

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least the biggest challenge I’ve had is dealing with people

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who are leaders, who are very technically proficient

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at what they do and tend to look at all of the

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human psychological stuff as a bug that

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needs to be erased rather than a feature that’s inbuilt to

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to the human experience. And in my

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experience, getting them to cross over from, oh, this is a bug,

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and if I just put enough resources behind it, it’ll be fixed fixed Tom this

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is a feature. Now I have to navigate around it because it’s not going

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away, for myself anyway, and my consultancy, that was the

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biggest Rubicon that I had to cross. Does that make sense?

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Yeah. And I think it is the biggest Rubicon. Many leaders who come from the

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00:19:55,905 –> 00:19:59,350
technical background have to cross. Right. So the

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others, I think maybe I’m maybe one of the essays

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soer ones. By the way, I think. But it it

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is a challenge for a lot of people, a lot of technical people Tom become

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effective at the human element of business,

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leading people effectively. Well, and that becomes

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because you mentioned, you know, having commitment. You mentioned,

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the importance of doing, doing the thing correctly, writers? Doing

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the thing right. And you and I, there were, there were sort of 3

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sort of,

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prompting. Right. Tom use artificial

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intelligence terms. There were 3 prompting questions for you, which were, you know, how

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do you get things done? How do you get people on board and what is

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real? And I put it in air quotes, but what is real leadership? So

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those are all fascinating to me, and I love to be able to pull some

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of those apart today. Maybe starting with this idea of how do you get

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things done. So if I’m a leader listening to

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this, how do you get things done?

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Like, if you’re talking to that leader, like, you know, what do you

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what do you say to them? Like, how do they get things done? Because if

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I’m a new leader let’s let’s look at a new leader, not not an experienced

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one, not with some life on them. But if I’m a new leader, if I’ve

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been newly promoted into a position, typically, I

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might be in a corporate bureaucracy.

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Typically, I’m going to be given people that I would not have selected,

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necessarily to work with. I won’t even real I don’t even really wanna have these

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people over to my house for a barbecue on a nice Saturday.

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And, yes, by the way, I’d like to continue to get paid because I’ve got

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a mortgage. So, you know, I’ve

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got bigger concerns than whether or not these people feel good. I gotta keep the

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money flowing in because, you know, inflation’s all over the place and, you

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know, hey, the baby needs a new pair of shoes.

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Right? So for me as a new leader, this is very

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practical. This isn’t like pie in the sky theory.

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This is very practical. So how do I get people to get

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things done? How do I do that as a new leader? And not screw up

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so your boss doesn’t complain? Or fire me fourth my tech

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gets cut or right. Or get demoted or you know? Because I like to I

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like to say this because I also have I also have ideas about status

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in my head, which I’ve not fully acknowledged, but I do have ideas about

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status and my place in the in the social hierarchy, not only of the bureaucracy,

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but also of my neighborhood, my community, blah blah blah blah blah blah. I like

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my neighborhood, my community, blah blah blah blah blah blah. I like saying that I’m

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the VP of x, y, z thing and that I lead a, b, c number

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of people. I enjoy saying that when I go to church

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or when I volunteer at a local community or or whatever.

361
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Yeah. And that because that just gives me this perception of status

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and prestige and hey, people Yeah. We like that. I mean that’s

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the human nature. That’s the ego. We’re speaking to the ego at that point. Correct.

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So to answer your question, that is the

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probably the biggest

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Rubicon that that people need to cross is that initial

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position of now you’ve got these people that while you’ve been told

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they report to you, you’re very good at what you’re doing.

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And I’m going to use the term technical here. It doesn’t matter what the vocational

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aspect of it is, but it’s doing, you know, be it an accountant, dealing with

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numbers, or being an engineer, fourth or a research scientist, whatever. That’s your

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technical work. They’re good at

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that and they get promoted into some form of position, a

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leadership position. They now have a bunch of people. The

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very first thing that I work with

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people on, who are you? As your

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as a leaders, you got you got this position that’s great. It’s all wonderful and

378
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all of that. But who are you? Do you know who you are? Do you

379
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know what trips you up? Do you know what excites you? Do you know what

380
00:23:52,779 –> 00:23:56,515
really gets you going within the technical space or

381
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anywhere else for that matter? Mhmm. But it’s un

382
00:24:00,195 –> 00:24:03,610
beginning to understand who you are as a Jesan. Because there’s

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everybody’s got something that trips them up. Every everybody’s got some

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saboteur that’s going to come and, hey, I wanna do this great job. Get the

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right metrics for my boss. Hey, you know, I gotta I gotta prove that I

386
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can do this. And something’s gonna happen that’s gonna screw up. And now your

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stress level’s just gone through the roof and then something.

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So but are you aware of that, what that is?

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Are you aware of that trigger that’s gotten you there? So now

390
00:24:30,220 –> 00:24:33,945
you’re in firefighting mode. On the moment people go into firefighting mode,

391
00:24:33,945 –> 00:24:36,845
it’s sort of tunnel vision and everything else gets blurred

392
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and doesn’t feature anymore. That’s the biggest

393
00:24:41,450 –> 00:24:44,809
challenge. So the more you

394
00:24:44,809 –> 00:24:46,429
become self aware,

395
00:24:49,125 –> 00:24:52,905
the better you’re able to now lead. Now what do I mean by that?

396
00:24:54,245 –> 00:24:58,070
When you understand yourself, when you understand the things that

397
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trip you up, when you understand things that motivate you, when you understand

398
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where your strength lie,

399
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You begin to realize that other people have

400
00:25:10,465 –> 00:25:13,685
the same thing. They have their

401
00:25:14,130 –> 00:25:17,910
saboteurs, the triggers that trip them up. They have their strength.

402
00:25:18,450 –> 00:25:22,130
They have their motivators. Oh, well, that means they’re not that

403
00:25:22,130 –> 00:25:25,385
different from me. Mhmm. Interesting.

404
00:25:26,804 –> 00:25:28,985
That creates an awareness

405
00:25:30,630 –> 00:25:33,929
that you’ve got a bunch of other people, not a bunch of robots.

406
00:25:36,070 –> 00:25:39,770
Because I think too many people in that first and I and I

407
00:25:40,255 –> 00:25:43,855
I experienced that in some of my own leadership in the corporate

408
00:25:43,855 –> 00:25:47,294
space. Oh, well, now you report to me. Now you must go do do do

409
00:25:47,294 –> 00:25:50,490
do do. Right. You’re not robots.

410
00:25:51,190 –> 00:25:55,030
You can’t people do not operate as robots. I had I had

411
00:25:55,030 –> 00:25:58,554
bosses who basically said, well, just go and do this and get that done and

412
00:25:58,554 –> 00:26:02,095
do this and do that. You know, all technical stuff. Well, that’s great.

413
00:26:02,394 –> 00:26:05,760
But I if I slipped up, then what?

414
00:26:06,220 –> 00:26:09,820
And, you know, then you got the royal the look, the the speaking

415
00:26:09,820 –> 00:26:13,434
to, the threat, the, you know,

416
00:26:13,434 –> 00:26:17,215
everybody has their own story on that one as you did to me, I’m sure.

417
00:26:17,675 –> 00:26:20,975
But that’s I found is the biggest turning. When I can recognize

418
00:26:22,380 –> 00:26:25,980
that the people who are reporting to me now, be they the

419
00:26:25,980 –> 00:26:29,740
chosen ones or the ones given to me, which in as to your

420
00:26:29,740 –> 00:26:33,415
point, is invariably when we are promoted within a corporate

421
00:26:33,415 –> 00:26:36,715
structure, we inherit those people. Mhmm.

422
00:26:37,255 –> 00:26:40,539
Mhmm. But when we can recognize that they’re human beings

423
00:26:42,279 –> 00:26:45,260
with the same desires well, with with desires,

424
00:26:46,039 –> 00:26:48,275
needs, saboteurs,

425
00:26:49,775 –> 00:26:53,295
triggers just like I do. Now I can have a

426
00:26:53,295 –> 00:26:57,140
different perspective on how I can go

427
00:26:57,140 –> 00:27:00,820
about getting them to do what they’re doing. Now

428
00:27:00,820 –> 00:27:04,455
this doesn’t happen overnight. So how do I get people to do

429
00:27:04,534 –> 00:27:07,595
to come back to your question, try and bring this full circle,

430
00:27:08,615 –> 00:27:12,394
getting people to do things. Well, one, they’re technically, for the most part,

431
00:27:13,160 –> 00:27:17,000
have an idea of what they should be doing. Writers? 1+1 is

432
00:27:17,000 –> 00:27:20,760
going to equal 2. So just go through the steps that make

433
00:27:20,760 –> 00:27:24,585
it equal 2. But it comes

434
00:27:24,585 –> 00:27:28,345
down to how do I then, and this we’re delving into the

435
00:27:28,345 –> 00:27:31,720
depth, starting into some of the depth stuff here is how can I

436
00:27:31,720 –> 00:27:35,480
influence them to make sure that they want to do 1 +1 equals

437
00:27:35,480 –> 00:27:39,185
2? That you use the word

438
00:27:39,185 –> 00:27:42,725
inspire, a duty to inspire. Right?

439
00:27:43,185 –> 00:27:46,809
But I like that the other I word influence a little bit

440
00:27:46,809 –> 00:27:50,409
better because I think a lot of new

441
00:27:50,409 –> 00:27:52,909
leaders and quite frankly, a lot of seasoned

442
00:27:53,061 –> 00:27:56,195
leaders, actually

443
00:27:56,575 –> 00:27:59,715
don’t understand the word inspiration.

444
00:28:00,495 –> 00:28:04,180
I think that comes loaded with a lot of Yep.

445
00:28:04,180 –> 00:28:07,860
Ideas about charisma and I’m not a leadership theories guy. I mean, I know what

446
00:28:07,860 –> 00:28:11,220
they are, but I’m not a leadership theories guy. I think that a lot of

447
00:28:11,220 –> 00:28:13,915
that’s, well, much of that is noise.

448
00:28:15,975 –> 00:28:18,715
And it’s an attempt Tom, by the left brain,

449
00:28:19,415 –> 00:28:23,110
to just structure, a lot of the right

450
00:28:23,110 –> 00:28:26,710
brain chaos that that is seen in in in the leadership space. This is why

451
00:28:26,710 –> 00:28:30,545
there’s over 400,000 books on leadership just on Amazon.com

452
00:28:30,925 –> 00:28:34,225
alone, just in the United States search for Get Global,

453
00:28:35,420 –> 00:28:38,228
because almost everybody. And I said this in my book on leadership,

454
00:28:39,100 –> 00:28:42,860
almost everybody knows leadership is like pornography. Almost everybody

455
00:28:42,860 –> 00:28:45,645
knows what it is when they see it and they know what it is when

456
00:28:45,645 –> 00:28:49,425
they don’t see it. Jesan. And so there’s 315,000,000

457
00:28:49,965 –> 00:28:53,720
people in, in, in the United States, roughly, And

458
00:28:53,720 –> 00:28:57,360
that’s 315,000,000 different versions of what leadership is. Sorry.

459
00:28:57,360 –> 00:29:00,800
It just it just is. And so theories are an attempt to sort

460
00:29:00,800 –> 00:29:04,505
of pull all that together and and sort of systematize that. And that’s why many

461
00:29:04,505 –> 00:29:06,925
of them fail at the individual level.

462
00:29:08,590 –> 00:29:12,190
But I say that to say this, I think people hear the word

463
00:29:12,190 –> 00:29:16,030
inspiration and they think that that means that you have to have charisma as

464
00:29:16,030 –> 00:29:19,815
a leader. Whereas influence means you actually

465
00:29:19,815 –> 00:29:23,655
have a skill set there. And I take that influence and I

466
00:29:23,655 –> 00:29:27,429
take the definition of influence from Robert Cialdini. You know, this idea

467
00:29:27,429 –> 00:29:31,049
that, okay, influence is part of persuasion

468
00:29:31,110 –> 00:29:34,730
and influence is a skill set, whereas persuasion is the ability.

469
00:29:34,875 –> 00:29:38,395
Right? And if I could merge those two things together, anyone can get a skill

470
00:29:38,395 –> 00:29:41,775
set. Anyone can learn how to ride a bike. Some people will ride it well.

471
00:29:42,100 –> 00:29:44,920
Some people will ride it poorly, but anyone can ride a bike

472
00:29:45,780 –> 00:29:49,380
within their own physical capabilities, right, to ride a bike. Right. So,

473
00:29:50,035 –> 00:29:53,815
the same thing with leadership, same thing with this idea of influence versus inspiration.

474
00:29:55,955 –> 00:29:59,529
But you put the word duty next to that. Why do people have a

475
00:29:59,529 –> 00:30:03,289
duty to influence or a duty to, as you said,

476
00:30:03,289 –> 00:30:03,789
inspire?

477
00:30:07,615 –> 00:30:11,215
When so the the the reason why I use the word

478
00:30:11,215 –> 00:30:14,736
duty because we’re when we get promoted into a position of

479
00:30:14,736 –> 00:30:17,990
leadership, there is an out well, there’s responsibility.

480
00:30:18,610 –> 00:30:22,049
And depending on where you are, there’s authority that comes with it and all of

481
00:30:22,049 –> 00:30:25,475
that. But that renders you and using the word

482
00:30:25,475 –> 00:30:29,155
duty is you have you have a a a

483
00:30:29,155 –> 00:30:32,770
group of people who now in the corporate structure

484
00:30:32,770 –> 00:30:36,550
report Tom you. Mhmm. There’s a group of people who are looking up to you

485
00:30:36,610 –> 00:30:39,990
for guidance and fourth, quote, leadership.

486
00:30:41,725 –> 00:30:44,865
They wanting direction. They wanting

487
00:30:45,885 –> 00:30:49,245
to feel significant. They’re wanting to

488
00:30:49,245 –> 00:30:52,830
experience something of value and have a sense

489
00:30:52,830 –> 00:30:56,669
of importance. Mhmm. No different to you in

490
00:30:56,669 –> 00:30:59,649
that position of leadership coming from above you.

491
00:31:00,505 –> 00:31:04,105
So there is an inherent duty when you have been given the

492
00:31:04,105 –> 00:31:07,860
responsibility to guide people, to guide

493
00:31:07,860 –> 00:31:11,300
them well. Yes, we spoke about

494
00:31:11,300 –> 00:31:15,060
inspiration. You’re right with the word influence. Influence, I mean

495
00:31:15,060 –> 00:31:17,000
ultimately leadership is about influence.

496
00:31:18,815 –> 00:31:22,654
Influence can happen in 2 essays, though. 1

497
00:31:22,654 –> 00:31:26,400
is inspiring, the other one is not. One is positive the

498
00:31:26,400 –> 00:31:30,180
other one has a negative impact. It does,

499
00:31:31,280 –> 00:31:35,025
one you can get people to rise to the occasion as it were. You

500
00:31:35,745 –> 00:31:39,505
get people behind you, behind the cause, whatever it is. And the other one they’ll

501
00:31:39,505 –> 00:31:43,265
do, I mentioned earlier, the bare minimum just to get

502
00:31:43,265 –> 00:31:46,610
paid at the end of the month. Mhmm. And that is that is the effect

503
00:31:46,610 –> 00:31:50,450
of influence. Inspiration leaves people feeling excited about what they

504
00:31:50,450 –> 00:31:54,105
do. And that,

505
00:31:54,105 –> 00:31:57,545
I believe, is also falls under the banner of

506
00:31:57,545 –> 00:32:01,330
influence, getting into the detail of it. Influence

507
00:32:01,630 –> 00:32:05,330
you as a as an influencer, as a leaders, influencing people,

508
00:32:05,710 –> 00:32:09,535
your goal is to inspire them to do what they’re doing, to

509
00:32:09,535 –> 00:32:11,554
do what they’re doing technically well.

510
00:32:14,415 –> 00:32:18,110
Now does that mean I have to entertain people? No.

511
00:32:18,649 –> 00:32:22,250
Like, am I required to be like Taylor Swift, who I

512
00:32:22,250 –> 00:32:26,010
didn’t know who I did not know who that person was until

513
00:32:26,010 –> 00:32:29,675
literally a year ago? Like I had no clue who that person

514
00:32:29,675 –> 00:32:32,795
was. And I was happy in my life. I was fine. Like I was I

515
00:32:32,795 –> 00:32:36,450
was continuing to exist. I continued to eat 3, 3 meals a

516
00:32:36,450 –> 00:32:40,289
day, roughly. I continue to breathe. I continue to live at my house.

517
00:32:40,289 –> 00:32:42,934
I continue to love my kids. Like everything was fine. And then all of a

518
00:32:42,934 –> 00:32:46,615
sudden, this person popped up and now I’m like, I’ve gotta know who this

519
00:32:46,615 –> 00:32:50,294
person is. Do I have to entertain? Because I

520
00:32:50,294 –> 00:32:54,049
think a lot of leaders confuse

521
00:32:54,049 –> 00:32:57,809
that idea of of in of of being of influencing or being

522
00:32:57,809 –> 00:33:01,635
an influencer. Because, you know, social media is filled with people

523
00:33:01,635 –> 00:33:05,235
who are quote unquote influencers. Writers? And really they’re just

524
00:33:05,235 –> 00:33:09,050
they’re just Glorified entertainers? They’re lower they’re low

525
00:33:09,050 –> 00:33:12,890
rent versions of Taylor Swift. Do I need to be a

526
00:33:12,890 –> 00:33:15,850
low rent version of Taylor Swift for my team? Do I really need to do

527
00:33:15,850 –> 00:33:19,515
that? No. Okay. Alright.

528
00:33:19,515 –> 00:33:23,275
Thank you. Thank you for freeing me from that. No. I don’t

529
00:33:23,275 –> 00:33:26,600
believe you’re a mint. I some people’s personality

530
00:33:27,540 –> 00:33:30,760
might lend itself to being a little bit more entertaining.

531
00:33:31,540 –> 00:33:35,135
Right. But not necessitating being an

532
00:33:35,195 –> 00:33:38,955
entertainer. Entertainer. Right. Yeah. Okay. Well, I

533
00:33:39,115 –> 00:33:42,210
but I do. I think a lot of leaders because of the and this gets

534
00:33:42,210 –> 00:33:44,390
to sort of how our leadership culture has

535
00:33:47,490 –> 00:33:51,135
disintegrated, I think, is probably the best term over the or

536
00:33:51,135 –> 00:33:54,815
atomized. Maybe let’s be more a little more friendly has atomized over the

537
00:33:54,815 –> 00:33:58,414
last, you essays 20 years. I think it’s atomized over the last

538
00:33:58,414 –> 00:34:01,090
25 years. And I think that part of that,

539
00:34:02,110 –> 00:34:04,910
or my theory on that, and let me kind of run this by you a

540
00:34:04,910 –> 00:34:08,734
little bit. My theory is that when the commercial internet got

541
00:34:08,734 –> 00:34:12,034
turned on in 1989 and the Berlin wall came down,

542
00:34:12,494 –> 00:34:15,855
those were 2 events kind of

543
00:34:15,855 –> 00:34:19,329
like, similar to Woodstock and

544
00:34:19,329 –> 00:34:22,929
Apollo happening in 1968 that

545
00:34:22,929 –> 00:34:26,425
that were that were what I call thunder

546
00:34:26,425 –> 00:34:30,185
clap events, except one we recognize as a thunder clap

547
00:34:30,185 –> 00:34:33,890
event, the fall of the Berlin wall. But one the

548
00:34:33,890 –> 00:34:37,730
other one, we didn’t. We didn’t hear the thunderclap go off because it’s

549
00:34:37,730 –> 00:34:41,355
boom, took a while Tom to hit us. Right?

550
00:34:41,355 –> 00:34:44,335
Yep. But both of those events

551
00:34:45,275 –> 00:34:49,054
began the heralding of the decline of what I call mass leadership.

552
00:34:50,980 –> 00:34:54,739
So the if you look at the leaders of the 20th century, they led big

553
00:34:54,739 –> 00:34:58,280
things. They led big bureaucracies, big company big companies,

554
00:34:59,635 –> 00:35:03,315
big civic organizations. Big was the thing. Mass was the

555
00:35:03,315 –> 00:35:07,075
thing. Get as many people and think of IBM, right? Get as many people

556
00:35:07,075 –> 00:35:10,859
as you can working at IBM. Get as many people as you can working

557
00:35:10,859 –> 00:35:14,380
at Lockheed Martin. Get as many people as you can working at any of the

558
00:35:14,380 –> 00:35:17,785
great 20th century brands, Pepsi, Coke, whatever, right?

559
00:35:18,476 –> 00:35:21,924
Fourth so Books than Pepsi, probably. But get them turning.

560
00:35:22,904 –> 00:35:26,690
You know, people will will follow because they’re a

561
00:35:26,690 –> 00:35:30,530
generation that came out of World War II. So they’re going to follow. They’re going

562
00:35:30,530 –> 00:35:33,965
to say, yes, sir. They’re going to salute and they’re going to be dutiful little

563
00:35:34,103 –> 00:35:36,925
readers. They’re going to go, and they’re going to be happy with 3 hots and

564
00:35:36,925 –> 00:35:39,565
a cot in their neighborhood. And it’s going to take a while for all this

565
00:35:39,565 –> 00:35:43,130
to kind of fall apart. And it did begin to it did begin to atomize.

566
00:35:43,130 –> 00:35:46,970
It began to disintegrate, in the late sixties and going into the seventies

567
00:35:46,970 –> 00:35:50,329
and the eighties, but there was still enough power underneath of that idea of mass

568
00:35:50,329 –> 00:35:53,714
leadership to push it through even into the early

569
00:35:53,714 –> 00:35:57,555
2000. But as the Internet became more powerful, this is my

570
00:35:57,555 –> 00:36:01,320
theory, as the Internet became more powerful and as the ability

571
00:36:01,320 –> 00:36:04,860
for me to connect with Peter or Peter to connect with

572
00:36:05,240 –> 00:36:08,755
somebody in India or somebody in India to be able to connect with

573
00:36:08,974 –> 00:36:12,515
someone in Russia. As that individual connection

574
00:36:12,575 –> 00:36:16,280
became more powerful, Now we moved from

575
00:36:16,900 –> 00:36:20,520
mass leadership being the thing that was being prioritized

576
00:36:20,820 –> 00:36:24,055
to the space where we are at now, which is where I

577
00:36:24,675 –> 00:36:28,355
believe individualized leadership is the thing that everybody’s looking for. And

578
00:36:28,355 –> 00:36:31,655
that’s really hard if you’re still working in a corporate bureaucratic

579
00:36:31,795 –> 00:36:35,110
structure Tom understand. Understand. I think it’s hard to understand. I think it’s hard to

580
00:36:35,110 –> 00:36:38,790
accept. So when I talk to not

581
00:36:38,790 –> 00:36:42,335
new leaders and not veteran leaders, but leaders who are sort of on their path

582
00:36:42,335 –> 00:36:45,795
to being veteran leaders are kind of in the middle. One of their biggest frustrations

583
00:36:45,855 –> 00:36:48,734
is, well, I’ve got all these people and they want to bring their whole selves

584
00:36:48,734 –> 00:36:52,059
to work. And let’s say I got a team of 20 people. Does that mean

585
00:36:52,059 –> 00:36:55,420
that I need to be a different person for all 20 of these people? And

586
00:36:55,420 –> 00:36:58,945
I say, yes. That’s what it means because their

587
00:36:58,945 –> 00:37:02,545
phones are set up with social media that caters to

588
00:37:02,545 –> 00:37:05,609
them. And their dopa, their dopaminergically

589
00:37:06,070 –> 00:37:09,670
being goosed to want things individually their

590
00:37:09,670 –> 00:37:13,369
way. Just like if you show me the front of your iPhone leader,

591
00:37:13,635 –> 00:37:17,315
mister and missus leader, your phone doesn’t look like mine. You’re being

592
00:37:17,315 –> 00:37:21,075
dopaminergically goosed in the things that you like, but you don’t

593
00:37:21,075 –> 00:37:23,810
have that. I love to how you framed it as self awareness. You don’t have

594
00:37:23,810 –> 00:37:27,490
that self awareness, that hardheaded empathy. Instead, you want

595
00:37:27,490 –> 00:37:31,224
the math thing because it’s easier for you. Not

596
00:37:31,224 –> 00:37:35,005
easier for the people you’re leading. This is my theory.

597
00:37:35,305 –> 00:37:38,425
Yeah. And and and you you’ve got a valid point there in terms of the

598
00:37:38,425 –> 00:37:40,810
mass leadership thing being something that

599
00:37:42,010 –> 00:37:45,550
came out of the world wars back in the, you know,

600
00:37:45,770 –> 00:37:49,365
forties. Yep. That came to an end. Corporate took off,

601
00:37:49,365 –> 00:37:52,825
especially when you look at North America. Europe had to rebuild.

602
00:37:53,445 –> 00:37:57,059
It there was that sense, I am the leader. Do

603
00:37:57,280 –> 00:38:01,039
as you’re told. You know, yes, sir. And off you go and do it.

604
00:38:01,039 –> 00:38:04,704
Mhmm. I think that’s also

605
00:38:04,704 –> 00:38:08,244
a remnant of the industrial age when

606
00:38:08,464 –> 00:38:11,845
it took off back in sixties whenever. Mhmm. And

607
00:38:12,670 –> 00:38:16,290
you got because at the beginning of 19th century, the whole idea of automations

608
00:38:16,670 –> 00:38:20,430
and and production line efficiencies really took off. I

609
00:38:20,430 –> 00:38:22,955
mean, that was Ford’s Henry Ford’s,

610
00:38:23,815 –> 00:38:27,595
doing Big idea. Yeah. Big idea. Yeah. Bringing that to fruition.

611
00:38:27,735 –> 00:38:31,090
And there is a sense whenever something

612
00:38:31,230 –> 00:38:34,990
big and new comes along, while it may it

613
00:38:34,990 –> 00:38:38,375
needs some mass leadership, it needs somebody very powerful,

614
00:38:38,375 –> 00:38:41,975
very strong to push it through, to

615
00:38:41,975 –> 00:38:45,735
pull it through. Distinction between push and

616
00:38:45,735 –> 00:38:49,559
pull. Yep. And then, you

617
00:38:49,559 –> 00:38:52,680
know, when you essays the Internet came along, you gave people a lot more access

618
00:38:52,680 –> 00:38:55,740
to the masses that made communicate intercommunication

619
00:38:56,200 –> 00:38:59,835
between individuals a lot easier than doing the old

620
00:38:59,835 –> 00:39:03,275
snail mail turning, and you only knew a handful of people. You wrote a letter

621
00:39:03,275 –> 00:39:07,110
to me anyway. Right. So we now get exposed

622
00:39:07,110 –> 00:39:09,610
to a lot more information. Did that drive

623
00:39:10,470 –> 00:39:13,990
the individualization aspect of

624
00:39:13,990 –> 00:39:17,815
people? I’m gonna say I don’t think it did. I think what it did

625
00:39:17,815 –> 00:39:21,575
is it brought it to the surface. Okay. Okay. I think

626
00:39:21,575 –> 00:39:25,279
we’ve all had the individualization turning, but Sorrells

627
00:39:25,279 –> 00:39:29,119
norms dictated. No, you do as you’re told, because this is a corporate

628
00:39:29,119 –> 00:39:32,799
structure and you go to work and every, that’s just the way it is. And

629
00:39:32,799 –> 00:39:36,285
if fourth already accepted that, But it’s interesting to observe from

630
00:39:36,285 –> 00:39:39,805
about the 19 sixties onwards that began to bit by

631
00:39:39,805 –> 00:39:43,599
bit break down. Right. And

632
00:39:43,599 –> 00:39:47,200
the Internet was almost where a momentum took

633
00:39:47,200 –> 00:39:50,820
off Mhmm. Because of of what it what it ushered in.

634
00:39:51,255 –> 00:39:55,015
So I don’t think it’s necessarily new. I just brought to the

635
00:39:55,015 –> 00:39:58,455
surface something that is inherently there. And then the

636
00:39:58,455 –> 00:40:02,140
generation, so the millennials, Gen z, gen z’s

637
00:40:02,200 –> 00:40:05,960
now, well, they’ve grown up with these things in their hand the whole time.

638
00:40:05,960 –> 00:40:08,780
That’s what they used to, you know. Social media feeds.

639
00:40:09,400 –> 00:40:13,065
Right? But now they have a very different awareness to what

640
00:40:13,065 –> 00:40:16,765
we had when we were teenagers. Mhmm.

641
00:40:17,480 –> 00:40:21,160
Well, and you you well, and you mentioned the generational differences. I wanna talk a

642
00:40:21,160 –> 00:40:24,840
little bit about that too because I do think well, I think a couple of

643
00:40:24,840 –> 00:40:28,485
things. So we’re having a massive generational

644
00:40:28,485 –> 00:40:32,085
turnover. Right? So the baby boomers Yeah. Are are are

645
00:40:32,085 –> 00:40:35,840
dragging themselves, kicking and screaming out the door. There is a lot of kicking

646
00:40:35,840 –> 00:40:39,680
and screaming going on, but Yes. They are they are they are dragging themselves

647
00:40:39,680 –> 00:40:43,405
out the door. Now they’re not leaving succession

648
00:40:43,405 –> 00:40:47,245
plans because they don’t trust Gen Xers, and there just aren’t enough Gen Xers as

649
00:40:47,245 –> 00:40:50,865
a generational cohort globally or in America.

650
00:40:52,609 –> 00:40:55,890
They just start the numbers just start there. You know, the 13 I’m part of

651
00:40:55,890 –> 00:40:59,585
that generation that was fourth between 1960 1980. There’s only,

652
00:40:59,585 –> 00:41:03,424
like, I think, 25,000,000 of us. That’s tiny.

653
00:41:03,424 –> 00:41:06,565
But I do know with the Gen X’s though,

654
00:41:07,440 –> 00:41:11,200
they’re part of the challenge with the gen x’s is they’re looking after those

655
00:41:11,200 –> 00:41:14,945
baby boomers extracting themselves out of the workforce. Correct. Right.

656
00:41:15,105 –> 00:41:18,545
They’re not only are they looking after the baby boomers, but we’re also raising gen

657
00:41:18,545 –> 00:41:22,385
Z. And, and we had to

658
00:41:22,385 –> 00:41:25,930
do, we didn’t do battle with the millennials because we were just like,

659
00:41:27,430 –> 00:41:30,970
all right. Let’s have to accept the message.

660
00:41:31,463 –> 00:41:35,125
Writers. Well, and there’s just so many of them. There’s 80 there’s 80 some odd

661
00:41:35,125 –> 00:41:37,845
million. Like, what are you gonna do? You’re really gonna go into a street war

662
00:41:37,845 –> 00:41:41,030
with 80,000,000 people? Like, give me a break. Come on. It’s just easier to just

663
00:41:41,190 –> 00:41:45,030
shrug and go whatever. Okay. But I

664
00:41:45,030 –> 00:41:48,710
think that in that generational turnover, I do

665
00:41:48,710 –> 00:41:52,505
think that, we are in the midst of and this is a

666
00:41:52,505 –> 00:41:56,345
larger idea that I explore on this podcast. We’re in the middle of

667
00:41:56,424 –> 00:42:00,260
in the United States anyway. And also I think in Canada Tom, although I

668
00:42:00,260 –> 00:42:03,859
think it’s a little bit harder to see in Canada. We’re in the middle of

669
00:42:03,859 –> 00:42:07,160
a or we’re at the end of a historical

670
00:42:07,845 –> 00:42:11,525
cycle. We’re at the end of a historical seculum cycle, an

671
00:42:11,525 –> 00:42:14,965
80 year cycle. Yep. And at the end of an 80 year cycle, there’s always

672
00:42:14,965 –> 00:42:18,030
chaos in the last 20 to 25 years at the end of a at the

673
00:42:18,030 –> 00:42:20,350
end of a cycle. But then on the other side of that is a new

674
00:42:20,350 –> 00:42:23,455
cycle that starts sort of like winter going into turning, right?

675
00:42:24,575 –> 00:42:28,185
And this is from the ideas of William Strauss and Neil Howe, The fourth

676
00:42:28,255 –> 00:42:32,015
Turning. I really bought into that sort

677
00:42:32,015 –> 00:42:35,589
of idea because I think it explains a lot of this generational

678
00:42:35,809 –> 00:42:39,650
the generational differences narrowly in leadership, but also communication and a whole lot of other

679
00:42:39,650 –> 00:42:43,425
places. Because and this is why I bring

680
00:42:43,425 –> 00:42:47,265
this up because I think. Gen Xers who

681
00:42:47,265 –> 00:42:50,625
in general are in their mid forties to touching on their early

682
00:42:50,625 –> 00:42:54,110
sixties now. Are people who

683
00:42:54,170 –> 00:42:57,690
are going to have to lead in that in the

684
00:42:57,690 –> 00:43:01,345
next spring. But unfortunately, a lot of us,

685
00:43:01,345 –> 00:43:05,185
because we’ve just been surviving the last 25 years and adapting to

686
00:43:05,185 –> 00:43:08,670
chaos that has basically just been going on

687
00:43:08,670 –> 00:43:12,350
since, at least in my life, chaos has been going on since 2,001, since

688
00:43:12,350 –> 00:43:15,924
September 11th happened. Like, bagged. That was the beginning of chaos, and it’s just been

689
00:43:15,924 –> 00:43:19,684
chaos year on year on year on year on year on year. You get

690
00:43:19,684 –> 00:43:23,420
into a certain sense of adaptability as a leader. Yep. And there’s

691
00:43:23,420 –> 00:43:26,560
always another brick, not shoe. There’s always other brick that’s dropping.

692
00:43:27,740 –> 00:43:31,555
And so when spring comes, you don’t believe it. And you’re the cynical

693
00:43:31,935 –> 00:43:35,375
old, Sorrells, ladies, but you’re the cynical old guy

694
00:43:35,375 –> 00:43:39,220
leader who no one wants to listen to because now there’s spring

695
00:43:39,220 –> 00:43:43,060
and there’s hopefulness. And I think millennials sense

696
00:43:43,060 –> 00:43:46,820
that something else is coming as a generational cohort, but they don’t have the words

697
00:43:46,820 –> 00:43:50,565
to describe it. And then you’ve got Gen Zers, or, yes,

698
00:43:50,565 –> 00:43:54,325
Gen Zers, who are, number 1, scare the hell out of millennials, which

699
00:43:54,325 –> 00:43:57,704
I find to be amusing. But then number 2 right. I just laugh. That’s just

700
00:43:57,704 –> 00:44:01,380
Tom makes me giggle. That makes me giggle. But but then

701
00:44:01,380 –> 00:44:05,220
number 2, in Gen Z, you see a

702
00:44:05,220 –> 00:44:08,395
split between folks who

703
00:44:09,734 –> 00:44:13,494
they don’t want to return to mass leadership, but they don’t

704
00:44:13,494 –> 00:44:17,060
know how to describe their need for leadership. And then you’ve

705
00:44:17,060 –> 00:44:20,900
got the people who are just very just very individualistic, and

706
00:44:20,900 –> 00:44:23,934
they’re just gonna they’re just gonna run on the thing they’re gonna run on. And

707
00:44:23,934 –> 00:44:26,974
they have no time for the other the the mass folks. They just don’t and

708
00:44:26,974 –> 00:44:29,855
so they just don’t talk because they understand how the Internet works because they were

709
00:44:29,855 –> 00:44:32,654
born in it. And they understand how social media works, so they just they just

710
00:44:32,654 –> 00:44:35,625
don’t engage. They used to go in for their own silos. There’s an individual thing,

711
00:44:35,625 –> 00:44:38,784
and they’re just gonna drive. They’re just gonna drive. They’re just gonna drive. They’re just

712
00:44:38,784 –> 00:44:42,153
gonna drive. I’ve been I’ve met a lot of Gen z ers who are very,

713
00:44:42,153 –> 00:44:44,964
very strong workers and very, very good team players,

714
00:44:46,224 –> 00:44:49,025
who do who refuse to make any

715
00:44:51,060 –> 00:44:54,820
on a Tom, they refuse to give pushback to other Gen

716
00:44:54,820 –> 00:44:58,200
Zers who are engaging badly or who are behaving badly.

717
00:44:58,525 –> 00:45:01,645
And then you’ve got Gen Xers who are trying to lead these teams fourth older

718
00:45:01,645 –> 00:45:05,244
millennials who are trying to lead these Tom. And they’re like, I

719
00:45:05,244 –> 00:45:09,070
don’t know what’s happening here. And we see

720
00:45:09,070 –> 00:45:12,590
this sort of in the split between, folks

721
00:45:12,590 –> 00:45:16,290
who I’m just gonna use the the public example.

722
00:45:16,625 –> 00:45:18,085
Folks who are very loudly,

723
00:45:20,224 –> 00:45:23,905
promoters of DEI in various

724
00:45:23,905 –> 00:45:27,530
organizations and cultures and the and everybody else who just sort sits quietly by and

725
00:45:27,530 –> 00:45:31,369
just kinda hangs out. Yeah. I think that is

726
00:45:31,369 –> 00:45:35,005
definitely something that is appearing

727
00:45:35,224 –> 00:45:38,285
to be very prevalent. Where you’ve got this divide

728
00:45:39,305 –> 00:45:42,940
between those that are vocal. They’re pushed. They’re

729
00:45:42,940 –> 00:45:46,320
more engaged, they’re dynamic, versus those who are more

730
00:45:46,620 –> 00:45:50,380
complacent, quiet, get down, they do their thing. And it’s not that they

731
00:45:50,380 –> 00:45:53,375
don’t work or anything. But there’s that divide.

732
00:45:54,234 –> 00:45:58,075
But I do wonder though Tom your point about the internet. Did

733
00:45:58,075 –> 00:46:01,609
the internet create this

734
00:46:01,609 –> 00:46:05,369
distinction more definedly? Did

735
00:46:05,369 –> 00:46:09,065
it really bring it to the surface? Something that has always been there

736
00:46:09,065 –> 00:46:12,744
generation to generation to generation? Because it speaks partly to

737
00:46:12,744 –> 00:46:16,204
people’s personality. Some people are quieter, withdrawn people.

738
00:46:16,430 –> 00:46:19,870
Mhmm. Others are more loud in your face. It’s

739
00:46:19,870 –> 00:46:23,550
their fundamental personality. Yeah.

740
00:46:23,550 –> 00:46:27,045
Okay. Some people argue you can change your personality. However,

741
00:46:27,825 –> 00:46:31,665
is that any different to what the the baby boomers

742
00:46:31,665 –> 00:46:35,410
were when they were the age of the mania. But

743
00:46:35,410 –> 00:46:37,830
it wasn’t societally,

744
00:46:39,090 –> 00:46:42,865
the the perception was different. Right. Yeah.

745
00:46:42,865 –> 00:46:46,385
I I think that’s the thing. Writers? So so history doesn’t

746
00:46:46,385 –> 00:46:49,905
repeat. It just echoes. Right? And

747
00:46:49,905 –> 00:46:53,450
so boomers have now taken on the role

748
00:46:53,990 –> 00:46:57,350
that the World War 2 generation, the couple of World War 2

749
00:46:57,350 –> 00:47:01,035
generations, both the silent generation and the generation that fought in World War 2 because

750
00:47:01,035 –> 00:47:04,875
there’s a split there. But, you know, they’ve now

751
00:47:04,875 –> 00:47:08,619
taken on the role that those folks took. But

752
00:47:08,619 –> 00:47:12,000
because I think of the Internet and the applications built on the Internet,

753
00:47:12,779 –> 00:47:16,135
I think you’re correct. The the The cultural

754
00:47:16,355 –> 00:47:19,735
disintegration that took place around those structures

755
00:47:21,075 –> 00:47:24,775
has allowed those structures to be the institutions, Tom be the new

756
00:47:24,810 –> 00:47:28,610
that’s what everybody,

757
00:47:28,610 –> 00:47:30,750
I think, is trying to figure out. Right. And I don’t think there’s a good

758
00:47:32,704 –> 00:47:35,984
that’s what everybody, I think, is trying to figure out. Right. And I don’t think

759
00:47:35,984 –> 00:47:39,105
there’s a good answer for this. I think we’re all kind of grasping for what

760
00:47:39,105 –> 00:47:42,930
the answer is. And I I I’m and I think this

761
00:47:42,930 –> 00:47:46,450
is where leadership comes in because I think fundamentally at the end of

762
00:47:46,450 –> 00:47:49,830
the day, and this is how I run my consultancy

763
00:47:50,130 –> 00:47:53,954
leadership toolbox, and this is how I do, you know, you know, not

764
00:47:53,954 –> 00:47:57,795
only this podcast, but also coaching and book writing and

765
00:47:57,795 –> 00:48:01,474
all that. I fundamentally believe that, and you talked about self

766
00:48:01,474 –> 00:48:04,930
aware, I frame it as the intentional application

767
00:48:05,310 –> 00:48:08,910
of effective leadership practices. Things that have worked as human

768
00:48:08,910 –> 00:48:12,724
beings haven’t changed in 10000 years or 6000 years, depending upon what

769
00:48:12,724 –> 00:48:16,484
your number is that you’d like to use. Human beings still need the

770
00:48:16,484 –> 00:48:20,309
same things they needed back when we were rubbing 2 sticks together turning to make

771
00:48:20,309 –> 00:48:24,150
a fire. Correct. None of that’s changed. Yep.

772
00:48:24,150 –> 00:48:27,589
The the circumstances of the environment may have shifted

773
00:48:27,589 –> 00:48:31,035
around, but the basic needs are the same.

774
00:48:31,655 –> 00:48:33,815
And that’s why we do this podcast in the way we do it because you

775
00:48:33,815 –> 00:48:37,420
could find out some of that stuff in old books versus the brand new

776
00:48:37,420 –> 00:48:41,180
shiny business book. And that aspect, you know, so coming back to the

777
00:48:41,180 –> 00:48:44,755
whole leadership thing in the context of this, nothing has changed. Human beings are

778
00:48:44,755 –> 00:48:48,195
still human beings. They still have their fundamental needs. And

779
00:48:48,195 –> 00:48:51,769
whatever those are, but we all have them. What I

780
00:48:51,769 –> 00:48:54,990
think has shifted is the rate of change of technology

781
00:48:56,009 –> 00:48:59,369
Mhmm. Is something that a lot of people might be

782
00:48:59,369 –> 00:49:02,845
struggling to stay on top of, keep up with.

783
00:49:03,145 –> 00:49:06,745
Mhmm. Right? You’ve got a lot of baby boomers who quite

784
00:49:06,745 –> 00:49:10,160
frankly are struggling to wrap their head around anything and everything Internet

785
00:49:10,160 –> 00:49:13,680
related email and forget social media on top of that. That’s just

786
00:49:13,680 –> 00:49:17,475
another headache to learn. The the millennials and the

787
00:49:17,475 –> 00:49:21,235
gen, gen z’s, well, that’s natural

788
00:49:21,235 –> 00:49:24,730
for them. They just get it. But when they are 20,

789
00:49:24,730 –> 00:49:28,430
30, 40 years from now, what technology

790
00:49:28,810 –> 00:49:32,250
that they are having to deal with and its rate of change

791
00:49:32,825 –> 00:49:36,605
Right. Are they going to be experiencing the similar sort of struggle

792
00:49:37,065 –> 00:49:40,505
to what the baby boomers today are? And and you can look through every

793
00:49:40,505 –> 00:49:44,070
generation. It has its Sorrells to deal with the change

794
00:49:44,610 –> 00:49:48,070
that is being experienced in society at large.

795
00:49:49,010 –> 00:49:51,830
So let’s talk a little bit about artificial intelligence because

796
00:49:52,994 –> 00:49:56,764
this, every leadership consultant who I’ve ever talked to leadership,

797
00:49:56,835 –> 00:49:59,836
author performance leadership,

798
00:50:00,590 –> 00:50:03,090
project management, whatever. Right. Coaching

799
00:50:04,590 –> 00:50:06,130
everybody’s holding their breath.

800
00:50:08,005 –> 00:50:11,525
Yes. Trying to see, just like Peter just held his breath

801
00:50:11,525 –> 00:50:14,984
there, trying to see how these

802
00:50:15,400 –> 00:50:18,920
how these algorithms, a, are going to go to scale, and,

803
00:50:18,920 –> 00:50:22,460
b, disintermediate what we do.

804
00:50:23,400 –> 00:50:27,235
Now I fundamentally am not holding my breath, and maybe that’s

805
00:50:27,235 –> 00:50:30,915
just my level of ignorance of the science and the engineering behind it as a

806
00:50:30,915 –> 00:50:34,290
humanities major, but I look at all these algorithms

807
00:50:34,670 –> 00:50:37,970
in their current state, and I think

808
00:50:40,105 –> 00:50:41,964
I don’t really have anything to worry about.

809
00:50:45,065 –> 00:50:48,720
Well, then and then you get those people who look at movies

810
00:50:48,720 –> 00:50:52,520
like Terminator and go, crap. What are we in for? You’re right. Yeah. Like,

811
00:50:52,520 –> 00:50:56,335
if like, you know, Boston Dynamics, I wish they’d Tom making the robots and then

812
00:50:56,335 –> 00:50:59,295
making the videos that show us the robots that can stand up once they’ve been

813
00:50:59,295 –> 00:51:03,055
knocked over. Stop it. Has anybody ever stop it, you people. It’s

814
00:51:03,135 –> 00:51:06,530
this is what I’m talking. This gets back to my idea about, oh, it’s just

815
00:51:06,530 –> 00:51:10,370
a bug, not a feature. Quit with the engineering. Like,

816
00:51:10,370 –> 00:51:14,210
stop it. Stop it. Getting humanoid robots

817
00:51:14,210 –> 00:51:17,015
is not an engineering problem. Stop.

818
00:51:18,035 –> 00:51:21,255
It’s actually a leadership problem. It’s actually a leadership problem.

819
00:51:21,635 –> 00:51:24,295
No. And are there those people

820
00:51:27,420 –> 00:51:30,880
at the engineer level, at the doer level,

821
00:51:31,180 –> 00:51:34,905
and at the leadership level who want to develop, oh,

822
00:51:34,905 –> 00:51:38,505
we want the greatest AI thing there is. You know, there there is a race,

823
00:51:38,505 –> 00:51:42,040
and you read through all the the literature out there

824
00:51:42,040 –> 00:51:45,880
talking about gen AI and all of that. There is a race to

825
00:51:45,880 –> 00:51:49,500
who can who can create the next best

826
00:51:51,305 –> 00:51:54,665
language algorithm, who can create the next best feature

827
00:51:54,665 –> 00:51:58,425
set, who can oh, yeah. You know, ChatGPT came out

828
00:51:58,425 –> 00:52:01,930
in November of 22. Mhmm. And now we’re looking at

829
00:52:02,010 –> 00:52:05,690
well, ChatGPT is advanced with version 4. Now

830
00:52:05,690 –> 00:52:09,470
you can create sound or a person’s voice

831
00:52:10,065 –> 00:52:13,845
blank, and you wouldn’t know the difference. You can create video. You can create images.

832
00:52:13,905 –> 00:52:17,345
Well, we couldn’t do that. What’s that? Year and a half

833
00:52:17,345 –> 00:52:21,050
ago, but we came down. So what is the next iteration?

834
00:52:21,190 –> 00:52:24,870
Where is that going? The older generation, I think it does

835
00:52:24,870 –> 00:52:28,470
freak out a little bit. Where can it go? And how, well, you know, what

836
00:52:28,470 –> 00:52:32,235
what’s it mean? The younger generation, I think,

837
00:52:32,235 –> 00:52:36,075
is split in terms of its embracing of that. Mhmm.

838
00:52:36,075 –> 00:52:39,170
Oh, yeah. No. This is great. Let’s do it. Yeah. Well, hang on. You know?

839
00:52:39,170 –> 00:52:41,990
I mean, I don’t know. I’m I’m not so sure.

840
00:52:43,010 –> 00:52:46,645
But is that a feature of this

841
00:52:46,645 –> 00:52:49,785
generation, or is it just a technology

842
00:52:51,205 –> 00:52:55,019
that has got two sides to it? So I

843
00:52:55,019 –> 00:52:58,079
take the posture that or I take the position.

844
00:53:00,859 –> 00:53:04,575
Versus a humorous one. I always think of Marty McFly in Book

845
00:53:04,575 –> 00:53:08,095
to the Future when he goes back to, when he goes in Back to the

846
00:53:08,095 –> 00:53:11,790
Future 2, when he when he’s in Hill Valley And, he’s

847
00:53:11,790 –> 00:53:14,990
standing there in front of the movie theater, and the 3 d jaws shark comes

848
00:53:14,990 –> 00:53:18,775
out, and he freaks out and he, like, books. And, like, the shark, like, bites

849
00:53:18,775 –> 00:53:21,815
and then because it’s the ad for the it’s the ad for, like, jaws in

850
00:53:21,815 –> 00:53:24,855
3 d or whatever. Yeah. And it, like, bites him and then it shrinks back

851
00:53:24,855 –> 00:53:27,495
into the into the movie theater. Then he stands up and looks around, and, of

852
00:53:27,495 –> 00:53:30,700
course, nobody else is looking around. They’re all like, but when you do it, you

853
00:53:30,700 –> 00:53:34,539
idiot, like, it’s in 3 d thing. And he goes he

854
00:53:34,539 –> 00:53:38,155
shakes his head a little bit, and Michael j Fox goes, Shark still

855
00:53:38,155 –> 00:53:41,695
looks fake. He Sorrells walks away.

856
00:53:43,835 –> 00:53:47,680
Yes. So, you know, because I’m a cinema guy. Like, I’m

857
00:53:47,680 –> 00:53:50,799
a movie guy, so I’m like, oh, that’s that’s so that’s the first thing I

858
00:53:50,799 –> 00:53:54,585
think of in relation to all of this. Like, I long I

859
00:53:54,585 –> 00:53:58,025
long ago wrote a a series of blog posts about

860
00:53:58,025 –> 00:54:01,785
how I thought, and and and nobody read them at the time, and maybe I

861
00:54:01,785 –> 00:54:05,430
should republish them, about how Google as a search

862
00:54:05,430 –> 00:54:09,030
engine was going to leap, was going to be the 1st internet

863
00:54:09,030 –> 00:54:12,250
company that was going to escape the internet into the real.

864
00:54:13,495 –> 00:54:17,115
I firmly believe that the I still firmly believe that that’s the path they’re on.

865
00:54:17,335 –> 00:54:20,910
They’re trying to get out of the box. They’re trying to get out of the

866
00:54:20,910 –> 00:54:24,349
box of the Internet. They’re trying to get out of the box of your

867
00:54:24,349 –> 00:54:26,930
computer or your mobile device because

868
00:54:28,515 –> 00:54:32,275
their stated goal is to collect all the data in the world.

869
00:54:32,275 –> 00:54:35,875
That’s their stated goal. Well, there’s a whole

870
00:54:35,875 –> 00:54:39,350
bunch of data that’s outside of the Internet

871
00:54:40,210 –> 00:54:43,970
that they need to get to if that’s their stated goal. And so if

872
00:54:43,970 –> 00:54:47,785
you just look around. Everything

873
00:54:47,785 –> 00:54:51,465
that I am surrounded by that you’re surrounded by, you have a bookshelf in

874
00:54:51,465 –> 00:54:55,200
your office. I got a bookshelf in my office. You’ve got computers, You’ve got your

875
00:54:55,200 –> 00:54:58,920
your biometrics. You’ve got your your book fourth bio your your actual biology

876
00:54:58,920 –> 00:55:02,420
of your body. That’s all data. Right? These are all data points.

877
00:55:02,655 –> 00:55:06,015
Yep. We don’t think of the world in that kind of Tom. But if you’re

878
00:55:06,015 –> 00:55:08,575
Google, that’s how you think about the world. And so you gotta get out of

879
00:55:08,655 –> 00:55:12,275
you gotta get outside of the box you’re trapped in.

880
00:55:12,740 –> 00:55:16,579
And I think the large language algorithms, that’s the next step. You talk about

881
00:55:16,579 –> 00:55:20,415
voice, you talk about video, you talk about images. I think

882
00:55:20,415 –> 00:55:24,255
the next step is try to get that out of the Internet and

883
00:55:24,255 –> 00:55:27,695
get it into the real world, kind of like a

884
00:55:27,695 –> 00:55:31,190
reverse sort of matrix kind of idea.

885
00:55:33,650 –> 00:55:36,130
Do I think that that will be a good thing or a bad thing? We’re

886
00:55:36,130 –> 00:55:39,415
going to talk about ethics here in a minute. We can have that conversation,

887
00:55:40,035 –> 00:55:43,395
but I do think at a practical level, it is being looked at as a

888
00:55:43,395 –> 00:55:46,660
engine engineering problem to be solved. Yep. Versus

889
00:55:47,680 –> 00:55:51,440
a versus something that

890
00:55:51,440 –> 00:55:52,980
probably should be left alone.

891
00:55:55,775 –> 00:55:58,095
And I do think that’s the next step. I do. I do with those large

892
00:55:58,095 –> 00:56:00,455
English. I think they’re going to escape the Internet. I do. I think they’re going

893
00:56:00,455 –> 00:56:03,000
to escape the Internet. They’re going to be walking around the real world with us,

894
00:56:03,080 –> 00:56:06,860
which is going to create all other kinds of complications, that

895
00:56:07,320 –> 00:56:11,000
we, in our postmodern conception of

896
00:56:11,000 –> 00:56:14,755
reality, don’t have the words or the

897
00:56:14,755 –> 00:56:18,455
ideas to wrap our arms around, but I think

898
00:56:18,595 –> 00:56:20,535
a lot of pre modern

899
00:56:22,520 –> 00:56:25,900
societies had the words and the language to wrap their arms around.

900
00:56:26,680 –> 00:56:30,200
I sometimes frame it as postmodern problems have pre modern

901
00:56:30,200 –> 00:56:33,855
solutions, but we don’t wanna learn any of the pre modern solutions because

902
00:56:33,855 –> 00:56:35,475
we’re too sophisticated for that.

903
00:56:37,455 –> 00:56:40,880
Partly because we are stuck in when we were that

904
00:56:40,880 –> 00:56:44,640
age and wrapped our minds around what

905
00:56:44,640 –> 00:56:48,180
was then postmodern. Writers, exactly. Yeah.

906
00:56:49,615 –> 00:56:52,734
These are just thoughts I have in my head about about artificial intelligence. I’m open

907
00:56:52,734 –> 00:56:56,175
to being I’m open to being wrong. You know, maybe it will all be

908
00:56:56,175 –> 00:56:59,860
paradisiacal and and awesome. And, you know, the algorithm will give me

909
00:56:59,860 –> 00:57:03,540
everything that I desire. We’ll build our own gods Tom paraphrase from

910
00:57:03,540 –> 00:57:07,204
Google Gemini. Yeah. And I think you

911
00:57:07,285 –> 00:57:10,665
what you’ve just said there, I think, is the key thing from a leadership standpoint

912
00:57:10,964 –> 00:57:14,800
Mhmm. Remember is that well, there’s still

913
00:57:14,940 –> 00:57:18,620
you and I around. There’s still all of our employees around. The

914
00:57:18,620 –> 00:57:22,380
human factor. Mhmm. If we take the human factor out of this

915
00:57:22,380 –> 00:57:25,925
from a leadership as a leader in

916
00:57:26,385 –> 00:57:30,065
embracing AI, doesn’t matter what you’re doing with

917
00:57:30,238 –> 00:57:32,405
Tom. Mhmm. You’re just embracing it.

918
00:57:33,710 –> 00:57:37,490
Leadership is fourth humans. You don’t need to lead

919
00:57:38,110 –> 00:57:41,816
an AI model. You do not need to lead a robot. You just give it

920
00:57:41,816 –> 00:57:44,815
defined instructions, and it does because it has no emotion. Instructions, and it does because

921
00:57:44,815 –> 00:57:48,255
it has no emotion. Right. Human beings have

922
00:57:48,255 –> 00:57:51,615
emotion. They have reason they have the ability to

923
00:57:51,615 –> 00:57:55,280
reason. That’s where leadership is

924
00:57:55,280 –> 00:57:59,040
key. And you cannot you cannot take leadership and the human factor

925
00:57:59,040 –> 00:58:02,020
and separate it and bring AI into a place.

926
00:58:02,725 –> 00:58:06,245
Right. Right. Yeah. I often think of Star Trek. I mean, the next

927
00:58:06,245 –> 00:58:10,085
generation, like data. Data was an Android. And

928
00:58:10,085 –> 00:58:13,490
when data was driving the ship, the ship was driven by artificial intelligence.

929
00:58:14,109 –> 00:58:17,710
Correct. So it’s a machine driving another machine. But you still had

930
00:58:17,710 –> 00:58:21,515
human beings walking around inside of that machine dealing with each other.

931
00:58:22,295 –> 00:58:25,974
Exactly. And that’s the thing we mustn’t forget is there’s always a

932
00:58:25,974 –> 00:58:29,660
human factor in everything that we do. Right. And

933
00:58:29,680 –> 00:58:33,500
leadership will always deal with the humans. Okay. So let’s talk

934
00:58:33,500 –> 00:58:37,135
about dealing with the humans. Let’s let’s move fourth maybe this

935
00:58:37,293 –> 00:58:41,115
fourth of technical sort of algorithmic conversation to to more maybe

936
00:58:41,115 –> 00:58:42,255
more of a human one.

937
00:58:45,470 –> 00:58:48,450
All things I struggle with as a leadership

938
00:58:49,950 –> 00:58:52,430
guy. And maybe you can help me out with some of this. You can help

939
00:58:52,430 –> 00:58:55,895
me walk through some of these areas,

940
00:58:58,835 –> 00:59:01,734
because maybe you’re seeing the same thing. So

941
00:59:02,760 –> 00:59:06,540
I am on a mission to make people competent.

942
00:59:08,360 –> 00:59:11,984
Okay. Because I think that the decline

943
00:59:11,984 –> 00:59:15,585
in competency you talked about 2020, I think a lot of things happened in

944
00:59:15,585 –> 00:59:19,240
2020. A lot of people were given and I’m going to use the

945
00:59:19,240 –> 00:59:22,700
broad term people, but I actually think it was leadership teams and organizations

946
00:59:23,160 –> 00:59:26,380
and cultures were given permission. They were granted permission

947
00:59:27,115 –> 00:59:30,474
to let competency slide because we had a public

948
00:59:30,474 –> 00:59:33,615
emergency fourth perceived public emergency.

949
00:59:34,930 –> 00:59:38,530
And so when it perceived public emergency, every, the

950
00:59:38,530 –> 00:59:42,290
discipline kind of falls apart because people

951
00:59:42,290 –> 00:59:45,974
are in panic mode. Writers. And the longer

952
00:59:46,194 –> 00:59:49,875
that emergency was allowed to continue, rightly

953
00:59:49,875 –> 00:59:53,255
or wrongly, the fourth the discipline

954
00:59:54,170 –> 00:59:57,930
around competency loosened up and loosened up and loosened up. And

955
00:59:57,930 –> 01:00:01,450
now we’re in a situation where we can see

956
01:00:01,450 –> 01:00:05,095
incompetency all around us. But to stand

957
01:00:05,095 –> 01:00:08,775
up and say that is looked at as

958
01:00:08,775 –> 01:00:12,055
being disagreeable or being the dirty end of the stick. And I’m actually I’ve I’ve

959
01:00:12,055 –> 01:00:15,670
recently had a had a.

960
01:00:15,670 –> 01:00:19,510
Business interaction around this space, which is kind of why I’m thinking about it. So

961
01:00:19,510 –> 01:00:23,345
importantly, right now, I recently had a business interaction around this space

962
01:00:23,345 –> 01:00:27,105
with a third party client that we do some work with without

963
01:00:27,105 –> 01:00:30,940
going into names or the specific situation. But

964
01:00:31,080 –> 01:00:34,840
but basically, we’ve decided to

965
01:00:34,840 –> 01:00:38,620
end our relationship with that third party client because of

966
01:00:39,435 –> 01:00:42,955
incompetencies on their part that were not in evidence before

967
01:00:42,955 –> 01:00:46,635
2020. I don’t think that

968
01:00:46,635 –> 01:00:50,270
we’re alone in seeing this as a firm. I think

969
01:00:50,270 –> 01:00:53,470
this is everywhere. I think people can see this everywhere. I think we can see

970
01:00:53,470 –> 01:00:56,770
this most notably in the decline of customer service when we go into retail.

971
01:00:57,245 –> 01:01:00,625
Like we can see this. So how do we as leaders

972
01:01:03,405 –> 01:01:07,160
ensure competency? By the way, another example of this, when the bridge

973
01:01:07,160 –> 01:01:10,620
in Baltimore, was hit by the cargo ship,

974
01:01:12,360 –> 01:01:15,735
tragic accident, took a lot of people’s lives,

975
01:01:16,435 –> 01:01:20,275
you know, essays all the caveats. Right. And I read

976
01:01:20,275 –> 01:01:23,820
a story because this drove me crazy. This drove me over a cliff

977
01:01:24,380 –> 01:01:28,220
where the engineers were estimating that it

978
01:01:28,220 –> 01:01:30,640
would take 10 years to rebuild that bridge.

979
01:01:32,164 –> 01:01:35,924
And I thought, is that because we

980
01:01:35,924 –> 01:01:38,825
don’t have competent enough people to put up that bridge

981
01:01:39,730 –> 01:01:42,289
Or is that because and I kind of went on a little bit of a

982
01:01:42,289 –> 01:01:45,829
rip on this on LinkedIn? Or is this because we we have

983
01:01:45,970 –> 01:01:49,455
people who have overemphasized empathy

984
01:01:49,994 –> 01:01:53,755
and underemphasized being disagreeable? Because sometimes

985
01:01:53,755 –> 01:01:57,480
you gotta be disagreeable to put up a bridge really fast so that commerce

986
01:01:57,540 –> 01:01:58,680
can continue. Right.

987
01:02:01,300 –> 01:02:05,140
And so this, this idea of competency versus empathy, or maybe if it’s, maybe

988
01:02:05,140 –> 01:02:08,805
it’s even competency versus agreeableness. I think this is something

989
01:02:08,805 –> 01:02:12,405
else that we’re struggling with on the human end. And I think that

990
01:02:12,405 –> 01:02:16,005
leaders are struggling with this most most importantly right

991
01:02:16,005 –> 01:02:19,430
now. Or of wanting to

992
01:02:19,430 –> 01:02:22,730
avoid some form of conflict disagreement.

993
01:02:23,825 –> 01:02:27,525
And instead of utilizing conflict to come up with a better solution,

994
01:02:28,305 –> 01:02:30,805
everybody just apathetically says

995
01:02:31,820 –> 01:02:35,580
Right. Want fourth doesn’t get involved fourth, you know, there’s

996
01:02:35,580 –> 01:02:38,320
various ways that apathy can manifest itself.

997
01:02:40,375 –> 01:02:42,795
Which leads to more incompetency because

998
01:02:44,535 –> 01:02:48,375
iron sharpens iron. To paraphrase Tom to phrase phrase that, a horary old book of

999
01:02:48,375 –> 01:02:52,030
the bible. You know, iron sharpens iron. Right?

1000
01:02:52,030 –> 01:02:55,789
And so how do I get better? How do I become more competent?

1001
01:02:55,789 –> 01:02:59,535
Well, it isn’t through avoiding the conflict, and and maybe it’s because

1002
01:02:59,535 –> 01:03:03,295
I’m a conflict management guy too. Like, I don’t avoid conflict. Like, it’s fine. Like,

1003
01:03:03,295 –> 01:03:06,380
let’s let’s have an argument. Let’s figure it out.

1004
01:03:07,080 –> 01:03:10,839
We can disagree without being disagreeable. Exactly. I

1005
01:03:10,839 –> 01:03:14,535
think that’s one of the challenges that exist is people are not willing

1006
01:03:14,535 –> 01:03:18,375
to to put their view on the

1007
01:03:18,375 –> 01:03:21,974
table for the fear of creating an argument. Well, I’ve got other

1008
01:03:21,974 –> 01:03:25,480
things to do. I’m not gonna say anything. I mean, the reasoning can

1009
01:03:25,480 –> 01:03:29,320
be can be a myriad of things. I think

1010
01:03:29,320 –> 01:03:33,015
you’re right that 2020 was a divide, a threshold in

1011
01:03:33,015 –> 01:03:36,715
in some ways where competency was allowed

1012
01:03:36,935 –> 01:03:40,760
to slip. Mhmm. Because, oh, you know, well, they,

1013
01:03:40,760 –> 01:03:44,440
this, they, that, whatever. Does that

1014
01:03:44,440 –> 01:03:48,185
mean as leaders we should be less competent leaders?

1015
01:03:49,525 –> 01:03:53,285
Does that mean we should just allow people just to

1016
01:03:53,285 –> 01:03:56,690
sink back Tom sit back, to

1017
01:03:56,690 –> 01:04:00,530
withdraw from becoming the

1018
01:04:00,530 –> 01:04:04,265
best they can be? Because that’s one of the things a leader

1019
01:04:04,265 –> 01:04:07,485
should be doing, is working with it

1020
01:04:08,025 –> 01:04:11,869
their employees to be the best they can be. How else do you

1021
01:04:11,869 –> 01:04:15,710
get a successful organization? How do you how else do you get the

1022
01:04:15,710 –> 01:04:19,470
best product on the market? Well AI might seem to

1023
01:04:19,470 –> 01:04:23,295
be the antithesis of this where there is but

1024
01:04:23,295 –> 01:04:27,135
it’s the newest thing on the block. So everyone’s dung ho about it.

1025
01:04:27,135 –> 01:04:30,435
Everybody, oh, this is thing. You know, let’s go go go go go.

1026
01:04:30,960 –> 01:04:34,799
I mean, we thought of the Internet, you know, 2020.com Tom all

1027
01:04:34,799 –> 01:04:38,339
of that lot was a class at 20 2000, sorry, not 2020,

1028
01:04:38,799 –> 01:04:42,305
you know, the whole Tom era. Mhmm. Are we seeing that

1029
01:04:42,305 –> 01:04:45,905
again? And everything else is being allowed to be to

1030
01:04:45,905 –> 01:04:49,410
slip in terms of its competency Libby? My question is,

1031
01:04:49,490 –> 01:04:52,230
who’s slipping on its competency at that point?

1032
01:04:53,250 –> 01:04:55,750
Is it the worker, or is it the leader?

1033
01:04:58,635 –> 01:05:02,315
Always and it always one contingent not an easy contingent,

1034
01:05:02,315 –> 01:05:05,755
but as a result of the other. Well, if leadership is

1035
01:05:05,755 –> 01:05:09,250
fundamentally relationally based, which I do believe it is,

1036
01:05:09,250 –> 01:05:12,930
only remember exchange theory tells us that, but also

1037
01:05:12,930 –> 01:05:15,349
just the practical ways in which we see

1038
01:05:16,355 –> 01:05:19,795
leadership developing, but in our own lives tells us that this is a

1039
01:05:19,795 –> 01:05:23,494
relational act. And so I think the

1040
01:05:23,954 –> 01:05:27,800
the the team member or worker or employee, or however you want

1041
01:05:27,800 –> 01:05:31,500
to frame it, gets emotional cues

1042
01:05:31,880 –> 01:05:35,105
from the leader and the leader gets emotional

1043
01:05:35,245 –> 01:05:39,085
cues from the team member. And now we’re in this now

1044
01:05:39,085 –> 01:05:42,460
they’re they’re book they’re all in this hot house, right, of

1045
01:05:42,460 –> 01:05:46,220
emotional turning. And to your point earlier, if the

1046
01:05:46,220 –> 01:05:49,974
leader isn’t self aware enough, they could easily

1047
01:05:50,035 –> 01:05:51,815
be drawn into, I think

1048
01:05:53,714 –> 01:05:56,535
they could be drawn by the siren song of

1049
01:05:59,309 –> 01:06:03,150
becoming undisciplined in certain areas. Yep. Very much

1050
01:06:03,150 –> 01:06:03,650
so.

1051
01:06:11,365 –> 01:06:14,190
How is how do I as a leader I’m going to ask you this fourth

1052
01:06:14,190 –> 01:06:17,230
a conflict management guy, because I think I know what the answer is, but I

1053
01:06:17,230 –> 01:06:20,130
want Tom, let’s see what your answer is. So how do I, as a leader

1054
01:06:20,349 –> 01:06:23,315
manage conflict effectively, in particular,

1055
01:06:24,975 –> 01:06:28,415
I’m on a diverse I’m leading a team of diverse people, a team of always

1056
01:06:28,415 –> 01:06:32,160
people have always been diverse. But I’m leading a I’m leading a team of diverse

1057
01:06:32,160 –> 01:06:35,300
people post 2020,

1058
01:06:36,080 –> 01:06:39,545
post I’m gonna go here, post George Floyd,

1059
01:06:39,744 –> 01:06:43,525
writers? Post all of that. Writers. And now we’re into a space

1060
01:06:43,525 –> 01:06:47,340
where particularly in the United States, I don’t know how it is in

1061
01:06:47,340 –> 01:06:50,720
in Canada, but particularly in the United States where,

1062
01:06:53,475 –> 01:06:56,995
diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts are being

1063
01:06:56,995 –> 01:06:59,815
pulled back, by major corporations,

1064
01:07:01,150 –> 01:07:04,829
but pulled back in the sense that they are being repackaged and put in different

1065
01:07:04,829 –> 01:07:08,510
spots to avoid government regulators and to avoid law

1066
01:07:08,589 –> 01:07:10,049
the law looking at them.

1067
01:07:12,315 –> 01:07:16,075
But on the ground, and I’m hearing this from real people working in real corporations

1068
01:07:16,075 –> 01:07:19,319
on real teams, this kind of stuff is still happening. You know? And and by

1069
01:07:19,319 –> 01:07:23,119
the way, this kind of stuff, meaning the trainings that divide and fragment

1070
01:07:23,119 –> 01:07:26,500
people based on identity. Right? The

1071
01:07:26,895 –> 01:07:30,655
the ways in which people are labeled and put into their own little

1072
01:07:30,655 –> 01:07:34,415
boxes based on their sexual orientation or their

1073
01:07:34,415 –> 01:07:38,030
racial designation or their ethnic background. We’re also

1074
01:07:38,030 –> 01:07:41,710
seeing in the culture in the United States increasing pressure being

1075
01:07:41,710 –> 01:07:44,610
placed on organizations and corporations from the outside

1076
01:07:45,230 –> 01:07:48,734
around geopolitical moments that are

1077
01:07:48,734 –> 01:07:52,255
occurring, as in the Ukraine, Israel versus

1078
01:07:52,255 –> 01:07:56,000
Hamas, da da da da da. Right? These these external social and political

1079
01:07:56,000 –> 01:07:59,760
pressures are being paced on leaders and on Tom. Well, on organizations first,

1080
01:07:59,760 –> 01:08:03,454
and then it filters down into leaders and teams. And then we throw into,

1081
01:08:03,454 –> 01:08:07,214
then we throw ESG into there where corporations are

1082
01:08:07,214 –> 01:08:07,714
being.

1083
01:08:10,950 –> 01:08:13,670
What’s the word I’m looking for? They’re being

1084
01:08:14,630 –> 01:08:18,335
no. Yeah. I coerced.

1085
01:08:18,555 –> 01:08:22,075
Okay. Yeah. No. That’s the hard word, but it’s probably the right one, are being

1086
01:08:22,075 –> 01:08:25,775
coerced into following along with with mandates from

1087
01:08:26,130 –> 01:08:28,229
governmental entities that

1088
01:08:29,890 –> 01:08:33,330
in very many cases don’t match what’s going on in the real world that they

1089
01:08:33,330 –> 01:08:36,595
could really see. Okay. So you’ve got these you’ve got these these things that are

1090
01:08:36,595 –> 01:08:40,354
pushing on on organizations, which then in turn push on

1091
01:08:40,354 –> 01:08:44,109
leadership, which then in turn push on teams. And at a at a

1092
01:08:44,330 –> 01:08:47,689
very practical level, leaders are looking at their diverse

1093
01:08:47,689 –> 01:08:51,450
teams, and they’re asking the question, how can I

1094
01:08:51,450 –> 01:08:54,844
have a conflict here to grow in competency when there’s all

1095
01:08:54,844 –> 01:08:58,684
these to paraphrase an overused word fourth to use an overused word? There’s all

1096
01:08:58,684 –> 01:09:02,069
these triggers all around, and I feel like I’m walking into a

1097
01:09:02,069 –> 01:09:05,750
landmine every time I talk to, you know, my 14 people.

1098
01:09:05,750 –> 01:09:09,029
How can I have an honest conversation with them? I’m just trying to not hit

1099
01:09:09,029 –> 01:09:12,765
any landmines. What do we say what do you say to leaders like

1100
01:09:12,765 –> 01:09:14,845
that? Because I I have an idea what the answer is, but what do you

1101
01:09:14,845 –> 01:09:18,125
say to leaders like that who who may who may be asking those kinds of

1102
01:09:18,125 –> 01:09:21,399
questions? Maybe I look at things slightly a little bit differently.

1103
01:09:21,939 –> 01:09:25,700
Sure. Yeah. Maybe. Conflict. I will put I will put it

1104
01:09:25,700 –> 01:09:29,145
that. Conflict isn’t a bad

1105
01:09:29,145 –> 01:09:32,524
thing. I mean, I I think society has placed this,

1106
01:09:32,744 –> 01:09:36,258
oh, conflict is bad. Oh, you got to avoid it. Yes. You got the Jesan.

1107
01:09:36,344 –> 01:09:39,850
They are People have the personality trait that are conflict

1108
01:09:39,850 –> 01:09:42,750
avoidant. Mhmm. Conflict.

1109
01:09:44,090 –> 01:09:47,825
I mean, when book at the root word of conflict, I

1110
01:09:47,825 –> 01:09:51,345
mean, it goes back to we had the conflict between this

1111
01:09:51,345 –> 01:09:54,720
nation and that nation. That’s where it was

1112
01:09:54,720 –> 01:09:58,480
armed conflict. Somebody had to die. Somebody had to there had to be a winner

1113
01:09:58,480 –> 01:10:00,900
and there had to be a loser. That is our

1114
01:10:02,255 –> 01:10:05,955
presumption as to what conflict constitutes. So

1115
01:10:06,095 –> 01:10:09,855
leader has conflict with team team there. Somebody’s got to lose. Somebody’s

1116
01:10:09,855 –> 01:10:13,590
got to win. That’s just the way it is. Whereas

1117
01:10:15,010 –> 01:10:18,850
if you look at conflict, and maybe conflict is the wrong word to

1118
01:10:18,850 –> 01:10:22,515
use, maybe we need to create a new word. That just a thought

1119
01:10:22,515 –> 01:10:26,195
that popped into my head right now. But,

1120
01:10:26,195 –> 01:10:29,255
you know, it’s a points of view.

1121
01:10:30,489 –> 01:10:33,630
You you have a different point of view to I,

1122
01:10:34,409 –> 01:10:37,389
and Mary has a different point of view yet again.

1123
01:10:38,094 –> 01:10:41,795
Does Tom mean everybody’s point of view other than mine

1124
01:10:41,935 –> 01:10:45,295
is wrong? Well no. Now you’re potentially creating

1125
01:10:45,295 –> 01:10:49,010
conflict. However, can I learn something from your

1126
01:10:49,010 –> 01:10:52,530
point of view and Mary’s point of view and

1127
01:10:52,530 –> 01:10:56,345
John’s point of view if we were to share our

1128
01:10:56,345 –> 01:10:59,785
points of view so that we

1129
01:10:59,785 –> 01:11:03,530
understand why you have that point of view and you

1130
01:11:03,530 –> 01:11:06,969
have that point of view? We have a much better

1131
01:11:06,969 –> 01:11:10,270
understanding of everybody around the table

1132
01:11:11,075 –> 01:11:13,815
and can therefore come up with a much better solution

1133
01:11:14,995 –> 01:11:18,355
to the challenges that we are facing. As opposed to

1134
01:11:18,355 –> 01:11:21,020
viewing it as conflict

1135
01:11:21,800 –> 01:11:25,560
between on a Tom. It’s conflict on a

1136
01:11:25,560 –> 01:11:29,055
team between leader and employees or and their team or

1137
01:11:30,095 –> 01:11:33,935
if I wonder, looking at the origins of

1138
01:11:33,935 –> 01:11:37,320
the word conflict, if we’re using the wrong word.

1139
01:11:40,980 –> 01:11:44,715
Maybe we’re using the wrong word. I I’d be open to the idea we could

1140
01:11:44,715 –> 01:11:48,255
use a different word, like disputes or disagreements, maybe.

1141
01:11:48,635 –> 01:11:50,895
Disagree. Differences of opinion.

1142
01:11:53,420 –> 01:11:57,260
Yeah. Yeah. I’d be, I’d be open to using a different word. I think there’s

1143
01:11:57,260 –> 01:12:01,105
also, so we, we demand, we are increasingly demanding of

1144
01:12:01,105 –> 01:12:04,864
our leaders, without really

1145
01:12:04,864 –> 01:12:08,304
getting a response by the way, from them, which I also think is driving average

1146
01:12:08,304 –> 01:12:11,590
people nuts. And they don’t really know why, but

1147
01:12:12,530 –> 01:12:13,970
we are asking our

1148
01:12:14,027 –> 01:12:17,810
leaders. And increasingly, I

1149
01:12:17,810 –> 01:12:21,215
think the term is demanding of our leaders that they have

1150
01:12:21,215 –> 01:12:24,010
epistemic, they possess epistemic humanities.

1151
01:12:24,895 –> 01:12:28,740
Doctor. Yes. Doctor. In a way that we weren’t demanding of them, as we were

1152
01:12:28,740 –> 01:12:32,580
previously talking about a few minutes ago, we weren’t demanding that

1153
01:12:32,580 –> 01:12:36,340
of them during the mass leadership of the 20th century, because there

1154
01:12:36,340 –> 01:12:40,135
was just trust there. Right. Yeah. We just trusted

1155
01:12:40,135 –> 01:12:43,035
Henry Ford to, you know,

1156
01:12:43,655 –> 01:12:47,035
create a business. And if he had epistemic humility

1157
01:12:47,700 –> 01:12:51,380
or if he didn’t have it, that wasn’t what we were looking for. We

1158
01:12:51,380 –> 01:12:54,740
were trusting in his competency to build Ford Motor Company

1159
01:12:54,791 –> 01:12:58,545
fourth we were trusting in

1160
01:12:58,545 –> 01:13:02,145
Steve Jobs to build Apple, or we

1161
01:13:02,145 –> 01:13:05,449
were trusting in whoever, you know,

1162
01:13:06,010 –> 01:13:09,710
even our presidents. We were trusting our presidents to lead the country.

1163
01:13:10,250 –> 01:13:13,389
Mhmm. With the breakup of trust

1164
01:13:13,955 –> 01:13:17,474
and the United States is still a high trust society, more so than

1165
01:13:17,474 –> 01:13:20,835
most societies in the world, even though that trust has

1166
01:13:20,835 –> 01:13:24,570
declined. With the with the decline

1167
01:13:24,570 –> 01:13:28,250
of trust in leadership, we are

1168
01:13:28,250 –> 01:13:31,230
asking our leaders to be more epistemically humble,

1169
01:13:32,425 –> 01:13:36,264
and our leaders don’t know how to ask, and this

1170
01:13:36,264 –> 01:13:40,105
is this is where where the and the disagreements really begin to occur, I

1171
01:13:40,105 –> 01:13:43,900
think. I don’t think leaders understand how to ask their teams

1172
01:13:44,599 –> 01:13:46,860
to exhibit more epistemic humility.

1173
01:13:48,994 –> 01:13:52,435
Right. And you I think you’ve got a valid point there. And I I

1174
01:13:52,435 –> 01:13:56,034
wanna bring around from a different tact to this is what we

1175
01:13:56,034 –> 01:13:59,860
mentioned earlier on. When you

1176
01:13:59,860 –> 01:14:01,640
understand who you are.

1177
01:14:06,275 –> 01:14:10,035
When you understand who you are, other people on your team have

1178
01:14:10,035 –> 01:14:13,440
needs, have desires enough are

1179
01:14:13,440 –> 01:14:17,120
fundamentally human beings like you. Is that where we’re

1180
01:14:17,120 –> 01:14:20,660
coming at from the need for this level of humility

1181
01:14:21,445 –> 01:14:25,205
and understanding that leaders we demanding of

1182
01:14:25,205 –> 01:14:28,940
leaders to have. Because it’s not just the humanities. It’s an understanding. But

1183
01:14:28,940 –> 01:14:32,160
you cannot gain an understanding without seeking

1184
01:14:32,300 –> 01:14:34,880
information in order to understand.

1185
01:14:35,740 –> 01:14:39,315
Right. So all we’re

1186
01:14:39,315 –> 01:14:43,155
asking our leaders without actually saying it, oh, you gotta

1187
01:14:43,155 –> 01:14:46,690
be more humble and blah blah, all of that lot, Find

1188
01:14:46,690 –> 01:14:50,530
out more about the people on your team. When you

1189
01:14:50,530 –> 01:14:54,210
look at this great resignation that 2020 kicked into high gear

1190
01:14:54,770 –> 01:14:58,175
Mhmm. It brought what was brewing underneath to the

1191
01:14:58,175 –> 01:15:01,315
surface. And that and what that fundamentally

1192
01:15:01,535 –> 01:15:05,190
simplistically phrased was, I’m an individual. I have needs

1193
01:15:05,190 –> 01:15:08,710
and I want to feel valued. What are you gonna do to what what

1194
01:15:08,710 –> 01:15:12,415
contribution do I make to this organization other than

1195
01:15:12,415 –> 01:15:16,175
to be a number on a leaders, and I get paid basically on to do

1196
01:15:16,255 –> 01:15:20,030
to put 2 nuts and bolts together. You know, very simplistically.

1197
01:15:20,090 –> 01:15:23,690
But it it it serves a point. People

1198
01:15:23,690 –> 01:15:26,270
wanna feel valued. And our leaders,

1199
01:15:28,255 –> 01:15:31,855
what is being demanded of leaders is to see their people as

1200
01:15:31,855 –> 01:15:35,614
human beings. This comes back to the human

1201
01:15:35,614 –> 01:15:39,300
factor I mentioned. Is that what we’re demanding?

1202
01:15:39,300 –> 01:15:42,680
Maybe we’re phrasing it again wrong

1203
01:15:42,980 –> 01:15:46,785
and just using the word humility. What else is there? Being human.

1204
01:15:49,245 –> 01:15:52,765
What is human what is a humanity perspective in the

1205
01:15:52,765 –> 01:15:56,600
context of this? Well, I think so

1206
01:15:56,600 –> 01:16:00,360
if I’m sitting the essence of what leadership is, you mentioned a moment

1207
01:16:00,360 –> 01:16:03,740
ago, it’s relational. Right. Relational can only exist

1208
01:16:04,275 –> 01:16:07,795
between 2 human beings. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.

1209
01:16:07,795 –> 01:16:10,755
So if I’m sitting around let me make this very practical. So if I’m sitting

1210
01:16:10,755 –> 01:16:14,199
around a table with fourth members of my team,

1211
01:16:14,260 –> 01:16:18,019
right, I, as a leader of

1212
01:16:18,019 –> 01:16:19,713
that small Tom,

1213
01:16:24,285 –> 01:16:28,130
am resuming, for lack of a better word, that the

1214
01:16:28,130 –> 01:16:31,650
people who are coming to this table with their opinions and their

1215
01:16:31,650 –> 01:16:34,950
ideas, are the best people

1216
01:16:35,489 –> 01:16:39,175
to be sitting at that table. I’m presuming that even before

1217
01:16:39,175 –> 01:16:42,135
I start having a conversation about a, about a problem that we need to solve

1218
01:16:42,135 –> 01:16:45,026
or a project we need to start. Writers?

1219
01:16:46,300 –> 01:16:50,060
I think where the frustration for leaders comes in and which is

1220
01:16:50,060 –> 01:16:53,900
probably why they they’re not evincing the humility necessary in

1221
01:16:53,900 –> 01:16:56,864
all Tom. And by the way, I think it I think it’s easier to evince

1222
01:16:56,864 –> 01:17:00,005
that humility the smaller and smaller the team is. Right?

1223
01:17:00,385 –> 01:17:03,985
So True. If if you got 4 to 6 people, there’s

1224
01:17:03,985 –> 01:17:07,429
nowhere to hide. There’s nowhere to hide with your ego.

1225
01:17:07,969 –> 01:17:11,570
There’s nowhere to hide with being incompetent. There’s nowhere to

1226
01:17:11,570 –> 01:17:15,285
hide with having with having the ability to not face conflict. There’s nowhere

1227
01:17:15,285 –> 01:17:18,965
to hide with a lack of self awareness because everybody can see that. Now,

1228
01:17:18,965 –> 01:17:22,805
but now when you go to scale, when you go above Dunbar’s number,

1229
01:17:22,877 –> 01:17:26,630
writers, when you go above that number of folks, now there’s plenty of places

1230
01:17:26,630 –> 01:17:29,830
for the leader to hide. There’s also plenty of places for the team member to

1231
01:17:29,830 –> 01:17:33,405
hide. Don’t get me wrong. But there’s plenty of places for the leader to

1232
01:17:33,405 –> 01:17:37,165
hide their own incompetency, their own fear,

1233
01:17:37,165 –> 01:17:40,980
their own lack of of humility. So I think

1234
01:17:40,980 –> 01:17:44,659
that if I’m on a small team, I

1235
01:17:44,659 –> 01:17:48,260
have to trust that those people are the right people. But as the

1236
01:17:48,260 –> 01:17:51,225
team gets bigger, the trust level falls.

1237
01:17:55,045 –> 01:17:58,420
Yes. That is that is invariably the

1238
01:17:58,420 –> 01:18:01,960
perception of what happens. Not that it doesn’t actually happen.

1239
01:18:02,179 –> 01:18:05,825
But trust all because, well, I’m just 1 or 20, now

1240
01:18:05,825 –> 01:18:09,105
30, now 4 whatever number of people. Right. You don’t

1241
01:18:10,305 –> 01:18:13,665
because the leaders in at that junction not able to interact

1242
01:18:13,665 –> 01:18:17,460
with the individual. He’s now interact

1243
01:18:17,619 –> 01:18:21,380
or she is interacting with a a mass. The

1244
01:18:21,380 –> 01:18:24,505
mass. Yeah. Right. So there’s that mass concept.

1245
01:18:24,965 –> 01:18:28,805
Again, therein lies the problem. So how do you deal with conflict

1246
01:18:28,805 –> 01:18:31,065
at that point? How do you deal with all of this?

1247
01:18:33,820 –> 01:18:37,360
The bigger the team, the harder it is to

1248
01:18:38,060 –> 01:18:41,555
find fourth get agreement across the board and the

1249
01:18:41,555 –> 01:18:45,095
commitment to to whatever is agreed. Mhmm. Absolutely.

1250
01:18:46,675 –> 01:18:50,480
Does that mean that the team is too big? And

1251
01:18:50,480 –> 01:18:54,320
I’m gonna I’m gonna challenge it and say that the answer is yes. It is

1252
01:18:54,320 –> 01:18:57,699
too big. Yeah. Because reality is how many people can you lead?

1253
01:18:59,055 –> 01:19:02,815
Oh, you can’t go above double digits. I I think

1254
01:19:02,815 –> 01:19:06,390
you can. I think I think your ratio is 1 to 8. 1 to 8?

1255
01:19:06,610 –> 01:19:09,490
1 to 8. And I think you’re really and I think you’re really pushed it

1256
01:19:09,490 –> 01:19:13,295
at that point too. Absolutely. So, you know, if you get 10, you’re you

1257
01:19:13,295 –> 01:19:16,435
I’ve gotta be really, really, really, really good. Right.

1258
01:19:18,495 –> 01:19:22,179
And that’s another conversation. But, you’re right. Tom might be

1259
01:19:22,260 –> 01:19:25,940
it’s it’s about where when you look at all the literature and you look at

1260
01:19:25,940 –> 01:19:29,000
the almost anecdotal evidence.

1261
01:19:29,540 –> 01:19:33,195
Mhmm. You know, my own anecdotal evidence

1262
01:19:33,195 –> 01:19:36,715
suggests I can’t leave more than 8 people. Right. I

1263
01:19:36,875 –> 01:19:40,660
well, there’s enough examples going back that

1264
01:19:40,660 –> 01:19:44,420
you can see that. I mean, even biblical examples, you can’t more than

1265
01:19:44,420 –> 01:19:48,125
about 8 people. Really, it’s a small number of people. So how

1266
01:19:48,125 –> 01:19:51,965
do you structure? Because at that point, when you’ve got a small group of people,

1267
01:19:51,965 –> 01:19:55,340
you can deal with the notion of conflict fourth the word using the word

1268
01:19:55,340 –> 01:19:58,940
conflict and what that means. Because you don’t have as

1269
01:19:58,940 –> 01:20:02,559
many diverse opinions and you don’t have people rallying behind

1270
01:20:03,265 –> 01:20:07,105
and and creating, factions. That’s the

1271
01:20:07,105 –> 01:20:10,790
problem with larger teams. You create factions. Mhmm. And And then they start

1272
01:20:10,790 –> 01:20:14,489
in then you get the infighting that goes on, and you’ll never reach a resolution.

1273
01:20:15,750 –> 01:20:19,110
So how do we so if I’m if I’m beating a large

1274
01:20:19,110 –> 01:20:22,395
corporation, or even just a small

1275
01:20:22,935 –> 01:20:25,835
a small one. Right? Like, 5,000

1276
01:20:26,295 –> 01:20:27,675
employees. Right?

1277
01:20:32,030 –> 01:20:35,389
What is the best way to construct a

1278
01:20:35,389 –> 01:20:37,090
leadership ecosystem?

1279
01:20:39,775 –> 01:20:43,535
Well, the first is creating the the high level, the

1280
01:20:43,535 –> 01:20:47,270
executive team leadership ecosystem. That’s the

1281
01:20:47,270 –> 01:20:50,889
first one that needs to exist because from everything else flows.

1282
01:20:51,270 –> 01:20:54,935
Mhmm. So embrace

1283
01:20:55,395 –> 01:20:58,535
now I’m gonna use the word conflict again, but embrace that

1284
01:20:58,755 –> 01:21:01,655
within utilize it to get

1285
01:21:02,560 –> 01:21:06,240
understanding and get agreement and

1286
01:21:06,240 –> 01:21:09,864
then commitment. So you’re cohesive around that. Everybody

1287
01:21:09,864 –> 01:21:13,625
agrees to it because everybody understands it. That

1288
01:21:13,625 –> 01:21:17,065
example of leading and creating that alignment within that

1289
01:21:17,065 –> 01:21:20,790
executive Tom, is what each one of those leaders then

1290
01:21:20,790 –> 01:21:24,630
takes to their immediate Tom. And it fosters the

1291
01:21:24,630 –> 01:21:28,435
same process. That’s the I mean, this is ideal. Absolutely. I get

1292
01:21:28,435 –> 01:21:31,655
it. Mhmm. But you gotta start somewhere.

1293
01:21:33,370 –> 01:21:37,130
So you start with that executive team and let that flow through.

1294
01:21:37,130 –> 01:21:40,750
Now there’s a concept known as customer driven leadership. Mhmm.

1295
01:21:41,325 –> 01:21:45,165
And that’s and and the premise there is is that the

1296
01:21:45,165 –> 01:21:48,765
CEO is serving his executive team. The executive team is

1297
01:21:48,765 –> 01:21:52,570
serving the next level team that exists and so on and so forth till

1298
01:21:52,570 –> 01:21:56,110
you get to the frontline team that is serving the the customer, the clients.

1299
01:21:56,410 –> 01:22:00,225
Mhmm. And that service. So you’re taking the traditional pyramid and you’re inverting it.

1300
01:22:00,225 –> 01:22:02,645
You’re inverting it. Yep. Okay. So

1301
01:22:03,745 –> 01:22:07,550
you’re serving, serving up. And if you really wanna take that Tom

1302
01:22:07,550 –> 01:22:11,390
any degree, you’re serving fourth clients to serve their clients and

1303
01:22:11,390 –> 01:22:15,125
so on. But but when when you look

1304
01:22:15,125 –> 01:22:18,565
at that model, I am here as CEO, I’m to serve my

1305
01:22:18,565 –> 01:22:22,345
executive team. How do I do that best? How do I

1306
01:22:23,800 –> 01:22:27,639
create the alignments, the cohesion? How do I get them all to

1307
01:22:27,639 –> 01:22:30,679
commit? Now there’s a number of different elements you’ve got to deal with on all

1308
01:22:30,679 –> 01:22:33,885
of that. There’s trust factors you’ve got to know. You really want to know who

1309
01:22:33,885 –> 01:22:37,665
the individual is, what motivates them, what drives them, why they,

1310
01:22:37,725 –> 01:22:41,340
what trips them up, what sabotages them, all of these

1311
01:22:41,340 –> 01:22:45,100
things. The more you know about them, you understand. Oh, now I

1312
01:22:45,100 –> 01:22:48,935
understand why Shazan did that. Mhmm. Because of

1313
01:22:48,935 –> 01:22:52,695
that, because this factor, that factor, what it is. Now

1314
01:22:52,695 –> 01:22:55,515
I have understanding, I can give you some empathy.

1315
01:22:56,920 –> 01:23:00,520
The moment that is, now you suddenly feel more inclusive. Now you feel,

1316
01:23:00,520 –> 01:23:04,120
okay. Now I I don’t feel like the enemy. I’m trying to do things. Now

1317
01:23:04,120 –> 01:23:07,645
you know why I’m doing whatever. But now there’s understanding.

1318
01:23:07,864 –> 01:23:11,545
Hey. How can I support you? Now you get other people on the

1319
01:23:11,545 –> 01:23:15,239
executive team that can support you too, and that goes

1320
01:23:15,239 –> 01:23:18,920
all the way around the table. Yep. People then have a different

1321
01:23:18,920 –> 01:23:22,520
perspective of, oh, this is what leadership is. If I don’t do that, wow. Aren’t

1322
01:23:22,520 –> 01:23:26,285
that? Okay. Now can I do that with my team? Because that’s what I want

1323
01:23:26,285 –> 01:23:30,065
on my team. So that the executives are taking it one level lower.

1324
01:23:30,810 –> 01:23:34,110
And so that goes down throughout the organization.

1325
01:23:34,890 –> 01:23:38,490
Yes, the bigger the organization, the heck of a lot more work it is, but

1326
01:23:38,490 –> 01:23:42,195
you gotta start somewhere. Right. Right. And and and what

1327
01:23:42,195 –> 01:23:45,875
else are you gonna do with your with your life? Like, really, like, what else

1328
01:23:45,875 –> 01:23:48,375
are you gonna do? Okay.

1329
01:23:51,489 –> 01:23:55,010
Let’s turn and talk a little bit about ethics, because you mentioned the word

1330
01:23:55,010 –> 01:23:58,534
alignment, and I love that word. That was a, that was a key word, in

1331
01:23:58,534 –> 01:24:01,515
our consultancy for many, many years was

1332
01:24:03,175 –> 01:24:06,780
we are going to help managers and supervisors, the

1333
01:24:06,780 –> 01:24:10,480
much put upon middle managers, get alignment

1334
01:24:10,939 –> 01:24:13,440
writers with their teams, with themselves, with the culture.

1335
01:24:14,405 –> 01:24:18,165
Because what we were seeing, what I was seeing was misalignment all

1336
01:24:18,165 –> 01:24:21,766
over the place. And misalignment of course leaders

1337
01:24:21,844 –> 01:24:25,219
to fourth maybe misunderstandings lead to misalignment. I don’t know.

1338
01:24:25,599 –> 01:24:28,900
Which invariably leads to miscommunication, which invariably

1339
01:24:28,960 –> 01:24:31,955
leads to the the word we keep using, but we need to find a better

1340
01:24:31,955 –> 01:24:35,395
one for, what I call false conflict or fake

1341
01:24:35,395 –> 01:24:39,235
conflict, conflict that doesn’t need to doesn’t need to happen.

1342
01:24:39,235 –> 01:24:41,530
And by the way, I think a lot of this misalignment

1343
01:24:42,869 –> 01:24:45,050
in organizations and cultures post 2020,

1344
01:24:46,550 –> 01:24:50,135
has occurred because of that that loss of that

1345
01:24:50,135 –> 01:24:53,895
loss of of the of the tightening of the discipline, the the more fourth apathy,

1346
01:24:53,895 –> 01:24:57,570
right, in the system, which has allowed space for misalignment

1347
01:24:58,110 –> 01:25:01,790
to to to be all over the place, and in

1348
01:25:01,790 –> 01:25:05,635
general has allowed false or fake conflict. And I,

1349
01:25:05,635 –> 01:25:09,394
and I do think fundamentally that most of the conflicts that we have around

1350
01:25:09,394 –> 01:25:12,994
identity inside of our cultures or inside of organizations are not

1351
01:25:12,994 –> 01:25:16,740
real conflicts. That’s not that’s not real. That’s not what

1352
01:25:16,740 –> 01:25:20,360
it’s really about. It’s about wanting to be seen

1353
01:25:20,533 –> 01:25:24,244
fourth it’s about wanting to be recognized fourth honestly, and I think this is

1354
01:25:24,244 –> 01:25:26,985
a lot of it, it’s wanting to redress

1355
01:25:27,844 –> 01:25:31,670
grievances that are individualized to that organization, to that

1356
01:25:31,670 –> 01:25:34,250
team, to that culture that were never addressed previously.

1357
01:25:35,110 –> 01:25:38,945
Absolutely. To an individual’s satisfaction. Might have

1358
01:25:38,945 –> 01:25:42,324
been addressed to the organization or the corporate culture satisfaction,

1359
01:25:42,625 –> 01:25:46,180
but not to the individual’s satisfaction. Because the

1360
01:25:46,180 –> 01:25:50,020
individual is never seen. Well, and and because

1361
01:25:50,020 –> 01:25:52,740
and because this goes back to the tension that I said about having our cell

1362
01:25:52,740 –> 01:25:56,515
phones, We live now. This is the thing that’s happening on the other

1363
01:25:56,515 –> 01:26:00,355
end as it when I go to work, I’m

1364
01:26:00,355 –> 01:26:04,070
part of a mass. Right. But when I look at my phone, I’m

1365
01:26:04,070 –> 01:26:06,570
not. There’s a tension there.

1366
01:26:07,507 –> 01:26:11,335
Writers. And no organization right

1367
01:26:11,335 –> 01:26:14,155
now, not even a government,

1368
01:26:15,574 –> 01:26:19,420
is not anywhere on the globe that I’m aware of. Maybe Canada, it’s

1369
01:26:19,420 –> 01:26:23,200
different. Writers? Maybe in Europe, it’s different, but no organization,

1370
01:26:23,260 –> 01:26:26,640
no government I’ve heard of is addressing that tension

1371
01:26:27,205 –> 01:26:30,745
and is seeking to solve that. No. Because

1372
01:26:32,645 –> 01:26:36,324
it’s there in lies the biggest one of the biggest problems with leadership, and

1373
01:26:36,324 –> 01:26:40,070
that’s your ego. Right. Well, and it works for me, right,

1374
01:26:40,070 –> 01:26:43,829
to have that tension. No. There you go. Now you now you hit

1375
01:26:43,829 –> 01:26:46,250
on something there. Yes. It does work.

1376
01:26:48,215 –> 01:26:51,815
Because it keeps people in line. Right? It keeps them you know, they’re gonna keep

1377
01:26:51,815 –> 01:26:54,215
coming to work. It’s it’s like a fish with a it’s like a fish with

1378
01:26:54,215 –> 01:26:57,140
a hook in it. Right? Like, you’re gonna you’re gonna keep turning on it. Eventually,

1379
01:26:57,140 –> 01:27:00,660
it’s gonna become your your meal. Yeah. It keeps

1380
01:27:00,660 –> 01:27:03,720
working as long as everything else falls in line with it.

1381
01:27:04,395 –> 01:27:08,155
Right. Except the problem except one of the problems is as

1382
01:27:08,155 –> 01:27:11,695
misalignment then occurs between the individual and the organization,

1383
01:27:12,210 –> 01:27:15,969
the individual feels comfortable becoming more apathetic and less

1384
01:27:15,969 –> 01:27:19,650
competent at their work. And now the domino falls

1385
01:27:19,650 –> 01:27:23,375
into incompetency. And now we’re gonna talk about

1386
01:27:23,375 –> 01:27:27,135
unethical and unethical behavior. Now the door opens to unethical behavior.

1387
01:27:27,135 –> 01:27:30,900
And I think a lot of this false conflict falls underneath the realm of unethical

1388
01:27:30,900 –> 01:27:34,580
behavior. I’m not saying the grievance isn’t genuine. I

1389
01:27:34,580 –> 01:27:37,535
wanna be very clear on that. But I think the behavior

1390
01:27:38,315 –> 01:27:42,155
around the grievance is unethical. I don’t think it’s ethical for you to

1391
01:27:42,155 –> 01:27:45,789
do a a sit in like what recently happened Tom Google.

1392
01:27:45,849 –> 01:27:48,889
I’ll just use this as a big public example. I don’t think it’s ethical for

1393
01:27:48,889 –> 01:27:52,489
you to do a sit in in your boss’s office because of some political thing

1394
01:27:52,489 –> 01:27:56,205
that’s happening that has nothing. You could talk

1395
01:27:56,205 –> 01:27:59,665
all day you want about Google doing research for the Israeli Defense Forces.

1396
01:28:00,284 –> 01:28:03,470
If you’re a developer in some other part of Google

1397
01:28:04,030 –> 01:28:07,730
and you’re not working on that project, it has nothing to do with you.

1398
01:28:08,350 –> 01:28:11,170
Right? Right. Hey.

1399
01:28:11,905 –> 01:28:15,425
So why am I sitting in the office of some vice

1400
01:28:15,425 –> 01:28:18,805
president protesting to free Palestine?

1401
01:28:20,530 –> 01:28:24,370
My short answer is gonna be, and probably not the most popular answer, is

1402
01:28:24,370 –> 01:28:28,085
that your ego Tom satisfy you says I

1403
01:28:28,085 –> 01:28:31,525
can do that because I have a right to do that. Well that’s nothing but

1404
01:28:31,525 –> 01:28:34,905
an ego talking. Right.

1405
01:28:36,580 –> 01:28:40,180
Right. You have an opinion and you believe your opinion is right

1406
01:28:40,180 –> 01:28:43,945
and they should and others, whoever others are, should not

1407
01:28:43,945 –> 01:28:47,545
be doing that because I said so. 1 of the biggest problems we have

1408
01:28:47,545 –> 01:28:51,224
post 2020. Well, and and Google has now respond

1409
01:28:51,385 –> 01:28:54,940
not responded. Google. Well, yeah, Google reacted or

1410
01:28:54,940 –> 01:28:58,720
responded. But by turning those 20 people.

1411
01:28:59,335 –> 01:29:03,014
Yep. And I think that that’s probably the correct move for

1412
01:29:03,014 –> 01:29:06,775
Google. I’d fire those people. Those, those people you, you want to protest

1413
01:29:06,775 –> 01:29:10,010
if it were, if if if I’m the VP and you’re in my office

1414
01:29:10,710 –> 01:29:14,390
and you have nothing to do with this and you don’t work over here, or

1415
01:29:14,390 –> 01:29:17,565
even if you do and you haven’t brought this

1416
01:29:18,985 –> 01:29:22,665
grievance to me directly, instead, you staged a protest and you’ve

1417
01:29:22,665 –> 01:29:26,070
put a flag out and you’re chanting, you are fired.

1418
01:29:26,850 –> 01:29:30,630
Pack your box up and get out. There is the

1419
01:29:30,850 –> 01:29:34,685
you’re at I I I don’t disagree with the move. I will say

1420
01:29:34,685 –> 01:29:38,125
this though, and this is a caveat to that to me saying I don’t

1421
01:29:38,125 –> 01:29:40,385
disagree with the move, is that

1422
01:29:42,140 –> 01:29:45,500
did and and this comes back to the size of teams that we mentioned

1423
01:29:45,500 –> 01:29:47,840
earlier. Did relevant leaders,

1424
01:29:49,235 –> 01:29:52,755
were they aware of those

1425
01:29:52,755 –> 01:29:56,590
individuals, those 20 individuals motivation,

1426
01:29:57,690 –> 01:30:01,150
what would trigger them? Maybe completely

1427
01:30:01,210 –> 01:30:05,005
separate from a work issue as to why they did it. Sure. But

1428
01:30:05,005 –> 01:30:08,605
you have to ask from a leadership perspective, you have to ask the

1429
01:30:08,605 –> 01:30:12,045
question, what did leaders do or not do

1430
01:30:12,045 –> 01:30:15,820
that precipitated that action,

1431
01:30:15,820 –> 01:30:19,420
those actions of those 20 people? Well, and I’m going to and by the way,

1432
01:30:19,420 –> 01:30:22,835
before I before I fire you, I’m going to sit down every single one of

1433
01:30:22,835 –> 01:30:25,655
those individual 20. I’m going to sit them down individually,

1434
01:30:26,514 –> 01:30:30,320
and I’m going to say I’m not firing you for protesting. That’s not

1435
01:30:30,320 –> 01:30:34,100
why I’m firing you. I’m not firing you for executing on free speech.

1436
01:30:34,480 –> 01:30:38,160
Not doing that either. I’m firing you because I

1437
01:30:38,160 –> 01:30:38,660
failed.

1438
01:30:42,065 –> 01:30:45,745
To recognize what your motivations were in the internal Google

1439
01:30:45,745 –> 01:30:49,390
chat, the internal version of Google Slack, basically, that’s running

1440
01:30:49,390 –> 01:30:52,850
around and fomenting all of this. And because I failed

1441
01:30:53,390 –> 01:30:56,590
and my boss isn’t going to fire me, but I have the capability to fire

1442
01:30:56,590 –> 01:31:00,355
you. The consequence of my failure falls on you.

1443
01:31:00,494 –> 01:31:04,175
You have a good day. Pack up your boxes. You’re gone. Interesting ethical

1444
01:31:04,175 –> 01:31:07,614
question. Right. This becomes an ethical

1445
01:31:07,614 –> 01:31:10,340
question right now. The only way,

1446
01:31:11,440 –> 01:31:15,280
the only way that conversation actually works though, because I’m fairly

1447
01:31:15,280 –> 01:31:18,665
sure that VP or those VPs that fired those 20 people didn’t have that kind

1448
01:31:18,665 –> 01:31:21,865
of conversation with those folks. I’m fairly sure that’s not how it went. I would

1449
01:31:21,865 –> 01:31:25,600
agree. The only way that works is if

1450
01:31:25,600 –> 01:31:27,860
myself is the VP doing the firing

1451
01:31:29,360 –> 01:31:32,994
goes to my president and my books, and

1452
01:31:32,994 –> 01:31:36,755
I say to them, Jesan. The fact of

1453
01:31:36,755 –> 01:31:40,355
the matter is we have this Google internal Slack

1454
01:31:40,355 –> 01:31:43,989
channel that’s proven to be a real problem, and it’s been a

1455
01:31:43,989 –> 01:31:47,590
real problem for a while. We thought it would allow people

1456
01:31:47,590 –> 01:31:50,224
to blow off Tom,

1457
01:31:51,224 –> 01:31:54,684
around their their political progressive activist

1458
01:31:54,744 –> 01:31:58,100
tendencies. And that has not proven

1459
01:31:58,400 –> 01:32:02,160
to be what this tool has done as a result of

1460
01:32:02,160 –> 01:32:05,985
this tool, not turning, which

1461
01:32:05,985 –> 01:32:09,525
we did put in for ethical reasons, at least initially,

1462
01:32:10,224 –> 01:32:13,910
it has failed to work. And this is what I’m saying to my boss

1463
01:32:13,910 –> 01:32:16,730
because it’s failed to book. Now we have to fire these people.

1464
01:32:17,750 –> 01:32:21,525
But that failure is actually on us. So

1465
01:32:21,525 –> 01:32:24,185
what are we going to do to fix this? A, so it doesn’t happen again,

1466
01:32:24,645 –> 01:32:27,785
but also B, what are we going to do?

1467
01:32:28,550 –> 01:32:32,090
So that I don’t have to be placed in a position of leadership

1468
01:32:32,150 –> 01:32:35,910
failure? And I have to go

1469
01:32:35,910 –> 01:32:39,625
fire another subsequent 20 people for showing up for something else tomorrow. Oh,

1470
01:32:39,625 –> 01:32:42,585
and by the way, because I’m an ethical leader, I’m gonna take a 10% pay

1471
01:32:42,585 –> 01:32:46,380
cut on this this year. Just gonna put that on the table. Tom my

1472
01:32:46,380 –> 01:32:48,540
boss is, of course, gonna go, oh, no. No. You don’t have to do that,

1473
01:32:48,540 –> 01:32:52,380
like, 10%. There has to be some book. There has to be some

1474
01:32:52,380 –> 01:32:56,175
skin in the game as Nicholas Nassim Tyler would say, from all of us on

1475
01:32:56,175 –> 01:32:59,215
this. And by the way, me voluntarily putting that 10% on the table, that puts

1476
01:32:59,215 –> 01:33:01,614
pressure on you. And I know that’s what it does because this is the chess

1477
01:33:01,614 –> 01:33:05,403
game we’re in. And now you look like a fool if you don’t take that

1478
01:33:05,403 –> 01:33:08,230
Tom right. So this is the chess game we’re gonna play. So I’m gonna push

1479
01:33:08,230 –> 01:33:11,864
you into a position where you have to address this, number 1. But also

1480
01:33:11,864 –> 01:33:15,065
number 2, you have to look like you’ve got skin in the game in an

1481
01:33:15,065 –> 01:33:18,905
ethical way. I’m going to guarantee

1482
01:33:18,905 –> 01:33:22,560
you that that did not happen. I would guarantee that too. Yep.

1483
01:33:24,300 –> 01:33:28,060
How do we get ethical leaders to be

1484
01:33:28,060 –> 01:33:31,565
right to engage around this to to

1485
01:33:31,565 –> 01:33:34,925
engage in these spaces ethically and to to have those kinds of

1486
01:33:34,925 –> 01:33:38,704
conversations, not necessarily with their teams, which is interesting,

1487
01:33:39,050 –> 01:33:42,890
but with their bosses ethically. Because

1488
01:33:42,890 –> 01:33:46,730
ethics rolls uphill and the fish such as it were rots

1489
01:33:46,730 –> 01:33:50,475
from the head down. Yeah. And

1490
01:33:51,015 –> 01:33:54,855
that’s it’s one of the I’m gonna go so

1491
01:33:54,855 –> 01:33:58,280
far as to say it’s it is a systemic issue. Mhmm. In

1492
01:33:58,280 –> 01:34:02,040
that as you climb the ranks in a corporation, especially the

1493
01:34:02,040 –> 01:34:05,820
larger ones, you get sucked into the politic

1494
01:34:06,445 –> 01:34:09,885
the political shenanigans and

1495
01:34:09,885 –> 01:34:13,265
maneuvering that goes on because it is the only way to maneuver.

1496
01:34:13,725 –> 01:34:17,199
Mhmm. And and that

1497
01:34:17,739 –> 01:34:21,280
kind of then necessitates that you put ethics on the back burner

1498
01:34:21,659 –> 01:34:24,239
Mhmm. If you don’t dismiss it altogether.

1499
01:34:25,745 –> 01:34:29,205
Because your ambition, driven by your ego,

1500
01:34:29,665 –> 01:34:32,885
is to climb the rank and not to be held responsible

1501
01:34:33,390 –> 01:34:35,090
for that. There’s an interesting

1502
01:34:37,925 –> 01:34:41,410
book, Jako Wilnick,

1503
01:34:42,315 –> 01:34:45,995
Extreme Ownership. And it’s about the Navy SEALs. And I the

1504
01:34:46,075 –> 01:34:49,055
to me, this is the quintessential example of what

1505
01:34:49,840 –> 01:34:53,440
what does need to happen. Mhmm. Leaders need to take

1506
01:34:53,440 –> 01:34:57,039
ownership for everything that goes wrong even if they’re not the ones

1507
01:34:57,039 –> 01:35:00,635
who did it. Mhmm. But it is their

1508
01:35:00,635 –> 01:35:04,255
team who failed at something.

1509
01:35:04,715 –> 01:35:08,340
They, as a leaders, needs to take ownership fourth. What does that mean? It

1510
01:35:08,340 –> 01:35:11,880
doesn’t mean you take and everything falls on your head and, you know,

1511
01:35:12,100 –> 01:35:14,980
oh, book. You know, I’ll take the pay cut. I’ll take this. I’ll get fired.

1512
01:35:14,980 –> 01:35:18,685
All my team stays untouched. Now that’s not what that means. Mm-mm.

1513
01:35:18,685 –> 01:35:22,465
No. It means you take the responsibility for what happens,

1514
01:35:22,605 –> 01:35:25,905
and you work with your team to find a

1515
01:35:26,550 –> 01:35:30,310
solution. What failed? How do we correct it? What do we

1516
01:35:30,310 –> 01:35:34,125
need to change? What is the system, the process, Whatever that needs

1517
01:35:34,125 –> 01:35:37,665
to happen. So that this does not happen again.

1518
01:35:37,725 –> 01:35:41,565
That’s taking extreme ownership on the leaders part to initiate that

1519
01:35:41,565 –> 01:35:45,010
action. It’s not to be the one

1520
01:35:45,389 –> 01:35:49,010
to, to beat yourself up because of it. No.

1521
01:35:49,150 –> 01:35:52,895
That’s not what it means. And I think a lot of leaders miss

1522
01:35:52,895 –> 01:35:56,655
that component of leadership because it’s

1523
01:35:56,655 –> 01:36:00,420
it’s very interesting. When when a leader were to do that, the influence

1524
01:36:00,480 –> 01:36:02,820
they have over their team Mhmm.

1525
01:36:04,800 –> 01:36:08,635
Is completely unspoken, but is so powerful that

1526
01:36:08,635 –> 01:36:12,255
in fact is more powerful than the spoken at that point.

1527
01:36:14,235 –> 01:36:17,910
I’m glad you brought up Extreme Ownership because we’ve talked about that book on this

1528
01:36:17,910 –> 01:36:21,690
podcast. We’ve actually added a conversation. We’ll be releasing that,

1529
01:36:22,150 –> 01:36:25,985
later on this year, with another gentleman around Jocko

1530
01:36:25,985 –> 01:36:29,505
Willock’s book. We facilitated that book in our

1531
01:36:29,505 –> 01:36:33,320
consultancy, and information from that book combined with another

1532
01:36:33,320 –> 01:36:36,920
book called, the Oz Principle, which is about how you how

1533
01:36:36,920 –> 01:36:40,635
you scale up accountability. Because Jocko does an excellent

1534
01:36:40,635 –> 01:36:44,235
job of describing what ownership looks like, at a at an

1535
01:36:44,235 –> 01:36:48,075
individual and at a small team level. There are challenges when you

1536
01:36:48,075 –> 01:36:51,710
go to scale with that, though, and his book doesn’t address any of those, but

1537
01:36:51,710 –> 01:36:55,550
the Oz Principle, does. It addresses it very,

1538
01:36:55,550 –> 01:36:59,375
very well. And so we’ve actually combined those 2 books together and

1539
01:36:59,455 –> 01:37:02,435
gotten some really interesting insights out of it, particularly around alignment,

1540
01:37:02,975 –> 01:37:06,655
because. The, the misalignment around

1541
01:37:06,655 –> 01:37:10,320
ownership is this. So again,

1542
01:37:10,320 –> 01:37:14,000
I’m leading 6 people, writers? Cause I can’t lead more than that. Can’t lead

1543
01:37:14,000 –> 01:37:17,380
more than 6 to 8. Writers? Those people are

1544
01:37:18,515 –> 01:37:22,295
loyal to me because I’m exhibiting ownership,

1545
01:37:23,875 –> 01:37:27,590
in every single sphere of influence that I

1546
01:37:27,590 –> 01:37:31,350
touch, which of those 6 people are, fourth 6 to 8 people are working

1547
01:37:31,350 –> 01:37:35,035
for me. They’re all in my sphere of influence. Thus to your point, I’m

1548
01:37:35,035 –> 01:37:38,555
responsible for everything they do, and I’m responsible for

1549
01:37:38,555 –> 01:37:42,395
everything they don’t do. Now I’m effectively aligned.

1550
01:37:42,395 –> 01:37:45,980
And by the way, I tell them this. I don’t hide it from them. I

1551
01:37:45,980 –> 01:37:49,591
don’t, I don’t I don’t I don’t,

1552
01:37:49,980 –> 01:37:53,695
obvious skate on it. Right? I I actually tell them this is

1553
01:37:53,855 –> 01:37:57,375
I say it out loud. I’m I’m I’m in I’m not in charge of

1554
01:37:57,375 –> 01:38:01,099
saying I’m taking ownership over the whole team. I’m taking

1555
01:38:01,099 –> 01:38:04,940
ownership over these projects. Now what

1556
01:38:04,940 –> 01:38:08,780
that means is when you fail and eventually at a certain point, you will

1557
01:38:08,780 –> 01:38:12,364
on something, I’m going to take ownership of your failure because it will be something

1558
01:38:12,364 –> 01:38:16,065
that I didn’t do that allowed you to fail.

1559
01:38:17,300 –> 01:38:21,139
But it also remember I talked about that epistemic humility that has to be

1560
01:38:21,139 –> 01:38:24,980
on the part of both leaders and followers. I also need

1561
01:38:24,980 –> 01:38:28,665
you to take ownership of everything in your sphere of influence if I’m gonna do

1562
01:38:28,665 –> 01:38:32,345
this. And and that’s the absolute key thing because if I as a

1563
01:38:32,345 –> 01:38:36,140
leader take leadership, you as my

1564
01:38:36,520 –> 01:38:40,360
direct report, I’m gonna put it that way. Mhmm. You take ownership for what

1565
01:38:40,360 –> 01:38:43,935
you are doing with equally your Tom. Or even if it’s

1566
01:38:43,935 –> 01:38:47,775
only just you, you need to take ownership for you. Right.

1567
01:38:47,775 –> 01:38:51,429
Okay. So now we’re doing this. And I’m one team of

1568
01:38:51,429 –> 01:38:55,030
4 to 6 people, 6 to 8 people in a much

1569
01:38:55,030 –> 01:38:58,790
larger organization of 25,000 people. But my team is rocking and

1570
01:38:58,790 –> 01:39:02,415
rolling. My team is clicking. We’re getting

1571
01:39:02,415 –> 01:39:06,175
stuff out. We’re behaving competently. We’re having

1572
01:39:06,175 –> 01:39:09,989
disputes, but they’re not driven by ego. Our part

1573
01:39:09,989 –> 01:39:13,370
of whatever the process is that we own

1574
01:39:13,510 –> 01:39:17,265
is humming. And because it’s humming other

1575
01:39:17,265 –> 01:39:21,045
teams where it’s not humming, where there’s misalignment

1576
01:39:21,185 –> 01:39:24,870
on all those other teams and fake conflict and done it and all the Jesan

1577
01:39:24,890 –> 01:39:27,230
and that organization of 25,000 people,

1578
01:39:29,850 –> 01:39:33,070
all those other teams are jealous of us and are angry.

1579
01:39:34,065 –> 01:39:37,905
A resentful, claim that I’ve

1580
01:39:37,905 –> 01:39:41,685
got some Svengali mind control over my 68 people

1581
01:39:41,730 –> 01:39:45,330
that makes them loyal to me. I’ve heard this, right? And really, it comes down

1582
01:39:45,330 –> 01:39:49,010
to human jealousy. Absolutely. You know, and we

1583
01:39:49,010 –> 01:39:52,335
don’t talk a lot about that because we think that we’re podcast. And again, this

1584
01:39:52,335 –> 01:39:56,095
is one of those postmodern problems that require pre modern language to actually

1585
01:39:56,095 –> 01:39:59,590
describe. And so and

1586
01:39:59,590 –> 01:40:03,429
so let’s let’s call jealousy what it is. It’s it’s jealousy. Right? It’s envy.

1587
01:40:03,429 –> 01:40:06,935
Right? It’s the green dragon. Okay. Well,

1588
01:40:07,315 –> 01:40:10,695
as a result of me being good with my 6 to 8 people,

1589
01:40:12,114 –> 01:40:15,780
I am then offered another position. I am given

1590
01:40:16,639 –> 01:40:20,400
now 2 teams of 6 to 8 people, because if I could do

1591
01:40:20,400 –> 01:40:23,380
a well with 1, of course I could do it well with 2,

1592
01:40:24,795 –> 01:40:27,675
And then I could do it well with 3, and then I can remake the

1593
01:40:27,675 –> 01:40:30,974
whole culture. This is the ego now getting involved in this. Right?

1594
01:40:31,514 –> 01:40:35,130
Yep. How does a leadership me wrap this idea up with a

1595
01:40:35,130 –> 01:40:38,750
question. How does a leader check their own ego? Because

1596
01:40:38,810 –> 01:40:41,630
Jocko talks about this in his book, Check Your Ego, right?

1597
01:40:43,175 –> 01:40:46,215
If I’ve got my 6 to 8 people humming along, how do I check my

1598
01:40:46,215 –> 01:40:49,600
ego and just stay with those 6 to 8 people? Check my

1599
01:40:49,600 –> 01:40:53,120
ambition and just and just stay with those 6 to 8 people ethically? How do

1600
01:40:53,120 –> 01:40:56,880
I do that? That is a very interesting and a very difficult

1601
01:40:56,880 –> 01:40:57,380
question.

1602
01:41:00,795 –> 01:41:04,335
It’s it comes back to your humility factor for 1. Mhmm.

1603
01:41:05,755 –> 01:41:09,430
But it requires that understanding of

1604
01:41:09,430 –> 01:41:12,410
self. Mhmm. Now

1605
01:41:13,350 –> 01:41:16,410
could you take on, for the sake of the example,

1606
01:41:17,375 –> 01:41:20,735
another team of 6 people? Mhmm. You could do

1607
01:41:20,735 –> 01:41:24,414
that. And ego doesn’t really step into

1608
01:41:24,414 –> 01:41:27,000
it. Maybe it says, well if I can do that, I could probably do it

1609
01:41:27,000 –> 01:41:30,699
with them. Let’s give it a go. Reasonable response.

1610
01:41:33,595 –> 01:41:37,055
The question is, do you have enough insight into yourself

1611
01:41:38,395 –> 01:41:42,170
when you begin to see I am struggling to do this with

1612
01:41:42,170 –> 01:41:45,610
team number 2. I

1613
01:41:45,610 –> 01:41:49,375
need help. Mhmm. Whatever that means.

1614
01:41:49,755 –> 01:41:53,355
Mhmm. Right? And that is that level of self

1615
01:41:53,355 –> 01:41:57,163
awareness because, yes, my ego can take off. Yeah. Can do it with 2.

1616
01:41:57,163 –> 01:42:00,862
I can do it with 3. I can do it with whatever number. Bring them

1617
01:42:00,862 –> 01:42:04,562
on. Right? Because we feel invincible. Look at this. We’ve got this. This team is

1618
01:42:04,562 –> 01:42:08,114
running perfectly. I’m not overly stressed. It’s easy. I can

1619
01:42:08,114 –> 01:42:11,795
add more to it. That’s the ego

1620
01:42:11,795 –> 01:42:15,600
talking. There’s no two ways about it. I’m

1621
01:42:15,600 –> 01:42:18,660
not saying you can’t do 2 Tom of sex.

1622
01:42:22,160 –> 01:42:25,855
The question is, are you aware enough to know that you are

1623
01:42:25,855 –> 01:42:29,695
doing the same with team number 2 that you did

1624
01:42:29,695 –> 01:42:33,130
with number 1 and are not sacrificing

1625
01:42:33,590 –> 01:42:37,270
team number 1 for the sake of team number 2. Yeah.

1626
01:42:37,270 –> 01:42:40,765
Mhmm. Yep. And that it does take self

1627
01:42:40,765 –> 01:42:43,405
awareness. That’s not you know, do you

1628
01:42:44,685 –> 01:42:47,105
can I train that into somebody in 6 months?

1629
01:42:49,280 –> 01:42:53,120
Probably not. Right. That takes a lot

1630
01:42:53,120 –> 01:42:56,935
of self initiative as well. I can give you the foundation, but

1631
01:42:56,935 –> 01:43:00,775
it does take you doing a lot of the work. Yeah. And

1632
01:43:00,775 –> 01:43:04,200
being able to objectively evaluate, there

1633
01:43:04,200 –> 01:43:08,040
might be that so your boss in that

1634
01:43:08,040 –> 01:43:11,740
sense then. Mhmm. What’s their involvement

1635
01:43:11,880 –> 01:43:15,085
in all of us? So that brings the the question of

1636
01:43:15,945 –> 01:43:19,784
going up the tree, going up the ladder as

1637
01:43:19,784 –> 01:43:23,360
to how do we put the checks and balances in.

1638
01:43:23,739 –> 01:43:27,260
So how do how does my boss’s boss and so on take

1639
01:43:27,260 –> 01:43:30,985
ownership of what’s going on? How do we go to

1640
01:43:30,985 –> 01:43:34,825
scale with this? How do we go to scale at that point? Because it

1641
01:43:34,825 –> 01:43:38,640
does require just because there’s this pocket in an

1642
01:43:38,640 –> 01:43:42,320
organization that’s doing really well. It’s thriving. It’s it’s going

1643
01:43:42,320 –> 01:43:44,980
gangbusters, and is the envy of everybody else.

1644
01:43:45,945 –> 01:43:49,305
The question is why? Mhmm. And are other

1645
01:43:49,305 –> 01:43:51,965
people book in the in the horizontal,

1646
01:43:53,450 –> 01:43:57,290
but as well as the vertical structure in the in the organization at that point.

1647
01:43:57,290 –> 01:44:00,590
So the pyramid above it. How

1648
01:44:01,915 –> 01:44:05,402
open are they and how willing are they to learn? And you know, now you

1649
01:44:05,402 –> 01:44:09,034
turning in a whole lot of other dynamics into that. Do we

1650
01:44:09,034 –> 01:44:12,800
want to replicate this? And there’s the question of how do you scale?

1651
01:44:13,180 –> 01:44:16,940
How do you scale that? And that is always the challenge

1652
01:44:16,940 –> 01:44:20,655
but it requires self awareness to begin with. Otherwise,

1653
01:44:20,655 –> 01:44:24,335
you’re not going to get there. One of the solutions that

1654
01:44:24,335 –> 01:44:27,870
I’ve had to give folks at a practical level is,

1655
01:44:27,870 –> 01:44:31,230
and I, a very occasionally when I’m working with

1656
01:44:31,230 –> 01:44:34,610
bureaucracies, whether they’re governmental or corporate, it doesn’t matter.

1657
01:44:35,645 –> 01:44:39,405
You’ll get the leader in there, who is that leader who’s got their

1658
01:44:39,405 –> 01:44:43,025
team aligned correctly. Right. And they’ve got ownership

1659
01:44:43,380 –> 01:44:46,820
and they’re exhibiting these traits. And it’s a small team,

1660
01:44:46,820 –> 01:44:50,580
usually no more than 10 people. And they’re, you know, and they’re, and

1661
01:44:50,580 –> 01:44:54,164
they’ve got even, they’ve even had talk to people cycle in that they’ve been able

1662
01:44:54,164 –> 01:44:57,764
to turn around. Right. And the

1663
01:44:57,764 –> 01:45:01,510
other leaders who are who are pair not parallel, but

1664
01:45:01,510 –> 01:45:05,030
who are vertical, who are on the same vertical, the peer group Tom

1665
01:45:05,030 –> 01:45:08,605
them. Had this recently

1666
01:45:08,605 –> 01:45:11,805
happened as it called as just as just as recently leaders about 9 months ago

1667
01:45:11,805 –> 01:45:15,585
with a group I was working with that they will

1668
01:45:15,645 –> 01:45:19,260
say, okay, well, x y z Jesan.

1669
01:45:19,260 –> 01:45:23,099
Let’s just give her a name, Victoria. Of course, Victoria’s team is

1670
01:45:23,099 –> 01:45:26,765
working well. Like they’re hyper loyal to her. Like we can never

1671
01:45:26,765 –> 01:45:28,225
replicate that on my team.

1672
01:45:31,568 –> 01:45:35,320
Fourth we’ll get the question, which I love. Well, Jesan, you

1673
01:45:35,320 –> 01:45:39,000
talk about alignment and accountability and ownership, and

1674
01:45:39,000 –> 01:45:42,155
that’s all well and book. But you don’t understand

1675
01:45:42,775 –> 01:45:46,455
that team over there led by that person is gonna send me

1676
01:45:46,455 –> 01:45:49,114
someone Tom, and then I’m gonna have to deal with them.

1677
01:45:51,300 –> 01:45:54,180
And the answer I always give, and let me tell, tell, let me, let me

1678
01:45:54,180 –> 01:45:57,060
find out what you think about this. The answer I always give when that question

1679
01:45:57,060 –> 01:46:00,005
comes up is this. I say, Okay, well, there’s a very simple solution to solve

1680
01:46:00,005 –> 01:46:03,225
this problem. And you’re not going to like it. It’s simple,

1681
01:46:03,765 –> 01:46:06,800
but it’s not going to be it’s not gonna make you happy. Do you wanna

1682
01:46:06,800 –> 01:46:09,540
know what it is? Everybody goes,

1683
01:46:12,159 –> 01:46:15,295
grumble grumble grumble. Okay. This is not gonna make them happy. Like I I tell

1684
01:46:15,295 –> 01:46:17,614
you, it’s not gonna make you happy when I tell you what the solution is,

1685
01:46:17,614 –> 01:46:21,215
but it is simple. I said, here’s what you do. You do an invite

1686
01:46:21,215 –> 01:46:24,470
only meeting. Of everybody who’s at the same peer group.

1687
01:46:24,850 –> 01:46:28,610
There’s, like, 25 of you in this room, invite only meeting. Not fourth boss doesn’t

1688
01:46:28,610 –> 01:46:31,565
get to show up and your subordinates don’t get to show up. It’s the 25

1689
01:46:31,565 –> 01:46:35,244
of you on a Saturday morning. You lock yourselves in a room in person for

1690
01:46:35,244 –> 01:46:38,145
3 hours and everybody figures out how to get aligned.

1691
01:46:38,844 –> 01:46:42,489
And everybody cries and you get to an agreement, you figure out how to get

1692
01:46:42,489 –> 01:46:45,530
aligned and how you’re going to lead your teams and nobody gets to leave the

1693
01:46:45,530 –> 01:46:46,989
room until everybody’s aligned.

1694
01:46:49,275 –> 01:46:52,875
One Saturday, you could figure it out. And committed. And

1695
01:46:52,875 –> 01:46:56,715
committed. That’s right. One Saturday for, like, 4 hours. You could

1696
01:46:56,715 –> 01:47:00,469
figure it out. And everybody all of a sudden has nothing to

1697
01:47:00,469 –> 01:47:03,290
say. Yeah.

1698
01:47:07,005 –> 01:47:10,765
And because because the challenge is getting you all

1699
01:47:10,765 –> 01:47:14,525
as peers aligned because what you’ve done, and you don’t wanna

1700
01:47:14,525 –> 01:47:17,940
say this out loud, is you’ve carved out little

1701
01:47:17,940 –> 01:47:21,380
kingdoms where you like your

1702
01:47:21,380 –> 01:47:25,114
toxicity and you like your unethical behavior and you like

1703
01:47:25,114 –> 01:47:28,635
being jealous of this thing that’s working well. And by the way, even the

1704
01:47:28,635 –> 01:47:32,370
person who’s turning extreme ownership in

1705
01:47:32,370 –> 01:47:36,210
the Jocko Willock fashion over there, 4 to 6,

1706
01:47:36,210 –> 01:47:39,969
6 to 8, whatever number of people they’ve carved out their

1707
01:47:39,969 –> 01:47:41,190
own little sinecure.

1708
01:47:43,824 –> 01:47:47,205
And, yeah, I am. You see that up and down every organization,

1709
01:47:47,744 –> 01:47:50,465
right? And so you want Tom you want to you want to fix that problem

1710
01:47:50,465 –> 01:47:53,480
of misalignment. You all have to get aligned.

1711
01:47:55,540 –> 01:47:58,820
So that when subordinate a goes to

1712
01:47:58,904 –> 01:48:02,655
Tom B, They already know what the deal

1713
01:48:02,655 –> 01:48:06,495
is. They’re not escaping. They’re going to

1714
01:48:06,495 –> 01:48:10,140
the same deal over here. But the 25 of

1715
01:48:10,140 –> 01:48:13,820
you won’t spend a Saturday getting together because you’re too

1716
01:48:13,820 –> 01:48:17,360
busy fourth I don’t wanna spend my Saturday or I’m not getting paid for this,

1717
01:48:17,855 –> 01:48:21,375
or at the bottom of it, I’d like to just have this chip to complain

1718
01:48:21,375 –> 01:48:24,355
about, which I really think is a lot of it.

1719
01:48:25,054 –> 01:48:28,489
Absolutely. A lot of it is, well, if I’ve got something to beef about and

1720
01:48:28,489 –> 01:48:32,030
put somebody else down, it makes me feel better about myself. Right.

1721
01:48:32,489 –> 01:48:35,995
Because I don’t wanna deal with me. Who why would I wanna deal with

1722
01:48:35,995 –> 01:48:39,675
me? Heck no. Me, I’m the I’m the worst person to deal

1723
01:48:39,675 –> 01:48:43,455
with. It’s me. You know? No. People don’t wanna do that.

1724
01:48:43,860 –> 01:48:47,380
And that but and and to your example, get together on Saturday

1725
01:48:47,380 –> 01:48:50,280
morning, all that level, nobody else above below.

1726
01:48:51,125 –> 01:48:53,144
Oh, do

1727
01:48:55,445 –> 01:48:59,045
I’m supposed to go there? I’m gonna put my stuff on the

1728
01:48:59,045 –> 01:49:02,660
table? Yeah, it’s it. Yeah.

1729
01:49:02,660 –> 01:49:05,860
It puts you on the spot and people don’t like being put on the spot,

1730
01:49:05,860 –> 01:49:08,680
but they will pull up very quickly, but they don’t do anything.

1731
01:49:09,215 –> 01:49:12,735
Right. It’s the sad box. So pushing that fourth idea is

1732
01:49:12,735 –> 01:49:15,715
brilliant. It works, but it has to be pushed through.

1733
01:49:16,175 –> 01:49:19,969
Right. Yep. Yep. Alright. So we’re rounded

1734
01:49:19,969 –> 01:49:23,250
the corner here. We’ve had a good conversation. This has been this has been an

1735
01:49:23,250 –> 01:49:27,090
excellent conversation. We’re rounding the corner here. I wanna ask you a couple

1736
01:49:27,090 –> 01:49:30,685
of other questions. Talk a little bit actually, just talk a little bit

1737
01:49:30,685 –> 01:49:34,525
about, your work with, World Ethics Organization and sort of how

1738
01:49:34,525 –> 01:49:37,505
you came to be involved with those folks and what do they do,

1739
01:49:38,130 –> 01:49:41,590
and how do they impact how does ethics

1740
01:49:41,810 –> 01:49:45,170
overall is a maybe a not even a

1741
01:49:45,170 –> 01:49:48,724
philosophy, but a practical level. How does that get inserted

1742
01:49:49,264 –> 01:49:52,244
into, into organizations and into cultures through leadership?

1743
01:49:54,920 –> 01:49:58,280
Well, how I got involved with, Richard and the

1744
01:49:58,280 –> 01:50:02,025
WEO came about through another conversation I

1745
01:50:02,025 –> 01:50:05,645
had with somebody else who was involved with Richard and Jesan the ethics,

1746
01:50:06,025 –> 01:50:09,540
and in general. Mhmm. And, we just got a conversation

1747
01:50:10,080 –> 01:50:13,840
about it was leadership related. And I said, you know,

1748
01:50:13,840 –> 01:50:17,685
one of the biggest things that’s missing in in in in leadership,

1749
01:50:17,985 –> 01:50:21,425
but universally what we’re seeing in the world is

1750
01:50:21,425 –> 01:50:24,885
is is an act of ethics. People are not,

1751
01:50:25,800 –> 01:50:29,531
either not aware, and the younger generation has that problem as aware as awareness

1752
01:50:29,531 –> 01:50:33,160
turning, but the middle generation, say fourth your gen

1753
01:50:33,160 –> 01:50:36,915
x’s and partly your millennials, ethics means, oh, well, I

1754
01:50:36,915 –> 01:50:40,755
have to sacrifice something. And, well, I can’t do

1755
01:50:40,755 –> 01:50:44,515
what I want and whatever else. You know, they’re they’re all in

1756
01:50:44,515 –> 01:50:48,310
that vein. But he but this person said to me, you need to

1757
01:50:48,310 –> 01:50:51,990
meet Richard. So Richard and I had a

1758
01:50:51,990 –> 01:50:55,835
conversation and Richard then shared with me the change

1759
01:50:55,835 –> 01:50:58,815
agent program. Mhmm. Went through that with him.

1760
01:50:59,515 –> 01:51:02,575
And I said to him, Richard, you need an organization

1761
01:51:04,220 –> 01:51:07,900
that takes ethics on at a global

1762
01:51:07,900 –> 01:51:11,475
level much like now we mentioned

1763
01:51:11,475 –> 01:51:14,675
the WEF at the writers at the beginning. I’m just gonna throw it out here

1764
01:51:14,675 –> 01:51:18,275
to finish it off and essays, well, you gotta compete with that because we’ve gotta

1765
01:51:18,275 –> 01:51:21,630
put ethics on the table. And he said, yeah. We started that last month.

1766
01:51:23,285 –> 01:51:26,910
So oh. Oh.

1767
01:51:27,425 –> 01:51:30,324
Hey. Well, they you know, I said Sometimes I’m behind the curve.

1768
01:51:31,505 –> 01:51:35,239
Yeah. I said, see, Paul, do you wanna come and join us? I said,

1769
01:51:35,239 –> 01:51:38,840
sure. Well, let’s let’s see this. You know, maybe I can give my 2¢ and

1770
01:51:38,840 –> 01:51:42,355
help you guys get off the ground and whatnot else. And that’s what I spent

1771
01:51:42,355 –> 01:51:45,255
a year and a half doing as sort of in a more of an advisory

1772
01:51:45,395 –> 01:51:48,755
capacity. And yeah, I’ve got yeah. I mean, it

1773
01:51:48,755 –> 01:51:52,230
it’s ethics

1774
01:51:52,290 –> 01:51:56,050
is one of those missing ingredients now more than

1775
01:51:56,050 –> 01:51:58,550
ever that leaders need.

1776
01:51:59,975 –> 01:52:03,575
Because we understand the fundamental dilemma of

1777
01:52:03,575 –> 01:52:07,415
human nature. Mhmm. We are so driven, you know, we’ve used

1778
01:52:07,415 –> 01:52:11,210
the word ego. It’s about me. Mhmm. What can

1779
01:52:11,210 –> 01:52:14,910
I get? What what doesn’t matter who suffers,

1780
01:52:15,370 –> 01:52:19,155
but it’s about me. What Me. Mhmm. And and

1781
01:52:19,155 –> 01:52:21,825
I’ll I’ll leave it there. But ethics essays,

1782
01:52:23,315 –> 01:52:26,949
it’s not about me. It’s about how is

1783
01:52:26,949 –> 01:52:30,710
what I want to do going to impact others.

1784
01:52:30,710 –> 01:52:34,489
If it’s going to be a positive impact. If it’s gonna be any an uplifting

1785
01:52:34,710 –> 01:52:38,365
impact. Well then potentially it is good. It is

1786
01:52:38,365 –> 01:52:42,045
ethical. But if it’s gonna have a negative impact

1787
01:52:42,045 –> 01:52:45,665
and and really hurt people in whatever which way,

1788
01:52:46,670 –> 01:52:50,450
then is it really a good idea? And that

1789
01:52:50,590 –> 01:52:54,225
in a nutshell is the problem with ethics today.

1790
01:52:54,225 –> 01:52:57,665
It has become so many leaders. And,

1791
01:52:57,665 –> 01:53:01,219
you know, I’ll I’ll I’ll I’ll call the

1792
01:53:01,219 –> 01:53:04,020
elephant in the room on this one then and essays, yeah, just look at government.

1793
01:53:04,020 –> 01:53:07,860
It’s very classic. Mhmm. The ethics isn’t there because it’s driven

1794
01:53:07,860 –> 01:53:11,465
by my ego because what I can get. Right.

1795
01:53:11,765 –> 01:53:15,225
And we all know what the I can get is. Right. So

1796
01:53:15,845 –> 01:53:19,225
do we need more of that? Do we need examples of leaders exhibiting

1797
01:53:19,520 –> 01:53:22,660
ethical behavior? Yes. And that’s the goal of the WEO.

1798
01:53:23,840 –> 01:53:27,445
To get those conversations ethics going so

1799
01:53:27,445 –> 01:53:31,285
that we instill the awareness. Oh, my

1800
01:53:31,285 –> 01:53:34,725
ego can be detrimental to to you and to the people on

1801
01:53:34,725 –> 01:53:38,369
my team. Oh, is that a

1802
01:53:38,369 –> 01:53:41,510
good idea? Yes. I might get this in the moment,

1803
01:53:43,090 –> 01:53:46,085
but I might pay for it tomorrow. Consequences

1804
01:53:46,465 –> 01:53:50,085
of unethical behavior. You know,

1805
01:53:50,145 –> 01:53:53,205
people don’t look at this anymore. They don’t see

1806
01:53:53,665 –> 01:53:57,376
the the the the notion the the not the notion,

1807
01:53:57,376 –> 01:54:00,420
the, the cycle of action,

1808
01:54:01,199 –> 01:54:04,875
reaction, consequence. There’s always for every action there’s a reaction. It

1809
01:54:04,875 –> 01:54:08,655
doesn’t matter which way shape or form you look at it. So an ethical

1810
01:54:09,114 –> 01:54:12,770
action is going to yield potentially success. An

1811
01:54:12,770 –> 01:54:16,610
unethical action. I might get a moment to

1812
01:54:16,610 –> 01:54:20,362
re satisfaction out of it, but the long Tom,

1813
01:54:21,695 –> 01:54:25,395
yeah, you’re gonna pay for it. It’s just a question of when, not if.

1814
01:54:25,935 –> 01:54:29,296
So can can we instill in leaders?

1815
01:54:30,370 –> 01:54:34,150
I turning this in through, I weave it into my academy, is the ethical

1816
01:54:34,930 –> 01:54:38,415
obligation duty, coming back to that

1817
01:54:38,415 –> 01:54:41,855
word, that leaders have that their

1818
01:54:41,855 –> 01:54:45,440
actions are measured against an ethical standard. Now

1819
01:54:45,440 –> 01:54:49,040
everybody’s got their own ethical standard, and the WAs are looking at addressing some

1820
01:54:49,040 –> 01:54:52,800
other. How do we bring, you know, this group’s standards and this

1821
01:54:52,800 –> 01:54:56,534
group and this group, the diversity of these groups into 1 and

1822
01:54:56,534 –> 01:54:59,675
and figure out, you know, there is a standard of ethics

1823
01:55:00,614 –> 01:55:03,560
and establishing that. So when we’re not

1824
01:55:04,120 –> 01:55:06,700
Yeah. Yeah. And a standard of ethics that

1825
01:55:08,280 –> 01:55:11,905
because I took Richard’s change agent course as well, and

1826
01:55:11,905 –> 01:55:15,505
I’ve I’ve I’ve had some engagement with the

1827
01:55:15,505 –> 01:55:18,485
w e o. Probably needs to be more significant.

1828
01:55:19,425 –> 01:55:20,645
I’ll admit to that.

1829
01:55:24,100 –> 01:55:27,699
I think we, we, we have to

1830
01:55:27,699 –> 01:55:31,195
say fundamentally that an

1831
01:55:31,195 –> 01:55:34,975
objective standard outside of our subjective experience does exist.

1832
01:55:36,395 –> 01:55:40,039
And that we can know that objective standard. It’s not cloudy.

1833
01:55:40,579 –> 01:55:44,179
It’s not unknowable. It’s not

1834
01:55:44,179 –> 01:55:47,554
mysterious. And I think we can say, we know what the

1835
01:55:47,554 –> 01:55:51,315
standard is, primarily because we’re not

1836
01:55:51,315 –> 01:55:55,119
primarily, but we know what the standard

1837
01:55:55,119 –> 01:55:58,960
is because evidentially to make up a word, in

1838
01:55:58,960 –> 01:56:02,019
the material world that we built in the 20th century,

1839
01:56:03,025 –> 01:56:06,465
the results Tom your point about choices have

1840
01:56:06,465 –> 01:56:09,824
consequences, the results of choosing to behave at an

1841
01:56:09,824 –> 01:56:13,530
unethical standard can be seen in the deaths of a 100,000,000 people in the

1842
01:56:13,530 –> 01:56:17,290
20th century. Mhmm. They

1843
01:56:17,290 –> 01:56:21,135
can be seen in the results of world wars, 2 of them.

1844
01:56:21,295 –> 01:56:24,675
There were just massively catastrophic events outside of the other 100,000,000

1845
01:56:24,815 –> 01:56:27,554
deaths. We can also see

1846
01:56:28,894 –> 01:56:31,980
in real time the decline of, and this is something we’ve talked about on this

1847
01:56:31,980 –> 01:56:35,600
podcast a lot, particularly last year, decline of meaning,

1848
01:56:35,660 –> 01:56:38,640
particularly meaning among you talked about younger generations,

1849
01:56:39,215 –> 01:56:43,055
particularly meaning among younger generations, particularly young males, the

1850
01:56:43,055 –> 01:56:46,495
decline of meaning in the amongst young males in the West, which

1851
01:56:46,495 –> 01:56:49,840
is to my mind, more of a catastrophic

1852
01:56:49,900 –> 01:56:53,520
event overall for civilization

1853
01:56:53,580 –> 01:56:57,265
than anything having to do with the changing climate, quite

1854
01:56:57,265 –> 01:57:01,074
frankly. Because if we can solve for the turning

1855
01:57:01,105 –> 01:57:04,725
crisis, which I do think ties back to ethics,

1856
01:57:05,140 –> 01:57:08,900
we can solve for all of these other things. Agreed. But we

1857
01:57:08,900 –> 01:57:12,340
have to admit, not agree, just

1858
01:57:12,340 –> 01:57:16,125
admit that there’s an objective standard outside of our subjective experience.

1859
01:57:17,465 –> 01:57:21,065
And unfortunately, we have 150 years of people

1860
01:57:21,065 –> 01:57:24,900
convinced through education and entertainment and other means that there is

1861
01:57:24,900 –> 01:57:28,660
no objective standard, or even if there is, we can’t know it. And

1862
01:57:28,660 –> 01:57:32,365
so once you say there’s no objective standard, or even worse, once you say we

1863
01:57:32,365 –> 01:57:34,945
can’t know an objective standard, now you’ve,

1864
01:57:36,365 –> 01:57:39,720
you’ve pulled up all of the gates and you’ve opened up all the fourth.

1865
01:57:40,840 –> 01:57:44,220
And unfortunately for us, it’s the gatekeepers of

1866
01:57:44,760 –> 01:57:48,300
education, the gatekeepers of government, the gatekeepers

1867
01:57:48,440 –> 01:57:51,945
of entertainment, who are the ones busiest pulling up the

1868
01:57:51,945 –> 01:57:55,545
gates and saying that there is no standard fourth that we can’t know it for

1869
01:57:55,545 –> 01:57:59,360
150 years. Correct. And so

1870
01:57:59,360 –> 01:58:03,120
this is a massive problem that is of our

1871
01:58:03,120 –> 01:58:06,495
own making as human beings, particularly human beings in the West,

1872
01:58:08,095 –> 01:58:11,875
But it is one that we can solve because we created it.

1873
01:58:12,255 –> 01:58:15,910
We can solve this problem. Any problem that we’ve created, we can solve. It’s just

1874
01:58:15,910 –> 01:58:19,510
what do we do to solve it? And I see the World Ethics Organization as

1875
01:58:19,510 –> 01:58:23,270
part of that solution. I definitely agree with you. It is part of

1876
01:58:23,270 –> 01:58:27,115
the solution. And, yeah, I mean, Richard,

1877
01:58:27,575 –> 01:58:31,095
keep going. I’m in support of his work, what he’s

1878
01:58:31,095 –> 01:58:34,710
doing. And, yeah. And that’s why that’s one of the reasons why I

1879
01:58:34,710 –> 01:58:38,150
bring ethics into the to the whole notion of what

1880
01:58:38,150 –> 01:58:41,905
leadership actually is. Yep. Yep. It’s almost like it’s

1881
01:58:41,905 –> 01:58:45,205
one of the 3 legs of the 3 legged stool. Yep.

1882
01:58:46,785 –> 01:58:50,460
Okay. So to wrap up here, we’re a podcast that

1883
01:58:50,460 –> 01:58:54,300
obviously believes in the power of great books of the past to teach

1884
01:58:54,300 –> 01:58:57,900
us lessons, and to lay the foundation for the

1885
01:58:57,900 –> 01:59:01,735
future fourth us. So what are some great

1886
01:59:01,795 –> 01:59:05,630
book? Not necessarily business books, but what are some great books? And

1887
01:59:05,630 –> 01:59:08,750
we talked about extreme ownership and talked about a couple of other books on the

1888
01:59:08,750 –> 01:59:12,510
podcast today. But what are some great books that have led to

1889
01:59:12,510 –> 01:59:16,105
where that have led you to where you are right now? You have a bookshelf

1890
01:59:16,165 –> 01:59:19,925
there. You’re a literary guy. I see Never Split the Difference there. I

1891
01:59:19,925 –> 01:59:23,685
see Chris Voss hanging out over there. So I know

1892
01:59:23,685 –> 01:59:27,120
that book cover. I know that one. But, of course, some

1893
01:59:27,580 –> 01:59:30,860
and I suspect you probably also have some Nicholas Nassim Taleb on there and maybe

1894
01:59:30,860 –> 01:59:34,445
some Daniel Kahneman, who just recently just

1895
01:59:34,445 –> 01:59:38,205
recently passed away. But there were some books that were

1896
01:59:38,205 –> 01:59:41,860
some great books of the can of the Writers canon that which is kinda what

1897
01:59:41,860 –> 01:59:44,660
we focused on in this podcast that have led you to where you’re at now

1898
01:59:44,660 –> 01:59:48,500
with, with LOS Global? I I

1899
01:59:49,715 –> 01:59:53,315
you can’t go without mentioning some of John Maxwell’s

1900
01:59:53,315 –> 01:59:57,074
stuff. I he’s got a ton of books out there. He’s

1901
01:59:57,074 –> 02:00:00,820
got some valuable insight. It needs, in my opinion, it

1902
02:00:00,820 –> 02:00:04,580
needs to be mixed with a few other things to really round it out. He’s

1903
02:00:04,580 –> 02:00:07,965
very good in in what he’s got. And

1904
02:00:07,965 –> 02:00:11,505
then Ken Blanchard, and he’s got a couple of books that

1905
02:00:11,645 –> 02:00:15,324
focuses more on servant and situational leisure, which is an

1906
02:00:15,324 –> 02:00:18,210
important aspect of it. And it it brings

1907
02:00:19,309 –> 02:00:21,969
depth to some of John’s material as well.

1908
02:00:23,230 –> 02:00:26,989
You know, just looking at some of the books. An interesting book, you know,

1909
02:00:26,989 –> 02:00:30,355
we spoke about influence and inspiration earlier. In influence,

1910
02:00:31,375 –> 02:00:35,055
there’s a book called Growing Influence. Okay. It was

1911
02:00:35,055 –> 02:00:38,570
a as a as a novel. Mhmm. You know,

1912
02:00:38,570 –> 02:00:42,190
interaction between, a senior retired

1913
02:00:42,330 –> 02:00:45,965
CEO and a young aspiring, leader

1914
02:00:45,965 –> 02:00:49,725
in an organization keeps getting overlooked. Yes. She’s female and he’s

1915
02:00:49,725 –> 02:00:53,505
male. And so it brings some of those dynamics, the sexual

1916
02:00:53,645 –> 02:00:57,240
the gender dynamics into the, Internet. But

1917
02:00:57,240 –> 02:01:00,700
it’s I think it’s very well written as a structure.

1918
02:01:01,480 –> 02:01:05,315
How can you build your influence? So especially the younger

1919
02:01:05,375 –> 02:01:09,215
leaders, newer leaders, how can they establish some level

1920
02:01:09,215 –> 02:01:12,970
of influence? That’s a very good book. There is a

1921
02:01:12,970 –> 02:01:16,570
book, lead when you when you’re not in

1922
02:01:16,570 –> 02:01:20,364
charge fourth know, because you can be

1923
02:01:20,364 –> 02:01:24,125
a manager, but you’re still not in charge. Mhmm. You know, you

1924
02:01:24,125 –> 02:01:27,724
you can have a position within an other than the work

1925
02:01:27,724 –> 02:01:30,940
of be in an organizational chart, but

1926
02:01:31,400 –> 02:01:34,920
you still are not in charge of anything. You still so how can you

1927
02:01:34,920 –> 02:01:38,305
lead in that? Because a lot of people there say, well, I’m I’m not a

1928
02:01:38,305 –> 02:01:41,665
leader. I’m just manager Joe. No. Well, you’re a leader because

1929
02:01:41,665 –> 02:01:45,265
you you are in a position where you’re required to lead

1930
02:01:45,265 –> 02:01:49,010
yourself first. That’s the first one. And the second one is you do

1931
02:01:49,010 –> 02:01:52,070
have a few people that you are to that you influence.

1932
02:01:52,850 –> 02:01:56,425
Mhmm. However that so how do you do that? Yeah. So there’s that one I

1933
02:01:56,425 –> 02:01:57,724
found very useful.

1934
02:01:59,784 –> 02:02:02,177
Yeah. Looking at some of the other books,

1935
02:02:03,490 –> 02:02:07,330
Brene Brown has got some good stuff on leadership, but she gets

1936
02:02:07,330 –> 02:02:11,030
very into the the philosophy, the psychology

1937
02:02:11,250 –> 02:02:15,045
of it all. Useful anecdotes. I mean, there there’s

1938
02:02:15,045 –> 02:02:18,885
some she’s got some good stuff. But I’d I’d say that’s more for

1939
02:02:18,885 –> 02:02:22,260
the more the more

1940
02:02:22,260 –> 02:02:25,860
experienced leader. Mhmm. Okay. So that that’d be more for

1941
02:02:25,860 –> 02:02:29,495
them. I mean, it’s leadership.

1942
02:02:29,540 –> 02:02:33,045
What’s it called? Developing the leaders within

1943
02:02:33,045 –> 02:02:35,625
2.0. That’s John Maxwell. That’s a good book.

1944
02:02:37,605 –> 02:02:41,130
Oh, from an executive

1945
02:02:41,590 –> 02:02:44,810
perspective, The Advantage is a good book, Patrick Lancione.

1946
02:02:45,430 –> 02:02:49,265
Mhmm. Okay. Yeah. Of the team. Those are all some

1947
02:02:49,265 –> 02:02:53,105
of the good you know, it’s the whole reason why you got

1948
02:02:53,205 –> 02:02:56,920
podcast is because, you know, I can read all of these books, but it’s gonna

1949
02:02:56,920 –> 02:02:59,639
take me a long time. And, you know, a lot of the stuff that I’ve

1950
02:02:59,639 –> 02:03:03,320
shared with you and you shared is the culmination of a lot of reading we’ve

1951
02:03:03,320 –> 02:03:07,005
done. Right. So, you know, those are just a handful of books. But

1952
02:03:08,505 –> 02:03:12,265
the reading that I’ve done, and I’ve done reading beyond that, you

1953
02:03:12,265 –> 02:03:16,030
know, books about I’m gonna I’m

1954
02:03:16,030 –> 02:03:19,250
gonna go into the realms of even abuse when you understand

1955
02:03:19,869 –> 02:03:23,055
how easily people can verbally and emotionally abuse someone

1956
02:03:23,455 –> 02:03:27,215
else. Mhmm. Powerful book on leadership to understand how it

1957
02:03:27,215 –> 02:03:31,055
happens because gaslighting is a big issue in

1958
02:03:31,055 –> 02:03:34,500
leadership. Mhmm. That how you know?

1959
02:03:34,800 –> 02:03:38,400
Now you’re aware of it. Now you can put a stop to it. You

1960
02:03:38,400 –> 02:03:41,925
can help somebody who’s doing it to do

1961
02:03:41,925 –> 02:03:45,284
it less. Mhmm. Aware of it in turn. You

1962
02:03:45,284 –> 02:03:48,505
know, those sort of things. So I think there’s more

1963
02:03:49,820 –> 02:03:53,579
It’s you you said not just business books, but that’s that’s

1964
02:03:53,579 –> 02:03:55,760
another realm. It’s how do you communication

1965
02:03:56,940 –> 02:04:00,595
styles. Mhmm. Heck, what does that do to

1966
02:04:00,595 –> 02:04:02,855
impact your communication with your

1967
02:04:03,955 –> 02:04:07,690
spouse? Your kids, your friends that you

1968
02:04:07,690 –> 02:04:11,050
never act with in work because they don’t work in the same company as you

1969
02:04:11,050 –> 02:04:14,670
do. How do you interact with that and how does that impact your leadership?

1970
02:04:14,890 –> 02:04:18,675
So how do you communicate? Understanding your communication stuff. Things

1971
02:04:18,675 –> 02:04:22,515
like that. And I I some of the things that I do

1972
02:04:22,515 –> 02:04:26,290
with with, people that I work with with leaders is something called

1973
02:04:26,290 –> 02:04:30,130
bank, b a n k. Okay. Crack you

1974
02:04:30,210 –> 02:04:33,030
crack the code or you and understand how you communicate.

1975
02:04:33,650 –> 02:04:37,485
Mhmm. What your style of communication is. Understand that other people

1976
02:04:37,485 –> 02:04:40,765
have different ones. Now you know how to communicate with them. Yeah. That goes into

1977
02:04:40,765 –> 02:04:44,520
the books of, you know, Robert Cialdini. You mentioned that about influence and

1978
02:04:44,520 –> 02:04:47,820
all of that. There’s so many books on communication.

1979
02:04:49,845 –> 02:04:53,465
What else? No.

1980
02:04:53,765 –> 02:04:56,725
What about good what about good fiction? Because we do we do we we do

1981
02:04:56,725 –> 02:04:59,610
a lot of classical fiction on this. Like, we just came off a month of,

1982
02:04:59,930 –> 02:05:02,830
we just came off a month of the Russian writers, right? So we read Turgenev

1983
02:05:02,970 –> 02:05:06,810
and we read Tolstoy, and we read, we didn’t

1984
02:05:06,810 –> 02:05:10,325
read Dostoevsky. We’re still trying. I’m still trying to wrap my arms around the writers

1985
02:05:10,325 –> 02:05:13,525
carom resolve enough to be able to pull. And there’s stuff in there. Just you

1986
02:05:13,525 –> 02:05:17,060
gotta. You’re you’re you’re a bigger man than me. Are you? You well

1987
02:05:17,200 –> 02:05:20,480
well, War and Peace is 1400 pages. We just got through part 1 of it.

1988
02:05:20,480 –> 02:05:24,100
And where are we where we where we where myself and my cohost,

1989
02:05:24,935 –> 02:05:27,575
and this is the most one of the most recent episodes we dropped this month.

1990
02:05:27,815 –> 02:05:30,395
I think it was episode 104, I think.

1991
02:05:31,900 –> 02:05:35,740
But, we, we determined that one of the big things you can

1992
02:05:35,740 –> 02:05:39,415
learn from the beginning of war and peace, because it opens with a party, is

1993
02:05:39,415 –> 02:05:43,195
how to communicate and what and how Tom engage in appropriate

1994
02:05:43,415 –> 02:05:47,250
networking etiquette when you’re a business leader. Oh, and how to

1995
02:05:47,250 –> 02:05:51,090
evolve, and you use this word, how to evolve the

1996
02:05:51,090 –> 02:05:54,685
drunken shenanigans, you call political shenanigans, but the drunken

1997
02:05:55,225 –> 02:05:58,905
shenanigans of organizations and cultures so that you don’t get, you know, well, so you

1998
02:05:58,905 –> 02:06:02,665
don’t have to go off to war and fight Napoleon in, like, 18/12 because

1999
02:06:02,665 –> 02:06:06,130
that sucks. Yeah. It does. Well, I mean,

2000
02:06:07,230 –> 02:06:10,829
fiction books, I haven’t read in in recent times, I haven’t read a lot of

2001
02:06:10,829 –> 02:06:14,025
fiction books. I’ll be honest with you on that one. I sort of Sure. I’ve

2002
02:06:14,025 –> 02:06:17,705
gotten lost on that. But to your point

2003
02:06:17,705 –> 02:06:21,520
of fiction, because of the depth of research

2004
02:06:21,520 –> 02:06:23,780
that is done to create a book of fiction.

2005
02:06:25,280 –> 02:06:28,925
There’s a lot of anecdotal type

2006
02:06:29,945 –> 02:06:33,705
lessons we can learn from them, I think. How, oh this

2007
02:06:33,705 –> 02:06:36,525
happened, this happened. Oh that gives me an awareness

2008
02:06:38,330 –> 02:06:42,170
of a certain situation. Mhmm. That in a business book

2009
02:06:42,170 –> 02:06:45,949
I may not have got again because it was never mentioned. Right.

2010
02:06:47,034 –> 02:06:50,715
Yeah. I read, I’ve read, the one book that’s

2011
02:06:50,715 –> 02:06:54,094
that’s sort of coming to mind is, Barnhofer.

2012
02:06:54,750 –> 02:06:58,370
Oh, yeah. Okay. Yep. You know, and it’s yes, it’s a biography.

2013
02:06:59,870 –> 02:07:02,929
But it’s interesting to see how he

2014
02:07:04,295 –> 02:07:07,835
led himself, granted through the eyes of Eric.

2015
02:07:09,175 –> 02:07:12,880
Eric Metaxo wrote the book, but it is interesting to see how he

2016
02:07:12,880 –> 02:07:16,320
led himself and how he chose to interact with other

2017
02:07:16,320 –> 02:07:19,895
people. The humility, the grace,

2018
02:07:20,515 –> 02:07:23,415
things like that, powerful lessons for leaders.

2019
02:07:24,275 –> 02:07:27,635
So yes. Bonhoeffer was one of the probably top fourth

2020
02:07:27,635 –> 02:07:30,230
theologians of the was produced in the 20th century,

2021
02:07:31,330 –> 02:07:35,030
along with, GK Chesterton, CS Lewis, and Francis Schaeffer.

2022
02:07:36,050 –> 02:07:39,395
Those are probably your big four of the 20th century.

2023
02:07:40,895 –> 02:07:44,275
At least that came out of both the Protestant and a Catholic ethic,

2024
02:07:44,865 –> 02:07:48,619
writers Should she get GK, Chester, Tennessee as Lewis were, were

2025
02:07:48,619 –> 02:07:50,480
in that we’re in that space. And so,

2026
02:07:52,219 –> 02:07:55,614
okay. By the way, we’ll be

2027
02:07:55,614 –> 02:07:58,755
covering Bonhoeffer on the podcast in,

2028
02:07:59,375 –> 02:08:01,795
I believe August or September.

2029
02:08:03,330 –> 02:08:06,770
I’m going to be looking at some of his writings. I’m personally

2030
02:08:06,770 –> 02:08:10,610
fascinated by him, just as

2031
02:08:10,610 –> 02:08:13,204
a person. I don’t know because of the level of

2032
02:08:15,585 –> 02:08:19,420
the level of commitment he had. To talk about leading yourself,

2033
02:08:19,640 –> 02:08:21,980
the level of commitment he had to

2034
02:08:25,080 –> 02:08:28,094
continuing to engage in

2035
02:08:28,915 –> 02:08:32,014
no continuing to walk down a path

2036
02:08:32,635 –> 02:08:36,380
where the clearing and what was going to fundamentally be

2037
02:08:36,380 –> 02:08:39,900
at the end of that path. I think he understood better even than the

2038
02:08:39,900 –> 02:08:42,880
people around him better than his friends.

2039
02:08:43,735 –> 02:08:47,035
And there’s a lesson in there for the leaders in Bonhoeffer’s

2040
02:08:47,335 –> 02:08:50,955
life, in understanding human nature,

2041
02:08:51,510 –> 02:08:55,110
understanding the knock on effects of patterns that have repeated throughout

2042
02:08:55,110 –> 02:08:58,010
history. That way you’re not surprised

2043
02:08:59,045 –> 02:09:02,565
when you wind up in the place where you were

2044
02:09:02,565 –> 02:09:06,085
going to wind up that. I think Bonhoeffer was the

2045
02:09:06,085 –> 02:09:09,660
least surprised that he was executed by the Nazis.

2046
02:09:10,200 –> 02:09:13,960
I think probably the the even the Nazis were surprised they executed him, but

2047
02:09:13,960 –> 02:09:16,505
he wasn’t because he understood

2048
02:09:17,605 –> 02:09:21,065
the nature of the thing he was fighting against.

2049
02:09:21,364 –> 02:09:24,969
He understood the fundamental nature of human evil,

2050
02:09:25,270 –> 02:09:28,949
and that is something I think that the postmodern mind, which has banished

2051
02:09:28,949 –> 02:09:32,735
evil, even the concept of talking about it, other than in

2052
02:09:32,735 –> 02:09:36,495
a political context, of course, which is the only place we can ever have any

2053
02:09:36,495 –> 02:09:40,150
kinds of theological conversations is in a political context, which

2054
02:09:40,150 –> 02:09:43,510
is really too bad because it’s way too narrow a context for such

2055
02:09:43,510 –> 02:09:46,970
conversations to happen. The postmodern mind struggles

2056
02:09:47,590 –> 02:09:50,875
when it when it faces evil.

2057
02:09:51,415 –> 02:09:54,855
And we’re seeing that currently in our geopolitical moment that we’re in right now in

2058
02:09:54,855 –> 02:09:58,315
the west, vis a vis Israel and Hamas,

2059
02:09:59,020 –> 02:10:02,720
but we’re also seeing it in our own individual lives.

2060
02:10:03,180 –> 02:10:06,780
And when evil does show up, the postmodern secular

2061
02:10:06,780 –> 02:10:09,865
materialistic mindset has nothing for that.

2062
02:10:10,245 –> 02:10:14,085
Mhmm. Bonhoeffer had a solution for that because he

2063
02:10:14,085 –> 02:10:17,790
understood other things about human nature. Yeah. And so was unsurprised

2064
02:10:17,929 –> 02:10:21,150
when human nature showed up. So he’s a fascinating character.

2065
02:10:21,690 –> 02:10:25,505
Just quickly, you mentioned CS Lewis. Yes. You’re talking about fiction

2066
02:10:25,505 –> 02:10:29,345
for a moment. The other book that Sorrells that I

2067
02:10:29,345 –> 02:10:33,050
found rather interesting and maybe it needs a couple of reads

2068
02:10:33,050 –> 02:10:36,809
to really get it out is the Lord turning Sorrells, which

2069
02:10:36,809 –> 02:10:40,645
is Tolkien, who was a contemporary of CS Lewis and

2070
02:10:40,645 –> 02:10:44,405
was actually very strongly influenced by CS Lewis, which is interesting. But

2071
02:10:44,405 –> 02:10:48,245
he’s been as a result of that influence and where that

2072
02:10:48,245 –> 02:10:51,820
led is when he wrote the Lord of the Rings series. And

2073
02:10:51,820 –> 02:10:55,226
you see leadership and the challenges of leadership.

2074
02:10:55,900 –> 02:10:59,655
And it’s a small group of people. Right. The interesting part,

2075
02:10:59,655 –> 02:11:03,095
right, like we said earlier, and being able to lead and

2076
02:11:03,095 –> 02:11:05,835
how the different people led

2077
02:11:06,455 –> 02:11:09,730
different aspects of that

2078
02:11:10,190 –> 02:11:13,870
journey in that story. The most interesting

2079
02:11:13,870 –> 02:11:17,465
part of the Lord of the Rings is in the beginning of

2080
02:11:17,465 –> 02:11:21,225
return of the king. The 3rd book and Gandalf shows

2081
02:11:21,225 –> 02:11:23,315
up, at,

2082
02:11:25,140 –> 02:11:28,500
at, gosh, it’s not fourth door. It’s,

2083
02:11:28,980 –> 02:11:32,820
Boromir’s father, the king who was looking through the, the, the looking

2084
02:11:32,820 –> 02:11:36,455
glass and could see basically had basically,

2085
02:11:36,455 –> 02:11:39,815
he saw evil. He saw the face of evil. He saw the face. Yeah. And

2086
02:11:39,815 –> 02:11:43,480
he and he lost his mind. Right? And

2087
02:11:43,480 –> 02:11:46,540
Gandalf was unable to save him.

2088
02:11:46,840 –> 02:11:50,620
Right? And at the same time, you have his son Faramir,

2089
02:11:51,295 –> 02:11:55,054
who he does not honor, who’s trying to lead the people and trying

2090
02:11:55,054 –> 02:11:58,514
to mount a defense against the forces of Mordor

2091
02:11:59,310 –> 02:12:03,150
and is getting no help whatsoever from his father. Who’s supposed to be

2092
02:12:03,150 –> 02:12:06,510
the steward of Gondor. Right. Who’s supposed to be that king.

2093
02:12:06,510 –> 02:12:10,135
And so, and even the name, the steward of

2094
02:12:10,135 –> 02:12:13,494
Gondor. I mean, come on. So you’ve got, you know, you’ve got the steward of

2095
02:12:13,494 –> 02:12:17,034
Gondor. You’ve got turning Theoden. Those are 2 different leadership

2096
02:12:18,210 –> 02:12:21,989
examples there. And you’re right. I I had a conversation recently

2097
02:12:22,130 –> 02:12:25,670
with somebody about Tolkien, CS Lewis, and and sort of their

2098
02:12:25,755 –> 02:12:29,135
how they came Tom. How they came

2099
02:12:29,594 –> 02:12:32,554
to having how they came to writing the way that they

2100
02:12:32,667 –> 02:12:35,960
writers, And, you know, they were both heavily influenced,

2101
02:12:36,020 –> 02:12:39,780
obviously, as their entire generation was by the impact of World

2102
02:12:39,780 –> 02:12:43,415
War 1 and and just the killing fields of Europe and and just

2103
02:12:43,415 –> 02:12:46,855
the Psalm and just all the things that they saw. But with

2104
02:12:46,855 –> 02:12:50,440
Tolkien, interestingly enough, Tolkien and Lewis had the

2105
02:12:50,440 –> 02:12:53,820
same experience, but pulled slightly

2106
02:12:53,880 –> 02:12:57,400
different lessons from that that you can see in their writing if you’re

2107
02:12:57,400 –> 02:13:00,795
sensitive to that. So, yeah, we, we’ve covered abolition of man,

2108
02:13:01,094 –> 02:13:04,455
by CS Lewis on this podcast. And we’ve also covered,

2109
02:13:05,574 –> 02:13:09,000
all 3 of the Lord of the Rings books that we’ve covered The Hobbit, it

2110
02:13:09,000 –> 02:13:12,600
will be going back to them, again, not this year, but next year, we’ll be

2111
02:13:12,600 –> 02:13:16,315
going back to them again, and diving in with a, with a guest

2112
02:13:16,315 –> 02:13:19,675
co host who I think is going to bring a certain level of passion to

2113
02:13:19,675 –> 02:13:23,435
that conversation because he’s deeply engaged with those books, at at

2114
02:13:23,435 –> 02:13:27,139
multiple levels. So, yeah, there’s so much you can learn from leadership. I

2115
02:13:27,139 –> 02:13:30,659
one of the things I’ll say to folks is, you can learn more about emotional

2116
02:13:30,659 –> 02:13:34,414
intelligence from Sense and Sensibility than you can from Daniel Goleman’s emotional

2117
02:13:34,414 –> 02:13:38,255
intelligence. But read them both together. Read Goleman and then read Jane Austen, and

2118
02:13:38,255 –> 02:13:41,960
now you’ve got it. You’ve got emotional intelligence. Now you understand it. Pretty much. That’s

2119
02:13:41,960 –> 02:13:45,800
that’s a good way of describing it. Yeah. So, well,

2120
02:13:45,800 –> 02:13:49,355
let’s let’s close with this question. I I was I ask everybody when they when

2121
02:13:49,355 –> 02:13:53,035
they come on Tom podcast, what would you like to promote today, if anything? Well,

2122
02:13:53,035 –> 02:13:56,635
thanks fourth that, Janssen. And we host as

2123
02:13:56,635 –> 02:14:00,140
LOS Global, we host VIP, so

2124
02:14:00,140 –> 02:14:03,900
invitation on the executive leadership fourth. Nominally once

2125
02:14:03,900 –> 02:14:07,395
a month, every 5 books, depending on, on

2126
02:14:07,395 –> 02:14:10,855
schedules and that. And we cover, insights

2127
02:14:10,915 –> 02:14:14,295
that are relevant to leaders today.

2128
02:14:15,080 –> 02:14:18,920
And I’ll often have either some of my team on that and we discuss

2129
02:14:18,920 –> 02:14:22,665
it and bring the audience in, or I bring in other experts to to

2130
02:14:22,665 –> 02:14:26,505
talk about a particular topic that’s current on that. So I’d invite people

2131
02:14:26,505 –> 02:14:30,160
to that. The website is a simple, you know,

2132
02:14:30,300 –> 02:14:32,340
Sorrells global.com/home.

2133
02:14:35,120 –> 02:14:38,640
Come along, you know, it’s an it is invitation only. So go to the

2134
02:14:38,640 –> 02:14:42,145
website, fill in the form, you know, submit your your your

2135
02:14:42,145 –> 02:14:45,925
invitation request. Not your application, your invitation request.

2136
02:14:46,225 –> 02:14:49,620
And you know if it’s a fit, you know, well yeah, you’re welcome to to

2137
02:14:49,620 –> 02:14:53,300
join us and join the conversation. So I’ll leave that as

2138
02:14:53,300 –> 02:14:57,145
my phone number for the, for the podcast. Thank you. Awesome. And

2139
02:14:57,145 –> 02:15:00,825
we will have a link to that site so you could fill out that

2140
02:15:00,825 –> 02:15:04,345
invitation request, and maybe you can join, this, this

2141
02:15:04,345 –> 02:15:08,050
global fourth, put on by Ellis Global and Peter Aimeli and his

2142
02:15:08,050 –> 02:15:11,810
team once every 5 weeks, once every 4 weeks or so. But

2143
02:15:11,810 –> 02:15:15,515
we’ll have that link right there in the show notes below the player

2144
02:15:15,575 –> 02:15:19,015
that you are listening to. And, of course, watching this

2145
02:15:19,015 –> 02:15:22,690
podcast on. We’ll also have links to all the places where you

2146
02:15:22,690 –> 02:15:26,310
could find Peter Angley, and LOS Global LOS Academy,

2147
02:15:26,770 –> 02:15:30,485
in the show notes as well. We’d encourage you to connect with him

2148
02:15:30,485 –> 02:15:34,085
on LinkedIn. He is on LinkedIn. He’s pushing out content on there as

2149
02:15:34,085 –> 02:15:37,765
well. And so like and share if you liked what we were talking

2150
02:15:37,765 –> 02:15:41,240
about today. Once again, I would like to thank Peter Ainley of

2151
02:15:41,240 –> 02:15:44,680
LOS Global for coming on the podcast today. And with

2152
02:15:44,680 –> 02:15:47,481
that, well, we’re

2153
02:15:50,981 –> 02:15:51,166
out.